OK, this is inspired by a sidebar conversation on the Man Utd thread, but in fairness to the lads there, it really is a different topic. It is spawned by this phrase 'World Class', and what exactly that means. Is world class really just two or three players, who are basically the Ballon D'Or winners every year? Is it mainly confined to strikers and attacking midfielders? What constitutes 'World Class'.
So I want to see if we can arrive at a consensus of sorts. Imagine there is an Inter Galactic tournament in soccer, and we have to pick (after trials in Thurles) a squad of 23 that would compete in this. We have to select at least 2 goalies, and then fill the remaining 21 slots with a viable 'World Class' squad that can kick the Uranus off Mars. When you are nominating a player, indicate whether he is a Goalie, Defender, Defensive Midfielder, Midfielder, Attacking Midfielder, Attacker.
Enough of the loose talk, lets define world class. And then when Liverpool sign 4 of them, we can all say, Liverpool have World Class players :)
Some nominations off the top of my head.
Goalies:
Manuel Neuer, Bayern & Germany
David De Gea, Man United and Spain
Forwards :
Luis Suarez, Barcelona & Uruguay
Lionel Messi, Barcelona & Argentina
Cristiano Ronaldo, Real Madrid & Portugal
It really doesn't matter what 'world class' means as long as people are using the term to mean the same thing.
It seems like 99% of the debates on here are due to miscommunication and people talking at cross purposes.
Quote from: Clov on February 02, 2016, 01:57:54 PM
It really doesn't matter what 'world class' means as long as people are using the term to mean the same thing.
It seems like 99% of the debates on here are due to miscommunication and people talking at cross purposes.
Not just here, everywhere. You often hear people saying such and such is 'World Class', but by what measure?
In the Premiership:
De Gea
Kompany
Silva
Augero
Courtois
Costa
Cech
Ozil
Sanchez
Thats it for me!
Quote from: Walter Cronc on February 02, 2016, 02:04:53 PM
In the Premiership:
De Gea
Kompany
Silva
Augero
Courtois
Costa
Cech
Ozil
Sanchez
Thats it for me!
Pretty much agree with most of these...
Arsenal would want to win something of merit (other than the FA cup) and soon...
To answer your question, I think a workable definition is players that are among the very best* at their position globally.
* i.e. in the top half-dozen.
Apart from the odd Liverpool game I don't watch enough football to make an informed judgment on it, but i would have thought there is probably no one at Liverpool who qualify and may be only De Gea at united.
http://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2015/dec/21/the-100-best-footballers-in-the-world-2015-interactive (http://www.theguardian.com/football/ng-interactive/2015/dec/21/the-100-best-footballers-in-the-world-2015-interactive)
This is an interesting list.
To me I have always though of world class as a player who would get on most teams in the world.
Liverpool have no one at the moment, the most recent one being Suarez, and the Liverpool side of a few years ago you could make the case for Gerrard, Torres, Masharano & Alonso all from that team.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on February 02, 2016, 02:04:53 PM
In the Premiership:
De Gea
Kompany
Silva
Augero
Courtois
Costa
Cech
Ozil
Sanchez
Thats it for me!
We won't get concensus because we all will have different views.... For me I wouldn't have Costa on that list and while still a really good keeper I don't think Cech ever hit the same heights post the Stephen Hunt incident. Hazard would have been on everyones list last year but one indifferent year and he's not there
Funny Boycey those 3 players you listed all were is he/isn't he.
Cant think of any others in the PL at that level.
Personally I would rate Augero as the best in the league.
Peter Crouch 22 other millionaires who don't give a flying f**k about "their" club or "their" fans, all chasing the green.
Wtf you on about??
Yeah, but World Class, by my definition, would have to be rated alongside the best players from La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga etc etc. Like is Paul Pogba World Class? Some people say yes, some say no. So would he get in this putative World Squad? If not, who would keep him out?
If I take my list, and the others so far, our contenders so far are
Goalies
De Gea Man United/Spain
Neuer Bayern Munich/Germany
Courtois Chelsea/Belgium
Cech Arsenal/Czech REpublic
Full Backs
Jordi Alba Barcelona/Spain
Centre Halves
Kompany Man City/Belgium
Thiago Silva PSG/Brazil
Defensive Midfielders
Phillip Lahm Bayern/Germany *** Put him in here rather than full back, could be either.
Midfielders
Attacking Midfielders
Ozil ARsenal/Germany
Attackers
Silva Man City/Spain
Augero Man City/Argentina
Suarez Barcelona/Uruguay
Messi Barcelona/Argentina
Ronaldo Real Madrid/Portugal
Costa Chelsea/Spain
Sanchez Arsenal/Chile
Any others? I think the variance in what is considered is world class is interesting (I note Clov's definition). But in my hypothetical scenario, even in the above list, I couldn't see Silva or Costa making it, and I think Sanchez would be on the bubble. What about Lewendowski? Robben? Then where are all the world class Defenders and Defensive Midfielders? I know Kompany is there, but to be honest, if he is in the top 4 centre halves (assume we'll take 4 centre halves and 4 full backs), then I think that points to a relatively low standard of centre halves.
Thiago Silva
Philip Lahm
Jordi Alba
Is Kompany really world class? He's a brilliant captain and leader but his performances for City & Belgium haven't been world class since City's 1st league title in 2012. Diego Costa is a very good player but he's not world class, the likes of Benzema & Cavani are better players then him and even Harry Kane.
There's certainly a dearth of world class central defenders the last 5 years. Look back 5 years when the league had Terry, Rio, Kompany & Vidic. There's not a defender in the Premier league at this level and very few around the world either.
I don't think there's a problem with understanding "world class". It's the distinction between "world class" and "best players in the world" that creates the confusion.
When fully fit I believe so MM.
David Alaba is certainly on that list.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on February 02, 2016, 02:47:23 PM
When fully fit I believe so MM.
David Alaba is certainly on that list.
Alaba is a certainty, best left back in world football by a distance.
Will agree to disagree about Kompany, even in the world cup he would make one huge error every game.
Quote from: gallsman on February 02, 2016, 02:46:18 PM
I don't think there's a problem with understanding "world class". It's the distinction between "world class" and "best players in the world" that creates the confusion.
OK, so define it for me, and what is the distinction between the two phrases you mention? I presume Best Players in the World is essentially the Ballon D'Or. So how do you define World Class?
I suppose when fully fit, so is sturridge :-\
Goalies
De Gea Man United/Spain
Neuer Bayern Munich/Germany
Courtois Chelsea/Belgium
Cech Arsenal/Czech REpublic
Full Backs
Jordi Alba Barcelona/Spain
Centre Halves
Kompany Man City/Belgium
Thiago Silva PSG/Brazil
Defensive Midfielders
Phillip Lahm Bayern/Germany *** Put him in here rather than full back, could be either.
Midfielders
Attacking Midfielders
Ozil Arsenal/Germany
Muller Munich/Germany
Reus Dortmund/Germany
Attackers
Silva Man City/Spain
Augero Man City/Argentina
Suarez Barcelona/Uruguay
Messi Barcelona/Argentina
Ronaldo Real Madrid/Portugal
Costa Chelsea/Spain
Sanchez Arsenal/Chile
Aubameyang Dortmund/Gabon
Agree with gallsman point though
Messi, Ronaldo, Suarez, Neymar, Augero, Neuer, De Gea and Alaba would be my standouts
Ah no, I don't think Sturridge falls into that category. Certainly he wouldn't make my squad, nor would he make the top 6 strikers definition that Clov uses. In my opinion anyway. However, I have heard that said before, which is part of my curiousity about this subject. Maybe I'm a pedant, but it seems to me that World Class is used as a euphemism for 'Very Good'.
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 02:53:53 PM
Ah no, I don't think Sturridge falls into that category. Certainly he wouldn't make my squad, nor would he make the top 6 strikers definition that Clov uses. In my opinion anyway. However, I have heard that said before, which is part of my curiousity about this subject. Maybe I'm a pedant, but it seems to me that World Class is used as a euphemism for 'Very Good'.
I agree with you in a way, but if Costa is making these World class lists, then I would have a fit Sturridge ahead of him.
The whole thing is very subjective, as shown by that list put together by the Guardian.
It has players like Jamie Vardy and Salah on it :-\
Quote from: Boycey on February 02, 2016, 02:23:58 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on February 02, 2016, 02:04:53 PM
In the Premiership:
De Gea
Kompany
Silva
Augero
Courtois
Costa
Cech
Ozil
Sanchez
Thats it for me!
We won't get concensus because we all will have different views.... For me I wouldn't have Costa on that list and while still a really good keeper I don't think Cech ever hit the same heights post the Stephen Hunt incident. Hazard would have been on everyones list last year but one indifferent year and he's not there
I would add the below to your list:
Lloris
Martial
Coutinho
Hazard
Willian
Sturridge
Hard to define surely but i like to think of it along the lines of AZ's original post where if picking a squad who'd be in it.
I'd have Aguero and De Gea and perhaps Ozil from the Premiership as World class but other than that i don't think i'd pick any although Hazard a season ago would probably be there too.
From La Liga you've of course Messi,Ronaldo,Neymar and Suarez and i'd personally have the likes of Iniesta in there even if he is getting on a bit and Busquets in as a holding midfielder but he causes plenty of debate amongst some . Then there's players like Griezmann seemingly improving every week and when does it go from just being in a rich vein of form to being world class?
In Germany depending on what month you pick it you could have almost any member of the Munich squad in there and Dortmund have players like Reus, Aubameyang and Hummels would be considered World class on their day.
Then from Italy and France you've players like Zlatan,Thiago Silva,Verratti,Pogba and Marchisio.
In truth i'd say it'll change from person to person as a year progresses and i'd say sometimes the less you see of players the better they become in your mind, for example i'd see Marchisio 5 or 6 times a year at most and i always think he looks brilliant but if he was playing in the Premiership or La Liga which i watch both most weeks i mightn't think he's particularly good.
When you think of it like that, an end of season tournament between all the top leagues would be interesting! You would imagine the La Liga XI and Bundasliga XI would be much to strong for the PL XI.
I wouldn't be sure that Italy and France wouldn't be ahead as well!
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on February 02, 2016, 04:14:23 PM
When you think of it like that, an end of season tournament between all the top leagues would be interesting! You would imagine the La Liga XI and Bundasliga XI would be much to strong for the PL XI.
I wouldn't be sure that Italy and France wouldn't be ahead as well!
I remember the English league used to play the Italian league, think it was early 90's...be interesting to see something like this now.
Pogba is a definite and missing from most lists
1. De Gea
2. Neuer
3. Oblak
4. Carvajal
5. Marcelo
6. Alaba
7. Godin
8. Varane
9. Alderweireld
10. Iniesta
11. Busquets
12. Mascherano
13. Modric
14. Rakitic
15. Sanchez
16. Robben
17. Hazard
18. Bale
19. Ronaldo
20. Messi
21. Suarez
22. Aguero
23. Neymar
Quote from: AZOffaly on February 02, 2016, 02:50:48 PM
Quote from: gallsman on February 02, 2016, 02:46:18 PM
I don't think there's a problem with understanding "world class". It's the distinction between "world class" and "best players in the world" that creates the confusion.
OK, so define it for me, and what is the distinction between the two phrases you mention? I presume Best Players in the World is essentially the Ballon D'Or. So how do you define World Class?
Have put myself on the spot here!
Someone earlier made a face about Jamie Vardy being on the list. I don't understand that. He's banging goals in in one of the top leagues on the planet, and with an unfashionable team that is far, far greater than the sum of its individual parts at that, which to me, certainly at the minute, makes him "world class". That doesn't mean he's one of the best players in the world though. I'd say the same for Kompany after his injuries and form issues.
At the same time, it's not just the lads at the Ballon d'Or either. De Bruyne didn't make the FIFA Team of the Year (I think that's what it's called) but for me, he's definitely one of the best players in the world, as is Silva or Reus or James Rodriguez or even someone like Julian Draxler. They're not the very best, but they're certainly a cut above the likes of world class Jamie Vardy.
I don't know if that helps explain my thinking on it. Interesting debate though!
Jesus, while we all have different interpretations of world class, 100 players is a bit too broad, and will always require filling up with like Schweiny who was but no longer is, or Martial who isn't but should become, or Coutinho who has the tools but nowhere near the consistency. Consistency really should be the key difference between top players and worldies. The latter does it nearly every week.
My own narrow variation of world class is based in whether Madrid or Barcelona would flex their muscles to get him. This can lead to short lists though as most of the genuine world class players are already at those clubs. So I've got a wider, more morbid criteria which says that if the Madrid bus was to smash into the Barca bus and put them all out of the game for good, then who would those clubs smash records and pull tricks to rebuild their teams around.
In England:
Ozil, De Gea, Aguero - definitely.
De Bruyne, Kompany, Zabaleta, Silva, Lloris, Kane, Courtois, Fabregas, Willian, Hazard, Costa, Sanchez, Cech, Lukaku, Sturridge - probably.
Shaw, Alderwereld, Alli, Eriksen, Stones, Barkley, Mahrez, Kolorov, Martial, Mata, Koscielny, Coquelin, Ramsey, Giroud, Azpic, Matic, Payet - maybe.
Age would count against a few others. Form of Liverpool and Man Utd a big factor too.
Definitely not vintage times for the EPL in terms of quality. But at least it's exciting.
Quote from: thewobbler on February 02, 2016, 06:32:32 PM
Jesus, while we all have different interpretations of world class, 100 players is a bit too broad, and will always require filling up with like Schweiny who was but no longer is, or Martial who isn't but should become, or Coutinho who has the tools but nowhere near the consistency. Consistency really should be the key difference between top players and worldies. The latter does it nearly every week.
My own narrow variation of world class is based in whether Madrid or Barcelona would flex their muscles to get him. This can lead to short lists though as most of the genuine world class players are already at those clubs. So I've got a wider, more morbid criteria which says that if the Madrid bus was to smash into the Barca bus and put them all out of the game for good, then who would those clubs smash records and pull tricks to rebuild their teams around.
In England:
Ozil, De Gea, Aguero - definitely.
De Bruyne, Kompany, Zabaleta, Silva, Lloris, Kane, Courtois, Fabregas, Willian, Hazard, Costa, Sanchez, Cech, Lukaku, Sturridge - probably.
Shaw, Alderwereld, Alli, Eriksen, Stones, Barkley, Mahrez, Kolorov, Martial, Mata, Koscielny, Coquelin, Ramsey, Giroud, Azpic, Matic, Payet - maybe.
Age would count against a few others. Form of Liverpool and Man Utd a big factor too.
Definitely not vintage times for the EPL in terms of quality. But at least it's exciting.
Can I have some of what you're smoking please :-\
Luke Shaw world class...?! Some of the others are just as strange.