Reading this short article struck a chord with me.
http://livegaelic.com/counties/walsh-analysis-can-mind-boggling
I think we're reaching a stage where the legions of backroom staff demanded by county team managers, are becoming detrimental to player performance. All these people, in trying too hard to justify their involvement (and salaries), seem to be forgetting that Gaelic Football is essentially still a game of 15 man-on-man duels, and the team that wins the most duels will tend to win the game.
Tactics certainly have their place in terms of defensive shape, attacking routes, and set plays. But isn't it all getting a little too complicated?
Quote from: thewobbler on July 03, 2014, 10:23:18 AM
Reading this short article struck a chord with me.
http://livegaelic.com/counties/walsh-analysis-can-mind-boggling
I think we're reaching a stage where the legions of backroom staff demanded by county team managers, are becoming detrimental to player performance. All these people, in trying too hard to justify their involvement (and salaries), seem to be forgetting that Gaelic Football is essentially still a game of 15 man-on-man duels, and the team that wins the most duels will tend to win the game.
Tactics certainly have their place in terms of defensive shape, attacking routes, and set plays. But isn't it all getting a little too complicated?
Is it?
Quote from: DuffleKing on July 03, 2014, 11:52:55 AM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 03, 2014, 10:23:18 AM
Reading this short article struck a chord with me.
http://livegaelic.com/counties/walsh-analysis-can-mind-boggling
I think we're reaching a stage where the legions of backroom staff demanded by county team managers, are becoming detrimental to player performance. All these people, in trying too hard to justify their involvement (and salaries), seem to be forgetting that Gaelic Football is essentially still a game of 15 man-on-man duels, and the team that wins the most duels will tend to win the game.
Tactics certainly have their place in terms of defensive shape, attacking routes, and set plays. But isn't it all getting a little too complicated?
Is it?
Not anymore . . .
It is losing its 15 v 15 mantle all the more and is resembling rugby or soccer with two/three banks of defenders from the 45m line back. Very much zonal marking at a lot of levels.
You can't blame managers. RTE panel loves to lambast defence teams and then they laugh/criticise managers/teams like Kildare last weekend for naïve and trying to play 15 v 15.
Quote from: Bingo on July 03, 2014, 12:29:17 PM
It is losing its 15 v 15 mantle all the more and is resembling rugby or soccer with two/three banks of defenders from the 45m line back. Very much zonal marking at a lot of levels.
You can't blame managers. RTE panel loves to lambast defence teams and then they laugh/criticise managers/teams like Kildare last weekend for naïve and trying to play 15 v 15.
You can very much blame managers if they're listening to RTE panels!!
It's not 15 vs 15 in the form of players lining out in a set grid as with the match programme, and spending the rest of the game protecting/dominating their area of the grid.
But, every player will (almost always) have a primary opponent to either exploit or nullify. A wing-back might find that his directly opposing no.10 is playing as a fulltime sweeper directly in front of his full-back line. But unless he's given someone else to mark, then that's still his man.
The wing-back might play as a sweeper himself. He might play as another forward. He might do a bit of both. But his performance will still be gauged in overall value against that no.10's performance. If the sweeper's influence is manifold, then his own influence has to match or more.
What I'm getting at is that in situations like this, managers, video analysts, stats men, scouts, etc, instead of helping the player, could be sending him with too many instructions, too many scenarios to ponder.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 03, 2014, 12:55:49 PM
It's not 15 vs 15 in the form of players lining out in a set grid as with the match programme, and spending the rest of the game protecting/dominating their area of the grid.
But, every player will (almost always) have a primary opponent to either exploit or nullify. A wing-back might find that his directly opposing no.10 is playing as a fulltime sweeper directly in front of his full-back line. But unless he's given someone else to mark, then that's still his man.
The wing-back might play as a sweeper himself. He might play as another forward. He might do a bit of both. But his performance will still be gauged in overall value against that no.10's performance. If the sweeper's influence is manifold, then his own influence has to match or more.
What I'm getting at is that in situations like this, managers, video analysts, stats men, scouts, etc, instead of helping the player, could be sending him with too many instructions, too many scenarios to ponder.
Completely agree. I said it in the World Cup thread and it was relating to stats. There is far too much focus on the 'circus' around the game these days in terms of tactics, stats, conditioning etc. The key to winning in my view is to focus over and over on the basics. When you can perfect the basics then start looking at the bigger picture but to my mind much of the 'tactical' focus that has developed is because the coaches don't trust the players to win their own battles. The best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
QuoteThe best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
Yet Dublin have the largest backroom team of them all! Coincidence?
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
QuoteThe best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
Yet Dublin have the largest backroom team of them all! Coincidence?
It makes no odds though that they still do the basics better than anyone else.
The background circus, tactics, stats analysis, video analysis, psychologists, dieticians, wrist bands and slogans, etc may give a team that extra 1-2% but most teams need to get the first 80% right first. As BCB1 says those are the basics.
If players cannot do the basics the rest doesn't matter.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 03, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
QuoteThe best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
Yet Dublin have the largest backroom team of them all! Coincidence?
It makes no odds though that they still do the basics better than anyone else.
They don't really, if you look at their execution in front of goal it's not particularly clinical, what they do better than any other team is create opportunities on average 45 chances per game. So what you need to be asking is why do they create so many chances, their conditioning is tailored towards speed, their middle 8 are all athletes with great mobility, they have recognized that turnovers are key and they will move the ball at speed once a turnover is complete. Their kick-out strategy is scientific and geared towards retaining possession. These things don't happen through doing the basics properly, it's done towards establishing a game plan and selecting and preparing players to play in that game and even their substitutions are based around continuing the game plan and maintaining the intensity particularly in the last 20 when opposition teams tend to drop off in their own intensity.
Yes Dublin's under-age structure is identifying players but Jim Gavin is coach with a vision, he has built a team and a backroom team to fulfill that vision. He doesn't leave things to chance, every player that plays for Jim Gavin knows his own weaknesses, strengths and his role within the team.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 03, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
QuoteThe best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
Yet Dublin have the largest backroom team of them all! Coincidence?
It makes no odds though that they still do the basics better than anyone else.
They don't really, if you look at their execution in front of goal it's not particularly clinical, what they do better than any other team is create opportunities on average 45 chances per game. So what you need to be asking is why do they create so many chances, their conditioning is tailored towards speed, their middle 8 are all athletes with great mobility, they have recognized that turnovers are key and they will move the ball at speed once a turnover is complete. Their kick-out strategy is scientific and geared towards retaining possession. These things don't happen through doing the basics properly, it's done towards establishing a game plan and selecting and preparing players to play in that game and even their substitutions are based around continuing the game plan and maintaining the intensity particularly in the last 20 when opposition teams tend to drop off in their own intensity.
Yes Dublin's under-age structure is identifying players but Jim Gavin is coach with a vision, he has built a team and a backroom team to fulfill that vision. He doesn't leave things to chance, every player that plays for Jim Gavin knows his own weaknesses, strengths and his role within the team.
Indeed! If MD MacAuley was playing the game 10 years ago he wouldn't be a midfielder!
He would be getting dominated in Midfield by Darragh O'Se, Paul McGrane etc. Dublin have developed a system which plays to his strengths of hard running (to win expertly placed ball from kickouts and bursting forward to get involved in attacks) and they've essentially changed a midfielders role now.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 03, 2014, 01:02:35 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 03, 2014, 12:55:49 PM
It's not 15 vs 15 in the form of players lining out in a set grid as with the match programme, and spending the rest of the game protecting/dominating their area of the grid.
But, every player will (almost always) have a primary opponent to either exploit or nullify. A wing-back might find that his directly opposing no.10 is playing as a fulltime sweeper directly in front of his full-back line. But unless he's given someone else to mark, then that's still his man.
The wing-back might play as a sweeper himself. He might play as another forward. He might do a bit of both. But his performance will still be gauged in overall value against that no.10's performance. If the sweeper's influence is manifold, then his own influence has to match or more.
What I'm getting at is that in situations like this, managers, video analysts, stats men, scouts, etc, instead of helping the player, could be sending him with too many instructions, too many scenarios to ponder.
Completely agree. I said it in the World Cup thread and it was relating to stats. There is far too much focus on the 'circus' around the game these days in terms of tactics, stats, conditioning etc. The key to winning in my view is to focus over and over on the basics. When you can perfect the basics then start looking at the bigger picture but to my mind much of the 'tactical' focus that has developed is because the coaches don't trust the players to win their own battles. The best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
You may perceive this to be the case or believe that it should be but it is no longer true. A large number of players have defensive responsibilities very different from that
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 03, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
QuoteThe best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
Yet Dublin have the largest backroom team of them all! Coincidence?
It makes no odds though that they still do the basics better than anyone else.
They don't really, if you look at their execution in front of goal it's not particularly clinical, what they do better than any other team is create opportunities on average 45 chances per game. So what you need to be asking is why do they create so many chances, their conditioning is tailored towards speed, their middle 8 are all athletes with great mobility, they have recognized that turnovers are key and they will move the ball at speed once a turnover is complete. Their kick-out strategy is scientific and geared towards retaining possession. These things don't happen through doing the basics properly, it's done towards establishing a game plan and selecting and preparing players to play in that game and even their substitutions are based around continuing the game plan and maintaining the intensity particularly in the last 20 when opposition teams tend to drop off in their own intensity.
Yes Dublin's under-age structure is identifying players but Jim Gavin is coach with a vision, he has built a team and a backroom team to fulfill that vision. He doesn't leave things to chance, every player that plays for Jim Gavin knows his own weaknesses, strengths and his role within the team.
This is correct but they do this mainly through accurate kicking of the ball and fast running of forwards presenting options. It's then that the mobility comes into play to provide support. However, the key points are the kicking and intelligent, pacy running i.e. the basics like BC1 said.
Dublin have worked exhaustively at accurate kicking. They move the ball through the middle third faster than any other team which is why they create the chances.
Duffle king, true it is my perception.
But when the unheralded and largely unmarked Ciaran McGinley banged in two goals against Down this year, do you think the consensus in the Down camp was a) that's one of those things that happen in this system, or b) player X should have picked him up?
I'm guessing the latter. Gaelic football might eventually become a purely zonal marking for sport. But we aren't there yet.
Quote from: sheamy on July 03, 2014, 02:57:34 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:54:51 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on July 03, 2014, 01:22:41 PM
Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 03, 2014, 01:20:12 PM
QuoteThe best way to win an individual battle is to simplify it down to what the basics are. First touch, pace of foot and speed of thought, comfort on the ball and and total team work. That is the way Dublin play the game and that is the best way forward.
Yet Dublin have the largest backroom team of them all! Coincidence?
It makes no odds though that they still do the basics better than anyone else.
They don't really, if you look at their execution in front of goal it's not particularly clinical, what they do better than any other team is create opportunities on average 45 chances per game. So what you need to be asking is why do they create so many chances, their conditioning is tailored towards speed, their middle 8 are all athletes with great mobility, they have recognized that turnovers are key and they will move the ball at speed once a turnover is complete. Their kick-out strategy is scientific and geared towards retaining possession. These things don't happen through doing the basics properly, it's done towards establishing a game plan and selecting and preparing players to play in that game and even their substitutions are based around continuing the game plan and maintaining the intensity particularly in the last 20 when opposition teams tend to drop off in their own intensity.
Yes Dublin's under-age structure is identifying players but Jim Gavin is coach with a vision, he has built a team and a backroom team to fulfill that vision. He doesn't leave things to chance, every player that plays for Jim Gavin knows his own weaknesses, strengths and his role within the team.
This is correct but they do this mainly through accurate kicking of the ball and fast running of forwards presenting options. It's then that the mobility comes into play to provide support. However, the key points are the kicking and intelligent, pacy running i.e. the basics like BC1 said.
Dublin have worked exhaustively at accurate kicking. They move the ball through the middle third faster than any other team which is why they create the chances.
Kicking is obviously a fundamental basic, the other two aren't. Now here's the kicker, Dublin's kicking at goal isn't that accurate having witnessed both games in the flesh their execution against Laois and Wexford particularly in the first half when defensive intensity is at it's highest was poor. Part of their game plan is to move the ball into space for pacy forwards to come on to via kick passing, that does not need to be the most accurate skill and not something I think Dublin do any better than other teams. Yes their spacial awareness is excellent but their anticipation comes from expectation, they never deviate from their game plan. Dublin to me are the essence of a team as are Donegal, it's not about doing the basics better than everyone else it's about preparing a system of play, Dublin's is about creating opportunities, Donegal's and Ulster football to a lesser extent is about denying opportunities. The game I want to see most this year is Dublin v Donegal, it will be a physical and tactical master piece.
Okay, let's separate out a couple of things.
A game plan is more-or-less essential if you're meeting any sort of quality opposition. At worst, it keeps fuel in the tank for when you need it most as your halfbacks don't bomb together, or your corner-forwards don't waste energy making runs to the wings for passes that aren't going to happen. At best, it's 15 cogs moving together, and even though it is predictable, is extremely difficult to counteract when executed with conviction, for which Dinny rightly lauds Donegal and Dublin.
But that's not the same thing as the growing obsession with over-analysing the opposition. Donegal didn't change up their system because they were playing Antrim, even though in a 15-on-15 match they might even have won more comfortably. Dublin don't change their flow in Leinster, where they could literally trial anything they want without fear of loss against most sides.
But studying individual opponent's preferences by watching videos of them playing in different conditions, against different opposition working under a very different gameplan, where they react differently at different stages of a match? That's just data. It's not information. Even when it manifests itself as a trend in how that player behaves, it's still only data.
Gaelic Football is now over analysed and over coached, to the extent that it is ruining the game. The team with the most skilful players will generally always win regardless of tactics.
Just get it and kick it.
Dublin's gameplan wouldn't work as well in smaller provincial grounds
Croke Park is well suited to them
I'm waiting for someone to really attack their kickout strategy by placing 5/6 tall mobile forwards and not allowing them any clean possession
All this talk of Dublin has got me thinking.Would it not be better to drop 13 men back inside your own half and go ultra defensive against them like Donegal did in 2011.It would make for a terrible spectacle but going man to man against Dublin and they will destroy you? I think this would take away a lot of Dublins strengths but the problem would be how would you get the scores to win the game and of course it would be very low scoring.
If donegal meet them this year it will be very interesting to see what tactics they have. Don't think they'll beat dublin but they'll put it up to them.
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 03, 2014, 11:53:52 PM
If donegal meet them this year it will be very interesting to see what tactics they have. Don't think they'll beat dublin but they'll put it up to them.
Agreed although Mc Hugh is a huge loss to them.
QuoteThere is far too much focus on the 'circus' around the game these days in terms of tactics, stats, conditioning etc.
The 'circus' is the stupid idea that the team's fortunes are the responsibility of one man, the manager - of course anyone with that kind of pressure heaped on them is going to try to gain any advantage by using sports science (as well as other analytical tools at his disposal) to try to stay in that position as long as possible. I'd also agree with Dinny that Dublin's recent success has been built on sports intelligence rather than the traditional skills.
For instance, at the Under 21 AI final, Dublin had 5 lads on laptops offering video analysis, stats etc for the management during the game
Roscommon had none.
As far as im aware they have an analyst for every line on the field.
Full Back, Half Back, Midfield, Half Forward and Full Forward. They probably have someone analysing the goalkeeper patterns too although probably easier to collate.
They are streets ahead in terms of resources available. No other county can come close.
If it makes small gains across personal and team performance then they can warrant using it with their financial backing.
Some clubs are now spending big on similar equip and methods.
Doesn't guarantee success but it can definitely help if used right.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on July 04, 2014, 10:07:26 AM
For instance, at the Under 21 AI final, Dublin had 5 lads on laptops offering video analysis, stats etc for the management during the game
Roscommon had none.
We had a buck with a little notebookín.
Quote from: Brick Tamlin on July 04, 2014, 10:32:36 AM
As far as im aware they have an analyst for every line on the field.
Full Back, Half Back, Midfield, Half Forward and Full Forward. They probably have someone analysing the goalkeeper patterns too although probably easier to collate.
They are streets ahead in terms of resources available. No other county can come close.
If it makes small gains across personal and team performance then they can warrant using it with their financial backing.
Some clubs are now spending big on similar equip and methods.
Doesn't guarantee success but it can definitely help if used right.
Wow, this American Football style analysis. Can see the advantages, but surely our game is too free-flowing to reduce it down to a series of individual patterns (that surely must evolve and mutate depending on player fitness, adrenaline, etc).
There's a lot to be said for a simpler approach removing the biggest threat in the opposition by whatever means necessary!
I would say it has more to do with the actions and events that individual players create or carry out in a game rather than series of play patterns.
One analyst can gather a lot of info if only concentrating on 3 half backs for instance. They only have to watch 3 players and collate against them.
Id say that the feedback and analysis breakdown that the 3 half-backs would receive would be very detailed and also useful for them as players. Its probably presented or broken down for them in a simple form for them to concentrate on core areas or jobs that management have delegated them.
Its vital that the players buy into the analysis and are genuinely interested in personal performance and improvement. If they don't believe in it or not interested in personal performance then performance analysis tools are lost on them.
The amount of club games ive seen this year where there is a 'support team' with management is unreal. IPads, camera, tripod, software, clipboards the works.
Imo "stats" are the mainstay of spoofers. If you cannot glean what is happening out on the pitch or at training with your own eyes you shouldn't be let near a team.
The main "tactic" for success imo is to have 5 or 6 lads on the subs bench as good if not better than the starting 15 . Oh and luck plays a major part.
Quote from: Canalman on July 04, 2014, 11:40:22 AM
Imo "stats" are the mainstay of spoofers. If you cannot glean what is happening out on the pitch or at training with your own eyes you shouldn't be let near a team.
The main "tactic" for success imo is to have 5 or 6 lads on the subs bench as good if not better than the starting 15 . Oh and luck plays a major part.
In any professional sports (you know where people play/coach sports for a living and are paid to know what they are talking about) stats are key!! To say that a manager "should just know from looking at the game" is bullshit and a reason why a lot of teams are behind the Dubs!!
Quote from: Canalman on July 04, 2014, 11:40:22 AM
Imo "stats" are the mainstay of spoofers. If you cannot glean what is happening out on the pitch or at training with your own eyes you shouldn't be let near a team.
The main "tactic" for success imo is to have 5 or 6 lads on the subs bench as good if not better than the starting 15 . Oh and luck plays a major part.
you make your own luck
by being more organised and having all angles covered - fitness, skills, video analysis, player match ups, kickout strategieis, freetakers etc
Quote from: screenexile on July 04, 2014, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: Canalman on July 04, 2014, 11:40:22 AM
Imo "stats" are the mainstay of spoofers. If you cannot glean what is happening out on the pitch or at training with your own eyes you shouldn't be let near a team.
The main "tactic" for success imo is to have 5 or 6 lads on the subs bench as good if not better than the starting 15 . Oh and luck plays a major part.
In any professional sports (you know where people play/coach sports for a living and are paid to know what they are talking about) stats are key!! To say that a manager "should just know from looking at the game" is bullshit and a reason why a lot of teams are behind the Dubs!!
Such nonsense. The key to success is having the best players arriving in prime condition. Even in stats heavy American sports. Anything else is at best an edge, not a reason.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 04, 2014, 11:58:28 AM
Quote from: screenexile on July 04, 2014, 11:44:39 AM
Quote from: Canalman on July 04, 2014, 11:40:22 AM
Imo "stats" are the mainstay of spoofers. If you cannot glean what is happening out on the pitch or at training with your own eyes you shouldn't be let near a team.
The main "tactic" for success imo is to have 5 or 6 lads on the subs bench as good if not better than the starting 15 . Oh and luck plays a major part.
In any professional sports (you know where people play/coach sports for a living and are paid to know what they are talking about) stats are key!! To say that a manager "should just know from looking at the game" is bullshit and a reason why a lot of teams are behind the Dubs!!
Such nonsense. The key to success is having the best players arriving in prime condition. Even in stats heavy American sports. Anything else is at best an edge, not a reason.
watch Moneyball or read Moneyball: The Art of Winning an Unfair Game
In any field sport I would say that stats are only one of the many important components.
They aren't critical but to try and be successful in today's game without some sort of measurable involved for your players/team is a tough task.
No point in having your best players arrive in peak condition if some of them repeat the same errors/habits on a regular basis, it could cost you on the field.
If management can illustrate an individual's strengths and weaknesses or tendencies/habits and if players can recognise these then maybe they can alter their own performance and try to improve. If this means that your no9 is more mindful of delivering the 'holywood pass' in games then great. Or if your no3 stays closer to his man during games rather than standing off the great.
Quote from: manfromdelmonte on July 04, 2014, 10:07:26 AM
For instance, at the Under 21 AI final, Dublin had 5 lads on laptops offering video analysis, stats etc for the management during the game
Roscommon had none.
On the other hand, did Dublin have their own bus? These things even out in the end.