Sad news coming from California. RIP.
http://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/us/several-irish-dead-as-balcony-in-california-collapses-1.2251255
Jesus that sounds horrendous. RIP to them, God help their families. Probably over on J1s a lot of them. Muck Savage, are you near there?
News now stating all 5 dead were Irish.
Awful news.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 16, 2015, 01:06:40 PM
Jesus that sounds horrendous. RIP to them, God help their families. Probably over on J1s a lot of them. Muck Savage, are you near there?
they were
QuoteIrish Victims were celebrating a 21st birthday party when the apartment balcony collapsed in Berkeley. Victims here on work visa for summer.
All the injured are Irish too it seems. Looks like just too many people out on the balcony and it detached from the wall. Jesus. God help their families back here.
Terrible tragedy and could be from any community in Ireland.
If they J1 students you'd expect that they are all Irish. RIP.
Shocking. Spent a week up in Berkley when I did my J1 in San Diego back in 2007.
RIP
news feed here...
http://abc7news.com/live/ (http://abc7news.com/live/)
I saw a lad in a Fermanagh jersey chatting to some people outside in the background. Looks like a classic irish student apartment.
Ye never really think about numbers on balcony's I suppose.
13 (5+8) on it, would that be considered overloading?
Frig maybe it shouldn't be discussed now.
Look like small balconies, so maybe 14 people was too many. Could be exacerbated if people were dancing or jumping around at a party. Poor kids. Hope the rest pull through.
There only looks to be 2 balconies on the whole building - there was maybe people on each balcony?
(http://i.imgur.com/mTP4XKu.jpg)
Awful sad for the families
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 16, 2015, 02:06:41 PM
There only looks to be 2 balconies on the whole building - there was maybe people on each balcony?
(http://i.imgur.com/mTP4XKu.jpg)
Just noticed that.
From other pics it looks like their balcony swung down ninety degrees on to the balcony below and threw everyone from there down to the footpath.
It looks like they were on the third floor and then thrown from the second floor.
Just so happens to be the 2nd anniversary of Kevin Bell today. The repatriation trust should be a big help here to those families effected when the time comes to even think of such arrangements.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 16, 2015, 01:06:40 PM
Jesus that sounds horrendous. RIP to them, God help their families. Probably over on J1s a lot of them. Muck Savage, are you near there?
Nuts. RIP and thoughts to all their families.
I live about 50 mile south in San Jose. A lot of J1'ers head here due to the difficulty in getting an apartment in SF (Cost and Availability). In Berkley all the College kids are out for the summer so lots of availability and lower cost for the summer months. Have seen in the past houses/apartments with a huge amount of J1'ers in them, when I was over on my J1 I was in a house with 21 people. Seems like this was a party.
Sad, Sad news for some families, my heart goes out to them.
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2015, 02:06:15 PM
Look like small balconies, so maybe 14 people was too many. Could be exacerbated if people were dancing or jumping around at a party. Poor kids. Hope the rest pull through.
On quick calculations, say on average they weigh 150lbs, women smaller, men bigger. If 14 were on the balcony then that is over 2100b or over 1 ton weight. Now if they were all jumping to a song or other then this would be more force. Sad
Extremely sad. Hope those injured pull through.
Just woke up to the shocking news over here
Shocking altogether, may they rest in peace
God be with their families and the injured
Quote from: Muck Savage on June 16, 2015, 04:09:11 PM
Quote from: J70 on June 16, 2015, 02:06:15 PM
Look like small balconies, so maybe 14 people was too many. Could be exacerbated if people were dancing or jumping around at a party. Poor kids. Hope the rest pull through.
On quick calculations, say on average they weigh 150lbs, women smaller, men bigger. If 14 were on the balcony then that is over 2100b or over 1 ton weight. Now if they were all jumping to a song or other then this would be more force. Sad
:-X :-X :-X :-X
Terrible tragedy. RIP
Jeez that is truly awful news.
Was on a J1 in Long Island, NY and it was and still is the best summer of my life. Should have been a time of great memories for these guys...RIP and thoughts go out to all the families back home having to deal with this now.
Reports that a sixth person had died. RIP - a terrible tragedy. God help their families, should have been a great summer for them all.
looks like the balcony was a wooden structure as well
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 16, 2015, 04:59:36 PM
looks like the balcony was a wooden structure as well
The railings perhaps but from the photos the floor looks pre-cast.
Just looking at images of the building and very few balconies. Could these 2 have been added at a later date?
Awful shocking news. You never expect so many lives to change like that. We have our own program here in Reno and the thought of 6 of them being dead this morning is a beyond sobering thought.
Rest In Peace.
Neighbour and colleague driving his mum to Dublin airport now. They believe his cousin - her niece - is among the dead. Flying over to support. God help the injured and the families of the dead and injured.
Reported on the Journal.ie website that parents from Loreto school in Foxrock were informed that some of the students involved had graduated from there in 2012.
http://www.thejournal.ie/berkeley-balcony-collapse-liveblog-2165000-Jun2015/ (http://www.thejournal.ie/berkeley-balcony-collapse-liveblog-2165000-Jun2015/)
Just awful
What can one say? Shocking horrible news for anyone to hear. All so young and going over there to earn a bit, never to come back. Just so sad. May they all RIP.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 16, 2015, 05:03:10 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 16, 2015, 04:59:36 PM
looks like the balcony was a wooden structure as well
The railings perhaps but from the photos the floor looks pre-cast.
Just looking at images of the building and very few balconies. Could these 2 have been added at a later date?
"While stressing that his assessment was preliminary, St. Onge said, "This appears to be a classic case of there being inadequate waterproofing at the point where the deck meets the house. If the waterproofing is substandard, rainwater can enter the building, causing dry rot, which can destroy the wood members within a short time, i.e. only a few years from construction."Timber structurally to horizontally support a balcony. Knowing how easy it is for damp to rot timber... that is hard to fathom.
Terrible tragedy
Quote from: theskull1 on June 16, 2015, 07:29:36 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on June 16, 2015, 05:03:10 PM
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on June 16, 2015, 04:59:36 PM
looks like the balcony was a wooden structure as well
The railings perhaps but from the photos the floor looks pre-cast.
Just looking at images of the building and very few balconies. Could these 2 have been added at a later date?
"While stressing that his assessment was preliminary, St. Onge said, "This appears to be a classic case of there being inadequate waterproofing at the point where the deck meets the house. If the waterproofing is substandard, rainwater can enter the building, causing dry rot, which can destroy the wood members within a short time, i.e. only a few years from construction."
Timber structurally to horizontally support a balcony. Knowing how easy it is for damp to rot timber... that is hard to fathom.
Terrible tragedy
Hmmm Quite... I'm surprised that steel isn't used for a structure like that however Im not a civil engineer or architect so not sure of the reasons why it wouldn't be. Who exactly made that statement skull?
Thoughts still very much with the families tho, terrible tragedy
http://www.berkeleyside.com/2015/06/16/balcony-collapse-leaves-five-irish-students-dead-many-injured/
A Structural Engineer named Gene St. Onge
http://stongeassociates.com/about-us/
The support timbers look to be in very poor condition on the TV pics - rotten it seems.
Just heard the names of the six. One is the same as an IC footballer probably not him though. Awful stuff.
Ah Jaysus I see those photos now, the whole thing just gave way at the wall and pivoted around that point. They would literally just have been tipped out, they wouldn't have had a chance at all. :(
Your right I'm no expert but the wood doesnt look good
God those images are awful viewing. Looks to be rotten.
Have a terrible lump in my chest since seeing the pictures. A group of youngsters just having the craic and god know who would ever think of a Balcony collapsing? Maybe someone with a few too many falling over the side, but feck the whole front just tipping them onto the street - Head first.
This is so tragic.
How many of us have headed off for carefree summers during university? Weekly phone call home to let them know you were ok.
Life can be very cruel.
Feels like the Irish community will have a lot of support over there, going by reports on news. Heartening at such a sad time.
Interesting comment underneath:
Took a look in person. All beams show rotting and are broken a foot out from the building. No sharp wood splinters; all looks mushy. No obvious venting on the lower balcony. My guess is bad design, bad engineering, and bad construction.
.
Mate of mine said the same thing early this morning. I wasn't sure how he could tell from a photo but he seems to know his stuff so I'll defer to him since he's in the business. He reckoned it was dry rot. I'm not sure if overcrowding was the deciding factor. I'm no structural engineer but it boggles my mind that a structure like that was using wood as a load-bearing material rather than steel. I see a lot of wood used in construction out here, I suppose they have their reasons and they know what they're doing, but still, it makes me wonder.
When I heard the thing had tipped over at 90 degrees the blood went cold in my veins, it must have been horrifying.
So tragic
I am sure a fair few of us spent summers in the U.S.
Puts all our petty squabbles over football into perspective
Heart goes out to the families
Quote from: Ohtoohtobe on June 16, 2015, 09:32:54 PM
Just heard the names of the six. One is the same as an IC footballer probably not him though. Awful stuff.
Not him, a Ballyboden man though who played at Inter/Junior level. Fella from club up here among the injured, broken leg anyway, hope it's no more than that. Couple of the injured supposed to be in a bad way, hope they pull through with no lasting injuries. Thoughts with all those out there and their families and friends.
Edit: The front page of the Star today is a disgrace. The last thing friends and families need to see is body bags on a Californian pavement.
So sad. Thoughts are with them all. Terrible tragedy
So very very sad. It does look like those wooden support beams were rotten alright.
One of the victims was American apparently.
RIP
Hope the rest pull through.
Quote from: laoislad on June 17, 2015, 10:01:58 AM
So very very sad. It does look like those wooden support beams were rotten right.
One of them was American apparently.
RIP
Heard this morning on the news that the American is possibly a cousin of one of the deceased Irish.
May they all Rest In Peace
Quote from: cornerback on June 17, 2015, 10:04:48 AM
Heard this morning on the news that the American is possibly a cousin of one of the deceased Irish.
May they all Rest In Peace
I think the American has Irish parents and was a cousin, indeed.
AS for the construction, it is clear that the balconies on these couple of apartments were ornaments as much as anything else, which represents a failure in the building regulations.
(http://ww3.hdnux.com/photos/37/11/02/8163490/9/920x920.jpg)
I read somewhere this morning that not all those that fell were on the Balcony. May have been trying to help those in trouble and were taken with it. not sure how true this is but seen Independant. ie quoted beside it.
God love them all, spent summers in America suring my college years and as others say they were care free and all about the craic.
May the rest in Peace.
Quote from: moysider on June 16, 2015, 05:53:23 PM
Neighbour and colleague driving his mum to Dublin airport now. They believe his cousin - her niece - is among the dead. Flying over to support. God help the injured and the families of the dead and injured.
Jesus imagine getting that call.
RIP to all the deceased and fingers crossed for the injured.
The rest of us should be marching on THE STAR to politely ask them to leave this island. Scum.
Quote from: muppet on June 17, 2015, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: moysider on June 16, 2015, 05:53:23 PM
Neighbour and colleague driving his mum to Dublin airport now. They believe his cousin - her niece - is among the dead. Flying over to support. God help the injured and the families of the dead and injured.
Jesus imagine getting that call.
RIP to all the deceased and fingers crossed for the injured.
The rest of us should be marching on THE STAR to politely ask them to leave this island. Scum.
What did they post?
The NY Times posted a rather derogatory article as well which is very unlike them.
Quote from: muppet on June 17, 2015, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: moysider on June 16, 2015, 05:53:23 PM
Neighbour and colleague driving his mum to Dublin airport now. They believe his cousin - her niece - is among the dead. Flying over to support. God help the injured and the families of the dead and injured.
Jesus imagine getting that call.
RIP to all the deceased and fingers crossed for the injured.
The rest of us should be marching on THE STAR to politely ask them to leave this island. Scum.
The examiner published the same picture.
Some of the NYT article;
"They come by the thousands — Irish students on work visas, many flocking to the West Coast to work in summer jobs by day and to enjoy the often raucous life in a college town at night.
"It was, for many, a rite of passage, one last summer to enjoy travel abroad before beginning a career."
"...the work-visa program that allowed for the exchanges has in recent years become not just a source of aspiration, but also a source of embarrassment for Ireland, marked by a series of high-profile episodes involving drunken partying and the wrecking of apartments in places like San Francisco and Santa Barbara."
Quote from: moysider on June 17, 2015, 01:46:07 PM
Some of the NYT article;
"They come by the thousands — Irish students on work visas, many flocking to the West Coast to work in summer jobs by day and to enjoy the often raucous life in a college town at night.
"It was, for many, a rite of passage, one last summer to enjoy travel abroad before beginning a career."
"...the work-visa program that allowed for the exchanges has in recent years become not just a source of aspiration, but also a source of embarrassment for Ireland, marked by a series of high-profile episodes involving drunken partying and the wrecking of apartments in places like San Francisco and Santa Barbara."
That's disgusting... why do they feel the need to print something like that when so many young people have just died?!
Quote from: ballinaman on June 17, 2015, 01:21:05 PM
Quote from: muppet on June 17, 2015, 12:58:49 PM
Quote from: moysider on June 16, 2015, 05:53:23 PM
Neighbour and colleague driving his mum to Dublin airport now. They believe his cousin - her niece - is among the dead. Flying over to support. God help the injured and the families of the dead and injured.
Jesus imagine getting that call.
RIP to all the deceased and fingers crossed for the injured.
The rest of us should be marching on THE STAR to politely ask them to leave this island. Scum.
The examiner published the same picture.
Well the same sentiment goes to them too.
WTF is wrong with these people?
I spent 3hrs yesterday trying to get in touch with my brother who is over in San Francisco on holiday with his mates, similar age to those that were involved. Thankfully he was just in bed fast asleep and didn't hear any of the numerous calls to his mobile and completely oblivious to what had happened.
That was the longest 3hrs of my life. :'(
RIP
Condolences to the family and friends and best wishes to the injured.
I'm watching two house's being built in the field beside us here these past few months. There is nothing to houses in America, nothing to construction. All chip board and weatherproof fabric and some cement board siding if you're lucky. Minimal code is enforced. They sit exposed to the elements for months before they are finished and we all live in them unsuspecting of the damage that lies behind the walls and under our feet.
These poor young ones paid the ultimate price. I can't imagine the brief torment they went through as it happened. God bless them all.
I was a bit taken aback by the NYT article myself. Couldn't believe what I was reading.
QuoteThere is nothing to houses in America, nothing to construction. All chip board and weatherproof fabric and some cement board siding if you're lucky.
Yes, looks like this apartment block was a timber frame structure. From the 'before' images the balcony didn't appear to have any surface water outlets. Looks like it was a combination of bad waterproofing initially, added to likely surface water ponding, added to a not fit for purpose design loading. The joists look so bad from the photo's it was only another while before it would have collapsed under it's own weight. Pity it didn't.
Quote from: The Iceman on June 17, 2015, 03:59:24 PM
I'm watching two house's being built in the field beside us here these past few months. There is nothing to houses in America, nothing to construction. All chip board and weatherproof fabric and some cement board siding if you're lucky. Minimal code is enforced. They sit exposed to the elements for months before they are finished and we all live in them unsuspecting of the damage that lies behind the walls and under our feet.
These poor young ones paid the ultimate price. I can't imagine the brief torment they went through as it happened. God bless them all.
Less than two seconds to hit the ground from that height. They were down before they even realized what happened. At least that is one minor source of comfort. Especially if that thing collapsed very suddenly.
Still can't get over this.
I was reading that Berkeley building code states that the Balcony should have been able to hold 60lbs per sq foot recently upgraded to 100lbs. So it was a 10ft x 5ft balcony leaving it 50sqft. Should have been able to hold 3000lbs according to the old code. Assuming there was 13 people on it @ 150lbs each on average means that would only be 2000lbs only 2/3 of the designed load. Assuming that is was designed and built to withstand this loading you have to assume something else went wrong.
Still can't understand why steel isnt used. It gives a warning of water damage (rust), lets you know when its bearing to much load (flex), and when it does fail doesn't completely give way (yield point v fracture point). But perhaps it might not be practical to attach to a wooden structure, I'm not sure.
Also Iceman is right the houses here are rubbishly made. I thought in California it was necessary to have timber frame houses because of their flexibility in earthquakes however evidently they are the same everywhere.
Just some posts trimmed from NY Times `valid complaints on balcony story section,that may shed a bit of light for board users.
formertenant
Berkeley 46 minutes ago
I lived in this apartment last year. Not just the building. The exact apartment where this tragedy occurred. The original article by the Times was appalling and this apology is a start but not enough. The building and that balcony specifically were very poorly maintained. The balcony was notably slanted and management should have done something about it.
Whether there were 13 people on it or not the balcony shouldn't have collapsed. It's also likely that a number of those 13 weren't actually standing on the balcony itself but in the adjoining living room and were pulled down as they tried to save the falling people as there's no separation between the balcony and the living room
pragmat
California 12 minutes ago
I am a Berkeley professor, and cry whenever I think of those students and their families. We expect death when our children go to war, not when they go to study. Balconies should be supported by steel beams, not by wood. It is ironic that in our drought a very young building was riddled with dry rot. Both the builders who used wood and the inspectors are at fault. There are no warnings on balconies, since we trust builders and inspectors. Marge Keller is right
John Berard
Aurora. Oregon 10 minutes ago
If the writer and editor had checked, they would found that balconies in Berkeley collapse with scandalous frequency, no matter who is on them. How about investigating that aspect of the story?
Kathy
San Francisco 8 minutes ago
Whether ther people on the balcony were drinking tea or Guinness has nothing to do with the fact that the beams were rotten from water damage. "Darrick Hom, president of the Structural Engineers Association of Northern California, visited the site and said the wood was so decayed that the broken beams crumbled in the hands of investigators." Frankly I am shocked that a 50 sq foot balcony would not require steel beams for support, espeically in an area prone to termite damage. Terrible tragedy and not the time for insensitive, irrelevant commentary
tartar
san francisco 11 hours ago
As a design professional, I immediately noticed that there was something strange about the failure of those joists in the picture. I believe this story will come out soon enough--regardless that the deck was probably overloaded--it should have still held.
I live near Berkeley, and was down there yesterday where there were many people milling around, many crying students and folks who knew these kids, trying to make sense of this accident. I don't think there's any way to convey how big this was, and the tragedy of it. I appreciate the NY Times stepping up to admit to a blindspot in their reporting
Muppet,have you got a link to the original pile of calumny,can only find the re-edit and the "heartfelt apology to three wasp journos/editors by the wheeled out biddy " for having a dumb readership unable to grasp the progression of a news report.
They haven't even taken the article down yet . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/balcony-collapse-berkeley-dead.html?_r=0
Cheap construction methods.
Look at this site and their current "Verano" project. Timber frame apartment block on a in-situ podium deck for the UG basement parking / services.
http://www.seguecon.com/projects/verano-on-the-boulevard/
Quote from: highorlow on June 18, 2015, 09:16:50 AM
Cheap construction methods.
Look at this site and their current "Verano" project. Timber frame apartment block on a in-situ podium deck for the UG basement parking / services.
http://www.seguecon.com/projects/verano-on-the-boulevard/
Jez they are just glamourised chicken coups on Raft Cement!
Quote from: screenexile on June 18, 2015, 09:14:50 AM
They haven't even taken the article down yet . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/balcony-collapse-berkeley-dead.html?_r=0
Clearly there is a issue with the behavour of
some of the J1 Students who head to the USA. But this was not the time or situation to deal with such an issue. Looks like a journalist with an agenda, got wind of what had happened in Berkeley and ran uneducated with the facts with a story.
Quote from: screenexile on June 18, 2015, 09:14:50 AM
They haven't even taken the article down yet . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/balcony-collapse-berkeley-dead.html?_r=0
Apparently their policy is not to rewrite history, but to apologise without actually removing the article.
QuoteClearly there is a issue with the behavour of some of the J1 Students who head to the USA. But this was not the time or situation to deal with such an issue. Looks like a journalist with an agenda, got wind of what had happened in Berkeley and ran uneducated with the facts with a story.
I hope the guys who thrashed the house last year as feeling proud of themselves.
RIP to all. It beggars belief using wood to act as a cantilever to support large weights. For reasons stated earlier steel should have been used, buried to the balls within the main block work structure. This will lead to massive payouts, personally think the engineer/ builder should do some jail time. The NY Times article was beyond belief and why say sorry and then not even remove the offending article.
Quote from: armaghniac on June 18, 2015, 09:53:40 AM
Quote from: screenexile on June 18, 2015, 09:14:50 AM
They haven't even taken the article down yet . . .
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/17/us/balcony-collapse-berkeley-dead.html?_r=0
Apparently their policy is not to rewrite history, but to apologise without actually removing the article.
QuoteClearly there is a issue with the behavour of some of the J1 Students who head to the USA. But this was not the time or situation to deal with such an issue. Looks like a journalist with an agenda, got wind of what had happened in Berkeley and ran uneducated with the facts with a story.
I hope the guys who thrashed the house last year as feeling proud of themselves.
I had forgotten about those clowns. At least some came forward afterwards iirc?
Very sad
Quote from: From the Bunker on June 18, 2015, 09:33:08 AM
Quote from: highorlow on June 18, 2015, 09:16:50 AM
Cheap construction methods.
Look at this site and their current "Verano" project. Timber frame apartment block on a in-situ podium deck for the UG basement parking / services.
http://www.seguecon.com/projects/verano-on-the-boulevard/
Jez they are just glamourised chicken coups on Raft Cement!
The houses thrown up in the Celtic Tiger era Ireland aren't much better.
In fairness most houses in Ireland are built with block at least. There's horror stories alright about subsidence and the odd plumbing or wiring nightmare, but at least the structure itself tends to be sound. I, too, noted in America as far back as the late 90s how quickly houses where thrown up. They were basically wooden frames with plasterboard and stucco. In Arizona I assumed they didn't build with block because there were no extreme storms or the like, and I thought wooden frames would be less heat retaining in the summer, but it sounds like it's common practice across the states.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 18, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
In fairness most houses in Ireland are built with block at least. There's horror stories alright about subsidence and the odd plumbing or wiring nightmare, but at least the structure itself tends to be sound. I, too, noted in America as far back as the late 90s how quickly houses where thrown up. They were basically wooden frames with plasterboard and stucco. In Arizona I assumed they didn't build with block because there were no extreme storms or the like, and I thought wooden frames would be less heat retaining in the summer, but it sounds like it's common practice across the states.
Yes and incredibly any time you see hurricane devastation, it always seems to be timber housing.
Same all over the US. Even in parts of NYC where detached houses are the norm, wood frame, plywood walls covered with tyvek and then siding are standard. Roofs are plywood covered with asphalt.
And it seems to work fine overall if done properly.
However, building an unsupported balcony out of wood would not be something I would have confidence in.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 18, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
In fairness most houses in Ireland are built with block at least. There's horror stories alright about subsidence and the odd plumbing or wiring nightmare, but at least the structure itself tends to be sound. I, too, noted in America as far back as the late 90s how quickly houses where thrown up. They were basically wooden frames with plasterboard and stucco. In Arizona I assumed they didn't build with block because there were no extreme storms or the like, and I thought wooden frames would be less heat retaining in the summer, but it sounds like it's common practice across the states.
Two words - Priory Hall
The world is running out of sand / diverting it elsewhere. Hence the move towards different construction techniques.
http://www.wired.com/2015/03/illegal-sand-mining/
http://www.businessinsider.com/morgan-stanley-forecasts-sand-demand-growth-2014-9?IR=T
Quote from: Bingo on June 18, 2015, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 18, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
In fairness most houses in Ireland are built with block at least. There's horror stories alright about subsidence and the odd plumbing or wiring nightmare, but at least the structure itself tends to be sound. I, too, noted in America as far back as the late 90s how quickly houses where thrown up. They were basically wooden frames with plasterboard and stucco. In Arizona I assumed they didn't build with block because there were no extreme storms or the like, and I thought wooden frames would be less heat retaining in the summer, but it sounds like it's common practice across the states.
Two words - Priory Hall
That was a fire certification issue. But your point is still valid. It was Bertie who put an end to on site inspections in the 1990s.
Quote from: muppet on June 18, 2015, 02:00:59 PM
Quote from: Bingo on June 18, 2015, 01:53:45 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 18, 2015, 01:34:03 PM
In fairness most houses in Ireland are built with block at least. There's horror stories alright about subsidence and the odd plumbing or wiring nightmare, but at least the structure itself tends to be sound. I, too, noted in America as far back as the late 90s how quickly houses where thrown up. They were basically wooden frames with plasterboard and stucco. In Arizona I assumed they didn't build with block because there were no extreme storms or the like, and I thought wooden frames would be less heat retaining in the summer, but it sounds like it's common practice across the states.
Two words - Priory Hall
That was a fire certification issue. But your point is still valid. It was Bertie who put an end to on site inspections in the 1990s.
There is cowboy buildings and developers everywhere. We have more than our fair share of them as my example shows. And it doesn't matter if its timberframe, concrete, glass, ice or straw, if its badly built it will cause problems.
I done some work a few years back for 3 couples who bought their dream homes during the good times, these where detached, brick built 5 beds in a rural setting with all the bells and whistles. Within 12 mths of moving in they where all boarded up and it took years to resolve as the builder had gone to the wall and the professionals involved where all pointing fingers elsewhere. From the contaminated water running to the houses, the sewerage that wasn't running away to the sagging roofs, the houses might as well have built by the 3 little pigs.
This is kinda off topic now, so will leave it there and leave the thread as what it was intended for.
That's the point I'm making Bingo. I'm not sure this was just 'cowboy builders' because this type of build seems to be the standard practice in the states. We have absolute cowboys here, but at least we tend to build with block and should be structurally sound.
But as you say, maybe a topic for a different thread.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 18, 2015, 02:14:23 PM
That's the point I'm making Bingo. I'm not sure this was just 'cowboy builders' because this type of build seems to be the standard practice in the states. We have absolute cowboys here, but at least we tend to build with block and should be structurally sound.
But as you say, maybe a topic for a different thread.
The build is standard, but the detailing may have been shoddy cowboy builder stuff, allowing water in and so on.
Yes, and if the standard build is wood, and you let in water, it's not a good mix. If it was concrete and steel, this wouldn't be an issue. But anyway, forget it, it's something that can be discussed when the inquiry is happening.
Reports this evening that the building main contractor has a history of paying out in legal actions for cowboy building - including shoddy balconies.
Quote from: Hardy on June 18, 2015, 08:51:03 PM
Reports this evening that the building main contractor has a history of paying out in legal actions for cowboy building - including shoddy balconies.
That's a fact of life over here. The penalties for a lot building code and health and safety violations are ridiculously low, so much so that it is often cheaper to pay the fine than to correct the condition. This is especially the case with large companies.
Makes me very proud to see the way the Irish nation has reacted to this disaster. Aer Lingus, KBRT, Ireland America Fund, Online donations...all pulling together to get these kids home. Amazing stuff.
Quote from: Hardy on June 18, 2015, 08:51:03 PM
Reports this evening that the building main contractor has a history of paying out in legal actions for cowboy building - including shoddy balconies.
Interesting to see how they get the funds together to pay out on this one! Lets call a spade a spade a spade. The f**king thing was a joke. A death-trap. I ve seen 20 year old chicken coops less rotten.
Those that approved the structure and those that certified it since (and both of that criteria seems to have been met), should be facing manslaughter charges.
I assume the NYT journalist that wrote that shite has been roaded. Plus at least the sub-editor that let it through.
What I found strange was that the building management was "ordered to" inspect the failed materials and find out what went wrong. How come this wasn't a criminal investigation from the start?
Condonlescenes to all those affected by this tragedy.
A few things I don't understand is why steel isn't used in the states to support balconies, I find that shocking but the biggest shock is that apparently these balconies are for aesthetic purposes only, wtf, if that's the case no one should be able to access them, crazy to think that,
the other thing I don't understand is how when it collapsed they was so many fatalities, there was a balcony directly underneath which I would of thought would caught most if not everyone that fell and saved lives, but sadly they must of fell outward onto the ground by the sounds of it, shocking,
Totally agree 5 sams, great to see everyone pulling together to get everyone home in a timely manner, RIP
I know nothing about building but if the beams were made of wood and the balcony used for only aesthetic purposes only, wouldn't it still be at risk of eventually collapsing under its own weight even if it took 50 years ?
I don't think there's anything wrong with using timber for structural load bearing as long as it doesn't get wet and rot. Timber has been holding up Tudor roofs for 500 years.
I think it may be a misunderstanding to suggest that the balconies were "for aesthetic purposes only" and therefore not meant to be load bearing. I believe the balconies were required for planning approval in order to fit in the streetscape or whatever. I don't think anyone (even an architect) would specify a decorative, non load-bearing balcony with a door for access.
Quote from: Hardy on June 19, 2015, 12:34:40 PM
I don't think there's anything wrong with using timber for structural load bearing as long as it doesn't get wet and rot. Timber has been holding up Tudor roofs for 500 years.
I think it may be a misunderstanding to suggest that the balconies were "for aesthetic purposes only" and therefore not meant to be load bearing. I believe the balconies were required for planning approval in order to fit in the streetscape or whatever. I don't think anyone (even an architect) would specify a decorative, non load-bearing balcony with a door for access.
Fair points hardy
Also, wood performs better in an earthquake zone like we have here.
Forgot myself there. Shouldn't have joked on this thread. Nah I rem seeing a few pics messing about the Toronto quake a few years back.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 19, 2015, 09:18:58 AM
Condonlescenes to all those affected by this tragedy.
A few things I don't understand is why steel isn't used in the states to support balconies, I find that shocking but the biggest shock is that apparently these balconies are for aesthetic purposes only, wtf, if that's the case no one should be able to access them, crazy to think that,
the other thing I don't understand is how when it collapsed they was so many fatalities, there was a balcony directly underneath which I would of thought would caught most if not everyone that fell and saved lives, but sadly they must of fell outward onto the ground by the sounds of it, shocking,
Totally agree 5 sams, great to see everyone pulling together to get everyone home in a timely manner, RIP
I don't think it fell straight down, as in descended like an elevator with an even floor with everyone standing on it. I believe the part furthest from the wall fell away first, tipping everyone out onto the street and missing the balcony below. The balcony then rotated somewhat before landing on the one below.
Quote from: muppet on June 19, 2015, 04:02:02 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on June 19, 2015, 09:18:58 AM
Condonlescenes to all those affected by this tragedy.
A few things I don't understand is why steel isn't used in the states to support balconies, I find that shocking but the biggest shock is that apparently these balconies are for aesthetic purposes only, wtf, if that's the case no one should be able to access them, crazy to think that,
the other thing I don't understand is how when it collapsed they was so many fatalities, there was a balcony directly underneath which I would of thought would caught most if not everyone that fell and saved lives, but sadly they must of fell outward onto the ground by the sounds of it, shocking,
Totally agree 5 sams, great to see everyone pulling together to get everyone home in a timely manner, RIP
I don't think it fell straight down, as in descended like an elevator with an even floor with everyone standing on it. I believe the part furthest from the wall fell away first, tipping everyone out onto the street and missing the balcony below. The balcony then rotated somewhat before landing on the one below.
Yeah if you look at the photos the balcony is actually upside down with the outer railing against the wall, meaning that it rotated a full 180° by the time it landed on the other balcony.
If you're in a position to make a donation to help the families, here is the link:
http://www.gofundme.com/J1tragedyfund (http://www.gofundme.com/J1tragedyfund)
This was set up by Celine Kennelly at the SF Irish Immigration Pastoral Center.
Just got in from the funeral service in Sonoma County for the two girls. The service itself was a mass, which I've always found a bit intrusive when given as funerals services. To me it feels like the deceased are a little sidelined among all the standard rituals of the mass, but on the other hand if the familiarity of the rituals give the family a bit of comfort then who am I to judge?
Afterwards there was a party (yes, you heard me right) at Sonoma State University where one of the girls was a student. Food was served, music was played, slideshows were projected, Irish dancers performed, and family and friends got up to speak and share their memories and funny stories. The speakers were emotional, articulate, witty, and funny.
I didn't know any of the victims personally, but thanks to the stories of them doing all the things young people do at that age, we got a sense of who they were and what they meant to the people in their lives. It was a very fitting tribute.
It was poignant, enlightening, and ultimately up-lifting. It was a celebration of their lives.
What we've lost doesn't change what we had.
Nice of you to go along Eamonn and show your support.
God help their families, I'm sure the tough bit begins now but I am sure the funeral and party will help with their healing.
Is the Irish girl being flown home to be buried?
I believe so. Apparently these two were very close friends, one of their pranks was to dress the same and try to make people think they were twins. They were literally together right until the end, their bodies were found to be holding on to each other.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 21, 2015, 03:05:56 AM
I believe so. Apparently these two were very close friends, one of their pranks was to dress the same and try to make people think they were twins. They were literally together right until the end, their bodies were found to be holding on to each other.
Jaysus thats heartbreaking
Quote from: omaghjoe on June 21, 2015, 03:57:24 AM
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on June 21, 2015, 03:05:56 AM
I believe so. Apparently these two were very close friends, one of their pranks was to dress the same and try to make people think they were twins. They were literally together right until the end, their bodies were found to be holding on to each other.
Jaysus thats heartbreaking
it truly is. Still can't get that bit out of my head, the absolute horror and panic they must've experienced for a few brief seconds
http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0623/710108-berkeley-investigation/ (http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0623/710108-berkeley-investigation/)
Irish student, 21, injured in Berkeley balcony collapse posted this on her facebook
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CIVTfoQWIAAzIjR.jpg)
I saw that. What an attitude from a young girl. There may be an element of it not fully sinking in yet, but that post is unreal.
Quote from: AZOffaly on June 26, 2015, 09:21:37 AM
I saw that. What an attitude from a young girl. There may be an element of it not fully sinking in yet, but that post is unreal.
Possibly a bit of survivor guilt as well, but an amazing positive post nonetheless.
No criminal charges in this case. Unfortunately not that surprised, I suspect that the building was built to code and signed off correctly.
Im no expert but my suspicion is that it was some sort of freak combination of things that lead to water leaking in on the balcony caused in part by careless workmanship but probably difficult to prove and/or to pinpoint who was at fault.
Quote from: omaghjoe on March 29, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No criminal charges in this case. Unfortunately not that surprised, I suspect that the building was built to code and signed off correctly.
Im no expert but my suspicion is that it was some sort of freak combination of things that lead to water leaking in on the balcony caused in part by careless workmanship but probably difficult to prove and/or to pinpoint who was at fault.
I'd say it's a can of worms and there are thousands of these types of Balconies in the state.
Quote from: omaghjoe on March 29, 2016, 08:04:15 PM
No criminal charges in this case. Unfortunately not that surprised, I suspect that the building was built to code and signed off correctly.
Im no expert but my suspicion is that it was some sort of freak combination of things that lead to water leaking in on the balcony caused in part by careless workmanship but probably difficult to prove and/or to pinpoint who was at fault.
Is there not a maintenance obligation also?