Should we? Can't say I see the point of one. We'd be doing well if we got more than 30% yes in the north. The place is nowhere near ready for reunification. The north is still too divided, institutions are still unstable because the unionists keep threatening to throw the rattle out of the pram over stupid issues, and democracy hasn't put down deep enough roots yet.
The south is still sorting out a clusterf**k of a financial mess because of the bank bailout, its political system is corrupted by big-shots and parish pump special interests, and the rule of law isn't exactly strong.
It's going to take a while to sort all that out, and I'm not seeing much signs of progress on a lot of it, particularly divisions in the north.
No need for one. Sure we'll all be Europeans soon enough.
Nah there is too much apathy around 'Nationalists' to reunite Ireland. They're too happy with the NHS/Free Education and the economy as it is to leave the Union.
Mostly due to lack of leadership from both Nationalist parties I must say. I think we are much further behind Scotland in terms of will to leave the Union.
Allied to that there isn't a hope in hell the Free State would let us join!
You'd need a poll before we get that far - do you want to break from the Union. If there's a yes, then there'd be 10 years of a NI independent state before you could even think about a border poll.
A one-off border poll now would alienate a third of the population who don't want Britain nor Ireland.
What's in it for us ?.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on September 20, 2014, 11:51:11 PM
Should we? Can't say I see the point of one. We'd be doing well if we got more than 30% yes in the north. The place is nowhere near ready for reunification. The north is still too divided, institutions are still unstable because the unionists keep threatening to throw the rattle out of the pram over stupid issues, and democracy hasn't put down deep enough roots yet.
The south is still sorting out a clusterf**k of a financial mess because of the bank bailout, its political system is corrupted by big-shots and parish pump special interests, and the rule of law isn't exactly strong.
It's going to take a while to sort all that out, and I'm not seeing much signs of progress on a lot of it, particularly divisions in the north.
And Sinn Féin is such an amazing party!!!! ::)
The really relevant question here is why the British Government let the whole of Scotland decide by means of a vote,whether or not they wish to maintain the union,but has never allowed the whole of Ireland the same basic democratic right,and worse than that,no politician North or South has pointed out this anomaly.
Nail on head Mr Fearon. Any poll should include the 32 counties.
Interestingly the Welsh are joining the Scots in asserting their national interests , unlike the Dublin Govt who lump the Northern part of this island under "Foreign Affairs" and bleat on about how relationships between the "Republic" and UK have never been better. >:(
Quote from: T Fearon on September 21, 2014, 09:32:32 AM
The really relevant question here is why the British Government let the whole of Scotland decide by means of a vote,whether or not they wish to maintain the union,but has never allowed the whole of Ireland the same basic democratic right,
The difference in attitude from 1914 to 2014 perhaps.
We've decided to accept the Good Friday Agreement which lets the 6 Cos decide firstly :-\
According to Private Eye 80% of NHS spending goes to the treatment of chronic disease for the over 80s.
Gordon Brown promised free treatment at point of need forever under the UK but it all depends on how unwell the next generation of old people is. It is the same issue as funding pensions.
The NHS will more than likely be bankrupted by obesity within 30 years.
Obesity is a political issue.
A poll be interesting to see how far off the pace the search for unity is, personally at the minute its not a good idea, we could get as little as 30% for, which would kill any future poll off for maybe another 20yrs. Best to let it lie to the economic things both sides of the border pick up. But the same scare mongering that went on in Scotland, reduced pension, higher living costs, no nhs would go badly against any proposed yes vote.
A poll showing the population of the six counties is as divided as the people of Scotland (which we all know they are) would force significant change with the pressure all on unionism to modernise and act on behalf of everyone not just their own tribe
Quote from: T Fearon on September 21, 2014, 07:20:43 PM
A poll showing the population of the six counties is as divided as the people of Scotland (which we all know they are) would force significant change with the pressure all on unionism to modernise and act on behalf of everyone not just their own tribe
Unionism is a total mess at the moment. They lose so many talented young graduates and are left with the rest. Is there even 1 decent unionist politician ?
I actually think there are quite a few,but whenever they try to reach out they are challenged by the hard liners and have to revert to tribalism
Quote from: T Fearon on September 21, 2014, 09:32:32 AM
The really relevant question here is why the British Government let the whole of Scotland decide by means of a vote,whether or not they wish to maintain the union,but has never allowed the whole of Ireland the same basic democratic right,and worse than that,no politician North or South has pointed out this anomaly.
Well the people of Ireland voted for the GFA, which sets out the basis for such a referendum. The people of Scotland only got their vote when the SNP got a majority in their devolved assembly - the same will happen here if the combined SF/SDLP vote gets a majority at Stormont. Without such a scenario, there's absolutely no point in holding a referendum - it's a waste of everyone's time.
Isn't it up to the Northern Secretary of State to decide on when to hold a Border Poll? Why their discretion if so?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 21, 2014, 09:58:08 PM
Isn't it up to the Northern Secretary of State to decide on when to hold a Border Poll? Why their discretion if so?
Yes, it is. Because that's what the parties negotiated and agreed to and the electorate signed up to in the GFA.
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 21, 2014, 10:49:16 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 21, 2014, 09:58:08 PM
Isn't it up to the Northern Secretary of State to decide on when to hold a Border Poll? Why their discretion if so?
Yes, it is. Because that's what the parties negotiated and agreed to and the electorate signed up to in the GFA.
So the Nationalists may be waiting for a very long time (depending on the outlook of the Sec. of State)?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 21, 2014, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 21, 2014, 10:49:16 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 21, 2014, 09:58:08 PM
Isn't it up to the Northern Secretary of State to decide on when to hold a Border Poll? Why their discretion if so?
Yes, it is. Because that's what the parties negotiated and agreed to and the electorate signed up to in the GFA.
So the Nationalists may be waiting for a very long time (depending on the outlook of the Sec. of State)?
As long as he waits until such times as it's not a complete waste of time that unnecessarily raises tensions in our communities, then we are all the better for it too.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 21, 2014, 10:55:53 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 21, 2014, 10:49:16 PM
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 21, 2014, 09:58:08 PM
Isn't it up to the Northern Secretary of State to decide on when to hold a Border Poll? Why their discretion if so?
Yes, it is. Because that's what the parties negotiated and agreed to and the electorate signed up to in the GFA.
So the Nationalists may be waiting for a very long time (depending on the outlook of the Sec. of State)?
Until the Nationalist vote hits 50%. But what's the point in pushing for one before that point anyway?
No point until there's a nationalist majority in Stormont. I also think we need another generatin of peace. To be blunt I think we need the whole troubles generation to die off.
Is anything being planned up north for the 100th anniversary of 1916 ? The 50th anniversary was when Paisley got one of his first breaks.
Quote from: seafoid on September 21, 2014, 07:50:21 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on September 21, 2014, 07:20:43 PM
A poll showing the population of the six counties is as divided as the people of Scotland (which we all know they are) would force significant change with the pressure all on unionism to modernise and act on behalf of everyone not just their own tribe
Unionism is a total mess at the moment. They lose so many talented young graduates and are left with the rest. Is there even 1 decent unionist politician ?
Decent Unionist: an oxymoron if ever I heard one.
Let's have a border poll, if only to kick start the process of having one every 7 years, as per the GFA. At least, every 7 years we will see a progress report or otherwise as to where we stand in relation to the demand for a reunited Ireland.
The Scottish Referendum and the promises made by the Brits has changed forever the shape of the Union. I mentioned in another thread an article last week in the Irish News by Newton Emerson illustrated how a UI would stack up financially. Anyone who believes for a moment that English tax payers are going to continue to pay for the public sector in NI needs their head examined. All the jobs that were created here in the troubles because we were a basket case will not be funded indefinitely. The out working of the granting of further powers to Scotland will mean that English MP's only will get to decide on these matters. The financial subvention will also be reduced as the Barnett formula is rejigged.
As for our Nationalist Parties, of which there are 3 including FF they need to start working out what an AI will look like. How it will accomodate a minority Unionist population, how it will be funded, how it will retain links with GB and reflect Britishness which is important to a sizeable number on this Island. A poll is necessary to give them a base from which to work. But it will be difficult to get a Unionist Secretary of State to call one. And that does not even touch on the work required to get people in the South to say yes.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 22, 2014, 02:21:36 PM
The Scottish Referendum and the promises made by the Brits has changed forever the shape of the Union. I mentioned in another thread an article last week in the Irish News by Newton Emerson illustrated how a UI would stack up financially. Anyone who believes for a moment that English tax payers are going to continue to pay for the public sector in NI needs their head examined. All the jobs that were created here in the troubles because we were a basket case will not be funded indefinitely. The out working of the granting of further powers to Scotland will mean that English MP's only will get to decide on these matters. The financial subvention will also be reduced as the Barnett formula is rejigged.
As for our Nationalist Parties, of which there are 3 including FF they need to start working out what an AI will look like. How it will accomodate a minority Unionist population, how it will be funded, how it will retain links with GB and reflect Britishness which is important to a sizeable number on this Island. A poll is necessary to give them a base from which to work. But it will be difficult to get a Unionist Secretary of State to call one. And that does not even touch on the work required to get people in the South to say yes.
No work required. Just hide Fearon for a few months.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 22, 2014, 02:21:36 PM
The Scottish Referendum and the promises made by the Brits has changed forever the shape of the Union. I mentioned in another thread an article last week in the Irish News by Newton Emerson illustrated how a UI would stack up financially. Anyone who believes for a moment that English tax payers are going to continue to pay for the public sector in NI needs their head examined. All the jobs that were created here in the troubles because we were a basket case will not be funded indefinitely. The out working of the granting of further powers to Scotland will mean that English MP's only will get to decide on these matters. The financial subvention will also be reduced as the Barnett formula is rejigged.
As for our Nationalist Parties, of which there are 3 including FF they need to start working out what an AI will look like. How it will accomodate a minority Unionist population, how it will be funded, how it will retain links with GB and reflect Britishness which is important to a sizeable number on this Island. A poll is necessary to give them a base from which to work. But it will be difficult to get a Unionist Secretary of State to call one. And that does not even touch on the work required to get people in the South to say yes.
Good post. There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade I reckon the referendum will take place within the next 15-20 years.
Quote from: balladmaker on September 22, 2014, 11:21:27 AM
Let's have a border poll, if only to kick start the process of having one every 7 years, as per the GFA. At least, every 7 years we will see a progress report or otherwise as to where we stand in relation to the demand for a reunited Ireland.
There is no requirement in the GFA to have a poll every 7 years. 7 years is the minimum gap between polls. It could be much longer between polls.
England will subsidise Northern Ireland indefinitely. I heard my wife and our neighbour expressing relief about the referendum result even though both see Scotland as a nation of parasites. They just can't bear the thought of further erosion of the empire and are content to pay the price to keep it. Please note that the question of whether Scotland is in reality a nation of parasites is not the point. The point is that they both see it that way yet don't want Scotland to leave. Much the same is true of Northern Ireland.
emmm lets see
Quote from: deiseach on September 22, 2014, 03:29:25 PM
England will subsidise Northern Ireland indefinitely. I heard my wife and our neighbour expressing relief about the referendum result even though both see Scotland as a nation of parasites. They just can't bear the thought of further erosion of the empire and are content to pay the price to keep it. Please note that the question of whether Scotland is in reality a nation of parasites is not the point. The point is that they both see it that way yet don't want Scotland to leave. Much the same is true of Northern Ireland.
I'm not sure that NI is seen in the same light as Scotland. But even if it were, the higher level of subsidy to NI will come under pressure from Scotland and Wales and the north of England/Cornwall etc will be looking at the help given these places. More attention will come to these issues, which is a good thing.
Quote from: deiseach on September 22, 2014, 03:29:25 PM
England will subsidise Northern Ireland indefinitely. I heard my wife and our neighbour expressing relief about the referendum result even though both see Scotland as a nation of parasites. They just can't bear the thought of further erosion of the empire and are content to pay the price to keep it. Please note that the question of whether Scotland is in reality a nation of parasites is not the point. The point is that they both see it that way yet don't want Scotland to leave. Much the same is true of Northern Ireland.
What if London starts asking for more money, Deiseach ? I am not sure English people are that pushed about the Unionists any more.
Quote from: T Fearon on September 21, 2014, 09:32:32 AM
The really relevant question here is why the British Government let the whole of Scotland decide by means of a vote,whether or not they wish to maintain the union,but has never allowed the whole of Ireland the same basic democratic right,and worse than that,no politician North or South has pointed out this anomaly.
What anomaly? Only the six counties are a part of the UK, and thus equivalent to the Scottish. How would the other 26 vote to maintain the union when we are not part of it? We all agreed to leave it up to yourselves in the wee six when we ratified the good friday agreement.
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
I agree that up until recently their economic policies were either non existent or didn't stack up. However that has begun to change as there is a dawning realisation that there is the possibility of forming part of the Irish government, if not in the next election then certainly the next but one. They have a lot of educated young people joining the party at the moment as they look to capitalise on a FF performance that has been abysmal in opposition and a present government that has very little goodwill either. Most likely the real push for power won't be completely viable until Adams steps down but it will happen sooner or later.
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 06:39:14 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
I agree that up until recently their economic policies were either non existent or didn't stack up. However that has begun to change
Obviously not in roscommon/Sth Laythrum ;) as that ad is in last Wekk's Ros Herald for the By election of 10th October.
Quote from: balladmaker on September 22, 2014, 11:21:27 AM
Let's have a border poll, if only to kick start the process of having one every 7 years, as per the GFA. At least, every 7 years we will see a progress report or otherwise as to where we stand in relation to the demand for a reunited Ireland.
If only people would actually
read the GFA.
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 22, 2014, 02:21:36 PM
The Scottish Referendum and the promises made by the Brits has changed forever the shape of the Union. I mentioned in another thread an article last week in the Irish News by Newton Emerson illustrated how a UI would stack up financially. Anyone who believes for a moment that English tax payers are going to continue to pay for the public sector in NI needs their head examined. All the jobs that were created here in the troubles because we were a basket case will not be funded indefinitely. The out working of the granting of further powers to Scotland will mean that English MP's only will get to decide on these matters. The financial subvention will also be reduced as the Barnett formula is rejigged.
As for our Nationalist Parties, of which there are 3 including FF they need to start working out what an AI will look like. How it will accomodate a minority Unionist population, how it will be funded, how it will retain links with GB and reflect Britishness which is important to a sizeable number on this Island. A poll is necessary to give them a base from which to work. But it will be difficult to get a Unionist Secretary of State to call one. And that does not even touch on the work required to get people in the South to say yes.
Good post. There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade I reckon the referendum will take place within the next 15-20 years.
But they're keeping it to themselves?
The big laugh about the whole thing is Unionists bleating about the partition of the island of Britain whilst demanding the continued partition of Ireland.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 23, 2014, 12:22:45 PM
The big laugh about the whole thing is Unionists bleating about the partition of the island of Britain whilst demanding the continued partition of Ireland.
Exactly. Which means that both the Yes and No arguments in the Scottish debate can be re-used for Irish re-unification.
No - dont break up Britain, as we are better together
Yes - the english are a shower and we are better independant
The vast majority of politicians on this island have no vision for or belief in a united Ireland so there's little point in discussing it.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 01:48:52 PM
The vast majority of politicians on this island have no vision for or belief in a united Ireland so there's little point in discussing it.
True there is no vision but it needs discussing. I am a nationalist, and would like to see reunification. At present in a border poll I would probably abstain, I couldn't bring my self to vote no. I would abstain on the basis that any reunification must sit comfortably with all shades of loyalism, note loyalism not unionism. It is from a disaffected loyalist rump that we would have trouble. Nationalist must debate the issue and settle on a plan in the first instance before we can convince others. Unfortunately the pygmies in the SDLP are to busy looking after their own interests to even begin a debate with the Shinners. As for the Shinners they need to realise that a 32 County Socialist Republic is not going to happen, they will need to move more to the middle ground politically and economically. Some credible policies would help.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
Standing up for plain people would be lovely and wonderful and I'm all for someone to do so.
All SF are saying is in effect "we'll take in much less income and spend a lot more". Try that in your own household and see how it goes. I don't hate SF by the way.
That was tried in 1977 by FF and we saw how that went.
As for "groupthink" - I'm merely expressing my own opinion based on common sense.
I voted for Ming by the way.
PS - your point about running public services better without more cash - please contact Leo at the Dept of Health with any ideas.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
It's easy to stand up for the ordinary people when you're in opposition and you don't actually have to deliver. See what SF did in the north on the Public Sector pensions, or what they did with the rates hike for Strabane Council. Things are very different in the real world.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
How did they stand up for the "ordinary people" in the North when they voted through the public service pensions bill?
Pretty sure that was a "savage Tory cut" that they implemented.
Quote from: Kidder81 on September 23, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
How did they stand up for the "ordinary people" in the North when they voted through the public service pensions bill?
Pretty sure that was a "savage Tory cut" that they implemented.
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on September 23, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
How did they stand up for the "ordinary people" in the North when they voted through the public service pensions bill?
Pretty sure that was a "savage Tory cut" that they implemented.
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
What an ignorant and broad-brushed comment. If public sector workers aren't among the ordinary people in this country, then who exactly are the ordinary people?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2014, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on September 23, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
How did they stand up for the "ordinary people" in the North when they voted through the public service pensions bill?
Pretty sure that was a "savage Tory cut" that they implemented.
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
What an ignorant and broad-brushed comment. If public sector workers aren't among the ordinary people in this country, then who exactly are the ordinary people?
People who work in the private sector for lesser wages, no pension and none of the 6 months fully paid sick leave.
The private sector wages would typically be higher for similarly skilled workers, the public sector obviously offers other benefits then such as holidays, flexi & pensions
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 12:30:53 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2014, 12:26:04 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Quote from: Kidder81 on September 23, 2014, 06:58:16 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 23, 2014, 12:47:46 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 22, 2014, 05:58:31 PM
Quote from: yellowcard on September 22, 2014, 03:09:22 PM
There is a definite opening for the party that sets out an economically viable strategy to sell the general public the feasibility of the reunification of the country. I think Sinn Fein have begun this strategy a good number of years ago and if they can attract fresh thinking strategist and gain power in the south in the next decade .....
SF's advert for their candidate in the Ros/S Laythrum By election tells us that SF is opposed to Austerity, Cuts, Water Chargse and Property Tax. Next sentence tells us they will improve Public Services.
Sad thing is up to 20% of the Population in the 26 Cos believe this hocus pocus :(
Whose lies do you believe so?
On the issue you brought up - unless you believe that public services are being run at optimum efficiency then of course they can be improved without injection of additional cash. However, you hate SF so just jump on anything to say "be scared of them, they'll ruin us" - even though we're in a perpetual cycle of ruination thanks to FF/FG/LAB as it is.
Your post is a typical example of group think that screws us up all the time in the 26 counties. You can't do that/that won't work....maybe it won't but by fcuk what FF/FG/LAB have done over the past 50 years has definitely not worked so why stick with them? Definition of stupidity. I'm far from a SF supporter by the way. It half irritates me that they seem to be the main party who stand up for ordinary people.
How did they stand up for the "ordinary people" in the North when they voted through the public service pensions bill?
Pretty sure that was a "savage Tory cut" that they implemented.
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
What an ignorant and broad-brushed comment. If public sector workers aren't among the ordinary people in this country, then who exactly are the ordinary people?
People who work in the private sector for lesser wages, no pension and none of the 6 months fully paid sick leave.
Some work for lesser wages, although are they doing the same job?
Some have no pension.
I'm not arguing that public sector workers don't have good conditions, nor am I arguing that pensions could remain as they were. And I don't think a public vs private sector workers debate is particularly useful here.
But your point that public sector workers aren't "ordinary people" has no logic. How is a teacher, classroom assistant, binman, nurse, bus-driver etc. not among the "ordinary people"?
But anyway, if you want to forget about the term "ordinary worker", and get back to the crux of the issue. It was about a party that says one thing, but does another - see November 2011 (a quick Google for 'SF support strike action'):
http://www.westtyronesinnfein.com/news/21031
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15773628
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
This type of inaccurate broad brush statement is a sure sign that the poster in interested in ranting and not discussion of the topic at hand.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector
are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
Quote from: armaghniac on September 24, 2014, 02:44:39 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
This type of inaccurate broad brush statement is a sure sign that the poster in interested in ranting and not discussion of the topic at hand.
The topic in hand is Irish Unity and a border poll. That was my opinion you are entitled to differ.
QuoteIf a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
Can a teacher do this?
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 23, 2014, 02:45:50 PM
. Nationalist must debate the issue and settle on a plan in the first instance before we can convince others.
All parties who claim to be for a United Ireland should now be producing a broad idea of what it would look like especially arrangements for the 6 Cos and the "Ulster British" ( as they would likely call themselves) residents thereof in the new Ireland.
The 2021 Census in the North will likely show a Majority from a "Nationalist/Catholic/Irish" background.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 24, 2014, 03:19:08 PM
QuoteIf a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
Can a teacher do this?
Where have you been sleeping, its been all over the news, especially as it then makes employing new teachers more difficult.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
So just who/what is ordinary? And how should that dictate how we treat those who are ordinary and those who aren't?
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:01 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
So just who/what is ordinary? And how should that dictate how we treat those who are ordinary and those who aren't?
The point lost in all this debate over who is most ordinary is this. Responsible governments do not continue to employ large numbers of public servants if they can't afford them and the pensions and benefits that go with them.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 25, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
The point lost in all this debate over who is most ordinary is this. Responsible governments do not continue to employ large numbers of public servants if they can't afford them and the pensions and benefits that go with them.
If they do so, it is a failing of those who elect the government, the public in general and not those who work for it.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 25, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:01 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
So just who/what is ordinary? And how should that dictate how we treat those who are ordinary and those who aren't?
The point lost in all this debate over who is most ordinary is this. Responsible governments do not continue to employ large numbers of public servants if they can't afford them and the pensions and benefits that go with them.
You're the one who made a distinction between public sector workers and 'ordinary' people.
And what do these responsible governments do? Contract the work out to the private sector? Tell me how well that works.
Was chatting to a mate of mine recently and he said that for him to earn the same pension as his wife he would need to be putting away 75% of his earnings and he makes a considerable amount more than his wife.
I'm all for Public Servants getting recognised for what they do but surely horsing out pensions that size is not sustainable especially when people are living for longer!!
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 25, 2014, 12:07:53 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 25, 2014, 09:57:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on September 24, 2014, 03:57:01 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
So just who/what is ordinary? And how should that dictate how we treat those who are ordinary and those who aren't?
The point lost in all this debate over who is most ordinary is this. Responsible governments do not continue to employ large numbers of public servants if they can't afford them and the pensions and benefits that go with them.
You're the one who made a distinction between public sector workers and 'ordinary' people.
And what do these responsible governments do? Contract the work out to the private sector? Tell me how well that works.
Government needs to drive the same types efficiencies and joined up government that can take money away from duplication and unnecessary red tape and funnel it into frontline services.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
educate yourself before you come on spouting nonsense:
http://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/publicsectorpensions.pdf
Quote from: screenexile on September 25, 2014, 12:11:38 PM
Was chatting to a mate of mine recently and he said that for him to earn the same pension as his wife he would need to be putting away 75% of his earnings and he makes a considerable amount more than his wife.
This could only be true if he is only proposing to contribute for less than 40 years. His wife would not receive a full pension either if she did not contribute for 40 years, unless she is in the fire brigade.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 25, 2014, 12:19:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
educate yourself before you come on spouting nonsense:
http://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/publicsectorpensions.pdf
Ah yes because Trade Unions are notoriously balanced in their viewpoint when it's an issue that directly affects all their members. . .
Quote from: screenexile on September 25, 2014, 01:37:51 PM
Ah yes because Trade Unions are notoriously balanced in their viewpoint when it's an issue that directly affects all their members. . .
Of course they have a point of view, but they probably haven't included any actual falsehoods, unlike much of media commentary.
Errrr..... ladeens what's all this got to do with whether we should or shouldn't have a Border Poll?
Quote from: Rossfan on September 25, 2014, 03:41:11 PM
Errrr..... ladeens what's all this got to do with whether we should or shouldn't have a Border Poll?
I imagine falsehoods and distortions of the truth will play a large part in the border poll debate.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 25, 2014, 12:19:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
educate yourself before you come on spouting nonsense:
http://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/publicsectorpensions.pdf
Hardly a balanced view!
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 25, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 25, 2014, 12:19:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
educate yourself before you come on spouting nonsense:
http://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/publicsectorpensions.pdf
Hardly a balanced view!
Not if you read it on its own. Similarly not if you read
your comments on their own. The truth is somewhere in between.
This is the sort of stuff to which I refer:
This is from Irish News:
"Health Minister Edwin Poots is demanding answers from the new CEO of the body that runs the north's health service."
this body employs 550 staff, not one on the frontline. Salaries total £25,000,000. Thats an average of £45,000, quite a bit over the minimum wage. The salaries have increased by 25% in the last year. In the same period the same body reduced the district nursing budget by 12%...go figure.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 25, 2014, 04:35:46 PM
This is the sort of stuff to which I refer:
This is from Irish News:
"Health Minister Edwin Poots is demanding answers from the new CEO of the body that runs the north's health service."
this body employs 550 staff, not one on the frontline. Salaries total £25,000,000. Thats an average of £45,000, quite a bit over the minimum wage. The salaries have increased by 25% in the last year. In the same period the same body reduced the district nursing budget by 12%...go figure.
That's fair comment. But the district nurses, included in the sweeping statements, have to work harder because of this.
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 25, 2014, 03:57:13 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on September 25, 2014, 12:19:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 02:47:01 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 24, 2014, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on September 24, 2014, 11:32:56 AM
Those in receipt of Public Service pensions are hardly ordinary people, more a cosseted bunch of inefficient workers.
If they're getting pensions they are no longer workers. ;)
As for cossetted and inefficient - try driving an ambulance, working in an A & E or teaching 4 year olds instead of repeating oul broad stroke cliches.
I am not denying that many of those you have mentioned do good work and are deserving of the rewards. But that hardly makes them ordinary people. Many in the public sector are over paid. The public sector is too large and we cannot afford it. The health service has far too many managers and not enough frontline staff. There is too much overlap between Govt Depts many working at odds. So if SF recognise this then thats a sign of their maturing as a political party. The publc service is inefficient and there needs to be equality. If a teacher is ordinary, how can they retire at 50 take a full pension and then return as a sub?
educate yourself before you come on spouting nonsense:
http://www.tuc.org.uk/sites/default/files/extras/publicsectorpensions.pdf
Hardly a balanced view!
Whereas you throw in myths and legends that would embarrass the Daily Mail and expect to go unchallenged? You quote a line from the Irish News, but then proceed to summarise in your own words, so really we're none the wiser what that article says. Whatever, I can assure you that the average wage in the public sector is nowhere near £40k. Are there too many managers in the health service? Quite possibly, but whose fault is that? Successive governments have taken target setting in education and health to extremes, and when you have targets, you need people to monitor, measure and report on them. You also need squads of people to monitor, measure and report on the budgets that fund all this. And then you end up with organisations that forget what they're about - schools that exclude difficult young people, because they want to climb the school league tables, hospitals that turf sick people out too quickly in order to meet their time targets.
If them sick people would only stay away from the Hospitals........
why would anyone in the 26 counties vote for a united ireland? Would they want to pay the higher taxes to subsidise public service provision in the north but not get the same services themselves? And then there is the cost of policing the thing. A united ireland won't come quietly. Not justifying that sort of reaction but you can be sure it will happen and the south would pay more than just a financial cost (There is a dimension to the irish question that did not arise in the scottish question)
Or would northern services be stripped back? If so why would the nordies vote for that? If northerners thought that they would have to pay VAT on their basic neccessities (overnight inflation of 13.5%) they would run a mile. Are any southern parties going to fund the country without their vat on food etc revenues?
Talk of a poll is delusional. Anybody who thinks the results would be interesting can start a fund raiser to pay for it
Quote from: LCohen on September 25, 2014, 08:24:31 PM
why would anyone in the 26 counties vote for a united ireland? Would they want to pay the higher taxes to subsidise public service provision in the north but not get the same services themselves? And then there is the cost of policing the thing. A united ireland won't come quietly. Not justifying that sort of reaction but you can be sure it will happen and the south would pay more than just a financial cost (There is a dimension to the irish question that did not arise in the scottish question)
QuoteIf northerners thought that they would have to pay VAT on their basic neccessities (overnight inflation of 13.5%) they would run a mile. Are any southern parties going to fund the country without their vat on food etc revenues?
That's par for the course for these threads. Serious points conflated with a point of detail that is a swings and roundabouts situation.
There is a real issue with the overall deficit in NI, differences in tax structure etc balance out for the most part.
Quote from: armaghniac on September 25, 2014, 08:42:54 PM
Quote from: LCohen on September 25, 2014, 08:24:31 PM
why would anyone in the 26 counties vote for a united ireland? Would they want to pay the higher taxes to subsidise public service provision in the north but not get the same services themselves? And then there is the cost of policing the thing. A united ireland won't come quietly. Not justifying that sort of reaction but you can be sure it will happen and the south would pay more than just a financial cost (There is a dimension to the irish question that did not arise in the scottish question)
QuoteIf northerners thought that they would have to pay VAT on their basic neccessities (overnight inflation of 13.5%) they would run a mile. Are any southern parties going to fund the country without their vat on food etc revenues?
That's par for the course for these threads. Serious points conflated with a point of detail that is a swings and roundabouts situation.
There is a real issue with the overall deficit in NI, differences in tax structure etc balance out for the most part.
Wah????????
What is the level of personal taxation in the south? The real one when VAT, health costs, property tax etc etc etc is included? How does this compare with the North? How do services match up?
Far form balancing up.
QuoteWhat is the level of personal taxation in the south? The real one when VAT, health costs, property tax etc etc etc is included? How does this compare with the North? How do services match up?
Income tax is lower for most people, although it is a bit higher for the well paid, and property tax only half of rates in NI. Swings and roundabouts, as I said, but no doubt unless I enumerate each tax in great detail you'll keep coming back with further data free statements. If you are claiming some great difference then why do you not produce the data?
NI is no paradise, I see no great surge of people from the 26 counties trying to get in.
I'm sure there's plenty of people in the Republic who would vote against a 32 county Ireland. Never met one, though.