Quote
Stuart Byrne column: I'm delighted Keely's '42,000 morons' comment has sparked debate (http://www.thescore.ie/stuart-byrne-column-dermot-keely-1474756-May2014/)
Stuey believes giving LOI players a profile and moving away from summer football are two moves which could attract fans.
I'M GLAD TO see that last night's discussion on Soccer Republic about the recent friendly between Shamrock Rovers and a Liverpool XI has sparked some debate, especially on Twitter.
Dermot Keely said "42,000 morons" attended the game but I think the point he was trying to make was that a hell of a lot of people were effectively going to watch a reserve team. It sounded like he was finding it hard to understand that.
There's a big difference between paying to see Liverpool's first team and a second string of youngsters and fringe players. But because it was in the Aviva Stadium and the Liverpool 'brand' was attached to it, there was a novelty about the match and the people came out in their droves.
It must be frustrating from Dermot's point of view — being born and bred in the League of Ireland. Even for myself, seeing that many people go out to watch a reserve team when we can't get them to their local team is disappointing.
I would hope that last night's programme can encourage more debate because we just don't talk about it anymore. There is no attempt to get into the minds of these people or plan to find out why more don't support our league.
Getting a reaction is great and I want fans to say what they feel so we can try and understand and move on from there.
There simply hasn't been a big enough effort made to encourage new fans in my opinion. One of the last measures of note I can remember was a television ad from four or five years ago which was funded by the FAI and featured an old man walking around an empty Dalymount Park reminiscing about the past.
It looked horrendous and might as well have been saying: "If you're over 70, come watch the League of Ireland". It didn't appeal to young fans, it didn't appeal to families, and there was no attempt to make a connection.
We need to give profiles to players in the SSE Airtricity League. I would love to see more interviews like the one with Chris Forrester on Soccer Republic last night. That creates a link between the supporter and the player.
You look at rugby and the GAA and how they profile their best players — the likes of Bernard Brogan, Colm Cooper, Brian O'Driscoll, Jamie Heaslip.
In Irish football, the younger generation have no interest in the players because all they see is the likes of Steven Gerrard on advertisements. We need to start getting players on billboards, television ads... whatever.
You heard one of the fans talking last night about how he went to a League of Ireland game ten years ago and recalling how it was lashing rain. Is this guy for real? He went along and all he could think about was the weather. Does it not lash rain over in Anfield, no?
People perceive the League of Ireland to be something that it's not and we've got to change that as well as a hundred other things. At the moment, we are doing nothing and the longer it goes on the more they're going to think that way.
We need to show them players like Chris Forrester and say: "Have a look at this goal, look what this guy can do".
You could debate it all day but there certainly are areas where we can improve. As a player who isn't long out of the game, helping LOI players to become role models for kids could be a start.
I've mentioned it before but summer soccer isn't doing us any favours either. We could be talking about this in 10 years and nothing may have changed because things take time, especially when you consider the mess Irish football finds itself in at the moment.
If there are changes you can make immediately or within a year, I would point to going back to playing during the old season.
We think about football between September and May in this country. When it comes to the summer months, it's the GAA, holidays, BBQs, going to the pub on a Friday. They don't associate the time of the year with going to a football match.
I felt as a player that when we changed to a summer season, the crowds would not be there in May, June and July. It's a cultural thing. We don't live a country where the weather is always nice so when it is, we tend to do other things.
For me, reverting back to the old season is a start and I think we need to go from there.
What's the story with Irish soccer then? Is the FAI only focused on the international team and doesn't pay much heed to the domestic league?
If the marketing is as bad as this article says it is, why is it so bad? Is the marketing function being micromanaged by an organization that doesn't do marketing very well or doesn't understand why it's important? If they hired a marketing agency or got their corporate sponsors to take care of it would they get better results?
Would a merging of the IFA and FAI* lead to better competition?
*I know, I know, "unlikely in the foreseeable future" and all, but humour me for the purposes of this discussion.
Not like its a recent phenomen. They made some good points on the show last night nonetheless. Summer soccer was brought into improve the standard in the league and help teams to progress in Europe, but not much impact in attendance figures. Very hard for them to compete with Gaa Championship season in Full swing among other things. The World Cup this year too
I would have thought the World Cup would increase interest in soccer and get more people to games.
The LOI is almost masonic in its cronyism, Dublin centric with a f**k the culchies attitude from the top down. The League of Ireland is a victim of inept management and insiders looking after their own, almost a carbon copy of how the country is run!
I'll declare an interest here, before setting sail for Australia's fair shores i would have attended a lot of Monaghan Utd's matches and whilst part of me concurs with Keely and the 42,000 idiots comment another part of me says fair fucks to them.
Shamrock Rovers made more money from that single match the other night than they would have from multiple league and cup winning cheques.
The financial arrangements with clubs and the FAI are farcical and it directly contributed to Monaghan Utds downfall.
It costs more to take part in the league ( either first or premier) than you will get from taking part and winning it, gate receipts are not shared by home and away club like they used to be.
Before I get carried away I'll let you in on two of the particularly nasty episodes provided by the FAI/LOI in the months/weeks prior to Monaghan Utd going wallop.
Monaghan Utd would have played a lot of pre season matches against northern teams, usually northern referees would have ref'ed these games and it soon became apparent that the northern refs were a lot handier to pay than their southern counterparts.
Southern refs got, as the celtic tiger roared and roared, better and better compensated as the years went on, to the point that a 4 man team of officials would have to get 550 - 600 yo yo's plus petrol money and a feed for a night of shite refereeing.
By comparison the northern refs were happy to come to Monaghan for 200 Stg, petrol money and a feed, the northern refs were UEFA registered and Monaghan Utd thought " lets save a few bob here".
They were told in no uncertain terms that it would not now or ever be a runner and that the refs assoc South of the border will be speaking to you about this, first five or six games of the 2010 league when Mon Utd were in the premier they couldn't buy a decision, indeed after one particularly bad decision Roddy collins was told at half time by a ref " maybe if you were allowed a northern ref you might have got a better decision"
When Monaghan Utd were badly on the ropes about 10 games in that 2010 premier league season with no main sponsor, they finally got a sponsor to agree to come in with some $$$$, enough to keep the ship sailing and see out the season and into the next one.
The sponsor would be well known, I'm not willing to mention names.
Anyway 2 days after doing the deal the sponsor pulls out having got the phone call from Adamstowns from delaney or one of his minions telling the guy that it would be better to stay away from Monaghan Utd.
This might come across as bitter and maybe it is but the entire LOI/FAI charade is rotten to the core, It will be interesting to see what clubs can stay solvent for the next few years,Im hearing bad rumours about a few.
The management or marketing of the LOI is there to do one thing and one thing only, keep the big 4 Dublin clubs in clover and bring along a few house trained Cork, Louth and Galway teams.
I see the RTE report on the Dundalk/Drogheda game on Monday night includes an attendance figure of 2383. How would that number rank with other LOI games?
Im not sure what the prize money situation is at present, but I know two years ago the league champions secured €100,000 for winning the league while Delaney was pocketing €400,000 a year salary.
Quote from: Ball Hopper on May 21, 2014, 07:50:30 AM
I see the RTE report on the Dundalk/Drogheda game on Monday night includes an attendance figure of 2383. How would that number rank with other LOI games?
For a normal game today that would be a fairly high attendance. Though it's a derby so there would have been plenty of away fans.
The short answer is no, marketing isn't going to revive the League of Ireland. I say 'revive' because once upon a time there were Biblical crowds at domestic soccer. My uncle from Cork, who obsesses about Liverpool, once told me how he used travel to see Waterford play in Kilcohan Park in the 60's. It didn't matter who they were playing, he wanted to get a fix of live sport and that was the only way of doing so at the time (he has no interest in Gaelic games). I think his experience says a lot about the way we consume sport. I remember reading an article in the Irish Times a number of years back about how a five-figure crowd attended an edition of the Morton Mile in Santry in the 60's. I was talking about this to another uncle and he said "I was there". He had travelled all the way to north county Dublin from Waterford because he wanted to see Herb Elliott. Now you can see the Herb Elliotts of this world on television all the time. You can even get a cheap flight to Brussels for a Diamond League meet if you are so inclined. You often see League of Ireland diehards bemoaning a nation of event junkies, and while such complaints usually involve blaming the GAA for all their woes it's easy to see their point.
I think GAA inter-county teams would have trouble attracting crowds if they played 30-35 odd games per annum - I don't think national league attendances are anything to write home about (and there's only 8 matches). I think deiseach is right - TV is why the crowds have fallen.
Plus it is fairly shite in fairness. I used to go to a lot of Limerick FC/Limerick City/Limerick 37 games, and the facilities are muck, the standard is poor and the atmosphere is like a Junior football club game.
However, I also went to games in Tolka Park and Dalymount, and the atmosphere was much better, there was decent facilities but the standard was still pretty poor. Also the Shamrock Rovers/Bohs game at Dalymount was the only game I've ever had to get away from quickly as a row broke out behind the ground between the Rovers Ultras and some crew of Bohs.
It just feels small time, incestuous and basically a league for Dublin players and soccer heads from Dublin.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:10:20 AM
Plus it is fairly shite in fairness. I used to go to a lot of Limerick FC/Limerick City/Limerick 37 games, and the facilities are muck, the standard is poor and the atmosphere is like a Junior football club game.
However, I also went to games in Tolka Park and Dalymount, and the atmosphere was much better, there was decent facilities but the standard was still pretty poor. Also the Shamrock Rovers/Bohs game at Dalymount was the only game I've ever had to get away from quickly as a row broke out behind the ground between the Rovers Ultras and some crew of Bohs.
It just feels small time, incestuous and basically a league for Dublin players and soccer heads from Dublin.
That's the main problem. It's a poor product. All the marketing in the world isn't going to change that.
It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.
A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.
Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.
But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.
Quote from: deiseach on May 21, 2014, 09:44:04 AM
The short answer is no, marketing isn't going to revive the League of Ireland. I say 'revive' because once upon a time there were Biblical crowds at domestic soccer. My uncle from Cork, who obsesses about Liverpool, once told me how he used travel to see Waterford play in Kilcohan Park in the 60's. It didn't matter who they were playing, he wanted to get a fix of live sport and that was the only way of doing so at the time (he has no interest in Gaelic games). I think his experience says a lot about the way we consume sport. I remember reading an article in the Irish Times a number of years back about how a five-figure crowd attended an edition of the Morton Mile in Santry in the 60's. I was talking about this to another uncle and he said "I was there". He had travelled all the way to north county Dublin from Waterford because he wanted to see Herb Elliott. Now you can see the Herb Elliotts of this world on television all the time. You can even get a cheap flight to Brussels for a Diamond League meet if you are so inclined. You often see League of Ireland diehards bemoaning a nation of event junkies, and while such complaints usually involve blaming the GAA for all their woes it's easy to see their point.
That explains everything except why Irish soccer fans, when they do attend games, choose to do so in England and Scotland, at great expense.
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 21, 2014, 10:26:39 AM
It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.
A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.
Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.
But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.
First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.
Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.
I
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 21, 2014, 10:26:39 AM
It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.
A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.
Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.
But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.
First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.
Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.
I
Replace "LOI" with "All-Ireland Championship" and "England and Scotland" with "The GAA Premiership" and you have a picture of football when we go professional.
Quote from: Hardy on May 21, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 21, 2014, 09:44:04 AM
The short answer is no, marketing isn't going to revive the League of Ireland. I say 'revive' because once upon a time there were Biblical crowds at domestic soccer. My uncle from Cork, who obsesses about Liverpool, once told me how he used travel to see Waterford play in Kilcohan Park in the 60's. It didn't matter who they were playing, he wanted to get a fix of live sport and that was the only way of doing so at the time (he has no interest in Gaelic games). I think his experience says a lot about the way we consume sport. I remember reading an article in the Irish Times a number of years back about how a five-figure crowd attended an edition of the Morton Mile in Santry in the 60's. I was talking about this to another uncle and he said "I was there". He had travelled all the way to north county Dublin from Waterford because he wanted to see Herb Elliott. Now you can see the Herb Elliotts of this world on television all the time. You can even get a cheap flight to Brussels for a Diamond League meet if you are so inclined. You often see League of Ireland diehards bemoaning a nation of event junkies, and while such complaints usually involve blaming the GAA for all their woes it's easy to see their point.
That explains everything except why Irish soccer fans, when they do attend games, choose to do so in England and Scotland, at great expense.
Myriad reasons for that Hardy. Hype is a big part, which I know you love, but there were people going to matches in England before Sky Sports hyped up every Sunday as a Super Sunday Spectacular. The standard is good, the players are recognised as top class (note I didn't say World Class), the clubs are huge, the product is better, the atmosphere is excellent and it's an 'event'. Most people are event junkies at the back of it all, and going to Anfield or Old Trafford (or our fair weather fans in the GAA - Croker) is an event. Going to Terryland to see Galway is not an event.
Quote from: Hardy on May 21, 2014, 10:35:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 21, 2014, 10:26:39 AM
It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.
A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.
Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.
But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.
First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.
Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.
I
Replace "LOI" with "All-Ireland Championship" and "England and Scotland" with "The GAA Premiership" and you have a picture of football when we go professional.
OK, taking the alarmist hyperbole about 'when' we go professional, I think you are right. That would happen but not to the All Ireland, to the club scene. In fact it already has in some sense, when you look at Donegal. If the GAA separate County from Club, then Club players will have a very similar status to LOI players vis a vis the Premiership. However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.
Quote from: Hardy on May 21, 2014, 10:32:50 AM
Quote from: deiseach on May 21, 2014, 09:44:04 AM
The short answer is no, marketing isn't going to revive the League of Ireland. I say 'revive' because once upon a time there were Biblical crowds at domestic soccer. My uncle from Cork, who obsesses about Liverpool, once told me how he used travel to see Waterford play in Kilcohan Park in the 60's. It didn't matter who they were playing, he wanted to get a fix of live sport and that was the only way of doing so at the time (he has no interest in Gaelic games). I think his experience says a lot about the way we consume sport. I remember reading an article in the Irish Times a number of years back about how a five-figure crowd attended an edition of the Morton Mile in Santry in the 60's. I was talking about this to another uncle and he said "I was there". He had travelled all the way to north county Dublin from Waterford because he wanted to see Herb Elliott. Now you can see the Herb Elliotts of this world on television all the time. You can even get a cheap flight to Brussels for a Diamond League meet if you are so inclined. You often see League of Ireland diehards bemoaning a nation of event junkies, and while such complaints usually involve blaming the GAA for all their woes it's easy to see their point.
That explains everything except why Irish soccer fans, when they do attend games, choose to do so in England and Scotland, at great expense.
I know what you mean. I wouldn't call myself an 'Irish soccer fan', yet I go to more League of Ireland games each year than 99% of the Boyz in Gray-uhn. Although going to soccer games 'cross-channel' isn't that expensive. Most of the thousands who go every weekend only do it a couple of times a year. They book cheap flights, stay in dingy accommodation, and have a session while they're at it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:39:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on May 21, 2014, 10:35:33 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 21, 2014, 10:26:39 AM
It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.
A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.
Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.
But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.
First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.
Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.
I
Replace "LOI" with "All-Ireland Championship" and "England and Scotland" with "The GAA Premiership" and you have a picture of football when we go professional.
OK, taking the alarmist hyperbole about 'when' we go professional, I think you are right. That would happen but not to the All Ireland, to the club scene. In fact it already has in some sense, when you look at Donegal. If the GAA separate County from Club, then Club players will have a very similar status to LOI players vis a vis the Premiership. However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.
:D :D "Alarmist hyperbole" is quite a role for a little word like "when" to undertake. I prefer "rhetorical device".
Seriously, I disagree that we're talking about separation of club and county in the professional scenario. They're already separated. Given that it's pretty much universally accepted that we couldn't sustain a professional or semi-professional setup with the current championship structure, the situation I envisage is the creation of a small number of professional franchises. This I'm calling "The GAA Premiership", funded by sponsorship and Pay TV.
The "All-Ireland Championship" I'm calling the residual, old-fashioned competition, that will (possibly, just about) survive as a three-men-and-a-dog relic of what the Championship used to be.
Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?
Quote from: deiseach on May 21, 2014, 10:49:58 AM
Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?
I used to support (I suppose, or at least take an interest in) Drogheda and go to the odd game when I lived there. When I was a student in Dublin, and later when I lived in Limerick, I'd go to the odd LOI match no matter who was playing, just for the live sport. My move to Cork more or less coincided with my loss of interest in soccer and I haven't been to a game in the twenty-odd years I've been here. I think I would go again to LOI matches if (my PERCEPTION of) the whole crowd atmosphere wasn't some kind of cheap knock-off of the worst aspects of British soccer and the antics on the field a carbon copy of all the stuff I've grown to hate about the sport.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:33:06 AM
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 21, 2014, 10:26:39 AM
It hardly helped that traditionally the LOI and the FAI were separate bodies and wouldn't have always seen eye to eye.
A huge problem is the user experience. Most of the stadiums I'm familiar with are fairly decrepit. It wouldn't be a family day out with the crowds are male dominated and perhaps a little bit industrial with the banter. I'd say there are a section of casual soccer people who are turned off by the bitterness of some of the hardcore LOI fans - the anti-Premier League stuff.
Strip away all the trappings, the actual spectacle on the field is not massively different. Obviously there is a lesser standard of player, but you're getting roughly the same dose of goals, chances, misses. If West Ham played Crystal Palace in an empty field and then Drogheda played Dundalk, would the London derby be miles more enjoyable?
There'll be plenty of woeful games in the World Cup in a month's time involving the best players in the world.
But the problem is the public know they're not watching something meaningful when they go to LOI games. It's a periphery league in a periphery country where the periphery players produced by the country participate in.
First bit in bold, yes I think it would be better. West Ham and Crystal Palace are two teams stacked with internationals and foreign players. (and Andy Carroll). Drogheda and Dundalk are not. There are some good players in the League of Ireland, but not enough of them. The teams also try to play football a bit, in the main, but they are just not very good at it. I think if your question was Drogheda v Dundalk versus Port Vale v MK Dons, the answer might be a lot closer.
Second bit I agree with to a certain extent. The feeling of the LOI is that it is either a league for 'rejects' who couldn't make it in England or Scotland, or young lads who are trying to get there. It's like a feeder league for the big brother over the pond, and is regarded as such.
I
Of course, but the higher class of players don't serve up a better spectacle. They'll do everything that bit better, but the game will have roughly the same amount of goals, chances, mistakes, misses, oohs and aaahs.
If it was a complete blind taste and you didn't who the 4 teams were, you would obviously appreciate the better execution of the skills by the EPL players but the experience of watching either game wouldn't be poles apart.
The problem is that people know the context of what they're watching rather than specifically having a problem with what they're watching. So long as that perception is there, I can't see the LOI making significant inroads.
Quote from: deiseach on May 21, 2014, 10:49:58 AM
Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?
Athlone Town was the team we looked out for in the old days. I I could never understand how all the players, and even the fans(!) seemed to have Dublin accents (Come on da towennn).
Since I moved to the mid-west, it would basically be Limerick results I'd look out for, and even go to see, but I wouldn't call myself a fan. As I said in Dublin at weekends, or at work overnights, I've gone to see Bohs, Shels, Rovers and even Bray Wanderers!
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:39:18 AM
However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.
That's how they grew the game as a spectacle in Engerland between the wars - you can see where this is going ...
Professional soccer in Ireland really is an odd thing.
Given the shared language, proximity to and symbiotic ties with English soccer for Irish people, it will never be possible for any Irish football league - regardless of investment and/or marketing - to be anything other better than a second tier league; a step down or a stepping stone for players, and by osmosis, for spectators too.
But there are enough people emotionally invested in Irish senior soccer, and enough marketeers looking for ways to connect to people, that every few years it will continue to get a reload, a relaunch, an update. A short term buzz before rather quickly returning to the second-tier profile it actually deserves.
Perhaps a bigger problem that league clubs face is that unless they enjoy a sustained time in the national attention, the revenues will never accrue to invest in facilities. It's a proper catch-22, for without upgrading they'll be left behind, and probably distance themselves further from key markets of families and corporates, Yet they can't afford or justify significant upgrades based on current projections. There is no government that could justify bailing out a system that has no financial future, and negligible community value. As such, I reckon the majority of clubs are basically on a slow death. It might be another 20 years, but most of them will have to go.
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 21, 2014, 11:15:59 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 21, 2014, 10:39:18 AM
However, one thing that's different is that even in that case, the Club player will still be playing for his local club, representing the man in the street, and playing with lads he grew up with.
That's how they grew the game as a spectacle in Engerland between the wars - you can see where this is going ...
Yes, but I'm talking about after the professional split. The Club game would be a feeder, albeit based on local loyalties and community. A bit like club cricket in England probably. Once you 'make it' you have to leave your club, and you play for the professional county team, or regional franchise.
I can't see it happening, I don't think we can support it, but if it did happen, I agree with Hardy. The Club game would basically be viewed like the LOI is relative to the Premier League.
Quote from: thewobbler on May 21, 2014, 11:17:02 AM
Professional soccer in Ireland really is an odd thing.
Given the shared language, proximity to and symbiotic ties with English soccer for Irish people, it will never be possible for any Irish football league - regardless of investment and/or marketing - to be anything other better than a second tier league; a step down or a stepping stone for players, and by osmosis, for spectators too.
But there are enough people emotionally invested in Irish senior soccer, and enough marketeers looking for ways to connect to people, that every few years it will continue to get a reload, a relaunch, an update. A short term buzz before rather quickly returning to the second-tier profile it actually deserves.
Perhaps a bigger problem that league clubs face is that unless they enjoy a sustained time in the national attention, the revenues will never accrue to invest in facilities. It's a proper catch-22, for without upgrading they'll be left behind, and probably distance themselves further from key markets of families and corporates, Yet they can't afford or justify significant upgrades based on current projections. There is no government that could justify bailing out a system that has no financial future, and negligible community value. As such, I reckon the majority of clubs are basically on a slow death. It might be another 20 years, but most of them will have to go.
Funnily enough, if there was an all-island 10 team league in which teams played 18 games (no cup) over a 4 month period (May-August), I think it might work - I could see averages attendances of 3000-4000 happening on Monday nights (maybe), Wednesday nights (definitely) and Friday nights (definitely).
Quote from: deiseach on May 21, 2014, 10:49:58 AM
Here's a question for those of you not living in or near a garrison town. Who would someone from Offaly or Meath (for example) support in the League of Ireland?
Not from near a garrison town but many around here would attend Sligo Rovers matches. I have never got around to going to any League of Ireland game.
Hardy you should have been a Dundalk fan! Used to travel regularly from Portadown ( no motorways either in those days) in the late 70s to see the likes of Blackmore,Keely,Dunning,Muckian,Carlyke and Dainty.Great team,won league and cups galore,and the likes of PSV eindhoven,Celtic,Spurs etc visited on European duty but none could get a win at Oriel
Quote from: ardtole on May 21, 2014, 08:42:48 AM
Im not sure what the prize money situation is at present, but I know two years ago the league champions secured €100,000 for winning the league while Delaney was pocketing €400,000 a year salary.
How he continues to survive is beyond belief. He'll move into politics or run for president yet.
For work reasons I'm at most of the Athlone Town home games and in terms of facilities, it's actually comparable with a lot of the poorer county grounds. If they had to cater for a bigger crowd in excess of 2000 people it would be much tougher but for what they get it's a nice stand, decent shop, bathrooms are fine, the field is generally okay ( though it really can't take any level of rain at all), it's well stewarded and I've never seen a hint of trouble and generally I don't see what anyone else could want.
However on a personal level, it's just not a good sport to watch. I'm possibly not the best person to judge in that I'm not a big fan of soccer generally as a spectator sport. I prefer to play and haven't watched a game on TV in donkey's years. You could say that Irish people are event junkies but you could also say that we like our sporting action with a little bit more....action.
For whatever reason, English culture respects slow burning sport. They created test cricket, for crying out loud. For long stretches of soccer matches, nothing of note happens. I was writing a 700 word report on Tuesday night's game against Sligo Rovers and there is one 25 minute section where I wrote nothing down in my notepad, barring a couple of substitutions. Literally nothing worth talking about happened. Others might say that I don't appreciate the sport on a deeper level and that's as may be, but you can't complain about the lack of crowds and general interest, and then turn around and say that it's too deep for some people to get - particularly people like myself who can appreciate pretty much any sport on a normal day.
In a lot of cases, the sport is secondary to the tribalism and yes, the occasion. A dull game amidst 40,000 supporters making noise, singing and generally enjoying the tie will help to make the experience a little bit memorable. When you strip all that away, I don't know that there's really a lot left.
digging up an old thread here as i have recently attended a couple of league of Ireland games and i was just wondering if any others here followed it at all.
the young lad is mad into all sports, GAA being number one but also soccer, rugby, basketball, swimming, squash etc etc. so i though i'd bring him to see sligo rover our nearest LOI team. we have been twice the fist time to see them play dundalk and lastly to see them play St Pats on Saturday night.
all in all i enjoyed it and he loved it. they have a nice set up, easy in and out, a nice covered stand reasonably priced. sligo lost the first game and i thought the standard was poor but the 0-0 draw on Saturday was much more exciting and the standard was higher.
a lot of the players would have played in England and a lot of them would have represented Ireland underage. the sligo goalie is on loan from Chelsea and one of the out field players was on the books at Liverpool and was is in Europa cup squads.
having said that its a million miles away from the excitement of a GAA match, it would barely compare to a mayo FBD league game let alone a league or championship fixture but then i suppose that's a matter of interest and perception.
on the downside i was taken aback with the level of abuse the players and coaches were giving the officials. if a player in a gaa game spoke to a linesman the was i saw a dundalk player address one he would have been imminently sent off, yer man wasn't even booked.
then there were the fans. the home fans were a lot more male and middle aged then a gaa crowd. not many woman and not even that many kids.
i was quite surprised at the state the away fans were in. on both occasions a large proportion of them were out of their minds on drink and i'd say drugs as well, the crew with st pat's were coked off their heads.
now there was no trouble as such but on Saturday there were 3 firemen fully kitted out ready to go into the crowd and retrieve the many flares, and fire crackers they were letting off and throwing on the pitch. they chanted throughout a minutes applause for a person who had passed away.
now having said that never stopped singing and chanting and defiantly added to the atmosphere.
so all in all i think it is a good enough product and while i doubt id bother with it if it was just myself for kids with an interest in soccer its a good option.
If it could be reduced to 30 minutes a half, no offside and players allowed to touch the ball with their hands and more scores......
It's just such a long boring tedious sport.
The Swiss league is pro AFAIK and it has the same problem as the LoI. The quality is not as good as on the telly. Attendances may reach 3000 and teams like Basel regularly do well in the Champions League but soccer is about money and if a club doesn't have it it will not have the quality.
This season, top spending by Club
International
1. Barcelona 324m
2. Man City 315m
10 Monaco 123m
Switzerland
1. Basel 7m
2 Young Boys 5m
10 Servette 150K
It's not really a sport any more.