Unionist vote has increased by approx 2% and the Nationalist vote is in decline, share down by over 3%. FST gone. Surely this is the start of the end for nationalists in the North.
The Stoops should be proud of themselves after what happened in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.
I don't think so... it's more Nationalists apathy towards our political representation.
With the issue of flegs/parades since the last General Election I think it has galvanised the Unionists into making sure they get out so FST isn't lost again.
I still think within the next 10-20 years there will be a Nationalist majority in NI and then the shit will hit the fan if a referendum is called.
On another note are the electoral boundaries being redrawn before the Next GE?
Quote from: Aerlik on May 08, 2015, 11:06:20 AM
The Stoops should be proud of themselves after what happened in Fermanagh/South Tyrone.
They have every right to stand, maybe if the sinners took their seat they might get more votes.
I don't see where this optimism for a nationalist majority is coming from. The stats would say otherwise. Citizens from a catholic background may be in a majority but they are unlikely to be nationalist surely? The SDLP and Sinn Fein both must accept culpability. Fresh thinking and a combined approach is required. The issue seems to be that young people are switched off by the current nationalist parties.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:02:53 AM
Unionist vote has increased by approx 2% and the Nationalist vote is in decline, share down by over 3%. FST gone. Surely this is the start of the end for nationalists in the North.
No the vote is there, but fresh ideas are required.
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 11:08:52 AM
I don't think so... it's more Nationalists apathy towards our political representation.
With the issue of flegs/parades since the last General Election I think it has galvanised the Unionists into making sure they get out so FST isn't lost again.
I still think within the next 10-20 years there will be a Nationalist majority in NI and then the shit will hit the fan if a referendum is called.
On another note are the electoral boundaries being redrawn before the Next GE?
I think they are. I read somewhere that Belfast could go to 3 seats. Some talk of the overall number of MPs being reduced too.
Quote from: Ulick on May 08, 2015, 11:26:20 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:02:53 AM
Unionist vote has increased by approx 2% and the Nationalist vote is in decline, share down by over 3%. FST gone. Surely this is the start of the end for nationalists in the North.
No the vote is there, but fresh ideas are required.
I agree with Ulick, the votes are there but the policies, faces and ideas aren't there to attract a section of voters to come out.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:02:53 AM
Unionist vote has increased by approx 2% and the Nationalist vote is in decline, share down by over 3%. FST gone. Surely this is the start of the end for nationalists in the North.
But are the overall numbers down?
This could be more about Unionist parties getting better at getting their voters out.
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 11:08:52 AM
I don't think so... it's more Nationalists apathy towards our political representation.
With the issue of flegs/parades since the last General Election I think it has galvanised the Unionists into making sure they get out so FST isn't lost again.
I still think within the next 10-20 years there will be a Nationalist majority in NI and then the shit will hit the fan if a referendum is called.
I'd agree with this.
Unionist turnout increased as the union is 'under threat'. Same crisis cannot be said of Nationalism/Republicanism.
Also, important to note that unionist pacts are, in my opinion, the beginning of the end for unionists in those areas; Having to lump all support together to nick a win. A last roll of the dice if you will.
I believe that Alasdair McDonnell and Gerry Adams are a big turn off for many nationalists, certainly for me they are. On the SF side McGuinness, Conor Murphy, Michelle Gildernew and a few others mitigate the effect, on the SDLP side Big Dolly is even worse than McDonnell. On an aside Martina Anderson was a disaster on TV last night, Reg Empty and Arlene Foster wiped the floor with her.
I'd agree that a UI now does not appeal to many Catholics.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
I believe that Alasdair McDonnell and Gerry Adams are a big turn off for many nationalists, certainly for me they are. On the SF side McGuinness, Conor Murphy, Michelle Gildernew and a few others mitigate the effect, on the SDLP side Big Dolly is even worse than McDonnell. On an aside Martina Anderson was a disaster on TV last night, Reg Empty and Arlene Foster wiped the floor with her.
I'd agree that a UI now does not appeal to many Catholics.
It's a spectacular achievement to be upended by this pillock.
I think the idea of a UI would appeal to people if they had the right candidates. I'd happily vote for Pearse Doherty if he stood in Dublin. They just don't have enough of them. Yet.
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
I don't think there are any more. Too many people from a Nationalist background are content within the UK. It may have taken 40 years but the normalisation policy has worked a treat. As British as Finchley >:(
Why would we want to join the Republic at the minute when the place is couped? Water charges, EU Bailouts, no justice for the people who couped the place, a non competitive banking sector taking the piss out of people mortgaged to the eyeballs. f**k that!!
If the Republic get their house in order and Sinn Fein and the Stoops can present a good enough case to the ordinary person that they'd be better off in the free state then I think it's still ingrained in most of us that we want to be a part of Ireland.
The key is to show people that it's better for us not just "at least it's not the Brits" which is too wishy washy in this day and age!!!
Nationalist apathy is the big problem. Combined numbers for SF/SDLP votes are down the last three consecutive GEs. Screenexile summed it up for me, pretty much everyone I know would share his attitude to SF.
SF need to up their game big time and properly set out their stall. They need to stop blowing on about a UI and properly delve into how and why it should take place ie develop tangible strategies that will attract voters especially around health care and the economy.
They need a shake up in personnel though I can't see that happening. Some of the older heads, especially those with an illustrious past need pushed to the side to make way for new faces. The likes of MOM has been exceptional for SF and the response he gets even from some Unionist quarters has to be exploited more.
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
I don't think there are any more. Too many people from a Nationalist background are content within the UK. It may have taken 40 years but the normalisation policy has worked a treat. As British as Finchley >:(
Why would we want to join the Republic
When has Sinn Féin or any other party lobbied for "joining the republic"?
Quote from: general_lee on May 08, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
Nationalist apathy is the big problem. Combined numbers for SF/SDLP votes are down the last three consecutive GEs. Screenexile summed it up for me, pretty much everyone I know would share his attitude to SF.
SF need to up their game big time and properly set out their stall. They need to stop blowing on about a UI and properly delve into how and why it should take place ie develop tangible strategies that will attract voters especially around health care and the economy.
They need a shake up in personnel though I can't see that happening. Some of the older heads, especially those with an illustrious past need pushed to the side to make way for new faces. The likes of MOM has been exceptional for SF and the response he gets even from some Unionist quarters has to be exploited more.
I can't disagree with this.
Quote from: general_lee on May 08, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
Nationalist apathy is the big problem. Combined numbers for SF/SDLP votes are down the last three consecutive GEs. Screenexile summed it up for me, pretty much everyone I know would share his attitude to SF.
SF need to up their game big time and properly set out their stall. They need to stop blowing on about a UI and properly delve into how and why it should take place ie develop tangible strategies that will attract voters especially around health care and the economy.
They need a shake up in personnel though I can't see that happening. Some of the older heads, especially those with an illustrious past need pushed to the side to make way for new faces. The likes of MOM has been exceptional for SF and the response he gets even from some Unionist quarters has to be exploited more.
Agree absolutely. A fantastic representative for them and Belfast. I imagine he'll safely take an Assembly seat next time around.
Time for nationalist people to reflect where they are going and do they really want to go there? Into a Republic which sold them out nearly 100 years ago and treats "N Ireland" as part of its Foreign Affairs and looks upon all of us with less warmth than they do their UK Royals heroes?
SDLP and Sinn Fein have achieved little and are further alienating themselves from their core constituencies by their anti catholic stances on homosexuality and abortion etc.Just check today's Irish News letters page to see the impact this is having.
I believe Northern Nationalists need a new party that can unite the vast majority of us,but first we must decide in which direction we want to go.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 12:37:45 PM
Time for nationalist people to reflect where they are going and do they really want to go there? Into a Republic which sold them out nearly 100 years ago and treats "N Ireland" as part of its Foreign Affairs and looks upon all of us with less warmth than they do their UK Royals heroes?
SDLP and Sinn Fein have achieved little and are further alienating themselves from their core constituencies by their anti catholic stances on homosexuality and abortion etc.Just check today's Irish News letters page to see the impact this is having.
I believe Northern Nationalists need a new party that can unite the vast majority of us,but first we must decide in which direction we want to go.
Oh just f**k away off, won't you?
Quote from: gallsman on May 08, 2015, 12:47:48 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 12:37:45 PM
Time for nationalist people to reflect where they are going and do they really want to go there? Into a Republic which sold them out nearly 100 years ago and treats "N Ireland" as part of its Foreign Affairs and looks upon all of us with less warmth than they do their UK Royals heroes?
SDLP and Sinn Fein have achieved little and are further alienating themselves from their core constituencies by their anti catholic stances on homosexuality and abortion etc.Just check today's Irish News letters page to see the impact this is having.
I believe Northern Nationalists need a new party that can unite the vast majority of us,but first we must decide in which direction we want to go.
Oh just f**k away off, won't you?
Well said Gallsman. Tony the days of the irish people being ruled from the pulpit while their children were being molested under it are over. Bunch of hypocrites.
On another note why didnt the SDLP and Sinn Fein form a pact in upper bann together they may have got the seat.
I actually do agree that we need a new nationalist party. I'm not convinced what is there represent what a load stand for.
The religion part is as usual a crock of shit. Let's mirror the DUP and have an extreme party from the "other side" ::)
The state of this place is depressing.
If the results of the last two elections here aren't enough to shake SF out of their complacency then the decline will continue. Frankly bar gay rights, they're all over the place policy wise (they're even weak on arguing for a UI) and in some areas can't articulate their policies at all.
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
I don't think there are any more. Too many people from a Nationalist background are content within the UK. It may have taken 40 years but the normalisation policy has worked a treat. As British as Finchley >:(
Why would we want to join the Republic at the minute when the place is couped? Water charges, EU Bailouts, no justice for the people who couped the place, a non competitive banking sector taking the piss out of people mortgaged to the eyeballs. f**k that!!
If the Republic get their house in order and Sinn Fein and the Stoops can present a good enough case to the ordinary person that they'd be better off in the free state then I think it's still ingrained in most of us that we want to be a part of Ireland.
The key is to show people that it's better for us not just "at least it's not the Brits" which is too wishy washy in this day and age!!!
Shane said it best when he basically said he would live in a cave to get a United Ireland.
If all you are concerned with is the financial aspect of the thing then we are in serious trouble, get the brits out democratically and work with them economically, the economy will always fluctuate and will remain fluid.
Quote from: stew on May 08, 2015, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
I don't think there are any more. Too many people from a Nationalist background are content within the UK. It may have taken 40 years but the normalisation policy has worked a treat. As British as Finchley >:(
Why would we want to join the Republic at the minute when the place is couped? Water charges, EU Bailouts, no justice for the people who couped the place, a non competitive banking sector taking the piss out of people mortgaged to the eyeballs. f**k that!!
If the Republic get their house in order and Sinn Fein and the Stoops can present a good enough case to the ordinary person that they'd be better off in the free state then I think it's still ingrained in most of us that we want to be a part of Ireland.
The key is to show people that it's better for us not just "at least it's not the Brits" which is too wishy washy in this day and age!!!
Shane said it best when he basically said he would live in a cave to get a United Ireland.
If all you are concerned with is the financial aspect of the thing then we are in serious trouble, get the brits out democratically and work with them economically, the economy will always fluctuate and will remain fluid.
That's not good enough anymore stew. . . normal people want their situation to improve and if nobody can put a case forward for a UI doing that then it's not going to happen!!!
there is a definite apathy within the nationalist electorate in north, i was speaking to loads of people who didnt vote this time that had always voted before. look at the rise of nationalism in scotland with the snp, scottish people feel they have a party that speaks for them and they now have a stronger voice at westminster because of it. sinn fein and the sdlp need to liven up and not take votes here for granted.
Gallsman and Snoopdog you may be unprepared for pulpit rule, but thousands aren't and this is definitely impacting upon both SDLP and SF Votes.
If everyone up here unanimously voted for a United Ireland tomorrow do you think the Dublin Govt would agree or a majority of people in the 26 counties? No , me neither.
Snoopdog, there are many SDLP voters (and vice versa) who wouldn't vote for SF in any circumstances, so pacts are useless. People who vote are reasonably intelligent and the 2500 SDlP voters in Fermanagh/S Tyrone knew full well the implications of their decision when they were in the Polling Booth, and are indeed probably quite happy now.
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 02:52:17 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 02:08:38 PM
Quote from: stew on May 08, 2015, 01:57:45 PM
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 11:54:40 AM
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
I don't think there are any more. Too many people from a Nationalist background are content within the UK. It may have taken 40 years but the normalisation policy has worked a treat. As British as Finchley >:(
Why would we want to join the Republic at the minute when the place is couped? Water charges, EU Bailouts, no justice for the people who couped the place, a non competitive banking sector taking the piss out of people mortgaged to the eyeballs. f**k that!!
If the Republic get their house in order and Sinn Fein and the Stoops can present a good enough case to the ordinary person that they'd be better off in the free state then I think it's still ingrained in most of us that we want to be a part of Ireland.
The key is to show people that it's better for us not just "at least it's not the Brits" which is too wishy washy in this day and age!!!
Shane said it best when he basically said he would live in a cave to get a United Ireland.
If all you are concerned with is the financial aspect of the thing then we are in serious trouble, get the brits out democratically and work with them economically, the economy will always fluctuate and will remain fluid.
That's not good enough anymore stew. . . normal people want their situation to improve and if nobody can put a case forward for a UI doing that then it's not going to happen!!!
Thanks for articulating the original point I was trying to make - 'I'm alright Jack' seems to be the default position for many from a CNR background. Hey, we're not second class citizens any more, we have 'power-sharing' and why would we want to have to pay to go to the doctor like you do in the south - god bless the NHS.
Ironically, 5 years of the Tories could be just the shot in the arm Nationalism in the six counties needs. The gutting of the bloated public sector, welfare reforms that will literally make people cry and the destruction of the NHS that's on the way as well as the revision of the Barnett formula will make the Republic a much, much more appealing place by 2020.
If that is the case I will vote for a United Ireland. What are the chances of the Republic having their house in order at that stage though?
An United Ireland is a fantasy. What do you think would happen if Ireland was United tomorrow? More years of killings, bombings, murders. The same threats that came from loyalists 100 years ago. Does anyone want to go back to that?
Ireland gave away it's independence when it joined Europe. A new country sold it's soul less that 50 years later. We're all ruled by unelected wankers in Europe now anyway. Ireland was deliberately fucked, financially, economically and culturally. An United Ireland would change diddly squat in those regards.
A United Ireland
Or
An United Ireland
I think technically you're probably right on this one Bennycake. . . any grammar police in?
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 02:53:33 PM
Snoopdog, there are many SDLP voters (and vice versa) who wouldn't vote for SF in any circumstances, so pacts are useless. People who vote are reasonably intelligent and the 2500 SDlP voters in Fermanagh/S Tyrone knew full well the implications of their decision when they were in the Polling Booth, and are indeed probably quite happy now.
Are they really? All of them? Seems to be usuns and themuns yet again. I have met people who said they voted "because that's who my ma and da voted for" or "to keep so and so out". This kind of thing really annoys me. I'm probably in a minority but I would rather these people didn't vote at all.
At the same time I wouldn't be surprised if a larger proportion of the younger intelligent voters aren't voting at all as there isn't anyone who appeals to them.
Quote from: screenexile on May 08, 2015, 03:16:34 PM
A United Ireland
Or
An United Ireland
I think technically you're probably right on this one Bennycake. . . any grammar police in?
He is wrong!
It is A United Ireland!
I think that the Shinners have lost their way somewhat, the retention of Adams in spite of all the controversy which has tainted him of late and the insistence in promoting the likes of the Maskey's and Caral who are street wise but not very able politicians is also an issue. The Stoops are barely hanging together themselves let alone being able to get agreement with SF. A new direction is needed. I have said here before, not unlike the SNP nationalism needs to agree as a whole north and south what a UI would look like, and what protection there would be for unionists. I do think that if economically a UI made sense to many Unionists that they would vote that way.
Tony I now have reached the conclusion that an intelligent man such as yourself does not actually believe the right wing anti rights crap that you post...you are baiting us!
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
I think that the Shinners have lost their way somewhat, the retention of Adams in spite of all the controversy which has tainted him of late and the insistence in promoting the likes of the Maskey's and Caral who are street wise but not very able politicians is also an issue. The Stoops are barely hanging together themselves let alone being able to get agreement with SF. A new direction is needed. I have said here before, not unlike the SNP nationalism needs to agree as a whole north and south what a UI would look like, and what protection there would be for unionists. I do think that if economically a UI made sense to many Unionists that they would vote that way.
Tony I now have reached the conclusion that an intelligent man such as yourself does not actually believe the right wing anti rights crap that you post...you are baiting us!
public
How can Adams be a problem now that he's a TD in the Republic?
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
I think that the Shinners have lost their way somewhat, the retention of Adams in spite of all the controversy which has tainted him of late and the insistence in promoting the likes of the Maskey's and Caral who are street wise but not very able politicians is also an issue. The Stoops are barely hanging together themselves let alone being able to get agreement with SF. A new direction is needed. I have said here before, not unlike the SNP nationalism needs to agree as a whole north and south what a UI would look like, and what protection there would be for unionists. I do think that if economically a UI made sense to many Unionists that they would vote that way.
Tony I now have reached the conclusion that an intelligent man such as yourself does not actually believe the right wing anti rights crap that you post...you are baiting us!
While I agree a new direction is needed much of what you say doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
1. Adams has effectively been gone from northern politics for years and has overseen the rise of the Party in the south.
2. Not sure which Maskey you are referring to but neither have had much of a promotion. Alex has been moved back west to make room for Mairtin O'Muilleoir (a good move) and Paul has a Westminster seat, which in SF terms isn't really a top job.
3. Caral Ni Chuilin could do better but they're not exactly bursting at the seams with experienced people in Stormont.
4. The SNP in Scotland hasn't really articulated what an independent Scotland will look like either, rather they put forward a vision or positive notion of a Scottish identity which people have bought into. It would be a waste of time and resources for SF to start putting out their all-Ireland stall for others to knock it down, and besides it's not for them to decide what a reunified state will look like.
5. The economic argument will never win Unionists over, if it did we would have had UI ten years ago.
Quote from: Denn Forever on May 08, 2015, 03:42:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
I think that the Shinners have lost their way somewhat, the retention of Adams in spite of all the controversy which has tainted him of late and the insistence in promoting the likes of the Maskey's and Caral who are street wise but not very able politicians is also an issue. The Stoops are barely hanging together themselves let alone being able to get agreement with SF. A new direction is needed. I have said here before, not unlike the SNP nationalism needs to agree as a whole north and south what a UI would look like, and what protection there would be for unionists. I do think that if economically a UI made sense to many Unionists that they would vote that way.
Tony I now have reached the conclusion that an intelligent man such as yourself does not actually believe the right wing anti rights crap that you post...you are baiting us!
public
How can Adams be a problem now that he's a TD in the Republic?
He is still the President of Sinn Fein.
I get the impression that unionists and their elected mp's would do anything to stay within the uk and remain "British".
Partly they want to obey whatever their masters in west minister want in case they abandon them here with these taigs, and partly they just go against everything that SF want, even if it makes perfect sense, they just can't be seen to agree with SF. This was evident with the unionists approving all these welfare cuts.
Even if it meant no jobs, inadequate education and healthcare, their constituents living in poverty etc, they will approve and go along with their British masters. This is what unionism seems to amount to.
Tony, I imagine your're right that in FST, many SDLP voters would never consider voting FOR SF, but being a one-time SDLP voter and field worker myself, given the reality of my party having no chance and the very real possibility of a bigot like Elliott getting in, I'd be pragmatic and vote SF, not as a pro-SF ballot but as an anti UUP one. But perhaps in FST ill feelings against SF are even more deep-rooted than I know. Oops, sorry, meant to post this under the Vote thread.
For what it's worth Nationalism in the North seems a wispy wish among many, but when push comes to shove in a referendum it would evaporate as people opt for the perceived economic security of the status quo. It is, it seems, an even flimsier notion in the South. If, however, the Tories enact Draconian cuts, then perhaps more Northern nationalists could be enticed by a UI, but would their co-islanders want them. Probably not.
Oraisteach I could point out examples a lot closer to home believe me. Now does anyone think the 2,500 SDLP voters in Fermanagh? S Tyrone yesterday (these are people who took the trouble to vote remember) were not fully aware that a) The seat was marginal B) Gildernew needed every Single vote she could get (as her victory last time was by a single vote) C) The SDLP had zilch chance of winning the seat? Yet they still opted for SDLP and didn't countenance even lending Gildernew their vote? I don't believe one of them was not fully aware what they were doing which would suggest to me that if there had been a Sinn Fein candidate and no SDLP candidate, very few of these people would have voted Sinn Fein.
As I said a new party is needed, free from baggage, to articulate a vision which can unite the vast majority of Northern Nationalists.
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
Slightly better? 4000 votes better!!!
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:08:50 PM
Oraisteach I could point out examples a lot closer to home believe me. Now does anyone think the 2,500 SDLP voters in Fermanagh? S Tyrone yesterday (these are people who took the trouble to vote remember) were not fully aware that a) The seat was marginal B) Gildernew needed every Single vote she could get (as her victory last time was by a single vote) C) The SDLP had zilch chance of winning the seat? Yet they still opted for SDLP and didn't countenance even lending Gildernew their vote? I don't believe one of them was not fully aware what they were doing which would suggest to me that if there had been a Sinn Fein candidate and no SDLP candidate, very few of these people would have voted Sinn Fein.
As I said a new party is needed, free from baggage, to articulate a vision which can unite the vast majority of Northern Nationalists.
It really is a sad situation that 2500 people thought this was the right thing to do given that it was effectively handing victory to a man that would not spit on them if they were on fire. :-\
The SDLP and SF need to learn from this for future elections.
If he gets them next time, (and he got 12,000 yesterday, his first time) then watch another seat fall into gleeful unionist hands
Some questions being asked here that I asked myself this morning in terms of was Nationalist votes going down or if Unionst votes were going up. Some people completely wrong in terms of the vote count for Nationalist parties being reduced and perhaps taking the % share of the vote reduction as a measure that nationalist vote count is down.
Sinn Fein actual votes increased by 4,288 between 2010 and 2015 (2010 actual results not considering the by elections in Mid Ulster and West Belfast where their votes dropped in this). Votes actually increased in the FST & Newry/Armagh
2010 2015 Percentage
Belfast East 817 823 0.7%
Belfast North 12588 13770 9.4%
Belfast South 0 5402 #DIV/0!
Belfast West 22840 19163 -16.1%
East Antrim 2064 2314 12.1%
East Derry 6742 6859 1.7%
Fermanagh & South Tyrone 21304 23078 8.3%
Foyle 12098 11679 -3.5%
Lagan Valley 1465 1144 -21.9%
Mid-Ulster 21239 19935 -6.1%
Newry & Armagh 18857 20488 8.6%
North Antrim 5265 5143 -2.3%
North Down 250 273 9.2%
South Antrim 4729 4699 -0.6%
South Down 12236 12186 -0.4%
Strangford 1161 876 -24.5%
Upper Bann 10237 11593 13.2%
West Tyrone 18050 16805 -6.9%
Total 171942 176230 2.5%
+ 4,288
SDLP vote has reduced by over 11,000. Despite their catholic views on abortion etc. it kind of negates some of Tony's drivel on here.
2010 2015 Percentage
Belfast East 365 127 -65.2%
Belfast North 4,544 3,338 -26.5%
Belfast South 14,026 9,560 -31.8%
Belfast West 5,261 3,475 -33.9%
East Antrim 2,019 1,639 -18.8%
East Derry 5,399 4268 -20.9%
Fermanagh & South Tyrone 3,574 2,732 -23.6%
Foyle 16,922 17,725 4.7%
Lagan Valley 1,835 2,500 36.2%
Mid-Ulster 5,826 5,055 -13.2%
Newry & Armagh 10,526 12,026 14.3%
North Antrim 3,738 2,925 -21.7%
North Down 680 355 -47.8%
South Antrim 2,955 2,990 1.2%
South Down 20,648 18,077 -12.5%
Strangford 2,164 2,335 7.9%
Upper Bann 5,276 4,238 -19.7%
West Tyrone 5,212 6,444 23.6%
Total 110970 99809 -10.1%
-11161
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 02:52:17 PM
Ironically, 5 years of the Tories could be just the shot in the arm Nationalism in the six counties needs. The gutting of the bloated public sector, welfare reforms that will literally make people cry and the destruction of the NHS that's on the way as well as the revision of the Barnett formula will make the Republic a much, much more appealing place by 2020.
Was thinking the same - part of me isn't too annoyed on that front. Silver lining and all that.
Nothing like not backing a Armagh GAA player, times change Tony, lol. To be Honest Sinn Fein will make no inroads on old sdlp voters until they do a clear out of Representatives with Jail time shall we say! Should have done a complete clear out of the old guard and brought in all new people with no debatable backgrounds, they progress much farther in the long run. I jump between voting either party but Sinn Fein have really put me off last 10yrs to be honest.
We've had these threads before and in my opinion the Westminster election sheds no light on the issue whatsoever. If I was a nationalist in Fermanagh, I'd not be too worried that Elliot would strengthen the union, if he meets any British MPs he is not likely to impress. In an assembly election there may be some importance to who you vote for, in Westminster is matters little.
The point has been made that the nationalists in the 6 counties are poorly led, and two of the more able SF people Gildernew and MOM did not get elected. The SNP had shown what can be done, but we have little sign of a Sturgeon or Salmond.
But as I said before, there are several problems. The economy is now the issue, but SF continue to have policies that concentrate of taking money from those who build the economy and giving it to other people, some deserving, some not. They have very little focus on growing the economy, only on passing around the moolah. Their policies in the south are on this basis and they will now be stranded, as the austerity is largely over without any positive contribution from them.
But the main point, which also seems to have passed by some posters here, is that the South is not the problem. The problem is in the North and its complete and utter bankruptcy. If SF want a UI then they must put NI on some sort of solid basis, but there is almost no sign of any glimmer of realisation that this is the case, they continue to argue for subsidy after subsidy, implying that they do not want a UI anytime soon. Oddly enough, yesterdays election may lead to a bit of a crash diet for NI, as Cameron will be cutting expenditure generally and he cannot really treat NI more favourably than Scotland. Meanwhile FG in the 26 will be cutting taxes, restoring cuts and so on. This may make a UI more attractive, but unless NI can be whipped into shape it will not be a proper suitor.
NI doesn't work politically. Never has or will. Everything is based on bigotry and that won't change anytime soon. It's one of the reasons why I haven't voted in years.
Quote from: BennyCake on May 08, 2015, 06:45:34 PM
Everything is based on bigotry and that won't change anytime soon.
Surely not, this guy used to read the news for UTV and he definitely sounds more impartial these days...
The Ulster Unionist leader Mike Nesbitt said the Fermanagh and South Tyrone seat had been an election priority.
"After the local government [election] last year I took my blank page for this campaign and what I wanted at number one was to win back for unionism, off Sinn Féin, the most westerly constituency in the United Kingdom, because that sends out a massive positive message to unionism."
I do not understand people who claim to be fed up and don't vote.How will change come about?
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 07:11:52 PM
I do not understand people who claim to be fed up and don't vote.How will change come about?
should people then just vote for the sake of voting? maybe they don't bother voting because they feel there is no one worth voting for, no one that will make a difference.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 08, 2015, 06:26:50 PM
We've had these threads before and in my opinion the Westminster election sheds no light on the issue whatsoever. If I was a nationalist in Fermanagh, I'd not be too worried that Elliot would strengthen the union, if he meets any British MPs he is not likely to impress. In an assembly election there may be some importance to who you vote for, in Westminster is matters little.
The point has been made that the nationalists in the 6 counties are poorly led, and two of the more able SF people Gildernew and MOM did not get elected. The SNP had shown what can be done, but we have little sign of a Sturgeon or Salmond.
But as I said before, there are several problems. The economy is now the issue, but SF continue to have policies that concentrate of taking money from those who build the economy and giving it to other people, some deserving, some not. They have very little focus on growing the economy, only on passing around the moolah. Their policies in the south are on this basis and they will now be stranded, as the austerity is largely over without any positive contribution from them.
But the main point, which also seems to have passed by some posters here, is that the South is not the problem. The problem is in the North and its complete and utter bankruptcy. If SF want a UI then they must put NI on some sort of solid basis, but there is almost no sign of any glimmer of realisation that this is the case, they continue to argue for subsidy after subsidy, implying that they do not want a UI anytime soon. Oddly enough, yesterdays election may lead to a bit of a crash diet for NI, as Cameron will be cutting expenditure generally and he cannot really treat NI more favourably than Scotland. Meanwhile FG in the 26 will be cutting taxes, restoring cuts and so on. This may make a UI more attractive, but unless NI can be whipped into shape it will not be a proper suitor.
SF never wanted MOM elected to this seat, he's needed in the Assembly. Westminster MPs are the least effective political jobs in the 6 counties (abstentionist or not).
There are a range of candidates standing,from the extreme to moderate to non sectarian.Not voting definitely will not change anything
Quote from: SHEEDY on May 08, 2015, 07:32:47 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 07:11:52 PM
I do not understand people who claim to be fed up and don't vote.How will change come about?
should people then just vote for the sake of voting? maybe they don't bother voting because they feel there is no one worth voting for, no one that will make a difference.
When I vote in the North I don't really expect to make a difference but do so to affirm the person who I see as reflecting values that I have. A party whose leader has been found to not have upholded decency in dealing with a family problem of abuse is one thing. A party body and supporters who react by closing ranks to protect the reputation of the party above all else represents values that I wouldn't want to support. Crikey, sounds like I am describing the Catholic Church.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on May 08, 2015, 06:25:30 PM
. To be Honest Sinn Fein will make no inroads on old sdlp voters until they do a clear out of Representatives with Jail time shall we say! Should have done a complete clear out of the old guard and brought in all new people with no debatable backgrounds, they progress much farther in the long run. I jump between voting either party but Sinn Fein have really put me off last 10yrs to be honest.
interesting
I didn't vote yesterday but when mallon and hume were about my Ma would have frog marched everyone of the family to make sure mallon got in. He was a real politician, I feel we have poor representatives in Ni at present save actually for Arlene Foster who I rate.
the shinners need to articulate an economic policy which is not just about welfare and utilise MOM who is a super politician, the sdlp need to get shot of mc donnell , atwood, etc who are really worse than useless.
the next 5 years will tell a tale.
SF need to get rid of Adams, Pearse Doherty is the way forward. In Derry we haven't had a good SF candidate for sometime. O' heara is not popular, I think Mitchell was last man to pull in the inbetweeners. Some of the scallies hanging off sf in derry are like dead weight. I'm a sf voter but I'm finding it increasingly difficult to put an x down as the caliber of politicians is declining.
The Westminster elections are a load of rubbish and have very little impact on the day to day running of the North. It's only a guess but I'd imagine nationalists are a lot more apathetic when it comes to voting to send MPs into a foreign parliament (or not in some cases). Sinn Fein need to transform itself into a 'fit for government' party with viable economic alternatives in the south to take the next step on the credibility ladder. This will require the removal of Adams as leader and the appointment of someone like Conor Murphy, which I can see happening before the next but one Irish election. If we have 5 years of Tory cuts in the north and Sinn Fein get their act together and ready themselves for government in 5/6 years then nationalism/republicanism will be in a much stronger place.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
How do you work that out?
SF 20,488
UU 16,312
SDLP 12,026
It would have taken anywhere between exactly 4,176 and 4,286 vote transfers from SF to SDLP for the Unionists to get in. Highly unlikely to ever get those level of transfers given the predominantly republican nature of the constituency and it would have to have been an almost equal split.
Quote from: hardstation on May 08, 2015, 09:31:09 PM
Not that it matters where I live but I wouldn't give Paul Maskey a vote if he was running against Nigel Farage.
Nor would I, as thick as a Bulls c**k
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 02:50:39 PM
Gallsman and Snoopdog you may be unprepared for pulpit rule, but thousands aren't and this is definitely impacting upon both SDLP and SF Votes.
If everyone up here unanimously voted for a United Ireland tomorrow do you think the Dublin Govt would agree or a majority of people in the 26 counties? No , me neither.
Yip, remember the time they all rejected the GFA.
Your only problem is the the 26 isn't a fundamentalist Catholic regime.
Quote from: Minder on May 08, 2015, 09:35:15 PM
Quote from: hardstation on May 08, 2015, 09:31:09 PM
Not that it matters where I live but I wouldn't give Paul Maskey a vote if he was running against Nigel Farage.
Nor would I, as thick as a Bulls c**k
"Britain's days in Ireland are numbered, and this election proves that!" - Paul Maskey MP
Quote from: muppet on May 08, 2015, 11:55:28 PM
Your only problem is the the 26 isn't a fundamentalist Catholic regime.
It will be by the time SF gets a UI at their present rate of progress.
No little about him but what's the deal with Maskey?
Anyone find it slightly bizzare that some people seem intent to ditch one abstract concept (religon) for another (nationalism)?
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2015, 12:37:31 AM
Anyone find it slightly bizzare that some people seem intent to ditch one abstract concept (religon) for another (nationalism)?
Both have been replaced by consumerism.
When was the last time SF actively campaigned for a UI?
Quote from: armaghniac on May 09, 2015, 12:52:37 AM
Quote from: omaghjoe on May 09, 2015, 12:37:31 AM
Anyone find it slightly bizzare that some people seem intent to ditch one abstract concept (religon) for another (nationalism)?
Both have been replaced by consumerism.
Ha your right!
A sure harbinger of the decline of society
Previously the church was right in everything it said and done
Then came the notion of all things "Irish" were better just because they were "Irish"
Now the quest to gather material wealth supercedes them both "sure that doesn't put any more money in your pocket would you be bothered with it?"
Although I have to say the desire for a binge drinking session is still high up there on a lot of people priorities although I suppose that is a form of consumerism but at least there is a social aspect to that.....maybe there is hope for us yet!
I think unionism is better led than nationalism.No matter what you think of them the leaders stick rigidly to their policies and beliefs, don't give an inch (unlike nationalists who lose but convince too many people they actually won) and today the union is stronger than ever.
I think both Robinson and Nesbitt (neither of whom are OO members) are both well placed now to reach out to Catholics/nationalists of a small n,who value the economic benefits of the Union,which I believe both Robinson and Nesbitt genuinely want to do.
Quote from: Ulick on May 08, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
I think that the Shinners have lost their way somewhat, the retention of Adams in spite of all the controversy which has tainted him of late and the insistence in promoting the likes of the Maskey's and Caral who are street wise but not very able politicians is also an issue. The Stoops are barely hanging together themselves let alone being able to get agreement with SF. A new direction is needed. I have said here before, not unlike the SNP nationalism needs to agree as a whole north and south what a UI would look like, and what protection there would be for unionists. I do think that if economically a UI made sense to many Unionists that they would vote that way.
Tony I now have reached the conclusion that an intelligent man such as yourself does not actually believe the right wing anti rights crap that you post...you are baiting us!
While I agree a new direction is needed much of what you say doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
1. Adams has effectively been gone from northern politics for years and has overseen the rise of the Party in the south.
2. Not sure which Maskey you are referring to but neither have had much of a promotion. Alex has been moved back west to make room for Mairtin O'Muilleoir (a good move) and Paul has a Westminster seat, which in SF terms isn't really a top job.
3. Caral Ni Chuilin could do better but they're not exactly bursting at the seams with experienced people in Stormont.
4. The SNP in Scotland hasn't really articulated what an independent Scotland will look like either, rather they put forward a vision or positive notion of a Scottish identity which people have bought into. It would be a waste of time and resources for SF to start putting out their all-Ireland stall for others to knock it down, and besides it's not for them to decide what a reunified state will look like.
5. The economic argument will never win Unionists over, if it did we would have had UI ten years ago.
I am not asking for a SF vision but a shared vision across nationalism.
Adams is a dose IMO and still looms large, Maria Cahill, Jean Mcconville etc...
The Maskeys both of them trot out with their ridiculous grammar/diction.
The SNP have brought on board the Irish Labour vote in Scotland...no mean feat and they have a strategy for independance albeit the detail needs firmed up.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
There in lies the nationalist problem...first item on every agenda a split. Hard as it is to take some of the shit the sinners come out with they have enough good people to take my vote. The stoops would rather see Dodds/Wellls/McCrea get a vote than a shinner. you are right on the new party/direction.
Despite the idea that Sinn Féin have had a bad election, their percentage and overall vote total hasn't really drastically changed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in#Westminister_elections
If Sinn Féin are the largest party in the next election then they will elect the first minister and possibly finance minister. It remains to be seen whether that will or even could be the case, but it certainly has been a lingering possibility for a while. The UUP gains, and even Long's performance in East Belfast, might prove to break up a few of the unionist parties.That in itself would be a huge shot in the arm for northern nationalism.
I see Bernie and the anti abortion lobby in Fermanagh S Tyrone are claiming their distribution of 20,000 leaflets across the constituency helped to unseat Gildernew,in today's Irish News
Quote from: stibhan on May 09, 2015, 09:58:55 AM
Despite the idea that Sinn Féin have had a bad election, their percentage and overall vote total hasn't really drastically changed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in#Westminister_elections
If Sinn Féin are the largest party in the next election then they will elect the first minister and possibly finance minister. It remains to be seen whether that will or even could be the case, but it certainly has been a lingering possibility for a while. The UUP gains, and even Long's performance in East Belfast, might prove to break up a few of the unionist parties.That in itself would be a huge shot in the arm for northern nationalism.
A Sinn fein finance minister!?. 1,2 skip a few 99,100
Things will revert to type during the next Assembly election,with DUP using the threat of SF First Minister to push the UUP back towards oblivion.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on May 09, 2015, 11:20:48 AM
Quote from: stibhan on May 09, 2015, 09:58:55 AM
Despite the idea that Sinn Féin have had a bad election, their percentage and overall vote total hasn't really drastically changed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinn_F%C3%A9in#Westminister_elections
If Sinn Féin are the largest party in the next election then they will elect the first minister and possibly finance minister. It remains to be seen whether that will or even could be the case, but it certainly has been a lingering possibility for a while. The UUP gains, and even Long's performance in East Belfast, might prove to break up a few of the unionist parties.That in itself would be a huge shot in the arm for northern nationalism.
A Sinn fein finance minister!?. 1,2 skip a few 99,100
SF would have no interest taking on Finance. The days of giveaways are over here.
I thought they were priming MOM for the finance job?
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 09, 2015, 09:19:26 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
There in lies the nationalist problem...first item on every agenda a split. Hard as it is to take some of the shit the sinners come out with they have enough good people to take my vote. The stoops would rather see Dodds/Wellls/McCrea get a vote than a shinner. you are right on the new party/direction.
That's horseshit. You can't translate SDLP voters voting for the SDLP into a preference for unionists over Shinners.
I'm not from the area but maybe Gildernew didn't get enough votes because she simply didn't deliver for or represent her constituency enough when she was in office.
As for this whole thread. I don't think nationalism is in decline but faith in the two nationalist parties has.
Quote from: OakleafCounty on May 09, 2015, 03:37:56 PM
As for this whole thread. I don't think nationalism is in decline but faith in the two nationalist parties has.
I think that statement is pretty much bang on.
Quote from: the_daddy on May 08, 2015, 11:39:28 AM
Too many people from a Nationalist background are content within the UK.
Strange statement. It implies both that
a) there would be an acceptable number of people from a Nationalist background that should be aontent within the UK
b) That there is somehow something wrong with being content within the UK if you are from a Nationalist background.
Quote from: LeoMc on May 08, 2015, 11:37:31 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:02:53 AM
Unionist vote has increased by approx 2% and the Nationalist vote is in decline, share down by over 3%. FST gone. Surely this is the start of the end for nationalists in the North.
But are the overall numbers down?
This could be more about Unionist parties getting better at getting their voters out.
Unionist did get their vote out. It paid dividends for them in East Belfast. It did not pay a dividend for society.
It paid a dividend for them in FST but to be honest that constituency offered very little to a voter seeking progressive representation. The result was a fight between Tomosaurus and the invisible woman
Quote from: Muzz on May 08, 2015, 04:32:15 PM
Sinn Fein actual votes increased by 4,288 between 2010 and 2015
O' Muilleoir got over 5,000 votes in South Belfast, where they didn't stand in 2010, so strip that out and the number of votes is slightly down.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
I believe that Alasdair McDonnell and Gerry Adams are a big turn off for many nationalists, certainly for me they are.
Agree wholeheartedly.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
On the SF side McGuinness, Conor Murphy, Michelle Gildernew and a few others mitigate the effect,
Can't see it myself. McGuiness was poor in the UTV debate
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
on the SDLP side Big Dolly is even worse than McDonnell.
On the SDLP side Durkan has made intelligent and dignified contributions to his constituents, political debate within NI and political discourse in Westminster on wide range of issues. A first rate politician in my view. Whether SDLP have the talent coming through to widen their appeal and to replace the last of the old guard is at best questionable and probably outright depressing
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
On an aside Martina Anderson was a disaster on TV last night, Reg Empty and Arlene Foster wiped the floor with her.
Anderson just doesn't have the grey matter to be in the role that she is in. An exceptional poor politician with little qalification for the role. If SF ran a donkey on a stick in the european elections they would get someone elected.
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 11:48:04 AM
I'd agree that a UI now does not appeal to many Catholics.
And that should not be a surprise
Quote from: Muzz on May 08, 2015, 04:32:15 PM
SDLP vote has reduced by over 11,000. Despite their catholic views on abortion etc. it kind of negates some of Tony's drivel on here.
The SDLP's problem on these issues is that they are a bit 'wishy-washy'. On marriage equality, they have some members for any some against, so nobody is happy. On abortion, they're fairly Catholic, but McDonnell made some absolutely ridiculous comments on the topic, especially considering he's a doctor.
Quote from: yellowcard on May 08, 2015, 08:58:42 PM
The Westminster elections are a load of rubbish and have very little impact on the day to day running of the North. It's only a guess but I'd imagine nationalists are a lot more apathetic when it comes to voting to send MPs into a foreign parliament (or not in some cases). Sinn Fein need to transform itself into a 'fit for government' party with viable economic alternatives in the south to take the next step on the credibility ladder. This will require the removal of Adams as leader and the appointment of someone like Conor Murphy, which I can see happening before the next but one Irish election. If we have 5 years of Tory cuts in the north and Sinn Fein get their act together and ready themselves for government in 5/6 years then nationalism/republicanism will be in a much stronger place.
Not a hope. For a number of reasons.
1 - Murphy doesn't represent the clean break with the violent past that they need.
2 - No one in the south has a clue who he is.
3 - He didn't exactly impress as a Minister.
Quote from: general_lee on May 08, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
Nationalist apathy is the big problem.
Apathetic nationalism doesn't really exist.
If someone believes in or aspires towards a United Ireland then they are an Irish Nationalist.
If someone from a catholic/nationalist background does believe in/aspire towards an United Ireland they are not an apathetic nationalist . They are not a nationalist at all.
Quote from: Ulick on May 08, 2015, 03:49:52 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on May 08, 2015, 03:33:19 PM
I think that the Shinners have lost their way somewhat, the retention of Adams in spite of all the controversy which has tainted him of late and the insistence in promoting the likes of the Maskey's and Caral who are street wise but not very able politicians is also an issue. The Stoops are barely hanging together themselves let alone being able to get agreement with SF. A new direction is needed. I have said here before, not unlike the SNP nationalism needs to agree as a whole north and south what a UI would look like, and what protection there would be for unionists. I do think that if economically a UI made sense to many Unionists that they would vote that way.
Tony I now have reached the conclusion that an intelligent man such as yourself does not actually believe the right wing anti rights crap that you post...you are baiting us!
While I agree a new direction is needed much of what you say doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
1. Adams has effectively been gone from northern politics for years and has overseen the rise of the Party in the south.
2. Not sure which Maskey you are referring to but neither have had much of a promotion. Alex has been moved back west to make room for Mairtin O'Muilleoir (a good move) and Paul has a Westminster seat, which in SF terms isn't really a top job.
3. Caral Ni Chuilin could do better but they're not exactly bursting at the seams with experienced people in Stormont.
4. The SNP in Scotland hasn't really articulated what an independent Scotland will look like either, rather they put forward a vision or positive notion of a Scottish identity which people have bought into. It would be a waste of time and resources for SF to start putting out their all-Ireland stall for others to knock it down, and besides it's not for them to decide what a reunified state will look like.
5. The economic argument will never win Unionists over, if it did we would have had UI ten years ago.
They published a 670 page document ahead of the referendum. They articulated exactly what they wanted an independent Scotland to look like.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 12:37:45 PM
Time for nationalist people to reflect where they are going and do they really want to go there? Into a Republic which sold them out nearly 100 years ago and treats "N Ireland" as part of its Foreign Affairs and looks upon all of us with less warmth than they do their UK Royals heroes?
SDLP and Sinn Fein have achieved little and are further alienating themselves from their core constituencies by their anti catholic stances on homosexuality and abortion etc.Just check today's Irish News letters page to see the impact this is having.
I believe Northern Nationalists need a new party that can unite the vast majority of us,but first we must decide in which direction we want to go.
Did Susan Ann White not put your views to the electoral test with predictable results?
Quote from: LCohen on May 09, 2015, 04:16:49 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 08, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
Nationalist apathy is the big problem.
Apathetic nationalism doesn't really exist.
If someone believes in or aspires towards a United Ireland then they are an Irish Nationalist.
If someone from a catholic/nationalist background does believe in/aspire towards an United Ireland they are not an apathetic nationalist . They are not a nationalist at all.
Semantics. Apathy at the ability of the current set of nationalist politicians to do anything positive for what they want either short or long term.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 12:37:45 PM
SDLP and Sinn Fein have achieved little and are further alienating themselves from their core constituencies by their anti catholic stances on homosexuality and abortion etc.Just check today's Irish News letters page to see the impact this is having.
I believe Northern Nationalists need a new party that can unite the vast majority of us,but first we must decide in which direction we want to go.
There was a woman in Tyrone standing on your side on many of these moral issues. She got 160 odd votes.
If there was to be a new Northern Nationalist party, it would have to be a secular one, with even less ties to Catholicism.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
Personally I think the SF & SDLP votes going to Dobson in Upper Bann would have had a much more positive otcome for the people of NI. Its was going to be a Unionist either way but anyone without the wit to differentiate between Dobson and the fool who got in really does not understand the issues at play
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 07:11:52 PM
I do not understand people who claim to be fed up and don't vote.How will change come about?
First time I have every agreed with Tony
Quote from: LCohen on May 09, 2015, 04:28:45 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
Personally I think the SF & SDLP votes going to Dobson in Upper Bann would have had a much more positive otcome for the people of NI. Its was going to be a Unionist either way but anyone without the wit to differentiate between Dobson and the fool who got in really does not understand the issues at play
I'd agree.
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 09, 2015, 04:22:15 PM
Quote from: LCohen on May 09, 2015, 04:16:49 PM
Quote from: general_lee on May 08, 2015, 11:55:02 AM
Nationalist apathy is the big problem.
Apathetic nationalism doesn't really exist.
If someone believes in or aspires towards a United Ireland then they are an Irish Nationalist.
If someone from a catholic/nationalist background does believe in/aspire towards an United Ireland they are not an apathetic nationalist . They are not a nationalist at all.
Semantics. Apathy at the ability of the current set of nationalist politicians to do anything positive for what they want either short or long term.
Respectfully its not semantics. The implication that catholics and those from a catholic background are automatically nationalists and that if they happen to not aspire to an united ireland, that they are apathetic nationalists is wrong.
LCohen,it just took you a little time that's all.
Any new nationalist party will have to defend catholic values,as neither the SDLP or SF do and are paying the price electorally.Lets face it,if both did they wouldn't lose any votes on account of this.
hmm. Respectfully i disagree or think you missed the point.
The apathy is towards voting not towards wanting a united Ireland. If you have apathy towards a united ireland then yes you're not really a nationalist.
Fearon it doesn't always boil down to religion. For you yes not for everyone else.
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 09, 2015, 04:47:29 PM
hmm. Respectfully i disagree or think you missed the point.
The apathy is towards voting not towards wanting a united Ireland. If you have apathy towards a united ireland then yes you're not really a nationalist.
I'm not saying this to be contrary but I really do feel its you who has missed the point. Whilst there is a general apathy towards voting in general there is also a mis-categorisation of some voters/non-volters who don't aspire to an United Ireland. They are still somehow categorsed by some, including some political commentators, as apathetic-nationalists as if nationalism is some sort of ethnicity or blood line
You like to categorise everyone, whether you are right or wrong!
Quote from: topcuppla on May 09, 2015, 05:32:53 PM
You like to categorise everyone, whether you are right or wrong!
[/quote
Relevance??
Intommy Religion gets the DUP to votes in the North (they are certainly not punished for fundamentalist views at the ballot box) and it is important for many catholic nationalists too.
Quote from: LCohen on May 09, 2015, 04:28:45 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
Personally I think the SF & SDLP votes going to Dobson in Upper Bann would have had a much more positive otcome for the people of NI. Its was going to be a Unionist either way but anyone without the wit to differentiate between Dobson and the fool who got in really does not understand the issues at play
Hopefully her huge ego will take a dent and she will disappear for a while. gave up buying the local rag as it had turned into the dobson chronicle.
You'd think there was a major crisis on our hands judging by some of the comments on here. SF lost a seat they won by 4 votes or something the last time. Hardly a shock. The DUP hardly excelled and that was with an electoral pact.
SF vote slightly declined and God knows where the SDLP without the tactical votes of unionists.Hard to deny that there is a decline that is worrying.It could be anticipated that Garden Centre section may well return to Unionism,if Nesbitt can continue the momentum and modernising,while there appears to be a growing section of nationalism that is disengaging.
Can't help but feel if they put the right name into derry city there's a seat there for the taking.
Quote from: An Watcher on May 09, 2015, 09:20:16 PM
Can't help but feel if they put the right name into derry city there's a seat there for the taking.
Who, SF? Well they've tried enough times and Durkan extended his majority this time. Can't see anyone else who would take it. They could try McGuinness if they really wanted to try and unseat the SDLP, but that would mean abandoning the Assembly, and if he didn't win (which is very possible) it would be very embarrassing.
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 09, 2015, 10:50:12 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on May 09, 2015, 09:20:16 PM
Can't help but feel if they put the right name into derry city there's a seat there for the taking.
Who, SF? Well they've tried enough times and Durkan extended his majority this time. Can't see anyone else who would take it. They could try McGuinness if they really wanted to try and unseat the SDLP, but that would mean abandoning the Assembly, and if he didn't win (which is very possible) it would be very embarrassing.
Durkan is about as rock solid as you will get and is the best SDLP performer by a fair distance, in my opinion.
Some good points on this blog.
http://endgameinulster.blogspot.com/2015/05/nationalism-whats-gone-wrong.html
He makes the point that the unionists beat the drum with flegs etc to get more people out voting in East Belfast.
It would be interesting to study the turnout, it said on the radio that the turnout in Foyle was the lowest in history, pretty much.
I'd say if you looked at Fermanagh, I'd say the turnout in nationalist regions was lower than historic values, the unionist towns less so.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 09, 2015, 06:23:16 PM
Intommy Religion gets the DUP to votes in the North (they are certainly not punished for fundamentalist views at the ballot box) and it is important for many catholic nationalists too.
Not because the voters are religious. It's because of a lack of intelligence.
Whatever works,but religious views are not a vote loser up here, but having none are,as the SDLP and Sinn Fein are finding out to their cost.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 09, 2015, 11:30:16 PM
Whatever works,but religious views are not a vote loser up here, but having none are,as the SDLP and Sinn Fein are finding out to their cost.
There have been suggestions that some of the garden centre Prods voted for pro gay marriage Kinahan to unseat McCrea.
There is a vote for both sides, I imagine.
Probably true,but Six counties is still a very conservative society with a strong religious ethos on both sides,and the proportion of Catholics not voting for SF or SDLP on account of the two parties' support for gay marriage is costing them seats.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 09, 2015, 11:18:05 PM
Some good points on this blog.
http://endgameinulster.blogspot.com/2015/05/nationalism-whats-gone-wrong.html
He makes the point that the unionists beat the drum with flegs etc to get more people out voting in East Belfast.
It would be interesting to study the turnout, it said on the radio that the turnout in Foyle was the lowest in history, pretty much.
I'd say if you looked at Fermanagh, I'd say the turnout in nationalist regions was lower than historic values, the unionist towns less so.
Get the calculator out
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/afst.htm (http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/afst.htm)
So Maskey got 3000 more votes than last time?
Quote from: ONeill on May 09, 2015, 11:58:01 PM
So Maskey got 3000 more votes than last time?
Last time was a by-election, on a 37% turnout.
Quote from: Minder on May 10, 2015, 12:07:03 AM
Quote from: ONeill on May 09, 2015, 11:58:01 PM
So Maskey got 3000 more votes than last time?
Last time was a by-election, on a 37% turnout.
Must have been a black taxi strike that day.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on May 09, 2015, 11:45:17 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 09, 2015, 11:18:05 PM
Some good points on this blog.
http://endgameinulster.blogspot.com/2015/05/nationalism-whats-gone-wrong.html
He makes the point that the unionists beat the drum with flegs etc to get more people out voting in East Belfast.
It would be interesting to study the turnout, it said on the radio that the turnout in Foyle was the lowest in history, pretty much.
I'd say if you looked at Fermanagh, I'd say the turnout in nationalist regions was lower than historic values, the unionist towns less so.
Get the calculator out
http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/afst.htm (http://www.ark.ac.uk/elections/afst.htm)
Well the turnout was up by 4000 and if this split 60/40 unionist/nationalist then you have the result that ensued. I think the unionists got the vote out more, and if you have some stats for individual polling stations then this would probably show this. I just don't think that not sending an MP to England was an existential issue for nationalists.
Quote from: charlieTully on May 09, 2015, 07:00:01 PM
Quote from: LCohen on May 09, 2015, 04:28:45 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 08, 2015, 04:10:11 PM
Also if Armagh's Justin Mc Nulty had done just slightly better yesterday, Newry and Armagh would also have a Unionist MP to-day.
Personally I think the SF & SDLP votes going to Dobson in Upper Bann would have had a much more positive otcome for the people of NI. Its was going to be a Unionist either way but anyone without the wit to differentiate between Dobson and the fool who got in really does not understand the issues at play
Hopefully her huge ego will take a dent and she will disappear for a while. gave up buying the local rag as it had turned into the dobson chronicle.
Irrespective of all that she simply cannot be worse than Simpson. Its an impossibility
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 09, 2015, 10:50:12 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on May 09, 2015, 09:20:16 PM
Can't help but feel if they put the right name into derry city there's a seat there for the taking.
Who, SF? Well they've tried enough times and Durkan extended his majority this time. Can't see anyone else who would take it. They could try McGuinness if they really wanted to try and unseat the SDLP, but that would mean abandoning the Assembly, and if he didn't win (which is very possible) it would be very embarrassing.
Completely agree.
McGuiness was out of his depth trying to discuss wider political issue with Durkan on the TV debate.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 09, 2015, 11:30:16 PM
Whatever works,but religious views are not a vote loser up here, but having none are,as the SDLP and Sinn Fein are finding out to their cost.
What is the evidence for this. Voter turnout is down but where is your specific evidence for the this particular rationale for not voting? Or are you just making it up?
I have no doubt the 20,000 anti abortion leaflets distributed in Fermanagh/S Tyrone had an impact.Also hearing stories of Catholic clergy advising parishioners note to vote for parties opposing Catholic doctrine.
You seem to ignore the impact it would have on other voters if SF and the SDLP had policies that mirrored the teaching of the Catholic Church. Not a hope i'd vote for either of them, not even a preference in a PR election. I doubt i'd be alone. Conservative policies might work for a few of the older crowd, like yourself, but they're a massive turn-off for younger voters.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 03:30:05 PM
I have no doubt the 20,000 anti abortion leaflets distributed in Fermanagh/S Tyrone had an impact.Also hearing stories of Catholic clergy advising parishioners note to vote for parties opposing Catholic doctrine.
You might not doubt it but that is not the same as evidence.
You have to account for any of their existing vote that they would lose if they made a dash for a theocracy
Make no mistake about it,the failure to defend Catholic teaching is costing both SF and SDLP votes.Now who would you vote for if they did defend Catholic teaching? DUP? UUP? ;D
A new nationalist party is needed to capture the broadest range of the nationalist vote in the a North.Of course no one will agree 100% with every single policy but I would suggest that in order to capture the broadest section the new Party must be and have the following essentials:
Slightly left of centre.
Defending and promoting (ok not Catholic specifically) core Christian values.
No baggage
Respect for all cultures.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 06:39:26 PM
Make no mistake about it,the failure to defend Catholic teaching is costing both SF and SDLP votes.Now who would you vote for if they did defend Catholic teaching? DUP? UUP? ;D
Alliance, Greens, spoil my vote or not bother.
I'd vote for Tom Elliot before I'd vote for Tony Fearon. In fact I'd vote for Tom Elliot as First Minister if it gave the board a 2 day respite from Tony's posts.
QuoteSlightly left of centre.
Defending and promoting (ok not Catholic specifically) core Christian values.
No baggage
Respect for all cultures.
Slightly left of centre (where all the theocrats hang out?)
Defending and promoting (ok not Catholic specifically) core Christian values - cool, so married priests, women priests and acceptance of homosexuality are all in?
No baggage - there's no room for it in the BnB
Respect for all cultures - except non Christian ones (see point 2)
Sign me up.
So sad.You are basically saying you are intolerant of Christian belief
Yep - in your mind that is exactly what I'm saying.
And your intolerance of Christianity alone would be the deciding factor in withholding your vote from this new party,even though you might agree with all their other major policies?
Well given you're having this conversation with a set of my beliefs that exist only in your mind, perhaps you'd be better off asking yourself that question. If that is not too trippy for you.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 06:39:26 PM
Make no mistake about it,the failure to defend Catholic teaching is costing both SF and SDLP votes.Now who would you vote for if they did defend Catholic teaching? DUP? UUP? ;D
I can only assume you voted UUP or DUP (or maybe TUV) yourself on Thursday? The constitutional issue must be a very minor priority for you when compared with the defence of Christian vaues.
The constitutional issue wasn't up for decision.
The Christian ethos will always be a priority.After all one has to live with the decision for eternity,not for a temporary period of earthly government
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:14:58 PM
The Christian ethos will always be a priority.After all one has to live with the decision for eternity,not for a temporary period of earthly government
i worry about overcrowding in the afterlife, if i say extra hail marys will i get an executive suite?
Plenty of room for all who will be there. Question is,will you?
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Plenty of room for all who will be there. Question is,will you?
No.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Plenty of room for all who will be there. Question is,will you?
I would not be so presumtous as to play God.
I don't play God.It is clear in scripture what has to be done for salvation.
Are you doing it?
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:14:58 PM
The Christian ethos will always be a priority.After all one has to live with the decision for eternity,not for a temporary period of earthly government
Maybe the Hindus will get you, Tony
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 09:20:27 PM
I don't play God.It is clear in scripture what has to be done for salvation.
First prize is eternal life
Second prize is 72 virgins
Third prize is reincarnation in Larne
the decision of the judges is final and no correspondence can be entertained
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 06:39:26 PM
Make no mistake about it,the failure to defend Catholic teaching is costing both SF and SDLP votes.Now who would you vote for if they did defend Catholic teaching? DUP? UUP? ;D
Utter nonsense! Would the fact the South will overwhelmingly vote for Gay marriage (with the elder generation forming a larger part of the No vote) not point to the fact the Church's teachings are less relevant to the electorate than they were?
Just because you are devout and know a few people who are I don't think can form the basis for a conservative right-wing Nationalist Party... Their voter numbers would decline year on year as fossils like yourself pass on from old age!!!
Quote from: screenexile on May 10, 2015, 11:02:13 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 06:39:26 PM
Make no mistake about it,the failure to defend Catholic teaching is costing both SF and SDLP votes.Now who would you vote for if they did defend Catholic teaching? DUP? UUP? ;D
Utter nonsense! Would the fact the South will overwhelmingly vote for Gay marriage (with the elder generation forming a larger part of the No vote) not point to the fact the Church's teachings are less relevant to the electorate than they were?
Just because you are devout and know a few people who are I don't think can form the basis for a conservative right-wing Nationalist Party... Their voter numbers would decline year on year as fossils like yourself pass on from old age!!!
Eh, you're wrong there Screen - it's actually socially conservative, Christian, Nationalist and...left of centre.
Sounds like a great party, your head would surely be spinning after it.
Quote from: Minder on May 09, 2015, 11:02:22 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 09, 2015, 10:50:12 PM
Quote from: An Watcher on May 09, 2015, 09:20:16 PM
Can't help but feel if they put the right name into derry city there's a seat there for the taking.
Who, SF? Well they've tried enough times and Durkan extended his majority this time. Can't see anyone else who would take it. They could try McGuinness if they really wanted to try and unseat the SDLP, but that would mean abandoning the Assembly, and if he didn't win (which is very possible) it would be very embarrassing.
Durkan is about as rock solid as you will get and is the best SDLP performer by a fair distance, in my opinion.
I would agree with that, unfortunately he is about the only on. Conal McDevitt was another and given the antics of McCausland and others you can only speculate that current senior SDLP people saw him as a threat. There needs to be a realignment between SF and the SDLP to give a credible nationalist vision and leadership, the many many young nationalist who do not vote are turned off by many of our current politicians. Unionism is quite happy to join up to shore up there vote. As things stand SF will not regain FST and South Belfast will go soon to another pact.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 07:29:12 PM
And your intolerance of Christianity alone would be the deciding factor in withholding your vote from this new party,even though you might agree with all their other major policies?
Tony you are guilty of intolerance yourself, surely that is not a Christian value? Did Christ not teach tolerance of those who are different?
I am not guilty of intolerance.Not endorsing a certain lifestyle is not intolerance
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 09:20:27 PM
I don't play God.It is clear in scripture what has to be done for salvation.
Hate everything remotely different to you?
On the contrary I feel sorry for those who don't and fear the consequences for them
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 08:22:23 PM
On the contrary I feel sorry for those who don't and fear the consequences for them
...because of course your fate will be different?
Hopefully!
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 08:51:17 PM
Hopefully!
At least you admit hoping they won't get the eternal reward which you are willing to persecute anyone to get.
Quote from: muppet on May 11, 2015, 10:27:04 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 08:51:17 PM
Hopefully!
At least you admit hoping they won't get the eternal reward which you are willing to persecute anyone to get.
Funny how this debate on 'nationalism' has turned into one on Tony's beliefs (again)... I'll probably go to eternal damnation, but I'm intolerant of Tony's constant 'taking over' of threads and turning them into what he believes ones.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 11, 2015, 10:30:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 11, 2015, 10:27:04 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 08:51:17 PM
Hopefully!
At least you admit hoping they won't get the eternal reward which you are willing to persecute anyone to get.
Funny how this debate on 'nationalism' has turned into one on Tony's beliefs (again)... I'll probably go to eternal damnation, but I'm intolerant of Tony's constant 'taking over' of threads and turning them into what he believes ones.
[/quote
Yeah it was an interesting thread at the start, not so much now.
It is entirely relevant,the fact that the SDLP and SF lost votes (and probably a seat in SF's case) by promoting policies contrary to catholic faith.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 05:51:52 PM
I am not guilty of intolerance.Not endorsing a certain lifestyle is not intolerance
For the upteenth time, being gay is not a "lifestyle" choice. Given the historic discrimination and possibility of imprisonment, coupled with the ongoing vitriol from dinasours like yourself, why would anyone choose to be gay? Do you really think that people choose to be so? No doubt you will fail to answer this question.
Iris will sort them gays out.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 10:47:12 PM
It is entirely relevant,the fact that the SDLP and SF lost votes (and probably a seat in SF's case) by promoting policies contrary to catholic faith.
Have you established this 'fact'?
Can we see some evidence please?
It is a lifestyle choice,Mick,as is everything we do that is free of coercion.
Muppet there is ample anecdotal evidence that people decided to withhold their votes from SF and SDLP on account of their support for policies that run contrary to Catholic doctrine,including the 20,000 leaflets distributed in Fermanagh /S Tyrone.Unless both parties change tack,they will haemorrhage votes on this issue.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 05:51:30 AM
Muppet there is ample anecdotal evidence that people decided to withhold their votes from SF and SDLP on account of their support for policies that run contrary to Catholic doctrine,including the 20,000 leaflets distributed in Fermanagh /S Tyrone.Unless both parties change tack,they will haemorrhage votes on this issue.
Again, you simply ignore the support of liberal voters they would lose by doing so.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 05:51:30 AM
It is a lifestyle choice,Mick,as is everything we do that is free of coercion.
Muppet there is ample anecdotal evidence that people decided to withhold their votes from SF and SDLP on account of their support for policies that run contrary to Catholic doctrine,including the 20,000 leaflets distributed in Fermanagh /S Tyrone.Unless both parties change tack,they will haemorrhage votes on this issue.
Is your attraction to women something that you have no control over / innate to you or is that also a lifestyle choice?
Quote from: michaelg on May 12, 2015, 07:34:57 AM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 05:51:30 AM
It is a lifestyle choice,Mick,as is everything we do that is free of coercion.
Muppet there is ample anecdotal evidence that people decided to withhold their votes from SF and SDLP on account of their support for policies that run contrary to Catholic doctrine,including the 20,000 leaflets distributed in Fermanagh /S Tyrone.Unless both parties change tack,they will haemorrhage votes on this issue.
Is your attraction to women something that you have no control over / innate to you or is that also a lifestyle choice?
Guys, the only reason Tony is allowed to take over threads is because you guys give him the the oxygen... stop feeding the troll please...
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 05:51:30 AM
It is a lifestyle choice,Mick,as is everything we do that is free of coercion.
Muppet there is ample anecdotal evidence that people decided to withhold their votes from SF and SDLP on account of their support for policies that run contrary to Catholic doctrine,including the 20,000 leaflets distributed in Fermanagh /S Tyrone.Unless both parties change tack,they will haemorrhage votes on this issue.
So it isn't a 'fact' and you have no evidence, as usual.
If there is such a huge Catholic fundamentalist vote, where are the candidates who would hoover up all these votes? Or are they fíor abstentionists, who abstain completely from House of Commons elections? If they are, I'd vote for them.
Someday hopefully someone will manage to explain to you the difference between your opinion and the word 'fact'.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 05:51:30 AM
It is a lifestyle choice,Mick,as is everything we do that is free of coercion.
Muppet there is ample anecdotal evidence that people decided to withhold their votes from SF and SDLP on account of their support for policies that run contrary to Catholic doctrine,including the 20,000 leaflets distributed in Fermanagh /S Tyrone.Unless both parties change tack,they will haemorrhage votes on this issue.
Tony if those leaflets were to have had any effect in Fermanagh /S Tyrone you would expect the SF vote to drop and the SDLP vote to rise. In fact the opposite happened with the SF vote increasing by approx 2k and the SDLP vote declining by 1k.
I would have to say that I am aware of at least two different people who had frank exchanges of views recently with Sinn Fein canvassers, on the doorstep, over Sinn Fein's stance on abortion. In each case the Sinn Fein people indicated that it was an issue being brought up with them. It of course had no major impact if any (Newry and Armagh) but does provide anecdotal evidence that there is some disquiet around an issue that is not related to the economy or indeed the question of the union.
Abortion is perhaps one reason why there was a decline in Nationalist votes (tempted to crack a joke, but wisely backs away).
Any others?
- Fed up with the whole goddam place
- Disillusioned with politics
- Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein might take their seats
- Resigned to unionist dominance through their pact
Quote from: Orior on May 12, 2015, 12:13:19 PM
Abortion is perhaps one reason why there was a decline in Nationalist votes (tempted to crack a joke, but wisely backs away).
Any others?
- Fed up with the whole goddam place
- Disillusioned with politics
- Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein might take their seats
- Resigned to unionist dominance through their pact
Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein will never take their seats is another possible reason. Why vote for someone who won't represent you in the chamber the election is designed to fill.
Quote from: Orior on May 12, 2015, 12:13:19 PM
Abortion is perhaps one reason why there was a decline in Nationalist votes (tempted to crack a joke, but wisely backs away).
Any others?
- Fed up with the whole goddam place
- Disillusioned with politics
- Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein might take their seats
- Resigned to unionist dominance through their pact
Whether anyone likes it or not sinn fein have baggage and that stops quite a lot of nationalists voting for them. The alternative of the SDLP isn't a great one so it doesn't leave you with much.
As had been said I think there is call for another party in there - or the SDLP sort themselves out but that looks highly unlikely with current leadership.
Quote from: haveaharp on May 12, 2015, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: Orior on May 12, 2015, 12:13:19 PM
Abortion is perhaps one reason why there was a decline in Nationalist votes (tempted to crack a joke, but wisely backs away).
Any others?
- Fed up with the whole goddam place
- Disillusioned with politics
- Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein might take their seats
- Resigned to unionist dominance through their pact
Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein will never take their seats is another possible reason. Why vote for someone who won't represent you in the chamber the election is designed to fill.
I think this is something SF need to have a think about. They might loose some votes by taking the seats but possibly gain more.
Politicans here kowtow to Downing Street. Downing Street kowtow to Brussels. So what's the point?
To paraphrase Jim Royle: Democracy, my arse.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 11, 2015, 10:30:00 PM
Quote from: muppet on May 11, 2015, 10:27:04 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 11, 2015, 08:51:17 PM
Hopefully!
At least you admit hoping they won't get the eternal reward which you are willing to persecute anyone to get.
Funny how this debate on 'nationalism' has turned into one on Tony's beliefs (again)... I'll probably go to eternal damnation, but I'm intolerant of Tony's constant 'taking over' of threads and turning them into what he believes ones.
+1
Quote from: haveaharp on May 12, 2015, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: Orior on May 12, 2015, 12:13:19 PM
Abortion is perhaps one reason why there was a decline in Nationalist votes (tempted to crack a joke, but wisely backs away).
Any others?
- Fed up with the whole goddam place
- Disillusioned with politics
- Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein might take their seats
- Resigned to unionist dominance through their pact
Disgruntled by the thought that Sinn Fein will never take their seats is another possible reason. Why vote for someone who won't represent you in the chamber the election is designed to fill.
Taking seats in a British Parliament only works if you have a sizeable block and can influence the main parties. There aren't enough seats in NI to be of consequence except in extreme circumstances, but even then the parties would be divided. I would agree with SF's view that you can do as much good in lobbying. In any case many NI MP's have terrible attendance.
It is sad to see political parties in NI either taking positions on moral and religious grounds that affect the rights of others. It's a bit like the tying up of the swings on Sundays. Parties should legislate for all, allowing abortion in the limit circumstances of fatal foetal abnormality, rape or incest does not make it compulsory. Allowing same sex couples the right to marriage does not mean we all have to partake in the event. we can just ignore it if that's what we believe. I don't believe either that these issues have stalled the nationalist vote. It would appear that neither SF or the SDLP have been able to persuade the rising young catholic vote to come out, they are not as upset by flegs as their loyalist counterparts. A united Ireland at this stage does not offer them anything tangible that they can't already do, support the ROI soccer team, their county in Gaelic etc. They are comfortably Irish with a northern tint and like many before 1916 are ok with the union. SF and the SDLP are both guilty of putting narrow party interests before the wider issues.
I know of cases where so called anti Sinn Fein republicans voted tactically in order to oust SF candidates from their seats or potential of gaining a seat. Many times these people went against the grain of what any so called Irish man or woman would do in a vote and in others they wasted their vote by spoiling it. Sometimes they even chose to vote SDLP or Workers Party.
Everyone is entitled to their vote and everyone's vote is their own business but when these same people gloat that a sitting candidate is ousted by a former UDR man it stinks of hypocrisy that;-
1, they would vote for a candidate who wants to remain part of the union or someone who is swearing an oath to the British Queen
2, they would proclaim to be Irish Republican and be part of a movement claiming to want to further on the aims of the signatories of the 1916 Irish Proclaimation for Irish independence ie 1916 societies members.
These facts are supported by several posts on twitter facebook and other forms of social media.
Further more I don't think even SDLP members would be happy at loosing a nationalist seat to a unionist.
Figures show the Sinn Fein vote increased by 16000 and more since Martina Anderson was elected last year that to me does not show a drop in nationalism it shows a flaw in the voting system. UKIP hit 4 million votes yet only landed a few MP seats something not right with that system.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Plenty of room for all who will be there. Question is,will you?
Ha, Presumptuous git !! ...
I'd say there wouldn't be many takers if they saw you there snuggling up to Brady and the likes .. Ugh, what an image :-\
And the real reason a lot of people didnt come out for SF is because of their uber socialist policies .. feck all to do with what you're bubbling about..
Anybody able to give the overall percentage breakdown in the NI vote?
Quote from: AhNowRef on May 12, 2015, 03:34:28 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Plenty of room for all who will be there. Question is,will you?
Ha, Presumptuous git !! ...
I'd say there wouldn't be many takers if they saw you there snuggling up to Brady and the likes .. Ugh, what an image :-\
And the real reason a lot of people didnt come out for SF is because of their uber socialist policies .. feck all to do with what you're bubbling about..
Uber socialist policies??? What are they? What's wrong with SF policies?
Party %
DUP 25.7
SF 24.5
UUP 16.0
SDLP 13.9
APNI 8.6
UKIP 2.6
TUV 2.3
Cons 1.3
Green 1.0
Others 4.3
http://www.bbc.com/news/election/2015/results/northern_ireland
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 04:23:21 PM
Uber socialist policies??? What are they? What's wrong with SF policies?
Paying off credit card bills for a start.
Quote from: dec on May 12, 2015, 04:30:40 PM
Party %
DUP 25.7
SF 24.5
UUP 16.0
SDLP 13.9
APNI 8.6
UKIP 2.6
TUV 2.3
Cons 1.3
Green 1.0
Others 4.3
http://www.bbc.com/news/election/2015/results/northern_ireland
Anywhere we can get the number of total votes if even for the major parties
Just an observation from my part and im not overtly political.
The majority of my friend's circle are catholic males in their late 20's/early 30's. Therefore percieved as nationalist/republican.
Most of them don't vote and don't care if they are part of a United Kingdom or a United Ireland. They are totally uninterested in any sort of politics. Just generally happy to be ticking along.
Is this a trend anywhere else? They just seem happy with the status quo.
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: dec on May 12, 2015, 04:30:40 PM
Party %
DUP 25.7
SF 24.5
UUP 16.0
SDLP 13.9
APNI 8.6
UKIP 2.6
TUV 2.3
Cons 1.3
Green 1.0
Others 4.3
http://www.bbc.com/news/election/2015/results/northern_ireland
Anywhere we can get the number of total votes if even for the major parties
It is at the link in my response.
The DUP are delivering the Union, SF are not delivering a united ireland.
Should it be made compulsory to vote? It would be easy to police and if you don't vote then £1000 fine. People say they are not political what does such and such do for me? If people used their votes they would then be fit to hold the politicians to account. They could help dictate the direction the country in. Politics effects everything and I mean everything people need to understand this and this is why I think voting should be made mandatory.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 12, 2015, 04:50:36 PM
The DUP are delivering the Union, SF are not delivering a united ireland.
SF are an all island party they see themselves delivering on both sides of the border and they feel that their goals are very close. The next few years I suppose will dictate this.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 12, 2015, 04:50:36 PM
The DUP are delivering the Union, SF are not delivering a united ireland.
The DUP aren't delivering a union - they're trying to maintain it. Their barometer and sinn fein's is entirely different.
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 04:23:21 PM
Quote from: AhNowRef on May 12, 2015, 03:34:28 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 10, 2015, 08:47:55 PM
Plenty of room for all who will be there. Question is,will you?
Ha, Presumptuous git !! ...
I'd say there wouldn't be many takers if they saw you there snuggling up to Brady and the likes .. Ugh, what an image :-\
And the real reason a lot of people didnt come out for SF is because of their uber socialist policies .. feck all to do with what you're bubbling about..
Uber socialist policies??? What are they? What's wrong with SF policies?
SF are obviously the most socialist "main" party in NI .. Whilst not wanting the NHS to suffer or people who deserve/need protection on social welfare to suffer, there is a fairly strong feeling from a lot of the electorate that SF want to give just as much protection to all the lazy gobshites who cant be bothered getting off their useless asses and doing a days work ... If this is not the case then SF arent getting their message across very well !!
Oh, and paying off CC bills as Rois said ... I mean what the feck is that all about? :-/
This turns a lot of people off!
Surely the prime motivation for voting here is basically tribal,with all notions of the union or United Ireland secondary? Next year will be very interesting with the carrot of First Minister galvanising both SF and the DUP.Still lots of time for u turns and defending Catholic theology
My prediction is that Stormont will collapse within the next 12 months. The parties have already backtracked on the initial cuts and with more sure to follow and Sinn Fein in particular advocating anti austerity before the election in the ROI, there is no way they can stand over what is to follow in the north.
No way would SF walk away and put us back into "British" rule.Some sort of fudge like it's not or fault it's the Tories,or something like that
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
No way would SF walk away and put us back into "British" rule.Some sort of fudge like it's not or fault it's the Tories,or something like that
SF would walk away from Stormont of it was needed. It is quite possible that it could happen before the summer is out. They will not stand for the cuts being driven by the tory government and at the same time they know Cameron does not want a millstone like the 6 counties around their necks so to walk away and force an earlier election could be a strategy they would employ.
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
No way would SF walk away and put us back into "British" rule.Some sort of fudge like it's not or fault it's the Tories,or something like that
SF would walk away from Stormont of it was needed. It is quite possible that it could happen before the summer is out. They will not stand for the cuts being driven by the tory government and at the same time they know Cameron does not want a millstone like the 6 counties around their necks so to walk away and force an earlier election could be a strategy they would employ.
Force an election to what end? Give us more money?
An earlier UK election? What for,and even bigger Tory majority? Labour are at least two elections away from having even a faint chance
Thanks for that dec. It's a mad system surely, DUP and SF with only 1.2% between them, yet SF get half the amount of seats as them!
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 12, 2015, 09:41:12 PM
Thanks for that dec. It's a mad system surely, DUP and SF with only 1.2% between them, yet SF get half the amount of seats as them!
UKIP and SNP had a similar number of votes, but the former got 1 seat (thankfully) while the latter got 56. Some system.
Quote from: muppet on May 12, 2015, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 12, 2015, 09:41:12 PM
Thanks for that dec. It's a mad system surely, DUP and SF with only 1.2% between them, yet SF get half the amount of seats as them!
UKIP and SNP had a similar number of votes, but the former got 1 seat (thankfully) while the latter got 56. Some system.
Snp must have stood for considerably less seats though so had much less potential votes numbers wise?
Actually UKIP got nearly three times the number of votes as the SNP
Quote from: muppet on May 12, 2015, 09:53:56 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on May 12, 2015, 09:41:12 PM
Thanks for that dec. It's a mad system surely, DUP and SF with only 1.2% between them, yet SF get half the amount of seats as them!
UKIP and SNP had a similar number of votes, but the former got 1 seat (thankfully) while the latter got 56. Some system.
Between them the Greens, Libdems and UKIP got 25% of the vote and 12 seats or less than 0.5%.
Serious disenfranchisement.
Quote from: armaghniac on May 12, 2015, 09:29:39 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
No way would SF walk away and put us back into "British" rule.Some sort of fudge like it's not or fault it's the Tories,or something like that
SF would walk away from Stormont of it was needed. It is quite possible that it could happen before the summer is out. They will not stand for the cuts being driven by the tory government and at the same time they know Cameron does not want a millstone like the 6 counties around their necks so to walk away and force an earlier election could be a strategy they would employ.
Force an election to what end? Give us more money?
They have been just fine with the "Tory cuts" for the last few years. Southern elections are obviously driving things now.
Quote from: Minder on May 12, 2015, 09:59:53 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on May 12, 2015, 09:29:39 PM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 09:25:38 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 07:23:58 PM
No way would SF walk away and put us back into "British" rule.Some sort of fudge like it's not or fault it's the Tories,or something like that
SF would walk away from Stormont of it was needed. It is quite possible that it could happen before the summer is out. They will not stand for the cuts being driven by the tory government and at the same time they know Cameron does not want a millstone like the 6 counties around their necks so to walk away and force an earlier election could be a strategy they would employ.
Force an election to what end? Give us more money?
They have been just fine with the "Tory cuts" for the last few years. Southern elections are obviously driving things now.
Therein lies the rub, or the crux of the SF issue, they have to campaign for two very different electorates for votes in my opinion. If they campaign for a 'republican only' vote in the 26, they won't get many votes, whereas the NI electorate, while they say they oppose 'Tory cuts' despite implementing them they still play the republican card because they have to. The 'evils of partition' from a SF point of view.
NB, I did say in my opinion. ;)
If they walked away how would it force an earlier election?? It is hard to see how stormont can continue in current form. Tories would likely laugh at a 2 billion request now.
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 09:57:21 PM
Actually UKIP got nearly three times the number of votes as the SNP
Can you post a link (seriously I googled uk 2015 share of the vote and couldn't get anything).
Actually scratch that.
From wiki:
Party Leader Votes Seats
Conservative Party David Cameron 11,334,920 (36.9%) 331 (50.9%) 331 / 650
Labour Party Ed Miliband 9,344,328 (30.4%) 232 (35.7%) 232 / 650
UK Independence Party Nigel Farage 3,881,129 (12.6%) 1 (0.2%) 1 / 650
Liberal Democrats Nick Clegg 2,415,888 (7.9%) 8 (1.2%) 8 / 650
Scottish National Party Nicola Sturgeon 1,454,436 (4.7%) 56 (8.6%) 56 / 650
Green Party Natalie Bennett 1,157,613 (3.8%) 1 (0.2%) 1 / 650
Democratic Unionist Party Peter Robinson 184,260 (0.6%) 8 (1.2%) 8 / 650
Plaid Cymru Leanne Wood 181,694 (0.6%) 3 (0.5%) 3 / 650
Sinn Féin Gerry Adams 176,232 (0.6%) 4 (0.6%) 4 / 650
Ulster Unionist Party Mike Nesbitt 114,935 (0.4%) 2 (0.3%) 2 / 650
Social Dem & Lab Party Alas McDonnell 99,809 (0.3%) 3 (0.5%) 3 / 650
Others N/A 349,487 (1.1%) 1 (0.2%) 1 / 650
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 09:30:22 PM
An earlier UK election? What for,and even bigger Tory majority? Labour are at least two elections away from having even a faint chance
It would only trigger an early Assembly election, not a UK one. But it would be pointless. The same parties would be returned in similar proportions, mandatory coalition continues, together with reduced budget from London. It would be nothing more than grandstanding.
Obviously Farage will be pressing for PR Elections,but that wouldn't suit the local branch (made up of OO members Mc Narry and Reilly),as it would mean less seats for unionism here.
Quote from: Maguire01 on May 12, 2015, 10:48:03 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on May 12, 2015, 09:30:22 PM
An earlier UK election? What for,and even bigger Tory majority? Labour are at least two elections away from having even a faint chance
It would only trigger an early Assembly election, not a UK one. But it would be pointless. The same parties would be returned in similar proportions, mandatory coalition continues, together with reduced budget from London. It would be nothing more than grandstanding.
Chalk them down for it so.
Seriously amid all the grandstanding at election time,I think all politicians in N I (I know some are as thick as champ) do their best for all constituents now,certainly on an individual level.
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 04:56:14 PM
Should it be made compulsory to vote? It would be easy to police and if you don't vote then £1000 fine. People say they are not political what does such and such do for me? If people used their votes they would then be fit to hold the politicians to account. They could help dictate the direction the country in. Politics effects everything and I mean everything people need to understand this and this is why I think voting should be made mandatory.
So the future of the people should be determined by people who are not interested in the future of the people?
Quote from: Hardy on May 13, 2015, 10:36:50 AM
So the future of the people should be determined by people who are not interested in the future of the people?
Well they could be incentivised to care. An work colleague I had in Malta in the 90's held dual Maltese-Australian citizenship took his civic duties very seriously and voted religiously in both states every election. Both states supported him in this via heavily subsidized airfares to allow him to cast his vote in person.
Quote from: Hardy on May 13, 2015, 10:36:50 AM
Quote from: longballin on May 12, 2015, 04:56:14 PM
Should it be made compulsory to vote? It would be easy to police and if you don't vote then £1000 fine. People say they are not political what does such and such do for me? If people used their votes they would then be fit to hold the politicians to account. They could help dictate the direction the country in. Politics effects everything and I mean everything people need to understand this and this is why I think voting should be made mandatory.
So the future of the people should be determined by people who are not interested in the future of the people?
Democracy is a wonderful thing. Tory voters from Finchley have next to no interest in creating jobs in Strabane, the A5 road, waiting lists in Altnagelvin, orange parades, sectarian bonfires &c &c
Sometimes I wonder if people really know what they are talking about or are they just waffling on for the sake of it. If SF walk away from Stormont they would be hoping to trigger an assembly election as that's what they walked away from. They would be thinking that there is a possibility of gaining seats in the next assembly and gaining control of being in power as majority party. They would see the rise of UUP as a factor of the DUP loosing seats and potentially APNI and smaller unionist parties putting on a push too. SF would think that SDLP are a dwindling party and they can possibly capitalise on some of their seats possibly Upper Bann and places like this.
As for the tory cuts SF have been the only party to continually oppose them and to say that nothing has been near good enough with regards to protecting the most vulnerable in society. Certainly the middle class parties like DUP UUP SDLP and Alliance are not for the poorer classes in society, neither are the tory governments or their labour lib dem counterparts. The cuts to health, education, the roads and the rest are being implemented by Whitehall not Stormont.
On Tory cuts, what ever charges you can lay at SF's door you can not say they are implementing Tory cuts. The British Government give the NI executive an amount of money, they decide how much it is and the parties then have to distribute it as they see fit. To implement Tory cuts there needs to be some element of control of the purse strings. On welfare reform it is time SF and the SDLP wised up. The Brits control the purse strings and as Teresa Villiers has stated there is no way in God's earth that they will fund a benefits system in the North that is more generous than the one in England. I have said it before and I'll repeat it. In some parts of nationalist society in the North a benefits culture exists, its all about scamming what you can from the state, irrespective of need or your ability to actually work for a living. SF and the SDLP need to focus on changing this mentality and look to providing much needed better paying jobs. The public sector in the North provides about 70% of the cash in the economy...this is not healthy and if either party genuinely aspire to a United Ireland they will focus on this as a priority. Much as I detest the Tory's I grudgingly admit that no country can live beyond its means and fair play to the ROI for sorting out their economy if only our politicians had the same balls instead of acting like Big Issue Salesmen.
Sinn Fein lost FST on a number of issues. Of course the main reason was a successful Unionist pact that was helped to no end by the
leaflets distributed throughout the constituency attacking Tom Elliott, along with the one in North Belfast. I know of several people who were disgusted by it, and were put of. A friend summed it up best by saying why not have a leaflet showing us what they have done in the past 14 years, and stand on those merits.
Quite a few people in the Clonmore area didn't vote for SF either as just days before the election John O'Dowd launched an appeal against the court ruling that Clintyclay school should stay open and run as an integrated school. Michelle came out in support of this decision by O'Dowd, while all the local SF Councillors backed the court ruling. Plus, there are a lot of people in the Moy area not happy with the parties support for a shared school instead of a integrated school.
The child abuse cover ups, and the fact that Gerry Adams still stays in charge unchallenged after all the evidence produced showing how he covered up the abuse of his niece doesn't sit too well with many people. That was more of a factor than their support for limited abortion.
The ongoing expenses rip off by the party and the jobs for the boys mentality coupled with the big wages is another thing putting people off voting for them. Taking all the expenses going in Westminster, and not taking their seats is beginning to bite. Since they sit in Stormont and the Dail, there isn't much holding them back from taking their seats. Plus, Martin McGuinness is forever praising the Queen, and we will get another dose of his royal ass licking when Charlie arrives in a few days.
As for their opposition to the cuts, well that is all hot air and bluster. They have been enforcing cuts on behalf of the Tories for years now, and will do for the next term. They arn't going to risk losing millions if Stormont shuts down. The money is more important to them. So brace yourselves, the cuts are coming and they will spin a yarn that the faithful will buy and repeat. It's good for the Peace Process will likely be the main excuse once again.......
The next year or so will be a big test for the party. They are hell bent on getting into power in the 26, and they will do whatever it takes. We are secondary to that goal.
SF didn't get my vote in FST, and I for one do not feel guilty for seeing Tom Elliott take the seat. I voted on what candidates and their party stood for, and issues that are important to me. Everyone has the right to vote for whoever they choose, and they shouldn't have to feel guilty about that choice. We need to see an end to sectarian voting, not a rise in it.
Quote from: give her dixie on May 14, 2015, 12:34:00 PM
SF didn't get my vote in FST, and I for one do not feel guilty for seeing Tom Elliott take the seat. I voted on what candidates and their party stood for, and issues that are important to me. Everyone has the right to vote for whoever they choose, and they shouldn't have to feel guilty about that choice. We need to see an end to sectarian voting, not a rise in it.
And yet Tom Elliott's success is exactly that - how else can you explain a joint candidate agreed between parties that are diametrically opposed on many key issues?
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 14, 2015, 01:00:17 PM
Quote from: give her dixie on May 14, 2015, 12:34:00 PM
SF didn't get my vote in FST, and I for one do not feel guilty for seeing Tom Elliott take the seat. I voted on what candidates and their party stood for, and issues that are important to me. Everyone has the right to vote for whoever they choose, and they shouldn't have to feel guilty about that choice. We need to see an end to sectarian voting, not a rise in it.
And yet Tom Elliott's success is exactly that - how else can you explain a joint candidate agreed between parties that are diametrically opposed on many key issues?
I don't think he's suggesting otherwise.
Quote from: gallsman on May 14, 2015, 01:27:00 PM
I don't think he's suggesting otherwise.
Neither do I.
However the irony of not voting SF and then championing this as a move away from sectarian voting, and as a consequence of that, easing the path for a sectarian candidate, is not lost on me.
Quote from: Ulick on May 13, 2015, 12:21:20 PM
Quote from: Hardy on May 13, 2015, 10:36:50 AM
So the future of the people should be determined by people who are not interested in the future of the people?
Well they could be incentivised to care. An work colleague I had in Malta in the 90's held dual Maltese-Australian citizenship took his civic duties very seriously and voted religiously in both states every election. Both states supported him in this via heavily subsidized airfares to allow him to cast his vote in person.
The Shinner way.
Quote from: imtommygunn on May 12, 2015, 10:08:15 PM
If they walked away how would it force an earlier election?? It is hard to see how stormont can continue in current form. Tories would likely laugh at a 2 billion request now.
actually after reading the Irish news today on the spads and the fact that Stormont costs more to run than the Scotland or wales equivalent I think most right thinking tax payers would be happy enough to see Stormont closed down.
its jobs for the boys on both sides
Quote from: Rufus T Firefly on May 14, 2015, 02:14:25 PM
Quote from: gallsman on May 14, 2015, 01:27:00 PM
I don't think he's suggesting otherwise.
Neither do I.
However the irony of not voting SF and then championing this as a move away from sectarian voting, and as a consequence of that, easing the path for a sectarian candidate, is not lost on me.
But the alternative is engaging in the sectarian head count, so how could he champion a move away from sectarian vote but engage in a purely useums vs themums count? Explain to me how you'd move away from a sectarian headcount yourself there?
Quote from: trileacman on May 15, 2015, 12:35:59 PM
But the alternative is engaging in the sectarian head count, so how could he champion a move away from sectarian vote but engage in a purely useums vs themums count? Explain to me how you'd move away from a sectarian headcount yourself there?
100% on the money.
Your second question though suggests to me that you don't see the irony in what I pointed out.
Is this correct?