Dublin camogie incensed by coin toss decision
23 July 2015
Dublin manager Shane O'Brien
Dublin camogie is up in arms after learning that its fate in this year's All-Ireland senior championship could be decided by the toss of a coin.
The Camogie Association confirmed last night that, if Clare beat Derry this weekend, they will draw lots to see if the Banner or Dublin will progress in the competition. The two teams are inseparable after the first two tie-breaking procedures following a 1-8 to 1-8 draw earlier in the competition.
Speaking on Morning Ireland today, Dublin boss Michael O'Brien said he feels for the players that have sacrificed so much to get this far in the competition.
"Obviously there was a huge amount of confusion in recent days with the lack of clarity regarding certain procedures," O'Brien said.
"I think there were different interpretations in different parts of the country. Down in Clare they were led to believe it was going to be done on goal difference and other people felt that it would be done by the toss of a coin.
"Obviously we're bitterly disappointed for the player's welfare, for the sacrifices the players have made."
He added: "To be honest, (the players) are distraught really. They've given so much of their time, made so many sacrifices.
"We've met together as a group 93 times (this season) and it's hugely disrespectful to the efforts the players have made. They've given up their lives for this competition and it's devaluing the competition at this stage."
Clare host Derry in Ennis on Saturday at 2.30pm, and in the event of a win for the home side the coin toss will take place immediately after the final whistle.
When is the coin toss on? I might go.
Its on at a tossers venue. Im sure youve been there before.
Interesting fact is that Dublin are still top of camogie roll of honour with 26 titles. They haven't won it since 1984.
'Nurses in the Mater' is clearly not as potent a force as it once was.
I think a lot of competitons eventually can come to a coin toss at some stage . i've a feeling in soccerball world cup group Qualification after about 10 tiebreakers come to a coin toss/ Its unfortunate but sometime it has to happen. a play off would seem to make much more sense even a midweek one if it would keep people happy
Could it not go to score difference or even a midweek playoff or something?
Dear Sirs,
Regarding the difficulty in selecting between Dublin and Clare in respect of progressing in the All-Ireland camogie championships, I have a suggestion. The captains of the two teams should mud-wrestle to determine which team goes forward.
I am pleased to be of assistance in this matter.
Yours sincerely,
Peter Alliss.
Just drove past the club, where Down are entertaining Cork in the intermediate camogie All-Ireland.
Both teams have decided to play in the same shade of red. Granted Down have black skirts on, but still it looks like an in house training match.
Why on earth would anyone get up at the crack of dawn and drive 200 miles to handicap themselves with clashing colours?
Why did you no stop and go in and ask them?
Quote from: Hardy on July 23, 2015, 06:34:29 PM
When is the coin toss on? I might go.
It's an all-ticket affair.
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0729/717890-dublin-and-clare-boycott-camogie-coin-toss/
The future of this season's All-Ireland senior camogie championship is in question after Dublin and Clare both pulled out of today's drawing of lots for a place in the All-Ireland quarter-finals.
Both sides finished their group games with equal points, while they played out a 1-08 to 1-08 draw earlier in the campaign, however, points' difference or a play-off were not a consideration to decide the rankings and instead the drawing of lots was due to decide who would progress.
The executives of the Dublin and Clare camogie board held a conference call last night, at which it was decided that both counties would withdraw their names from the drawing of lots, which was scheduled to take place at 9:30 this morning.
Both counties had lodged appeals, but in a lengthy statement yesterday the Camogie Association ruled that those appeals could not be heard as any decision taken by the the association's Ard Comhlaire cannot be appealed.
It said that under ''pre-determined procedures'' lots would be drawn this morning to decide who'll play Wexford in Saturday's quarter-final in Thurles.
A harshly worded statement from the Executive of the Clare County Board was scathing in its criticism of the Camogie Association.
"The Camogie Association has demonstrated their utter contempt and disdain for every player and member of the Association. How can a governing sporting body justify by any logic the Drawing of Lots(coin toss) to determine progression in Championship?," it read.
"Clare Camogie demands more respect for its players and administrators than what is being levelled at them by the Camogie Association officials.
"The decision by Ard Chomhairle not to adjudicate on the merit of Appeals lodged, shows the contempt with which the lower units of the Association are held.
"The upset and mental anguish that has been forced upon players by the Association, will have deep and long lasting repercussions. Players are inconsolable and feel betrayed."
"This is a regressive step for the Association and will be of detriment, not only to Clare and Dublin but to Camogie on whole. The Association have passed up an opportunity to address this fiasco with the appeals of both Clare and Dublin. Thus, in choosing not to do so have left it to Clare and Dublin to up-hold the sporting integrity of the Association," the statement concluded.
It's unclear how the Camogie Assocation will respond to this latest development.
Does anybody know why points' difference, score difference or a play-off was not used and whether counties were aware they wouldn't be used at the start of the competition?
A restructuring of the camogie championship is needed :P
In fairness though a coin toss to decide a winner is mad in this day and age, it wouldn't even come into consideration in Senior Hurling or Football.
Does the winner of the coin toss get a skiing holiday?
For all its failings please dont let it decline at the expense of ladies football which is the biggest load of tripe ever
Nonsense
The Camogie Association have confirmed that it is offering a play-off game to Clare and Dublin to take place on Saturday, August 1st at 2.00pm in Semple Stadium, Thurles.
The winners of this game will proceed to the quarter-final to play Wexford on Monday, August 3rd with a time and venue to be confirmed.
The Camogie Association Ard Chomhairle took the decision in order to find a solution to the impasse which arose after both Clare and Dublin Camogie Boards withdrew, after objecting to the pre-determined competition procedures to identify the fourth quarter-finalist in the Liberty Insurance Senior All-Ireland Championship.
Extra-time will be played in the event of the play-off ending in a draw, while extra-time will also apply in the Senior quarter-final on August 3rd.
They're in this situation because they didn't think of the all the possibilities; their solution doesn't address all the possibilities either. What happens if there is a draw after extra time?
Quote from: WeeDonns on July 29, 2015, 04:22:29 PM
They're in this situation because they didn't think of the all the possibilities; their solution doesn't address all the possibilities either. What happens if there is a draw after extra time?
A replay? Shocking that they didn't move back the Wexford game in the same breath as caving and giving a play-off to the two teams. Ladies' administrators care as much about player safety as the Mens' administrators do.
Surely it's an opportunity for the '65 puc off'
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 29, 2015, 04:00:33 PM
For all its failings please dont let it decline at the expense of ladies football which is the biggest load of tripe ever
I have no idea what possesses someone to make comments like that. Ladies football is (usually) a damn fun sport to watch.
Games between Cork & Dublin are good.
There's a huge drop-off in quality after those two though.
Quote from: Jinxy on July 29, 2015, 05:25:38 PM
Games between Cork & Dublin are good.
There's a huge drop-off in quality after those two though.
What about young Cora Staunton?
So many clueless comments on social media today, giving about the "GAA discriminating against women."
I hate dealing with camogie people in the club and county.
Thinking on almost everything is stuck in a parallel universe - coaching, fixtures, rules at blitzes.
Quote from: Syferus on July 29, 2015, 05:32:05 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 29, 2015, 05:25:38 PM
Games between Cork & Dublin are good.
There's a huge drop-off in quality after those two though.
What about young Cora Staunton?
Can score a goal or a point from anywhere, but cannot make a pass! No vision!
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 29, 2015, 10:06:21 PM
So many clueless comments on social media today, giving about the "GAA discriminating against women."
It's very unlike people on social media to be clueless about things.
Quote from: From the Bunker on July 30, 2015, 12:27:23 AM
Quote from: Syferus on July 29, 2015, 05:32:05 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 29, 2015, 05:25:38 PM
Games between Cork & Dublin are good.
There's a huge drop-off in quality after those two though.
What about young Cora Staunton?
Can score a goal or a point from anywhere, but cannot make a pass! No vision!
In fairness it's pretty clear she's a class apart from everyone around her. I imagine that's as much a symptom of having to score 9-12 in matches by herself as anything.. if she had the comfort of a few similarly talented players she'd probably be a much better passer.
I'm a bit torn on this one, it 100% centre should never have been a coin toss in the first place, from a purely mathematical point of view a coin toss isn't unbiased so one team would have had an advantage. That said all counties ratified these rules last year and as unfair as it might have been the rule should have been enforced, no point in changing it now that it actually has to be used. Feel sorry for both teams (with the winner playing twice in 48 hours) and Wexford now, still not knowing who they will be playing on Monday
Quote from: David McKeown on July 30, 2015, 01:34:56 AM
I'm a bit torn on this one, it 100% centre should never have been a coin toss in the first place, from a purely mathematical point of view a coin toss isn't unbiased so one team would have had an advantage. That said all counties ratified these rules last year and as unfair as it might have been the rule should have been enforced, no point in changing it now that it actually has to be used. Feel sorry for both teams (with the winner playing twice in 48 hours) and Wexford now, still not knowing who they will be playing on Monday
Agree with this. Drawing lots (wasn't a coin toss) was a daft way of deciding the issue but as David says this was ratified by all counties. Perhaps the real lesson here is for Camogie county boards to engage with the running of camogie at national level rather than sleep walking through it. I have sympathy for the players but the counties involved have some neck complaining about something they voted in, if only by not bothering their arses engaging in the process at all.
Quote from: Zulu on July 30, 2015, 07:06:30 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 30, 2015, 01:34:56 AM
I'm a bit torn on this one, it 100% centre should never have been a coin toss in the first place, from a purely mathematical point of view a coin toss isn't unbiased so one team would have had an advantage. That said all counties ratified these rules last year and as unfair as it might have been the rule should have been enforced, no point in changing it now that it actually has to be used. Feel sorry for both teams (with the winner playing twice in 48 hours) and Wexford now, still not knowing who they will be playing on Monday
Agree with this. Drawing lots (wasn't a coin toss) was a daft way of deciding the issue but as David says this was ratified by all counties. Perhaps the real lesson here is for Camogie county boards to engage with the running of camogie at national level rather than sleep walking through it. I have sympathy for the players but the counties involved have some neck complaining about something they voted in, if only by not bothering their arses engaging in the process at all.
I don't think it was ratified by all Camogie CB's at all, it was ratified by the Camogie Ard Comhairle.
To say the rules were there for all to see on their website since November 2014 doesn't necessarily mean that all County camogie boards actually knew about it.
Quote from: Sidney on July 30, 2015, 12:35:28 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on July 29, 2015, 10:06:21 PM
So many clueless comments on social media today, giving about the "GAA discriminating against women."
It's very unlike people on social media to be clueless about things.
Not just social media it seems, the Independent have an article on it today with Páraic Duffy's boat race at the head of it, SFA to do with Páraic.
Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2015, 08:13:39 AM
Quote from: Zulu on July 30, 2015, 07:06:30 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 30, 2015, 01:34:56 AM
I'm a bit torn on this one, it 100% centre should never have been a coin toss in the first place, from a purely mathematical point of view a coin toss isn't unbiased so one team would have had an advantage. That said all counties ratified these rules last year and as unfair as it might have been the rule should have been enforced, no point in changing it now that it actually has to be used. Feel sorry for both teams (with the winner playing twice in 48 hours) and Wexford now, still not knowing who they will be playing on Monday
Agree with this. Drawing lots (wasn't a coin toss) was a daft way of deciding the issue but as David says this was ratified by all counties. Perhaps the real lesson here is for Camogie county boards to engage with the running of camogie at national level rather than sleep walking through it. I have sympathy for the players but the counties involved have some neck complaining about something they voted in, if only by not bothering their arses engaging in the process at all.
I don't think it was ratified by all Camogie CB's at all, it was ratified by the Camogie Ard Comhairle.
To say the rules were there for all to see on their website since November 2014 doesn't necessarily mean that all County camogie boards actually knew about it.
A lady from the Camogie Association was on R1 earlier in the week and said that the rule change (before this year, there would have been a play-off but to better accommodate club games, they wanted to condense the season and so did away with them) was proposed by the Ard Comhairle and then circulated for review to all CBs, only one of whom reverted with any comments (she didn't say what county or what the comment was) before being accepted (not sure what the voting process is)
If what she's saying is correct, then it seems like it's the various county boards who are in the wrong rather than the Ard Comhairle
somebody literally had to write the line though "in the case of a draw sure we'll flick a coin..." ...
ach c'mere like, and a week ago this was the same group complainin about not bein taken more seriously and deserving equal recognition/prize/exposure ... well they've sure got the exposure now over this hames of an incident, making a joke of the sport.
You know when people say things like, "This would never happen if a woman was running the country/banks etc."?
Turns out women are just as capable of making an utter balls of things as men are.
Quote from: macdanger2 on July 30, 2015, 09:13:39 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on July 30, 2015, 08:13:39 AM
Quote from: Zulu on July 30, 2015, 07:06:30 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 30, 2015, 01:34:56 AM
I'm a bit torn on this one, it 100% centre should never have been a coin toss in the first place, from a purely mathematical point of view a coin toss isn't unbiased so one team would have had an advantage. That said all counties ratified these rules last year and as unfair as it might have been the rule should have been enforced, no point in changing it now that it actually has to be used. Feel sorry for both teams (with the winner playing twice in 48 hours) and Wexford now, still not knowing who they will be playing on Monday
Agree with this. Drawing lots (wasn't a coin toss) was a daft way of deciding the issue but as David says this was ratified by all counties. Perhaps the real lesson here is for Camogie county boards to engage with the running of camogie at national level rather than sleep walking through it. I have sympathy for the players but the counties involved have some neck complaining about something they voted in, if only by not bothering their arses engaging in the process at all.
I don't think it was ratified by all Camogie CB's at all, it was ratified by the Camogie Ard Comhairle.
To say the rules were there for all to see on their website since November 2014 doesn't necessarily mean that all County camogie boards actually knew about it.
A lady from the Camogie Association was on R1 earlier in the week and said that the rule change (before this year, there would have been a play-off but to better accommodate club games, they wanted to condense the season and so did away with them) was proposed by the Ard Comhairle and then circulated for review to all CBs, only one of whom reverted with any comments (she didn't say what county or what the comment was) before being accepted (not sure what the voting process is)
If what she's saying is correct, then it seems like it's the various county boards who are in the wrong rather than the Ard Comhairle
the camogie board women was making one valid point is that people should know what they are voting for ,
Its not an excuse to comeback and say 'I wasn't paying attention to that bit' and try and lump the blame on the peole you gave Authority to implement the rules you Voted for ...
any way if its level art the end of extra time saturday , will LOTS still be drawn?
Quote from: Jinxy on July 30, 2015, 11:44:36 AM
You know when people say things like, "This would never happen if a woman was running the country/banks etc."?
Turns out women are just as capable of making an utter balls of things as men are.
and guess what? us men are the problem according to alot of women,apparently this wouldnt happen in mens gaa!!! the ignorance of some women on this topic is staggering and they have a really big chip on there shoulder... build a f**king bridge and get over it... errrr
Quote from: cockahoop on July 30, 2015, 02:12:18 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 30, 2015, 11:44:36 AM
You know when people say things like, "This would never happen if a woman was running the country/banks etc."?
Turns out women are just as capable of making an utter balls of things as men are.
and guess what? us men are the problem according to alot of women,apparently this wouldnt happen in mens gaa!!! the ignorance of some women on this topic is staggering and they have a really big chip on there shoulder... build a f**king bridge and get over it... errrr
In fairness if you'd been oppressed for 8000 years you'd have a fair chip on your shoulder too.
We've got enough of a chip on our shoulder about being oppressed by England for 800 sodding years..
Quote from: Syferus on July 30, 2015, 02:30:43 PM
Quote from: cockahoop on July 30, 2015, 02:12:18 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on July 30, 2015, 11:44:36 AM
You know when people say things like, "This would never happen if a woman was running the country/banks etc."?
Turns out women are just as capable of making an utter balls of things as men are.
and guess what? us men are the problem according to alot of women,apparently this wouldnt happen in mens gaa!!! the ignorance of some women on this topic is staggering and they have a really big chip on there shoulder... build a f**king bridge and get over it... errrr
In fairness if you'd been oppressed for 8000 years you'd have a fair chip on your shoulder too.
We've got enough of a chip on our shoulder about being oppressed by England for 800 sodding years..
aye i know what your saying...if it wasnt for that b**tard cromwell our club would have won the championship by now!!!
Quote from: Zulu on July 29, 2015, 03:05:28 PM
Does anybody know why points' difference, score difference or a play-off was not used and whether counties were aware they wouldn't be used at the start of the competition?
From memory of the interview on newstalk:
Head to head was the first differentiator but that game finished in a draw.
Next concerned who scored the most goals in that drawn match.
Next (bizarrely) who scored the most points in that drawn match. (Sure if there was no difference in goals scored and the match was drawn the points scored would be the same)
Then coin toss.
not saying they should APE soccer or anything but
here are the WC Tie breakers
1. Greatest number of points obtained in all group matches.
2. Goal difference in all group matches.
3. Greatest number of goals scored in all group matches.
4. Greatest number of points obtained in the group matches between the teams concerned.
5. Goal difference resulting from the group matches between the teams concerned.
6. Greater number of goals scored in all group matches between the teams concerned.
7. Drawing of lots by the FIFA Organizing Committee.
OR the Egg chasers use
The winner of the match between the two teams (would not apply if more than two teams were tied);
Difference between points scored for and points scored against in all pool matches;
Difference between tries scored for and tries scored against in all pool matches;
Points scored in all pool matches;
Most tries scored in all pool matches;
Official IRB World Rankings ( is this any fairer seeing as the point is to decide who is best)
Well done Clare and Dublin for standing your ground. Even after today's playoff there was very little between you both. Dublin 1-11 Clare 0-12.
http://www.the42.ie/dublin-clare-camogie-all-ireland-play-off-2248439-Aug2015/ (http://www.the42.ie/dublin-clare-camogie-all-ireland-play-off-2248439-Aug2015/)
Quote from: The Hill is Blue on August 01, 2015, 05:04:23 PM
Well done Clare and Dublin for standing your ground. Even after today's playoff there was very little between you both. Dublin 1-11 Clare 0-12.
http://www.the42.ie/dublin-clare-camogie-all-ireland-play-off-2248439-Aug2015/ (http://www.the42.ie/dublin-clare-camogie-all-ireland-play-off-2248439-Aug2015/)
Dublin are fûcked having to play two days later though. Ironically a coin toss would have given the winners a far better chance of not being one and done.
This seems like a strange appeal, particularly on the grounds of the ET, is it not normally "at least X minutes....". Hard to see the appeal being upheld
Wexford appeal result of Camogie semi-final
Wexford have launched an appeal against the result of their All-Ireland Camogie Senior Championship semi-final defeat to Galway last weekend.
The Wexford Camogie board confirmed to RTÉ Sport that it was appealing on two grounds: the failure to award a legitimate point to their side in the first half and referee Cathal Egan's decision to play two and a half minutes more than the four minutes of additional time signalled at the end of the game.
Niamh McGrath scored a 45 in the seventh minute of additional time to secure a 1-14 to 2-10 victory for Galway that saw them book their place in the All-Ireland final against Cork.
Wexford believe video evidence shows a 45 that the umpires awarded was incorrectly ruled wide by the referee (rule 41.5) and that he played the wrong amount of time (rule 41.6).
A point incorrectly awarded is no basis for a reply either. Have a video ref on the day if you want, but reversing games afterwards would be chaos.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 19, 2015, 06:02:36 PM
A point incorrectly awarded is no basis for a reply either. Have a video ref on the day if you want, but reversing games afterwards would be chaos.
We had at least 2 instances in the GAA of replays on the basis of incorrectly flagged scores/wides. I think it was Laois and Carlow in one of them..