http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/does-brian-cody-have-to-behave-like-this-1.1947086
It's now well over four years since former GAA president Christy Cooney, in what he described as "the most important launch" of his term of office, unveiled the 'Respect' initiative.
Intended to promote "a new approach of fair play, mutual respect and goodwill to Gaelic football and hurling across all grades," its purpose was to encourage players from juvenile up to compete fairly and respect each other, their mentors and match officials.
Hardly revolutionary in its ambition, the initiative has however been up against one of the most oppressive aspects of Gaelic games: disinclination to accept rules and their enforcement and effective contempt for objectivity. In other words, behaviour that everyone can dispassionately agree is unacceptable becomes a matter of ambivalence if your own team indulges in it.
The disheartening American football precept of "show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser" appears within Gaelic games to have fostered a corollary: "show me a graceless winner and I'll show you a winner".
It's almost as if winning All-Irelands has become a licence to say what you want. A year ago Dublin football manager Jim Gavin after winning the All-Ireland was highly critical of what he felt was an inexplicable disparity between frees conceded by his team and those awarded to them.
He explained the timing of his grievances. "In defeat it's not the place to be saying it so we were never going to bring it up before this unless we were in a position where we could mention it."
A year before that Donegal manager Jim McGuinness used the occasion of his post-All-Ireland media conference to pick on a journalist who had done nothing dishonourable but had written a book which didn't have McGuinness's blessing.
Yet the guv'nor in such matters – as in most aspects of All-Ireland success – is Kilkenny hurling manager Brian Cody. It would be difficult to overstate the scale of Cody's achievements over a 16-year period. His 10 All-Ireland victories are a record for a GAA manager and equalled on the field only by the greatest player of this, or perhaps any, generation Henry Shefflin.
There was much admiration for the manner in which Cody won the battle of wits in the All-Ireland final replay and the manner in which he sent out a team, many of whom have gorged on success, at perfect mental pitch for the challenge.
For many that sentiment turned to dismay when it emerged that the Kilkenny manager had used a press conference, 24 hours later, to attempt to discredit referee Barry Kelly, who had officiated at last month's drawn final and whose award of a free to Tipperary in the dying seconds was much disputed by Kilkenny. Maybe Cody feels, like Gavin, that this is the best time to raise such matters but it causes widespread disappointment – All-Ireland champions are after all admired by a large proportion of the GAA public and especially when they are historically great teams like Kilkenny.
In an interview after the 2009 All-Ireland triumph against Tipperary, which made Kilkenny the first county in 65 years to record a four-in-a-row, Cody was asked – entirely reasonably – by RTÉ's Marty Morrissey for his views on the controversial late penalty that had turned the match.
The Kilkenny manager replied that you'd be busy if you decided to readjudicate all of the frees in a match. There followed: "Did you think yourself it was a penalty, Marty?"
"I wasn't too sure but it did seem a little bit dodgy in the replay."
"I have no idea, Marty. Did you check all the other frees as well to see were they dodgy? [Uneasy laughter] Maybe you should. Maybe you
should."
"What did you think of the referee overall; do you think he allowed a lot to go?
"Marty, please, give me a break. The referee – we're supposed to say nothing about referees and I make a habit of saying absolutely nothing about referees. Diarmuid Kirwan, I'm certain in my head was going out to be the very best he possibly could be. You seem to have had a problem with him. You tell me."
What we can deduce from this is some striking double standards. When a controversial decision has benefited Kilkenny, Cody rigorously opts to say "absolutely nothing" about the referee beyond that he went out "to be the very best he possibly could be".
When however the controversial call – and for the purposes of the argument I'm saying nothing about the merits of either refereeing decision – adversely affects Kilkenny, it's alright to launch a swingeing public attack on the match official.
Furthermore if a late decision that went your way might be incorrect, then what about all of the other decisions in the match; in other words, swings and roundabouts. If however a late decision that you deem incorrect goes against Kilkenny that's "criminal".
As a postscript, it's worth noting that Kilkenny clearly have issues with Barry Kelly in respect of controversies in the past three years: the late free that led to Galway's equaliser in the drawn 2012 All-Ireland final, the two yellow cards that led to Henry Shefflin's dismissal in last year's All-Ireland quarter-final and this year's drawn final.
Equally, though, it's worth remembering that in two of these cases the controversies have been amplified by Kilkenny themselves with Cody's comments this week and the decision a year ago to challenge the Shefflin sending-off even though it didn't carry a direct suspension.
The decision by the Central Hearings Committee to rescind the first yellow card was dubious in that it involved re-refereeing the incident rather than demonstrating that it hadn't happened.
Despite these controversies, Croke Park haven't yielded to the obvious push to get the Westmeath referee excluded from taking Kilkenny matches.
Ideally Brian Cody would simply apologise to Barry Kelly, let the matter go and spend the winter enjoying his unique achievement but what are the chances of that?
There's nothing unusual about ultra-successful people sometimes behaving unreasonably. Only one man has managed a county to 10 All-Irelands so we don't have a comparator to help adjudicate whether Cody's achievements are inseparable from his taste for settling scores.
But you'd hope not
I was glad Cody spoke out about the decision at the end of the drawn game, and I feel it was more dignified of him to do it after the season was finished instead of yapping about it in the days after the game. It was a free that in all likelihood shouldn't have been given (Hogan had more a case for a free if anything) and it nearly cost them an All Ireland.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 01, 2014, 03:16:45 PM
I was glad Cody spoke out about the decision at the end of the drawn game, and I feel it was more dignified of him to do it after the season was finished instead of yapping about it in the days after the game. It was a free that in all likelihood shouldn't have been given (Hogan had more a case for a free if anything) and it nearly cost them an All Ireland.
A free that in all likelihood should not have been given. That's probably the concensus. Although it's not the universal feeling, and very few say that it was absolutely certainly the wrong decision.
My point is that even after multiple replays from several angles there is still an arguement over whether it was the correct decision or not. Cody himself cannot decide if it should have been a Kilkenny free or 'play on'. As much as we all loves hurling and football we must surely agree that the rules are open to interpretation (the biggest being the tackle in football). So to condemn a referee for this particular decision, made on the spot under huge pressure, is ridiculous. And the language used by Cody is wildly inappropriate.
Barry Kelly is one of the top referees in what is an extremely difficult sport to referee.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 01, 2014, 03:16:45 PM
I was glad Cody spoke out about the decision at the end of the drawn game, and I feel it was more dignified of him to do it after the season was finished instead of yapping about it in the days after the game. It was a free that in all likelihood shouldn't have been given (Hogan had more a case for a free if anything) and it nearly cost them an All Ireland.
I can't beleave anyone who says it wasn't a free. I have watched several times now and have come to the same conclusion. Hogan went on safari down the middle when he did look up P Maher was right in front of him. Hogan made no attempt to sidestep him and at the last minute turned his shoulder in and charged him then proceeded to fall very quickly as if he'd been shot with a sniper. I don't know if kelly gave the free for charging or diving or both. Can someone please tell me what maher done wrong as he never flinched or tried to shoulder him he just stood him up
Even if you have a different interpretation that one event it can't detract from the fact that B Kelly is the only ref n the country that applies the same mindset to them as any one else
Kilkenny where worthy winners on Saturday and are the standard bearers for 10 years now but for Cody to come out and lambast an official in that manner is a disgrace considering the free in question
He tried to manipulate kelly in the press in the week leading up to game but fair play to kelly he played it as he seen it
I hope the the people allocating refs for matches don't try to keep kelly away from KK games as this what Cody is angling at
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on October 01, 2014, 04:06:24 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 01, 2014, 03:16:45 PM
I was glad Cody spoke out about the decision at the end of the drawn game, and I feel it was more dignified of him to do it after the season was finished instead of yapping about it in the days after the game. It was a free that in all likelihood shouldn't have been given (Hogan had more a case for a free if anything) and it nearly cost them an All Ireland.
I can't beleave anyone who says it wasn't a free. I have watched several times now and have come to the same conclusion. Hogan went on safari down the middle when he did look up P Maher was right in front of him. Hogan made no attempt to sidestep him and at the last minute turned his shoulder in and charged him then proceeded to fall very quickly as if he'd been shot with a sniper. I don't know if kelly gave the free for charging or diving or both. Can someone please tell me what maher done wrong as he never flinched or tried to shoulder him he just stood him up
Even if you have a different interpretation that one event it can't detract from the fact that B Kelly is the only ref n the country that applies the same mindset to them as any one else
Kilkenny where worthy winners on Saturday and are the standard bearers for 10 years now but for Cody to come out and lambast an official in that manner is a disgrace considering the free in question
He tried to manipulate kelly in the press in the week leading up to game but fair play to kelly he played it as he seen it
I hope the the people allocating refs for matches don't try to keep kelly away from KK games as this what Cody is angling at
That is my exact recollection of the event, Kelly got it spot on IMO. Strongly agree that Cody's agenda is keeping Kelly away from refereeing KK games in future. He didn't fall for Larkin diving either it should be said. Now if Cody had concentrated on the drag downs that started outside the penalty area he might have some firm ground underneath him.
Cody is a proper "hurlingman". Doesn't want Refs doing silly things like implementing rules :P
My cousin in Kilkenny calls his dog Cody. I'd thought it was to mark the man's magnificent achievements but after reading this I am wondering.
The dirty dog.
Quote from: Rossfan on October 01, 2014, 04:38:39 PM
Cody is a proper "hurlingman". Doesn't want Refs doing silly things like implementing rules :P
Unfortunately it seems that different referees apply the rules very differently. Kelly does seem to have an axe to grind with Kilkenny. It wasn't a foul by Hogan, should never have been a free. The old referee adage I have used if in doubt give nowt! would apply in this case.
Few soft penalties in the same game.
Sending off 'God' for nothing.
and more and more!
I agree with Shark Kelly is a top ref, but his reputation does go before him somewhat,
cody is like alex ferguson a bully
for me it was clear charging and the free was meritedat the time
I would say cody was happy enough with the ref on Saturday cos he suited kk
Quote from: pullhard on October 01, 2014, 06:43:32 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on October 01, 2014, 04:38:39 PM
Cody is a proper "hurlingman". Doesn't want Refs doing silly things like implementing rules :P
Unfortunately it seems that different referees apply the rules very differently. Kelly does seem to have an axe to grind with Kilkenny. It wasn't a foul by Hogan, should never have been a free. The old referee adage I have used if in doubt give nowt! would apply in this case.
Few soft penalties in the same game.
Sending off 'God' for nothing.
and more and more!
I agree with Shark Kelly is a top ref, but his reputation does go before him somewhat,
I'm still in disagreement with this, Henry slapped Kearney on the hand at the top of the hurley after he was getting away from him, might have been a softish yellow, but yellow all the same as no attempt was made to play the ball, the other yellow with the hurl around the neck was just pure silly from Shefflin and wreckless, so IMO it wasn't the great travesty people are making out.
Ditto Ryan O'Dwyer who also got the line the same year for two yellows, harsh but correct IMO.
I agree that Hogan was charging and Shefflin's red wasn't overly harsh. All 3 reds that were rescinded last year were technically correct. It's difficult enough for refs to get the respect they deserve, without the GAA bowing to media pressure and undermining them.
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 02, 2014, 11:56:23 AM
I agree that Hogan was charging and Shefflin's red wasn't overly harsh. All 3 reds that were rescinded last year were technically correct. It's difficult enough for refs to get the respect they deserve, without the GAA bowing to media pressure and undermining them.
Refs decision has to be final. This use of the media to bully refs is not on. Does rugby allow it by any chance?
the more I read about it the less respect I have for Cody as a person. Brilliant coach but lets himself down on the behaviour off pitch.
Rugby should be the role model for all sports with regard to treatment of referees and the quality of refereeing.
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 02, 2014, 01:44:47 PM
Rugby should be the role model for all sports with regard to treatment of referees and the quality of refereeing.
Jaysus Asal, I don't know about that. Fair enough about the 'treatment' of referees, they certainly never seem to be running off the pitch with a horde of players and fans running after them, even in Thomond Park, but I've seen over the past 4 or 5 years a lot more 'backchat' to refs. It's still minor compared to soccer, which is the worst, and the GAA but it's creeping in.
As regards the quality of referees, I think that's just like any other sport. Some Good, and quite a few Bad. And if the GAA is bad for 'interpretation', rugby is 100 times worse. There's only a few laws of the game, and essentially everything else is interpretation against those laws. Referees vary hugely with regard to what teams get away with at scrum time and the breakdown especially. Kavanagh talking about Kilkenny playing the ref goes on all the time in Rugby.
I misread the name in the headline as "Brian Carthy" and had read a couple of paragraphs before copping on.
It always appears very respectful to me, though I confess to knowing very little about rugby and only being an occasional viewer. I played the game once and that was enough for me. On the quality issue, I'll have to bow to your greater experience AZ and retreat in disarray. :)
I've always had the impression that rugby referees are very assured and correct in their decision making because of the way the players behave towards them. I like the way that only the captain can query something with the ref , and then, only in a respectful way. At least that's how I remember it.
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 02, 2014, 01:44:47 PM
Rugby should be the role model for all sports with regard to treatment of referees and the quality of refereeing.
There seems to be plenty of dispute as to the "quality" of any particular referee after a big rugby match. Moreover, to my untrained eye, in many passages of play in rugby, there seem to be a number of (possible) infringements committed and its the personal choice of the referee as to which one (if any) he actually calls - hence the importance of "playing the referee."
As for respect, I was interested to learn from an acquaintance who played AIL rugby in its heyday (before the Provinces took over) and continues to turn out for his local team's fifths that, down the food chain, a rugby referee's position is not all that dissimilar to a gaa referee in terms of backchat from players (and, indeed, the odd free-for-all).
When you think about it, the on-field structure of both hurling and football make them very hard to referee. The fact that opposing players "mark" each other rather than space means that a referee has to try and keep an eye on the players as well as simply following the ball. So, when a ball is cleared, he has to keep an eye on the players from where the ball is coming (so there are no afters) and the players on where the ball is going to (no wee pulls on the jersey/belts before the ball arrives) and, presumably, the ball itself (sort of).
A couple of observations on Kilkenny (the greatest team to have played the game).
1. Kilkenny, by their own admission, revel on "playing on the edge" and attempt to play the referee. If so, they have to accept that, on occasion, they will be pulled up for things - if you play on the edge, occasionally you topple over.
2. With the increase in physicality and contact, the parallels with rugby increase i.e. in any particular passage of play, there might be a number of fouls and you are down then to the referee's discretion rather than the strict application of the rules.
3. It seems to have become a pattern that some Kilkenny great (Eddie Keher, Willie O'Connor, whomever) comes out with some line about "manliness" and/or "letting the game" flow in the run up to a big game. Now why would that happen? Several commentators have observed that hurling is referred very differently as between the start and end of the year.
4. With the passage of time, if anything, it seems as if Kilkenny have become more sensitive to criticism as the All-Irelands mount up. I don't really understand this when one would think the proper response to any criticism is to point to the medal haul.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 02, 2014, 02:01:21 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 02, 2014, 01:44:47 PM
Rugby should be the role model for all sports with regard to treatment of referees and the quality of refereeing.
Jaysus Asal, I don't know about that. Fair enough about the 'treatment' of referees, they certainly never seem to be running off the pitch with a horde of players and fans running after them, even in Thomond Park, but I've seen over the past 4 or 5 years a lot more 'backchat' to refs. It's still minor compared to soccer, which is the worst, and the GAA but it's creeping in.
As regards the quality of referees, I think that's just like any other sport. Some Good, and quite a few Bad. And if the GAA is bad for 'interpretation', rugby is 100 times worse. There's only a few laws of the game, and essentially everything else is interpretation against those laws. Referees vary hugely with regard to what teams get away with at scrum time and the breakdown especially. Kavanagh talking about Kilkenny playing the ref goes on all the time in Rugby.
Does it continue in the media for rugby , AZ?
One of our kids plays under 12 rugby and has been to a few Leinster camps and there is no bullshit and absolutely no backchat to the ref.
I think Cody is like a man who brings the match onto weekday RTE like a match schemozzle that continues onto the car park - why is this tolerated? I have to agree with Nag above who said he is a bully- very sad for a man of his undoubted talent that he has that personality trait.
I was very much in awe of the cats on Saturday but I have to say this week on the board has changed my view of them.
Keher's interventions are similar- why should Kilkenny get away with that? Is it not good enough to win 10 all Irelands ?
Agree with the last two post, I think that it's important that B Cody, Keher and O connor are made to realise that the hurling General public are not that stupid. No need to bring politics type spin to the table to try and win a tight game. I wouldn't have any particular views on Sheedy but fair play to him for keeping his council after Kerwin in 09.
Kikenny still the greatest for sure but just a little bit more tarnished on Monday than Saturday night
KK will be loving the criticism they and Cody are getting now. I'd nearly swear it was all planned. Love them or loathe them, it's 10 out of 15 now, the latest one by a team of over the hill old lads who are a dirty shower.
;)