It seems that the 6 counties might get some sort of deal on the Corporation tax provided that they do a deal otherwise and reorganise the finances.
I'm not sure of the details of this, but it will require some maturity from the folks on the hill and that would be very welcome.
If it works, it makes the 6 counties more like the rest of the country and so helps remove the economic basket case issue from the border debate.
If it doesn't work because of limitations set by London etc it illustrates the limitations of the present constitutional setup.
If you were London would you trust them to manage anything? Don't know about this, could lead to more jobs but also a lot more pain for people hit by further cuts to compensate. The pressure would be on Invest to get more FDI.
Big risk to trust those Muppets on the hill to manage something as transformational as this. Cue a 24 month delay while the DUP and SF argue about what fleg is on the letterhead for the remittance advice!
I hope it works, this is the only way I can see NI getting to a more balanced economy in terms of public/private sector. We need to attract more FDI to replace the inevitable job losses in the public sector and this could be a game changer. It will not be easy or quick but it has to happen to compete with ROI.
Firstly it will be hard to see an agreement reached for this actually to happen.
In an ideal world Stormont could set its own corporation tax rate. A major problem though is that a lower corporation tax rate would probably mean a lower block grant as London will not suffer the loss to the overall tax take for the country. We are then basically gambling that businesses will choose to come to Northern Ireland for the lower tax and that this will result in an increase in the overall tax take. We also have to hope that we have the right people negotiating our part of the deal with London. Undoubtedly something has to be done to help the economy but does anyone really think we have the people in charge to deliver.
Quote from: Throw ball on December 03, 2014, 06:58:37 PM
Firstly it will be hard to see an agreement reached for this actually to happen.
In an ideal world Stormont could set its own corporation tax rate. A major problem though is that a lower corporation tax rate would probably mean a lower block grant as London will not suffer the loss to the overall tax take for the country. We are then basically gambling that businesses will choose to come to Northern Ireland for the lower tax and that this will result in an increase in the overall tax take. We also have to hope that we have the right people negotiating our part of the deal with London. Undoubtedly something has to be done to help the economy but does anyone really think we have the people in charge to deliver.
I don't know the detail on this but I think EU law prohibits a "free lunch" in terms of increasing tax take.but retaining the same amount of central funds I.e. the block grant. Could be wrong on whether it is actually prohibited but in any case I would be certain the Treasury would insist on the loss of tax revenue being "paid for" by NI from the block grant.
Quote from: TabClear on December 03, 2014, 07:04:04 PM
Quote from: Throw ball on December 03, 2014, 06:58:37 PM
Firstly it will be hard to see an agreement reached for this actually to happen.
In an ideal world Stormont could set its own corporation tax rate. A major problem though is that a lower corporation tax rate would probably mean a lower block grant as London will not suffer the loss to the overall tax take for the country. We are then basically gambling that businesses will choose to come to Northern Ireland for the lower tax and that this will result in an increase in the overall tax take. We also have to hope that we have the right people negotiating our part of the deal with London. Undoubtedly something has to be done to help the economy but does anyone really think we have the people in charge to deliver.
I don't know the detail on this but I think EU law prohibits a "free lunch" in terms of increasing tax take.but retaining the same amount of central funds I.e. the block grant. Could be wrong on whether it is actually prohibited but in any case I would be certain the Treasury would insist on the loss of tax revenue being "paid for" by NI from the block grant.
I'm sure the EU could agree to something to facilitate progressing the peace, e.g. structural funds.
It might be easier for then to agree on something like this, rather than the eternal who are the bigger bastards row.
so interesting point ref EU law, but not really a big issue. The total corp tax in NI (revenue) is 200M. and they get that back as part of the block grant. By deciding their own tax level they give up the 200M refund, but get to keep what they make in return.
That trade is really not a fair trade, the additional boost of attracting business to the economy by having a lower corp tax rate (but within not only the EU but also the UK) make it virtually a no brainer
Quote from: heganboy on December 03, 2014, 07:36:27 PM
so interesting point ref EU law, but not really a big issue. The total corp tax in NI (revenue) is 200M. and they get that back as part of the block grant. By deciding their own tax level they give up the 200M refund, but get to keep what they make in return.
That trade is really not a fair trade, the additional boost of attracting business to the economy by having a lower corp tax rate (but within not only the EU but also the UK) make it virtually a no brainer
Agree that it should be a no brainer long term. What may be an issue is the transition period when fundsare so tight. I'm sure there are options available to address any cashflow issues short term.
Invest ni will be in the spotlight but the reality is that the people who are likely to c**k this up are.the politicians...And it won't be for economic reasons.
Am I right in thinking there is a clause that if companies currently based in Britain move their operations to the North due to the lower Corp tax rate then we would be compensating the treasury for their lost business?
Really can't see the clowns in Stormont making this work anyway.
The calculation of benefit is complex.in the South the government gives a low tax rate to attract companies who employ people. This employment leads in turn to direct and indirect taxes and more spending. If the taxes increase in NI, how is that reflected in the calculations?
Quote from: armaghniac on December 03, 2014, 08:32:24 PM
The calculation of benefit is complex.in the South the government gives a low tax rate to attract companies who employ people. This employment leads in turn to direct and indirect taxes and more spending. If the taxes increase in NI, how is that reflected in the calculations?
I am sure the whole ins and outs of this have not been agreed either. If more business comes to the north because of the lower tax rate and more jobs are created there should be lower benefits payable and a greater income tax and NIC take as well. I assume this goes to the exchequer and not Stormont. But. What happens if other areas see this working in the north and want the same power in their area. Wales, Scotland, the North East etc. will all want to set there own corporation tax rates. The result could then be that the North has lost the block grant but has not gained the extra business expected because they have decided to go to other regions. Despite EU protestations there is also the possibility that central government will decide to reduce corporation tax everywhere as the simple way to end tax avoidance strategies.
There is much to consider with no definite answer.
It not work, one, the politicans up here are incapable of running anything, we seen this at first hand, if they Had to work in a proper job half them be out the door,
Two, why would any company decide to move to the north or new company locate here, when they have the same tax down south minus the shit what happens in Belfast and Belfast who probably be the only place new companies would set up.
Any outside company would still choose down south first, the outside world do see the 12th carry on on TV every year
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 04, 2014, 01:58:29 AM
It not work, one, the politicans up here are incapable of running anything, we seen this at first hand, if they Had to work in a proper job half them be out the door,
Two, why would any company decide to move to the north or new company locate here, when they have the same tax down south minus the shit what happens in Belfast and Belfast who probably be the only place new companies would set up.
Any outside company would still choose down south first, the outside world do see the 12th carry on on TV every year
Dont agree with this at all. If that held true, why would any company set up in NI at the minute??
Dont underestimate the attraction of trading in Sterling to a lot of US/Far East companies, both from a prestige perspective and a forex viewpoint. Depending on exchange rate movement/group structures etc could be a real consideration. If your key customer base is UK, why not report in the same currency if it is not to your detriment? Your primary bank is uk based?
Also, company law is different between UK/Ireland?
Prostituting yourself at the altar of inward investment is a dangerous road to go down unless a well thought out plan is in place. With little domestic industry at present inward investment from multi nationals must be courted in the short to medium term so some kind of economy exists but there must be a plan to wean off the tit and stand on your own feet, relatively at some stage. I'm not saying foreign MNC's can ever be abandoned, they cannot but perhaps a few domestic ones can and should be developed with the right environment and re-investment.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 04, 2014, 01:58:29 AM
It not work, one, the politicans up here are incapable of running anything, we seen this at first hand, if they Had to work in a proper job half them be out the door,
Two, why would any company decide to move to the north or new company locate here, when they have the same tax down south minus the shit what happens in Belfast and Belfast who probably be the only place new companies would set up.
Any outside company would still choose down south first, the outside world do see the 12th carry on on TV every year
There's not really that much shit that goes on in Belfast though. I know papers like the Irish news talk up a lot of things but ultimately they're background and all you have in belfast is a 2 week shutdown in July. The morons in the papers all the time have little to no impact on day to day lives.
However as per what the allstate guy said would you really trust these guys to implement anything complex when they can't even agree on basic budget things and that's before you even get near "flegs" and marching. We don't have an "executive" who should be trusted with anything at present.
Quote from: TabClear on December 04, 2014, 06:48:23 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 04, 2014, 01:58:29 AM
It not work, one, the politicans up here are incapable of running anything, we seen this at first hand, if they Had to work in a proper job half them be out the door,
Two, why would any company decide to move to the north or new company locate here, when they have the same tax down south minus the shit what happens in Belfast and Belfast who probably be the only place new companies would set up.
Any outside company would still choose down south first, the outside world do see the 12th carry on on TV every year
Dont agree with this at all. If that held true, why would any company set up in NI at the minute??
Dont underestimate the attraction of trading in Sterling to a lot of US/Far East companies, both from a prestige perspective and a forex viewpoint. Depending on exchange rate movement/group structures etc could be a real consideration. If your key customer base is UK, why not report in the same currency if it is not to your detriment? Your primary bank is uk based?
Also, company law is different between UK/Ireland?
Corporate banking doesn't work like that and I'm assuming it's big corporations they are hoping to attract.
Bro McFerron was on the money about it, and Arlene Foster looked ridiculous in her snappy response about it.
Corporation tax alone isn't enough.
Allstate have loads of unfilled jobs. Cut corporation tax to 0%, it still wont fill those jobs.
The problem isn't that there is no Jobs, it is that people don't have the skills to fill the jobs available.
Ireland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
Hard to see the "fleggers" and the like working in a Call Centre :D
Is this the first step in England's disengagement from the UK?
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
I've a couple of points I picked up from a presentation this morning by Neil Gibson from Oxford Economics/UU.
1. The legislation is drafted and ready to go
2. If the decision was based on the impact to the UK treasury alone, it wouldn't be contemplated
3. The legislation would only impact corporation tax - any revenues from income taxes, VAT and other indirect taxes as a result of the devolution of corp tax would still flow to the UK purse
4. Compromises are required from public sector, but cuts in public sector are coming whether there is corp tax devolution or not
5. Possible requirement from the business community to surrender something - R&D reliefs, INI grants, low business rates, low wages
6. The ultimate decision at this point, however, will likely lie in whether the Conservatives need the support of Unionists to remain in coalition
Quote from: bailestil on December 04, 2014, 10:53:21 AM
Bro McFerron was on the money about it, and Arlene Foster looked ridiculous in her snappy response about it.
Corporation tax alone isn't enough.
Allstate have loads of unfilled jobs. Cut corporation tax to 0%, it still wont fill those jobs.
The problem isn't that there is no Jobs, it is that people don't have the skills to fill the jobs available.
Ireland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
to be fair there are numerous jobs in th e north all in the it sector
the issue is that the education system( controlled by unions) still forces kids to do 5 yeaRS religion, history, French etc whilst not pushing 5 years IT
jeez I have a kid doing citizenship what the feck is all that about
don't think stormont will want the cut in the public sector either as it forces them to be real politicians
they would rather fight over flegs etc
Quote from: bailestil on December 04, 2014, 10:53:21 AM
Bro McFerron was on the money about it, and Arlene Foster looked ridiculous in her snappy response about it.
Corporation tax alone isn't enough.
Allstate have loads of unfilled jobs. Cut corporation tax to 0%, it still wont fill those jobs.
The problem isn't that there is no Jobs, it is that people don't have the skills to fill the jobs available.
Ireland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
Yeah, this is going to be the big issue.
The other side of it is a cutural thing, where many still view financial services and Law as 'better' careers that software, IT or engineering and so thats where the most gifted young people are pushed towards.
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Ah the old best GCSE and A-Levels argument trotted out.
The problem isnt the top 10%, its the rest.
Its the fact that Ireland has TCD, UCD, DIT, DCU, NUI, RCI, UL, CIT, SIT LKIT and more i've missed.
N.Ireland Has Queen's and the University of Belfast aka UU.
If N.I produces 50 computer science graduates a year, that isn't gonna make a dent in the number of IT companies looking to open here.
No Point pumping out History graduates and saying there are no jobs for them.
QuoteQueens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
There's no doubting the quality of graduates coming out of Queens and UU, but it's the quantities required to fill the potential roles from multi-national corporations. Look at Intel as one example, how many thousand do they employ in Leixlip now? Never mind, Apple, Google, Facebook etc. I suppose it only takes one large multinational corporation to come into the north with a few thousand jobs to get the place going.
A rebalancing is required between the public and private sectors, and that is going to happen over the next number of years whether we like it or not via cuts to the public sector. However, there has to be jobs for those people to go to in the private sector or NI might as well turn the lights out.
Quote from: bailestil on December 04, 2014, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Ah the old best GCSE and A-Levels argument trotted out.
The problem isnt the top 10%, its the rest.
Its the fact that Ireland has TCD, UCD, DIT, DCU, NUI, RCI, UL, CIT, SIT LKIT and more i've missed.
N.Ireland Has Queen's and the University of Belfast aka UU.
If N.I produces 50 computer science graduates a year, that isn't gonna make a dent in the number of IT companies looking to open here.
No Point pumping out History graduates and saying there are no jobs for them.
NI produces a lot more than 50 computer science graduates a year. Page 5 in the file below shows the Computing Science course at Jordanstown produced 58 graduates on its own in 201314 (those are successful leavers - not sure what classification they'd be coming out with). There are similar courses at Coleraine, Magee and Queens. And that's before you get into any other computing related courses like software engineering and major/minor combinations.
http://www.ulster.ac.uk/quality/qmau/uuonly/progcms3.pdf
There's also a course at Coleraine with 30 odd fully (DEL) funded MSc places - it's a conversion course for non Computing graduates (with similar at Queens I believe). The fact that it exists and is funded by DEL backs up your point about pumping out history (and other) graduates - there's jobs in IT in NI with nobody to fill them and graduates from other disciplines are being funded to retrain. There seems to be a big push towards STEM related subjects too - maybe that will help address that as well.
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Which rankings are these? It's well below Trinity and behind UCD in any rankings I see. UCD's graduate business school is one of the best in the world.
These myths have been perpetuated for years about Queens. It's well down the UK rankings and certainly their engineering/IT departments are not as renowned as other mainland UK universities.
I'm not trying to denigrate people who study/studied there but I think we need a bit of perspective.
If anyone believes those tubes up on the hill could manage the implementation of something like this then they are living in cuckoo cuckoo land. I think NI politicians have latched onto this idea of devolved corporation tax and think it's the magic bullet to all woes. It isn't and on it's own it's not going to have multi-national's knocking down the door to set-up in NI.
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
University rankings are a bit dubious at the best of times, but on the QS World University Rankings QUB is between UCD and UCC.
I think Queens is good enough, but UU is below the 26 county institutions and the NI government is consciously cutting funding so that there are not enough places for NI students, whereas the Republic is trying to expand things, even in economic hard times.
QuoteIf anyone believes those tubes up on the hill could manage the implementation of something like this then they are living in cuckoo cuckoo land. I think NI politicians have latched onto this idea of devolved corporation tax and think it's the magic bullet to all woes. It isn't and on it's own it's not going to have multi-national's knocking down the door to set-up in NI.
They asked for it, they have to either make it work or show themselves to be plonkers and that change is needed. Either might be helpful.
Quoteare not as renowned as other mainland UK universities.
What part of mainland Europe are your referring to?
I think it will be a disaster. The public sector has been shrinking since 2007 and that shrinkage is picking up pace now and if this is devolved too many people will lose their jobs within a short space of time.
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 01:11:22 PM
Quoteare not as renowned as other mainland UK universities.
What part of mainland Europe are your referring to?
The mainland which subsidies the 6 counties
QuoteThe mainland which subsidies the 6 counties
Ok, and not the part that has subsidized the 26 recently.
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
QuoteThe mainland which subsidies the 6 counties
Ok, and not the part that has subsidized the 26 recently.
No, there was no subsidy. There was a loan. Loans are repaid.
Quote from: Tubberman on December 04, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
QuoteThe mainland which subsidies the 6 counties
Ok, and not the part that has subsidized the 26 recently.
No, there was no subsidy. There was a loan. Loans are repaid.
;)
Quote from: Tubberman on December 04, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
No, there was no subsidy. There was a loan. Loans are repaid.
Unless you are Sean Quinn, Sean Dunne etc, in which case you do not repay your loans.
Quote from: bailestil on December 04, 2014, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Ah the old best GCSE and A-Levels argument trotted out.
The problem isnt the top 10%, its the rest.
Its the fact that Ireland has TCD, UCD, DIT, DCU, NUI, RCI, UL, CIT, SIT LKIT and more i've missed.
N.Ireland Has Queen's and the University of Belfast aka UU.
If N.I produces 50 computer science graduates a year, that isn't gonna make a dent in the number of IT companies looking to open here.
No Point pumping out History graduates and saying there are no jobs for them.
yep there are/were IT jobs in the north and there wasn't enough qualified people to take them.
my missus worked for a company that opened up a Belfast office.
was always trying to recruit IT staff at all levels. couldn't get them.
had to import many from EU, india etc
a lot of the investNI based start up industries were heavily heavily subsidised
a lot of the graduates will head south as the money is way better!
this corporation tax project will be interesting though!
Another problem is, these IT jobs are being located in Belfast. Look at another topic on here about the M2.
If you are from the NorthWest and don't want to spend 3-4 hours a day in a car you will hardly apply for a job in Belfast.
It would be interesting if Omagh/Derry/Cookstown/Magherafelt could get some of smaller IT business to set up there.
Quote from: Tubberman on December 04, 2014, 03:22:11 PM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 03:13:27 PM
QuoteThe mainland which subsidies the 6 counties
Ok, and not the part that has subsidized the 26 recently.
No, there was no subsidy. There was a loan. Loans are repaid.
At a very high rate.
We are now asked them to pay them off early with re-financed lower rate loans.
At least we pay them off. The US owes €17 trillion and will never pay a cent.
Quote from: thebigfella on December 04, 2014, 10:39:05 AM
Quote from: TabClear on December 04, 2014, 06:48:23 AM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on December 04, 2014, 01:58:29 AM
It not work, one, the politicans up here are incapable of running anything, we seen this at first hand, if they Had to work in a proper job half them be out the door,
Two, why would any company decide to move to the north or new company locate here, when they have the same tax down south minus the shit what happens in Belfast and Belfast who probably be the only place new companies would set up.
Any outside company would still choose down south first, the outside world do see the 12th carry on on TV every year
Dont agree with this at all. If that held true, why would any company set up in NI at the minute??
Dont underestimate the attraction of trading in Sterling to a lot of US/Far East companies, both from a prestige perspective and a forex viewpoint. Depending on exchange rate movement/group structures etc could be a real consideration. If your key customer base is UK, why not report in the same currency if it is not to your detriment? Your primary bank is uk based?
Also, company law is different between UK/Ireland?
Corporate banking doesn't work like that and I'm assuming it's big corporations they are hoping to attract.
Bigfella, in what sense does corporate banking not work like that? In terms of considering forex as a factor that impacts on your business or the location of your primary banking relationship being relevant? I'm clearly not saying thatany of these factors in their own will be a deciding factor, but they will all be considered.
Massive spending cuts on the way for NI
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/04/george-osborne-spending-cuts-change-state-beyond-recognition-ifs
Quote from: seafoid on December 04, 2014, 08:03:44 PM
Massive spending cuts on the way for NI
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/dec/04/george-osborne-spending-cuts-change-state-beyond-recognition-ifs
Actually the cuts will be bigger than these, this is England, NI spends more than England and will be brought into line.
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
The good old Russell group. There's about 40 universities claiming to be in that top 20!
Somebody earlier in the thread made a good point about the skills. The south had a twin approach - lower corporation tax and skills development. The north will struggle to produce the graduates needed to attract investors -just not enough scale compared to the south.
Quote from: Rois on December 04, 2014, 11:18:41 AM
I've a couple of points I picked up from a presentation this morning by Neil Gibson from Oxford Economics/UU.
1. The legislation is drafted and ready to go
2. If the decision was based on the impact to the UK treasury alone, it wouldn't be contemplated
3. The legislation would only impact corporation tax - any revenues from income taxes, VAT and other indirect taxes as a result of the devolution of corp tax would still flow to the UK purse
4. Compromises are required from public sector, but cuts in public sector are coming whether there is corp tax devolution or not
5. Possible requirement from the business community to surrender something - R&D reliefs, INI grants, low business rates, low wages
6. The ultimate decision at this point, however, will likely lie in whether the Conservatives need the support of Unionists to remain in coalition
Very important points there. The cut in corporation tax is not an all rosy thing.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 04, 2014, 04:30:17 PM
Quote from: bailestil on December 04, 2014, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Ah the old best GCSE and A-Levels argument trotted out.
The problem isnt the top 10%, its the rest.
Its the fact that Ireland has TCD, UCD, DIT, DCU, NUI, RCI, UL, CIT, SIT LKIT and more i've missed.
N.Ireland Has Queen's and the University of Belfast aka UU.
If N.I produces 50 computer science graduates a year, that isn't gonna make a dent in the number of IT companies looking to open here.
No Point pumping out History graduates and saying there are no jobs for them.
yep there are/were IT jobs in the north and there wasn't enough qualified people to take them.
my missus worked for a company that opened up a Belfast office.
was always trying to recruit IT staff at all levels. couldn't get them.
had to import many from EU, india etc
a lot of the investNI based start up industries were heavily heavily subsidised
a lot of the graduates will head south as the money is way better!
this corporation tax project will be interesting though!
Very true, but conversely some Multi-Nationals like the idea of the north because of the lower pay scales compared to both Dublin and the rest of the UK.
The problem being is that we're churning out teachers and Business studies graduates by the bucket load with no work for either.
Is there a case for offering more bursaries or lower fees for certain courses?
Like software, ICT or engineering?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 05, 2014, 10:57:18 AM
Is there a case for offering more bursaries or lower fees for certain courses?
Like software, ICT or engineering?
Definitely agree with that. Also the IT companies should be trying to tie in grads with helping pay fees in return for two or three years of employment post-university. Giving the students say £5k per year at uni and then getting them to work for a reasonable and assured salary after graduation would be a big incentive to getting grads into the right courses.
Quote from: Rois on December 05, 2014, 11:18:00 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 05, 2014, 10:57:18 AM
Is there a case for offering more bursaries or lower fees for certain courses?
Like software, ICT or engineering?
Definitely agree with that. Also the IT companies should be trying to tie in grads with helping pay fees in return for two or three years of employment post-university. Giving the students say £5k per year at uni and then getting them to work for a reasonable and assured salary after graduation would be a big incentive to getting grads into the right courses.
Is there anything to be said for some of the IT companies offering positions straight from school, training the staff in skills that they actually use on the job and gaining qualifications there over a certain number of years?
The ICT "industry" does not do enough to enhance its own labour supply. It doesn't even do enough to inform people about the opportunities available, they simply fight over the graduates without doing anything to increase the number of people doing these courses. How about an industry consortium providing loans to students which are written off if the student comes to work in the industry for a period?
All decent enough suggestions, but i suppose the main point is, that a cut in corporation tax in itself isnt enough.
We need to identify the type of business we want to attarct here ( and we already have a bit of a head start in the Software sector) and activly encourage or provide incentives for young people to follow that career path.
Quote from: JohnDenver on December 05, 2014, 11:33:37 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 05, 2014, 11:18:00 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 05, 2014, 10:57:18 AM
Is there a case for offering more bursaries or lower fees for certain courses?
Like software, ICT or engineering?
Definitely agree with that. Also the IT companies should be trying to tie in grads with helping pay fees in return for two or three years of employment post-university. Giving the students say £5k per year at uni and then getting them to work for a reasonable and assured salary after graduation would be a big incentive to getting grads into the right courses.
Is there anything to be said for some of the IT companies offering positions straight from school, training the staff in skills that they actually use on the job and gaining qualifications there over a certain number of years?
They are starting to do this, I know Allstate offer an apprenticeship type arrangement. There are other IT companies looking at it, and I know one of the posters on the board here (albeit not as regular these days) is involved in a similar project with a large indigenous IT based organistion.
Quote from: johnneycool on December 05, 2014, 10:36:41 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on December 04, 2014, 04:30:17 PM
Quote from: bailestil on December 04, 2014, 12:06:02 PM
Quote from: Mario on December 04, 2014, 11:56:27 AM
Quote from: balladmaker on December 04, 2014, 11:13:08 AM
QuoteIreland pumped a fortune into it HE colleges and Universities all through the 90's and 00's. The opposite is happening in North.
I Think they don't seem to get that part.
+1
Queens would only be slightly behind Trinity in the University rankings and probably above any other Irish university. It's also part of the Russell group which makes it a top 20 post graduate university in the UK. Northern Ireland consistently has the best exam results at GCSE/A-Level in the UK, i think it's unfair to say our colleges are far behind the South.
Ah the old best GCSE and A-Levels argument trotted out.
The problem isnt the top 10%, its the rest.
Its the fact that Ireland has TCD, UCD, DIT, DCU, NUI, RCI, UL, CIT, SIT LKIT and more i've missed.
N.Ireland Has Queen's and the University of Belfast aka UU.
If N.I produces 50 computer science graduates a year, that isn't gonna make a dent in the number of IT companies looking to open here.
No Point pumping out History graduates and saying there are no jobs for them.
yep there are/were IT jobs in the north and there wasn't enough qualified people to take them.
my missus worked for a company that opened up a Belfast office.
was always trying to recruit IT staff at all levels. couldn't get them.
had to import many from EU, india etc
a lot of the investNI based start up industries were heavily heavily subsidised
a lot of the graduates will head south as the money is way better!
this corporation tax project will be interesting though!
Very true, but conversely some Multi-Nationals like the idea of the north because of the lower pay scales compared to both Dublin and the rest of the UK.
The problem being is that we're churning out teachers and Business studies graduates by the bucket load with no work for either.
I'd agree with you
Big business are looking for huge financial incentives to set up anywhere - esp in the north given it's recent history and reputation.
Pay scales def are a big factor but the severe lack of skills is the killer.
It will take the norths unis and colleges a few years to churn out ict grads - but more importantly these guys need 6-10 years exp before they would be a valuable asset in a workforce.
That's a while to wait as right now there's feck all up there!
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on December 05, 2014, 03:25:16 PM
Quote from: JohnDenver on December 05, 2014, 11:33:37 AM
Quote from: Rois on December 05, 2014, 11:18:00 AM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 05, 2014, 10:57:18 AM
Is there a case for offering more bursaries or lower fees for certain courses?
Like software, ICT or engineering?
Definitely agree with that. Also the IT companies should be trying to tie in grads with helping pay fees in return for two or three years of employment post-university. Giving the students say £5k per year at uni and then getting them to work for a reasonable and assured salary after graduation would be a big incentive to getting grads into the right courses.
Is there anything to be said for some of the IT companies offering positions straight from school, training the staff in skills that they actually use on the job and gaining qualifications there over a certain number of years?
They are starting to do this, I know Allstate offer an apprenticeship type arrangement. There are other IT companies looking at it, and I know one of the posters on the board here (albeit not as regular these days) is involved in a similar project with a large indigenous IT based organistion.
If it's the same company I'm thinking of - they got unreal investment from all over the shop to set up in the first place!!
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
That may be true ( and indeed further afeild) but that highlights another point, that most of the job promotion is in belfast rather than regiona areas or places like Derry, so people have no choice but to commute to belfast (or move there) for work.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 11, 2014, 12:44:44 PM
That may be true ( and indeed further afeild) but that highlights another point, that most of the job promotion is in belfast rather than regiona areas or places like Derry, so people have no choice but to commute to belfast (or move there) for work.
Correct.
Hence the need to upgrade the roads and junctions into Belfast.
Decentralise it a lot more and there is less strain on the infrastructure in Belfast.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 11, 2014, 12:44:44 PM
That may be true ( and indeed further afeild) but that highlights another point, that most of the job promotion is in belfast rather than regiona areas or places like Derry, so people have no choice but to commute to belfast (or move there) for work.
Is it not the same the world over?
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:54:13 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 11, 2014, 12:44:44 PM
That may be true ( and indeed further afeild) but that highlights another point, that most of the job promotion is in belfast rather than regiona areas or places like Derry, so people have no choice but to commute to belfast (or move there) for work.
Is it not the same the world over?
It is, but god forbid we should try and do something better!
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:54:13 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 11, 2014, 12:44:44 PM
That may be true ( and indeed further afeild) but that highlights another point, that most of the job promotion is in belfast rather than regiona areas or places like Derry, so people have no choice but to commute to belfast (or move there) for work.
Is it not the same the world over?
This is something Stormount can fix, they have the power to do so.
You would think InvestNI would be working most in the areas of high unemployment.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
They may do have bigger populations but they don't have the bigger need. Creating jobs in Belfast where is difficult to get the experienced staff while unemployment is higher elsewhere. Strange logic that.
Sinn Fien look the worst in this. Senior party in the executive, with a Derry deputy FM and ministers with powers to do something about it, but nothing is done about it.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
This may be true, but the contention is that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast, its catchment to work area is probably also close to 40% of the Belfast one.
Derry doesn't get much a fair shot at things. Even in the Republic where Dublin is dominant, Cork is prosperous and is a base for a variety of industries , Limerick and Galway have a motorway about to completed between them as well as one to Dublin, and all of these have full universities and a IT as well.
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%
Why does Belfast get 80%?
You will be a good few miles from Belfast before you get 80% of the north's population.
Maguire01 you only seem, to want to defend the unfair treatment of the northwest, picking out one line of the article. They are plenty of good points raised that could help to improve the situation. You don't seem to want to discuss the positives that could be reached.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
They may do have bigger populations but they don't have the bigger need. Creating jobs in Belfast where is difficult to get the experienced staff while unemployment is higher elsewhere. Strange logic that.
Sinn Fien look the worst in this. Senior party in the executive, with a Derry deputy FM and ministers with powers to do something about it, but nothing is done about it.
They absolutely do,
because they have the bigger population.
As for SF looking the worst out of it, it won't make a blind bit of difference. West Belfast continually fails to attract investment and prosperity, yet continues to return the same politicians. I can't see the logic myself.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:42:06 PM
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%
Why does Belfast get 80%?
You will be a good few miles from Belfast before you get 80% of the north's population.
Maguire01 you only seem, to want to defend the unfair treatment of the northwest, picking out one line of the article. They are plenty of good points raised that could help to improve the situation. You don't seem to want to discuss the positives that could be reached.
Absolutely not. I don't think that Derry gets a fair slice of the cake. Neither does Fermanagh, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal... But it does it no favours when the argument makes disingenuous claims like the one I pointed out.
Derry clearly needs investment in terms of infrastructure (roads / rail etc.) before foreign companies will consider investing (the same with all the other places I mentioned. I (genuinely) don't know if Derry has an appropriate skills base to attract some of these jobs - for example, would Derry be able to provide the suitably skilled/educated resource for a Citibank type investment?
Quote from: armaghniac on December 11, 2014, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
This may be true, but the contention is that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast, its catchment to work area is probably also close to 40% of the Belfast one.
Derry doesn't get much a fair shot at things. Even in the Republic where Dublin is dominant, Cork is prosperous and is a base for a variety of industries , Limerick and Galway have a motorway about to completed between them as well as one to Dublin, and all of these have full universities and a IT as well.
Eh, but i've just shown that it isn't. Derry's catchment (in terms of population) isn't even close to Belfast's.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
They may do have bigger populations but they don't have the bigger need. Creating jobs in Belfast where is difficult to get the experienced staff while unemployment is higher elsewhere. Strange logic that.
Sinn Fien look the worst in this. Senior party in the executive, with a Derry deputy FM and ministers with powers to do something about it, but nothing is done about it.
They absolutely do, because they have the bigger population.
As for SF looking the worst out of it, it won't make a blind bit of difference. West Belfast continually fails to attract investment and prosperity, yet continues to return the same politicians. I can't see the logic myself.
They do not have a 77.3% bigger need than Derry. That is just wrong. The getting more proportionally than Derry and have done for a long time. Derry should actually be getting more proportionally to make up the under investment or a long period of time.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 02:24:28 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:42:06 PM
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%
Why does Belfast get 80%?
You will be a good few miles from Belfast before you get 80% of the north's population.
Maguire01 you only seem, to want to defend the unfair treatment of the northwest, picking out one line of the article. They are plenty of good points raised that could help to improve the situation. You don't seem to want to discuss the positives that could be reached.
Absolutely not. I don't think that Derry gets a fair slice of the cake. Neither does Fermanagh, Tyrone, Monaghan, Donegal... But it does it no favours when the argument makes disingenuous claims like the one I pointed out.
Derry clearly needs investment in terms of infrastructure (roads / rail etc.) before foreign companies will consider investing (the same with all the other places I mentioned. I (genuinely) don't know if Derry has an appropriate skills base to attract some of these jobs - for example, would Derry be able to provide the suitably skilled/educated resource for a Citibank type investment?
Well ifother smaller Cities like Galway can, why not Derry? Many of the people who work in Citigroup/Allstate/Intel/Google etc are from Derry/Tyrone/Donegal. They could work at home instead of Belfast/Dublin etc.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 11, 2014, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
This may be true, but the contention is that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast, its catchment to work area is probably also close to 40% of the Belfast one.
Derry doesn't get much a fair shot at things. Even in the Republic where Dublin is dominant, Cork is prosperous and is a base for a variety of industries , Limerick and Galway have a motorway about to completed between them as well as one to Dublin, and all of these have full universities and a IT as well.
Eh, but i've just shown that it isn't. Derry's catchment (in terms of population) isn't even close to Belfast's.
The article says 40% the size of Belfast, it doesn't try to say it is close to the size of Belfast, only you say that. And you don't provide any links to what the difference is, you have just listed some big towns near to Belfast, saying it is bigger.
Where have you proved it is not 40% size of Belfast?
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 02:41:28 PM
The article says 40% the size of Belfast, it doesn't try to say it is close to the size of Belfast, only you say that. And you don't provide any links to what the difference is, you have just listed some big towns near to Belfast, saying it is bigger.
Where have you proved it is not 40% size of Belfast?
This. Unless the commute to work proportion is radically different than 40% then it does not change the point, and even if it were it might change the ratio to 38% (say) which makes no real different to the comparison that Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
They may do have bigger populations but they don't have the bigger need. Creating jobs in Belfast where is difficult to get the experienced staff while unemployment is higher elsewhere. Strange logic that.
Sinn Fien look the worst in this. Senior party in the executive, with a Derry deputy FM and ministers with powers to do something about it, but nothing is done about it.
They absolutely do, because they have the bigger population.
As for SF looking the worst out of it, it won't make a blind bit of difference. West Belfast continually fails to attract investment and prosperity, yet continues to return the same politicians. I can't see the logic myself.
I should have also said the SDLP have not helped the situation either. The sitting MP for foyle for the last life time has been SDLP. All politicians of the northwest have been poor in this regard.
West Belfast is part of Belfast, they are within walking distance to plenty of these jobs. Certainly don't have commute 2 hours to get to them.
It is like the flegers protesting, all the investment is within short traveling distance to them and they think they are getting shafted.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 02:41:28 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 02:26:01 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on December 11, 2014, 01:32:27 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
This may be true, but the contention is that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast, its catchment to work area is probably also close to 40% of the Belfast one.
Derry doesn't get much a fair shot at things. Even in the Republic where Dublin is dominant, Cork is prosperous and is a base for a variety of industries , Limerick and Galway have a motorway about to completed between them as well as one to Dublin, and all of these have full universities and a IT as well.
Eh, but i've just shown that it isn't. Derry's catchment (in terms of population) isn't even close to Belfast's.
The article says 40% the size of Belfast, it doesn't try to say it is close to the size of Belfast, only you say that. And you don't provide any links to what the difference is, you have just listed some big towns near to Belfast, saying it is bigger.
Where have you proved it is not 40% size of Belfast?
Fair point - my mistake, although the comparison of "Greater" Belfast to "Greater" Derry ignores the fact that the catchment areas for these cities is much wider than the "Greater" areas.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 02:50:52 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 02:19:35 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:30:51 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 01:20:19 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 01:12:26 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 12:27:23 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 12:09:28 PM
Seen someone share this on facebook. I thought it was interesting
Belfastards, simply no other term for them.
In the six months between April and October Invest NI announced 5000 new jobs for Belfast but just 50 for Derry. These were jigh paid jobs not the low paid call centre type jobs given to Derry with one announcement paying on average £57,000. As Anita Robinson revealed on Radio Foyle in the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. To put that into perspective Derry only has about 35,000 jobs compared to over 200,000 in Belfast despite the fact that Derry is 40% the size of Belfast (measured by either council areas Derry 108,000 versus Belfast 267,000 or Greater Derry 237,000 v Greater Belfast 576,000; source Wikipedia).
Belfast gives itself 80% of Invest NI financing while Derry gets just 2.7%, organised by having 14 staff in Derry and 536 in Belfast.
We have been denied a University for 50 years now, while Belfast has managed to get both Universities located there. Now they're spending £300 million on a new campus in Belfast while saying there is no money for an £11 million building at Magee.
Aside from a promise of 500 jobs to Ballykelly which now looks doubtful there has been no decentralisation, neither the 5000 jobs mentioned in the Bain report nor the 20,000 jobs that would actually produce a fair redistribution of civil service jobs based on population levels. Apparently 1 in 12 in Belfast work for the civil service but in Derry what few jobs we have are being cut.
These 20000 extra civil servants in Belfast need housed in additional millions of square feet of office space which then serves as a subsidy via rates to Belfast City Council who then enjoy per capita council budget of £550 versus just £370 in Derry. These civil servants then use the Belfast airports so in effect subsidising them with business while the rate payers of Derry get to subsidise LDY's business losses.
Our railway is constantly being delayed on phrase II of the line upgrade and on the old station revamp. The A5 road to Dublin has been postponed until 2028 and A6 to Belfast is in limbo.
Our main stadium has been refused funds for renovation for the past 30 years while Stormont funded not 1, not 2, but 3 new stadia in Belfast for over £100 million with plans for a 4th stadium for athletics. Finally when we get funding for the Brandywell it is only £8 million and is not just for a stadium but for a host of projects in that area and will be funded by Derry City council not Stormont.
Our plastic tent/concert hall was refused £1 million to extend its lease for one more year while the Waterfront is getting a £29 million extension. Indeed is the rumour true that the concert hall could have been purchased for £6 million but was instead leased for a year for £4.6 million so that it would not form part of any legacy after City of Culture year.
The same fate befell the Turner Prize Gallery which had enjoyed 70,000 visitors in 2 months while millions have been spent on The Lyric Theatre (£11 million), The Opera House and The Ulster Museum all in Belfast. The Titanic Museum got £100 million of public funding on its own and when £20 million European funding application was turned down the Northern Ireland exchequer just picked that up as well.
Previously we had to fight to get gas extended to the West, they wanted our power station to close (and it was only the power station changing from coal to gas that saved both projects), they want to close down Magilligan jail and relocate the prisoners to a new prison near Belfast, they set a criteria of "within 45 miles of Belfast" for the new Police training college deliberately to exclude Derry even though the Irish government offered £50 million towards it's construction if it was in Derry, and they did eventually manage to steal Project Kelvin despite public assurances.
Then there's the questions over our regional cancer centre, lower allowances for housing benefit payments, tax breaks for commuting via public transport to Belfast but not Derry using the same Translink buses and trains, etc, etc, etc.
The discrimination against Derry and the West has been going on for years and regrettably the new Stormont and Good Friday Agreement has just repeated the age old pattern. https://www.change.org/p/the-northern-ireland-executive-that-the-stormont-executive-and-assembly-immediately-redresses-the-historical-infrastructural-deficit-in-derry-by-reinstating-the-a5-a6-upgrades-completing-the-passing-loop-on-the-derry-belfast-rail-line-and-passing-the?recruiter=20156180&utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=facebook&utm_campaign=share_facebook_responsive&utm_term=mob-xs-share_petition-custom_msg
The point in bold ignores the fact that people from North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc all travel into Belfast to work.
The same way as people from Omagh, Letterkenny, Limavady, Inishowen etc travel into Derry for work. Your bit in bold is not relevant.
North Down, Lisburn, South Antrim etc. have populations many multiples of the areas you're talking about. For example, there are 20,000 people in Omagh, 70,000 in Lisburn, 20,000 in Letterkenny, 60,000 in Bangor... the point is that Belfast has a much bigger population catchment.
They may do have bigger populations but they don't have the bigger need. Creating jobs in Belfast where is difficult to get the experienced staff while unemployment is higher elsewhere. Strange logic that.
Sinn Fien look the worst in this. Senior party in the executive, with a Derry deputy FM and ministers with powers to do something about it, but nothing is done about it.
They absolutely do, because they have the bigger population.
As for SF looking the worst out of it, it won't make a blind bit of difference. West Belfast continually fails to attract investment and prosperity, yet continues to return the same politicians. I can't see the logic myself.
I should have also said the SDLP have not helped the situation either. The sitting MP for foyle for the last life time has been SDLP. All politicians of the northwest have been poor in this regard.
West Belfast is part of Belfast, they are within walking distance to plenty of these jobs. Certainly don't have commute 2 hours to get to them.
It is like the flegers protesting, all the investment is within short traveling distance to them and they think they are getting shafted.
Agreed.
It's just not an easy fix. It's a bit catch 22 - need the population in an area to justify investment - won't have the population until you invest, companies want to invest where there are other companies etc.
Well they could at least start with the public jobs like InvestNI. Derry should have 40% of the jobs Belfast has.
They should also be encouraging companies open up sub offices in Derry like Kainos/Allstate/Fijitsu already do.
The people are already there in the Northwest for the jobs. They are either commuting to Belfast or have moved there. I'm sure if you looked at schools the staff of the big compaines in Belfast went to, a lot would have went to northwest schools. People from the Northwest when qualified have to move for the work (to Belfast/Dublin or further a field). While there is a selection for the people of greater Belfast.
There is plenty Stormount can or could do, but they are not. Looks like they are going for the easy jobs in Belfast, the Belfast media like the headlines of the new jobs. Very few worried about it impacts elsewhere. Congestion in Belfast, note also Dublin for lack of housing due to investment being centered there and under investment elsewhere.
From a GAA point, this is not good for all the rural clubs in the west. High tech jobs in the East and little manual jobs at home = emigration.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 03:14:07 PM
Well they could at least start with the public jobs like InvestNI. Derry should have 40% of the jobs Belfast has.
They should also be encouraging companies open up sub offices in Derry like Kainos/Allstate/Fijitsu already do.
The people are already there in the Northwest for the jobs. They are either commuting to Belfast or have moved there. I'm sure if looked at schools the staff of the big compaines in Belfast went to, a lot would be northwest schools. People from the Northwest when qualified have to move for the work (to Belfast/Dublin or further a field). While there is a selection for the people of greater Belfast.
There is plenty Stormount can or could do, but are not.
From a GAA point, this is not good for all the rural clubs in the west. High tech jobs in the East, little manual jobs at home.
Derry is far from unique in this regard. Belfast is full of people from Fermanagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan, not just the North West. Dublin is full of people from just about every other county in Ireland.
I agree with moving some public sector jobs. As for the private sector - if Derry is good enough, or attractive enough they'll invest. Obviously government could (and should) do more in terms of infrastructure etc. to assist in making the likes of Derry, Tyrone and Fermanagh more attractive, but Invest NI can't insist that, for example, 4/10 American companies wanting to invest in NI set up in Derry rather than Belfast.
It would help if InvestNI had more people in Derry to help it's case. They are doing good work for Belfast, but as I said before, proportionally the need is greater elsewhere. 536 staff versus 14 it is no one wonder it easier to sell Belfast with all them staff.
If Derry had 220 InvestNI staff (40% of current Belfast/Derry total) instead of it current 14, do you think they would be attracting more jobs or selling it self better?
I'm sure an extra 204 alone jobs would help the unemployment rate in Derry.
Do you think if all the opportunities were at home, would as many of these Fermanagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan people would work at home instead of Belfast/Dublin?
These counties are creating the experienced workforce. The government is failing in creating the public jobs at home and encouraging the private jobs locating near their home counties.
Just because Derry is not unique does it make it any less wrong.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 03:40:02 PM
It would help if InvestNI had more people in Derry to help it's case. They are doing good work for Belfast, but as I said before, proportionally the need is greater elsewhere. 536 staff versus 14 it is no one wonder it easier to sell Belfast with all them staff.
If Derry had 220 InvestNI staff (40% of current Belfast/Derry total) instead of it current 14, do you think they would be attracting more jobs or selling it self better?
I'm sure an extra 204 alone jobs would help the unemployment rate in Derry.
Do you think if all the opportunities were at home, would as many of these Fermanagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan people would work at home instead of Belfast/Dublin?
These counties are creating the experienced workforce. The government is failing in creating the public jobs at home and encouraging the private jobs locating near their home counties.
Just because Derry is not unique does it make it any less wrong.
+1
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 03:40:02 PM
It would help if InvestNI had more people in Derry to help it's case. They are doing good work for Belfast, but as I said before, proportionally the need is greater elsewhere. 536 staff versus 14 it is no one wonder it easier to sell Belfast with all them staff.
If Derry had 220 InvestNI staff (40% of current Belfast/Derry total) instead of it current 14, do you think they would be attracting more jobs or selling it self better?
I'm sure an extra 204 alone jobs would help the unemployment rate in Derry.
Do you think if all the opportunities were at home, would as many of these Fermanagh, Tyrone, Donegal, Monaghan people would work at home instead of Belfast/Dublin?
These counties are creating the experienced workforce. The government is failing in creating the public jobs at home and encouraging the private jobs locating near their home counties.
Just because Derry is not unique does it make it any less wrong.
But there's an element of economies of scale. Companies want and often need other companies around them to support their business. Sometimes this just won't be viable in smaller towns and cities. With the best will in the world, Derry will not attract 40% (or whatever the appropriate proportion is) of Foreign Direct Investment into NI because of this. There's also the fact that, even given investment in infrastructure, it's significantly more remote than Belfast (to the likes of Dublin and London), which will be a factor for some (though not all) companies.
This is reason why they have more need. As you say it is more difficult but they are getting less help.
Other Irish cities of similar size fair better than Derry.
The government are failing them and not giving them a fair chance. There is lots they can do.
They are doing the easy work in Belfast instead.
I'm sure you have also plenty of ideas of what could help the situation.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
This is reason why they have more need. As you say it is more difficult but they are getting less help.
Other Irish cities of similar size fair better than Derry.
The government are failing them and not giving them a fair chance. There is lots they can do.
They are doing the easy work in Belfast instead.
I'm sure you have also plenty of ideas of what could help the situation.
I don't have all the answers at all. And the options are often conflicted - for example which of these scenarios should have priority:
A5 to Derry or Westland/M2/M3 interchange?
Rail connection to International Airport or improved rail line to Derry?
It's not straightforward. I'd definitely support moving public sector jobs out of Belfast - not exclusively to the NW either.
Back to the main topic on the thread - i'm not sure devolving corporation tax is a great idea - it's a high-risk strategy and i'm not sure the likely rewards will outweigh the hit on the block grant. And given that the parties can't agree on existing cuts, i'm not sure how they'll agree the additional cuts that will be required if the rate of tax is reduced.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
This is reason why they have more need. As you say it is more difficult but they are getting less help.
Other Irish cities of similar size fair better than Derry.
The government are failing them and not giving them a fair chance. There is lots they can do.
They are doing the easy work in Belfast instead.
I'm sure you have also plenty of ideas of what could help the situation.
I don't have all the answers at all. And the options are often conflicted - for example which of these scenarios should have priority:
A5 to Derry or Westland/M2/M3 interchange?
Rail connection to International Airport or improved rail line to Derry?
It's not straightforward. I'd definitely support moving public sector jobs out of Belfast - not exclusively to the NW either.
Back to the main topic on the thread - i'm not sure devolving corporation tax is a great idea - it's a high-risk strategy and i'm not sure the likely rewards will outweigh the hit on the block grant. And given that the parties can't agree on existing cuts, i'm not sure how they'll agree the additional cuts that will be required if the rate of tax is reduced.
I would build the Omagh and Strabane bypass part of the A5, the Dungiven bypass and A6 road from the M1 to Toome.
If the southern government also gave their share then all of the A5 from Strabane to Omagh could be completed.
In Belfast I would try to reduce the current traffic first. Firstly stop the stupidity of building offices in the Titanic quarter (one road in and out on the coldest/bleak site in Belfast, which is only going to make the west link much worse).
The new office space needed for all the high tech jobs could be built in a new business park (something like east point or citywest in Dublin). This could be located just off a major junction on the M1 (the Maze site with a new off slip) or M2 (Mallusk or Templepatrick) which would help traffic in Belfast and bring the jobs closer to people of the west.
The cost of the M2/M3 westlink upgrade is £130 million. How about taking 1 or 2 million of it and spend it on setting up a scheme to encourage business and thier staff to work from home. A few thousand working from home each day would reduce traffic levels.
I agree with you about moving public sector out of Belfast to all parts. Every job moved out would further help traffic in Belfast. To reduce traffic level in Belfast the would better spending money.
How about moving the assembly out of Stormount to likes of Dungannon (historic seat of Ulster) or Enniskillen. The likes of Canada, Brazil, Australia or West Germany in past don't have their government reside in their big cities, so no reason why everyone needs to be up on hill.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 12, 2014, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
This is reason why they have more need. As you say it is more difficult but they are getting less help.
Other Irish cities of similar size fair better than Derry.
The government are failing them and not giving them a fair chance. There is lots they can do.
They are doing the easy work in Belfast instead.
I'm sure you have also plenty of ideas of what could help the situation.
I don't have all the answers at all. And the options are often conflicted - for example which of these scenarios should have priority:
A5 to Derry or Westland/M2/M3 interchange?
Rail connection to International Airport or improved rail line to Derry?
It's not straightforward. I'd definitely support moving public sector jobs out of Belfast - not exclusively to the NW either.
Back to the main topic on the thread - i'm not sure devolving corporation tax is a great idea - it's a high-risk strategy and i'm not sure the likely rewards will outweigh the hit on the block grant. And given that the parties can't agree on existing cuts, i'm not sure how they'll agree the additional cuts that will be required if the rate of tax is reduced.
I would build the Omagh and Strabane bypass part of the A5, the Dungiven bypass and A6 road from the M1 to Toome.
If the southern government also gave their share then all of the A5 from Strabane to Omagh could be completed.
In Belfast I would try to reduce the current traffic first. Firstly stop the stupidity of building offices in the Titanic quarter (one road in and out on the coldest/bleak site in Belfast, which is only going to make the west link much worse).
The new office space needed for all the high tech jobs could be built in a new business park (something like east point or citywest in Dublin). This could be located just off a major junction on the M1 (the Maze site with a new off slip) or M2 (Mallusk or Templepatrick) which would help traffic in Belfast and bring the jobs closer to people of the west.
The cost of the M2/M3 westlink upgrade is £130 million. How about taking 1 or 2 million of it and spend it on setting up a scheme to encourage business and thier staff to work from home. A few thousand working from home each day would reduce traffic levels.
I agree with you about moving public sector out of Belfast to all parts. Every job moved out would further help traffic in Belfast. To reduce traffic level in Belfast the would better spending money.
How about moving the assembly out of Stormount to likes of Dungannon (historic seat of Ulster) or Enniskillen. The likes of Canada, Brazil, Australia or West Germany in past don't have their government reside in their big cities, so no reason why everyone needs to be up on hill.
I agree with a lot of what you say. I'd have no issue in moving the Assembly out of Belfast, although I imagine it creates a relatively small amount of traffic in comparison to the government departments themselves. Definitely a business park, including some of those government departments, at somewhere like the Maze, could make a massive difference in the volume of traffic heading into the city, and there's be no need for current staff to relocate.
I think the M2/M3/Westlink interchange is an absolute priority, it's a mess.
Interestingly, with Belfast having such a high proportion of people working in the public sector, flexible start and finish times actually spread the traffic - if the economy was 'rebalanced', the peak time traffic could be even more horrendous.
Still think west of the bann needs to do more to attract the private sector to it
whilst I am from south Armagh and commute daily to Belfast
a lot of my clients are guys I went to school and who as soon as they had an idea to set up business relocated to newry
Newry has a lot of infrastructure that west of Bann doesn't. Motorway beside it, railway and not far from Belfast or Dublin. All helps.
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 12, 2014, 12:19:07 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 12, 2014, 11:50:08 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on December 11, 2014, 05:10:28 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 11, 2014, 04:43:09 PM
This is reason why they have more need. As you say it is more difficult but they are getting less help.
Other Irish cities of similar size fair better than Derry.
The government are failing them and not giving them a fair chance. There is lots they can do.
They are doing the easy work in Belfast instead.
I'm sure you have also plenty of ideas of what could help the situation.
I don't have all the answers at all. And the options are often conflicted - for example which of these scenarios should have priority:
A5 to Derry or Westland/M2/M3 interchange?
Rail connection to International Airport or improved rail line to Derry?
It's not straightforward. I'd definitely support moving public sector jobs out of Belfast - not exclusively to the NW either.
Back to the main topic on the thread - i'm not sure devolving corporation tax is a great idea - it's a high-risk strategy and i'm not sure the likely rewards will outweigh the hit on the block grant. And given that the parties can't agree on existing cuts, i'm not sure how they'll agree the additional cuts that will be required if the rate of tax is reduced.
I would build the Omagh and Strabane bypass part of the A5, the Dungiven bypass and A6 road from the M1 to Toome.
If the southern government also gave their share then all of the A5 from Strabane to Omagh could be completed.
In Belfast I would try to reduce the current traffic first. Firstly stop the stupidity of building offices in the Titanic quarter (one road in and out on the coldest/bleak site in Belfast, which is only going to make the west link much worse).
The new office space needed for all the high tech jobs could be built in a new business park (something like east point or citywest in Dublin). This could be located just off a major junction on the M1 (the Maze site with a new off slip) or M2 (Mallusk or Templepatrick) which would help traffic in Belfast and bring the jobs closer to people of the west.
The cost of the M2/M3 westlink upgrade is £130 million. How about taking 1 or 2 million of it and spend it on setting up a scheme to encourage business and thier staff to work from home. A few thousand working from home each day would reduce traffic levels.
I agree with you about moving public sector out of Belfast to all parts. Every job moved out would further help traffic in Belfast. To reduce traffic level in Belfast the would better spending money.
How about moving the assembly out of Stormount to likes of Dungannon (historic seat of Ulster) or Enniskillen. The likes of Canada, Brazil, Australia or West Germany in past don't have their government reside in their big cities, so no reason why everyone needs to be up on hill.
I agree with a lot of what you say. I'd have no issue in moving the Assembly out of Belfast, although I imagine it creates a relatively small amount of traffic in comparison to the government departments themselves. Definitely a business park, including some of those government departments, at somewhere like the Maze, could make a massive difference in the volume of traffic heading into the city, and there's be no need for current staff to relocate.
I think the M2/M3/Westlink interchange is an absolute priority, it's a mess.
Interestingly, with Belfast having such a high proportion of people working in the public sector, flexible start and finish times actually spread the traffic - if the economy was 'rebalanced', the peak time traffic could be even more horrendous.
We agree on a lot, just a pity those with power couldn't stop making same old mistakes and start to work on some of the small good ideas at least.
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2014, 12:35:40 PM
Still think west of the bann needs to do more to attract the private sector to it
whilst I am from south Armagh and commute daily to Belfast
a lot of my clients are guys I went to school and who as soon as they had an idea to set up business relocated to newry
Stormont needs to do more to make the West of the Bann more attractive!!! They chose to pump £300 million into the placing a University of Ulster Campus in Belfast rather than investing in the Derry campus. They've chosen not to push ahead with the A5 and A6 roads. They've chosen not to build a direct train line to Derry through the Sperrins which nobody even bothers to push for. They've chosen not to improve the existing scenic route train line and awful train station that we have. Through Invest NI Stormont has chosen to keep 80% of funding for new companies in Belfast while the Greater Belfast area only has roughly 28% of the population of the 6 counties.
In the past five years Derry has lost 2000 jobs while Belfast has gained 15000. This is down to a strategy which was put in place in the early 1920's and has continued until today. The only difference today is that it is being implemented by both sides of the political fence.
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 12, 2014, 01:00:27 PM
Newry has a lot of infrastructure that west of Bann doesn't. Motorway beside it, railway and not far from Belfast or Dublin. All helps.
I think that is the important point which all private employers look at( location)
unfortunately west of the bann suffers because of its location and no matter what happens this will unfortunately continue to be the case.
How about a referendum in "West of the Bann" to see if they want to join the 26 Cos.
At least ye might get a good road to Dublin if nothing else.
Quote from: naka on December 12, 2014, 03:24:33 PM
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on December 12, 2014, 01:00:27 PM
Newry has a lot of infrastructure that west of Bann doesn't. Motorway beside it, railway and not far from Belfast or Dublin. All helps.
I think that is the important point which all private employers look at( location)
unfortunately west of the bann suffers because of its location and no matter what happens this will unfortunately continue to be the case.
I think the likes of Fermanagh will face a challenge, in the absence of local entrepreneurs who do not gamble away their businesses, as the likes of Longford or Leitrim are not hotbeds of development. But Derry is a moderately big place and should have some chance if fair policies are applied.
Quote from: Rossfan on December 12, 2014, 04:52:30 PM
How about a referendum in "West of the Bann" to see if they want to join the 26 Cos.
At least ye might get a good road to Dublin if nothing else.
It would be a landslide yes.
I see Cameron high tailed it home early today when the Executive Parties wanted a load of £s off him.
I presume we'll be seeing a load of Austerity in the 6 Cos for the forseeable future.
What struck me was home uninspiring Kenny looked standing beside Cameron. I have said it before he is no leader.