I'm a great admirer of how the Kerry Championship is structured. It means that every player in the county has a chance to play in the premier competition in the county and that no good junior/intermediate players are missed by the county management team. Around 2008 I did an analysis of the Tyrone and Kerry senior panels. 78% of the Tyrone panel were made up of players from the senior clubs while 52% of the Kerry Panel were from senior clubs. Of the 28 that togged out for Kerry in the all - ireland final in 2014 25% were from junior clubs. Last year Tyrone had 1 player from a junior club (Stephen O'Neill). I was wondering how it was in the rest of the counties?
Our starting keeper is a junior HB/HF.
Jason McLoughlin, highly rated corner back in Cavan is from junior club Shannon Gaels. Doubt they'll be junior for much longer though.
Who are they amalgamating with?
So far
Kerry 7 (from panel of 28)
Tyrone 1 (26)
Cavan 1
Roscommon 1
Derry 0
Down 1
My argument is that the straight senior/intermediate/junior club championships hinder the development of individual players from Junior clubs. It will be interesting to see how the rest of the counties fare in respect to Kerry. Kerry don't have a massive advantage in playing numbers over other counties but they have won about 20-25% of the All-Irelands. I believe that they utilise their resources better by the way that they have structured their county championship.
Stephen O'Neill is now retired obviously, but Cathal McShane from my own Club is in the McKenna Cup squad this spring so there's still 1 x player there or there abouts that plays junior. Kevin Gallagher is another Tyrone player that plays junior football. However I am not sure if he's in or out this year.
Tyrone have always had 2-4 players from Junior football on the Tyrone squad, O'Neill as mentioned, plus Packie McConnell, Ciaran Gourley, Declan McCrossan, Kevin Hughes among others who've featured for Tyrone while playing Junior ball.
I think Tyrone Clubs have a lot tighter spread in terms of ability which is reflected in our record in the All Ireland Juniors the last 10 years, hence why more Junior players from Tyrone might feature for the County.
Derry have 0 Junior players. There just aren't any good enough, not that they are being overlooked.
Paul McComiskey from my own club Dundrum in Down was a shining example of a junior club player on a senior county team.
We were Division 4 in 2005 when he top scored in the All Ireland MFC final.
He had played in All Ireland MFC, U-21, SFC and Sigerson finals by the age of 22.
Another Cavan addition to this list
Liam Buchannon, Ballymachugh
David Givney was a junior player too but he transferred up to Dublin club.
I did see a stat previously that a serious chunk of eligible lads in Kerry played with the Kerry Junior team at some stage.
Along with the divisional teams this would also help in developing young lads from small clubs where the coaching might not be at the very top level.
I think Cork have a similar set up with players coming through their junior team, donnacha o connor i think was one and miskella too i think.
When you think about it some of Kerry's greatest ever players past and present were junior club footballers. From South Kerry alone for example...Declan O'Sullivan, Jack O'Shea, Maurice Fitzgerald, John Egan, Mick O'Connell among many others. The system they have for championship works perfectly.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on December 31, 2014, 05:57:36 PM
Another Cavan addition to this list
Liam Buchannon, Ballymachugh
Is he on the senior panel this year? Don't think he was brought in last year after the U21s but I could be wrong.
Dublin =0
Brendan Donaghy... Armagh Junior club Clonmore
Eoin Donnelly. Fermanagh captain plays for Coa who will play in this year's Fermanagh junior championship
You've had the original question answered enough on the Kerry forum aswell as here anyway TC..
Just to add my 2 cents, the County League and the County Senior Championship in Kerry are not perfect by any means, but they are very good. The League gives every single club player 10/11 serious competitive games each year. There is currently a 3 up/3 down system in place which makes it even tougher. The Senior championship then (through the Divisional teams) allows every single club player in the county the opportunity to compete against the top players, so no matter what size of a club you're from, you'll get your day in Tralee or Killarney to shine if you're good enough.
Possibly explains why a good share of players from lower clubs make the grade down here. I remember telling a chap from Mayo that our entire half back line in 1997 was from Junior clubs (Breen, Flaherty, Moynihan) and he couldn't believe it. The County Junior team is also taken relatively seriously aswell most of the time and is seen as a stepping stone to Senior squad.
Quote from: ardtole on December 31, 2014, 07:34:49 PM
I think Cork have a similar set up with players coming through their junior team, donnacha o connor i think was one and miskella too i think.
O Connor is from a junior club who play in the duhallow divisional. Miskellas club just won the senior championship and to my memory he had only played senior championship football as they won the intermediate circa 1999
32 clubs play football in Offaly, of which 22 were either senior or Intermediate in 2014 and the same numbers will apply in 2015, as Rhode and Tullamore's second teams both retained their IFC status.
Of the ten clubs that are either Junior, Junior B of Junior C, Four of them (Birr, Lusmagh, Kinnitty and Drumcullen) would all make no bones about being clubs that put hurling first and who just field in football. Birr have actually had a few county panelists in recent years but none last year, even though Seán Ryan got called in early on but opted to play hurling only.
That leaves six others, and last year there would have been no county senior panelists from those clubs if I recall correctly. Philip Foy (Clonmore Harps) was county minor captain in 2011 and played under-21 last year, but I don't think he was added to the senior panel, or if he was, he certainly didn't feature on the field. Daingean won the JFC and would have featured one or two players who might have county senior football potential, but they didn't have anyone this year. And while you'll always have people arguing that there are hidden depths of talent out there in Junior clubs, nothing that I saw this year suggested that there are too many undiscovered gems playing Offaly JFC.
Would love the Kerry Divisional championship system to be adopted in Antrim but dont think it would be feasible in dual counties. The divisional system would give better inter/junior players something to aspire too and also help prevent poaching which is prevalent in Antrim anyway.
So far
Kerry 7 (from panel of 28)
Tyrone 1 (26)
Cavan 3
Roscommon 1
Derry 0
Down 1
Dublin 0
Armagh 1
Fermanagh 1
Cork 1
Still Kerry well ahead of the rest
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 03:01:25 PM
So far
Kerry 7 (from panel of 28)
Tyrone 1 (26)
Cavan 3
Roscommon 1
Derry 0
Down 1
Dublin 0
Armagh 1
Fermanagh 1
Cork 1
Still Kerry well ahead of the rest
Given none of them exclusively ply their trade at junior it's a bit of a disingenuous stat though.
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
That's my point. The system in Kerry allows clubs that would be inter or higher in other counties exist at junior. Not even saying that's a bad thing, just that TC is comparing apples with oranges by just listing the junior players on county team panels - they all play at the highest level of Kerry football.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on January 01, 2015, 01:58:18 PM
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on December 31, 2014, 05:57:36 PM
Another Cavan addition to this list
Liam Buchannon, Ballymachugh
Is he on the senior panel this year? Don't think he was brought in last year after the U21s but I could be wrong.
He was listed Number 24 on my programme for the Rossie qualifer game. He was a sub today against Down also.
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 09:39:08 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.
It's the whole reason. It's a huge reason why there are divisional teams. This is all good. If the op is saying the scouting of junior players is better in Kerry, I don't think that's true. Junior players in Kerry have a great chance If they are good enough because of the system.
Just on Dublin, ciaran Kilkenny was a junior wasn't he, until he transferred? He played for the Dubs as a junior club man though.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 04, 2015, 11:41:58 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 09:39:08 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.
It's the whole reason. It's a huge reason why there are divisional teams. This is all good. If the op is saying the scouting of junior players is better in Kerry, I don't think that's true. Junior players in Kerry have a great chance If they are good enough because of the system.
Just on Dublin, ciaran Kilkenny was a junior wasn't he, until he transferred? He played for the Dubs as a junior club man though.
Kilkenny leave Castleknock?
I thought he was moving on? I might be wrong.
I know not junior but thought interesting that Armagh team on Sunday had 9 players who played intermediate football in 2014 in their starting 15.
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 04, 2015, 11:51:30 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 04, 2015, 11:41:58 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 09:39:08 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.
It's the whole reason. It's a huge reason why there are divisional teams. This is all good. If the op is saying the scouting of junior players is better in Kerry, I don't think that's true. Junior players in Kerry have a great chance If they are good enough because of the system.
Just on Dublin, ciaran Kilkenny was a junior wasn't he, until he transferred? He played for the Dubs as a junior club man though.
Kilkenny leave Castleknock?
Castleknock aren't junior any more, in fact they'll be senior this year as they won the intermediate title.
Sligo has nothing to offer for this exercise, we only have 23 clubs, with my own being the lone exclusive junior club, and we have no county men.
None in Kildare that I know of, not since Two Mile House (AI junior champs 2013) went up. We only have 10 or so clubs whose first team is junior though and fairly confident we're not missing any particularly talented players.
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 09:39:08 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.
You hit the nail on the head BennyHarp - From a Tyrone perspective I think our current structure does not help us find our best players. If a player is not spotted at underage and put into a development squad then if he's in a junior club then he'll never be found. A perfect example is your own club Dungannon - you make senior this year and now have 2 men on the panel. You were playing junior 2 years ago - if you were still playing junior do you think they would have sniffed the panel. You could see the divisional sides as being development squads for adult players.
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 05, 2015, 09:04:32 AM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 09:39:08 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:59:50 PM
Quote from: BennyHarp on January 04, 2015, 08:52:31 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 04, 2015, 08:43:15 PM
not really - if their club wins the junior championship then they compete on the all ireland junior club championship. There is no way then can play in the all ireland senior club championship until their club becomes senior. Kerry have a senior club championship but they also have a county championship which involves all the clubs in the county.
Do better junior players not play in the senior championship? Eg. Did Declan O'Sullivan not play for Dromid in the Junior Champiobship and South Kerry in the senior?
Yes - they do but they cannot play in the all-ireland club championship (using your example Dromid would have to become a senior club and then win the senior/county championship) - as far as I know if a divisional side wins the county championship then the winners of the senior club championship qualify for the all ireland club competition.
Fair enough, but they get the opportunity to play senior football within the county which junior players in other counties do not. The fact that these players have performed at senior club level is most likely part of the reason why more of them have been picked by Kerry.
You hit the nail on the head BennyHarp - From a Tyrone perspective I think our current structure does not help us find our best players. If a player is not spotted at underage and put into a development squad then if he's in a junior club then he'll never be found. A perfect example is your own club Dungannon - you make senior this year and now have 2 men on the panel. You were playing junior 2 years ago - if you were still playing junior do you think they would have sniffed the panel. You could see the divisional sides as being development squads for adult players.
I agree TC, it's a better way to identify talent from the junior clubs as those who make the divisional are already being highlighted as having potential so the county selector need never attend a junior match in the county to see the better junior players in action. I'm not sure how long this system has been in place in Kerry, but I would find it difficult to imagine that a similar system could be implemented in Tyrone or any other county at this stage. I'm not sure too many in the Clarkes would happily play for a representative side in the senior championship as we would always have seen ourselves as a senior club anyway. The thought of joining with Killyman, Edendork and maybe Donaghmore to play against Omagh wouldn't necessarily sit well and would be exceptionally difficult to fit into an already crowded fixture list if the players would be competing in both senior and junior championships. I also think that the Provincial and AI Junior and Intermediate Championships have lifted the profile of the average club player in those leagues and the ability to stand out in these games gives the players the opportunity to show what they can do - though i'm a little surprised that McCreesh from the Rock hasn't got a call up as he appears to have been the stand out player in Junior football last year (this probably backs up the exact point you are making TC!). With regards to Big Padraig and Packie Quinn making it onto the panel this year, I suppose those two lads had alot to do with the Clarkes getting back to senior football and their role in that has been recognised with call ups to the county squad. So perhaps the influence of a few good players can, to some extent, dictate which division their club play in and reduce the chances of that club plying their trade at junior level. A team with those two lads were never going to be hanging around in Junior football for too long. Tyrone have had a number of junior players in their ranks over the years, I could be wrong here but did Aiden Skeleton, John Lynch and Sean McNally all play for junior clubs in 1986?
I absolutely agree that we need to look at how we are identifying players for development squads and what we are doing with them once they are there. I still cant work out how we are still looking for a 6ft plus midfielder, tight marking corner back and a strong target man full forward. We are producing identikit footballers who are all good, comfortable ball players who can keep possession and support the man on the ball - a team of this type isn't going to win us an all Ireland anytime soon. If a 6ft 2" lad at 14 years of age can't kick a ball straight he should be on these squads and coached until he can.
There's no obligation for a senior club to play with their divisional side. Laune Rangers don't play with Mid Kerry, Crokes don't play with East Kerry etc. So if your club reaches the standard of being a senior club, you don't have to join up. Bally-Foilmore played on their own after they won intermediate, and actually lost to South Kerry a couple of times in the Championship.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 05, 2015, 01:02:42 PM
There's no obligation for a senior club to play with their divisional side. Laune Rangers don't play with Mid Kerry, Crokes don't play with East Kerry etc. So if your club reaches the standard of being a senior club, you don't have to join up. Bally-Foilmore played on their own after they won intermediate, and actually lost to South Kerry a couple of times in the Championship.
Was the original idea to have North, South, East and West Kerry playing each other in the senior championship? I haven't ever given it much thought but I was always of the impression that the divisional sides were set up to make a more competitive senior championship and the larger clubs were never included in the divisional sides.
No, as far as I'm aware, the championship always had the 'big' clubs. Stacks, Crokes, Rahillys etc. The 1920s seem to be the first time divisional sides seem to be mentioned in finals etc. 'Listowel selection' and 'North Kerry'in the 1920s.
Some of the divisional sides have a real sense of identity I find, as opposed to being a vehicle for people to play senior football. South Kerry, probably because of the Iverageh peninsula, is certainly a division that does seem to be rooted in the place, as opposed to the 'concept'.
But each of those big clubs can, if they wish, join their division. It's unlikely to happen of course, but teams like Glenflesk have dipped in and out of their divisional sides.
You have to sell it as a positive to the junior and intermediate clubs. As a junior or intermediate club (at least in Tyrone) you have 2 chances to gain promotion either through the league or the championship. You can then split the season into 2 distinct parts. March-April-May-June you would play half your league games and complete the junior/intermediate and senior club championships. The winner of the senior club championship gets immunity from relegation and if a divisional side wins the county championship then they will represent the county in the all-ireland club championship. July-Aug-Sept you complete the league and the county championship. It means that you get serious football being played through the whole summer plus players will be less inclined to head for the states if they know they will be playing championship football in august. As far as clubs not liking it you need to put it in place for 5 years and then see how it has worked out. The benefit of seeing some of your teammates in the county final (e.g. North Tyrone or a Loughshore amalgamation) would be beneficial to the clubs. The only real losers would be the senior clubs who would find it harder to win the county championship
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 04, 2015, 11:52:19 PM
I thought he was moving on? I might be wrong.
Ciaran Kilkenny still with Castleknock, but they've been steadily moving up.
16 team divisions, they won Division 5 in 2011, won Div 4 in 2012, promoted from Div 3 in 2013 and lost in the Div 2 promotion playoffs in 2014.
They won the Dublin junior championship in 2012 and the intermediate championship in 2014, so will be part of the 32 team senior championship next year.
Fingallians got relegated to Div 3 last year, so I think that makes Paul Flynn the player who's club is at the lowest level of those who play regularly for the Dubs (though Costello is also at a Div 3 team)
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 05, 2015, 02:32:52 PM
You have to sell it as a positive to the junior and intermediate clubs. As a junior or intermediate club (at least in Tyrone) you have 2 chances to gain promotion either through the league or the championship. You can then split the season into 2 distinct parts. March-April-May-June you would play half your league games and complete the junior/intermediate and senior club championships. The winner of the senior club championship gets immunity from relegation and if a divisional side wins the county championship then they will represent the county in the all-ireland club championship. July-Aug-Sept you complete the league and the county championship. It means that you get serious football being played through the whole summer plus players will be less inclined to head for the states if they know they will be playing championship football in august. As far as clubs not liking it you need to put it in place for 5 years and then see how it has worked out. The benefit of seeing some of your teammates in the county final (e.g. North Tyrone or a Loughshore amalgamation) would be beneficial to the clubs. The only real losers would be the senior clubs who would find it harder to win the county championship
If, and to be fair it is a big if, the clubs can come together and gain some sort of identity, then it can only be a positive. The issues arise where the links are tenuous at best, and there's no common purpose. In those scenarios preparation, selection and application all suffer, and it becomes a team weaker than it's parts.
St. Kieran's (I think) had this issue a few years ago. They represent Castleisland, Currow and a few others. Castleisland had a game in that celebrity bainisteoir thing, and their club (and players) prioritised that over a county championship match against South Kerry or Crokes. (Can't remember which). I know I was at it, and several Castleisland lads were missing.
In the vast majority of cases in Kerry, the divisional sides are seen as something you want to get onto, and are supported by the constituent clubs. I get the sense for other counties that it would be an alien concept, and would take a bit of selling. You'd have to be very careful how you mark the divisions out.
Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 05, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.
That's interesting DownFanatic - was the ability to enter a team into the senior championship closed by the county board or can it still be done
Monaghan have recalled Paddy Kierans (Sean McDermotts) to the panel, they've been relegated to Junior football for this year
AZ..just change your username to "AZKerry" and be done with it! ;)
Know them. Know them well. Then beat them!
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 05, 2015, 04:53:58 PM
Know them. Know them well. Then beat them!
;D Not since 82 lad..not for a while yet either..I hope!
Incidentally, the Kerry team this Sunday in the McGrath cup will be almost an entire Junior team given the lads are still sunning themselves in South Africa.
Did I hear Niall O'Shea is back from Oz btw?
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 05, 2015, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 05, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.
That's interesting DownFanatic - was the ability to enter a team into the senior championship closed by the county board or can it still be done
I think at the time Ardglass and Kilclief were Intermediate and Saul were junior.
Don't think the county board stopped it - just think the interest wasn't really there from any other clubs.
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 05, 2015, 08:04:41 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 05, 2015, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 05, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.
That's interesting DownFanatic - was the ability to enter a team into the senior championship closed by the county board or can it still be done
I think at the time Ardglass and Kilclief were Intermediate and Saul were junior.
Don't think the county board stopped it - just think the interest wasn't really there from any other clubs.
Regarding ASK Lecale in 2011, the 3 clubs amalgamated, for a once off preliminary SFC match v Longstone. The county board supported it, the reason it did not continue was simply that Kilclief won the IFC that year, and therefore were in the 2012 SFC in their own right.
It was an interesting experiment, with the team proving very competitive against a strong Longstone side, probably the lack of competitive football as a unit gave them little time to gel.
The 3 clubs bought into it, and the players really enjoyed the experience.
Those involved in setting it up, were determined to bring the best of all 3 clubs to the table, and were prepared to put club rivalry to the side for the benefit of the players.
In summary:
Positives: club cooperation/mutual respect, county board support, good managers/coaches , shop window for potential county players, giving supporters the opportunity to follow SFC team, potentially improves standard of SFC, widens pool of county player selection , invigorates county championships, club identity maintained by individual teams also in IFC JFC .
Negatives: fixture congestion, additional cost, limited preparation time, shortsighted negativity/cynicism by some.
I would argue that predicted demographic change indicates that rural clubs will have increasing difficulty with numbers. Divisional sides give their stronger players opportunity to play SFC without being poached by other clubs. The Kerry experience indicates that all counties should explore this as a means of widening their county player pool. If the most successful county in Ireland has loads of junior players in their county team, perhaps other counties are missing out.
With the exception of Paul McComiskey (whose minor and Queens successes showcased his talent) , to my knowledge no other Lower division player has established himself as a senior Down player in the last 20 years. In the same period , I would imagine at least 20 lower division Kerry players have won Allireland medals!
I am not suggesting there are 20 county players currently in lower divisions in Down , however, I think that we must at least explore if adopting some of Kerry's structures can help us widen our county player pool in the next 20 years.
Quote from: 6th sam on January 07, 2015, 09:55:48 AM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 05, 2015, 08:04:41 PM
Quote from: tc_manchester on January 05, 2015, 04:26:37 PM
Quote from: DownFanatic on January 05, 2015, 04:14:07 PM
Ardglass-Saul-Kilclief entered the Down SFC a few years back as ASK Lecale. They were beaten by Longstone. It was a one off which was never repeated.
That's interesting DownFanatic - was the ability to enter a team into the senior championship closed by the county board or can it still be done
I think at the time Ardglass and Kilclief were Intermediate and Saul were junior.
Don't think the county board stopped it - just think the interest wasn't really there from any other clubs.
Regarding ASK Lecale in 2011, the 3 clubs amalgamated, for a once off preliminary SFC match v Longstone. The county board supported it, the reason it did not continue was simply that Kilclief won the IFC that year, and therefore were in the 2012 SFC in their own right.
It was an interesting experiment, with the team proving very competitive against a strong Longstone side, probably the lack of competitive football as a unit gave them little time to gel.
The 3 clubs bought into it, and the players really enjoyed the experience.
Those involved in setting it up, were determined to bring the best of all 3 clubs to the table, and were prepared to put club rivalry to the side for the benefit of the players.
In summary:
Positives: club cooperation/mutual respect, county board support, good managers/coaches , shop window for potential county players, giving supporters the opportunity to follow SFC team, potentially improves standard of SFC, widens pool of county player selection , invigorates county championships, club identity maintained by individual teams also in IFC JFC .
Negatives: fixture congestion, additional cost, limited preparation time, shortsighted negativity/cynicism by some.
I would argue that predicted demographic change indicates that rural clubs will have increasing difficulty with numbers. Divisional sides give their stronger players opportunity to play SFC without being poached by other clubs. The Kerry experience indicates that all counties should explore this as a means of widening their county player pool. If the most successful county in Ireland has loads of junior players in their county team, perhaps other counties are missing out.
With the exception of Paul McComiskey (whose minor and Queens successes showcased his talent) , to my knowledge no other Lower division player has established himself as a senior Down player in the last 20 years. In the same period , I would imagine at least 20 lower division Kerry players have won Allireland medals!
I am not suggesting there are 20 county players currently in lower divisions in Down , however, I think that we must at least explore if adopting some of Kerry's structures can help us widen our county player pool in the next 20 years.
I think the key point is not that there are oodles of county players languishing in bad teams at junior level etc. The point is that by providing these divisional sides you have a vehicle for those players to *get better*. If you are a good player on a junior club, you will probably stay at that level forever, skills wise. However, if you have an opportunity to be exposed to better players, both with and against, and better standard of football, you will improve. That's how these sides are contributing to the Kerry scene. Not that they are exposing complete players, but that they are allowing diamonds in the rough to become more polished.
It also has the added benefit of raising the standard of opposition for the bigger clubs as well, so the players at those clubs are also tested at a higher level than they would be in most counties where there's always a fair few teams that are just about senior.
Kildare have only one at the moment - Colin O'Shea (Milltown)
Two Mile House were promoted last year and went on to win the Junior football All Ireland. Peter Kelly would have been a junior player when he won his All Star in 2010.
Quote from: 5 Sams on December 31, 2014, 09:24:24 PM
When you think about it some of Kerry's greatest ever players past and present were junior club footballers. From South Kerry alone for example...Declan O'Sullivan, Jack O'Shea, Maurice Fitzgerald, John Egan, Mick O'Connell among many others. The system they have for championship works perfectly.
Anyone else read Paddy Heaney today in the Irish News. Maybe someone with an account can put up the article. A pretty good read about why Kerry win the AI so often and he mentioned the lads above and the system in Kerry.
Quote from: Norf Tyrone on December 31, 2014, 01:15:06 PM
Stephen O'Neill is now retired obviously, but Cathal McShane from my own Club is in the McKenna Cup squad this spring so there's still 1 x player there or there abouts that plays junior. Kevin Gallagher is another Tyrone player that plays junior football. However I am not sure if he's in or out this year.
Tyrone have always had 2-4 players from Junior football on the Tyrone squad, O'Neill as mentioned, plus Packie McConnell, Ciaran Gourley, Declan McCrossan, Kevin Hughes among others who've featured for Tyrone while playing Junior ball.
I think Tyrone Clubs have a lot tighter spread in terms of ability which is reflected in our record in the All Ireland Juniors the last 10 years, hence why more Junior players from Tyrone might feature for the County.
Add Dooher to that list too from recent times.