Would this not be a better thread than the alternative one currently running.
Where are the areas and clubs who are getting it tight, what are the reasons?, how can they be helped?
The criteria would need to include membership,facilities,finances and also which clubs cant operate freely because of intimiadtion etc.
I wouldnt be too worried about results if clubs are making an effort to field but id be worried if clubs were struggling to field
There are two issues here, intimidation, often in urban areas and small rural parishes where the population is declining, the latter mostly in the west where intimidation is less.
In Derry some of the small clubs have amalgamated underage due to lack of numbers. In the city progress is being made against the incessant and overpowering tide of soccer. A lot of the non city clubs underestimate what the city clubs have to contend with by saying "sure we have a parish of few hundred against your thousands". Its not comparing apples with apples. I have played hurling in Derry City for a long time and it has to be a full time 24/7 passion to make it work. But there are places who have it worse.
There must be 30 soccer clubs in Derry City , the schools have their own leagues, most of the teachers come from a soccer background. People are like sheep, especially children and if you mix that in with the media you can see how hard it is to compete.
Good thread; in light of that other "affront" of mine.
Amalgamations are sometimes hard to judge, some clubs just have a tradition of doing it regardless of numbers while others are just hellbent on silverware.
Taking Armagh at minor level as an example, there are 6 amalgamated teams, so that's at least 12 clubs unable to field a minor team solo; and some of them are even made up of three clubs. It's an odd scenario as a lot of the clubs who make up the amalgamated teams are Division 1/2 at senior level. It would seem Armagh has too many clubs for a small county, and too many small ones at that.
I would say if there was a general trend across Ulster in terms of needing attention it would be the urban clubs that need Looked at. Like you say numbers mean nothing if they're playing soccer and I'm sure the example you gave in Derry City apply equally in North and West Belfast and to a lesser extent towns like Lurgan, Downpatrick and Newry. You have to go back at least 20 years for the last time a championship was won in those towns.
Is there any town that can match Lurgan for number of GAA clubs?
Clan Na Gael
St Peters
St Paul's
Eire Og
Clann Eireann
Sarsfields
Wolfe Tones
Quote from: T Fearon on July 21, 2015, 07:45:21 PM
Is there any town that can match Lurgan for number of GAA clubs?
Clan Na Gael
St Peters
St Paul's
Eire Og
Clann Eireann
Sarsfields
Wolfe Tones
Eire Og people (Craigavon) will get all uppity being asked what part of Lurgan they're from, ditto Wolfe Tone's (Derrymacash). Sarsfields (Derrytrasna)... They will as well, but half their team genuinely is from Lurgan.
You forgot Sean Tracey's and could also include Magheralin and Aghagallon who are both closer than Trasna albeit different counties - again they will get uppity.
If all those Lurgan teams amalgamated into one super club,you'd never hear of Crossmaglen again
Quote from: T Fearon on July 21, 2015, 08:40:05 PM
If all those Lurgan teams amalgamated into one super club,you'd never hear of Crossmaglen again
I tell ye what tony, head down to Franci Street and suggest that, see what response you get?
Though that would get a bite! ;D
There are really 4 lurgan clubs, the 2 Sts, Clans and Clanns. The town has a population of around 17000 Catholics which if you divide it evenly then that's a bigger potential pick then most clubs have. Obviously there are different dynamics in towns but they really should be doing better than they are and shouldn't need amalgamation to beat Cross!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 21, 2015, 09:46:44 PM
There are really 4 lurgan clubs, the 2 Sts, Clans and Clanns. The town has a population of around 17000 Catholics which if you divide it evenly then that's a bigger potential pick then most clubs have. Obviously there are different dynamics in towns but they really should be doing better than they are and shouldn't need amalgamation to beat Cross!
I agree (to an extent) but I don't know where you get the 17k from.
The Lurgan clubs may have big catchment areas but the reality is apart from Clann Eireann (who have massive membership) the Lurgan clubs are quite small.
A lot of people in Lurgan will claim a vague connection to a club without actually playing or being an active member. That's probably why there are so many at Armagh games come championship time. GAA in Lurgan isn't dying but it needs one hell of a shot up the arse, no different to most provincial towns in the north.
Those of us of a certain vintage remember the great Clan Na Gael team of the mid 70s, so unlucky in the All Ireland Club Final more than 20 years before Crossmaglen reached their first final,and with a team of lads from Francis Street.They didn't have to steal players from other clubs like Crossmaglen did.Great team,Smith,Mc Kinstry,Mc Kerr,O'Hagans,Crewe,Scullion.Arguably they sparked off the Renaissance of the County team as well,culminating in the All Ireland Final appearance in 1977
i have always contended that Lurgan town has a very strong tradition of GAA. In any one week in June when all games are at full flow as many as 800 to 1000 boys and girls men and women are involved directly in our games be it as a player, a coach or a club official. I have coached for many years in that area and Lurgan has like many other areas some of the most dedicated GAA men I have met.
In the earlier days teams in Lurgan were centered and based in certain areas ie if you were from the Freecrow area you played for the Peters ,Kilwilkie Clann Eireann, Francis Street ,Clan NA gael and Taghnavan St Pauls. While the grounds are still all located in those areas new housing developments and pop. movement has seen this change slightly . Tradition remains strong and family ties to a club dictate who you play for.
Like any other town or city the struggle really begins at 16 plus where lifestyle takes over more so than soccer. I could pick an excellent team of young lads of 18 plus that don't kick a ball anymore.
St Pauls have a superb set up facility wise as do the other clubs and they work tirelessly to keep the tradition going. Yes I agree that the teams are not as strong at underage level or senior as they once were but it's not through lack of effort.
I'm a Clan na Gael man and am really disappointed they way we've fell down the pecking order recently and the benchmark is Crossmaglen (not just Armagh). We are an intermediate club at present and that's exactly our level at this time but I can tell you this for certain that Clan na Gael will start to progress over the next few years and within 4-5 years we will be back up to senior. I can see the progress at our club from 16's down and the numbers we have at present are excellent at underage. I know that doesn't guarantee you anything but it's def looking better that what we've had over the last few years...The great Clan na Gael teams of the 70's & 80's were special alright but I think it was a bit of a burden of the teams over the last 10-15 years, the pressure the senior teams were under from those supporters and players who played and supported them great teams demanded the same success but never delivered...(big pressure)
Clann Eireann look to be heading in the right direction and have the best 16's & 18's teams in the county, I expect them to be in senior league next year and If they can stay up for a year or two and them young lads come thru they'll be a serious outfit. (Clann Eireann have always had decent teams at underage but could never really get them thru into senior but this bunch look a different breed).
Quote from: illdecide on July 22, 2015, 09:33:39 AM
I'm a Clan na Gael man and am really disappointed they way we've fell down the pecking order recently and the benchmark is Crossmaglen (not just Armagh). We are an intermediate club at present and that's exactly our level at this time but I can tell you this for certain that Clan na Gael will start to progress over the next few years and within 4-5 years we will be back up to senior. I can see the progress at our club from 16's down and the numbers we have at present are excellent at underage. I know that doesn't guarantee you anything but it's def looking better that what we've had over the last few years...The great Clan na Gael teams of the 70's & 80's were special alright but I think it was a bit of a burden of the teams over the last 10-15 years, the pressure the senior teams were under from those supporters and players who played and supported them great teams demanded the same success but never delivered...(big pressure)
Clann Eireann look to be heading in the right direction and have the best 16's & 18's teams in the county, I expect them to be in senior league next year and If they can stay up for a year or two and them young lads come thru they'll be a serious outfit. (Clann Eireann have always had decent teams at underage but could never really get them thru into senior but this bunch look a different breed).
I'd say your teams would feel the same sort of internal club pressure as we did at the start as we were always compared to the team of the 60's that won 7 out of 10. They would have won Ulster as well if it has been in existence as they won many invitational competitions which were the vogue at the time. The constant reminders from old boys at the club bar that you'll never be as good as the team of the 60's drove us on and I'm sure the same thing happens in Clans. CE are doing rightly but the have a big fall off from 16 to 19 and I would imagine that a lot of clubs are feeling that. Young lads that are good at that age but playing soccer or rugby or just have a car and a few quid say might say to themselves that why should we bother, Cross are winning senior anyway. It won't always be the case but it's easier for us to retain players than it is for other clubs.
General Lee, the 17k is from the census figures. It's only a potential figure. There are approximately 2k people round Cross but not all of them is involved in the club so that's the comparison I'm using it against.
Fearon piss aff :P
I took our U15 team to a tournament in Dromintee last Sunday and Clan na Gael and Clann Eireann were the only two teams from Lurgan who could field a team( I know U15 is a bad age). Have to say it was a good feeling going back to a senior ground again.
Don't think I've been up in Cross in about 4-5 years...Always loved going up to play the Black & Amber too
Quote from: illdecide on July 22, 2015, 11:03:22 AM
I took our U15 team to a tournament in Dromintee last Sunday and Clan na Gael and Clann Eireann were the only two teams from Lurgan who could field a team( I know U15 is a bad age). Have to say it was a good feeling going back to a senior ground again.
Don't think I've been up in Cross in about 4-5 years...Always loved going up to play the Black & Amber too
have to say clan eireann are making great strides at under age level, hope they can keep their teams together
Quote
General Lee, the 17k is from the census figures. It's only a potential figure. There are approximately 2k people round Cross but not all of them is involved in the club so that's the comparison I'm using it against.
Sorry I thought 17k a bit generous but it might not be far off the mark. What's the story in other counties trying to think of urban clubs that are in and around winning their championship... Omagh, Letterkenny, Coleraine, St Gall's... There wouldn't be many more?
Quote from: general_lee on July 22, 2015, 11:21:21 AM
Quote
General Lee, the 17k is from the census figures. It's only a potential figure. There are approximately 2k people round Cross but not all of them is involved in the club so that's the comparison I'm using it against.
Sorry I thought 17k a bit generous but it might not be far off the mark. What's the story in other counties trying to think of urban clubs that are in and around winning their championship... Omagh, Letterkenny, Coleraine, St Gall's... There wouldn't be many more?
Letterkenny are flying at underage in both football and hurling(they have 2 hurling clubs now, albeit one is much stronger than the other). I am not so sure they can be compared to towns in occupied 6. In the republic the schools are much more tuned in. I cant speak for the football in Letterkenny but certainly with the hurling a lot of their success has its foundations built on guys who have moved to letterkenny as part of their jobs from the hurling heartlands in munster etc.
10 years ago when we played them you might have had only 2-3 Donegal men, now they are all almost Donegal.
Coleraine deserve massive credit. The McGoldricks and their in-laws(Caseys/Hollys both from Derry City) form a massive part of their senior squads. I think there are 5 McGoldrick sons all now on the senior hurling and football squads plus 2 cousins.
All they need every year is 2 minors added into this, and it must be said they are particularly good at getting lads through.
Without the McGoldricks I dont think the success would have come as quick, but they will be there or there abouts as a strong club for many years to come
I would say the top 3 things that put clubs under pressure are:
- Soccer
- Integrated Education
- Lack of local Employment
I think Lurgan has a Catholic population of 12000 - 13000 not including the satellite villages so sustaining the 4 town football and 1 hurling club is quite an achievement.
Although there must be two dozen soccer clubs in the town I wouldn't have thought this hampers the GAA clubs as for the vast majority of people who play both the GAA club comes first. There won't be any senior championship wins around Lurgan anytime soon, but I would be surprised if any of the clubs are in trouble financially or being able to field. Sustaining all of the clubs is a testament to the GAA tradition in Lurgan!
Could a Lurgan amalgamated team challenge Cross? Very unlikely I would think!
I am sure there are many urban clubs throughout Ulster that do very well - Omagh obviously winning senior in Tyrone last year and Dungannon winning intermediate.
lol >:(
Quote from: general_lee on July 22, 2015, 11:21:21 AM
Quote
General Lee, the 17k is from the census figures. It's only a potential figure. There are approximately 2k people round Cross but not all of them is involved in the club so that's the comparison I'm using it against.
Sorry I thought 17k a bit generous but it might not be far off the mark. What's the story in other counties trying to think of urban clubs that are in and around winning their championship... Omagh, Letterkenny, Coleraine, St Gall's... There wouldn't be many more?
we've won the County Championship far too many times in the past 12/13years, fire in two All Ireland appearances and one win and with a senior hurling team too we haven't done too bad as a West Belfast club... but that a great set of players we have brought through and like all clubs it will stop, the hardest thing to do as a successful club is preparing for the next generation of players coming through.... take your eye off the ball for a second and potentially you will miss out..
In Belfast there are way too many clubs, but they all have their own identities and very very reluctant to give them up, yeah there are teams joining together at juvenile levels to accommodate but none of them will do well...
Hats off to all club members that do their bit, been there done that and its the most thankless tasks, harder for me to get back into it, my two girls aren't interested so its hard to find the enthusiasm so its no surprise that some clubs fall down
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
Use to coach a fella at Magee from Larne. He wore shinpads to first session. Anyway they have a hurling club up there which he trains with. Must be tight up there.
Quote from: rrhf on July 22, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
If you want ;). Lurgan was used just to show it's unique as there are not too many towns out there of that size that has as many GAA clubs (not to mention the soccer clubs). Omagh would be similar to Lurgan in size but i'd say would have a larger nationalist population yet the only club in Omagh is St Enda's but I suppose you could include Killyclougher which is on the outskirts.
Quote from: illdecide on July 23, 2015, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 22, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
If you want ;). Lurgan was used just to show it's unique as there are not too many towns out there of that size that has as many GAA clubs (not to mention the soccer clubs). Omagh would be similar to Lurgan in size but i'd say would have a larger nationalist population yet the only club in Omagh is St Enda's but I suppose you could include Killyclougher which is on the outskirts.
Omagh has effectively three clubs to supply. Parish of Drumragh has St Enda's and Drumragh, although Drumragh's new pitch is well outside the town. Parish of Cappagh has Killyclogher. Is there any parish divides in Lurgan town? Still large amounts of the "nationalist population" in Omagh who would have limited interest, although would follow the county team when they are going well.
Quote from: Fear Bun Na Sceilpe on July 22, 2015, 12:00:28 PM
Quote from: general_lee on July 22, 2015, 11:21:21 AM
Quote
General Lee, the 17k is from the census figures. It's only a potential figure. There are approximately 2k people round Cross but not all of them is involved in the club so that's the comparison I'm using it against.
Sorry I thought 17k a bit generous but it might not be far off the mark. What's the story in other counties trying to think of urban clubs that are in and around winning their championship... Omagh, Letterkenny, Coleraine, St Gall's... There wouldn't be many more?
Coleraine deserve massive credit. The McGoldricks and their in-laws(Caseys/Hollys both from Derry City) form a massive part of their senior squads. I think there are 5 McGoldrick sons all now on the senior hurling and football squads plus 2 cousins.
All they need every year is 2 minors added into this, and it must be said they are particularly good at getting lads through.
Without the McGoldricks I dont think the success would have come as quick, but they will be there or there abouts as a strong club for many years to come
Obviously they didn't do it all themselves but the work done by the McGoldricks in Coleraine is phenomenal. They would still be a middling junior/intermediate club without the influence from them. 20 years of work there.
Quote from: oakleafgael on July 23, 2015, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 23, 2015, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 22, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
If you want ;). Lurgan was used just to show it's unique as there are not too many towns out there of that size that has as many GAA clubs (not to mention the soccer clubs). Omagh would be similar to Lurgan in size but i'd say would have a larger nationalist population yet the only club in Omagh is St Enda's but I suppose you could include Killyclougher which is on the outskirts.
Omagh has effectively three clubs to supply. Parish of Drumragh has St Enda's and Drumragh, although Drumragh's new pitch is well outside the town. Parish of Cappagh has Killyclogher. Is there any parish divides in Lurgan town? Still large amounts of the "nationalist population" in Omagh who would have limited interest, although would follow the county team when they are going well.
there are two parishes but there is no "parish rule". Two clubs in St Peter's (plus the hurling club) and two in St Paul's, but you can play for whoever you want really regardless of what part of town you are. There would be people in town that play for for Sarsfields, Aghagallon (Antrim) and Magheralin (Down). Sean Tracey's hurling club caters for pretty much all of North Armagh as Portadown's team is no longer running. So bit of a free for all, clubs still have their traditional territories but they are pretty much irrelevant as Lurgan has expanded so much in the last 20 years.
Strabane would have a very large nationalist population and yet they have only the one team, although again there would be players from Strabane at other clubs outside the town.
Quote from: nrico2006 on July 23, 2015, 10:27:49 AM
Strabane would have a very large nationalist population and yet they have only the one team, although again there would be players from Strabane at other clubs outside the town.
The Roes take a bit of Strabane too. Derry Rd, some of Rsilway Rd, where ASDA is and some of Curley Hill.
Quote from: oakleafgael on July 23, 2015, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 23, 2015, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 22, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
If you want ;). Lurgan was used just to show it's unique as there are not too many towns out there of that size that has as many GAA clubs (not to mention the soccer clubs). Omagh would be similar to Lurgan in size but i'd say would have a larger nationalist population yet the only club in Omagh is St Enda's but I suppose you could include Killyclougher which is on the outskirts.
Omagh has effectively three clubs to supply. Parish of Drumragh has St Enda's and Drumragh, although Drumragh's new pitch is well outside the town. Parish of Cappagh has Killyclogher. Is there any parish divides in Lurgan town? Still large amounts of the "nationalist population" in Omagh who would have limited interest, although would follow the county team when they are going well.
St Endas would be the main deal in the town, although Killyclogher would also take some players, (and viseversa!) their ptich is positioned with the intention of taking players from the Hositpal road ;). Drumragh of course also takes some townies. There is Tattyreagh of course as well which is in Drumragh parish but it does take a trickle (not many tho) from the town.
Interesting fact about Parish boundaries is that Omaghs pitch is actually in Cappagh (killyclogher) parish.
On another note I think the town could facilitate another club. GAA has definitely taken over from soccer as the main sport in the town and the numbers of youth players are a great example of this. Unfortunately many fade away when the boozzin starts and/or if they not gonna make it to the St Enda's seniors, but another club could help with the interest and there is no doubt the town could facilitate it.
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 24, 2015, 10:00:33 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on July 23, 2015, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 23, 2015, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 22, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
If you want ;). Lurgan was used just to show it's unique as there are not too many towns out there of that size that has as many GAA clubs (not to mention the soccer clubs). Omagh would be similar to Lurgan in size but i'd say would have a larger nationalist population yet the only club in Omagh is St Enda's but I suppose you could include Killyclougher which is on the outskirts.
Omagh has effectively three clubs to supply. Parish of Drumragh has St Enda's and Drumragh, although Drumragh's new pitch is well outside the town. Parish of Cappagh has Killyclogher. Is there any parish divides in Lurgan town? Still large amounts of the "nationalist population" in Omagh who would have limited interest, although would follow the county team when they are going well.
St Endas would be the main deal in the town, although Killyclogher would also take some players, (and viseversa!) their ptich is positioned with the intention of taking players from the Hositpal road ;). Drumragh of course also takes some townies. There is Tattyreagh of course as well which is in Drumragh parish but it does take a trickle (not many tho) from the town.
Interesting fact about Parish boundaries is that Omaghs pitch is actually in Cappagh (killyclogher) parish.
On another note I think the town could facilitate another club. GAA has definitely taken over from soccer as the main sport in the town and the numbers of youth players are a great example of this. Unfortunately many fade away when the boozzin starts and/or if they not gonna make it to the St Enda's seniors, but another club could help with the interest and there is no doubt the town could facilitate it.
Surprising that the likes of St Endas don't field a 3RD's team like Errigal, knew that about the pitch alright. Didn't know that about Tattyreagh, so that's 3 clubs in the parish then. Hard for the urban clubs to keep the interest alright, same for the rural clubs too. It will be interesting to see how Dungannon fair out now over the next while. Back into Senior after falling all the way to Junior and with their underage flying. Into the Minor A championship final and with an U14 team that won both Feile and Championship. Some unusual names on their teamsheets which is a good thing to see.
Quote from: oakleafgael on July 24, 2015, 10:14:27 PM
Quote from: omaghjoe on July 24, 2015, 10:00:33 PM
Quote from: oakleafgael on July 23, 2015, 09:26:44 AM
Quote from: illdecide on July 23, 2015, 09:15:09 AM
Quote from: rrhf on July 22, 2015, 11:37:52 PM
Should we stick this into the Armagh thread..
If you want ;). Lurgan was used just to show it's unique as there are not too many towns out there of that size that has as many GAA clubs (not to mention the soccer clubs). Omagh would be similar to Lurgan in size but i'd say would have a larger nationalist population yet the only club in Omagh is St Enda's but I suppose you could include Killyclougher which is on the outskirts.
Omagh has effectively three clubs to supply. Parish of Drumragh has St Enda's and Drumragh, although Drumragh's new pitch is well outside the town. Parish of Cappagh has Killyclogher. Is there any parish divides in Lurgan town? Still large amounts of the "nationalist population" in Omagh who would have limited interest, although would follow the county team when they are going well.
St Endas would be the main deal in the town, although Killyclogher would also take some players, (and viseversa!) their ptich is positioned with the intention of taking players from the Hositpal road ;). Drumragh of course also takes some townies. There is Tattyreagh of course as well which is in Drumragh parish but it does take a trickle (not many tho) from the town.
Interesting fact about Parish boundaries is that Omaghs pitch is actually in Cappagh (killyclogher) parish.
On another note I think the town could facilitate another club. GAA has definitely taken over from soccer as the main sport in the town and the numbers of youth players are a great example of this. Unfortunately many fade away when the boozzin starts and/or if they not gonna make it to the St Enda's seniors, but another club could help with the interest and there is no doubt the town could facilitate it.
Surprising that the likes of St Endas don't field a 3RD's team like Errigal, knew that about the pitch alright. Didn't know that about Tattyreagh, so that's 3 clubs in the parish then. Hard for the urban clubs to keep the interest alright, same for the rural clubs too. It will be interesting to see how Dungannon fair out now over the next while. Back into Senior after falling all the way to Junior and with their underage flying. Into the Minor A championship final and with an U14 team that won both Feile and Championship. Some unusual names on their teamsheets which is a good thing to see.
Yeah b4 Drumragh built their pitch the Tatts was the only pitch in the parish. Tatts are a powerful club always admired them as despite the odd bit of players drifting in from the larger areas they have a very small pick.
2nd club would be teh way to go nothing would drum up support and interest with the townies like a proper town rival to St Endas. A new club based in the CBS training pitch there would be they way to go. Its how Drumragh got started and you got all that new housing in Coolnaguard and the Dromore road estates....it might even tempt the McMahons?
Dungannon GAA is a bit of a conudrum. When they were down in Div 3 alls you heard was that hurling was taken over and now both appear to be very strong, good to see, also good to see the new residents taking up GAA, must be a healthy proportion of Dungannon's population now.
Can't see a second team happening in Omagh I'm afraid.there would be little or no support for it. Omagh and killyclogher have b teams all the way up minor level every year so they should def try it out I'd imagine. Omagh have to b the worst supported team I've ever seen. I've seen league games were they hadn't 20 supporters at the game and them at home in Healy.
Quote from: illdecide on July 22, 2015, 09:33:39 AM
I'm a Clan na Gael man and am really disappointed they way we've fell down the pecking order recently and the benchmark is Crossmaglen (not just Armagh). We are an intermediate club at present and that's exactly our level at this time but I can tell you this for certain that Clan na Gael will start to progress over the next few years and within 4-5 years we will be back up to senior. I can see the progress at our club from 16's down and the numbers we have at present are excellent at underage. I know that doesn't guarantee you anything but it's def looking better that what we've had over the last few years...The great Clan na Gael teams of the 70's & 80's were special alright but I think it was a bit of a burden of the teams over the last 10-15 years, the pressure the senior teams were under from those supporters and players who played and supported them great teams demanded the same success but never delivered...(big pressure)
Clann Eireann look to be heading in the right direction and have the best 16's & 18's teams in the county, I expect them to be in senior league next year and If they can stay up for a year or two and them young lads come thru they'll be a serious outfit. (Clann Eireann have always had decent teams at underage but could never really get them thru into senior but this bunch look a different breed).
You not a Peters man sa?