Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
We could end up with a few (say up to 8) elite teams and the rest a long way behind and with little chance of bridging the gap. Once you fall behind you could end up in a vicious cycle of players not interested because of lack of results and lack of results due to players not interested etc.
One of the hidden dangers of allowing the above to develop is that the small few elite counties would have a lot of leverage over the system and resources (TV rights).
How many counties have a realistic chance of winning the AI over the next 5 years??
5/6 at a push?? Is that any different to the past where the big sides dominated and you had the odd bolter - Offaly, Ulster sides etc...
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on November 28, 2014, 02:12:15 PM
How many counties have a realistic chance of winning the AI over the next 5 years??
5/6 at a push?? Is that any different to the past where the big sides dominated and you had the odd bolter - Offaly, Ulster sides etc...
It is different.
Any of the sides could have come a cropper in their provinces up to recently. This hasn't been a problem for Dublin and to a lesser extant Mayo for a while. Kerry and Cork obviously have seen no change there but if the likes of Down can't get their players training the same as, say Donegal, then there will be much less a chance of shocks happening in future in Ulster as well.
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
We could end up with a few (say up to 8) elite teams and the rest a long way behind and with little chance of bridging the gap. Once you fall behind you could end up in a vicious cycle of players not interested because of lack of results and lack of results due to players not interested etc.
One of the hidden dangers of allowing the above to develop is that the small few elite counties would have a lot of leverage over the system and resources (TV rights).
The top 8 or so teams has always been the case. Only 12 counties have won the championship in the last 50 years with 3 of those teams being single winners. This is the nature of all sports though and will always be the way. It is getting more extreme with the level of commitment that is now expected but it really isn't going to change the status quo. If we forecast 20 years into the future I would suggest that Kerry will have won 6-8 All Irelands, Dublin 4-6, and the likes of Donegal, Cork, Tyrone, Down, Galway and maybe even Mayo, Derry or Armagh :P will scrap for the rest. I can't see it being any different to the last 20 years apart from maybe a team pulling a one off run but that is unlikely.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
Armagh players are currently expected to train mornings and evening 4 days a week and on a Saturday as well, that is why there have been a number of retirements and players leaving the training panel.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 28, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
We could end up with a few (say up to 8) elite teams and the rest a long way behind and with little chance of bridging the gap. Once you fall behind you could end up in a vicious cycle of players not interested because of lack of results and lack of results due to players not interested etc.
One of the hidden dangers of allowing the above to develop is that the small few elite counties would have a lot of leverage over the system and resources (TV rights).
The top 8 or so teams has always been the case. Only 12 counties have won the championship in the last 50 years with 3 of those teams being single winners. This is the nature of all sports though and will always be the way. It is getting more extreme with the level of commitment that is now expected but it really isn't going to change the status quo. If we forecast 20 years into the future I would suggest that Kerry will have won 6-8 All Irelands, Dublin 4-6, and the likes of Donegal, Cork, Tyrone, Down, Galway and maybe even Mayo, Derry or Armagh :P will scrap for the rest. I can't see it being any different to the last 20 years apart from maybe a team pulling a one off run but that is unlikely.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
Armagh players are currently expected to train mornings and evening 4 days a week and on a Saturday as well, that is why there have been a number of retirements and players leaving the training panel.
9 sessions a week ?.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:19:48 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 28, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
We could end up with a few (say up to 8) elite teams and the rest a long way behind and with little chance of bridging the gap. Once you fall behind you could end up in a vicious cycle of players not interested because of lack of results and lack of results due to players not interested etc.
One of the hidden dangers of allowing the above to develop is that the small few elite counties would have a lot of leverage over the system and resources (TV rights).
The top 8 or so teams has always been the case. Only 12 counties have won the championship in the last 50 years with 3 of those teams being single winners. This is the nature of all sports though and will always be the way. It is getting more extreme with the level of commitment that is now expected but it really isn't going to change the status quo. If we forecast 20 years into the future I would suggest that Kerry will have won 6-8 All Irelands, Dublin 4-6, and the likes of Donegal, Cork, Tyrone, Down, Galway and maybe even Mayo, Derry or Armagh :P will scrap for the rest. I can't see it being any different to the last 20 years apart from maybe a team pulling a one off run but that is unlikely.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
Armagh players are currently expected to train mornings and evening 4 days a week and on a Saturday as well, that is why there have been a number of retirements and players leaving the training panel.
9 sessions a week ?.
Good stuff, did you use a calculator?
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:19:48 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 28, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
We could end up with a few (say up to 8) elite teams and the rest a long way behind and with little chance of bridging the gap. Once you fall behind you could end up in a vicious cycle of players not interested because of lack of results and lack of results due to players not interested etc.
One of the hidden dangers of allowing the above to develop is that the small few elite counties would have a lot of leverage over the system and resources (TV rights).
The top 8 or so teams has always been the case. Only 12 counties have won the championship in the last 50 years with 3 of those teams being single winners. This is the nature of all sports though and will always be the way. It is getting more extreme with the level of commitment that is now expected but it really isn't going to change the status quo. If we forecast 20 years into the future I would suggest that Kerry will have won 6-8 All Irelands, Dublin 4-6, and the likes of Donegal, Cork, Tyrone, Down, Galway and maybe even Mayo, Derry or Armagh :P will scrap for the rest. I can't see it being any different to the last 20 years apart from maybe a team pulling a one off run but that is unlikely.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
Armagh players are currently expected to train mornings and evening 4 days a week and on a Saturday as well, that is why there have been a number of retirements and players leaving the training panel.
9 sessions a week ?.
There was a time when this didn't mean training.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
it wouldnt be that uncommon for club sides to be doing 4/5 sessions a week between on pitch sessions and S&C sessions
From 1973 to 1991 no Ulster or Connacht county beat a Leinster or Munster county in the championship. All-Ireland semi-finals usually resulted in maulings for Ulster and Connacht counties. That was a real crisis of competitiveness.
Gaelic football has if anything become more competitive over the last 12 years or so. Sligo, Fermanagh and Wexford were serious competitors at the business end of the All-Ireland championship in this time, Westmeath and Laois won provincial titles (I know this is now over 10 years ago but it shows what can be done). And anybody with any sense of justice still maintains Louth won one too. Monaghan are one of the game's top 6-8 teams off the back of a population base of barely 60,000. Tipperary are improving and have an All-Ireland minor title to show for it. Cavan have won the last four Ulster under-21 titles.
Donegal and Mayo went from being humiliated in the first round of the 2010 qualifiers to contesting the All-Ireland final in 2012.
What was done by Donegal and Mayo, well there's no reason why several other counties couldn't do the same. Meath, Kildare, Galway, Down, Armagh, Derry being obvious candidates.
Donegal have shown with their system that they can beat more talented teams. System-based play should in theory lead to a levelling of standards.
It just requires the right organisation, preparation and commitment to make a team competitive.
Hurling is no different to football in terms of the time needed to train etc, yet we're coming into a more democratic era in hat seven or eight counties could all conceivably win an All-Ireland in the near future.
The argument about the average age of players is a different one to the competitiveness argument.
I would like to see Jamie Clarke's face as KMcGeeney tells him to pump iron and train 9 times a week...lol (no calculator used). This is madness especially this time of year, you don't mind the training being stepped up a month or 6 weeks before the Championship and then ease up the week before hand but this is just too much to ask a guy to do as he tries to hold down a job(and worse if he's a young family too). We need a few teams with a fistful of exceptional footballers to tear these fit and well drilled robots to bits and then we'll go back focusing on skill again...
It happens all the time. Dublin won the All Ireland last year training around the clock so everyone else thinks this is the way to go ::). I know Kerry won it this year but Kerry are Kerry...the next team to win it using a different technique to the rest of the teams then this will be replicated by the other wannabe's
If I was playing another sport I could conceivably be training/playing 4/5 times a week all for my own enjoyment
eg triathlons, squash, rugby
so I don't see what the big deal is once managers and players are sensible about the workload in sessions
some teams might do 4/5 sessions a week - how many of them are recovery sessions? tactics sessions?
Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.
Quote from: hardstation on November 28, 2014, 07:23:15 PM
I remember seeing an interview with Paul Brady. He said that he trained 17 times a week. He's the best handballer there's ever been.
In saying that, I think he did have a rest day in there.
Arthur
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBGkhPx529g
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on November 28, 2014, 02:12:15 PM
How many counties have a realistic chance of winning the AI over the next 5 years??
5/6 at a push?? Is that any different to the past where the big sides dominated and you had the odd bolter - Offaly, Ulster sides etc...
It is different.
Any of the sides could have come a cropper in their provinces up to recently. This hasn't been a problem for Dublin and to a lesser extant Mayo for a while. Kerry and Cork obviously have seen no change there but if the likes of Down can't get their players training the same as, say Donegal, then there will be much less a chance of shocks happening in future in Ulster as well.
Dublin might rule the roost in Leinster for a while and Kerry will always be handy but I wouldn't put money on either Mayo or Donegal having their provinces to themselves over the next 5 years.
Quote from: seafoid on November 28, 2014, 07:43:28 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:15:21 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on November 28, 2014, 02:12:15 PM
How many counties have a realistic chance of winning the AI over the next 5 years??
5/6 at a push?? Is that any different to the past where the big sides dominated and you had the odd bolter - Offaly, Ulster sides etc...
It is different.
Any of the sides could have come a cropper in their provinces up to recently. This hasn't been a problem for Dublin and to a lesser extant Mayo for a while. Kerry and Cork obviously have seen no change there but if the likes of Down can't get their players training the same as, say Donegal, then there will be much less a chance of shocks happening in future in Ulster as well.
Dublin might rule the roost in Leinster for a while and Kerry will always be handy but I wouldn't put money on either Mayo or Donegal having their provinces to themselves over the next 5 years.
I was narrowing it to up to 8 teams rather than less than 4. I don't see to many of the old style shocks any more, e.g. All-Ireland Champions going down in their Province.
you wouldn't do 4 field sessions in a row. that would be madness
two days might be strength sessions, or a pool, or a long cycle or run to loosen out.
I've often trained 9/10 times for a week or two - morning and evening sessions, mixture of cardio and S&C sessions with lots of eating, sleep and mid day naps.
if you are able to recover properly the benefits can be huge.
Quote from: hardstation on November 28, 2014, 07:23:15 PM
I remember seeing an interview with Paul Brady. He said that he trained 17 times a week. He's the best handballer there's ever been.
In saying that, I think he did have a rest day in there.
He's also a professional though is he not??
To be honest I don't think any elite athlete is going to get bothered about training hard for their sport.
The problems that GAA county teams face though are:
1. You'll have lads coming from a wide geographic area to train. For a lot of lads on a panel it's straight to training from work, then a meeting, then a long drive home, and straight to bed (otherwise they'll sleep in any miss S&C in the morning). That's a gruelling routine 3 times a week.
2. There's a Catch 22 in football in that you have to knock your bollocks in to stand any chance of success, but most teams and most players know before the start of a season that they'll be winning nothing at all.
Growing up I seem to remember that ANY championship win was worth celebrating (in much the same way rugby internationals still are).
Nowadays teams don't even celebrate winning provincial titles, and a national league title win doesn't even raise a murmur of a smile.
I put a lot of this blame on the back door. Once upon a time you knocked your bollocks out with a single specific goal of winning round 1. If you did, it was worth celebrating, worth working harder again, as there were now only 3 teams could stop you winning your province, and only 15 could stop you winning an AI. If you didn't, it was easy street for 6 months.
Id have to agree with you Wobbler, the fun seems to have gone out of it, 5 nights training a week before christmas is ridiculous. Players dont seem to have any life outside football anymore. Even when they do win its just a step on the way to bigger, more ultimate goals.
Quote from: thewobbler on November 28, 2014, 08:53:24 PM
To be honest I don't think any elite athlete is going to get bothered about training hard for their sport.
The problems that GAA county teams face though are:
1. You'll have lads coming from a wide geographic area to train. For a lot of lads on a panel it's straight to training from work, then a meeting, then a long drive home, and straight to bed (otherwise they'll sleep in any miss S&C in the morning). That's a gruelling routine 3 times a week.
2. There's a Catch 22 in football in that you have to knock your bollocks in to stand any chance of success, but most teams and most players know before the start of a season that they'll be winning nothing at all.
Growing up I seem to remember that ANY championship win was worth celebrating (in much the same way rugby internationals still are).
Nowadays teams don't even celebrate winning provincial titles, and a national league title win doesn't even raise a murmur of a smile.
I put a lot of this blame on the back door. Once upon a time you knocked your bollocks out with a single specific goal of winning round 1. If you did, it was worth celebrating, worth working harder again, as there were now only 3 teams could stop you winning your province, and only 15 could stop you winning an AI. If you didn't, it was easy street for 6 months.
A lot of the Qualifier matches are boring as well.
there is very little excitement in the football championship before August
I want to watch Footballers, not super bulked up athletes devoid of basic skills. Time to stop this madness, which is destroying the whole character of our sport
Quote from: BennyCake on November 28, 2014, 07:09:43 PM
Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.
You're essentially trying to fit the workload of a professional athlete into an amateur structure. I think it's gone mad myself but if you're coaching at this level you've no choice because you won't be competitive otherwise. To me the season should be shorter, have more games and club championships not played until July.
The new fad for the first 3-4 months is to do double sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a saturday and sunday session and give guys the days off in between. So six sessions in 7 days.
Then the following week will look like
Gym 6am Monday
Training Tuesday 7.30pm- pitch
Gym 6am Wednesday
Thursday 7.30pm -pitch
friday 6am - gym
Saturday - 11am -pitch
You get Sunday off!
then back into the tuesday/thursday double session cycle. The top 6 counties all train like the above structure. I know that for a fact.
The big issue for me as a coach who has the background in S&C is the load factor. If you're trying to bulk lads up - how can you do it safely when lads are sprinting the following night. The fact is you're on a wing and a prayer. It's a game based on short sharp bursts which means everything that is done- has to be done at speed. You're trying to give as much rest as possible. 36 hours is the maximum that one can get.
That's why so many teams have so many players injured at once and have to carry squads of 35-37 players. Because at any one time you're guaranteed to have 8-10 injured.
Nutrition is huge for an amateur player. You literally have to lumping protein into at every available opportunity when in this cycle. There are professional players in the GAA already- called students. They live like pro athletes and as a result most guys play their best football between 18-25.
This idea that GAA players at county level peak in their late 20's - rubbish- their best football is long played at that level. Once they start working 9-5 -it's the beginning of the end. The human body can only sustain the above until 30 unless they have no job or are teachers.
Not enough money in the game to be professional. It would be a disaster for the Association. But they've got to do something about the training and shorten the bloody season.
Quote from: Pangurban on November 28, 2014, 10:03:56 PM
I want to watch Footballers, not super bulked up athletes devoid of basic skills. Time to stop this madness, which is destroying the whole character of our sport
I agree, but it's not going to happen any time soon.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on November 28, 2014, 08:06:25 PM
you wouldn't do 4 field sessions in a row. that would be madness
two days might be strength sessions, or a pool, or a long cycle or run to loosen out.
I've often trained 9/10 times for a week or two - morning and evening sessions, mixture of cardio and S&C sessions with lots of eating, sleep and mid day naps.
if you are able to recover properly the benefits can be huge.
People using the triathlon analogy doesn't wash in my view. I've done triathlons myself as many have here as well.
But there is no comparison to the load factor of collision sports. You could train twice a day for a triathlon four days in a row no problem and fit work into it if you had to. Provided you ate right and slept well and didn't have kids - it wouldn't be a huge imposition.
Unless you're training for the Olympic triathlon in Rio or a serious time in an Iron-man event there is no comparison. You do a huge amount of training alright. But you don't run into anyone, you don't tackle anyone, you're not twisting or turning. That's why people in their 60's can do them.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on November 28, 2014, 02:16:54 PM
Quote from: muppet on November 28, 2014, 02:05:15 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
We could end up with a few (say up to 8) elite teams and the rest a long way behind and with little chance of bridging the gap. Once you fall behind you could end up in a vicious cycle of players not interested because of lack of results and lack of results due to players not interested etc.
One of the hidden dangers of allowing the above to develop is that the small few elite counties would have a lot of leverage over the system and resources (TV rights).
The top 8 or so teams has always been the case. Only 12 counties have won the championship in the last 50 years with 3 of those teams being single winners. This is the nature of all sports though and will always be the way. It is getting more extreme with the level of commitment that is now expected but it really isn't going to change the status quo. If we forecast 20 years into the future I would suggest that Kerry will have won 6-8 All Irelands, Dublin 4-6, and the likes of Donegal, Cork, Tyrone, Down, Galway and maybe even Mayo, Derry or Armagh :P will scrap for the rest. I can't see it being any different to the last 20 years apart from maybe a team pulling a one off run but that is unlikely.
Quote from: orangeman on November 28, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 28, 2014, 01:55:26 PM
Good article in today's Irish News about the rigorous demands on current IC (and Club) footballers.
This year has seen many high profile retirements with many stating they couldn't adhere to 4 or 5 nights a week training, do you think the demands are too high and we are losing quality footballers at too early an age?
In many other sports someone in their early 30s is regarded in their peak. Marty Clarke doesn't look like he is going to commit to Down due to the 5 nights a week training structure. Personally I think it's all gone a bit crazy.
There's no way teams are training 5 nights a week. This is a myth.
Armagh players are currently expected to train mornings and evening 4 days a week and on a Saturday as well, that is why there have been a number of retirements and players leaving the training panel.
Not like you to be off the mark on these things Bc but that's simply not true. They are training 4 times a week.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 28, 2014, 10:04:57 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 28, 2014, 07:09:43 PM
Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.
You're essentially trying to fit the workload of a professional athlete into an amateur structure. I think it's gone mad myself but if you're coaching at this level you've no choice because you won't be competitive otherwise. To me the season should be shorter, have more games and club championships not played until July.
The new fad for the first 3-4 months is to do double sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a saturday and sunday session and give guys the days off in between. So six sessions in 7 days.
Then the following week will look like
Gym 6am Monday
Training Tuesday 7.30pm- pitch
Gym 6am Wednesday
Thursday 7.30pm -pitch
friday 6am - gym
Saturday - 11am -pitch
You get Sunday off!
then back into the tuesday/thursday double session cycle. The top 6 counties all train like the above structure. I know that for a fact.
The big issue for me as a coach who has the background in S&C is the load factor. If you're trying to bulk lads up - how can you do it safely when lads are sprinting the following night. The fact is you're on a wing and a prayer. It's a game based on short sharp bursts which means everything that is done- has to be done at speed. You're trying to give as much rest as possible. 36 hours is the maximum that one can get.
That's why so many teams have so many players injured at once and have to carry squads of 35-37 players. Because at any one time you're guaranteed to have 8-10 injured.
Nutrition is huge for an amateur player. You literally have to lumping protein into at every available opportunity when in this cycle. There are professional players in the GAA already- called students. They live like pro athletes and as a result most guys play their best football between 18-25.
This idea that GAA players at county level peak in their late 20's - rubbish- their best football is long played at that level. Once they start working 9-5 -it's the beginning of the end. The human body can only sustain the above until 30 unless they have no job or are teachers.
Not enough money in the game to be professional. It would be a disaster for the Association. But they've got to do something about the training and shorten the bloody season.
Teachers get a rough time of it too.
No they don't.
I would agree with the tone of the posts on here. The demands are too high. The training schedule of county teams might come as a surprise to some but the reality is it's not being exaggerated. Who's to blame though? Is it the GAA for allowing the culture of training like a professional get out of control?
A few weeks ago Colm O'Rourke questioned the GPA about it's role within the organization. The response from the players was a united one. I got the impression the players are okay with what's being asked of them. For me though, the only way the demands will stop increasing is if the players themselves take a stand. At present the rules and regulations are very grey around this. There's a collective training ban depending on when you're knocked out but we all know managers are exploiting this and finding ways around it. In fairness, was it this time last year, Wexford took a stand against an under-age manager who was asking too much? But at the end of the day if the players, the men and women who makes the games happen, are happy to continue training like mad, then nothing will change.
Also on the training schedule, I think some people might still have an idea of training involving players doing loads of laps and a game. Nowadays though, there are weights sessions, running sessions, nutrition sessions, ball-work sessions, video-analysis sessions, probably a few more things too. It's a 24/7 job too, it's not the physical work, it's the mental preparation too. For example your diet and your sleep. Neil McGee said recently you'd be getting your yourself psyched up for a Donegal training, the moment you got out of bed. That's the level you have to be operating at.
Quote from: Sea The Stars on November 29, 2014, 01:44:16 PM
I would agree with the tone of the posts on here. The demands are too high. The training schedule of county teams might come as a surprise to some but the reality is it's not being exaggerated. Who's to blame though? Is it the GAA for allowing the culture of training like a professional get out of control?
A few weeks ago Colm O'Rourke questioned the GPA about it's role within the organization. The response from the players was a united one. I got the impression the players are okay with what's being asked of them. For me though, the only way the demands will stop increasing is if the players themselves take a stand. At present the rules and regulations are very grey around this. There's a collective training ban depending on when you're knocked out but we all know managers are exploiting this and finding ways around it. In fairness, was it this time last year, Wexford took a stand against an under-age manager who was asking too much? But at the end of the day if the players, the men and women who makes the games happen, are happy to continue training like mad, then nothing will change.
Also on the training schedule, I think some people might still have an idea of training involving players doing loads of laps and a game. Nowadays though, there are weights sessions, running sessions, nutrition sessions, ball-work sessions, video-analysis sessions, probably a few more things too. It's a 24/7 job too, it's not the physical work, it's the mental preparation too. For example your diet and your sleep. Neil McGee said recently you'd be getting your yourself psyched up for a Donegal training, the moment you got out of bed. That's the level you have to be operating at.
The GPA are only interested in professionalism thats the reality. I've seen them on fund-raising drives in the States and that's what comes across. They've done nothing in terms of lobbying the GAA in terms of making some substantive changes in terms of the demands on players.
They know full well if the demands drop the move towards professionalism is over and they themselves as an organisation are reduced in importance. I've often heard Mc Geeney saying why should I reduce my professionalism. Because it's an amateur sport Kieran. Some people actually do have to work for a living.
The dangerous thing with the current scenario is that many players have to postpone promotions at work, careers etc and then when they retire from county level. They are left miles behind professionally of where they should be without anything like the money to compensate.
Football has completely lost the run of itself over the last fifteen years. I've heard of club teams who are training as hard as county teams did twenty years ago. Early morning training sessions before work, diets, gym programmes, training camps at bank holiday weekends etc.
I'm glad I had to stop playing when I did because all the enjoyment seems to be gone out of the game nowadays at senior level. The whole thing is taken way too seriously and the demands placed on young lads mainly in their twenties are extreme. Club reserve football or Junior B/C is probably the one remaining adult grade where lads can actually enjoy the game.
The elite county players will always do well out of their involvement but you have to wonder what's in it for the middle of the road county player these days. Ridiculous demands and pressure being placed upon them and not much hope of ever really achieving much success. At least twenty years ago they wouldn't have to put their lives on hold to anywhere near the same extent and not as much was demanded of them by mentors. The days of players still going well into their thirties are numbered. Kildare's Brian Flanagan retired earlier this month at the age of 29 and has been told by doctors that he will do well to get to 40 without needing a knee replacement. I'm sure there will be more stories like his in the years ahead.
Quote from: INDIANA on November 28, 2014, 10:04:57 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 28, 2014, 07:09:43 PM
Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.
You're essentially trying to fit the workload of a professional athlete into an amateur structure. I think it's gone mad myself but if you're coaching at this level you've no choice because you won't be competitive otherwise. To me the season should be shorter, have more games and club championships not played until July.
The new fad for the first 3-4 months is to do double sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a saturday and sunday session and give guys the days off in between. So six sessions in 7 days.
Then the following week will look like
Gym 6am Monday
Training Tuesday 7.30pm- pitch
Gym 6am Wednesday
Thursday 7.30pm -pitch
friday 6am - gym
Saturday - 11am -pitch
You get Sunday off!
then back into the tuesday/thursday double session cycle. The top 6 counties all train like the above structure. I know that for a fact.
The big issue for me as a coach who has the background in S&C is the load factor. If you're trying to bulk lads up - how can you do it safely when lads are sprinting the following night. The fact is you're on a wing and a prayer. It's a game based on short sharp bursts which means everything that is done- has to be done at speed. You're trying to give as much rest as possible. 36 hours is the maximum that one can get.
That's why so many teams have so many players injured at once and have to carry squads of 35-37 players. Because at any one time you're guaranteed to have 8-10 injured.
Nutrition is huge for an amateur player. You literally have to lumping protein into at every available opportunity when in this cycle. There are professional players in the GAA already- called students. They live like pro athletes and as a result most guys play their best football between 18-25.
This idea that GAA players at county level peak in their late 20's - rubbish- their best football is long played at that level. Once they start working 9-5 -it's the beginning of the end. The human body can only sustain the above until 30 unless they have no job or are teachers.
Not enough money in the game to be professional. It would be a disaster for the Association. But they've got to do something about the training and shorten the bloody season.
INDIANA
It's a while since I played the game and the introduction of weight training was beginning as I was finishing up but I did have a degree of interest in the concept of weight training separate to the field/ball based training. It was my understanding that after a field session and likewise a pitch session there was a recovery period required the next day - to allow repair of the muscle damage caused during the session just gone.
If I have that right then how can three pitch sessions and three gym sessions in one week be right? Given your S+C knowledge/training can you enlighten me? thanks
Quote from: Red on November 29, 2014, 04:59:22 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on November 28, 2014, 10:04:57 PM
Quote from: BennyCake on November 28, 2014, 07:09:43 PM
Why 5 nights a week? Surely the body needs a days rest in between training sessions? I'm no training expert but training everyday makes no sense whatsoever.
You're essentially trying to fit the workload of a professional athlete into an amateur structure. I think it's gone mad myself but if you're coaching at this level you've no choice because you won't be competitive otherwise. To me the season should be shorter, have more games and club championships not played until July.
The new fad for the first 3-4 months is to do double sessions on Tuesdays and Thursdays with a saturday and sunday session and give guys the days off in between. So six sessions in 7 days.
Then the following week will look like
Gym 6am Monday
Training Tuesday 7.30pm- pitch
Gym 6am Wednesday
Thursday 7.30pm -pitch
friday 6am - gym
Saturday - 11am -pitch
You get Sunday off!
then back into the tuesday/thursday double session cycle. The top 6 counties all train like the above structure. I know that for a fact.
The big issue for me as a coach who has the background in S&C is the load factor. If you're trying to bulk lads up - how can you do it safely when lads are sprinting the following night. The fact is you're on a wing and a prayer. It's a game based on short sharp bursts which means everything that is done- has to be done at speed. You're trying to give as much rest as possible. 36 hours is the maximum that one can get.
That's why so many teams have so many players injured at once and have to carry squads of 35-37 players. Because at any one time you're guaranteed to have 8-10 injured.
Nutrition is huge for an amateur player. You literally have to lumping protein into at every available opportunity when in this cycle. There are professional players in the GAA already- called students. They live like pro athletes and as a result most guys play their best football between 18-25.
This idea that GAA players at county level peak in their late 20's - rubbish- their best football is long played at that level. Once they start working 9-5 -it's the beginning of the end. The human body can only sustain the above until 30 unless they have no job or are teachers.
Not enough money in the game to be professional. It would be a disaster for the Association. But they've got to do something about the training and shorten the bloody season.
INDIANA
It's a while since I played the game and the introduction of weight training was beginning as I was finishing up but I did have a degree of interest in the concept of weight training separate to the field/ball based training. It was my understanding that after a field session and likewise a pitch session there was a recovery period required the next day - to allow repair of the muscle damage caused during the session just gone.
If I have that right then how can three pitch sessions and three gym sessions in one week be right? Given your S+C knowledge/training can you enlighten me? thanks
In a game that requires short sharp sprinting movements you can't keep players fast without proper weight training. Out of season is the only time you can do bulk work (put on a few kgs). But even then club and college team commitments get in the way.
In season like the one I described above guys would be doing as much plyometrics and bodyweight exercises as much as possible. But you do have to lift weights as well. But gym work shouldn't be lifting huge weights in my view for GAA. That's for rugby players and the general juicers.
It's more the load factor. Even doing bodyweight exercises puts muscles under strain. And it's that strain that you bring into training the following day.
Its the lack of rest periods that differentiates amateur from professional. You're trying to prepare players for a current professional standard with huge restraints on you that you don't experience in a professional environment.
Armagh's training regime wouldn't surprise me under Geezer. He trains with Mc Gregor and other pro-athletes. I think he forgets however some of his players have to work too.
Its madness. I'd hate to play now can't be much fun in it anymore.
Good thread.
I think we have to remember that there are limits to what you can do with an amateur sport. The public might have an appetite for games every night of the week that they can watch on TV and played in opulent stadiums under floodlights. But amateur players have a lot on their plate and they can only spend so much time training, competing, and the small matter of all the time they have to spend driving around between all of this on top of the day job. So we maintain the tradition of playing on a Sunday when we know everyone will be available to play.
Who is to blame for the escalating workload on inter-county players? "Blame" is a bit of a loaded word, it implies that somebody somewhere is doing something wrong, but people can only work inside the system they're given. My view is that all high profile spectator sports have a certain competitive impetus.
- Teams need sponsors to keep paying the bills.
- Sponsors need good value for money to make it worth their while.
- In a knockout competition, good value for sponsors means the team staying in the competition longer.
- Team needs to make bigger demands of players to keep them in the competition for longer to justify the sponsorship deal and increase the chances of renewal.
The result is an arms race between teams. If your opponents are training two nights a week, you'll bump your own training up to three nights a week. In response, they bump their training up to four nights a week. Up and up it goes until the calendar is full and every available second of a player's life is full of GAA-related activity. Player burnout is sure to follow, and inter-county careers are getting shorter and shorter.
Something else to bear in mind about the amateur status is that its intention is to ensure that the game isn't corrupted by money. But Michael Cusack's original vision for sport was that the working man should be allowed to play. In his day, only "gentlemen" played sports. Organisations like the RFU and FA rigorously defended their amateur status of the time as a means of keeping the working man out of sport, because if there was one thing the upper classes hated in those days it was mingling with the plebs. Are we in danger of recreating those conditions today? I get the impression that the profile of a typical inter-county player is looking increasingly white collar. A lot of teachers, police, and professional types are now filling the ranks of county panels. This might be partly because society is becoming more white collar as the service sector becomes a bigger employer, but if you're a truck driver who works long hours or a builder who doesn't have as much energy to train at the end of a hard day, your chances of getting on a county panel are a whole lot slimmer than a civil servant who knocks off at 5 and has the whole weekend to himself. Is that fair on the working man? Could we be missing out on some great talent?
I'm all in favour of the amateur status and the great social capital that it generates, but we have to bear in mind that it has advantages and disadvantages too.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 29, 2014, 08:59:40 PM
Good thread.
I think we have to remember that there are limits to what you can do with an amateur sport. The public might have an appetite for games every night of the week that they can watch on TV and played in opulent stadiums under floodlights. But amateur players have a lot on their plate and they can only spend so much time training, competing, and the small matter of all the time they have to spend driving around between all of this on top of the day job. So we maintain the tradition of playing on a Sunday when we know everyone will be available to play.
Who is to blame for the escalating workload on inter-county players? "Blame" is a bit of a loaded word, it implies that somebody somewhere is doing something wrong, but people can only work inside the system they're given. My view is that all high profile spectator sports have a certain competitive impetus.
- Teams need sponsors to keep paying the bills.
- Sponsors need good value for money to make it worth their while.
- In a knockout competition, good value for sponsors means the team staying in the competition longer.
- Team needs to make bigger demands of players to keep them in the competition for longer to justify the sponsorship deal and increase the chances of renewal.
The result is an arms race between teams. If your opponents are training two nights a week, you'll bump your own training up to three nights a week. In response, they bump their training up to four nights a week. Up and up it goes until the calendar is full and every available second of a player's life is full of GAA-related activity. Player burnout is sure to follow, and inter-county careers are getting shorter and shorter.
Something else to bear in mind about the amateur status is that its intention is to ensure that the game isn't corrupted by money. But Michael Cusack's original vision for sport was that the working man should be allowed to play. In his day, only "gentlemen" played sports. Organisations like the RFU and FA rigorously defended their amateur status of the time as a means of keeping the working man out of sport, because if there was one thing the upper classes hated in those days it was mingling with the plebs. Are we in danger of recreating those conditions today? I get the impression that the profile of a typical inter-county player is looking increasingly white collar. A lot of teachers, police, and professional types are now filling the ranks of county panels. This might be partly because society is becoming more white collar as the service sector becomes a bigger employer, but if you're a truck driver who works long hours or a builder who doesn't have as much energy to train at the end of a hard day, your chances of getting on a county panel are a whole lot slimmer than a civil servant who knocks off at 5 and has the whole weekend to himself. Is that fair on the working man? Could we be missing out on some great talent?
I'm all in favour of the amateur status and the great social capital that it generates, but we have to bear in mind that it has advantages and disadvantages too.
I don't know too many of them
I know of club teams are the minute who are training 3 times a week (November) for the season next year, I think their first league game is in April. Surely this is completely over the top, this is club nevermind County.
The motivation and commitment shown by gues slogging it out 5 days a week knowing in the heart of hearts they won't win anything this year is admirable. The managers pick up their pay (some of a per sessions basis) regardless
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
Paid managers (and their entourages) are almost certainly the the source cause of overtraining.
Think about this:
If you're paid per session, it's in your interests to fit in as many group sessions as possible.
If you're paid per week/month, it's in your interests to make the season as long as possible, and the only way to ensure that is to start earlier.
If you're an ambitious manager, you will want to gain a reputation for attention to detail and for getting teams fit, which means more sessions, tougher sessions, more detail.
The real problem for me is that a large part of this additional training is little more than nonsense, justified by an insistence that it delivers the "2%" that makes all the difference when otherwise evenly matched with an opponent.
Ironically, when Kerry won the biggest prize in our sport last year, it was the basic antithesis of this theory. They won the AI not because of a series of gradual improvements, but as a result of the changes they applied for the final four weeks of the season. First they stopped playing silly buggers with Kieran Donaghy's role in the team, then secondly when between the SF and final, they went for an all-out defensive shape. Almost every tactical discussion prior to August was rendered obsolete by these changes.
As for fitness, an athletic man in his twenties doesn't need six months to get to peak fitness. He doesn't even need three months. Obviously everyone is different - there are those of us who put on weight a little easier - but the overwhelming majority of men who are committed to playing football surely wouldn't need more than a month to get core fitness up to scratch, and it's a fine-tuning exercise from there. These are committed athletes we're talking about, not lads being dragged from the pub on a Sunday morning.
If there was actually any substance in the thinking behind these elongated pre-seasons, then surely any leg injury that sees a 3+ weeks absence during a season, would result in an insurmountable deficit in the fitness required to play the game.
But players who miss 3-6 weeks with calf/hamstring/groin strains, before slotting straight back into the starting XV, well they exist at every level from Junior B to Senior County. By the time the next game comes along, they'll be expected to deliver as at full fitness too.
We are though living in the era of the God-like manager, and it appears (from everything I've heard) that this is actually what the players want: just like their managers, they don't want to accept the limitations of their natural abilities, and it's all about making sure the 2% is in place.
Sooner or later though, the financial pressure of these arrangements (as we know, it's not just paying managers: it's physios, coaches, nutritionists, psychologists) is going to ruin a series of county boards and clubs. At that point we might be able to rein it in a little, when for the first time in years administrators will be able to make a stand against this (GPA-fuelled) monstrosity... without fear of looking like they're holding back their county's development. But until the bubble does a rather loud burst, we are stuck with it.
Quote from: thewobbler on December 01, 2014, 10:52:30 AM
Paid managers (and their entourages) are almost certainly the the source cause of overtraining.
Think about this:
If you're paid per session, it's in your interests to fit in as many group sessions as possible.
If you're paid per week/month, it's in your interests to make the season as long as possible, and the only way to ensure that is to start earlier.
If you're an ambitious manager, you will want to gain a reputation for attention to detail and for getting teams fit, which means more sessions, tougher sessions, more detail.
The real problem for me is that a large part of this additional training is little more than nonsense, justified by an insistence that it delivers the "2%" that makes all the difference when otherwise evenly matched with an opponent.
Ironically, when Kerry won the biggest prize in our sport last year, it was the basic antithesis of this theory. They won the AI not because of a series of gradual improvements, but as a result of the changes they applied for the final four weeks of the season. First they stopped playing silly buggers with Kieran Donaghy's role in the team, then secondly when between the SF and final, they went for an all-out defensive shape. Almost every tactical discussion prior to August was rendered obsolete by these changes.
As for fitness, an athletic man in his twenties doesn't need six months to get to peak fitness. He doesn't even need three months. Obviously everyone is different - there are those of us who put on weight a little easier - but the overwhelming majority of men who are committed to playing football surely wouldn't need more than a month to get core fitness up to scratch, and it's a fine-tuning exercise from there. These are committed athletes we're talking about, not lads being dragged from the pub on a Sunday morning.
If there was actually any substance in the thinking behind these elongated pre-seasons, then surely any leg injury that sees a 3+ weeks absence during a season, would result in an insurmountable deficit in the fitness required to play the game.
But players who miss 3-6 weeks with calf/hamstring/groin strains, before slotting straight back into the starting XV, well they exist at every level from Junior B to Senior County. By the time the next game comes along, they'll be expected to deliver as at full fitness too.
We are though living in the era of the God-like manager, and it appears (from everything I've heard) that this is actually what the players want: just like their managers, they don't want to accept the limitations of their natural abilities, and it's all about making sure the 2% is in place.
Sooner or later though, the financial pressure of these arrangements (as we know, it's not just paying managers: it's physios, coaches, nutritionists, psychologists) is going to ruin a series of county boards and clubs. At that point we might be able to rein it in a little, when for the first time in years administrators will be able to make a stand against this (GPA-fuelled) monstrosity... without fear of looking like they're holding back their county's development. But until the bubble does a rather loud burst, we are stuck with it.
I'm not agreeing with everything in this post but it's a decent starting point for a debate on the subject.
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.
This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.
Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.
That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.
Quote from: INDIANA on December 01, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.
This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.
Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.
That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.
Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 01, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.
This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.
Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.
That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.
Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!
Would the fact that so many Down lads have opted not to join the panel this year not be a case of burnout?? Marty Clarke has been working & living as a professional athlete for the last 5 odd years and even he won't commit to it. . . it's gone too far!!
Maybe so, but he just got married and has a wean on the way by all accounts.
Just getting married alone is enough to ruin a good man never mind to contend with a sprog shortly after.
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 01, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.
This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.
Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.
That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.
Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!
I'm not an S&C guru or anything remotely like it.
Secondly it's not my fault you made a silly point above. You're like the head honchos in the GAA - see no evil hear no evil.
I'm not predicting anything when it's already happening. The human body isn't designed to train 7 times a week at current intensity levels and hold down a full time job.
You don't need to be a guru to know that. But maybe you're Geezer in disguise
Quote from: screenexile on December 01, 2014, 04:00:39 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 01, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.
This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.
Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.
That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.
Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!
Would the fact that so many Down lads have opted not to join the panel this year not be a case of burnout?? Marty Clarke has been working & living as a professional athlete for the last 5 odd years and even he won't commit to it. . . it's gone too far!!
On Marty Clarke - I did hear he has some sort of health condition (can't remember what it was - but it's something that would require managing)
However I agree with the overall point that things have gone too far and SOMETHING NEEDS TO BE DONE !!!!!
I do agree that the ones pushing this are the professional getting paid on a per session basis. I know it would have close to zero chance of getting through Congress, but I'd love to see a rule that all county boards had to provide a detailed list of all payments to any individuals involved in the coaching/management of county teams.
Quote from: INDIANA on December 01, 2014, 04:11:55 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 01, 2014, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 01, 2014, 10:36:50 AM
There appears to be qute a lot of people on here talking a seriuous load of horse. On every [of the numerous] threads there has been on here about burnout I have asked for any evidence to show that players are leaving rthe game earlier than they did in the past. No one has as yet been ebale to furnish me with this evidence. I suspect that this is because it doesn't exist. Benny Coulter retiring at age 34??? after a 16 or 17 year career at senior county level is not evidence of 'burnout', I would argue that its quite the reverse.
Looking at the teams in this years AI SFC final as an example it doesnt strike me they were composed of a much younger age group than any previous group of players, and some of teir better performers have huge numbers in terms of championship appearences.
The only one talking out of their arse thus far is you.
This professional training is only in vogue a few years. The likes of Benny would only have seen maybe 5-6 years of it and he's in a better position then any of us to gauge what constitutes too much. As he played at this level.
Inter county commitments has been a 6 day a week event since the late 90s however the key factor is the load factor which is the volume and intensity of training you are doing.
That now is at breaking point. Because it is several higher in terms of intensity these days. You will see more inter county retirements in the next ten years of lads ranging from 25-28 then ever before. The evidence isn't there because the current group are the Test subjects.
Well there's no point in arguing with you then, as not only are you a S&C guru, but you can also tell the future!
I'm not an S&C guru or anything remotely like it.
Secondly it's not my fault you made a silly point above. You're like the head honchos in the GAA - see no evil hear no evil.
I'm not predicting anything when it's already happening. The human body isn't designed to train 7 times a week at current intensity levels and hold down a full time job.
You don't need to be a guru to know that. But maybe you're Geezer in disguise
Which point did I make that was silly? And if it's already happening what is the evidence of this?
I would argue that most of this desire for more training sessions comes from players
Players want to win stuff. If that means (in their heads) going back training in December for the following season then they are prepared to do it.
also, most players cannot be trusted to do their own work over the winter (according to club managers) and so a lot of clubs try to keep a squad of lads going over the winter, when really what some of them need is a break for injury prevention, or a change or focus in training.
how many clubs have ever thought about putting up a few handball courts inside a club hall and letting lads play handball for the winter to stay in shape?
or run circuit classes where the focus is on flexibility and injury prevention?
I was talking to a club player (intermediate level) on Fri evening there and he was getting ready for a fitness test that evening for his club...WTF. A fitness test in November? the league starts in 6 months!!! that's actually (IMO) uncalled for this time of the year.
Players should be keeping themselves in decent shape over the winter and training should be started in late Jan or early Feb, are club managers now trying to copy county teams? (guys need their heads looked at)
How often would an amateur swimmer train and what hours would they train?
How often would an amateur runner train and for how long?
How often does a gym monkey spend in the gym every week?
Any of the above would likely see more time than a GAA player. The difference comes when you are told when and where you must train. A GAA player could do 6 days a week no problem if it meant being able to do it at your own time of the day, in your own gym or field. As a team game though it simply has to take place mostly within the team environment. In that instance, 6 days a week becomes unworkable for an amateur.
Chairmen and committees need their heads looked at. They sanction the bullshit.
If clubs would spend the money developing their own people as coaches and investing in youth it would be more their line.
Educate the coaches/mentors, provide higher standard of coaching and development, produce better players and teams.
Clubs training now for a season that kicks of in April is absolutely mind boggling.
Coaches, Managers receiving £100-200 a week are motivated by exactly that while asking for 100% commitment in training 4/5 times a week. Gym sessions, weights sessions, conditioning, less ball work, social aspect out the window with drinks bans for months. Some change in the game in the last decade and not for the better in my opinion.
My club, who are senior, are doing a wee weights programme over the winter, no biggie. The training demands havent changed that much over the past few years as far as I can see. Players are maybe expected to get time off work for a thurs/fri night championship match and maybe a training weekend once or twice a year but in general they don't train more often or more intensively than they did before. there 's always some eejit who will be wanting to do a 6am session 3 times a week but sure....
The type of training has changed as well to reflect the changing physical aspect of the game but to say that the workload is more intense, well i don't know about that. It's more focussed certainly but running for miles uphill in a few inches of shite, trailing a big tyre, wasnt exactly easy. It might well have been the completely wrong thing to do but it was as hard, if not harder and a lot more tiring, as any training todays players do, and I know this for a fact as Ive done both types.
Every generation of players thinks they're better/harder/faster/more skillful/more committed/better trained/smarter than the ones preceding it, and as they say, paper never refused ink. I would hazard that there are similar articles like this written in every decade since Gaelic football/hurling started.
Quote from: Brick Tamlin on December 02, 2014, 10:11:38 AM
Chairmen and committees need their heads looked at. They sanction the bullshit.
If clubs would spend the money developing their own people as coaches and investing in youth it would be more their line.
Educate the coaches/mentors, provide higher standard of coaching and development, produce better players and teams.
The thing is that when you hear about clubs paying lads hundreds of Euro to manage/coach/train teams, lads doing it for free feel foolish.
You see countless lads who put in countless hours in clubs and never getting a penny and then you see parasites getting paid ridiculous amounts because they have a a reputation or have some certificate in coaching to their name.
I'd be very interested to know have the revenue ever compiled a list of club and county managers and had a bit of a look at how tax compliant they all were. The reason I ask is that I always remember Mick O'Dwyer's defence when anyone mentioned payments to managers was that he had been audited by the Revenue a number of times and they had no problem with him. Of course this was a very slick defence because when people heard him say he was in good standing with the Revenue they assumed all was kosher even though being square with the Revenue would only mean he had paid taxes on his earnings, not that he hadn't received any earnings or was complying with the GAA's rules on payments. Any reasonable accountant would have no problem making sure that any extra payments on top of mileage allowance were fully tax compliant no matter how large they were.
I'd love to see a rule that said the same rules apply to managers and coaches as apply to players - you have to be a member of a club and if you want to transfer between clubs the same rules as for players apply. Rather than lining these expensive managers/coaches, think about how much more money clubs would have on spending on improving facilities/providing gear for underage teams.
Quote from: Down Follower on December 02, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
How often would an amateur swimmer train and what hours would they train?
How often would an amateur runner train and for how long?
How often does a gym monkey spend in the gym every week?
Any of the above would likely see more time than a GAA player. The difference comes when you are told when and where you must train. A GAA player could do 6 days a week no problem if it meant being able to do it at your own time of the day, in your own gym or field. As a team game though it simply has to take place mostly within the team environment. In that instance, 6 days a week becomes unworkable for an amateur.
I read these posts and I just yawn ........
Swimming is a non weight bearing exercise comparing it to GAA is like comparing tag rugby to professional rugby.
Load factor !
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 02, 2014, 11:19:11 AM
My club, who are senior, are doing a wee weights programme over the winter, no biggie. The training demands havent changed that much over the past few years as far as I can see. Players are maybe expected to get time off work for a thurs/fri night championship match and maybe a training weekend once or twice a year but in general they don't train more often or more intensively than they did before. there 's always some eejit who will be wanting to do a 6am session 3 times a week but sure....
The type of training has changed as well to reflect the changing physical aspect of the game but to say that the workload is more intense, well i don't know about that. It's more focussed certainly but running for miles uphill in a few inches of shite, trailing a big tyre, wasnt exactly easy. It might well have been the completely wrong thing to do but it was as hard, if not harder and a lot more tiring, as any training todays players do, and I know this for a fact as Ive done both types.
Every generation of players thinks they're better/harder/faster/more skillful/more committed/better trained/smarter than the ones preceding it, and as they say, paper never refused ink. I would hazard that there are similar articles like this written in every decade since Gaelic football/hurling started.
The current generation are the best athletes to play the game. That's a statistical fact.
The speed of the game is unparalleled . It takes longer to recover from a match . If a player plays for a number of teams and had to train with all of them he burns out very quickly
It's very simple. The current structure is unsustainable and comparing it to non weight bearing sports, amateur runners or otherwise really is bizarre.
Indiana,
I think the point on the individual, amateur sports people is valid to a certain extent. They enjoy the flexibility in their training that a team or GAA player won't.
While a lot do train collectively, its not the be all and end all if they don't and many often don't.
This gives them far less mental pressure to fit all in round collective sessions. A swimmer or runner, can push a session out by a hour to fuel himself or to fit a family event in or if he has to work late. A GAA player won't have this luxury.
A swimmer, weightlifter or runner will know months and months in advance what races they will be doing and can plan accordingly, peaking when they have to. A club player mightn't know when the next match is or that if he starts training in January when the championship will be.
Quote from: INDIANA on December 02, 2014, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 02, 2014, 11:19:11 AM
My club, who are senior, are doing a wee weights programme over the winter, no biggie. The training demands havent changed that much over the past few years as far as I can see. Players are maybe expected to get time off work for a thurs/fri night championship match and maybe a training weekend once or twice a year but in general they don't train more often or more intensively than they did before. there 's always some eejit who will be wanting to do a 6am session 3 times a week but sure....
The type of training has changed as well to reflect the changing physical aspect of the game but to say that the workload is more intense, well i don't know about that. It's more focussed certainly but running for miles uphill in a few inches of shite, trailing a big tyre, wasnt exactly easy. It might well have been the completely wrong thing to do but it was as hard, if not harder and a lot more tiring, as any training todays players do, and I know this for a fact as Ive done both types.
Every generation of players thinks they're better/harder/faster/more skillful/more committed/better trained/smarter than the ones preceding it, and as they say, paper never refused ink. I would hazard that there are similar articles like this written in every decade since Gaelic football/hurling started.
The current generation are the best athletes to play the game. That's a statistical fact.
The speed of the game is unparalleled . It takes longer to recover from a match . If a player plays for a number of teams and had to train with all of them he burns out very quickly
It's very simple. The current structure is unsustainable and comparing it to non weight bearing sports, amateur runners or otherwise really is bizarre.
The evidence I have offered is anecdotal, and I haven't claimed anything different.
You on the other hand are making grand pronouncements, [as indeed have many other commentators such as the author of the piece that inspired this thread], and then proclaiming them as fact!!!
Can you provide one single piece of empirical evidence to back up any of the statements you have made above??? [not that I disagree with everything you have said.]
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 02, 2014, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 02, 2014, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 02, 2014, 11:19:11 AM
My club, who are senior, are doing a wee weights programme over the winter, no biggie. The training demands havent changed that much over the past few years as far as I can see. Players are maybe expected to get time off work for a thurs/fri night championship match and maybe a training weekend once or twice a year but in general they don't train more often or more intensively than they did before. there 's always some eejit who will be wanting to do a 6am session 3 times a week but sure....
The type of training has changed as well to reflect the changing physical aspect of the game but to say that the workload is more intense, well i don't know about that. It's more focussed certainly but running for miles uphill in a few inches of shite, trailing a big tyre, wasnt exactly easy. It might well have been the completely wrong thing to do but it was as hard, if not harder and a lot more tiring, as any training todays players do, and I know this for a fact as Ive done both types.
Every generation of players thinks they're better/harder/faster/more skillful/more committed/better trained/smarter than the ones preceding it, and as they say, paper never refused ink. I would hazard that there are similar articles like this written in every decade since Gaelic football/hurling started.
The current generation are the best athletes to play the game. That's a statistical fact.
The speed of the game is unparalleled . It takes longer to recover from a match . If a player plays for a number of teams and had to train with all of them he burns out very quickly
It's very simple. The current structure is unsustainable and comparing it to non weight bearing sports, amateur runners or otherwise really is bizarre.
The evidence I have offered is anecdotal, and I haven't claimed anything different.
You on the other hand are making grand pronouncements, [as indeed have many other commentators such as the author of the piece that inspired this thread], and then proclaiming them as fact!!!
Can you provide one single piece of empirical evidence to back up any of the statements you have made above??? [not that I disagree with everything you have said.]
Empirical evidence of ?
Quote from: INDIANA on December 02, 2014, 02:13:22 PM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 02, 2014, 01:49:57 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on December 02, 2014, 11:37:09 AM
Quote from: Keyser soze on December 02, 2014, 11:19:11 AM
My club, who are senior, are doing a wee weights programme over the winter, no biggie. The training demands havent changed that much over the past few years as far as I can see. Players are maybe expected to get time off work for a thurs/fri night championship match and maybe a training weekend once or twice a year but in general they don't train more often or more intensively than they did before. there 's always some eejit who will be wanting to do a 6am session 3 times a week but sure....
The type of training has changed as well to reflect the changing physical aspect of the game but to say that the workload is more intense, well i don't know about that. It's more focussed certainly but running for miles uphill in a few inches of shite, trailing a big tyre, wasnt exactly easy. It might well have been the completely wrong thing to do but it was as hard, if not harder and a lot more tiring, as any training todays players do, and I know this for a fact as Ive done both types.
Every generation of players thinks they're better/harder/faster/more skillful/more committed/better trained/smarter than the ones preceding it, and as they say, paper never refused ink. I would hazard that there are similar articles like this written in every decade since Gaelic football/hurling started.
1. The current generation are the best athletes to play the game. That's a statistical fact.
2. The speed of the game is unparalleled .
3. It takes longer to recover from a match .
4. If a player plays for a number of teams and had to train with all of them he burns out very quickly
It's very simple.
5. The current structure is unsustainable
and comparing it to non weight bearing sports, amateur runners or otherwise really is bizarre.
The evidence I have offered is anecdotal, and I haven't claimed anything different.
You on the other hand are making grand pronouncements, [as indeed have many other commentators such as the author of the piece that inspired this thread], and then proclaiming them as fact!!!
Can you provide one single piece of empirical evidence to back up any of the statements you have made above??? [not that I disagree with everything you have said.]
Empirical evidence of ?
I've numbered them 1-5 above.
Quote from: INDIANA on December 02, 2014, 11:25:17 AM
Quote from: Down Follower on December 02, 2014, 10:10:39 AM
How often would an amateur swimmer train and what hours would they train?
How often would an amateur runner train and for how long?
How often does a gym monkey spend in the gym every week?
Any of the above would likely see more time than a GAA player. The difference comes when you are told when and where you must train. A GAA player could do 6 days a week no problem if it meant being able to do it at your own time of the day, in your own gym or field. As a team game though it simply has to take place mostly within the team environment. In that instance, 6 days a week becomes unworkable for an amateur.
I read these posts and I just yawn ........
Swimming is a non weight bearing exercise comparing it to GAA is like comparing tag rugby to professional rugby.
Load factor !
Talk about missing the point!!!
Quote from: Bingo on December 02, 2014, 11:48:06 AM
Indiana,
I think the point on the individual, amateur sports people is valid to a certain extent. They enjoy the flexibility in their training that a team or GAA player won't.
While a lot do train collectively, its not the be all and end all if they don't and many often don't.
This gives them far less mental pressure to fit all in round collective sessions. A swimmer or runner, can push a session out by a hour to fuel himself or to fit a family event in or if he has to work late. A GAA player won't have this luxury.
A swimmer, weightlifter or runner will know months and months in advance what races they will be doing and can plan accordingly, peaking when they have to. A club player mightn't know when the next match is or that if he starts training in January when the championship will be.
Exactly, the flexibilty of individual training as opposed to training in a team environment definatly magnify the effort needed.( although training collectivly can have a positive effect from a motivational point of view)
Whats the story with the training ban?
I thought counties were banned from training in November & december?
Do they not bother with that rule or is it just unenforceable?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 03, 2014, 12:26:31 PM
Whats the story with the training ban?
I thought counties were banned from training in November & december?
Do they not bother with that rule or is it just unenforceable?
I believe the ban is on collective training, ways and means around that and it's no more than a token gesture. Sure some Counties will be playing challenge games soon.
I thought it was changed and it was based on when you were put out of the Championship? So first team out of Championship are allowed back now but Kerry and Donegal are still to wait
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 03, 2014, 12:26:31 PM
Whats the story with the training ban?
I thought counties were banned from training in November & december?
Do they not bother with that rule or is it just unenforceable?
If you were knocked out of the Championship early enough you're allowed to start back in November!
Quote
Renowned fitness coach Mike McGurn says high-level GAA players are making too many sacrifices.
McGurn is currently involved with the Antrim senior set-up but has previously worked in a variety of sports, including soccer, rugby and boxing, told the Irish News there is too much focus on abstinence in the GAA.
There has to be a balance. There is too much made of this abstinence and this priest-like existence. There has to be balance because you've only one life.
He contended that players in both rugby league and rugby union – two sports in which he worked – had a better balance. They worked like crazy but they knew how to enjoy themselves.
There is too much abstinence in the GAA compared to other sports – and I'm not just talking about drink. I'm talking about nights out and going to restaurants and going on a holiday. Paul O'Connell wouldn't have survived until 35 without having time off.
The argument he makes is almost diametrically opposed to that put forward by Stephen Hunt at the weekend who indicated that GAA players were not near as monkish in their discipline as those involved in English football.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 04, 2014, 11:10:41 AM
Quote
Renowned fitness coach Mike McGurn says high-level GAA players are making too many sacrifices.
McGurn is currently involved with the Antrim senior set-up but has previously worked in a variety of sports, including soccer, rugby and boxing, told the Irish News there is too much focus on abstinence in the GAA.
There has to be a balance. There is too much made of this abstinence and this priest-like existence. There has to be balance because you’ve only one life.
He contended that players in both rugby league and rugby union – two sports in which he worked – had a better balance. They worked like crazy but they knew how to enjoy themselves.
There is too much abstinence in the GAA compared to other sports – and I’m not just talking about drink. I’m talking about nights out and going to restaurants and going on a holiday. Paul O’Connell wouldn’t have survived until 35 without having time off.
The argument he makes is almost diametrically opposed to that put forward by Stephen Hunt at the weekend who indicated that GAA players were not near as monkish in their discipline as those involved in English football.
Refreshing to see some common sense being quoted.
Quote from: Bensars on December 04, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 04, 2014, 11:10:41 AM
Quote
Renowned fitness coach Mike McGurn says high-level GAA players are making too many sacrifices.
McGurn is currently involved with the Antrim senior set-up but has previously worked in a variety of sports, including soccer, rugby and boxing, told the Irish News there is too much focus on abstinence in the GAA.
There has to be a balance. There is too much made of this abstinence and this priest-like existence. There has to be balance because you've only one life.
He contended that players in both rugby league and rugby union – two sports in which he worked – had a better balance. They worked like crazy but they knew how to enjoy themselves.
There is too much abstinence in the GAA compared to other sports – and I'm not just talking about drink. I'm talking about nights out and going to restaurants and going on a holiday. Paul O'Connell wouldn't have survived until 35 without having time off.
The argument he makes is almost diametrically opposed to that put forward by Stephen Hunt at the weekend who indicated that GAA players were not near as monkish in their discipline as those involved in English football.
Refreshing to see some common sense being quoted.
Yeah it probably is common sense but I'd say based on previous experience that Mike's more worried about the money he's fleecing of the GAA clubs and County Boards than players being tired ::)
Quote from: illdecide on December 04, 2014, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Bensars on December 04, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 04, 2014, 11:10:41 AM
Quote
Renowned fitness coach Mike McGurn says high-level GAA players are making too many sacrifices.
McGurn is currently involved with the Antrim senior set-up but has previously worked in a variety of sports, including soccer, rugby and boxing, told the Irish News there is too much focus on abstinence in the GAA.
There has to be a balance. There is too much made of this abstinence and this priest-like existence. There has to be balance because you've only one life.
He contended that players in both rugby league and rugby union – two sports in which he worked – had a better balance. They worked like crazy but they knew how to enjoy themselves.
There is too much abstinence in the GAA compared to other sports – and I'm not just talking about drink. I'm talking about nights out and going to restaurants and going on a holiday. Paul O'Connell wouldn't have survived until 35 without having time off.
The argument he makes is almost diametrically opposed to that put forward by Stephen Hunt at the weekend who indicated that GAA players were not near as monkish in their discipline as those involved in English football.
Refreshing to see some common sense being quoted.
Yeah it probably is common sense but I'd say based on previous experience that Mike's more worried about the money he's fleecing of the GAA clubs and County Boards than players being tired ::)
Antrim are only doing 2 sessions a week and the country lads don't even have to travel to the city- they do the gym sessions at home.
Refreshing to see a bit of common sense here instead of the madness in other counties. Antrim will be peaking at the right time.
Quote from: orangeman on December 04, 2014, 09:45:12 PM
Quote from: illdecide on December 04, 2014, 12:51:02 PM
Quote from: Bensars on December 04, 2014, 12:28:55 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on December 04, 2014, 11:10:41 AM
Quote
Renowned fitness coach Mike McGurn says high-level GAA players are making too many sacrifices.
McGurn is currently involved with the Antrim senior set-up but has previously worked in a variety of sports, including soccer, rugby and boxing, told the Irish News there is too much focus on abstinence in the GAA.
There has to be a balance. There is too much made of this abstinence and this priest-like existence. There has to be balance because you've only one life.
He contended that players in both rugby league and rugby union – two sports in which he worked – had a better balance. They worked like crazy but they knew how to enjoy themselves.
There is too much abstinence in the GAA compared to other sports – and I'm not just talking about drink. I'm talking about nights out and going to restaurants and going on a holiday. Paul O'Connell wouldn't have survived until 35 without having time off.
The argument he makes is almost diametrically opposed to that put forward by Stephen Hunt at the weekend who indicated that GAA players were not near as monkish in their discipline as those involved in English football.
Refreshing to see some common sense being quoted.
Yeah it probably is common sense but I'd say based on previous experience that Mike's more worried about the money he's fleecing of the GAA clubs and County Boards than players being tired ::)
Antrim are only doing 2 sessions a week and the country lads don't even have to travel to the city- they do the gym sessions at home.
Refreshing to see a bit of common sense here instead of the madness in other counties. Antrim will be peaking at the right time.
f**k if that's the case maybe Antrim you do the opposite and train like dogs!
When do Antrim peak by the way?
In and around The Auld Lammas Fair
ClubRossie had Mick O'Dwyer as special guest at the annual awards do last weekend ( hope the annual sub doesn't have to go up too much next year ;)).
He doesn't believe in all this modern training at all " Run the daylights out of players and get them fit, and their confidence will grow with their fitness". He bemoans all the injuries nowadays caused by " this running today around bollards and these sticks, kippins as I call them is causing it. It would sicken you". Also "I'm not into this tactics - tactics here, gyms there, physiotherapists, doctors,...."
He did make one good point anyway - "You have to keep training with the ball.... for God's sake don't go outside the door without a ball in your hand"
Quote from: Rossfan on December 05, 2014, 11:17:35 AM
ClubRossie had Mick O'Dwyer as special guest at the annual awards do last weekend ( hope the annual sub doesn't have to go up too much next year ;)).
He doesn't believe in all this modern training at all " Run the daylights out of players and get them fit, and their confidence will grow with their fitness". He bemoans all the injuries nowadays caused by " this running today around bollards and these sticks, kippins as I call them is causing it. It would sicken you". Also "I'm not into this tactics - tactics here, gyms there, physiotherapists, doctors,...."
He did make one good point anyway - "You have to keep training with the ball.... for God's sake don't go outside the door without a ball in your hand"
I heard the same at another dinner dance recently, a former great bemoaning the current training methods
The problem is, if they were in their prime and playing or managing a team in the current climate they'd be doing the same themselves. Every manager tries to get an edge or advantage from the latest fad.
And Micko is ignoring the scientific evidence which says that short intense sprint work is far better for fitness than endless running.
A good investment for any player would be a football, and kick it off a wall at every opportunity
Are there any or many examples of lads refusing to join county panels or taking part in trials due to the perceived level of commitment required to be county footballer ?.
The talk of 5/6 sessions a week you'd imagine is putting some lads off.
Galway's Sean Armstrong the latest to retire at the tender age of 29 due to the increasing commitments involved and time consumption of modern day inter-county football.
This thread getting a mention in the Irish News today by Phillip Jordan. Looks like hes in agreement.
Quote from: Muzz on December 18, 2014, 11:27:30 AM
This thread getting a mention in the Irish News today by Phillip Jordan. Looks like hes in agreement.
Coming from an ex County Player of his ilk (not his fault he's from Tyrone!) that speaks volumes.
I also think the increase in training, time consumption, gym work, commitment is intrinsically linked to the payment of managers.
Quote from: Muzz on December 18, 2014, 11:27:30 AM
This thread getting a mention in the Irish News today by Phillip Jordan. Looks like hes in agreement.
Got a link? Or is it paywalled?
Quote from: orangeman on December 06, 2014, 11:05:57 PM
Are there any or many examples of lads refusing to join county panels or taking part in trials due to the perceived level of commitment required to be county footballer ?.
The talk of 5/6 sessions a week you'd imagine is putting some lads off.
I was talking to someone from Kerry about this and they said there was more than one individual in Kerry this year who opted out/couldn't commit of the panel. Would have been fringe panel members but still.
It's not something that lads announce or is likely to get much publicity but I reckon that there is a substantial number who've opted out of the intercounty game.
Far too many players retiring from 29-33 in intercounty football these days, some drop down to club football and play one season but realising that club training is what county training used to be like, the demands on both are ridiculous. I know a good few clubs in Derry out training on the pitch already, for a league that starts in April. Madness.
Another good article with insight from the physio. The Maldini plan in Munster is interesting.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/burnout-reaches-breaking-point-30865612.html
Quote from: orangeman on December 28, 2014, 09:13:46 AM
Another good article with insight from the physio. The Maldini plan in Munster is interesting.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/burnout-reaches-breaking-point-30865612.html
Should put it into the Hastings Cup thread - would be a good education for some
The training demands are crazy now. Waterford hurlers played 3 challenge matches in December and were back training for a good while before that. It used be that the year kicked off in January but now there is hardly any closed season. Players are getting no off season in some cases and recurring injuries are being picked up. It's no wonder players are opting off panels or retiring at relatively early ages.
Quote from: INDIANA on December 28, 2014, 11:53:29 AM
Quote from: orangeman on December 28, 2014, 09:13:46 AM
Another good article with insight from the physio. The Maldini plan in Munster is interesting.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/burnout-reaches-breaking-point-30865612.html
Should put it into the Hastings Cup thread - would be a good education for some
That's the magic cure - ban the Hastings cup ::)
the way the inter county season is structured is to blame for this very early start for county training
the likes of FBD league, Kehoe Cup, Walsh Shield etc should be done away with then teams wouldn't need to train for an early January start
then you have the championship starting at different dates for each county (due to imbalances in the draw) and some crazy scheduling (eg Connacht)
which means teams (and some silly managers) have to plan differently for the championship season
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on December 29, 2014, 04:50:37 PM
the way the inter county season is structured is to blame for this very early start for county training
the likes of FBD league, Kehoe Cup, Walsh Shield etc should be done away with then teams wouldn't need to train for an early January start
then you have the championship starting at different dates for each county (due to imbalances in the draw) and some crazy scheduling (eg Connacht)
which means teams (and some silly managers) have to plan differently for the championship season
The only way to stop the madness is to combine the league and championship and scrap the subsidiary competitions. Enforce a proper closed season by actively sanctioning counties heavily for breaching the rules.
Its not that difficult to do but the GAA don't have balls for the fight unfortunately. Currently the tail wags the dog whereby the counties run the association.
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/football/coach-warns-of-doomsday-scenario-for-over-trained-gaa-playersnbsp-305335.html
By Jackie Cahill
A top strength and conditioning coach fears training demands placed on leading GAA players are "not sustainable."
Alan O'Connor, currently working alongside Wexford senior football manager David Power, predicts a doomsday scenario unless the situation is addressed.
O'Connor was involved with Loughmore-Castleiney as the Tipperary dual stars won three county senior titles in just two seasons.
Loughmore won an historic dual double in 2013 and retained their football crown last year but a fixtures pile-up meant that the champions had to replay their county SFC final on St Stephen's Day, 2014.
O'Connor also served as strength and conditioning coach with Tipperary's All-Ireland minor football winning team of 2011, when Power was in charge.
A year later, Tipp retained their Munster crown as the minor hurlers captured provincial and All-Ireland minor glory. Twelve dual players were involved with both teams but massive success was still achieved, with O'Connor citing healthy communication at the time with hurling counterpart Keith Hennessy, who worked with the Waterford senior hurlers last year, as a major factor.
But O'Connor revealed how, while working with the Tipp U21 footballers last year, he told some players not to train when they detailed training patterns over the last week.
And he said: "The talent pool will be there but players are not going to achieve their full potential. And this is the time of year when the damage is done. A parent came to me in 2011 and said 'you're not training the team hard enough.' "I was dealing with eight dual players at the time. I said 'look, I have a plan in my head, don't worry, things will work out.' He came to me after we won the All-Ireland and said 'now I see what you're doing.'
"It's not what I did with Tipp in 2011 — it's what I didn't do. I didn't flog them and with the dual players, we did not physically run them. Everything was with a ball."
O'Connor added: "Around July 2012, we conducted a counter-movement jump test with a player to measure the power in his legs.
"It showed that he was 20% lower than what he was eight weeks previously in a fitness test. We gave that player two weeks off. He came back to us then and was back to that previous level.
"At inter-county, it's very easy to periodise your training. You know the dates your playing and you can macrocycle the whole year. The mesoscyle is 2-6 weeks and within that, you microcycle for one week. But when you're involved with a club, and the way fixtures are gone, you can only microcycle. It's very hard for the club player. There's a rule where an U16 can't play U21. Surely a minor shouldn't be allowed to play senior with his club."
O'Connor warned: "The situation is not sustainable. Even as a coach, you would be burned out. The county board doesn't realise and people don't realise that it's not just about being on the pitch for an hour.
"It's what you have to do away from the pitch. You have to talk to the other conditioning coaches, particularly at minor level, and talk to the manager and physios. The physio and conditioning coach must work hand in hand because the physio dictates when a guy comes back on the pitch and what he can do. If you leave a player come back on his own, he will bust himself."
© Irish Examiner Ltd. All rights reserved
'Doomsday scenario'.
Good to see nobody's losing the run of themselves anyway.
Glennon had three hours' sleep before Meath game
http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229747 (http://hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229747)
'Players are little more now than indentured slaves' - Brolly
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229753 (http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229753)
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 06, 2015, 09:45:57 PM
'Players are little more now than indentured slaves' - Brolly
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229753 (http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229753)
He's dead right too. I mean who the hell really enjoys playing inter county anymore.
There is more to life then playing in Croke Park. Likes of Mc Geeney doesn't understand that
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2015, 05:09:44 PM
'Doomsday scenario'.
Good to see nobody's losing the run of themselves anyway.
Its out of control Jinxy. Tom Cribben was lamenting his side's lack of confidence in front of goal and yet he trains them at 7am on a frozen pitch on the Wednesday morning before it.
Its laughable. You'd wonder who really advises managers out there how to train teams. Quite often the tail wags the dog. I know of several fitness professionals who have worked with inter county teams who advised managers they were over-training their teams only to be over-ruled.
They subsequently found out the manager was being paid by the training sessions!!
The point that everyone realises is that all these inter county players are in a privileged position. There are hundreds upon hundreds of lads out there who would bite their hand off to be in their position.
You Lucky, Lucky Bastards!
(http://roopost.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/life_brian_dungeon.jpg)
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 06, 2015, 11:06:22 PM
The point that everyone realises is that all these inter county players are in a privileged position. There are hundreds upon hundreds of lads out there who would bite their hand off to be in their position.
You Lucky, Lucky b**tards!
(http://roopost.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/life_brian_dungeon.jpg)
There is nothing lucky about postponing your career, denying yourself promotions and ensuring you will need knee or hip replacements in your 40's. In my opinion anyway. Your view to me is from a bygone era. They were the priviledged ones when you had a life outside the GAA. Now you can't have one to play at inter county level.
All considering 24 out of 32 teams have zero chance of winning anything either. Its commendable that it's lasted this long
Quote from: INDIANA on January 06, 2015, 10:39:53 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 06, 2015, 05:09:44 PM
'Doomsday scenario'.
Good to see nobody's losing the run of themselves anyway.
Its out of control Jinxy. Tom Cribben was lamenting his side's lack of confidence in front of goal and yet he trains them at 7am on a frozen pitch on the Wednesday morning before it.
Its laughable. You'd wonder who really advises managers out there how to train teams. Quite often the tail wags the dog. I know of several fitness professionals who have worked with inter county teams who advised managers they were over-training their teams only to be over-ruled.
They subsequently found out the manager was being paid by the training sessions!!
I happen to know one of the westmeath u21s who were also training with the senior team that morning and he told me they didnt even get a cup of tea afterwards. That particular morning the roads around Kinnegad and westmeath in general were very dangerous, some common sense is going to have to take over soon.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 06, 2015, 11:11:33 PM
Quote from: From the Bunker on January 06, 2015, 11:06:22 PM
The point that everyone realises is that all these inter county players are in a privileged position. There are hundreds upon hundreds of lads out there who would bite their hand off to be in their position.
You Lucky, Lucky b**tards!
(http://roopost.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/life_brian_dungeon.jpg)
There is nothing lucky about postponing your career, denying yourself promotions and ensuring you will need knee or hip replacements in your 40's. In my opinion anyway. Your view to me is from a bygone era. They were the priviledged ones when you had a life outside the GAA. Now you can't have one to play at inter county level.
All considering 24 out of 32 teams have zero chance of winning anything either. Its commendable that it's lasted this long
thats if you're full time with Dublin. Derry for example have dentists in the team, others training to be doctors and other top end professional jobs as well as business owners etc . Would love to have worn the senior county jersey....absolute privilege to represent your county. Hope some year by young buck does
Professor Moyna's view on under 21s and Sigerson cup
Somewhere in there is a happy medium, but who will cry 'halt' to the burnout syndrome in Gaelic football and 'go, go, go' to our schoolchildren?
Professor Niall Moyna of the Centre for Preventive Medicine in Dublin City University was among the attendees at the launch of the 2015 Schools Fitness Challenge sponsored by Aviva Health at the Aviva Stadium yesterday.
Moyna is well known in GAA circles and is manager of the DCU football team.
He is in favour of the Schools Fitness Challenge which last year involved 13,067 students - 7,242 boys and 5,825 girls from the 26 counties in a successful participation over the six weeks of the Challenge.
"The research clearly shows the danger of poor levels of aerobic fitness, with 15-year-olds already showing signs of early onset heart disease," he said.
On the GAA front, Moyna revealed a conversation he had with one of his young footballers on Monday night, something which should be a warning to Association officialdom to wake up and decide to get serious about the ongoing burnout situation.
Competitive
" I talked to a young lad last night after training, and I said to him, 'look, I want to see you playing into your late 20s, but if you continue what you're doing, you won't be playing when you're 24," he said.
"He's a phenomenal young talent, but he's being asked to train with U-21s, senior team, DCU Sigerson team, his club team, and he's trying to please everyone."
DCU are a competitive college in sport, but for the last four years, Moyna has banned strength and conditioning training for his footballers, because they do so much of that work with their counties.
He is also open to change, even with the blue riband of third-level colleges' football, the Sigerson Cup.
The problem remains, as it has for so long, with the rigid adherence to an outdated fixture list which takes no account of modern life and the stresses imposed on amateur players, particularly U-21s.
"If you put on a competition, you can't blame managers for getting players ready, and you can't blame players for playing, so it's the competition structure which is the problem," he said.
Moyna highlights the rise in competitiveness of the League as a relatively new trend, with more preparation than ever before going into the early part of the season by virtually all counties.
The professor believes that teams display fitness levels close to championship level in the League.
That's great for supporters and great for the sponsors, Allianz, and the GAA, but it comes at a cost, because effectively players have to hit a strong peak for the League, and rise again for championship.
Pressure
"Because there's so much effort going into the National League, it's putting enormous pressure on U-21 and Sigerson players," he said. "In the past managers didn't really care, because it was 'only ' the National League.
"Now it's absolutely huge, so I think from that perspective, that's where the calendar really has to change - and is there a need for both U-21 and the Sigerson?
"I think that's another hard question that needs to be asked because you're calling on the same group of guys."
The solution has to come from a strong core of leadership that is prepared to make the tough calls, and stick with them.
"They've really got to decide whether they're going to take this on once and for all because we're not the Association we were 30 or 40 years ago," said Moyna.
"The championship should be combined with the League and it should be finished at the end of August.
"And with the amount of preparation that teams are putting in, they should get more games, because the ratio is something like 12 or 13 training sessions per game and that's just ridiculous. No other sport does that."
More and more of the 'older' footballers from 29 - 34 age group now see it as a burden rather than a privilege. When it starts to impact your family time and work as it has done in recent years with the unreal commitment required these days then I think it's gone too far. As I've said previously, club commitment is somewhere similar to what county was not too long ago, intercounty commitment has reached new levels, boys not being able to celebrate championship wins, out training in November / December, early morning sessions, double sessions, personalised strength and conditioning sessions in between training.
The social aspect is gone, weddings in the summer are a no go, stag dos well forget about them completely unless in December, the sacrifice is surreal and GAA players surely look at the likes of the rugby boys who enjoy a beer after their games, even in the world-cup soccer players enjoyed a drink in between some games yet we have drink bans for month. Enough is enough.
Introduce a rule whereby you cannot play Sigerson if you are training with a senior intercounty squad.
This would give sub-elite players a chance to play football with their college.
It would also reduce the scholarship merry-go-round as there's no point recruiting someone who won't be able to play for you.
It's unhealthy to have lads going to a college, or staying in college, just to play football.
Who would object to this?
And don't give me this "But the players will want to play Sigerson, think of the great memories they'll have etc."
It's high time we started protecting the players from themselves.
I full agree with Brolly by the way in terms of the GPA being the primary cause of the current mess.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 10:54:18 AM
Introduce a rule whereby you cannot play Sigerson if you are training with a senior intercounty squad.
This would give sub-elite players a chance to play football with their college.
It would also reduce the scholarship merry-go-round as there's no point recruiting someone who won't be able to play for you.
It's unhealthy to have lads going to a college, or staying in college, just to play football.
Who would object to this?
And don't give me this "But the players will want to play Sigerson, think of the great memories they'll have etc."
It's high time we started protecting the players from themselves.
I full agree with Brolly by the way in terms of the GPA being the primary cause of the current mess.
A lot of county teams would train seniors and under 21s together.
I like Indiana's idea, but maybe at a slightly higher level. If you play Senior inter County championship, you cease to be eligible for an underage grade. Obviously the calendar will mitigate the impact of this rule when you are talking about pure U21s, but a lot of 20 year olds and younger are playing senior. I think once you've moved up you should be out of the underage equation.
It would make managers think twice about using younger lads as well.
re. the Sigerson, I think it's a good tournament, but it is starting to be blown way out of proportion. At the end of the day it's a knock out competition for colleges. A small bit of realism might be beneficial here. It should be a pleasant diversion for lads attending college, rather than a massive pressure situation for them. Colleges need to stop 'building' Sigerson teams, and instead go back to fielding teams to play Sigerson. (rather than 'creating a team *for* Sigerson).
Finally, I think they should not enter the O'Byrne/McKenna/FBD/McGrath Cups. No need for it. Is there still a third level league? If so, let them use that.
I think bringing in a rule that once you play adult county championship, you are ineligible for underage grades, reducing the perceived importance of the Sigerson, and reducing the amount of games the college teams play would be a good start.
The county season needs dramatically shortened which in return will also allow the club championship run off in the calendar year,as well as a decent club season in the whole.
From talking to plenty of people I haven't heard anyone not agree with the fact that ther needs to be a radical overhaul of the fixtures from the top down and yet those that matter at the top continue to bury their head in the sand and do nothing.
Brollys interview on Newstalk sums up everything brilliantly and highlights the pressures on players now. They are pawns in the top brass' continued quest for revenue generation before player welfare. When will they say enough is enough?
Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
From talking to plenty of people I haven't heard anyone not agree with the fact that ther needs to be a radical overhaul of the fixtures from the top down and yet those that matter at the top continue to bury their head in the sand and do nothing.
Brollys interview on Newstalk sums up everything brilliantly and highlights the pressures on players now. They are pawns in the top brass' continued quest for revenue generation before player welfare. When will they say enough is enough?
It's a tricky one in fairness. The ethos of the GAA is an amateur, volunteer, organisation. However even amateur, volunteer organisations need cash to provide facilities, look after players, etc. In order to do that, you need a business model, run by business men. The problem with that is the business men will be focused on maximising revenue and revenue streams, and unless you have strong leadership which continues to steer the ship by the central tenants of the association, you end up with this sort of bastardised model we currently have, which to my mind is being driven by commercial motivations. Possibly a clear case of the tail wagging the dog.
Do we have enough money? If not, what is enough? And what do we sacrifice to get more money? At the moment a lot of people would argue that every decision is motivated by the potential financial return. I don't necessarily agree with that, but I do think it is a major driving force.
I don't mean this to be a divisive statement by any means, but if we take a couple of areas as examples, I think you can clearly see where income, and profit, is the main motivation behind the current position or status quo. some of these things I agree with, some I disagree with, but I think it points to what is setting the agenda in Croke Park.
1 - Games in Croke Park, especially featuring the Dubs.
2 - Huge investment in Dublin games development in hurling and football, vis a vis investment in other counties.
3 - The current Qualifier system in football.
4 - The American Football in Croke Park in August/September.
I'm not taking shots at Dublin at all, but I think the focus the GAA has put on Dublin is less about trying to make the Dubs competitive as it is about making the GAA a huge player in Dublin. Why, because that way you get more TV, more patrons and more media attention, all of which leads to more money. Again, is that a bad thing - moot point. I think it's right that our capital city is a stronghold of our games, but I'm not sure that's what the GAA are worried about. I think they are worried about the €s which are generated in terms of ROI. And in maximising this revenue stream, they may have unintentionally helped create a situation where there is a competitive unbalance, at least in Leinster terms. So is it worth milking the Dublin cash cow for all it can give, and speculating to accumulate, if that investment means the actual games themselves become less competitive, and arguably less attractive.
Again, it's not a shot at Dublin. If they turned around and stopped funding Dublin altogether, and ploughed millions into Kildare, or Antrim, because they felt there was a huge untapped revenue source in Kildare or Belfast, I'd be saying the same thing. Mind you if they ploughed it into Tipp or Offaly, i'd be happy out :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 07, 2015, 11:06:33 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 10:54:18 AM
Introduce a rule whereby you cannot play Sigerson if you are training with a senior intercounty squad.
This would give sub-elite players a chance to play football with their college.
It would also reduce the scholarship merry-go-round as there's no point recruiting someone who won't be able to play for you.
It's unhealthy to have lads going to a college, or staying in college, just to play football.
Who would object to this?
And don't give me this "But the players will want to play Sigerson, think of the great memories they'll have etc."
It's high time we started protecting the players from themselves.
I full agree with Brolly by the way in terms of the GPA being the primary cause of the current mess.
A lot of county teams would train seniors and under 21s together.
I like Indiana's idea, but maybe at a slightly higher level. If you play Senior inter County championship, you cease to be eligible for an underage grade. Obviously the calendar will mitigate the impact of this rule when you are talking about pure U21s, but a lot of 20 year olds and younger are playing senior. I think once you've moved up you should be out of the underage equation.
It would make managers think twice about using younger lads as well.
re. the Sigerson, I think it's a good tournament, but it is starting to be blown way out of proportion. At the end of the day it's a knock out competition for colleges. A small bit of realism might be beneficial here. It should be a pleasant diversion for lads attending college, rather than a massive pressure situation for them. Colleges need to stop 'building' Sigerson teams, and instead go back to fielding teams to play Sigerson. (rather than 'creating a team *for* Sigerson).
Finally, I think they should not enter the O'Byrne/McKenna/FBD/McGrath Cups. No need for it. Is there still a third level league? If so, let them use that.
I think bringing in a rule that once you play adult county championship, you are ineligible for underage grades, reducing the perceived importance of the Sigerson, and reducing the amount of games the college teams play would be a good start.
Why not have a Rule in the T.O.( as otherwise every manager will want to have all his players no matter what guidelines are out there) that you can only be on one County panel at any given time. This would rule out the Hastinbgs/FBD double up and the NFL/U21 Championship double up.
Once a County U21 team knocked out of course you can go up to the Senior panel then. It would help greatly if U21 came down a year to U20.
Colleges teams need to be taken out of the January warm up competitions and is there any reason the Sigerson can't be played at the last weekend Jan/first weekend Feb.?
At present we have a big start to the NFL, then goes to sleep while the College boys have their tourney thing and then we get 4 NFL games in a row in March.
And of course Jinxy/Bolly have to blame the GPA ::) ( They need help badly ... J and B that is) ;D
Some recommendations on the Minor front -
http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=229791
They've been discussing this again just now on Newstalk.
James Horan and Philip Jordan were on.
Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
From talking to plenty of people I haven't heard anyone not agree with the fact that ther needs to be a radical overhaul of the fixtures from the top down and yet those that matter at the top continue to bury their head in the sand and do nothing.
Brollys interview on Newstalk sums up everything brilliantly and highlights the pressures on players now. They are pawns in the top brass' continued quest for revenue generation before player welfare. When will they say enough is enough?
It's all in aid of the professional approach! However it's trying to shoe horn that into an amateur structure. But we're not even remotely professional. All of our lads would be blown out of it by professional contact sportsmen from other codes.
That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.
I'm from S&C and I'd nearly bar some lads from the gym some evenings. Gaelic Football is played with a football not a dumb-bell. It's a pity some inter county managers wouldn't realise that and a greater pity the GAA don't. Because if they did they'd organise a better fixture list with a greater ratio of games to training and a proper player welfare programme outlining what teams and how many teams an individual player can line out for and impose serious sanctions on counties who break the rules.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 07, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
From talking to plenty of people I haven't heard anyone not agree with the fact that ther needs to be a radical overhaul of the fixtures from the top down and yet those that matter at the top continue to bury their head in the sand and do nothing.
Brollys interview on Newstalk sums up everything brilliantly and highlights the pressures on players now. They are pawns in the top brass' continued quest for revenue generation before player welfare. When will they say enough is enough?
It's all in aid of the professional approach! However it's trying to shoe horn that into an amateur structure. But we're not even remotely professional. All of our lads would be blown out of it by professional contact sportsmen from other codes.
That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.
I'm from S&C and I'd nearly bar some lads from the gym some evenings. Gaelic Football is played with a football not a dumb-bell. It's a pity some inter county managers wouldn't realise that and a greater pity the GAA don't. Because if they did they'd organise a better fixture list with a greater ratio of games to training and a proper player welfare programme outlining what teams and how many teams an individual player can line out for and impose serious sanctions on counties who break the rules.
So would professional soccer players.
Pointless statement.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 09:25:26 PM
Quote from: INDIANA on January 07, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on January 07, 2015, 11:32:39 AM
From talking to plenty of people I haven't heard anyone not agree with the fact that ther needs to be a radical overhaul of the fixtures from the top down and yet those that matter at the top continue to bury their head in the sand and do nothing.
Brollys interview on Newstalk sums up everything brilliantly and highlights the pressures on players now. They are pawns in the top brass' continued quest for revenue generation before player welfare. When will they say enough is enough?
It's all in aid of the professional approach! However it's trying to shoe horn that into an amateur structure. But we're not even remotely professional. All of our lads would be blown out of it by professional contact sportsmen from other codes.
That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.
I'm from S&C and I'd nearly bar some lads from the gym some evenings. Gaelic Football is played with a football not a dumb-bell. It's a pity some inter county managers wouldn't realise that and a greater pity the GAA don't. Because if they did they'd organise a better fixture list with a greater ratio of games to training and a proper player welfare programme outlining what teams and how many teams an individual player can line out for and impose serious sanctions on counties who break the rules.
So would professional soccer players.
Completely pointless statement.
Its not pointless Jinxy. it's exactly the point. Most GAA players are spending all their time in the gym trying to attain a strength and conditioning standard that is not required to play Gaelic Football. It doesn't improve their game, makes them constantly tired and helps only increase the injury rate. The only net benefit is the improvement in physique might help them score the odd Saturday night they are out.
And most professional soccer players are still fitter then GAA players.
They're not physically stronger though.
Which, by your logic, is a failure on their behalf.
For a fella 'from S&C' you seem to have some peculiar notions about it.
Tennis players do weights.
So do formula 1 drivers and golfers.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 09:34:26 PM
They're not physically stronger though.
Which, by your logic, is a failure on their behalf.
For a fella 'from S&C' you seem to have some peculiar notions about it.
Tennis players do weights.
So do formula 1 drivers and golfers.
Who's not physically stronger? A professional rugby player would blow a GAA inter county player out of the water.
I don't consider soccer to be a contact sport. Didn't know Formula 1 one was either. You seem to have some peculiar ideas on things.
My mother does weights too by the way.
Stronger than a soccer player obviously.
Comparing a gaelic footballer with a rugby player is absurd.
The two games are completely different.
SO on the one hand you say the players are doing too many weights and on the other hand you're deriding their efforts for not being as strong as athletes from other codes.
What point, if there is a point, are you trying to make?
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 09:48:01 PM
Stronger than a soccer player obviously.
Comparing a gaelic footballer with a rugby player is absurd.
The two games are completely different.
SO on the one hand you say the players are doing too many weights and on the other hand you're deriding their efforts for not being as strong as athletes from other codes.
What point, if there is a point, are you trying to make?
It's not absurd they do exactly the same weight exercises. I see several GAA players mapping themselves against rugby players strength and power levels. And being given weight programmes to achieve the same.
The point is very clear - why do GAA bother trying to attain a power level that a) they have no hope of achieving and b) has no improvement on their game. If you cut inter county players gym times by 50% you go a long way to solving the problems of burn out
Quote from: INDIANA on January 07, 2015, 09:39:59 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 09:34:26 PM
They're not physically stronger though.
Which, by your logic, is a failure on their behalf.
For a fella 'from S&C' you seem to have some peculiar notions about it.
Tennis players do weights.
So do formula 1 drivers and golfers.
Who's not physically stronger? A professional rugby player would blow a GAA inter county player out of the water.
I don't consider soccer to be a contact sport. Didn't know Formula 1 one was either. You seem to have some peculiar ideas on things.
My mother does weights too by the way.
You don't consider Soccer a contact sport? Why do the players wear shin guards? Have you ever seen two players rattle their heads off one another? Have you ever had a player go in hard with a sliding tackle? Is it because you cannot use your hands that you consider it non contact?
Quote from: INDIANA on January 07, 2015, 10:05:57 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 09:48:01 PM
Stronger than a soccer player obviously.
Comparing a gaelic footballer with a rugby player is absurd.
The two games are completely different.
SO on the one hand you say the players are doing too many weights and on the other hand you're deriding their efforts for not being as strong as athletes from other codes.
What point, if there is a point, are you trying to make?
It's not absurd they do exactly the same weight exercises. I see several GAA players mapping themselves against rugby players strength and power levels. And being given weight programmes to achieve the same.
The point is very clear - why do GAA bother trying to attain a power level that a) they have no hope of achieving and b) has no improvement on their game. If you cut inter county players gym times by 50% you go a long way to solving the problems of burn out
I don't really know what you mean here.
Mapping themselves how?
Are these intercounty players?
Do you think Dublin overdo their S&C preparation?
I think Paul Flynn is the best, or at least the most consistent, footballer in the country. He looks like a rugby league player. I'm guessing he's spent a fair amount of time in the gym.
Indiana, do you think he'd be as effective and good as he is if he wasn't as strong as he is?
(http://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/w540/Library/SF868/660732.jpg)
Paul Flynn is about 2 stone away from being a rugby league player.
He is a serious athlete though.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 11:07:12 PM
(http://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/w540/Library/SF868/660732.jpg)
Paul Flynn is about 2 stone away from being a rugby league player.
He is a serious athlete though.
Fair enough Jinxy slight exaggeration perhaps but still a machine. I find it hard to believe he hasn't spent serious time doing weights.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 07, 2015, 11:07:12 PM
(http://www.sportsfile.com/winshare/w540/Library/SF868/660732.jpg)
Paul Flynn is about 2 stone away from being a rugby league player.
He is a serious athlete though.
I'm no expert on this, but I think you're making Indiana's point for him. He's saying lads are spending *too much* time in the Gym, and trying to follow programs designed for other sports, such as rugby and rugby league, when a less intensive gym program, designed to make them *strong enough* for gaelic games, thereby allowing them to concentrate more on skills development, would be better.
In fairness he's been consistent on this for years. I remember his 'gym monkeys' comment about Dublin from several years ago.
I'd agree with your there AZ, the lads are only helping Indiana make his point.
Its clear that the way the GAA is going that some coaches are defaulting to S&C programmes that aren't GAA specific. The result is lads spending time bench pressing big weights and doing Olympic lifts with very poor technique.
He isn't saying that they shouldn't be in the Gym, just a lot less and doing differently than they are now.
He's doing the same thing you are both doing by saying S&C = GYM = big weights.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 07, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
It's all in aid of the professional approach! However it's trying to shoe horn that into an amateur structure. But we're not even remotely professional. All of our lads would be blown out of it by professional contact sportsmen from other codes.
That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.
I'm from S&C and I'd nearly bar some lads from the gym some evenings. Gaelic Football is played with a football not a dumb-bell. It's a pity some inter county managers wouldn't realise that and a greater pity the GAA don't. Because if they did they'd organise a better fixture list with a greater ratio of games to training and a proper player welfare programme outlining what teams and how many teams an individual player can line out for and impose serious sanctions on counties who break the rules.
Who is he talking about?
Club players?
County players?
We can all say, "I know a lad who is doing such and such because he heard some rugby player does it".
Who are the gym monkeys now?
Who are the inter county managers that are killing their players with heavy weights?
Dublin are the best conditioned team in the country and they are, to my mind, the team with the highest skill levels.
It's not a zero sum game.
So the question is, if Dublin have got the balance right, and Kerry have got the balance right, then who are the counties that are doing MORE than them in the gym?
Lifting bigger weights and doing things arseways in general.
No, he's not. Unless I'm completely misreading him, he's saying some S&C programs being followed are wrong BECAUSE they are all in the gym lifting big weights and following programs designed for other sports.
You are correct in that he hasn't said which players/teams he has observed or heard of doing this.
I'd be very curious, given how much S&C knowledge in the GAA has come on, to know which counties he is talking about.
If he's talking about club level then that's a different issue entirely.
The old Armagh model of weight training is long gone.
Players are much leaner and athletic in general now.
There are very few players around that I see and think, "He should lay off the weights".
I said I'm no expert in this, and I'm conscious now that I'm veering into the territory of speaking for Indiana, when he's well able to do that himself :)
I just thought you seemed to be in violent agreement with him in that he was saying that players following rugby league programs was wrong, and then Paul Flynn was mentioned, who as you said doesn't look anything like one of them lads.
Maybe if Indiana could give examples of what he is talking about, that might help. Anyway, I don't think I can contribute anything useful to this.
It goes without saying that a rugby league or rugby union style tailored programme is not suitable or appropriate for GAA players.
You don't need an S&C background to know that.
At county level, I don't see any evidence for that assertion though.
Remember the context here i.e. physical burnout, injuries etc.
A proper S&C programme should reduce these negative effects, not increase them.
If anyone is doing more than Kerry and Dublin in terms of S&C I'd be very surprised and they are the two most skilful teams in the country to my mind
It seemed to me that he was saying there was too much S&C, while using the example of poorly designed programmes to prove his point.
He said, 'That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do. It's trying to attain a "professional" standard - a standard which they will never ever hit. Yet their skills go to pot because of it- they don't enjoy it. And the reasons they don't enjoy it is because every bloody down day is spent in the fecking gym.'
So is the issue with S&C per se, or just with S&C when it is done badly.
But he is an S&C coach himself I thought, so why would he be against S&C? I think he's against what he perceives to be bad S&C programs. Anyway, maybe he'll come back this evening and explain it himself better than I.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 08, 2015, 11:20:02 AM
But he is an S&C coach himself I thought, so why would he be against S&C? I think he's against what he perceives to be bad S&C programs. Anyway, maybe he'll come back this evening and explain it himself better than I.
'That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do.'His words, not mine.
Who is getting it wrong and who is getting it right?
Quote from: Jinxy on January 08, 2015, 11:24:43 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 08, 2015, 11:20:02 AM
But he is an S&C coach himself I thought, so why would he be against S&C? I think he's against what he perceives to be bad S&C programs. Anyway, maybe he'll come back this evening and explain it himself better than I.
'That's why it's a complete folly the amount of strength and conditioning training senior GAA players do.'
His words, not mine.
Who is getting it wrong and who is getting it right?
The key phrase there is 'The Amount', not that they are doing s&c. But I can't answer your question, as I've said a few times now, so stop asking me :)
No one is doing more S&C than Dublin.
That's pretty obvious.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 08, 2015, 11:30:40 AM
No one is doing more S&C than Dublin.
That's pretty obvious.
I've no idea if that's true or not. They certainly look fit and strong, but maybe they're just doing it right :D
They're all on the Nutron diet as well.
copyright Tommy Lyons.
Take Kildare as a recent example at IC level. I was told by a person that I have no doubt would know that when Jason Ryan took over from Kieran McGeeney that he said he planned his training programme to recondition the players from the unrequired bulk that they had put on from the previous S&C regime from what he felt they needed to be at to play GAA.
In my own experience at club level, the dangers of S&C is incorrect technique, lifting too much, inadequate recovery and players lifting too much. Every coach will come in and tell you that it will prevent injury but unless they get time to show and correct every individual player the correct technique this won't happen. Its so specific that in a group session its very hard to manage, it needs to be done 1 on 1.
The club player just seems to head into the Gym and find his own way, print a programme off the internet and follow then.
Talking to a few of our club players over Xmas and they said they where never as fit when we had a local guy who trained then in a circuit style preseason. Was a mix of own body weight excercises (Squats, jumps, lunges, push ups, sit ups etc) and using some light weights (power bags, resistance bands, dumbbells etc). This would all be done outdoor, when running and they got in great shape very quickly.
Yep.
Bodyweight exercises are more than adequate for the average club player to get in shape. The main issue there is the lack of pulling exercises to balance out all the pushing.
Plus, poor mobility to perform correct technique
I'd agree that in this day and age the situation Indiana describes is much more likely to occur at club level where the local fella who did a personal training course comes in to take the 'fitness' side of things.
At inter-county level, given the fact that the players themselves now have a much better understanding of S&C, anyone who was giving them daft advice or had them training like power-lifters would be found out pretty quickly.
Bodyweight exercises are absolutely not enough to develop strength, they can initially but for trained individuals they are only worthwhile at the start. Group circuit training is a nonsense in my opinion unless you are simply doing it for variation in training. Yes, it will work up a sweat but so will any physical activity but it won't improve strength or power.
If you are coming from a low base, pretty much any intense physical activity will lead to an improvement in fitness.
It's not unusual to see a club player coming back a stone overweight after enjoying the winter, in which case a zumba class would be a step up.
It's a different kettle of fish altogether in terms of motivation, ability, actual training age etc. when compared with inter-county football.
are ye lads all S&C coaches, or qualified S&C coaches? Ye seem to know quite a bit.
As I said previous there is a balance to it all. Preseason to build up a good base that is continued throughout the year.
You need variation in training and it all needs to be monitored and controlled all year.
Was talking with a S&C qualified person recently who works full time in the area. He would see Strength and Conditioning as two very different areas with Gym work for GAA players only forming part of it all.
Quote from: Bingo on January 08, 2015, 01:05:09 PM
As I said previous there is a balance to it all. Preseason to build up a good base that is continued throughout the year.
You need variation in training and it all needs to be monitored and controlled all year.
Was talking with a S&C qualified person recently who works full time in the area. He would see Strength and Conditioning as two very different areas with Gym work for GAA players only forming part of it all.
As a completely uneducated person in all of this, I would have thought that to be true. (Physical) Strength and (Aerobic or fitness) Conditioning.
They're different areas in so far as you can be strong but not be 'conditioned'.
Plenty of lads go to the gym and burst themselves lifting massive weights but they'd struggle to run after a bus.
I suppose it has to be viewed in the context of specificity i.e. the goal is to to physically prepare you for the sport you are involved in.
So an S&C programme for a track cyclist is different to that of a road cyclist.
Likewise, what Indiana was saying earlier about GAA players trying to emulate rugby players.
You can draw on elements from other sports such as athletics and incorporate them into an S&C programme for a GAA player, as long as you don't lose sight of what you are supposed to be training him for.
However, you can't draw a line between the 'strength' bit and the 'conditioning' bit and say they are two unrelated areas.
They should go together and complement each other, particularly in a sport like gaelic football.
Has anyone ever used gravity boards as a method of pulling to go with the pushing. Great way to strengthen underage players without the risk of free weights.
Quote from: Walter Cronc on January 08, 2015, 01:43:34 PM
Has anyone ever used gravity boards as a method of pulling to go with the pushing. Great way to strengthen underage players without the risk of free weights.
excuse my ignorance, but what is a Gravity Board?
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on January 08, 2015, 01:45:09 PM
Quote from: Walter Cronc on January 08, 2015, 01:43:34 PM
Has anyone ever used gravity boards as a method of pulling to go with the pushing. Great way to strengthen underage players without the risk of free weights.
excuse my ignorance, but what is a Gravity Board?
They were big in the states, still are. Great alternative to weights. Tone rather than bulk.
http://www.ptmagazine.co.uk/?attachment_id=634
Never said unrelated.
In the context of the conversation we were having it about many clubs getting weights in and putting the players through weight lifting sessions and telling themselves that the S&C box was ticked.
They are different in the context that the exercises involved differ. Both go hand in hand, but many see it only one way.
Its also a danger in trying to replicate IC practices onto Club teams. With an IC squad you have very committed players who will generally always be in good shape. Therefore you are building on whats there. Rarely will a county player not be training - be it on their own or as part of a panel.
A club player panel of players are very different. You'll have a range of players, some who are like a county player and always in good shape, you'll have some who keep themselves right but do no more and then you'll have another batch who will be looking for the gear from the last time the club trained together 2 months back. Presents a massive challenge to anyone coming in trying to put a S&C or preseason programme in place as it really needs to be individualised across a range of groups within the squad. The range of fitness and conditioning can be laughable at times!
my two cents on this
you will have lads in a club that will be into the S&C training and enjoy it.
other lads who might come around if they see the benefits for playing
and then the lads who will knock it no matter what
I think it is better to spend money on a S&C trainer who will at least put lads through a decent program, rather than investing in a load of equipment that will not be used much. Some medicine balls, a chin up/horizontal row rack, some dumbbells is more than adequate for most teams
There is definitely a huge need for more educational material coming from the GAA about S&C training.
If only to dispell some of the myths that are out there eg
Weights = bulky
Muscle = slow
Do S&C for preseason then no need to continue it.
S&C causes injuries (it should actually reduce them)
The amount of supporters who haven't a clue about this stuff is unreal.
"Lads look heavy legged out there obviously too many weights"
"Too top heavy"
"too many weights not enough football"
Reality is with less GAA players in manual labour they need to make up the difference in the gym.
To be fair I think GAA is going in the right direction with the strength and conditioning as bulk is a thing of the past and it's all about being strong, lean, mobile and fast these days which is what is needed. Rugby league is definitely not the route we want to go as it's more explosive than our game with more intense collisions whereas GAA requires more stamina for longer runs. In my opinion it's more the volume of training expected rather than the type at this stage...
I think the early morning collective football sessions are ridiculous and when it came out that Dublin were flat out with them in 2011 I thought we would face the madness that has now unfolded. I think collective pitch sessions at this time of year are a complete waste of time and counter productive for the purpose they fulfill.
Everyone lives in Dublin City Centre so it's not a huge deal to be somewhere at 6.30am... the geographical spread of other counties means lads leaving the house at 5.30 or earlier in the morning and sometimes not being home til 11 in some cases if they have training that evening again. Crazy!!
Exactly it's the volume of training, I'd also love to know the training v game ratio both for club and intercounty.
As for the build of a player, Paul Flynn would probably be as close to the ideal build of a GAA player, lean, strong and mobile.
Quote from: DennistheMenace on January 09, 2015, 09:20:56 AM
Exactly it's the volume of training, I'd also love to know the training v game ratio both for club and intercounty.
As for the build of a player, Paul Flynn would probably be as close to the ideal build of a GAA player, lean, strong and mobile.
i think i remember seeing somewhere is something like 11 hrs of training per 1 hour of game time on average for a club player
Most movement in Gaelic is walking or jogging. Something like over 70%
Most movement in American football is drinking gatorade and sitting on the bench.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Changes to the minor season being proposed. Not out of time.
http://www.gaa.ie/content/documents/Report%20of%20the%20GAA%20Minor%20Review%20Workgroup.pdf
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:11 AM
Most movement in American football is drinking gatorade and sitting on the bench.
I'm not sure what your point is.
You train for the demands of the game.
You don't need speed over long distances in Gaelic football.
Speed within the first 10m is the most important - acceleration, deceleration, turning off both sides, landing
Yo0u still need a high level of aerobic fitness though.
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2015, 12:32:29 PM
Yo0u still need a high level of aerobic fitness though.
Exactly. Not all your training should be game specific. There should be a general fitness block in any training program that won't necessarily be game or position specific but is designed to allow you train more individually later on in the training program. Yes, you may never run 400m at high speed in a game or run 50m in an entirely straight line but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be part of every players training program at some point in the season.
Want to improve cardio? Do something that gets the heart rate up.
Want to get stronger? Lift something that weighs a bit.
Want to get more powerful? See getting stronger, just do it faster.
The key is to do it in such a way that it helps the athlete not hinders them. Your training should be structured so that it reflects the demands of your sport and it should do this more and more as you get towards serious competition, at the start though it will probably be very general. Most ball playing field sports will require a mixture of cardio, strength and power fitness but developing them all logically isn't that easy.
you can't shoot a cannon from a canoe (I stole that from someone else)
a decent level of strength has be put in place first.
aerobic and anaerobic conditioning can be built up in ways other than running
Quote from: Jinxy on January 09, 2015, 11:26:11 AM
Most movement in American football is drinking gatorade and sitting on the bench.
I'm not sure what your point is.
Classic. ;D
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on January 08, 2015, 04:39:24 PM
my two cents on this
you will have lads in a club that will be into the S&C training and enjoy it.
other lads who might come around if they see the benefits for playing
and then the lads who will knock it no matter what
I think it is better to spend money on a S&C trainer who will at least put lads through a decent program, rather than investing in a load of equipment that will not be used much. Some medicine balls, a chin up/horizontal row rack, some dumbbells is more than adequate for most teams
There is definitely a huge need for more educational material coming from the GAA about S&C training.
If only to dispell some of the myths that are out there eg
Weights = bulky
Muscle = slow
Do S&C for preseason then no need to continue it.
S&C causes injuries (it should actually reduce them)
But there is far too much emphasis on it in detriment to ball skills. We seem to have forgotten at times what the game is about. A lot of this S&C training is overdone by players.
Quote from: INDIANA on January 09, 2015, 07:17:45 PM
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on January 08, 2015, 04:39:24 PM
my two cents on this
you will have lads in a club that will be into the S&C training and enjoy it.
other lads who might come around if they see the benefits for playing
and then the lads who will knock it no matter what
I think it is better to spend money on a S&C trainer who will at least put lads through a decent program, rather than investing in a load of equipment that will not be used much. Some medicine balls, a chin up/horizontal row rack, some dumbbells is more than adequate for most teams
There is definitely a huge need for more educational material coming from the GAA about S&C training.
If only to dispell some of the myths that are out there eg
Weights = bulky
Muscle = slow
Do S&C for preseason then no need to continue it.
S&C causes injuries (it should actually reduce them)
But there is far too much emphasis on it in detriment to ball skills. We seem to have forgotten at times what the game is about. A lot of this S&C training is overdone by players.
I was replying to the S&C question
balls skills is a totally different question
teams usually lose game as they are not able to pass accurately or kick the ball over the bar
Young Cathal's take:
QuoteTraining Smart: An Interview with Cathal Cregg
Friday, January 09, 2015
By Brian Murphy
You might know Cathal Cregg as a Roscommon footballer, Connacht Championship winner and All Star nominee, but by day he's also Connacht GAA's Strength and Conditioning Officer, based at their Centre of Excellence in Bekan, Mayo.
Cregg graduated with a Sports Science degree from DCU - part of his studies included a nine-month placement with Connacht Rugby - before going on to do a Research Masters in Exercise Physiology focusing on comparing interval training and endurance training in GAA players.
In 2013, he was appointed to the pioneering new role by Connacht GAA and now spends much of his time working with underage inter-county development squads, who come to Bekan to avail of the superb facilities and expertise available.
At the Liberty Insurance GAA Games Development Conference in Croke Park on Saturday, Cregg will make a presentation entitled 'Physical Fitness Development/Monitoring at Youth Level: Evidence from the Smartabase System'.
Liberty Insurance Games Development Conference 2015 Programme
Cregg has been using the Smartabase system, which is being used by the GAA to gather online data from youth development squads to build up a record of players' training programmes, injury history and rehabilitation, for the last 18 months.
Primarily used by professional sports organisations, Smartabase has a hugely impressive client list including eight AFL clubs, the Australian Institute of Sport and Liverpool FC, but Cregg feels the innovative system is equally suited to Gaelic Games, particularly in the area of monitoring the development of underage players and guiding them through to adult level.
"Managers and players will have login details and basically what it does is it cuts out a paper trail so you can have attendance lists, fitness test data, injury records and training load details all in the one place which is easy to access," explains Cregg.
"You have a full record of a player from when they start with the academy squad right through minor, U21 and senior if they are lucky enough to get that far. It should help coaches in the long-term development of players."
In use by the GAA for the last 18 months, the data being gathered on underage academy players at the moment will be used when those players start to graduate to U21 and senior level.
"What we aim to get is more accurate fitness testing norms for the different components of fitness such as aerobic fitness, speed, power and body fat for the different age groups so we can give them accurate feedback and design individual age appropriate programmes around that.
"It's also very important for monitoring training so that players aren't being trained too hard and picking up injuries as a result."
The monitoring aspect is one that should prove especially beneficial in an era when young GAA players are frequently involved in multiple teams and are therefore working with a number of different coaches at the same time.
The Minor Review Workgroup report released in Croke Park on Wednesday made for grim reading in this regard, with examples of young players representing 10 different teams and training 12 times in a nine-day period recorded in their case studies.
Under the heading 'Player Welfare and Coach Education', the report highlights the insufficient education of players and coaches on the importance of rest and recovery.
One of the proposed solutions, in the form of a policy proposal recommended to Ard Chomhairle, is the use of Smartabase as a monitoring system to track activity and parameters associated with risk of over-training/burnout.
"One of the things we introduced last year with a number of the academy teams and a few senior teams in Connacht is the monitoring aspect of it where the players fill in a short daily questionnaire through an app on their phone. From that we can track exactly how much activity the players are doing," says Cregg.
"We can then advise the coaches to tailor their training depending on what we are seeing, as too much training or games can have negative effects on the players' performance and overall health.
"I'll go into that in more detail in the presentation, but basically a player fills out a quick questionnaire every evening and it feeds back to the coach to tell them what training they have been doing outside their own training programme.
"For example, players who are involved with schools, third level, U21 and senior, and where it's not just one coach working with them, this system will allow the coaches to have a full understanding of all the training sessions they are doing and games they are playing."
Working on the ground with young players on a daily basis, Cregg is fully aware of how big an issue overtraining is at the moment.
"There is probably a mentality in the GAA that more is better all the time and recovery isn't taken into account," he says. "It's OK to train hard for certain periods of time, but you have to allow for rest and recovery and if you don't you will see increased injury rates, which we have also seen from the injury database in Croke Park.
"We have seen a high percentage of muscle type injuries which shouldn't be occurring if training methods and training loads and volumes are appropriate.
"The main thing around that is the education of coaches in the area. In Connacht we have developed an online and practical conditioning course which we are in the middle of running and we hope to be finished it by the end of March.
"We would hope that it would give coaches a basic knowledge of the area and let them know what the dos and don'ts are in the area of strength and conditioning."
Strength and conditioning – or S & C as it is often referred to – is the catch-all phrase that encompasses any activity designed to enhance performance and it has become something of an obsession in the preparation of GAA teams in recent years.
The level of conditioning of top inter-county players these days is obvious, but the culture has now filtered down to club players and even to underage players, who are coming under increasing pressure to start S & C programmes.
"Even though it's the area I work in and is an important area in a player's development, I feel coaches focus on it too much and that it may be to the detriment of other sides of the game such as skill development and team play," Cregg argues.
"As a starting point I think coaches and managers need to get their teams tested and screened to get a good, accurate picture of where their players are at from a physical fitness point of view and compare them to accurate norms and then design their design programmes around that.
"If you don't take this route, I feel you are only guessing what training they should be doing and maybe training them for the sake of training them."
***
Cathal Cregg will be speaking at the 2015 Liberty Insurance Games Development Conference in Croke Park on Saturday, January 10. Click here for a full programme of events and a list of guest speakers. Going to the Liberty Insurance Games Development Conference? We want to hear from you! Tweet your views to @officialgaa or #GamesConference2015
http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/0901151457-training-smart-an-interview-with-cathal-cregg/
Young Cathal will be 28 this year ;)
It seems to me that Jason Ryan is right here... what do the fitness experts make of it? Madness on UCD's part, or bad luck, or both?
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/tommy-moolick-s-suspected-cruciate-injury-angers-kildare-boss-jason-ryan-1.2062122
Quote from: Ohtoohtobe on January 12, 2015, 12:28:32 AM
It seems to me that Jason Ryan is right here... what do the fitness experts make of it? Madness on UCD's part, or bad luck, or both?
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/gaelic-football/tommy-moolick-s-suspected-cruciate-injury-angers-kildare-boss-jason-ryan-1.2062122
third level colleges should not be in these competitions.
but if they weren't, they'd be playing challenge games or training.
time to limit players to ONE panel only at a time. No crossover allowed between county and third level until the Sigerson is finished (which is badly scheduled imho as it is a big distraction for the students involved).
The GPA can sort these problems out. They just need a bit more funding.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dessie-farrell-says-gpa-facing-serious-funding-challenges-1.2066125
Quote from: orangeman on January 15, 2015, 10:47:59 AM
The GPA can sort these problems out. They just need a bit more funding.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dessie-farrell-says-gpa-facing-serious-funding-challenges-1.2066125
Dessie is the the GAA equivalent of our Wullie...more dosh Dessie
"Among the projects planned in the 2014 annual report is to develop a specifically built GAA Player Institute, with an estimated cost of between €8-€10 million".
What is this does anyone know? A big massy building with statues of Dessie and co located at the marble entrance? An institute for all players? Elite players? Dessie is spending the our association's money like its 2006 ! Reel him in ffs
Quote from: JoG2 on January 15, 2015, 10:56:50 AM
Quote from: orangeman on January 15, 2015, 10:47:59 AM
The GPA can sort these problems out. They just need a bit more funding.
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dessie-farrell-says-gpa-facing-serious-funding-challenges-1.2066125
Dessie is the the GAA equivalent of our Wullie...more dosh Dessie
"Among the projects planned in the 2014 annual report is to develop a specifically built GAA Player Institute, with an estimated cost of between €8-€10 million".
What is this does anyone know? A big massy building with statues of Dessie and co located at the marble entrance? An institute for all players? Elite players? Dessie is spending the our association's money like its 2006 ! Reel him in ffs
A GAA Player Institute? What's that supposed to be? Costing 8-10 million? This is what I was on about when I spoke about the GAA chasing more money to build more stuff, whether it's needed or not. The business model justifying itself. How many American Football games in Croker for this, or Leinster championship matches with Dublin in Croker?
I had to look up this Institute to see what they had in mind.
This was an unlikely source for info: https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/gpa-set-build-institute-help-personal-development-players-133041171--spt.html (https://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/gpa-set-build-institute-help-personal-development-players-133041171--spt.html)
The gaelic players Association today launched their annual report for 2014 and outlined their ambitions for the year ahead.
With rapid increase in engagement by county players with the GPA Development Programme over the past 12 months, the organisation is set to focus even more the personal development of players off the field in 2015.
Indeed, the GPA has outlined ambitious plans to create a world class facility known as The Institute which will support their key activities in careers, education, life skills, leadership, health and well-being.
The report says the facility will either be constructed as a stand-alone centre or co-located on a business, sporting or educational campus.
Building the estimated 2,250 sq meter facility is expected to bring the GPA's annual expenditure from €3.3 million to €7 million with additional annual capital expenditure of between €8-10 million.
Speaking at the launch, Dessie Farrell, CEO of the GPA said:
"There is more and more evidence to suggest that there is a tangible link between off field development and on field success across a range of sports which is important information for everyone involved in our games.
"Our ambition in the GPA is to have one of the best Player Development Programmes in the world so that county players, who are commercially harnessed for the wider benefit of the GAA, are properly supported with their off-field careers.
"To make that a reality it requires us to think differently about player development and to invest heavily in it ensuring that more and more players transition from the county game prepared for life after.
"It is also imperative that the county game continues to prosper and maintains its pre-eminence on the sporting calendar."
My initial reaction is that this is badly needed in, for example, the NFL. The Premier League could possibly do with it as well. The idea and concept are good for cash rich sports, but is it needed that badly to justify the cost to the GAA family? I don't see it myself.
Pre the crash a lot of top players got jobs "in the bank". Eg Shefflin. But that model must be dead now with all the cutbacks and the committment of players if anything has intensified. So helping them with careers beyond buying a pub or opening a sports shop should be encouraged. Not everyone will need help but a certain number will.
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2015, 11:50:17 AM
Pre the crash a lot of top players got jobs "in the bank". Eg Shefflin. But that model must be dead now with all the cutbacks and the committment of players if anything has intensified. So helping them with careers beyond buying a pub or opening a sports shop should be encouraged. Not everyone will need help but a certain number will.
No problem with that at all. I'm not saying the work the GPA put into helping lads with careers, interviews etc is bad, in fact my father is playing a similar role at this stage for a county team. I also support any initiatives they have to help players with health, mental or otherwise. But building an institute for this seems yet another 'project' which may not be actually required, and will put pressure on the GAA to maintain or increase revenue streams, which in turn is, I believe, influencing decisions made with regards to our games.
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 15, 2015, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2015, 11:50:17 AM
Pre the crash a lot of top players got jobs "in the bank". Eg Shefflin. But that model must be dead now with all the cutbacks and the committment of players if anything has intensified. So helping them with careers beyond buying a pub or opening a sports shop should be encouraged. Not everyone will need help but a certain number will.
No problem with that at all. I'm not saying the work the GPA put into helping lads with careers, interviews etc is bad, in fact my father is playing a similar role at this stage for a county team. I also support any initiatives they have to help players with health, mental or otherwise. But building an institute for this seems yet another 'project' which may not be actually required, and will put pressure on the GAA to maintain or increase revenue streams, which in turn is, I believe, influencing decisions made with regards to our games.
Agree 100%
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 15, 2015, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 15, 2015, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2015, 11:50:17 AM
Pre the crash a lot of top players got jobs "in the bank". Eg Shefflin. But that model must be dead now with all the cutbacks and the committment of players if anything has intensified. So helping them with careers beyond buying a pub or opening a sports shop should be encouraged. Not everyone will need help but a certain number will.
No problem with that at all. I'm not saying the work the GPA put into helping lads with careers, interviews etc is bad, in fact my father is playing a similar role at this stage for a county team. I also support any initiatives they have to help players with health, mental or otherwise. But building an institute for this seems yet another 'project' which may not be actually required, and will put pressure on the GAA to maintain or increase revenue streams, which in turn is, I believe, influencing decisions made with regards to our games.
Agree 100%
Can you say overblown ego-massaging project?
http://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0116/673156-kavanagh-warns-no-inter-county-for-old-men/
Here are Rory Kavanagh's views on it.
Michael Duignan also had a go at the current training regimes at a GAA awards night in Waterford last weekend.
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 15, 2015, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 15, 2015, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2015, 11:50:17 AM
Pre the crash a lot of top players got jobs "in the bank". Eg Shefflin. But that model must be dead now with all the cutbacks and the committment of players if anything has intensified. So helping them with careers beyond buying a pub or opening a sports shop should be encouraged. Not everyone will need help but a certain number will.
No problem with that at all. I'm not saying the work the GPA put into helping lads with careers, interviews etc is bad, in fact my father is playing a similar role at this stage for a county team. I also support any initiatives they have to help players with health, mental or otherwise. But building an institute for this seems yet another 'project' which may not be actually required, and will put pressure on the GAA to maintain or increase revenue streams, which in turn is, I believe, influencing decisions made with regards to our games.
Agree 100%
I agree entirely with you on this . You seem to have your hand on the pulse on quite a few things.
This article hits the nail on the head and has real people and facts to back it up!!!
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/is-too-much-being-asked-of-our-gaa-players-307423.html
Quote from: screenexile on January 19, 2015, 12:13:55 AM
This article hits the nail on the head and has real people and facts to back it up!!!
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/is-too-much-being-asked-of-our-gaa-players-307423.html
Good piece
Good, but not that good. (http://waitingtolaunch.com/joe-brolly-on-broadcasting/).
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 19, 2015, 06:25:10 AM
Good, but not that good. (http://waitingtolaunch.com/joe-brolly-on-broadcasting/).
Interesting but don't agree with it all. For example, if GAA Go's aim is only to broaden participation, why charge for it?
GAAGo's aim is not to broaden participation, that's about accommodating demand from existing GAA fans. It's the Sky and Channel 7 parts that reach the new audiences.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 19, 2015, 06:31:05 PM
GAAGo's aim is not to broaden participation, that's about accommodating demand from existing GAA fans. It's the Sky and Channel 7 parts that reach the new audiences.
Come off it. Giving rights to Sky is about money, not increasing participation. As for Channel 7, I live in Australia and there's delayed coverage of the vast majority of games on an obscure digital channel. Hardcore fans want to watch it live and even if they didn't, waiting for Channel 7 means being up an extra hour with most people working the next morning. Now call me cynical, but I'm not convinced it isn't delayed by design, to encourage people to pay for GAA Go (which has hiked its prices for the coming season, by the way). Unfortunately most journalists are just a conduit for the spin from Croke Park without checking the exact circumstances of this much-trumpeted "free-to-air in Australia" initiative.
Quote from: rionach 4 on January 16, 2015, 07:33:42 PM
Quote from: macdanger2 on January 15, 2015, 09:36:23 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on January 15, 2015, 12:16:21 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 15, 2015, 11:50:17 AM
Pre the crash a lot of top players got jobs "in the bank". Eg Shefflin. But that model must be dead now with all the cutbacks and the committment of players if anything has intensified. So helping them with careers beyond buying a pub or opening a sports shop should be encouraged. Not everyone will need help but a certain number will.
No problem with that at all. I'm not saying the work the GPA put into helping lads with careers, interviews etc is bad, in fact my father is playing a similar role at this stage for a county team. I also support any initiatives they have to help players with health, mental or otherwise. But building an institute for this seems yet another 'project' which may not be actually required, and will put pressure on the GAA to maintain or increase revenue streams, which in turn is, I believe, influencing decisions made with regards to our games.
Agree 100%
I agree entirely with you on this . You seem to have your hand on the pulse on quite a few things.
an institute.. that's what we need a f**king institute. For a group that seems to spend it's money on consultancy reports a 10 million library is critical. Sepp blatter might get a retirement job in this institute