Without trying to look like T Fearon...
Has the National League gone past it's sell by date?
All I hear is teams treating matches, finals included, like a training session. Ah sure we'll see what happens, it'll be a good preparation for the championship, we'll be aiming for a decent performance... These sort of statements. Yes I know championship is more important but most teams are going into the NFL half-arsed. It's disrespectful to fans who pay good money to follow their team. This last few seasons, half-arsed talk, and I keep thinking, well why the feck am I going to these matches?!
Half a dozen teams capable of winning Sam, maybe less, and most won't get into a asses roar of Sam. Yet they take the league lightly, when they haven't won a trophy in 100 years. The recent winners celebrate like they just won a charity match.
Time to scrap it and incorporate league within the c'ship I think.
Yes but it gives fans of the smaller counties an opportunity to celebrate winning some silverware. For example, some Armagh posters have been giddy with excitement since Saturday night, do we really want to rob them of their only real potential chance of glory?
Scrap semi-finals and finals. Otherwise the leagues should stay unless there's some radical alternative. If not then you'd have some county teams playing two games in an entire year.
Make it a true league...11 teams in each of three divisions. No semifinals or finals. Team top after 10 games are champions. Continue with two relegated and two promoted...or maybe three?
No pre-season tournament. First league game in January, last one in late April.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on April 27, 2015, 08:11:23 AM
Make it a true league...11 teams in each of three divisions. No semifinals or finals. Team top after 10 games are champions. Continue with two relegated and two promoted...or maybe three?
No pre-season tournament. First league game in January, last one in late April.
I would agree with this, and was saying the exact same thing yesterday.
The semi finals and finals are a pointless exercise.
restructure the league to 3 divisions and the team that finishes top wins it.
This would also give more certainy to the fixtures schedule for every county.
I think the 4 divisions are fine as they are, no need to go to 3x11 in my opinion, however the finals, especially in divisions 2,3 and 4 are pointless exercises. Even the whole 'give weaker counties a day out in Croker' falls a bit flat when there's about 10k there.
The one thing I would say is that the Leagues seem to have become more important for teams from division 2 down. Division 1 teams tend to use it as a shot to nothing when they are safe from relegation, but teams in 2,3 and 4 take it a lot more seriously now than they ever did in the past 20 years or so.
Quote from: BennyCake on April 27, 2015, 12:32:54 AM
Without trying to look like T Fearon...
Has the National League gone past it's sell by date?
All I hear is teams treating matches, finals included, like a training session. Ah sure we'll see what happens, it'll be a good preparation for the championship, we'll be aiming for a decent performance... These sort of statements. Yes I know championship is more important but most teams are going into the NFL half-arsed. It's disrespectful to fans who pay good money to follow their team. This last few seasons, half-arsed talk, and I keep thinking, well why the feck am I going to these matches?!
Half a dozen teams capable of winning Sam, maybe less, and most won't get into a asses roar of Sam. Yet they take the league lightly, when they haven't won a trophy in 100 years. The recent winners celebrate like they just won a charity match.
Time to scrap it and incorporate league within the c'ship I think.
Will you be looking to scrap the championship if the Dubs keep winning that too?
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 27, 2015, 09:24:47 AM
I think the 4 divisions are fine as they are, no need to go to 3x11 in my opinion, however the finals, especially in divisions 2,3 and 4 are pointless exercises. Even the whole 'give weaker counties a day out in Croker' falls a bit flat when there's about 10k there.
The one thing I would say is that the Leagues seem to have become more important for teams from division 2 down. Division 1 teams tend to use it as a shot to nothing when they are safe from relegation, but teams in 2,3 and 4 take it a lot more seriously now than they ever did in the past 20 years or so.
The fewer number of teams will have too much grouping, in that four teams could be in relegation trouble going into the last round. Deciding relegation by score difference (which team beat the bottom team by the most) is not fair. Spread over a greater number of games, teams will find their true level. For example, no team should feature in The final one year and be relegated with a few games to go the following season. Not a true league. Expansion is the only way to go. And put Sigerson in November.
Think semifinals and finals could be scrapped. Would certainly not scrap the league format as they give us the most competitive of games with evenly matched teams graded accordingly. You could scrap the OByrne/McKenna/McGrath Cups and reduvce the no. of teams to 7 maybe and let teams play each other twice in top 3 divisons and have a 12 team division 4, teams play each other once. Start league in late january and let the table decide who wins after 12 games. Maybe not as radical as that but wouldnt be tinkering around with it too much. Same argument made every year when people see a half empty non competitive final in Croker. Thats only the one game though remember, rest of league is very competitive and real reward is getting to play in as high a grade as possible.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on April 27, 2015, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 27, 2015, 09:24:47 AM
I think the 4 divisions are fine as they are, no need to go to 3x11 in my opinion, however the finals, especially in divisions 2,3 and 4 are pointless exercises. Even the whole 'give weaker counties a day out in Croker' falls a bit flat when there's about 10k there.
The one thing I would say is that the Leagues seem to have become more important for teams from division 2 down. Division 1 teams tend to use it as a shot to nothing when they are safe from relegation, but teams in 2,3 and 4 take it a lot more seriously now than they ever did in the past 20 years or so.
The fewer number of teams will have too much grouping, in that four teams could be in relegation trouble going into the last round. Deciding relegation by score difference (which team beat the bottom team by the most) is not fair. Spread over a greater number of games, teams will find their true level. For example, no team should feature in The final one year and be relegated with a few games to go the following season. Not a true league. Expansion is the only way to go. And put Sigerson in November.
I disagree. I think the more teams in a division the less dead rubbers. In your scenario where 4 teams are in trouble going into the last round, sure that's brilliant drama and entertainment, not to mention great for intensity. I find the more teams in a division, the more games you have featuring teams with little or nothing to play for.
I think teams now take the league itself much more seriously than they used to and as a result it's really competitive and genuinely engaging.
I would agree however that there is no point to the semi-finals and finals and they actually have the effect of devaluing the entire structure.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 27, 2015, 10:36:19 AM
Quote from: Ball Hopper on April 27, 2015, 10:02:14 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 27, 2015, 09:24:47 AM
I think the 4 divisions are fine as they are, no need to go to 3x11 in my opinion, however the finals, especially in divisions 2,3 and 4 are pointless exercises. Even the whole 'give weaker counties a day out in Croker' falls a bit flat when there's about 10k there.
The one thing I would say is that the Leagues seem to have become more important for teams from division 2 down. Division 1 teams tend to use it as a shot to nothing when they are safe from relegation, but teams in 2,3 and 4 take it a lot more seriously now than they ever did in the past 20 years or so.
The fewer number of teams will have too much grouping, in that four teams could be in relegation trouble going into the last round. Deciding relegation by score difference (which team beat the bottom team by the most) is not fair. Spread over a greater number of games, teams will find their true level. For example, no team should feature in The final one year and be relegated with a few games to go the following season. Not a true league. Expansion is the only way to go. And put Sigerson in November.
I disagree. I think the more teams in a division the less dead rubbers. In your scenario where 4 teams are in trouble going into the last round, sure that's brilliant drama and entertainment, not to mention great for intensity. I find the more teams in a division, the more games you have featuring teams with little or nothing to play for.
But you end up with the bizarre senario in the last game or two that for some teams if they lose, they will be relegated, if they win they will be in a semi final.Surely there should be more separation than taht between the top & the bottom?
I take your point about possible dead rubber games, but at the minute we have finals/semi finals that are not much better
I don't think we should have semi finals at all.
This year's semis and finals were in the main a good case for scrapping those games.
However the Oul € argument comes into play here.
60,000 attendances probably grossed gate money of €750k.Add in programme sales, shops, bar and food....
A lot of dish not to sneezed at.
Grossed. But what was the Net I wonder? We've heard before that Croker needs a 30,000 crowd to break even, although I assume that means both decks open. there was hardly 30'000 there on Saturday was there?
Leagues should stay but format should change.
the reason you have teams going through the motions is because A. some are 3 weeks out from C/ship and being careful B. Some are 8 or 9 weeks out and perhaps are in heavy training. This underlines the farce that is the elongated C'ship season.
The change I would make is pay off NFL with no semi finals. Every team in Ireland should be involved in 1st round C/ship over the same weekend so you have less of this nonsense of teams preparing against different time scales.
Quote from: BennyHarp on April 27, 2015, 06:15:37 AM
Yes but it gives fans of the smaller counties an opportunity to celebrate winning some silverware. For example, some Armagh posters have been giddy with excitement since Saturday night, do we really want to rob them of their only real potential chance of glory?
So presumably you are not in favour of the McKenna Cup being scrapped then as it gives Tyrone their annual shot at provincial glory.
Quote from: Rossfan on April 27, 2015, 12:02:03 PM
This year's semis and finals were in the main a good case for scrapping those games.
However the Oul € argument comes into play here.
60,000 attendances probably grossed gate money of €750k.Add in programme sales, shops, bar and food....
A lot of dish not to sneezed at.
Maybe so, but if you improved the overall quality and competiveness of the league you could add a couple of thousand to every game in the league, every week.
This would offset alot of what you lose from the league finals.
Personally I would get rid of the mckenna cup etc and extend the league season slightly (3 divisions, 10 rounds of games) with the team finishing top winning the league and bottom 2 relegated/ top 2 romoted from divs 2 &3.
As i have mentioned before , i would also use this as a method of qualifying for a top 16 all ireland knockout competition, with the bottom 16 teams palying in the 'B' competition.(ie. all of div 1, top half of div 2 and the previous years B AI winners form the 'top 16)
Provincial championships to be played as a separate 'cup' competition. Also straight knockout.
That suggestion may be more drastic, but i think its far more workable for the league and championship than what we have now and gives all counties at what ever level a realistic goal to aim for.
for div 1 teams, the chance to win the league, and if not, retaining div 1 staus is important to ensure competing in the 'A' All ireland every year.
In div 2, getting promted to Div 1 guarantees playing in the 'A' comp for the next couple of years, for the teams in the middle, finishing in the top half qualifies them for that years 'A' comp.
for the bottom fo div 2, staying up is essential to give the chance of qualifying for the 'A' comp the followings season.
In div 3, getting promoted, will give the chance of qualifying for the main compettion teh following year.
For all teams in the B competion, they will have the goal of winning that to qualify for the following eyars top 16.
All counties will compete as normal for thier provincial championship
The arguement against thsiw ill be that no county wants to paly in the B allireland, which is fair enough, however, it gives every county a realistic pathway for progress, which i dont think we really have at the minute.
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 27, 2015, 12:07:10 PM
Grossed. But what was the Net I wonder? We've heard before that Croker needs a 30,000 crowd to break even, although I assume that means both decks open. there was hardly 30'000 there on Saturday was there?
I think that 30,000 figure was based on the total cost of Croker div by the number of times it was used.
With no debt I expect one AI final pays for the running costs??.
I doubt the GAA are relying on league semis and finals to be in profit each year
Quote from: Rossfan on April 27, 2015, 12:39:00 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on April 27, 2015, 12:07:10 PM
Grossed. But what was the Net I wonder? We've heard before that Croker needs a 30,000 crowd to break even, although I assume that means both decks open. there was hardly 30'000 there on Saturday was there?
I think that 30,000 figure was based on the total cost of Croker div by the number of times it was used.
With no debt I expect one AI final pays for the running costs??.
It breaks even with less than 5k now. Sure for Schools finals do they even open the Cusack stand, nevermind the upper tier? Running costs are pretty minimal at Croke Park now.
There was only 8000 odd at the games on sat night...
Semi finals in a group of eight is the first thing that should be scrapped. Last two division one finals were one sided which can happen. To make the division two,three,four finals more competitive how about having only the winner of each final promoted?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on April 27, 2015, 02:13:15 PM
To make the division two,three,four finals more competitive how about having only the winner of each final promoted?
The downside of that is that with only one team going down from a division, the later rounds of the league will have more dead rubbers
The League will always be of secondary importance unless it is somehow integrated into the Championship.
There are lots of ways to do that, all with pros and cons. But if you do it to any degree, teams will then take it very seriously.
Just to illustrate, imagine if every year the provincial draws were scrapped and the fixtures were based on League position. You would have seedings along the lines of Tennis, e.g top seeds would only meet at finals, top 4 only at semis etc.
While little would change for the likes of the current Kerry and Dublin teams, it could be very competitive for other counties.
i liked the old days whenever there were quarter finals and semi finals,
lets say
top two teams in each division go into an open draw fro quarter finals
then open draw for semi finals
gives the top in the fourth division a shout at playing a division 2/1 team
League format in 3 Divisions. Top team promoted. The championship system revamped to have senior, intermediate and junior same as the club system. 3 championships with the winner being promoted a la club championship. 2 relegated each year in the league. The winners of the League and the winners of the Championship are promoted. Retain the Provincials as stand along competitions.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 27, 2015, 04:03:49 PM
League format in 3 Divisions. Top team promoted. The championship system revamped to have senior, intermediate and junior same as the club system. 3 championships with the winner being promoted a la club championship. 2 relegated each year in the league. The winners of the League and the winners of the Championship are promoted. Retain the Provincials as stand along competitions.
BC would it be 3 divisions with 11 teams each, or a 16, 8, 9?
3x11 would mean some teams would have a bye in the first round.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on April 27, 2015, 04:37:59 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on April 27, 2015, 04:03:49 PM
League format in 3 Divisions. Top team promoted. The championship system revamped to have senior, intermediate and junior same as the club system. 3 championships with the winner being promoted a la club championship. 2 relegated each year in the league. The winners of the League and the winners of the Championship are promoted. Retain the Provincials as stand along competitions.
BC would it be 3 divisions with 11 teams each, or a 16, 8, 9?
3x11 would mean some teams would have a bye in the first round.
yes some teams would get a bye in the first round but if you use a system similar to the one that is used in monaghan then you are guaranteed a second back door game.
It works well at club level (senior, intermediate, junior).
All clubs have a realistic possibility of winning a cherished title. I don't see why it couldn't work at county level.