A must win game for Armagh. Laois might feel the same. A stong likelihood of the build up being dominated by the a rehearing of the nonsense of the recent meetings between these sides.
Laois normally have a decent midfield. We had no midfield against Meath. A key battle that will have to be addressed by Armagh management. As will the kick out strategy.
A few too many Armagh forwards think that running around and being busy will be the winning of the game. Time for a few of them to step up and take hold of a game. Time for the management to wake up to the need to have scoring forwards close to goal and a strategy for getting the ball to them before they are bottled up. Some positive signs in the first half in Navan but quickly snuffed out.
I actually would have hoped to have had Meath & Laois in our last two games so the Cross men would have been available and the injuries cleared up but didn't work out that way, Armagh simply have to win this game...a defeat and we'll be relegated, obviously Laois will be saying the same thing. I know we got one or two injuries last weekend so will we be weakened further? I doubt the lads that were unavailable last week will be available week as I'm sure 6 days will hardly do much fro their injuries.
So similar team to line out that played against Meath...Add 2-3 points extra points for being at home and a few extra for the weather and we should score 12-13 points...will that be enough to beat Laois?
Im home next weekend and will be at this game though I will be travelling more in hope than in expectation
Wouldn't put the housekeeping on an Armagh win.
Prediction:
Armagh 0-11 Laois 3-7
Prediction.
I don't care.
When's the hurling starting?
Armagh have so many problem areas to sort out it's hard to know where to start.
After watching Laois Vs Galway live, I'd have to say Armagh are firm favourites.
Was in O'Moore Park last Sunday and was sorely tempted to leave at half-time - Laois were poorer than I had ever seen in the first half. Improved in 2nd half but game was really over by then.
First choice midfield unavailable next Sat - O'Louglin injured and Quigley suspended. I dunno what Armagh are like this season but I reckon they are a good bet for 2 points on Sat. And we don't even have Billy Sheehan to wind the feckers up !
From the posts on the two teams this sounds like this could be a vital game in terms of the relegation battle.
I think Armagh can win. Laois took a fair oul trouncing but then again our lot failed to score in the second half. With Laois having a few key men out I'd be hopeful of Armagh being able to capitalise. It's a must win for both sides. Should be close. Is kevin Dyas any closer to full fitness?
Laois by 4
A relegation four pointer.
Neither set of supporters will be going into this with any kind of confidence. The loser of this game is nailed down for relegation.
Quote from: JP on February 04, 2016, 09:34:44 AM
Neither set of supporters will be going into this with any kind of confidence. The loser of this game is nailed down for relegation.
You would say that and Laois loosing their first two games last year to Westmeath and then Cavan at home pointed to them going down but they managed to get 2 wins and a draw from the "harder games on paper"and stayed up so nothing is clear cut...
I do agree tho the looser will be under serious pressure!
I reckon lose and loser are the words most often misspelt words on this board - it's as bad as loose marking.
It seems likely the weather will be crap as well as the football. Thank God for the cover in the Athletic Grounds.
Any radio stations covering the game?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/northern-ireland/35419843
I thought I saw this advertised as being on Setanta?
Mayo Dublin is on my Setanta though.
Some job being done there!
Full time Ard Mhacha 0-15 Laois 1-13
Hon Laois
Cassidy must think there was a rule introduced to ban tackling completely. He's not a good'un.
Disappointing stuff from Armagh. One thing i noticed more than anything else was our total inability to get a breaking ball from a kickout, surely coaching 101 at a kickout is if you're not jumping you should be standing facing a potential knockdown, we seemed to be oblivious to this (1st half especially).
Donnie Kingston made all the difference imo.
Armagh will find it hard to pick up any points this year, will be tough ask to stay up now.
Fair play to Armagh. Their two year plan to lift the newly formed Tommy Murphy Cup is bang on track!
Poor game but gee the referee was awful for Armagh
The Laois number 8 and the full forward and the wee corner forward were the pick of the players on show
For the life of me Still can't work out some of the referees decisions , he was very poor
I think the focus has to be on picking up a point somewhere in our last 5 games. We are a fierce poor outfit right now. Relegation feels inevitable.
It's looking like a quick return to division three for Armagh. Three week break to come up with a plan on how to improve.
quite fancied the apple munchers tonight, wee double with Derry down the swanny, useless hoors.
Quote from: naka on February 06, 2016, 09:37:28 PM
Poor game but gee the referee was awful for Armagh
The Laois number 8 and the full forward and the wee corner forward were the pick of the players on show
For the life of me Still can't work out some of the referees decisions , he was very poor
Armagh, while poor, should have got a draw out of this, even one of the 3 shots off the woodwork would have done the job.
But all of failings of last year are on show again and only Campbell looked the part for Armagh.
I don't usually give out about the ref, who has a hard job, but tonight there seem two very clear incidents in the second half. I'll have a look at the TV view of these but they seemed as clear as any can be.
Fact is Laois fully deserved the win.For the second week in a row we concede an early goal,and even with a strong wind at our backs never clawed back a modest enough 4 point deficit at half time to parity.Laois much more astute about retaining possession against the wind showing far more composure to pick off crucial scores,while Armagh far too impatient and indisciplined in the second half with a strong wind at their backs.Hard to see even one positive
Great win for Laois who had a really horrific opener v Galway.
laois looked by far the better team, ref got a couple of decision wrong especially a black card for a Laois man dragging down the armagh man late on. Armagh to me have got discipline issues, Findon with late hits and forker with too much mouth, bit of discipline is needed as these men would seen the line in the heat of the Ulster championship
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 07, 2016, 12:58:31 AM
laois looked by far the better team, ref got a couple of decision wrong especially a black card for a Laois man dragging down the armagh man late on. Armagh to me have got discipline issues, Findon with late hots and forker with too much mouth, bit of discipline is needed as these men would seen the line int he heat of the Ulster championship
Bit of an exaggeration to say that Laois were by far the better team. They had a bit of extra composure and got a bit of the rub of the green with the 3 shots hitting the woodwork. Two evenly poor teams in my opinion with a fair chance that one or both will get relegated.
You do not have to tell anyone in Armagh that they have discipline problems with Findon and Forker. To be fair to Forker he has been improving but is still prone to losing it. Does not help though the amount of times the assistant manager comes on to mouth at the referee.
The match programme is about the only thing that has improved as far as Armagh are concerned
To say Campbell was the only Armagh player to look the part ignores the contribution of Miceal McKenna which I don't agree with. He has been a real find over the last two years (the only one).
Losing what was rightly called a must win game leaves us in a heap of trouble.
We had too many substandard players on the field, pure and simple.
Criticism of McGeeney which I agree with to some extent must be tempered by the list of players missing at the minute. In the defence we are missing Mallon, Murray, McKeever, Morgan (all certain starters). In attack we are missing Dyas, T Kernan, C Rafferty, A Murnin and J Clarke.
If anyone can turn things around, it's McGeeney.
Very highly-rated nationally.
Quote from: Aaron Boone on February 07, 2016, 10:26:58 AM
If anyone can turn things around, it's McGeeney.
Very highly-rated nationally.
Lol. Post of the year so far.
Quote from: Orior on February 07, 2016, 11:24:00 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on February 07, 2016, 10:26:58 AM
If anyone can turn things around, it's McGeeney.
Very highly-rated nationally.
Lol. Post of the year so far.
Has to be tongue in cheek.
Although I heard McGeeney's long-term plan in relation to the league was to get out of Division 3 in year 1 and then out of Division 2 in year 2.
Unfortunately it looks like it will be getting out in the wrong direction, especially when you consider the 2 sides that beat Armagh were both beaten in their other games. Meath beaten by Fermanagh by 4 points after beating Armagh by 5 and Laois losing by 8 points before beating Armagh by a point. Tyrone in Round 6 and Derry in Round 7 are probably already dreaming of relegating Armagh.
Whole picture needs to be looked at.Once again Crossmaglen going for by now a meaningless All Ireland club title throws the whole county senior squad into disarray.Our best player declares himself unavailable,and others have retired prematurely.
The two league games to date have been dire.The full forward line has been anonymous,we relied largely on frees against Laois,the team was devoid of leadership and confidence.
You really don't understand the gaa at all do you.
Quote from: twohands!!! on February 07, 2016, 07:46:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on February 07, 2016, 11:24:00 AM
Quote from: Aaron Boone on February 07, 2016, 10:26:58 AM
If anyone can turn things around, it's McGeeney.
Very highly-rated nationally.
Lol. Post of the year so far.
Has to be tongue in cheek.
Although I heard McGeeney's long-term plan in relation to the league was to get out of Division 3 in year 1 and then out of Division 2 in year 2.
Unfortunately it looks like it will be getting out in the wrong direction, especially when you consider the 2 sides that beat Armagh were both beaten in their other games. Meath beaten by Fermanagh by 4 points after beating Armagh by 5 and Laois losing by 8 points before beating Armagh by a point. Tyrone in Round 6 and Derry in Round 7 are probably already dreaming of relegating Armagh.
New post of the year?
Quote from: imtommygunn on February 07, 2016, 08:14:06 PM
You really don't understand the gaa at all do you.
I think I see where this debate is heading. If we moved Cross into Louth then we could get on with discussing how Armagh can stop the rot.
Quote from: T Fearon on February 07, 2016, 07:54:56 PM
Whole picture needs to be looked at.Once again Crossmaglen going for by now a meaningless All Ireland club title throws the whole county senior squad into disarray.Our best player declares himself unavailable,and others have retired prematurely.
The two league games to date have been dire.The full forward line has been anonymous,we relied largely on frees against Laois,the team was devoid of leadership and confidence.
And you blame that on Crossmaglen being the best club team in Ireland?
Successful counties are those where club football is relegated to the margins and the County side quite rightly is the priority.I agree with the Tyrone approach,whether it be the Mc Kenna Cup or All Ireland,the aim is to win the competition.
Quote from: Orior on February 07, 2016, 08:26:44 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on February 07, 2016, 08:14:06 PM
You really don't understand the gaa at all do you.
I think I see where this debate is heading. If we moved Cross into Louth then we could get on with discussing how Armagh can stop the rot.
That or ban club football. Should be outlawed ::)
If the two performances to date had been overseen by Paddy O'Rourke there'd be riots
Also read an interview with Sean Cavanagh,at end of 2008 season.He said after the draw with Down in opening round of Ulster that year,people were telling him the County team would do nothing that season and advised him to concentrate on the club.That sums it up.County Football is the priority in other counties,but not Armagh
Quote from: Throw ball on February 07, 2016, 01:38:29 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on February 07, 2016, 12:58:31 AM
laois looked by far the better team, ref got a couple of decision wrong especially a black card for a Laois man dragging down the armagh man late on. Armagh to me have got discipline issues, Findon with late hots and forker with too much mouth, bit of discipline is needed as these men would seen the line int he heat of the Ulster championship
Bit of an exaggeration to say that Laois were by far the better team. They had a bit of extra composure and got a bit of the rub of the green with the 3 shots hitting the woodwork. Two evenly poor teams in my opinion with a fair chance that one or both will get relegated.
You do not have to tell anyone in Armagh that they have discipline problems with Findon and Forker. To be fair to Forker he has been improving but is still prone to losing it. Does not help though the amount of times the assistant manager comes on to mouth at the referee.
Armagh were poor once again. Quality performances in the mcgeeney era are like hen' s pension plans. In some respects we don't have the players. We don't have the players to compete in the first division but we do have the players to defeat the likes of Meath and laois who are both poor sides. Vernon, aidan forker, soupy and McKenna are performing. The only players willing to take responsibility. Honourable mentions for shields (doing ok and working his way back to fitness), mcparland and the 2 new defenders. Mcparland makes the runs, nobody hits the pass and management take mcparland off. There isn't great strength on the bench. Quick fire substitutions or selection changes are not the answer. This isn't where management should be looking. Look at themselves. Look at the positioning of the players and the tactics for getting the ball into the full forwards in positions where they score or with support players close on hand. Look at some options for winning break ball in the middle. Look at which players are best suited for the sweeper role. Look at when to play a sweeper and when to push up. Look at player discipline.
The big lie here is that Armagh are in year 2 of a 5 year plan. What is the plan? How are we doing? What are the consequences of failure? But most importantly, McGeeney himself is falling short. Are we to wait 5 years for him to grasp the basics
I'm sure if the cross lads had been playing it would be different. Esp t kernan. Judge mcgeeny when he has a full hand
18 months ago we ran Donegal to a point in the AI Quarter final,and drawing with Monaghan and beating Tyrone,Riscommon and Meath,all away from home.Since then the decline has been rapid and alarming with not one truly impressive performance in league or Championship.
Quote from: redzone on February 07, 2016, 09:46:48 PM
I'm sure if the cross lads had been playing it would be different. Esp t kernan. Judge mcgeeny when he has a full hand
Which Cross lads?
Tony kernan, hanratty, that defender who always fouls,can't mind his name
Tony fishing for a Cross row? The notion that Cross players not being available is a red herring. If the majority of non-Cross Armagh supporters are to believed only 2-3 Cross players would be playing if available, TK, James Morgan and Jamie. Jamie is gone so he can't be considered. TK and James would obviously add to the team but they are only 2 players. I can't comment on the games as I haven't seen them but the results speak for themselves. From watching club football over the last few years in the county the thing that is apparent to me is that there is simply a lack of talent in the county. Outside of ourselves no club has made any real impact at provincial level. No club has provided a significant challenge to us in the senior in Armagh. I don't know what the quality of coaching that is going on in some clubs but it does not seem to be transferring to quality players coming through to the senior team.
Outside of Clann Eireann and to a lesser extent Cullyhanna no club seems to be making real moves at underage. The next step of bringing that to senior is the difficult one. Pearse Ogs and Harps had possibly as strong underage structures for a number of years and only broke through once. The thing is other clubs were pushing us. Time to stop looking to us to fix your problems and accept that the quality isn't what it was and take responsibility.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 09:59:36 AM
Tony fishing for a Cross row? The notion that Cross players not being available is a red herring. If the majority of non-Cross Armagh supporters are to believed only 2-3 Cross players would be playing if available, TK, James Morgan and Jamie. Jamie is gone so he can't be considered. TK and James would obviously add to the team but they are only 2 players. I can't comment on the games as I haven't seen them but the results speak for themselves. From watching club football over the last few years in the county the thing that is apparent to me is that there is simply a lack of talent in the county. Outside of ourselves no club has made any real impact at provincial level. No club has provided a significant challenge to us in the senior in Armagh. I don't know what the quality of coaching that is going on in some clubs but it does not seem to be transferring to quality players coming through to the senior team.
Outside of Clann Eireann and to a lesser extent Cullyhanna no club seems to be making real moves at underage. The next step of bringing that to senior is the difficult one. Pearse Ogs and Harps had possibly as strong underage structures for a number of years and only broke through once. The thing is other clubs were pushing us. Time to stop looking to us to fix your problems and accept that the quality isn't what it was and take responsibility.
I hope every club man in the county wouldn't use "your" when referring to Armagh.
Quote from: DuffleKing on February 08, 2016, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 09:59:36 AM
Tony fishing for a Cross row? The notion that Cross players not being available is a red herring. If the majority of non-Cross Armagh supporters are to believed only 2-3 Cross players would be playing if available, TK, James Morgan and Jamie. Jamie is gone so he can't be considered. TK and James would obviously add to the team but they are only 2 players. I can't comment on the games as I haven't seen them but the results speak for themselves. From watching club football over the last few years in the county the thing that is apparent to me is that there is simply a lack of talent in the county. Outside of ourselves no club has made any real impact at provincial level. No club has provided a significant challenge to us in the senior in Armagh. I don't know what the quality of coaching that is going on in some clubs but it does not seem to be transferring to quality players coming through to the senior team.
Outside of Clann Eireann and to a lesser extent Cullyhanna no club seems to be making real moves at underage. The next step of bringing that to senior is the difficult one. Pearse Ogs and Harps had possibly as strong underage structures for a number of years and only broke through once. The thing is other clubs were pushing us. Time to stop looking to us to fix your problems and accept that the quality isn't what it was and take responsibility.
I hope every club man in the county wouldn't use "your" when referring to Armagh.
Duffleking, Armagh football is where it is because of the lack of quality within the clubs generally which transfers up to a lack of quality in the county team. In the last 4-5 years I have seen the majority of the clubs in action in Armagh and there is a serious low standard in comparison for instance to Monaghan. I can do a direct comparison as I have coached teams in both counties and the difference level is dramatic. Your average Monaghan junior club would beat a high level intermediate club in Armagh. The lie that is being thrown out by people is that there are lots of 'regulars' missing on this Armagh team. There will be 4-5 additions maximum. The thing is that most counties play the early league games with 3-4 regulars missing due to one reason or another. The depth in the Armagh squad is not there and I lay that blame not at the door of the management (who btw are not exempt from criticism for tactical naivety and team preparation) but at the doors of the clubs throughout the county so it, in my opinion, is 'their' problem which then ultimately becomes 'our' problem.
Laois are a decent team. Meath are less good but Armagh can still win matches
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 10:22:31 AM
The lie that is being thrown out by people is that there are lots of 'regulars' missing on this Armagh team. There will be 4-5 additions maximum. The thing is that most counties play the early league games with 3-4 regulars missing due to one reason or another. The depth in the Armagh squad is not there and I lay that blame not at the door of the management (who btw are not exempt from criticism for tactical naivety and team preparation) but at the doors of the clubs throughout the county so it, in my opinion, is 'their' problem which then ultimately becomes 'our' problem.
In a previous post on this thread I had listed four backs, Andy Mallon, Mickey Murray, Ciaran McKeever, & James Morgan who were missing. I actually forgot about Brendan Donaghy, there's five members of our starting team. The only backs that are playing at the minute that will make (or indeed have made) our championship team will be Vernon and Shields, although young Heffron looks promising in fairness.
Our forwards are missing Dyas, TK, Andrew Murnin, Caolan Rafferty and Jamie Clarke. Those guys are all starters also, not squad players. That's two thirds of our team. Clarke and Rafferty won't be back this year so discount them out of the equation if you want but there are more than 3-4 players missing at the minute, I make that 8 players that we would hope will be playing come championship time.
I wouldn't use this as a get out of jail card for McGeeney but at the same time it can't be ignored.
You are 100% right though when you say we have no depth of squad. There are lads togging out at the minute who are not the required standard at all.
I was impressed by the Laois forwards. Armagh created more scoring chances, but Laois were more efficient. 4 different Laois lads scored from 40 yards. They played the ref better too
Quote from: T Fearon on February 07, 2016, 09:17:12 PM
Successful counties are those where club football is relegated to the margins and the County side quite rightly is the priority.I agree with the Tyrone approach,whether it be the Mc Kenna Cup or All Ireland,the aim is to win the competition.
What a load of balls - where the county without club?
Too many clubs and too many small clubs especially in Armagh for there to be a strong competitive club scene to feed into the county team. Cross are the exception to the rule and it's easy to chastise clubs for not challenging them and saying how the Monaghan junior scene is far superior to Armagh intermediate.. Fact is half the clubs in this county amalgamate at at least one grade to provide kids with a game of football and that includes many of the Division 1 clubs. The least the likes of Clann Éireann should be doing is fielding strong underage sides given they've 2-3k membership.
Thats not to say a strong club scene is necessary to make a half decent county team (Fermanagh). Absolute piles of money have been poured into armagh to develop youth in development squads etc, we have three schools playing McRory plus the two Newry schools. We have Ulster champions this year at u16, Minor and possibly u21. I actually think underage football has improved in the last decade in Armagh. I think with limited resources Armagh has punched above its weight and too many of us have high expectations when it comes to the county team.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 10:22:31 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on February 08, 2016, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 09:59:36 AM
Tony fishing for a Cross row? The notion that Cross players not being available is a red herring. If the majority of non-Cross Armagh supporters are to believed only 2-3 Cross players would be playing if available, TK, James Morgan and Jamie. Jamie is gone so he can't be considered. TK and James would obviously add to the team but they are only 2 players. I can't comment on the games as I haven't seen them but the results speak for themselves. From watching club football over the last few years in the county the thing that is apparent to me is that there is simply a lack of talent in the county. Outside of ourselves no club has made any real impact at provincial level. No club has provided a significant challenge to us in the senior in Armagh. I don't know what the quality of coaching that is going on in some clubs but it does not seem to be transferring to quality players coming through to the senior team.
Outside of Clann Eireann and to a lesser extent Cullyhanna no club seems to be making real moves at underage. The next step of bringing that to senior is the difficult one. Pearse Ogs and Harps had possibly as strong underage structures for a number of years and only broke through once. The thing is other clubs were pushing us. Time to stop looking to us to fix your problems and accept that the quality isn't what it was and take responsibility.
I hope every club man in the county wouldn't use "your" when referring to Armagh.
Duffleking, Armagh football is where it is because of the lack of quality within the clubs generally which transfers up to a lack of quality in the county team. In the last 4-5 years I have seen the majority of the clubs in action in Armagh and there is a serious low standard in comparison for instance to Monaghan. I can do a direct comparison as I have coached teams in both counties and the difference level is dramatic. Your average Monaghan junior club would beat a high level intermediate club in Armagh. The lie that is being thrown out by people is that there are lots of 'regulars' missing on this Armagh team. There will be 4-5 additions maximum. The thing is that most counties play the early league games with 3-4 regulars missing due to one reason or another. The depth in the Armagh squad is not there and I lay that blame not at the door of the management (who btw are not exempt from criticism for tactical naivety and team preparation) but at the doors of the clubs throughout the county so it, in my opinion, is 'their' problem which then ultimately becomes 'our' problem.
Quote from: general_lee on February 08, 2016, 01:25:07 PM
Too many clubs and too many small clubs especially in Armagh for there to be a strong competitive club scene to feed into the county team. Cross are the exception to the rule and it's easy to chastise clubs for not challenging them and saying how the Monaghan junior scene is far superior to Armagh intermediate.. Fact is half the clubs in this county amalgamate at at least one grade to provide kids with a game of football and that includes many of the Division 1 clubs. The least the likes of Clann Éireann should be doing is fielding strong underage sides given they've 2-3k membership.
Thats not to say a strong club scene is necessary to make a half decent county team (Fermanagh). Absolute piles of money have been poured into armagh to develop youth in development squads etc, we have three schools playing McRory plus the two Newry schools. We have Ulster champions this year at u16, Minor and possibly u21. I actually think underage football has improved in the last decade in Armagh. I think with limited resources Armagh has punched above its weight and too many of us have high expectations when it comes to the county team.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 10:22:31 AM
Quote from: DuffleKing on February 08, 2016, 10:10:21 AM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 08, 2016, 09:59:36 AM
Tony fishing for a Cross row? The notion that Cross players not being available is a red herring. If the majority of non-Cross Armagh supporters are to believed only 2-3 Cross players would be playing if available, TK, James Morgan and Jamie. Jamie is gone so he can't be considered. TK and James would obviously add to the team but they are only 2 players. I can't comment on the games as I haven't seen them but the results speak for themselves. From watching club football over the last few years in the county the thing that is apparent to me is that there is simply a lack of talent in the county. Outside of ourselves no club has made any real impact at provincial level. No club has provided a significant challenge to us in the senior in Armagh. I don't know what the quality of coaching that is going on in some clubs but it does not seem to be transferring to quality players coming through to the senior team.
Outside of Clann Eireann and to a lesser extent Cullyhanna no club seems to be making real moves at underage. The next step of bringing that to senior is the difficult one. Pearse Ogs and Harps had possibly as strong underage structures for a number of years and only broke through once. The thing is other clubs were pushing us. Time to stop looking to us to fix your problems and accept that the quality isn't what it was and take responsibility.
I hope every club man in the county wouldn't use "your" when referring to Armagh.
Duffleking, Armagh football is where it is because of the lack of quality within the clubs generally which transfers up to a lack of quality in the county team. In the last 4-5 years I have seen the majority of the clubs in action in Armagh and there is a serious low standard in comparison for instance to Monaghan. I can do a direct comparison as I have coached teams in both counties and the difference level is dramatic. Your average Monaghan junior club would beat a high level intermediate club in Armagh. The lie that is being thrown out by people is that there are lots of 'regulars' missing on this Armagh team. There will be 4-5 additions maximum. The thing is that most counties play the early league games with 3-4 regulars missing due to one reason or another. The depth in the Armagh squad is not there and I lay that blame not at the door of the management (who btw are not exempt from criticism for tactical naivety and team preparation) but at the doors of the clubs throughout the county so it, in my opinion, is 'their' problem which then ultimately becomes 'our' problem.
are you sure Clann Eireann have a membership of 2-3000? Theres a lot of clubs in the Lurgan area and that number seems high to me.
Probably more around the 2k mark, point is they're the biggest GAA club in the county by membership.
Quote from: general_lee on February 08, 2016, 02:46:10 PM
Probably more around the 2k mark, point is they're the biggest GAA club in the county by membership.
Is it true that some of the Dublin clubs have more members than the county of Leitrim?
Quote from: general_lee on February 08, 2016, 02:46:10 PM
Probably more around the 2k mark, point is they're the biggest GAA club in the county by membership.
they have grown a lot since I was a member. Does that include handball/ladies football etc?
Quote from: general_lee on February 08, 2016, 02:46:10 PM
Probably more around the 2k mark, point is they're the biggest GAA club in the county by membership.
No where near it...and your prob counting all underage registrations too
Stand corrected - 1500
So looking at the success of underage football in the county as recently quoted are Armagh's best years ahead of us at the Senior County Level or will we continue to struggle with competition from other sports, emigration and the demands of the game?
From 6000 miles away there is a decent mix of old and new and a lot of the current squad are very talented footballers. What's the main problem at the matches for those who are there in person? Drive, desire?
Management/tactics?
Quote from: The Iceman on February 08, 2016, 06:29:40 PM
So looking at the success of underage football in the county as recently quoted are Armagh's best years ahead of us at the Senior County Level or will we continue to struggle with competition from other sports, emigration and the demands of the game?
From 6000 miles away there is a decent mix of old and new and a lot of the current squad are very talented footballers. What's the main problem at the matches for those who are there in person? Drive, desire?
Management/tactics?
May only be me but experience, composure and a fear of making mistakes cover a lot of the problems. Campbell runs his guts out looking for space. He is an example to the rest. To many others aren't making these runs and too many times the man on the ball takes the easy option instead of the right option.
I wonder is part of this due to Cross dominance in the county. Too few players have won anything. Too many are used to getting beat. It is a bad habit. As others have said their are too many clubs in such a small county and the talent I split too far - but there are talented players there.
Too many times I hear people in the county say the referee favours Cross or Cross are dirty, fly or whatever. That to me is a load of rubbish. They are no different in this regard than any other team. To suggest so is only making excuses for failure and hinders the county in the long run.
Throw ball's first paragraph covers a lot of the problems. I would add that it looks like a number of player's don't understand the system.
Armagh aren't winning much at underage as far as I know.
Crossmaglen's obsession (the novelty should have worn off after the third title in 2000) with the All Ireland club championship has held the County team back for the last twenty years.It is no coincidence that Sam was won and the peak years,2002 to 2006 for the County team did not clash with Crossmaglen's appearance in the All Ireland club finals.No coincidence either that during that period a Crossmaglen man was in charge of the County team.
Quote from: Throw ball on February 08, 2016, 06:50:55 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 08, 2016, 06:29:40 PM
So looking at the success of underage football in the county as recently quoted are Armagh's best years ahead of us at the Senior County Level or will we continue to struggle with competition from other sports, emigration and the demands of the game?
From 6000 miles away there is a decent mix of old and new and a lot of the current squad are very talented footballers. What's the main problem at the matches for those who are there in person? Drive, desire?
Management/tactics?
May only be me but experience, composure and a fear of making mistakes cover a lot of the problems. Campbell runs his guts out looking for space. He is an example to the rest. To many others aren't making these runs and too many times the man on the ball takes the easy option instead of the right option.
I wonder is part of this due to Cross dominance in the county. Too few players have won anything. Too many are used to getting beat. It is a bad habit. As others have said their are too many clubs in such a small county and the talent I split too far - but there are talented players there.
Too many times I hear people in the county say the referee favours Cross or Cross are dirty, fly or whatever. That to me is a load of rubbish. They are no different in this regard than any other team. To suggest so is only making excuses for failure and hinders the county in the long run.
Quote from: ardchieftain on February 08, 2016, 07:11:57 PM
Throw ball's first paragraph covers a lot of the problems. I would add that it looks like a number of player's don't understand the system.
The point I make about McParland is that he is one of those players making the runs but nobody is hitting the pass. McGeeney reacts by taking McParland off. Can he not see what is actually happening? I get the impression that if the milkman didn't deliver the milk to chez Geezer for a couple of days, Kieran would react by throwing out the milk he already had in the fridge. Just so that he could feel that he was doing something.
If what we are watching now had happened on O'Rourke or Grimley's watch there would have been riots by now. As it is the fans seem to voting with their feet (and their wallets).
Quote from: Throw ball on February 08, 2016, 06:50:55 PM
Quote from: The Iceman on February 08, 2016, 06:29:40 PM
So looking at the success of underage football in the county as recently quoted are Armagh's best years ahead of us at the Senior County Level or will we continue to struggle with competition from other sports, emigration and the demands of the game?
From 6000 miles away there is a decent mix of old and new and a lot of the current squad are very talented footballers. What's the main problem at the matches for those who are there in person? Drive, desire?
Management/tactics?
May only be me but experience, composure and a fear of making mistakes cover a lot of the problems. Campbell runs his guts out looking for space. He is an example to the rest. To many others aren't making these runs and too many times the man on the ball takes the easy option instead of the right option.
I wonder is part of this due to Cross dominance in the county. Too few players have won anything. Too many are used to getting beat. It is a bad habit. As others have said their are too many clubs in such a small county and the talent I split too far - but there are talented players there.
Too many times I hear people in the county say the referee favours Cross or Cross are dirty, fly or whatever. That to me is a load of rubbish. They are no different in this regard than any other team. To suggest so is only making excuses for failure and hinders the county in the long run.
Would agree with this. There was a lack of movement against Laois. At times the game was crying out for someone to make a run into the wide spaces that were opening up, but it hardly happened. Whether this is inexperience, tactics or lack of nous or fitness I don't really know.
Laois played some nice football in horrible conditions should have won by more ...
We're missing their 3 first choice midfielders and then lost the next best after 15 minutes but still managed to win
Quote from: seafoid on February 08, 2016, 07:38:56 PM
Armagh aren't winning much at underage as far as I know.
At county level no. At club level yes.
Quote from: Unlaoised on February 08, 2016, 11:29:47 PM
Laois played some nice football in horrible conditions should have won by more ...
We're missing their 3 first choice midfielders and then lost the next best after 15 minutes but still managed to win
Armagh do not have much of a midfield so that hardly matters. I disagree completely that Laois should have won by more. Armagh missed frees, hit the woodwork 3 times and Laois scored a debatable penalty. It was a hell of a 45 that eventually won the match though.
Quote from: Unlaoised on February 08, 2016, 11:29:47 PM
Laois played some nice football in horrible conditions should have won by more ...
We're missing their 3 first choice midfielders and then lost the next best after 15 minutes but still managed to win
So thats how you won...sneaked an extra midfielder on...bastids
Quote from: Unlaoised on February 08, 2016, 11:29:47 PM
Laois played some nice football in horrible conditions should have won by more ...
We're missing their 3 first choice midfielders and then lost the next best after 15 minutes but still managed to win
Agreed.
Quote from: laoislad on February 09, 2016, 11:43:51 AM
Quote from: Unlaoised on February 08, 2016, 11:29:47 PM
Laois played some nice football in horrible conditions should have won by more ...
We're missing their 3 first choice midfielders and then lost the next best after 15 minutes but still managed to win
Agreed.
You would.
Disappointing result for Armagh, not enough quality on the pitch.
What does McGeeney mean,consoling himself with the fact that the entire panel wants to play for Armagh? I want to play for Armagh but doubt if I'd improve the squad.Is the inference that some players don't want to play for Armagh,if not why not?
You started the Jamie Clarke thread man...
Quote from: T Fearon on February 08, 2016, 10:37:00 PM
Crossmaglen's obsession (the novelty should have worn off after the third title in 2000) with the All Ireland club championship has held the County team back for the last twenty years.It is no coincidence that Sam was won and the peak years,2002 to 2006 for the County team did not clash with Crossmaglen's appearance in the All Ireland club finals.No coincidence either that during that period a Crossmaglen man was in charge of the County team.
I really dont get this. Do you actually think that Crossmaglen should go out and throw games for the good of Armagh football? :o
Quote from: T Fearon on February 09, 2016, 08:53:52 PM
What does McGeeney mean,consoling himself with the fact that the entire panel wants to play for Armagh? I want to play for Armagh but doubt if I'd improve the squad.Is the inference that some players don't want to play for Armagh,if not why not?
It's a bit like the liberal democrats consoling themselves that their remaining tiny membership all want to vote lib dem. It's evidence of a man losing grip on reality
Knockitdown, In the modern era I think county players should prioritise the county team.Thats what happens in every other county.With Crossmaglen it appears to be the other way round (except of course when a Crossmaglen man is manager of the County team).
Let's face it,the preference should be to win the Sam Maguire medal instead of the club title,for any player.
Quote from: T Fearon on February 09, 2016, 09:41:27 PM
Knockitdown, In the modern era I think county players should prioritise the county team.Thats what happens in every other county.With Crossmaglen it appears to be the other way round (except of course when a Crossmaglen man is manager of the County team).
Let's face it,the preference should be to win the Sam Maguire medal instead of the club title,for any player.
You're some laugh? Not a mission that there will be a Sam Maguire in the foreseeable future in Armagh, no matter how many of the current available players are playing. We are 2 hours away from an AI possibly, Armagh are not.
That's exactly the sort of perverse attitude I'm referring to.County players should always prioritise the county squad,just like Oisin,Francie and the Mc Entees did when Joe was Armagh manager
Quote from: T Fearon on February 09, 2016, 10:22:33 PM
That's exactly the sort of perverse attitude I'm referring to.County players should always prioritise the county squad,just like Oisin,Francie and the Mc Entees did when Joe was Armagh manager
Perverse attitude? Away and catch yourself on, Oisin and the Mcs did it when the Brians were over it, Cross men have always stood up and have been counted when it really mattered, it's time for the rest of the players in the county to put their hands up too. When we are going for AIs we give everything to the club, when our men play for Armagh they give everything for the county.
You cannot serve two masters.One of the two teams has to take priority
Quote from: T Fearon on February 09, 2016, 10:33:36 PM
You cannot serve two masters.One of the two teams has to take priority
there's no county team without the club so the club takes priority.
Quote from: T Fearon on February 09, 2016, 09:41:27 PM
Knockitdown, In the modern era I think county players should prioritise the county team.Thats what happens in every other county.With Crossmaglen it appears to be the other way round (except of course when a Crossmaglen man is manager of the County team).
Let's face it,the preference should be to win the Sam Maguire medal instead of the club title,for any player.
Dublin, Mayo and kerry have all had clubs at the business end of the club championship and still managed decent results at county level.
The domination of the club scene in Armagh by one club is probably the real problem. Very few successful counties are dominated to such an extent. Improving the standards of the other clubs should be the priority
If we go back to the 70s Lurgan Clan Na Gael had a fantastic club side,reaching the AI Final,but the County side was arguably the worst in Iteland and struggled to field 15 players in a league game in Leitrim.
However when the County side picked up in 1975/76 Smyth,Mc Kinstry,Mc Kerr etc switched their priorities to the County to the detriment of their club.
Well, hopefully the Crossmaglen boys will have no excuse to return to Armagh after Saturday.
An all Ireland senior club medal is the best thing you can win as a GAA player. County is great but I don't think many players would rather win Sam before an AI Senior Club title. So this county who or take priority talk is utter 5hite talk.
Hope cross can go the whole way again.
Are you for real? Winning Sam is the ultimate dream of any GAA player.Who really remembers club champions?
Explain to me why Crossmaglen never reached a club final from 2000 to 2007,when the focus was on the County team,managed by a Crossmaglen native?
Quote from: T Fearon on February 09, 2016, 10:57:00 PM
If we go back to the 70s Lurgan Clan Na Gael had a fantastic club side,reaching the AI Final,but the County side was arguably the worst in Iteland and struggled to field 15 players in a league game in Leitrim.
However when the County side picked up in 1975/76 Smyth,Mc Kinstry,Mc Kerr etc switched their priorities to the County to the detriment of their club.
You don't know anything about those 3 men and what priorities they gave to whom, you are just putting 2 + 2 together and getting 5. As usual you're on here talking the biggest load of shite and you're doing it that long you actually believe it too. Clan na Gael won the championship in 76, 80 & 81 not bad for 3 County men giving their priorities elsewhere ::)
This club v county thing is a very interesting debate but actually a bit of a bluff in the exact case of Armagh. There are not many Cross players that are actually chosen to take the field for Armagh anyway. So if Cross abdicated now how many of their players would be put in the starting Armagh team? Probably James Morgan is the only guaranteed starter. Then Tony Kernan, Kyle Carragher, and David McKenna might (but only might) get a chance.
There is not half an Armagh side waiting to come back. I think Cross are great ambassadors for Armagh and I wish Down had a club side that could deliver us All-Ireland titles in a fallow period of county football
Quote from: T Fearon on February 10, 2016, 04:31:17 AM
Explain to me why Crossmaglen never reached a club final from 2000 to 2007,when the focus was on the County team,managed by a Crossmaglen native?
Reaching a AI club final is not the usual thing, plenty of strong clubs never manage it. Cross hardly need to justify not winning every year!
At present, Jamie Clarkes absence from Armagh is nothing to do with Cross, Morgan and TK will play, but two players should not make such a difference when the pick of the other 97% of Armagh was available all along.
In 2003, Tyrone won the All-Ireland - It was fantastic.
In 2005, Tyrone won the All-Ireland - A fantastic day.
In 2006, Greencastle won the All-Ireland Junior Club - Beyond my wildest dream.
In 2011, Sperrin Og won the All-Ireland Ladies Junior Club - One of my greatest days.
Trust me Tony, CLUB comes first.
It's up to the county to broker an agreement with Cross players. In my opinion there should be at least 5 Cross players starting for Armagh but its commitment County managers want to call the shots. If I was a Cross player my club would trump the county any time.
Well said ziggy. No better feeling than winning a championship with your club.
Although Tony is on the wind up, he represents a section of Armagh fans who follow the county team but have next to nothing to do with their clubs. This is probably because armagh club football isn't the most enticing and with the success of late 90s-late 00s there has been an emergence of Armagh fan who don't follow the club scene at all (not that you can blame them). Go to any club championship match in armagh you will see feck all compared to other counties but when the county side are playing you'll always get a fair sized crowd home or away. A lot of those people take for granted the importance of the club
Quote from: general_lee on February 10, 2016, 02:12:29 PM
Well said ziggy. No better feeling than winning a championship with your club.
Although Tony is on the wind up, he represents a section of Armagh fans who follow the county team but have next to nothing to do with their clubs. This is probably because armagh club football isn't the most enticing and with the success of late 90s-late 00s there has been an emergence of Armagh fan who don't follow the club scene at all (not that you can blame them). Go to any club championship match in armagh you will see feck all compared to other counties but when the county side are playing you'll always get a fair sized crowd home or away. A lot of those people take for granted the importance of the club
I don't believe I am doing this but Tony is different from a lot of the New Age Armagh fans in that he has a history of supporting the county and his club in Tir na nOg. The one thing I would say though is he is opinions are reflective of many of the New Age fans as well. The thing is that we are streets ahead of the rest of the clubs in what we are doing and the players, no doubt, see that at first hand. It is very difficult for some of them to commit when they don't see the level of preparation, coaching etc that they expect. The one thing I would say though is that history has shown that Cross players have been the bedrock of most of the successful Armagh teams throughout history and to doubt our clubs commitment to the Armagh cause is false and insulting. Every team that has won a national title for Armagh has had a minimum 2 Cross men. We have provided more county All Stars than any other cub. We have provided our facilities for the use of the county on many occasions and when they had no ground we were the club that were able to keep that side of the thing running. We are no different in many ways than any other club who would do that if they were able to but to suggest that we don't support the county is wrong.
Just to clarify not questioning Tony's credentials but his attitude on here certainly represents those fans who take nothing to do with their clubs.
As for cross they are an institution of the gaa, I pray every year someone in armagh beats them, cos god knows over the years there have been and still are teams that could and should! But they are the standard bearers not just in Armagh and Ulster but in Ireland. Why would you want to leave that to go and play crab football with Armagh?
Quote from: general_lee on February 10, 2016, 02:39:14 PM
Just to clarify not questioning Tony's credentials but his attitude on here certainly represents those fans who take nothing to do with their clubs.
As for cross they are an institution of the gaa, I pray every year someone in armagh beats them, cos god knows over the years there have been and still are teams that could and should! But they are the standard bearers not just in Armagh and Ulster but in Ireland. Why would you want to leave that to go and play crab football with Armagh?
And people use this stick to beat us yet year on year we do, once the club scene is over. If we have a successful year and go the whole way to the AI Final we then lose 5-6 players year on year to Armagh, they don't play club games nor train with the club very often. To doubt the Cross players commitment to Armagh when they are with Armagh is wrong
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 10, 2016, 02:54:17 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 10, 2016, 02:39:14 PM
Just to clarify not questioning Tony's credentials but his attitude on here certainly represents those fans who take nothing to do with their clubs.
As for cross they are an institution of the gaa, I pray every year someone in armagh beats them, cos god knows over the years there have been and still are teams that could and should! But they are the standard bearers not just in Armagh and Ulster but in Ireland. Why would you want to leave that to go and play crab football with Armagh?
And people use this stick to beat us yet year on year we do, once the club scene is over. If we have a successful year and go the whole way to the AI Final we then lose 5-6 players year on year to Armagh, they don't play club games nor train with the club very often. To doubt the Cross players commitment to Armagh when they are with Armagh is wrong
In fairness there is really only one person questioning their commitment everyone else knows the craic
I don't have the time to actively involve myself in club football much these days,but did so for long enough,when I had more energy and less responsibility.
I still think players with the ability should prioritise their county careers.Compare the attendances at the AI Senior County Finals and Club Finals to see what means more.
Quote from: TF15 on February 10, 2016, 12:21:50 AM
An all Ireland senior club medal is the best thing you can win as a GAA player. County is great but I don't think many players would rather win Sam before an AI Senior Club title. So this county who or take priority talk is utter 5hite talk.
Hope cross can go the whole way again.
Not true. It may be true for
you, but you can't speak for 2000 odd inter county players. If it were true, how come so many inter county players are happy to put their club careers on hold for 8 months of the year, in pursuit of Sam?
If a club title was the number 1 goal for all of them, wouldn't hordes of the top players be choosing to remain with their clubs for the summer, instead of going off on inter county duty? The fact that they don't, shows what the priorities are for 99% of them.
They put it aside 1) because you can play both 2) playing for the county will improve you as a player 3) it's a special honour to play county and pit your wits with the cream of other counties.
But if it was stated before they joined a county panel you can no longer play for your club again until your county career is over I'd say my view would be given substantial weight by the responses. Winning with your friends, family and community is incredibly special. Winning SAM may be more glamorous nationwide but not more meaningful in my opinion.
Maybe my view isn't totally universal but anyone I've ever spoke to about this issue felt the same, including many county players.
In worse news for you Armagh men, Ethan Rafferty went off with what I read us a hamstring injury. It soesent rain but it pours, grim times at the minute.
Quote from: Beffs on February 10, 2016, 07:50:54 PM
Quote from: TF15 on February 10, 2016, 12:21:50 AM
An all Ireland senior club medal is the best thing you can win as a GAA player. County is great but I don't think many players would rather win Sam before an AI Senior Club title. So this county who or take priority talk is utter 5hite talk.
Hope cross can go the whole way again.
Not true. It may be true for you, but you can't speak for 2000 odd inter county players. If it were true, how come so many inter county players are happy to put their club careers on hold for 8 months of the year, in pursuit of Sam?
If a club title was the number 1 goal for all of them, wouldn't hordes of the top players be choosing to remain with their clubs for the summer, instead of going off on inter county duty? The fact that they don't, shows what the priorities are for 99% of them.
The difference between Cross and most clubs is the prospect of success and holding your place in the team. What other club team would have left a player like Jamie Clarke on the bench when he returned to training? I know from my club's perspective if a player like that returned he would walk straight into the team. in most clubs the county player or players if they have two or three are streets ahead of their colleagues in terms of ability which means they are needed. The development squad system imo whilst good for developing county players also creates a situation in many cases where young players eager to succeed feel a greater affinity to the county than the club and from an early age prioritise county over club. Clubs accept this because they are talented players. Cross don't have that problem because in part they have a greater depth of talent and as BCB has said they also have a system for developing talent that is as good as the county's and a community cohesion that is enviable. In the case of Armagh the players from Cross on the county panel have the same level of control that a county player would normally have over his club. This doesn't mean that all county players do not have loyalty to their club or Cross players to the county, its just that they have choice and control. This is a theory of mine from observation over many years and I accept their will be exceptions.
Quote from: PAULD123 on February 10, 2016, 11:45:50 AM
This club v county thing is a very interesting debate but actually a bit of a bluff in the exact case of Armagh. There are not many Cross players that are actually chosen to take the field for Armagh anyway. So if Cross abdicated now how many of their players would be put in the starting Armagh team? Probably James Morgan is the only guaranteed starter. Then Tony Kernan, Kyle Carragher, and David McKenna might (but only might) get a chance.
There is not half an Armagh side waiting to come back. I think Cross are great ambassadors for Armagh and I wish Down had a club side that could deliver us All-Ireland titles in a fallow period of county football
No Paul Hughes???
Young Oisin O'Neill will feature for Armagh seniors in 2017 I'd say
Utter dung. Have you even played at senior level???
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on February 10, 2016, 02:29:50 PM
Quote from: general_lee on February 10, 2016, 02:12:29 PM
Well said ziggy. No better feeling than winning a championship with your club.
Although Tony is on the wind up, he represents a section of Armagh fans who follow the county team but have next to nothing to do with their clubs. This is probably because armagh club football isn't the most enticing and with the success of late 90s-late 00s there has been an emergence of Armagh fan who don't follow the club scene at all (not that you can blame them). Go to any club championship match in armagh you will see feck all compared to other counties but when the county side are playing you'll always get a fair sized crowd home or away. A lot of those people take for granted the importance of the club
I don't believe I am doing this but Tony is different from a lot of the New Age Armagh fans in that he has a history of supporting the county and his club in Tir na nOg. The one thing I would say though is he is opinions are reflective of many of the New Age fans as well. The thing is that we are streets ahead of the rest of the clubs in what we are doing and the players, no doubt, see that at first hand. It is very difficult for some of them to commit when they don't see the level of preparation, coaching etc that they expect. The one thing I would say though is that history has shown that Cross players have been the bedrock of most of the successful Armagh teams throughout history and to doubt our clubs commitment to the Armagh cause is false and insulting. Every team that has won a national title for Armagh has had a minimum 2 Cross men. We have provided more county All Stars than any other cub. We have provided our facilities for the use of the county on many occasions and when they had no ground we were the club that were able to keep that side of the thing running. We are no different in many ways than any other club who would do that if they were able to but to suggest that we don't support the county is wrong.
Do you think that if a Cross man was in charge of the county team that they would get a much bigger commitment from the Crossmaglen players?
In a way you can understand that players who aren't getting regular playing time would rather be with their clubs and would be feeling a lot of pressure from them to ditch the county, particularly when they are down so many first choice players through being unavailable.
If every Cross player made himself available for Armagh at the minute, I would speculate that they would have 11 on the county panel - Hearty, Hughes, Rushe, McKeown, Morgan, Aaron Kernan, Hanratty, Oisin O'Neill, Tony Kernan, Clarke and Carragher. Of those players I would say Hearty, Morgan, two Kernans and Clarke would be definite starters and I think Carragher, Hughes and O'Neill would be pushing hard for places as well and would see involvement. The likes of Rushe, McKeown and Hanratty would probably be more squad depth and would struggle to get minutes. Now, I know Hearty and Aaron Kernan have retired so fair enough but I do think that the success and dedication to the club has serious repercussions for the county team in Armagh.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 14, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
Do you think that if a Cross man was in charge of the county team that they would get a much bigger commitment from the Crossmaglen players?
The Cross contender to manage is Tony McEntee. If he was the Armagh manager the Cross players and a few more would be upping their commitment.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 14, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
In a way you can understand that players who aren't getting regular playing time would rather be with their clubs and would be feeling a lot of pressure from them to ditch the county, particularly when they are down so many first choice players through being unavailable
True of all clubs - i accept that might be the point you are making
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 14, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
If every Cross player made himself available for Armagh at the minute, I would speculate that they would have 11 on the county panel - Hearty, Hughes, Rushe, McKeown, Morgan, Aaron Kernan, Hanratty, Oisin O'Neill, Tony Kernan, Clarke and Carragher. Of those players I would say Hearty, Morgan, two Kernans and Clarke would be definite starters and I think Carragher, Hughes and O'Neill would be pushing hard for places as well and would see involvement. The likes of Rushe, McKeown and Hanratty would probably be more squad depth and would struggle to get minutes. Now, I know Hearty and Aaron Kernan have retired so fair enough but I do think that the success and dedication to the club has serious repercussions for the county team in Armagh.
I think we are struggling for a top flight keeper. The most convincing contender since Hearty was Geohegan but I am not sure if he is available. But Hearty was creaking in his last days in the Armagh jersey. Too many mistakes and bad decisions. Cannot see how you would make him a starter.
I agree that Rushe and O'Neill should be called up. It might be a bit early for them, especially O'Neill but being around the set up can't do any harm as long as they are allowed to play for the clubs when the club season gets going.
Aaron is retired. Get used to it. Clarke is not in the running for the time being.
Hanratty is tried and tested but at county level, failed the test.
Hughes, McKeown & Carragher are worth a call especially the first 2 when we are light on defenders.
Morgan is a cert but Tony is at a stage where he might decide to let it go
Quote from: smelmoth on February 14, 2016, 09:58:49 PM
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 14, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
Do you think that if a Cross man was in charge of the county team that they would get a much bigger commitment from the Crossmaglen players?
The Cross contender to manage is Tony McEntee. If he was the Armagh manager the Cross players and a few more would be upping their commitment.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 14, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
In a way you can understand that players who aren't getting regular playing time would rather be with their clubs and would be feeling a lot of pressure from them to ditch the county, particularly when they are down so many first choice players through being unavailable
True of all clubs - i accept that might be the point you are making
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 14, 2016, 12:01:23 PM
If every Cross player made himself available for Armagh at the minute, I would speculate that they would have 11 on the county panel - Hearty, Hughes, Rushe, McKeown, Morgan, Aaron Kernan, Hanratty, Oisin O'Neill, Tony Kernan, Clarke and Carragher. Of those players I would say Hearty, Morgan, two Kernans and Clarke would be definite starters and I think Carragher, Hughes and O'Neill would be pushing hard for places as well and would see involvement. The likes of Rushe, McKeown and Hanratty would probably be more squad depth and would struggle to get minutes. Now, I know Hearty and Aaron Kernan have retired so fair enough but I do think that the success and dedication to the club has serious repercussions for the county team in Armagh.
I think we are struggling for a top flight keeper. The most convincing contender since Hearty was Geohegan but I am not sure if he is available. But Hearty was creaking in his last days in the Armagh jersey. Too many mistakes and bad decisions. Cannot see how you would make him a starter.
I agree that Rushe and O'Neill should be called up. It might be a bit early for them, especially O'Neill but being around the set up can't do any harm as long as they are allowed to play for the clubs when the club season gets going.
Aaron is retired. Get used to it. Clarke is not in the running for the time being.
Hanratty is tried and tested but at county level, failed the test.
Hughes, McKeown & Carragher are worth a call especially the first 2 when we are light on defenders.
Morgan is a cert but Tony is at a stage where he might decide to let it go
I still don't think there is a better keeper in Armagh than Hearty. If Armagh had a decent keeper they would have made an All Ireland semi-final in 2014. It's not a position that requires any real fitness, his save against Douglas in the first half was very good on Saturday. Maybe it's more of the malaise of goalkeeping options in Armagh but I would think he is the best option still available having seen the incumbents since he retired.
Hanratty might be tried and tested but from the squads and team lists I've seen from Armagh this year, they only seem to have two actual midfielders int he squad - Findon and Rafferty.
As for the club thing, I think a lot more pressure would be exerted on the Cross lads than say for any other club team with county players. If they have 10-11 key players away from their clubs for the guts of 7-8 months with the county side, then they are going to be exerting a lot more pressure on the lads who are maybe not guaranteed starters. It seems that some of those lads just aren't prepared to bide their time.
I think we saw it to a degree last season with Tyrone when Dwayne Quinn and PJ Lavery left the squad, there was clearly some pressure on these lads from the club I feel. Lavery had actually been involved in most of the league games but I don't think he started any of them, Quinn only played against Cork but he was the first choice reserve corner back and was only an injury of suspension away from getting in. These two lads weren't willing to bide their time and at the end of the day it's up to the individual. Tyrone can withstand these kind of withdrawals but I don't think Armagh can.
In recent years, Armagh seem to have had a lot of the better players in the county not giving the commitment. I do think the potential is there for them to do much better than they have been. I don't think 2014 was a fluke run for them at all, they just happened to have the vast bulk of the best players fit and committed and were sticking to a good gameplan.
When I look at the Ulster teams over the last 5/6 years I feel that Derry, Armagh and Down should have been doing an awful lot better with the players in the county. There has been something wrong with these counties in terms of players not putting the commitment in that the other Ulster counties have got. You can point to Down and say that some of those players were getting on which they were and I think the future for them looks bleak as the players aren't there for them now.
Look at Down after 2010 for instance, it was probably that team's peak but they still had another window of 3-4 years where they could have got an Ulster Championship but a lot of those lads just seemed to pack it in after that, some of them with injury and others like they just had given the ghost up.
Guys like Rodgers, Gordon, McComiskey, King, Hughes, Rafferty (all top players)played very little county football after 2010 and as well as losing Marty Clarke it really put an end to them. Some of them were injuries but others seemed to just be commitment. Maybe it's harder for Ulster teams to see the light at the end of the tunnel because to win an Ulster title is so difficult. Down, Fermanagh, Donegal and Derry all made All Ireland semi-finals in the 2001-2010 period yet were never able to win a provincial title during that time. I think that might be a reason why some of these guys downed tools and called an early day on it.
Quote from: Il Bomber Destro on February 15, 2016, 12:31:27 AM
Guys like Rodgers, Gordon, McComiskey, King, Hughes, Rafferty (all top players)played very little county football after 2010 and as well as losing Marty Clarke...
Down lost a lot of players but apart from King every one you mentioned above was lost to injury or emigration, of our 2010 squad:
Gordon - Broken foot
Rafferty - Groin (never played again)
Garvey - Terrible eye injury at work
King - Accountancy exams and career demands
Fitzpatrick - Emigrated (but did return)
Hughes - Back injury
McComiskey - Slipped disc
John Clarke - retired
Marty Clarke - emigrated (Aussie rules)
Rodgers - Cruciate
Murtagh - Knee
Doyle - Knee
Only McVeigh, McCartan, McKernan, Poland, Coulter stayed as regulars. A load of those players above were in an out but never fully fit. Commitment was not the problem. Now a lot of time has passed but we are missing McComiskey, Gordon, King, McParland, Laverty who no longer want to play and that is a sad indictment of the attitude of recent managers and the style of football played. So now YES there is a commitment problem.
Would Armagh perhaps be heading down the same line? - First injuries causing teh problem then gradually the rubbish football approach combined with huge demands meaning commitment fading too? or perhaps too much is being made of one man's desire to live his life a bit.