Below is a link to a video put together by Wexford GAA of the frees given against Wexford in the second half of their qualifier game against Laois. It's very well done and gives the viewer a pretty clear picture of whether the frees were justified. I've only watched it once but of the 13 frees awarded I reckon only 2 or 3 were definitely correct (and one of them was over carrying by a Wexford player), one or two more were 50:50 but the majority were not even close to frees. Have a look and see what you think but I would hope referees are shown this footage and held accountable for their decisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5AcIaY9LA
Let me get this right. Wexford GAA, officially, have compiled a video of the frees given against them, and put it on you tube? Are they well in the head?
Did they show tackles they made which weren't frees and should have been, or frees against Laois which weren't frees?
This is madness.
Its not madness, imo its a very welcome step, and fair play to them.
One of the biggest problems in the gaa is in game regulation - refereeing etc. We all know there are tons of problems with it. How can it be right that very regularly when the whistle is blown, noone has an idea what way the free is going? Or that a losing team suddenly starts to get frees out of nowhere? It needs to be said, and dealt with, and this from Wexford is doing the GAA a service by highlighting a clear issue, which hopefully may start the ball rolling on having something done about it.
Appears so. Not sure why you think it's madness AZ, I know it won't achieve anything regarding the result but it does highlight refereeing issues.
Anyway, I've looked at it again and there are 13 frees so here's my take on them.
1. 50:50 - soft free
2. No free
3. Free but Laois no. 14 fouled first by slide tackling while a Wexford man's hands were down so should have been a free for Wexford.
4. Free, hand on back but a soft one to give.
5. Free, grabbing the Laois man's arm
6. Free, steps
7. No free
8. No free
9. Free, high tackle
10. No free
11. No free
12. No free
13. No free
By my reckoning that's 8 poor decisions, with 2 soft ones and one for over carrying. So of the 12 calls made on tackling the ref only got 4 right, of which 2 were soft. Is a 33.33% of right calls acceptable for an inter county referee?
Don't know what 7 was given for, 11 and 13 were soft but the rest looked like fouls.
Hilarious that they put number 6 in when the player tooks at least 10 steps :o
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:06:41 PM
Below is a link to a video put together by Wexford GAA of the frees given against Wexford in the second half of their qualifier game against Laois. It's very well done and gives the viewer a pretty clear picture of whether the frees were justified. I've only watched it once but of the 13 frees awarded I reckon only 2 or 3 were definitely correct (and one of them was over carrying by a Wexford player), one or two more were 50:50 but the majority were not even close to frees. Have a look and see what you think but I would hope referees are shown this footage and held accountable for their decisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5AcIaY9LA
1 - Free, Wexford lad (briefly) pulls back Laois lad's arm.
2 - No free
3 - Should have been a Wexford free for overcarrying by Sheehan, or the slide tackle by Kingston. After that though, #6 pulls back the Laois forward.
4 - Soft free, but #12 has his hand on the back of the Laois lad, and it probably looked like a push.
5 - #2 pulls back #15.
6 - #6 takes 8 steps
7 - Very soft. No free at all that I can see.
8 - Soft again, but in fairness he runs at the player without looking at the ball, and then when he gets there he more or less wraps his two arms around him.
9 - Slap in the face
10 - Very soft, but again Wexford are very 'grabby' in their tackling technique.
11 - Very soft again, but the ref is going to see the hand on the left shoulder. They are lazy to remove their hands from the tackle.
12 - Number 8 kneels down and actually lies on the Laois lad, not letting him up.
13 - Again, soft but the arms are around him and the #5 looks like he's pulling him down.
I can see why they are aggrieved, but I can also see what the ref might have seen in a fair few of those instances. They need to be crisper in the tackle too. Leaving your hand in there and grabbing is something some refs are very harsh on.
That said, was this Rory Hickey? He's dire.
Don't know about that Durty Magpie, why would you have given frees for 2, 8, 10 and 12? If they are frees then I would think defenders can do very little in the tackle and to be consistent practically any contact would be a free. The other thing is if that was Wexford and Laois in hurling then none of those tackles would have been fouls bar, possibly, the high tackle. The steps probably wouldn't have been a free either!!
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:08:28 PM
Did they show tackles they made which weren't frees and should have been, or frees against Laois which weren't frees?
Exactly. I can think of some celebrities who could put together a video compilation of themselves in the best possible light/taste. That wouldn't mean they were the victim though.
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
Appears so. Not sure why you think it's madness AZ, I know it won't achieve anything regarding the result but it does highlight refereeing issues.
Anyway, I've looked at it again and there are 13 frees so here's my take on them.
1. 50:50 - soft free
2. No free
3. Free but Laois no. 14 fouled first by slide tackling while a Wexford man's hands were down so should have been a free for Wexford.
4. Free, hand on back but a soft one to give.
5. Free, grabbing the Laois man's arm
6. Free, steps
7. No free
8. No free
9. Free, high tackle
10. No free
11. No free
12. No free
13. No free
By my reckoning that's 8 poor decisions, with 2 soft ones and one for over carrying. So of the 12 calls made on tackling the ref only got 4 right, of which 2 were soft. Is a 33.33% of right calls acceptable for an inter county referee?
Madness because this is an official county board making a video like this public. I can't see any benefit for Wexford in this.
I'm a bit less harsh on him than you. I see two definitely wrong, 5 soft ones but can see why he did it, 1 which should have been a free the other way first.
So I see 3 mistakes out of 13
5 Subjective
5 no doubt frees./
Scandalous performance of decision making, hopefully that is the end of his intercounty career. Num 6 put in to give balance to the piece
A huge % of these should be frees to Wexford for overcarrying by Laois players. The most ignored rule in the book and ignoring it makes life almost impossible for defenders/tacklers.
I agree with haranguerer - fair play to whoever compiled that video. Refereeing is the single biggest problem with gaelic football and they are completely unaccountable. I know it is a tough job but to give some of those calls in an intercounty championship game is criminal. It wouldn't be so bad if both sides were getting them but by the look of the free count this was not the case.
I knew you'd be in with a spake like that :D
Typical grabby corner backs.
Don't think it's Rory Hickey AZ.
I can see where your coming from on the frees AZ but as you say they are very soft and I would doubt he consistently pulled lads for that level of physicality all day. Even if he did, if that's the threshold for giving a free then there is no contact allowed at all, almost impossible not to have an arm on the body at some point of the tackle and as I pointed out in a previous post, they wouldn't have been frees in hurling which has the same rules.
Deiseach, I'm sure Wexford put it up to highlight their grievances but I'm interested because I think it highlights a very poor refereeing performance. If he was just as bad for Laois then he was getting an incredible amount of calls wrong or at least interpreting tackling in a way that would make GAA non contact sports.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:34:43 PM
I knew you'd be in with a spake like that :D
Typical grabby corner backs.
I'm consistent!
And I'll have you know despite playing a lot of football at corner back I was never dismissed and rarely booked/yellow carded. You would have loved my crisp tackling (ooh er matron!!!).
1. Free... never touched the ball
2. Free... had 3 slaps at the Laois player (2 from behind) and hit the ball on the 4th
3. Free... there were at least 3 frees in the lead up to it
4. Free... didn't touch the ball
5. Free... pulling back
6. Tight... I would have let that go. 8 steps though on the slow m
7. Nope... harsh!
8. Free... never got the ball and pulled him
9. Free... can be no arguments there
10. Not sure... again nobody put a glove on the ball when tackling but it didn't really stop the Laois player
11. Slightly harsh... still though Wexford tackling is abysmal without a hand on the ball again
12. Free... again very little attempt to actually play the ball
13. Free... no touch on the ball and a tackle from behind
Wexford need a few lessons in tackling before looking at the referee. The way I was taught to tackle was wait until the man plays the ball and then get a hand in ON THE BALL. Tackling from behind is a free and making a slap at anything other than the ball is a free. One of the reasons our game has turned into such a poor spectacle in recent times is the fact that teams don't have to tackle properly any more. Then when someone advocates clean tackling they're seen as 'taking the manliness out of the game'.
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
Appears so. Not sure why you think it's madness AZ, I know it won't achieve anything regarding the result but it does highlight refereeing issues.
Anyway, I've looked at it again and there are 13 frees so here's my take on them.
1. 50:50 - soft free
2. No free
3. Free but Laois no. 14 fouled first by slide tackling while a Wexford man's hands were down so should have been a free for Wexford.
4. Free, hand on back but a soft one to give.
5. Free, grabbing the Laois man's arm
6. Free, steps
7. No free
8. No free
9. Free, high tackle
10. No free
11. No free
12. No free
13. No free
By my reckoning that's 8 poor decisions, with 2 soft ones and one for over carrying. So of the 12 calls made on tackling the ref only got 4 right, of which 2 were soft. Is a 33.33% of right calls acceptable for an inter county referee?
Madness because this is an official county board making a video like this public. I can't see any benefit for Wexford in this.
I'm a bit less harsh on him than you. I see two definitely wrong, 5 soft ones but can see why he did it, 1 which should have been a free the other way first.
So I see 3 mistakes out of 13
5 Subjective
5 no doubt frees./
Is that not one of the bigger issues, the fact that 5 out of 13 calls are subjective?
and that even after you guys watching them several times on replay there is still debate as to whether they were fouls or not.
Far to many of the rules are hugely subjective and thats what leads to so much refereeing inconsistancy
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 07, 2014, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
Appears so. Not sure why you think it's madness AZ, I know it won't achieve anything regarding the result but it does highlight refereeing issues.
Anyway, I've looked at it again and there are 13 frees so here's my take on them.
1. 50:50 - soft free
2. No free
3. Free but Laois no. 14 fouled first by slide tackling while a Wexford man's hands were down so should have been a free for Wexford.
4. Free, hand on back but a soft one to give.
5. Free, grabbing the Laois man's arm
6. Free, steps
7. No free
8. No free
9. Free, high tackle
10. No free
11. No free
12. No free
13. No free
By my reckoning that's 8 poor decisions, with 2 soft ones and one for over carrying. So of the 12 calls made on tackling the ref only got 4 right, of which 2 were soft. Is a 33.33% of right calls acceptable for an inter county referee?
Madness because this is an official county board making a video like this public. I can't see any benefit for Wexford in this.
I'm a bit less harsh on him than you. I see two definitely wrong, 5 soft ones but can see why he did it, 1 which should have been a free the other way first.
So I see 3 mistakes out of 13
5 Subjective
5 no doubt frees./
Is that not one of the bigger issues, the fact that 5 out of 13 calls are subjective?
and that even after you guys watching them several times on replay there is still debate as to whether they were fouls or not.
Far to many of the rules are hugely subjective and thats what leads to so much refereeing inconsistancy
]
The rules themselves are not subjective but more the application of them is... the tackle is clearly defined:
QuoteThe Tackle
The Tackle is re-defined as:
"The Tackle is a skill by which a player may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play. The tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. The tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact (such as punching, slapping, arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge) is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact can be a Fair Charge i.e. Shoulder-to-shoulder with at least one foot on the ground. More than one player can tackle the player in possession."
Quote from: screenexile on July 07, 2014, 03:39:26 PM
1. Free... never touched the ball
2. Free... had 3 slaps at the Laois player (2 from behind) and hit the ball on the 4th
3. Free... there were at least 3 frees in the lead up to it
4. Free... didn't touch the ball
5. Free... pulling back
6. Tight... I would have let that go. 8 steps though on the slow m
7. Nope... harsh!
8. Free... never got the ball and pulled him
9. Free... can be no arguments there
10. Not sure... again nobody put a glove on the ball when tackling but it didn't really stop the Laois player
11. Slightly harsh... still though Wexford tackling is abysmal without a hand on the ball again
12. Free... again very little attempt to actually play the ball
13. Free... no touch on the ball and a tackle from behind
Wexford need a few lessons in tackling before looking at the referee. The way I was taught to tackle was wait until the man plays the ball and then get a hand in ON THE BALL. Tackling from behind is a free and making a slap at anything other than the ball is a free. One of the reasons our game has turned into such a poor spectacle in recent times is the fact that teams don't have to tackle properly any more. Then when someone advocates clean tackling they're seen as 'taking the manliness out of the game'.
Jaysus Screen, I wouldn't like you reffing games my club are involved in ;). I would accept that some of the frees I don't consider being frees probably are by a strict interpretation of the rule book but if that is the threshold of fouling then I think there are about 200 fouls per game. I'm not sure I'd agree that teams don't tackle properly anymore, in fact, I think they tackle far better now than they did on the past.
Quote from: screenexile on July 07, 2014, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 07, 2014, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
Appears so. Not sure why you think it's madness AZ, I know it won't achieve anything regarding the result but it does highlight refereeing issues.
Anyway, I've looked at it again and there are 13 frees so here's my take on them.
1. 50:50 - soft free
2. No free
3. Free but Laois no. 14 fouled first by slide tackling while a Wexford man's hands were down so should have been a free for Wexford.
4. Free, hand on back but a soft one to give.
5. Free, grabbing the Laois man's arm
6. Free, steps
7. No free
8. No free
9. Free, high tackle
10. No free
11. No free
12. No free
13. No free
By my reckoning that's 8 poor decisions, with 2 soft ones and one for over carrying. So of the 12 calls made on tackling the ref only got 4 right, of which 2 were soft. Is a 33.33% of right calls acceptable for an inter county referee?
Madness because this is an official county board making a video like this public. I can't see any benefit for Wexford in this.
I'm a bit less harsh on him than you. I see two definitely wrong, 5 soft ones but can see why he did it, 1 which should have been a free the other way first.
So I see 3 mistakes out of 13
5 Subjective
5 no doubt frees./
Is that not one of the bigger issues, the fact that 5 out of 13 calls are subjective?
and that even after you guys watching them several times on replay there is still debate as to whether they were fouls or not.
Far to many of the rules are hugely subjective and thats what leads to so much refereeing inconsistancy
]
The rules themselves are not subjective but more the application of them is... the tackle is clearly defined:
QuoteThe Tackle
The Tackle is re-defined as:
"The Tackle is a skill by which a player may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play. The tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. The tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact (such as punching, slapping, arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge) is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact can be a Fair Charge i.e. Shoulder-to-shoulder with at least one foot on the ground. More than one player can tackle the player in possession."
yet in your assesment of the video you say
QuoteTackling from behind is a free
when nowhere in the rules is that mentioned.
from my viewing of it, about 4 of those where frees (3,5,6,& 9) and the rest were very very soft.
Quote from: screenexile on July 07, 2014, 03:39:26 PM
Wexford need a few lessons in tackling before looking at the referee. The way I was taught to tackle was wait until the man plays the ball and then get a hand in ON THE BALL. Tackling from behind is a free and making a slap at anything other than the ball is a free. One of the reasons our game has turned into such a poor spectacle in recent times is the fact that teams don't have to tackle properly any more. Then when someone advocates clean tackling they're seen as 'taking the manliness out of the game'.
The amount of slapping going on by the Wexford lads was ridiculous. If the Laois lads were doing the same and getting away with it, fair enough. But curiously enough we got about two minutes worth of game footage with which to make a judgement...
If Marty Duffy was refereeing both teams could do one of those videos!
The standard of tackling by the wexford forwards is very poor, most of the those fouls were by forward.
Wexford Gaa be in big trouble if that is in the public domain officially from them.
Very bad form.
Interesting that there is quite a bit of disagreement on which of those are actually fouls, even after repeat viewing. Just shows how difficult it is for refs.
Exactly, and it's not the bare back riding that Wexford seem to believe they were on the end of. That's why I can see no good from this video being released.
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 07, 2014, 03:51:44 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 07, 2014, 03:43:41 PM
Quote from: blewuporstuffed on July 07, 2014, 03:39:38 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:32:00 PM
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:22:05 PM
Appears so. Not sure why you think it's madness AZ, I know it won't achieve anything regarding the result but it does highlight refereeing issues.
Anyway, I've looked at it again and there are 13 frees so here's my take on them.
1. 50:50 - soft free
2. No free
3. Free but Laois no. 14 fouled first by slide tackling while a Wexford man's hands were down so should have been a free for Wexford.
4. Free, hand on back but a soft one to give.
5. Free, grabbing the Laois man's arm
6. Free, steps
7. No free
8. No free
9. Free, high tackle
10. No free
11. No free
12. No free
13. No free
By my reckoning that's 8 poor decisions, with 2 soft ones and one for over carrying. So of the 12 calls made on tackling the ref only got 4 right, of which 2 were soft. Is a 33.33% of right calls acceptable for an inter county referee?
Madness because this is an official county board making a video like this public. I can't see any benefit for Wexford in this.
I'm a bit less harsh on him than you. I see two definitely wrong, 5 soft ones but can see why he did it, 1 which should have been a free the other way first.
So I see 3 mistakes out of 13
5 Subjective
5 no doubt frees./
Is that not one of the bigger issues, the fact that 5 out of 13 calls are subjective?
and that even after you guys watching them several times on replay there is still debate as to whether they were fouls or not.
Far to many of the rules are hugely subjective and thats what leads to so much refereeing inconsistancy
]
The rules themselves are not subjective but more the application of them is... the tackle is clearly defined:
QuoteThe Tackle
The Tackle is re-defined as:
"The Tackle is a skill by which a player may dispossess an opponent or frustrate his objective within the Rules of Fair Play. The tackle is aimed at the ball, not the player. The tackler may use his body to confront the opponent but deliberate bodily contact (such as punching, slapping, arm holding, pushing, tripping, jersey pulling or a full frontal charge) is forbidden. The only deliberate physical contact can be a Fair Charge i.e. Shoulder-to-shoulder with at least one foot on the ground. More than one player can tackle the player in possession."
yet in your assesment of the video you say
QuoteTackling from behind is a free
when nowhere in the rules is that mentioned.
from my viewing of it, about 4 of those where frees (3,5,6,& 9) and the rest were very very soft.
Tackling from behind is a free because you can't get a tackle on the ball!
Quote from: AZOffaly on July 07, 2014, 03:08:28 PM
Let me get this right. Wexford GAA, officially, have compiled a video of the frees given against them, and put it on you tube? Are they well in the head?
Did they show tackles they made which weren't frees and should have been, or frees against Laois which weren't frees?
This is madness.
Madness?
This
Is
WEXFORDDDD!!!
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:48:44 PM
Quote from: screenexile on July 07, 2014, 03:39:26 PM
1. Free... never touched the ball
2. Free... had 3 slaps at the Laois player (2 from behind) and hit the ball on the 4th
3. Free... there were at least 3 frees in the lead up to it
4. Free... didn't touch the ball
5. Free... pulling back
6. Tight... I would have let that go. 8 steps though on the slow m
7. Nope... harsh!
8. Free... never got the ball and pulled him
9. Free... can be no arguments there
10. Not sure... again nobody put a glove on the ball when tackling but it didn't really stop the Laois player
11. Slightly harsh... still though Wexford tackling is abysmal without a hand on the ball again
12. Free... again very little attempt to actually play the ball
13. Free... no touch on the ball and a tackle from behind
Wexford need a few lessons in tackling before looking at the referee. The way I was taught to tackle was wait until the man plays the ball and then get a hand in ON THE BALL. Tackling from behind is a free and making a slap at anything other than the ball is a free. One of the reasons our game has turned into such a poor spectacle in recent times is the fact that teams don't have to tackle properly any more. Then when someone advocates clean tackling they're seen as 'taking the manliness out of the game'.
Jaysus Screen, I wouldn't like you reffing games my club are involved in ;). I would accept that some of the frees I don't consider being frees probably are by a strict interpretation of the rule book but if that is the threshold of fouling then I think there are about 200 fouls per game. I'm not sure I'd agree that teams don't tackle properly anymore, in fact, I think they tackle far better now than they did on the past.
Maybe I am being slightly OTT... in fairness if I had made some of those tackles I would feel aggrieved at them being given.
Let's take the 2nd free for example as you and AZ both thought it wasn't a free. The number 6 is clearly behind the forward yet his fist wraps around the forward and hits him on the chest (could be looked at as 2 frees for missing the ball and a closed fist tackle). He then strikes him twice around the midriff and the back missing the ball and then his 3rd tackle lands on the ball.
In my opinion the Laois forward has too much pace and has gotten past the no. 6, by the rules the no. 6's only option is to try and catch up with the forward and tackle the ball from the side when he solo's/bounces/handpasses/kicks the ball yet he effectively impedes the forwards run by foul means. I think it's highly cynical.
What are your or Az's views on it?
Quote from: Zulu on July 07, 2014, 03:06:41 PM
Have a look and see what you think but I would hope referees are shown this footage and held accountable for their decisions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR5AcIaY9LA
Am I mistaken or is that not what's done already, in the form of a referee's assessor and where possible, using footage?
I think Wexford are daft to go public with this, and it certainly won't endear them to referees in the future either. Bring it up in the committee rooms by all means, but to do so publicly reeks of sour grapes, whether they intended it or not.
Ah sure don't these things even themselves out over the course of a season........
Sounds like sour strawberries from the yella bellies...
It's all a bit silly really.
The issue is consistency across refs. That Hughes lad from crossmaglen would not have given any if those as frees. Marty Duffy would have given them all but at least 50% to the opposition. Referrees need to get consistent.
I was at this game. What the video doesn't show is the 30 unfair decisions that Wexford got in their favour. So if you take away the 3 or 4 that went against them then you see that they should keep their mouths should and fell lucky they didn't lose by 25 points. Oh and clean up your accents aswell, stop being so surprised all the time.
Laois need to release their own video in response.
Quote from: Jinxy on July 07, 2014, 11:18:56 PM
Laois need to release their own video in response.
Just released
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcL1PguFtek (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcL1PguFtek)
Laois almost looks like a place you could visit in that video.
If you knew your man wouldn't be following you around.
I have one if those Welcome to Laois signs in my shed. I went to secondary school where those gardens are in the video at 2 mins in.
That video is magical :'(
Wexford - take yer baytin.
That was a lovely video - almost as good as this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZKACCy7OK8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZKACCy7OK8)
Avoid this one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmFNy87cS9g (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmFNy87cS9g)