I feel like a response to this deserves a thread of its own:
Quote from: whitey on November 16, 2016, 01:58:33 AM
One thing came up in conversation today that I hadn't even thought of before
Remember during the election we heard that Trump had all of his support coming from "non college educated white people".
How fvcking condescending can you get.....I know plenty of trades people over here.....electricians, diesel mechanics, HVAC guys .....who spend years at trade schools, learning trades and doing apprenticeships . They are just as smart and equally, if not more informed as many of the smarmy fvcks looking down their noses at them
I agree 100%
You know what I heard my teachers tell me in my day? "We want youse to go out and get good jobs. Not working outside in the rain as builders or labourers." Another one said "We want you to have a respectable job when you grow up. Not working out in the back yard lifting bricks." I always bristled when I heard that since my dad was a navvy in England when he met my mother, and later he was a breadman when I was growing up. My mother was a housewife until I was old enough to be left alone and she went back to work, first as a store detective and later going into factory work. When I heard teachers talking down to working class people like that I always felt that my own background was being insulted.
I have a handful of siblings, some of us went into professional work and others did not. All of us did well in life, IMHO. The ones that do manual work are as happy as any, and some of them are doing better financially than myself in a lot of ways, and fair play to them.
I have one friend who went to uni and ended up working in banking, but he says he feels out of place in it and he didn't really feel that university was for him. I have another friend who had no notion of going on to higher education, I think he did a HND and was happy to stop at that. Am I supposed to think any less of him?
University isn't for everybody. Software engineering, science, economics and the like are not for everybody, and the sooner we get that into our heads the better off we're going to be. Exposing all children to coding is all well and good, but we shouldn't expect everybody to want to go on to be a programmer. We still need people to build our houses, fix our cars, stack the shelves in the store, and serve us at the bar or cafe. I work in a tech company in Silicon Valley, and some of the people in there that I have the most respect for are the ones that work in the cafeteria. They get up early and work their asses off, and they do good work. You can tell they take pride in it.
I once had a boss who bragged about taking his son with him in the car one day. He parked across the street from a mechanic's garage and forced the young fella to watch these men at work all day. The lesson he was trying to teach his son was that that kind of work was beneath him, and he had to stick in at college if he was going to avoid lowering himself to that level. Bit harsh in my opinion. I once worked in a machine shop one summer and enjoyed the work. (The ones I had to work with, not so much, but the work itself had its own job satisfaction.) My old boss' son turned out to be a bit of an asshole, and I'd say that little mechanic lesson was probably a factor.
Now there's a whole generation of people brought up to believe that they're so special that manual work is beneath them. Hence you can't get an American to pick fruit out of the fields, only desperate immigrants will do it. How many films have you watched where the good guy prevails by escaping the drudgery of being an ordinary working man? An entire culture has developed where we don't value everybody's job, hence low-wage jobs are treated like a punishment for not being good enough at school. An American conservative once tried to argue with me that minimum-wage jobs "are not designed for people who want to have families." He thought that if you work 40+hours a week, you still don't deserve to earn enough money to get by on if the kind of work you're doing does not measure up in the prestige stakes.
What the hell's the matter with people now? What happened to a bit of respect for the ordinary working man and the dignity of the job?
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 16, 2016, 04:26:53 AM
I feel like a response to this deserves a thread of its own:
Quote from: whitey on November 16, 2016, 01:58:33 AM
One thing came up in conversation today that I hadn't even thought of before
Remember during the election we heard that Trump had all of his support coming from "non college educated white people".
How fvcking condescending can you get.....I know plenty of trades people over here.....electricians, diesel mechanics, HVAC guys .....who spend years at trade schools, learning trades and doing apprenticeships . They are just as smart and equally, if not more informed as many of the smarmy fvcks looking down their noses at them
I agree 100%
You know what I heard my teachers tell me in my day? "We want youse to go out and get good jobs. Not working outside in the rain as builders or labourers." Another one said "We want you to have a respectable job when you grow up. Not working out in the back yard lifting bricks." I always bristled when I heard that since my dad was a navvy in England when he met my mother, and later he was a breadman when I was growing up. My mother was a housewife until I was old enough to be left alone and she went back to work, first as a store detective and later going into factory work. When I heard teachers talking down to working class people like that I always felt that my own background was being insulted.
I have a handful of siblings, some of us went into professional work and others did not. All of us did well in life, IMHO. The ones that do manual work are as happy as any, and some of them are doing better financially than myself in a lot of ways, and fair play to them.
I have one friend who went to uni and ended up working in banking, but he says he feels out of place in it and he didn't really feel that university was for him. I have another friend who had no notion of going on to higher education, I think he did a HND and was happy to stop at that. Am I supposed to think any less of him?
University isn't for everybody. Software engineering, science, economics and the like are not for everybody, and the sooner we get that into our heads the better off we're going to be. Exposing all children to coding is all well and good, but we shouldn't expect everybody to want to go on to be a programmer. We still need people to build our houses, fix our cars, stack the shelves in the store, and serve us at the bar or cafe. I work in a tech company in Silicon Valley, and some of the people in there that I have the most respect for are the ones that work in the cafeteria. They get up early and work their asses off, and they do good work. You can tell they take pride in it.
I once had a boss who bragged about taking his son with him in the car one day. He parked across the street from a mechanic's garage and forced the young fella to watch these men at work all day. The lesson he was trying to teach his son was that that kind of work was beneath him, and he had to stick in at college if he was going to avoid lowering himself to that level. Bit harsh in my opinion. I once worked in a machine shop one summer and enjoyed the work. (The ones I had to work with, not so much, but the work itself had its own job satisfaction.) My old boss' son turned out to be a bit of an asshole, and I'd say that little mechanic lesson was probably a factor.
Now there's a whole generation of people brought up to believe that they're so special that manual work is beneath them. Hence you can't get an American to pick fruit out of the fields, only desperate immigrants will do it. How many films have you watched where the good guy prevails by escaping the drudgery of being an ordinary working man? An entire culture has developed where we don't value everybody's job, hence low-wage jobs are treated like a punishment for not being good enough at school. An American conservative once tried to argue with me that minimum-wage jobs "are not designed for people who want to have families." He thought that if you work 40+hours a week, you still don't deserve to earn enough money to get by on if the kind of work you're doing does not measure up in the prestige stakes.
What the hell's the matter with people now? What happened to a bit of respect for the ordinary working man and the dignity of the job?
Sad but true. Your value is measured in many quarters by the size of your bank account, not your contribution to the betterment of your community.
Sounds like a thread for people with complexes, if you like what you do and happy in your chosen profession why would you give a f**k what anyone thought.
Agree 100% with the opening post. I'd be delighted to to have a tradesman amongst my kids, with a bit of gumption there's a lot of opportunities, factor in the increasing costs of UK University and it seems a far more viable / practical option sometimes - especially if Uni was going to be a 3 yr party with a non specialised Humanities degree or the like.
The US and the UK/Ireland don't focus on training schemes and apprenticeships like the Continentals do. There is far more work pride in Germany and the work quality is better. If you look after people they will produce good work.
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2016, 08:54:36 AM
The US and the UK/Ireland don't focus on training schemes and apprenticeships like the Continentals do. There is far more work pride in Germany and the work quality is better. If you look after people they will produce good work.
I taught in various colleges around N.I for 12 years, apprenticeship programmes work fairly well, it's just a percentage of kids that get into it have a seriousl over inflated opinion on how much money they get and being told what to do!! A very good percentage end up becoming very good at their job and moving up the ladder within that company or on some occasions going out on their own and have made a good fist of self employment...
The Germans especially value their employees, pay them handsomely and so the work ethic and culture is something to be replicated. I've never worked in manufacturing here but something tells me it wouldn't be the same
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 16, 2016, 09:18:17 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2016, 08:54:36 AM
The US and the UK/Ireland don't focus on training schemes and apprenticeships like the Continentals do. There is far more work pride in Germany and the work quality is better. If you look after people they will produce good work.
I taught in various colleges around N.I for 12 years, apprenticeship programmes work fairly well, it's just a percentage of kids that get into it have a seriousl over inflated opinion on how much money they get and being told what to do!! A very good percentage end up becoming very good at their job and moving up the ladder within that company or on some occasions going out on their own and have made a good fist of self employment...
In the South self employed are discriminated against by the system. I think they don't qualify for unemployment money.
There are a lot of structural impediments that work against blue collar workers.
Middle class voters are more organised.
You would also wonder how much value accountants really produce these days....
The destruction of the working class has been a deliberate creation, my opinion is it really kicked of in the days of thatcher. This bullshit of there's room in the middle class for everyone and anyone working class is lazy, thick or just scum.
Being working class and proud of your trade because you are good at it is slipping away. This is in part because of the replacing of solid guild and trades with call centre and other robotic uninspiring work. There's a great book about this whole subject from a British perspective which I found fantastic called "Chavs: the demonisation of the working class" I can't recommend it enough.
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2016, 09:24:37 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 16, 2016, 09:18:17 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 16, 2016, 08:54:36 AM
The US and the UK/Ireland don't focus on training schemes and apprenticeships like the Continentals do. There is far more work pride in Germany and the work quality is better. If you look after people they will produce good work.
I taught in various colleges around N.I for 12 years, apprenticeship programmes work fairly well, it's just a percentage of kids that get into it have a seriousl over inflated opinion on how much money they get and being told what to do!! A very good percentage end up becoming very good at their job and moving up the ladder within that company or on some occasions going out on their own and have made a good fist of self employment...
In the South self employed are discriminated against by the system. I think they don't qualify for unemployment money.
There are a lot of structural impediments that work against blue collar workers.
Middle class voters are more organised.
You would also wonder how much value accountants really produce these days....
In the North (& I don't know if it's bad advice by Accountants / Govt Agencies or just trying to save a few bob) there are different types of stamp, if a self employed person signs on and they have only contributed to the basic stamp they are entitled to very little.
Last time I checked, it wasn't "blue-collar" workers that completely f**ked both the Irish and global economies with their smoke and mirrors bullsh!t.
In the current climate I don't think I would send my kids to University... the job I do now I could have been doing 10 years earlier without a University education!
The sooner you're in the workforce the less debt you have the more provision you have for a pension and the better equipped you will be for the more Senior Roles when they become available!
Quote from: screenexile on November 16, 2016, 12:12:08 PM
In the current climate I don't think I would send my kids to University... the job I do now I could have been doing 10 years earlier without a University education!
The sooner you're in the workforce the less debt you have the more provision you have for a pension and the better equipped you will be for the more Senior Roles when they become available!
Agree - my company is changing their strategy to try to bring on more trainee accountants straight from school - you start earning from day one and you don't become fully qualified any later (and sometimes earlier) than the equivalent who goes to university and starts into a training programme as a grad.
The thought of paying £7k a year for 7 or 8 hours of tuition a week is truly horrific.
I think it was Tony Baloney that told the story here before about the girl from Tyrone that worked in a solicitors in Belfast, with full blown Malone accent, started crying at a party because she was too ashamed to tell her colleagues that her Da was a digger driver
Plenty of work is crap and if robots do it, then the human race will be better off. But other people, be they builders or hairdressers are artisans and these should be well respected careers.
Quote from: omochain on November 16, 2016, 05:20:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 16, 2016, 04:26:53 AM
University isn't for everybody. Software engineering, science, economics and the like are not for everybody, and the sooner we get that into our heads the better off we're going to be. Exposing all children to coding is all well and good, but we shouldn't expect everybody to want to go on to be a programmer. We still need people to build our houses, fix our cars, stack the shelves in the store, and serve us at the bar or cafe. I work in a tech company in Silicon Valley, and some of the people in there that I have the most respect for are the ones that work in the cafeteria. They get up early and work their asses off, and they do good work. You can tell they take pride in it.
I once had a boss who bragged about taking his son with him in the car one day. He parked across the street from a mechanic's garage and forced the young fella to watch these men at work all day. The lesson he was trying to teach his son was that that kind of work was beneath him, and he had to stick in at college if he was going to avoid lowering himself to that level. Bit harsh in my opinion. I once worked in a machine shop one summer and enjoyed the work. (The ones I had to work with, not so much, but the work itself had its own job satisfaction.) My old boss' son turned out to be a bit of an asshole, and I'd say that little mechanic lesson was probably a factor.
Sad but true. Your value is measured in many quarters by the size of your bank account, not your contribution to the betterment of your community.
Slightly off topic, one school is alleged to have used a picture like this
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tnHxySWaGn8/V1_bZt6-t0I/AAAAAAAAVeQ/hYGl47qJL-44JgK8X_KMGkJsrGjh2UmQgCLcB/s320/old%2Bman%2Bwith%2Byoung%2Bgirl%2Bplay%2Bboy%2Baged.jpg)
and told the boys that this would be them if they went to University and told the girls that this would be them if they didn't go to university!
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 16, 2016, 11:26:29 AM
Last time I checked, it wasn't "blue-collar" workers that completely f**ked both the Irish and global economies with their smoke and mirrors bullsh!t.
Them and builders
[/quote]
Sad but true. Your value is measured in many quarters by the size of your bank account, not your contribution to the betterment of your community.
[/quote]
In this life, one thing counts.
In the bank, large amounts.
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 16, 2016, 01:29:39 PM
Them and builders
Kinda yes, kinda no. Builders were building to demand - many got very greedy. But at least they were actually doing something -
Bankers were "re-packaging" (which is a euphemism for lying and hiding the true nature of) loans on sh!te to send off to some other guy to take the hit on. They were too stupid to realise what they were sending off down the road was coming back to them a few months later and they were drooling over the "investment opportunities" with €€ signs in their eyes.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 16, 2016, 02:00:10 PM
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 16, 2016, 01:29:39 PM
Them and builders
Kinda yes, kinda no. Builders were building to demand - many got very greedy. But at least they were actually doing something -
Bankers were "re-packaging" (which is a euphemism for lying and hiding the true nature of) loans on sh!te to send off to some other guy to take the hit on. They were too stupid to realise what they were sending off down the road was coming back to them a few months later and they were drooling over the "investment opportunities" with €€ signs in their eyes.
Most bankers were just doing their job- many got very greedy. Loans were being provided to demand also.
Point being greed is not a "class" issue, its a human one.
Quote from: TheOptimist on November 16, 2016, 03:02:28 PM
Most bankers were just doing their job- many got very greedy. Loans were being provided to demand also.
Point being greed is not a "class" issue, its a human one.
Indeed, many "blue collar" individuals borrowed money from these bankers without any clear prospect of being able to pay it back.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/16/universities-accused-of-importing-sports-direct-model-for-lecturers-pay?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2 (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/nov/16/universities-accused-of-importing-sports-direct-model-for-lecturers-pay?CMP=oth_b-aplnews_d-2)
Quote from: screenexile on November 16, 2016, 12:12:08 PM
In the current climate I don't think I would send my kids to University... the job I do now I could have been doing 10 years earlier without a University education!
The sooner you're in the workforce the less debt you have the more provision you have for a pension and the better equipped you will be for the more Senior Roles when they become available!
So I'm nearing this with my oldest girl, her hopes are to go to university get degree and better job, wife wants her to do that I'm two minds as to it being better or worse for them. It won't be my choice or wife's unfortunately they will make that based on results ...
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 16, 2016, 05:32:39 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 16, 2016, 12:12:08 PM
In the current climate I don't think I would send my kids to University... the job I do now I could have been doing 10 years earlier without a University education!
The sooner you're in the workforce the less debt you have the more provision you have for a pension and the better equipped you will be for the more Senior Roles when they become available!
So I'm nearing this with my oldest girl, her hopes are to go to university get degree and better job, wife wants her to do that I'm two minds as to it being better or worse for them. It won't be my choice or wife's unfortunately they will make that based on results ...
Education gives you options. The more options the better.
Degrees though in my opinion should be those that are a clear step in a career path as opposed to one where you're coming out wondering what do I do now.
I worked night shifts in a factory as a young fella. Gave me the drive to not end up doing that. And that is not an offense to anybody, I personally just couldn't possibly do that all my life and be happy at the same time.
Software development medicine. And accountancy are the top 3. Wage earners from a degree level education
There are good alternatives however in higher level apprenticeships...learning on the job ..salary etc.
Companies like kainos in belfast. Pay their young people degree fees in software development.
There is a worldwide shortage of software developers
They can go anywhere with it
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 16, 2016, 05:32:39 PM
Quote from: screenexile on November 16, 2016, 12:12:08 PM
In the current climate I don't think I would send my kids to University... the job I do now I could have been doing 10 years earlier without a University education!
The sooner you're in the workforce the less debt you have the more provision you have for a pension and the better equipped you will be for the more Senior Roles when they become available!
So I'm nearing this with my oldest girl, her hopes are to go to university get degree and better job, wife wants her to do that I'm two minds as to it being better or worse for them. It won't be my choice or wife's unfortunately they will make that based on results ...
There's an NI Civil Service ICT Apprenticeship available now, applications close soon.
The highest graduate wages are those leaving the geology degree from ICL. £73k on average 6 months from graduation. Not too shabby.
My friends daughter just got accepted by PWC for a trainee graduate programme straight from school, she starts in September, apparently a very difficult process to get picked but she did well, all fees and degree paid for (providing she passes)
As for trades, plastics/carbon fibre engineering is well paid Bombardier pay very well with lots of options within the aerospace industry, the oil rigs still a great paying job and a specialist field...
Having personally went through apprenticeship program going on to actually teach lads like myself I can see the benefits of that pathway, no debt (until I got married) though in fairness my wife's student loan was very small when she completed her degree 23 years ago!!
A few of the guys that started out with me have their own successful engineering businesses, they've worked very hard to do it and continue to get more business, so in life to do well regardless of exams is to have a work ethic, and take a chance when it presents itself!
Personally think nowadays it is nearly mandatory to have a qualification or a trade. Be it teacher, accountant, plumber , electrician whatever.
Everything nowadays needs to be "signed off" and this is where qualifications are vital.
Is the only purpose of education to get a job and career?
Its certainly how I looked at it at the time and how alot of you appear to look at it, but now I wish I had a different attitude at the time. In fact when the weans are a bit older Ive been thinking about doing another degree completely for the hell of it.
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 16, 2016, 09:14:44 PM
Is the only purpose of education to get a job and career?
Its certainly how I looked at it at the time and how alot of you appear to look at it, but now I wish I had a different attitude at the time. In fact when the weans are a bit older Ive been thinking about doing another degree completely for the hell of it.
Id say initially it would be, would always wanted to learn French or Spainish when i've more time on my hands
Quote from: omaghjoe on November 16, 2016, 09:14:44 PM
Is the only purpose of education to get a job and career?
Its certainly how I looked at it at the time and how alot of you appear to look at it, but now I wish I had a different attitude at the time. In fact when the weans are a bit older Ive been thinking about doing another degree completely for the hell of it.
In general schools are there to coach kids to pass exams within the narrow confines of the national curriculum. There probably isn't the time any more to provide a proper rounded education unless you're a boarder at a top grammar school.
Who wants to narrow down their life choices to becoming an accountant?
Quote
There's an NI Civil Service ICT Apprenticeship available now, applications close soon.
The NICS welcome applications from individuals no private sector employers would have over the door.... 8)
Quote from: delgany on November 16, 2016, 05:47:13 PM
Software development medicine. And accountancy are the top 3. Wage earners from a degree level education
There are good alternatives however in higher level apprenticeships...learning on the job ..salary etc.
Companies like kainos in belfast. Pay their young people degree fees in software development.
There is a worldwide shortage of software developers
They can go anywhere with it
Kainos (and a few other software companies in Belfast I think) and UU are offering a part time degree route straight from school. Numbers are limited but huge savings for the student on the full time route. The student works 4 days a week in the company and gets a day release to go to UU for their studies. The PT route is 4 and a half years (includes summer study) as opposed to the 4 year FT route. It's a bit of a no brainer if you can get one of the places in the software company as they pay your fees (rather than the £4k a year for FT) and you've a decent salary for an 18 year old straight out of school.
The thing is, most 18 year olds who want to go to university want to go the FT route. The cost means nothing to them because they don't have to start paying it back for the forseeable future
Not sure what the future holds for universities. Will be almost 20 years till mine are at that age but I'm really not sure it is worth the investment at all, particularly with platforms like Udacity for online learning where companies are starting to create specific curriculums relative to what they are looking for in an employee because those coming from uni are ill-equipped.
Technologies like VR and AR will probably come into play where you can do these and traditional courses from comfort of your bedroom at fraction of the cost. You'd lose out on the social side of things this way which is important to an extent but not sure I'll feel like paying £10k a year or whatever the hell it may be so the kids can go and get pissed 3 times a week.
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 11:42:28 AM
Not sure what the future holds for universities. Will be almost 20 years till mine are at that age but I'm really not sure it is worth the investment at all, particularly with platforms like Udacity for online learning where companies are starting to create specific curriculums relative to what they are looking for in an employee because those coming from uni are ill-equipped.
Technologies like VR and AR will probably come into play where you can do these and traditional courses from comfort of your bedroom at fraction of the cost. You'd lose out on the social side of things this way which is important to an extent but not sure I'll feel like paying £10k a year or whatever the hell it may be so the kids can go and get pissed 3 times a week.
My course was a joke... Management and Information Systems (There was also a different course Business Information Technology which was basically the same). Half wishy washy business studies and half wishy washy IT where we did a bit of VB programming and a few access databases!!
It was pushed really hard by the careers adviser in my school (13 from my school were in my Course and only 5 of us graduated) and it sounded computery and businessy so was presumed good but most of the class went on to be accountants and I'm in sales... .along with that the course was 9 hours a week for 3 years!!
If I were to send any of my kids to University it would be for a vocational course, physio, speech therapy, engineering but I think the days of 9 hour a week courses & generic business degrees will disappear soon enough because they prepare students for absolutely nothing!!
PS. I've just noticed my course isn't even offered in Queens anymore!!
Quote from: screenexile on November 17, 2016, 12:24:57 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 11:42:28 AM
Not sure what the future holds for universities. Will be almost 20 years till mine are at that age but I'm really not sure it is worth the investment at all, particularly with platforms like Udacity for online learning where companies are starting to create specific curriculums relative to what they are looking for in an employee because those coming from uni are ill-equipped.
Technologies like VR and AR will probably come into play where you can do these and traditional courses from comfort of your bedroom at fraction of the cost. You'd lose out on the social side of things this way which is important to an extent but not sure I'll feel like paying £10k a year or whatever the hell it may be so the kids can go and get pissed 3 times a week.
My course was a joke... Management and Information Systems (There was also a different course Business Information Technology which was basically the same). Half wishy washy business studies and half wishy washy IT where we did a bit of VB programming and a few access databases!!
It was pushed really hard by the careers adviser in my school (13 from my school were in my Course and only 5 of us graduated) and it sounded computery and businessy so was presumed good but most of the class went on to be accountants and I'm in sales... .along with that the course was 9 hours a week for 3 years!!
If I were to send any of my kids to University it would be for a vocational course, physio, speech therapy, engineering but I think the days of 9 hour a week courses & generic business degrees will disappear soon enough because they prepare students for absolutely nothing!!
PS. I've just noticed my course isn't even offered in Queens anymore!!
I did Business with Spanish. About 10-12 hours a week in DCU and then when in Madrid was up to about 25-30 hours a week (not sure the additional hours actually ended up teaching me any more but at least seemed to be taken a bit more seriously). Did two different internships and got a language out of it so all in all made me more employable and I can't complain. Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
Agree with you, think people these days need to be going into university knowing what they want to do and knowing there are jobs in that field at the end of it. With the current pace of technological change a lot of stuff like accountancy could well be redundant and God help anyone doing wishy washy stuff in 20 years.
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 01:51:39 PM
Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
I'd strenuously disagree with that. I work in an international business and having a second language would be hugely beneficial to me when I am negotiating / discussing with customers.
Getting the conversation translated really stunts the negotiations, hinders the process and you lose so much nuance when you can't converse directly with the customer.
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 11:42:28 AM
Not sure what the future holds for universities. Will be almost 20 years till mine are at that age but I'm really not sure it is worth the investment at all, particularly with platforms like Udacity for online learning where companies are starting to create specific curriculums relative to what they are looking for in an employee because those coming from uni are ill-equipped.
Technologies like VR and AR will probably come into play where you can do these and traditional courses from comfort of your bedroom at fraction of the cost. You'd lose out on the social side of things this way which is important to an extent but not sure I'll feel like paying £10k a year or whatever the hell it may be so the kids can go and get pissed 3 times a week.
Are they twinkles in your eye, you can start uni at 18!
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 17, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 01:51:39 PM
Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
I'd strenuously disagree with that. I work in an international business and having a second language would be hugely beneficial to me when I am negotiating / discussing with customers.
Getting the conversation translated really stunts the negotiations, hinders the process and you lose so much nuance when you can't converse directly with the customer.
Right now I agree with you but in 20 years time i'd say it will almost be a seamless experience where I can speak English and a Chinese guy can understand me via some earpiece and vice versa. Being able to speak it would still be preferable but it won't be as advantageous as it is now
Quote from: delgany on November 16, 2016, 05:47:13 PM
Software development medicine. And accountancy are the top 3. Wage earners from a degree level education
Be wary of doing accountancy unless they are gonna be top 5% in their class and have routes to a partnership through relations. Maybe even then.
Accountancy is one of the jobs largely go the way of the dodo with ever improving software and automation.
Quote from: RadioGAAGAA on November 17, 2016, 03:39:47 PM
Accountancy is one of the jobs largely go the way of the dodo with ever improving software and automation.
My experiences have taught me that accountancy tends mostly to being a step on the path to getting a commercial role in a company. And I don't see software taking over the commercial / strategic roles.
Granted, there will be a handful of accountants who literally just crunch numbers all day who may be impacted. But, speaking as someone whose qualification is accountancy, that would just be a small number of people who start life in the role.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 16, 2016, 01:05:33 PM
Plenty of work is crap and if robots do it, then the human race will be better off. But other people, be they builders or hairdressers are artisans and these should be well respected careers.
Quote from: omochain on November 16, 2016, 05:20:15 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 16, 2016, 04:26:53 AM
University isn't for everybody. Software engineering, science, economics and the like are not for everybody, and the sooner we get that into our heads the better off we're going to be. Exposing all children to coding is all well and good, but we shouldn't expect everybody to want to go on to be a programmer. We still need people to build our houses, fix our cars, stack the shelves in the store, and serve us at the bar or cafe. I work in a tech company in Silicon Valley, and some of the people in there that I have the most respect for are the ones that work in the cafeteria. They get up early and work their asses off, and they do good work. You can tell they take pride in it.
I once had a boss who bragged about taking his son with him in the car one day. He parked across the street from a mechanic's garage and forced the young fella to watch these men at work all day. The lesson he was trying to teach his son was that that kind of work was beneath him, and he had to stick in at college if he was going to avoid lowering himself to that level. Bit harsh in my opinion. I once worked in a machine shop one summer and enjoyed the work. (The ones I had to work with, not so much, but the work itself had its own job satisfaction.) My old boss' son turned out to be a bit of an asshole, and I'd say that little mechanic lesson was probably a factor.
Sad but true. Your value is measured in many quarters by the size of your bank account, not your contribution to the betterment of your community.
Slightly off topic, one school is alleged to have used a picture like this
(https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-tnHxySWaGn8/V1_bZt6-t0I/AAAAAAAAVeQ/hYGl47qJL-44JgK8X_KMGkJsrGjh2UmQgCLcB/s320/old%2Bman%2Bwith%2Byoung%2Bgirl%2Bplay%2Bboy%2Baged.jpg)
and told the boys that this would be them if they went to University and told the girls that this would be them if they didn't go to university!
;D
I like it!
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 11:42:28 AM
You'd lose out on the social side of things this way which is important to an extent but not sure I'll feel like paying £10k a year or whatever the hell it may be so the kids can go and get pissed 3 times a week.
To be fair, there is a benefit to going to university for full time courses, especially if you go across the water and / or it's a reasonably diverse place. You get exposed to a lot of new ideas and new ways of thinking, so the social aspect is hugely important from the point of view of maturing as a person.
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 01:51:39 PM
Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
If you can speak a language like Spanish fluently then it opens up a huge swathe of the world to you. Instead of working in the Anglosphere you have the option of moving to Spain or (most of) South America. Could be a while yet before some Babelfish device lets you go anywhere without learning the lingo.
Quote from: screenexile on November 17, 2016, 12:24:57 PM
My course was a joke... Management and Information Systems (There was also a different course Business Information Technology which was basically the same). Half wishy washy business studies and half wishy washy IT where we did a bit of VB programming and a few access databases!!
It was pushed really hard by the careers adviser in my school (13 from my school were in my Course and only 5 of us graduated) and it sounded computery and businessy so was presumed good but most of the class went on to be accountants and I'm in sales... .along with that the course was 9 hours a week for 3 years!!
If I were to send any of my kids to University it would be for a vocational course, physio, speech therapy, engineering but I think the days of 9 hour a week courses & generic business degrees will disappear soon enough because they prepare students for absolutely nothing!!
PS. I've just noticed my course isn't even offered in Queens anymore!!
Mine wasn't too bad. 1st two years was a HND, the 2nd two years was a BEng degree in Manufacturing Engineering. The HND bit was disappointing, I had to work harder for my BTEC National Diploma at Lurgan Tech than I did for the HND. The proper degree course put me through my paces though, it was tough going and was a great experience.
I saw this elsewhere.
It illustrates the expansion of graduate type jobs in Ireland. It also says something about the UK which has seen more low skill jobs and less high skill jobs than Ireland, perhaps informing the Brexit debate.
Of course some of this may be that there are now more graduates and so some jobs that didn't need a degree now do, without any real change in the job.
(http://static2.uk.businessinsider.com/image/58273c31dd089545398b4947-865/screen%20shot%202016-11-11%20at%201.00.50%20pm.png)
Just a thought, is there such a thing as a job that is not respectful?
I am stocking shelves and doing manual labor for the first time in my life and I tell you what, I am enjoying the exercise.
Quote from: stew on November 18, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
Just a thought, is there such a thing as a job that is not respectful?
I am stocking shelves and doing manual labor for the first time in my life and I tell you what, I am enjoying the exercise.
I'd stock shelves in a heartbeat if I could afford to live off it. No stress, no worries to bring home, immediate satisfaction of a job completed.
As for the general point about a job being respectable, I think it all depends on the person occupying the job.
An immigrant from a poor country, with no education, working 70 hours a week on minimum wage would be seen as a hard-working person trying to get ahead, or at least would be by any non-prejudiced arsehole. Similarly, a 15 year old working a few hours on Saturday to make some pocket money.
I worked fast food, washed dishes, sold xmas trees, did clerical work and did other types of crappy jobs to keep myself going through college. Even had to do low wage work for a while after I moved back to the US before I got myself a decent job. I got patronized and talked down to many times. Of course, its amazing how quickly people's attitudes change when they find out that you're also working towards an advanced education.
Quote from: stew on November 18, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
Just a thought, is there such a thing as a job that is not respectful?
I am stocking shelves and doing manual labor for the first time in my life and I tell you what, I am enjoying the exercise.
Personally it means nothing to me what a person works at in life... I've come across stupid people doing degree/Masters level jobs and extremely intelligent people brushing floors/labouring!!!
A persons job wouldn't be a barometer for respect in my opinion.
Quote from: screenexile on November 18, 2016, 08:52:32 PM
Quote from: stew on November 18, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
Just a thought, is there such a thing as a job that is not respectful?
I am stocking shelves and doing manual labor for the first time in my life and I tell you what, I am enjoying the exercise.
Personally it means nothing to me what a person works at in life... I've come across stupid people doing degree/Masters level jobs and extremely intelligent people brushing floors/labouring!!!
A persons job wouldn't be a barometer for respect in my opinion.
Spot on. Our place is coming down with PhD educated employees and some of them would be doing well to get their laces tied in the morning.
Quote from: stew on November 18, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
Just a thought, is there such a thing as a job that is not respectful?
I am stocking shelves and doing manual labor for the first time in my life and I tell you what, I am enjoying the exercise.
I did that for a summer in the States years ago.
Some of colleagues complimented me on my english. :D
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 17, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 01:51:39 PM
Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
I'd strenuously disagree with that. I work in an international business and having a second language would be hugely beneficial to me when I am negotiating / discussing with customers.
Getting the conversation translated really stunts the negotiations, hinders the process and you lose so much nuance when you can't converse directly with the customer.
Right now I agree with you but in 20 years time i'd say it will almost be a seamless experience where I can speak English and a Chinese guy can understand me via some earpiece and vice versa. Being able to speak it would still be preferable but it won't be as advantageous as it is now
Balls. How the on earth will speaking into a machine in a "can't be bothered learning any words in your language" attitude ever build a relationships on any business level? Useful for lazy holidaymakers and that's about it.
Quote from: screenexile on November 18, 2016, 08:52:32 PM
Quote from: stew on November 18, 2016, 06:36:51 PM
Just a thought, is there such a thing as a job that is not respectful?
I am stocking shelves and doing manual labor for the first time in my life and I tell you what, I am enjoying the exercise.
Personally it means nothing to me what a person works at in life... I've come across stupid people doing degree/Masters level jobs and extremely intelligent people brushing floors/labouring!!!
A persons job wouldn't be a barometer for respect in my opinion.
However... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tvp97SMZc6M)
If you find you are reduced to deriding someone for the job they do, then you lost the argument a long time ago.
There is dignity in all work. Apart from working for hatemongers
It's not a competition
Johan Cruyff :
"It's like everything in football – and life. You need to look, you need to think, you need to move, you need to find space, you need to help others. It's very simple in the end."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GtwCfjI0Z8
Quote from: StGallsGAA on November 18, 2016, 11:09:07 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 17, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 01:51:39 PM
Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
I'd strenuously disagree with that. I work in an international business and having a second language would be hugely beneficial to me when I am negotiating / discussing with customers.
Getting the conversation translated really stunts the negotiations, hinders the process and you lose so much nuance when you can't converse directly with the customer.
Right now I agree with you but in 20 years time i'd say it will almost be a seamless experience where I can speak English and a Chinese guy can understand me via some earpiece and vice versa. Being able to speak it would still be preferable but it won't be as advantageous as it is now
Balls. How the on earth will speaking into a machine in a "can't be bothered learning any words in your language" attitude ever build a relationships on any business level? Useful for lazy holidaymakers and that's about it.
I said it won't be as advantageous as it is now, i.e on a relative basis. It will still be advantageous. If you think that it won't be less of an advantage then we'll just to have to agree to disagree.
Maybe not in 20 years time but perhaps 50, I'd say that inserting chips into the brain some way might do away with the advantage altogether. And if you think that is balls, then just think that some of the stuff they are doing these days was science fiction not so long ago.
Quote from: muppet on November 19, 2016, 11:53:09 AM
If you find you are reduced to deriding someone for the job they do, then you lost the argument a long time ago.
With exceptions, the majority of recruitment consultants and estate agents.
Quote from: CiKe on November 19, 2016, 01:29:26 PM
Quote from: StGallsGAA on November 18, 2016, 11:09:07 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 03:29:39 PM
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 17, 2016, 02:32:48 PM
Quote from: CiKe on November 17, 2016, 01:51:39 PM
Better than an ordinary business only degree in my view but still don't think will be hugely beneficial to anyone in 20 years time (even learning languages while beneficial on personal level will probably be redundant with automated translation and interpretation).
I'd strenuously disagree with that. I work in an international business and having a second language would be hugely beneficial to me when I am negotiating / discussing with customers.
Getting the conversation translated really stunts the negotiations, hinders the process and you lose so much nuance when you can't converse directly with the customer.
Right now I agree with you but in 20 years time i'd say it will almost be a seamless experience where I can speak English and a Chinese guy can understand me via some earpiece and vice versa. Being able to speak it would still be preferable but it won't be as advantageous as it is now
Balls. How the on earth will speaking into a machine in a "can't be bothered learning any words in your language" attitude ever build a relationships on any business level? Useful for lazy holidaymakers and that's about it.
I said it won't be as advantageous as it is now, i.e on a relative basis. It will still be advantageous. If you think that it won't be less of an advantage then we'll just to have to agree to disagree.
Maybe not in 20 years time but perhaps 50, I'd say that inserting chips into the brain some way might do away with the advantage altogether. And if you think that is balls, then just think that some of the stuff they are doing these days was science fiction not so long ago.
First steps along the way already well in motion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjjQ5cH_YzI
Skype also already has something in 8 languages.
I'm sure the quality won't be 100% just yet, but will no doubt be perfect within a few years.