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Looks like the GAA are moving onto the second phase of the FRC report, the Provincial Championships being redefined into 4 equal 8s. Zulu will be delighted to see they are still 'provincial' championships in nature.

QuoteAt the recent meeting of the GAA's Central Council, President Liam O'Neill requested the members to ask all their county boards to discuss Part 2 of the recent Football Review Committee (FRC) report and forward their views to the next Central Council meeting for further discussion. Bearing this in mind the FRC wishes to clarify one aspect of its Part ll Report.
The key is to reach the four eights structure and enable a more streamlined Provincial and All-Ireland series while facilitating the playing of club championship games.
Eugene McGee
During its consultations and deliberations the FRC encountered an overwhelming wish to see a radical improvement in club fixtures, specifically club championships throughout the country. While there was also a very strong desire to see an Inter-county championship based on four groups of eight counties, there was also a strong desire that the provincial championships should be maintained as an integral part of the All-Ireland Championship series.
If the proposal to adjust the current make-up of provinces into four groups of eight for the All-Ireland Championship proper were to be adopted this would facilitate a more orderly and fairer system of playing off the Provincial and All-Ireland Championships. This in turn would lead to more weekends being available free of Inter-county games, thereby making it possible for County Boards to play more club championship games in the months of May, June and July – something that FRC surveys and consultation discussions show clearly is the earnest wish of the vast majority of club players. It would also allow the All-Ireland Club Championship to be concluded by December.
The FRC proposed one method for adjusting the present provinces into four eights. There may well be alternative suggestions as to how one might arrive at a provincial structure based on four eights. Whatever route is taken to reach that situation, the key point of our proposal should not be lost or confused by focusing on one example of how to reach the four groups of eight.
The Chairman of the FRC, Eugene McGee said that, "The key is to reach the four eights structure and enable a more streamlined Provincial and All-Ireland series while facilitating the playing of club championship games throughout the country during the summer months, something whose absence was the single biggest criticism to arise during our nationwide consultation process."

I really don't mind if there is a provincial aspect to the championship as long as there is a clear and universal way of making your way to an All Ireland title. Pretty much anything would be an improvement on the current farce ;)

Lets see how this might work. Geographical constrainsts would surely come into it, but essentially we have 9 teams in Ulster, 6 in Connacht, 6 in Munster and 11 in Leinster.

So, we need to reduce Ulster by one, and move them into Connacht. Donegal might be an option, as they touch Sligo, but probably Cavan makes more sense as it's closer to more of the Connacht counties.

That makes Ulster 8, Connacht 7, Munster 6 and Leinster 11.

So the next three have to come out of Leinster. Again, based on geography, you could argue for Offaly or Longford to be in Connacht, with the borders with Roscommon and Galway in Offaly's case. Lets say Longford.

That makes Ulster 8, Connacht 8, Munster 6 and Leinster 10.

So now two more from Leinster into Munster. Offaly touches Tipperary, but would be stretching the province a good bit north. Laois would also be touching Tipp, and a bit lower down. Kilkenny are irrelevant for this hypothesis, so Wexford or Carlow probably the only others that would make sense. I'd imagine Offaly and Laois into Munster would be the most efficient.

So,

Ulster : Donegal, Monaghan, Antrim, Armagh, Down, Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone.
Connacht : Cavan, Longford, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim and London.
Leinster: Louth, Meath, Dublin, Westmeath, Kildare, Carlow, Wicklow and Wexford.
Munster: Offaly, Laois, Tipperary, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kerry and Cork,

All to suit Sky TV.













I'll get my coat.  :)

Agree with almost all of that AZ but I would have Carlow and Wexford in Munster instead of Laois and Offaly. Makes geographical sense then for a North, South, East and West Championship.

Quote from: smort on April 08, 2014, 01:25:51 PM
Agree with almost all of that AZ but I would have Carlow and Wexford in Munster instead of Laois and Offaly. Makes geographical sense then for a North, South, East and West Championship.

But Carlow and Wexford would be more East than Offaly and Laois would be. Wexford to Clare would be a long auld spin for a Munster game. Offaly or Laois to Clare or Kerry is more manageable.

I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

Quote from: thewobbler on April 08, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

wobbler, I believe the FRC proposal retains the provincial silverware, it just means 4 counties will be playing for a different trophy than they have done previously.

Quote from: thewobbler on April 08, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

that does make some sense wobbler....

they will never go for it  :-\

Quote from: thewobbler on April 08, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

I'd agree with playing the provincial championships separately but I'd link the league rather than the provinces to the championship, which is knockout. More meaningful games, a good structure to the season, three worthwhile titles to compete for, your provincial, your division and Sam and more free weekends for clubs.

AZ, I would suggest that the value of a Provincial Championship isn't decided by a committee, it's decided by history and tradition.

Streamlining the provinces into pools of 8s doesn't maintain these mini championships, it just creates an artificial interim point in the journey towards an All Ireland.

It'll also cause bucketloads of ramifications down through club and schools championships, as you have to assume it would follow suit. And heaven knows how much politics would unfold through demarcation. I'd harbour a guess that Offaly and Laois might have to work harder for cash if they weren't guaranteed fixtures against Dublin at Croker every few years.

Quote from: thewobbler on April 08, 2014, 01:53:51 PM
AZ, I would suggest that the value of a Provincial Championship isn't decided by a committee, it's decided by history and tradition.

Streamlining the provinces into pools of 8s doesn't maintain these mini championships, it just creates an artificial interim point in the journey towards an All Ireland.

It'll also cause bucketloads of ramifications down through club and schools championships, as you have to assume it would follow suit. And heaven knows how much politics would unfold through demarcation. I'd harbour a guess that Offaly and Laois might have to work harder for cash if they weren't guaranteed fixtures against Dublin at Croker every few years.

No, I get you. I just thought you assumed the Provincial titles were being done away with, instead of realigned. I actually agree with you. Offaly winning a Connacht or Munster championship wouldn't mean much to me. Actually scratch that, what am i saying. Offaly winning a Connacht or Munster championship MATCH would mean a lot these days!

Quote
I'd agree with playing the provincial championships separately but I'd link the league rather than the provinces to the championship, which is knockout. More meaningful games, a good structure to the season, three worthwhile titles to compete for, your provincial, your division and Sam and more free weekends for clubs.

I had a wonderfully mad theory on doing this typed up a few years ago.

But the fundamental problem with having three titles worth winning at intercounty level is that by very nature, it would be detrimental to the club game, as county managers would make even more demands for exclusive ownership of players.

I've come around to the thinking that our only genuine solutions to reduce the load on players are:

1. Compress, where possible, the county season, thereby freeing more players up for club duty only.

OR

2.  Accept that elite players should be allowed to prosper in an elite environment, and make some sort of ruling that once involved in a county set-up, players are entirely removed from club/school/university/etc action until their county's season is over.


My heart says the former, but my head says the latter. It would take clubs a while to get used to not having their star players around, but if they could begin to look upon their availability as a bonus rather than a right (as happens in rugby and soccer),  it would help things. The motion to allow this to happen would though, in my opinion, never get through congress.

I think there are other things we can do wobbler. We can confine players to one code and age group, play the league and provincial championship simultaneously and play the championship as knockout (as already agreed). You need 6 weeks to play an provincial championship and 7 to play each division so thats 13 weeks. A February start means an early May finish with a week or two off built in. Clubs play non-IC competitions during this time. There's no easy solution to this but I think we need to look at separate seasons for club and county.

Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2014, 02:20:26 PM
I think there are other things we can do wobbler. We can confine players to one code and age group, play the league and provincial championship simultaneously and play the championship as knockout (as already agreed). You need 6 weeks to play an provincial championship and 7 to play each division so thats 13 weeks. A February start means an early May finish with a week or two off built in. Clubs play non-IC competitions during this time. There's no easy solution to this but I think we need to look at separate seasons for club and county.

Zulu, when you say confine players to one code and age group, I presume you mean at county level? I don't agree with it myself, and Tipp would have a huge amount of dual minors for example, but at club level that would be unworkable. You might as well forget about Football in Tipp or Hurling in 80% of counties.

Connacht comprises of Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon.
For GAA purposes Mayo have Ballaghaderreen Co Roscommon added while London and New York GAA Boards are also included probably because the bulk of emigrants over the years were from the Connacht Counties. So you can't have 4 eights if you start with 33 anyway.
The real Connacht Championship is played between those seven GAA entities.
If all this boloxology of moving Counties around the "Provinces" happens then they won't really be Provincial Championships.
Who is going to force 2 of Laois or Offaly or Carlow or Wexford into an eight team Group of Counties where Cork and Kerry will continue to rule the roost and apart from Laois bate the sh1te out of the newcomers?
THe FRC originally came up with a proposal that the losers of Prelim rounds in Leinster and Ulster be then parachuted into Connacht and Munster so they could also have 4 Qtr finals. This they said would make it handier for streamlining the Championships by playing all Qtr finals over 2 weekends.
So why can't they streamline the current system so all the Provincial Qtr Finals are played over the same 2 weekends.?
Obviosly they've gone away from the idea of parachuting the Prelim losers so then you're back to creating artificial groups of 8 and forcing some Counties out of the real Province and into a maky uppy "Province".
Wait till we have Cavan v Westmeath in a game billed as a "Connacht Final"
FFS pure illogical sh1teology.

I don't want that Itchy bollix in Connacht.

Yes AZ, I'm only talking about inter county. I don't accept the dual county argument, I know you're involved with Tipp football development squads so you might lose some of your better players if they had to chose at minor level but I think that's a small price to pay to give club players a better season and inter county players a better crack at their chosen code. Bear in mind you would be able to transform minor and U21 in both codes if they didn't have to worry about each other. These are grades which should have a big player development aspect to them but many lads only get a handful of championship games over a 3-5 year period of playing minor and U21 IC.

Well I think in a county like Tipp, where football is slowly struggling to gain parity, an edict like that would f**k us over completely, excuse my language. It's easy to be blasé about it when it doesn't impact you, but I think that would destroy all advances in Tipp, (and anywhere else a less dominant game is trying to carve out a niche for itself).

The counties that essentially practice this already, informally, are the ones who have no presence in the second code and that's hardly ideal GAA utopia either.

I think you should be free to play what you like in your age grade, and when you reach Senior you must chose, if you want to do that. It will still have an impact on 'dual' counties, but less so than imposing this at development squad age or minor. I simply cannot imagine a scenario where kids of 14, to 18 are being told they must choose between hurling and football, and having any sort of progress made in Football in Tipp.

Please god we'll win the championship game in the Eastern Conference.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2014, 03:38:30 PM
Well I think in a county like Tipp, where football is slowly struggling to gain parity, an edict like that would f**k us over completely, excuse my language. It's easy to be blasé about it when it doesn't impact you, but I think that would destroy all advances in Tipp, (and anywhere else a less dominant game is trying to carve out a niche for itself).

The counties that essentially practice this already, informally, are the ones who have no presence in the second code and that's hardly ideal GAA utopia either.

I think you should be free to play what you like in your age grade, and when you reach Senior you must chose, if you want to do that. It will still have an impact on 'dual' counties, but less so than imposing this at development squad age or minor. I simply cannot imagine a scenario where kids of 14, to 18 are being told they must choose between hurling and football, and having any sort of progress made in Football in Tipp.

I'm far from being blasé about it and I don't suggest this because it doesn't affect me, nothing in the Irish GAA season affects me, I have suggested this for a long time even as a club football coach in hurling counties.

I haven't suggested 14 year olds chose either. I'm talking minor, U21 and senior. If it was implemented then clubs would get a massive boost. As it is, if your a Tipp club with a dual player at IC U21 level and on one of the senior teams then you'll be hard pressed to see that guy from February to August. If you can can find a solution that doesn't break eggs then brilliant but I don't think that's possible.

The comparison with counties like Kilkenny or Tyrone doesn't hold true either IMO. You can have a very healthy dual club scene while limiting players to one code at inter county level. I played in two hurling counties but both had decent club football scenes bar the fact we had no structure to our season, which was due to IC action.

I don't agree with you Zulu I'm afraid. I'm on board with the whole idea of streamlining the county season, and making a structured calendar for clubs. I'm also in favour of constraining a player to a specific age band, in order to eliminate county U21s or senior being constrained by County Minor games, or vice versa. But to stop a lad who believes he can manage it, from playing for his county in both codes is a step too far for me, and in counties that rely on the dual player, especially at the naturally constrained 'age bands' would be a killer blow to development of the weaker code in those counties.

AZ, there'll be plenty of people who wouldn't agree with my proposal and for different reasons to yours but I think only a radical solution can solve the very real issues that exist. People have look beyond their own situation for a national solution. I've no real interest in any sport bar GAA but if I had a young son I'm not sure I'd be encouraging him down the GAA path. It would be grand for him if he's the next Aidan Walsh but if he's simply a decent club player he'll have a very dissatisfying club career ahead of him. I can honestly say I'd be very very slow to coach a club level again, particularly in a dual county, there's no satisfaction in it.

A national solution which negates all the work people have done in trying to promote hurling and football in counties which favour the other, is not a solution as far as I can see. Another one to file in the agree to disagree column so.  :D

Yerra don't worry about AZ, I'm sure there are topics on which you do know what you're talking about ;)

Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2014, 04:45:15 PM
Yerra don't worry about AZ, I'm sure there are topics on which you do know what you're talking about ;)

I'm not so sure about that.

I bet you can name every Offaly town starting with B? I'll get you started, Banagher, Birr.....

Quote from: Zulu on April 08, 2014, 04:55:29 PM
I bet you can name every Offaly town starting with B? I'll get you started, Banagher, Birr.....

Limiting to just B is very divisive in my view, and seriously handicaps people doing good work in towns beginning with other letters. Why should Ferbane, Clara and Tullamore bother if they're not allowed be in this list?

 ;D jaysus, I was only trying to build your shattered confidence. I've always said it, never deal with a man from a land locked county, being so far from the sea makes them unyielding, stubborn, obtuse and uncompromising which I'm assured are four different characteristics.

From now on only counties with a coast can play championship, you land lubbers can see who can throw midgets the farthest or some such for your sporting entertainment.

In all the times I've seen the "move this country to this other province" proposal, I've never seen it made by a poster from one of the counties that would move. It's somewhat easy as a (for example) Meath lad to say that Longford will play in Connacht but I'd love to know what the Longfords, Cavan's etc feel about it?

Em, I'm from Offaly. ** But I should add I'm not saying this is what should happen, I'm trying to guess what they'd suggest **

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2014, 05:16:58 PM
Em, I'm from Offaly. ** But I should add I'm not saying this is what should happen, I'm trying to guess what they'd suggest **

:-[ Missed that. Would it be fair to assume that the majority of Offaly folks wouldn't be that enamored with the idea though? That's where I feel the idea of moving counties around falls flat - why should a handful of counties give up their provincial heritage to suit the rest? If we feel that they should - then why not take one small step further and create 4 groups of 8 that have no link to the provinces. Think NW/NE/SW/SE instead of N/S/E/W. So the top half of Connacht and the western half of Ulster become one group etc. All counties get assigned to a new group and the provincial councils (and their championships) can remain as separate competitions/entities. Of course there's not a hope in hell of that happening, which brings us right back to where we are today.

Quote from: StephenC on April 08, 2014, 05:16:27 PM
In all the times I've seen the "move this country to this other province" proposal, I've never seen it made by a poster from one of the counties that would move. It's somewhat easy as a (for example) Meath lad to say that Longford will play in Connacht but I'd love to know what the Longfords, Cavan's etc feel about it?

It's total nonsense.
Do the proponents of this daftness also want it at underage and what about the hurling crowd?
Will there be new "Provincial" Councils or will Longford e.g.  play in "Connacht" but have no vote or role in fixture making etc on the Connacht Council? Will Longford have to play all their games in real Connacht or can they have home fixtures?
What happens if Longford, Cavan etc say "NO"?
Sure why not just have a draw every year to see who plays in each " 8 county Province". Now wouldn't that be fun?
By the way who's going to tell NY they are now gone and who's goin to tell JP and his fellow CC officers that there's no more trips* to NY for them?

* These trips are for the serious purpose of organising a Championship game. They are NOT Junkets ye cynical lot.

Is the GAA the only body who actually use the Provincial structure?

In Rugby its only a name now - players can be from anywhere in Ireland, never mind the world. As can the supporters it would seem.

Soccer - not that I know off.

Athletics - possibly at cross country level? But in the whole its a nationwide sport.

In every day life is the provincial system used at all?

Is it another GAA policy that is only retained for traditions sake when its functionality as it stands is long outdated and no longer practical?

Just wait for the Connacht Council to be the only province not to dismiss this idea immediately. Dollar signs on the eyelids.

Quote from: Syferus on April 08, 2014, 05:47:17 PM
Just wait for the Connacht Council to be the only province not to dismiss this idea immediately. Dollar signs on the eyelids.

HE ( bows, scrapes, tugs forelock)already says he's in favour of it - but doesn't want the parachutists confined to lower League teams.
Wait till they tell him about NY having to go. :)

Quote from: Bingo on April 08, 2014, 05:39:54 PM
Is the GAA the only body who actually use the Provincial structure?

In Rugby its only a name now - players can be from anywhere in Ireland, never mind the world. As can the supporters it would seem.

Soccer - not that I know off.

Athletics - possibly at cross country level? But in the whole its a nationwide sport.

In every day life is the provincial system used at all?

Is it another GAA policy that is only retained for traditions sake when its functionality as it stands is long outdated and no longer practical?

The GAA is built on traditions and the provincial system should be retained at all costs. But maybe it should be disconnected from the main AI series like some have suggested. As for the 8 team province idea, it will never work. Why should a county like Cavan give up our place in Ulster to play in a province we have no interest in?

I blame the English. They created the county system.

Quote from: Old yeller on April 08, 2014, 08:27:56 PM

Quote from: Bingo on April 08, 2014, 05:39:54 PM
Is the GAA the only body who actually use the Provincial structure?

In Rugby its only a name now - players can be from anywhere in Ireland, never mind the world. As can the supporters it would seem.

Soccer - not that I know off.

Athletics - possibly at cross country level? But in the whole its a nationwide sport.

In every day life is the provincial system used at all?

Is it another GAA policy that is only retained for traditions sake when its functionality as it stands is long outdated and no longer practical?

The GAA is built on traditions and the provincial system should be retained at all costs. But maybe it should be disconnected from the main AI series like some have suggested. As for the 8 team province idea, it will never work. Why should a county like Cavan give up our place in Ulster to play in a province we have no interest in?

I think we should introduce more random rules than ever before.

For example every year, after the Championship, supporters in each province would vote one county out of their province. In this way the county moved to another province would be grateful to be accepted into their new province. To keep things fair the Provincial Champions in that year would be immune from being voted out.

So going on last year Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Monaghan would have had immunity as provincial Champions.

Purely guessing for the benefit of this proposal, let's say the supporters in each province voted for Tyrone, Cork, Roscommon (unanimous) and Meath to be voted out. The AI Champions could earn the right to designate which province the ousted counties would go into. Let's say the Dubs picked Roscommon for Leinster and then put Tyrone in Munster and Cork in Ulster, thus leaving Meath to go into Connacht.

Then let's for the sake of argument say the provincial champions were: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Cork and the supporters voted out Armagh, Meath, Roscommon and Tyrone. If Kerry won the AI they might pick Roscommon for Munster and then put Tyrone into Leinster leaving Meath having to go to Ulster and Armagh into Connacht.

Then say the Provincial Champions were Mayo, Cork, Kerry and Dublin, with Cork beating Mayo in the Final, and the voted out counties were Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh. Cork would have to take Roscommon into Ulster, and then could send Tyrone into Connacht with Derry going to Leinster and Armagh into Munster.

This could be great craic altogether.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2014, 01:14:08 PM
Ulster : Donegal, Monaghan, Antrim, Armagh, Down, Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone.
Connacht : Cavan, Longford, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim and London.
Leinster: Louth, Meath, Dublin, Westmeath, Kildare, Carlow, Wicklow and Wexford.
Munster: Offaly, Laois, Tipperary, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kerry and Cork,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5FCdx7Dn0o)

Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta:
There was a buffalo soldier in the heart of Mu-un-ster-a,
Stolen from Le-in-ster-a, brought to Mu-un-ster-a ,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.
...
...
Dreadie, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!



I hope they bring some good weed with them.....

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Old yeller on April 08, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
[I think we should introduce more random rules than ever before.

For example every year, after the Championship, supporters in each province would vote one county out of their province. In this way the county moved to another province would be grateful to be accepted into their new province. To keep things fair the Provincial Champions in that year would be immune from being voted out.

So going on last year Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Monaghan would have had immunity as provincial Champions.

Purely guessing for the benefit of this proposal, let's say the supporters in each province voted for Tyrone, Cork, Roscommon (unanimous) and Meath to be voted out. The AI Champions could earn the right to designate which province the ousted counties would go into. Let's say the Dubs picked Roscommon for Leinster and then put Tyrone in Munster and Cork in Ulster, thus leaving Meath to go into Connacht.

Then let's for the sake of argument say the provincial champions were: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Cork and the supporters voted out Armagh, Meath, Roscommon and Tyrone. If Kerry won the AI they might pick Roscommon for Munster and then put Tyrone into Leinster leaving Meath having to go to Ulster and Armagh into Connacht.

Then say the Provincial Champions were Mayo, Cork, Kerry and Dublin, with Cork beating Mayo in the Final, and the voted out counties were Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh. Cork would have to take Roscommon into Ulster, and then could send Tyrone into Connacht with Derry going to Leinster and Armagh into Munster.

This could be great craic altogether.

New T O Rule 1-
County Board areas to be the same as Co Council areas.
New TO Rule 2
Any County that picks players from a town in another County to be suspended for 20 years.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 08, 2014, 09:14:12 PM

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Old yeller on April 08, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
[I think we should introduce more random rules than ever before.

For example every year, after the Championship, supporters in each province would vote one county out of their province. In this way the county moved to another province would be grateful to be accepted into their new province. To keep things fair the Provincial Champions in that year would be immune from being voted out.

So going on last year Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Monaghan would have had immunity as provincial Champions.

Purely guessing for the benefit of this proposal, let's say the supporters in each province voted for Tyrone, Cork, Roscommon (unanimous) and Meath to be voted out. The AI Champions could earn the right to designate which province the ousted counties would go into. Let's say the Dubs picked Roscommon for Leinster and then put Tyrone in Munster and Cork in Ulster, thus leaving Meath to go into Connacht.

Then let's for the sake of argument say the provincial champions were: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Cork and the supporters voted out Armagh, Meath, Roscommon and Tyrone. If Kerry won the AI they might pick Roscommon for Munster and then put Tyrone into Leinster leaving Meath having to go to Ulster and Armagh into Connacht.

Then say the Provincial Champions were Mayo, Cork, Kerry and Dublin, with Cork beating Mayo in the Final, and the voted out counties were Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh. Cork would have to take Roscommon into Ulster, and then could send Tyrone into Connacht with Derry going to Leinster and Armagh into Munster.

This could be great craic altogether.

New T O Rule 1-
County Board areas to be the same as Co Council areas.
New TO Rule 2
Any County that picks players from a town in another County to be suspended for 20 years.

Great idea:

(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map11.jpg)

This thread has real potential.

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 09:27:45 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 08, 2014, 09:14:12 PM

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Old yeller on April 08, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
[I think we should introduce more random rules than ever before.

For example every year, after the Championship, supporters in each province would vote one county out of their province. In this way the county moved to another province would be grateful to be accepted into their new province. To keep things fair the Provincial Champions in that year would be immune from being voted out.

So going on last year Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Monaghan would have had immunity as provincial Champions.

Purely guessing for the benefit of this proposal, let's say the supporters in each province voted for Tyrone, Cork, Roscommon (unanimous) and Meath to be voted out. The AI Champions could earn the right to designate which province the ousted counties would go into. Let's say the Dubs picked Roscommon for Leinster and then put Tyrone in Munster and Cork in Ulster, thus leaving Meath to go into Connacht.

Then let's for the sake of argument say the provincial champions were: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Cork and the supporters voted out Armagh, Meath, Roscommon and Tyrone. If Kerry won the AI they might pick Roscommon for Munster and then put Tyrone into Leinster leaving Meath having to go to Ulster and Armagh into Connacht.

Then say the Provincial Champions were Mayo, Cork, Kerry and Dublin, with Cork beating Mayo in the Final, and the voted out counties were Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh. Cork would have to take Roscommon into Ulster, and then could send Tyrone into Connacht with Derry going to Leinster and Armagh into Munster.

This could be great craic altogether.

New T O Rule 1-
County Board areas to be the same as Co Council areas.
New TO Rule 2
Any County that picks players from a town in another County to be suspended for 20 years.

Great idea:

(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map11.jpg)

This thread has real potential.

Why has that Council District in the middle got no name? Do they play GAA there?

At least Fermanagh would be ok.

Quote from: moysider on April 08, 2014, 09:46:06 PM

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 09:27:45 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 08, 2014, 09:14:12 PM

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Old yeller on April 08, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
[I think we should introduce more random rules than ever before.

For example every year, after the Championship, supporters in each province would vote one county out of their province. In this way the county moved to another province would be grateful to be accepted into their new province. To keep things fair the Provincial Champions in that year would be immune from being voted out.

So going on last year Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Monaghan would have had immunity as provincial Champions.

Purely guessing for the benefit of this proposal, let's say the supporters in each province voted for Tyrone, Cork, Roscommon (unanimous) and Meath to be voted out. The AI Champions could earn the right to designate which province the ousted counties would go into. Let's say the Dubs picked Roscommon for Leinster and then put Tyrone in Munster and Cork in Ulster, thus leaving Meath to go into Connacht.

Then let's for the sake of argument say the provincial champions were: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Cork and the supporters voted out Armagh, Meath, Roscommon and Tyrone. If Kerry won the AI they might pick Roscommon for Munster and then put Tyrone into Leinster leaving Meath having to go to Ulster and Armagh into Connacht.

Then say the Provincial Champions were Mayo, Cork, Kerry and Dublin, with Cork beating Mayo in the Final, and the voted out counties were Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh. Cork would have to take Roscommon into Ulster, and then could send Tyrone into Connacht with Derry going to Leinster and Armagh into Munster.

This could be great craic altogether.

New T O Rule 1-
County Board areas to be the same as Co Council areas.
New TO Rule 2
Any County that picks players from a town in another County to be suspended for 20 years.

Great idea:

(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map11.jpg)

This thread has real potential.

Why has that Council District in the middle got no name? Do they play GAA there?

f**king unionist Mermaids, typical.

Quote from: moysider on April 08, 2014, 09:46:06 PM

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 09:27:45 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 08, 2014, 09:14:12 PM

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 08:59:10 PM

Quote from: Old yeller on April 08, 2014, 08:27:56 PM
[I think we should introduce more random rules than ever before.

For example every year, after the Championship, supporters in each province would vote one county out of their province. In this way the county moved to another province would be grateful to be accepted into their new province. To keep things fair the Provincial Champions in that year would be immune from being voted out.

So going on last year Kerry, Dublin, Mayo and Monaghan would have had immunity as provincial Champions.

Purely guessing for the benefit of this proposal, let's say the supporters in each province voted for Tyrone, Cork, Roscommon (unanimous) and Meath to be voted out. The AI Champions could earn the right to designate which province the ousted counties would go into. Let's say the Dubs picked Roscommon for Leinster and then put Tyrone in Munster and Cork in Ulster, thus leaving Meath to go into Connacht.

Then let's for the sake of argument say the provincial champions were: Galway, Kerry, Dublin and Cork and the supporters voted out Armagh, Meath, Roscommon and Tyrone. If Kerry won the AI they might pick Roscommon for Munster and then put Tyrone into Leinster leaving Meath having to go to Ulster and Armagh into Connacht.

Then say the Provincial Champions were Mayo, Cork, Kerry and Dublin, with Cork beating Mayo in the Final, and the voted out counties were Roscommon, Tyrone, Derry & Armagh. Cork would have to take Roscommon into Ulster, and then could send Tyrone into Connacht with Derry going to Leinster and Armagh into Munster.

This could be great craic altogether.

New T O Rule 1-
County Board areas to be the same as Co Council areas.
New TO Rule 2
Any County that picks players from a town in another County to be suspended for 20 years.

Great idea:

(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/images/maps/map11.jpg)

This thread has real potential.

Why has that Council District in the middle got no name? Do they play GAA there?

Their pitch is unplayable at the moment.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 08, 2014, 02:50:56 PM
Connacht comprises of Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Leitrim and Roscommon.
For GAA purposes Mayo have Ballaghaderreen Co Roscommon added while London and New York GAA Boards are also included probably because the bulk of emigrants over the years were from the Connacht Counties. So you can't have 4 eights if you start with 33 anyway.
The real Connacht Championship is played between those seven GAA entities.
If all this boloxology of moving Counties around the "Provinces" happens then they won't really be Provincial Championships.
Who is going to force 2 of Laois or Offaly or Carlow or Wexford into an eight team Group of Counties where Cork and Kerry will continue to rule the roost and apart from Laois bate the sh1te out of the newcomers?
THe FRC originally came up with a proposal that the losers of Prelim rounds in Leinster and Ulster be then parachuted into Connacht and Munster so they could also have 4 Qtr finals. This they said would make it handier for streamlining the Championships by playing all Qtr finals over 2 weekends.
So why can't they streamline the current system so all the Provincial Qtr Finals are played over the same 2 weekends.?
Obviosly they've gone away from the idea of parachuting the Prelim losers so then you're back to creating artificial groups of 8 and forcing some Counties out of the real Province and into a maky uppy "Province".
Wait till we have Cavan v Westmeath in a game billed as a "Connacht Final"
FFS pure illogical sh1teology.

That would be more workable than a permanent realignment.

Reading suggestions regarding playing the provincials separately from the All Ireland (it then being an open draw), sounds good until think about it, to win both a provincial title and an All Ireland will almost double the number of championship games played (counting provincial as championship games).

This even if do away with back door, with same number of games to win provincial (for some, less for others) as would take to get to the Semi Final of All Ireland, and if keep back door it'll be same number of games to reach Quarter Final.

Doing away with McKenna Cup etc may clear some space early in the season, but how many people would attend a provincial match played in January and of those attending how many would take a child to stand or sit in freezing weather. I could see the Provincial Championships going the way of Railway Cups kicked from post to pillar and slowly dying.

I'd agree that prelim losers moving would probably be the best option but what would be the reaction if one of them did win another provinces title.  :P

Quote from: moysider on April 08, 2014, 09:46:06 PM
Why has that Council District in the middle got no name? Do they play GAA there?

Neagh idea man.

Quote from: emainmacha on April 08, 2014, 10:27:51 PM
Reading suggestions regarding playing the provincials separately from the All Ireland (it then being an open draw), sounds good until think about it, to win both a provincial title and an All Ireland will almost double the number of championship games played (counting provincial as championship games).

This even if do away with back door, with same number of games to win provincial (for some, less for others) as would take to get to the Semi Final of All Ireland, and if keep back door it'll be same number of games to reach Quarter Final.

Doing away with McKenna Cup etc may clear some space early in the season, but how many people would attend a provincial match played in January and of those attending how many would take a child to stand or sit in freezing weather. I could see the Provincial Championships going the way of Railway Cups kicked from post to pillar and slowly dying.

I'd agree that prelim losers moving would probably be the best option but what would be the reaction if one of them did win another provinces title.  :P

Um, not quite.

There would be basically the same number of games as currently. 33 counties with 4 provincial winners makes 29 provincial ties in either system. 33 entries on a straight knockout make 32 matches in an open All Ireland versus 31 there currently are in the back door.


So there's no need to move the provincials to January.

Start the league earlier. Play Provincials in April and May. All Ireland starts in first week of June. Job done.

There is no way we are going to accept moving. We are the aristocrats of Ulster football. How can you take the team that win 39 Ulster titles and put them over with the rock eaters in Connacht. No chance Cavan will buy into this silly idea. Would be like Kerry moving to Leinster. Let Donegal feck off over there, their love of sheep would be similar to the locals in Roscommon.

Quote from: Itchy on April 08, 2014, 11:08:43 PM
There is no way we are going to accept moving. We are the aristocrats of Ulster football. How can you take the team that win 39 Ulster titles and put them over with the rock eaters in Connacht. No chance Cavan will buy into this silly idea. Would be like Kerry moving to Leinster. Let Donegal feck off over there, their love of sheep would be similar to the locals in Roscommon.

How many of those yokes have ye won in the last forty years?

Quote from: muppet on April 08, 2014, 10:30:15 PM

Quote from: moysider on April 08, 2014, 09:46:06 PM
Why has that Council District in the middle got no name? Do they play GAA there?

Neagh idea man.

Me neagh da.

It specialises in supplying wiry corner backs

Quote from: Syferus on April 08, 2014, 11:14:25 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 08, 2014, 11:08:43 PM
There is no way we are going to accept moving. We are the aristocrats of Ulster football. How can you take the team that win 39 Ulster titles and put them over with the rock eaters in Connacht. No chance Cavan will buy into this silly idea. Would be like Kerry moving to Leinster. Let Donegal feck off over there, their love of sheep would be similar to the locals in Roscommon.

How many of those yokes have ye won in the last forty years?

You could make that 45! Still Cavan have a proud Ulster tradition and that cannot be just discarded to suit a knock out system.

Jaysus AZ, this is a very convoluted way of saying you wish you were a Munster-man!

Yeah yeah. Actually I'd hate if Offaly was asked to play in the Munster or Connacht Championship. A win over Clare will never mean the same as a win over Westmeath or Kildare. I'm just trying to guess what would make up this 8 team 'divisions'.

Quote from: thewobbler on April 08, 2014, 01:42:58 PM
By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

Perhaps a Shield/B/TM cup would work, but it would just have to be marketed and named properly.

I remember my town going absolutely nuts when we won the Dublin junior club championship. The fact that there were 10 or 15 other clubs in Dublin who'd bate shite out of us if we played them, didnt stop us celebrating like made that we were Dublin champions.

Having the likes of Cork or Kerry or Dublin etc winning All Ireland junior championships is a bit of joke in my opinion. Nobody in those counties gives a flying hoot about it, other than those directly involved.  But say Louth v Sligo in the All Ireland Intermediate championship final in Croke Park - would that be something that could work? An All Ireland title at stake and a place in the senior championship the following year. Giving so-called "weaker" counties something realistic to aim for. (Sligo might be a bad example as they feel they can give Connacht a go most years, but there's a lot of counties with no realistic chance of intercounty championship silverware every year)

Just don't give it a silly or demeaning name. And you could keep the provincial championships. The initial split of 16 senior and the rest intermediate might cause some unrest though!

I doubt it would get any traction Hound though it is a very logical idea. However, even though a lot of counties are out of their depth they seem to prefer playing for trophies they have little or no chance of ever winning. This is what you're up against when trying to devise a better season.

Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody. If you take that away from them for some makey up shite, forget about it. If you add some makey up shite instead of the All Ireland series, then maybe.

Tipp want to win a Munster Football Title in the next 5-10 years. It will be tough, it may never happen, but it's a goal. Don't take the goal away from them.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody. If you take that away from them for some makey up shite, forget about it. If you add some makey up shite instead of the All Ireland series, then maybe.

Tipp want to win a Munster Football Title in the next 5-10 years. It will be tough, it may never happen, but it's a goal. Don't take the goal away from them.

It's the hope that kills you.

Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2014, 10:46:39 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody. If you take that away from them for some makey up shite, forget about it. If you add some makey up shite instead of the All Ireland series, then maybe.

Tipp want to win a Munster Football Title in the next 5-10 years. It will be tough, it may never happen, but it's a goal. Don't take the goal away from them.

It's the hope that kills you.

It is, but it's also what keeps you going.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:47:39 AM

Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2014, 10:46:39 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody. If you take that away from them for some makey up shite, forget about it. If you add some makey up shite instead of the All Ireland series, then maybe.

Tipp want to win a Munster Football Title in the next 5-10 years. It will be tough, it may never happen, but it's a goal. Don't take the goal away from them.

It's the hope that kills you.

It is, but it's also what keeps you going.

Correct. 14 MO Sam!

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

No they are NOT.
Wicklow never
Fermanagh Never
Limerick 1896
Tipp 1935
Waterford ?????
Clare 1992 - only time in last 79 years that Cork/Kerry didn't win it.
Westmeath 1
Longford 1
Louth 2010
Kildare 2 Leinsters in almost 60 years
Leitrim 1927/1994
Sligo 1928/1975/2007
Antrim 1946

Teams that do badly in the Provincials know that going into a Separate AI/Back door is a waste of time.

Only way a B/Intermediate/Section2 or whatever would work would be if the winners/finalists got into the Sam Maguire race.
Then again that could be done by having a seeded "weaker" section of the draw/groups or whatever.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody. If you take that away from them for some makey up shite, forget about it. If you add some makey up shite instead of the All Ireland series, then maybe.

Tipp want to win a Munster Football Title in the next 5-10 years. It will be tough, it may never happen, but it's a goal. Don't take the goal away from them.

It's not realistic though, ok, maybe in a 'I could win the lotto kinda way' but not genuinely. Anyway, if the provincial system and, in particular, it's link to the All Ireland series wasn't having such a disastrous effect on attempts to run club championships and have a fair and exciting IC season then keep it. But it is having a negative impact on the GAA and all for the hope that Offaly, Waterford, Longford or Leitrim will a provincial championship. Sorry, but what we are harming to keep that fantasy alive is too much. I've said it before, hold the provincial championships as stand alone competitions if you like but linking them with the All Ireland is utter nonsense in practically every way you can think of.

QuoteProvincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

Really?

Dublin have won 9 of the last 12!

Kildare haven't won since 2000, Meath since 2001, Offaly since 1997 and Wexford since 1945. They are the 4 teams behind Dublin on the roll of honour.

Carlow, Longford, Westmeath and Wicklow have won 4 titles between them.

Dublin are only getting stronger 4 of the last 5 u21 Leinster titles and 3 of the last 5 minor titles. So over the last 5 years Dublin have won 11 of the 15 titles available at minor, u21 and Senior.

The Leinster Provincial Championship as a contest is dead. Once Dublin got organised and started utilising their competitive advantages it was only ever going to go one way.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 09, 2014, 10:53:58 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

No they are NOT.
Wicklow never
Fermanagh Never
Limerick 1896
Tipp 1935
Waterford ?????
Clare 1992 - only time in last 79 years that Cork/Kerry didn't win it.
Westmeath 1
Longford 1
Louth 2010
Kildare 2 Leinsters in almost 60 years
Leitrim 1927/1994
Sligo 1928/1975/2007
Antrim 1946

Teams that do badly in the Provincials know that going into a Separate AI/Back door is a waste of time.

Only way a B/Intermediate/Section2 or whatever would work would be if the winners/finalists got into the Sam Maguire race.
Then again that could be done by having a seeded "weaker" section of the draw/groups or whatever.

It is a realistic AIM for everyone. Of course your not going to win it often, and most years you'll lose, but if we take that to it's natural conclusion Mayo shouldn't be in the All Ireland Series. 1951.

In my lifetime I've seen Leitrim, Sligo, Westmeath, Laois, Kildare, Offaly and Clare win provincial senior football titles after long breaks or never before. I've seen Wexford, Tipperary, London(!) and Antrim in Provincial Finals.

If we limit the competitions to those that have a good record of winning them (as opposed to those who aim and aspire to do so) then the All Ireland should be between about 6 counties. when did Roscommon last win a Sam Maguire? They should be out in the B championship with the rest of us.

Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 09, 2014, 11:00:05 AM

QuoteProvincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

Really?

Dublin have won 9 of the last 12!

Kildare haven't won since 2000, Meath since 2001, Offaly since 1997 and Wexford since 1945. They are the 4 teams behind Dublin on the roll of honour.

Carlow, Longford, Westmeath and Wicklow have won 4 titles between them.

Dublin are only getting stronger 4 of the last 5 u21 Leinster titles and 3 of the last 5 minor titles. So over the last 5 years Dublin have won 11 of the 15 titles available at minor, u21 and Senior.

The Leinster Provincial Championship as a contest is dead. Once Dublin got organised and started utilising their competitive advantages it was only ever going to go one way.

The best case I've seen made yet for making Dublin a Province and setting up 4 County Boards.
Well done Dinny.

Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 09, 2014, 11:00:05 AM

QuoteProvincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

Really?

Dublin have won 9 of the last 12!

Kildare haven't won since 2000, Meath since 2001, Offaly since 1997 and Wexford since 1945. They are the 4 teams behind Dublin on the roll of honour.

Carlow, Longford, Westmeath and Wicklow have won 4 titles between them.

Dublin are only getting stronger 4 of the last 5 u21 Leinster titles and 3 of the last 5 minor titles. So over the last 5 years Dublin have won 11 of the 15 titles available at minor, u21 and Senior.

The Leinster Provincial Championship as a contest is dead. Once Dublin got organised and started utilising their competitive advantages it was only ever going to go one way.

Dinny, if we do away with competitions on that basis, then the All Ireland should be scrapped. Only Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Cork have won it in the past 10 years or so, and teams like Mayo, Roscommon, Offaly, Kildare, Derry, Cavan etc etc haven't won it in decades.

I think the provincial championship is a realistic target for everyone, at least to reach a final. As I've said, several teams have reached provincial finals, or won them, in the not distant past that have never done so before. That's because they had an aim, a dream, and worked towards it.

By all means introduce a secondary or tertiary competition after the Provincial championships, instead of that bolloxology Qualifer system. But at least let the likes of Tipp and Sligo and Leitrim dream of a provincial title against the big boys the odd time.

I made a proposal a while ago to tie the leagues to a seeded draw in the Provinces, whereby the top ranked Leinster team would play the bottom ranked team in that years Leinster championship, etc.  This would make the leagues even more important as teams scramble for a good seeding, and also allows them to retain a shot a provincial title. After that, it's straight knockout all the way through to Sam Maguire.

I think the Qualifers are largely a waste of time. Of course you get the odd mouth watering tie, but in reality its mostly a case of poor teams getting waxed twice, and actually about making sure Kerry, Dublin, Mayo or whomever get another chance to be at the party on the August Bank Holiday weekend.

If we don't tie the league to the championship, then I'd not be against the notion of a Provincial Championship, leading to All Ireland series for say the finalists in each province, A B championship for beaten semi finalists and a C championship for those beaten before that.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 11:03:46 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 09, 2014, 10:53:58 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 10:43:41 AM
Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

No they are NOT.
Wicklow never
Fermanagh Never
Limerick 1896
Tipp 1935
Waterford ?????
Clare 1992 - only time in last 79 years that Cork/Kerry didn't win it.
Westmeath 1
Longford 1
Louth 2010
Kildare 2 Leinsters in almost 60 years
Leitrim 1927/1994
Sligo 1928/1975/2007
Antrim 1946

Teams that do badly in the Provincials know that going into a Separate AI/Back door is a waste of time.

Only way a B/Intermediate/Section2 or whatever would work would be if the winners/finalists got into the Sam Maguire race.
Then again that could be done by having a seeded "weaker" section of the draw/groups or whatever.

It is a realistic AIM for everyone. Of course your not going to win it often, and most years you'll lose, but if we take that to it's natural conclusion Mayo shouldn't be in the All Ireland Series. 1951.

In my lifetime I've seen Leitrim, Sligo, Westmeath, Laois, Kildare, Offaly and Clare win provincial senior football titles after long breaks or never before. I've seen Wexford, Tipperary, London(!) and Antrim in Provincial Finals.

If we limit the competitions to those that have a good record of winning them (as opposed to those who aim and aspire to do so) then the All Ireland should be between about 6 counties. when did Roscommon last win a Sam Maguire? They should be out in the B championship with the rest of us.

The dream of winning the lotto is a realistic AIM for us all and if a guy with a good job buys two lines weekly then that's fine but if a guy on the dole is spending 60% of the money he has chasing a lotto win every week then it isn't fine. IMO we are paying too high a price for unrealistic dreams. Anyone who argues for the retention of the provincial championships needs to explain how it can be done within a well structured IC season that allows club players well organised and structured club seasons.

I think I've done that a couple of times at this point.

1 - The Leagues are played as normal, but your finishing position in the league determines your seeding in the Provincial Championship.
2 - Provincial Championship is played with these seedings determining the draw. Straight knock out all the way to the All Ireland.
3 - If you lose you're gone. Done. Dusted.

This will increase the importance and the prestige of the league, and will eliminate the superfluous Qualifer matches that make absolutely no material difference to anybody at the end of the day. I'd prefer to see Offaly play Clare in division 4 of the league, knowing that a win would give us the 10th seed in the Leinster championship, and a draw against Westmeath, than see Offaly play Clare in Round 1 of the qualifiers in Ennis with the winner to be annihalated by Tyrone, Mayo or Kerry in the next round.

QuoteIf we don't tie the league to the championship, then I'd not be against the notion of a Provincial Championship, leading to All Ireland series for say the finalists in each province, A B championship for beaten semi finalists and a C championship for those beaten before that.

Do you think Ulster teams would think it's fair that Kerry and Cork would almost be guaranteed a one game shot at an All Ireland semi final spot each year while Tyrone or Donegal could end up in a C championship (which they wouldn't play in I'd say, not there actual team anyway)?

QuoteI made a proposal a while ago to tie the leagues to a seeded draw in the Provinces, whereby the top ranked Leinster team would play the bottom ranked team in that years Leinster championship, etc.  This would make the leagues even more important as teams scramble for a good seeding, and also allows them to retain a shot a provincial title. After that, it's straight knockout all the way through to Sam Maguire.

Don't think that would add much to the league as it simply gives Cork and Kerry the 1 & 2 seeds every year, Mayo one of the top 2 seeds every year etc. In other words the strong teams and the weak teams would already know they're seeds more or less before the league starts.

Quote from: Itchy on April 08, 2014, 11:08:43 PM
There is no way we are going to accept moving. We are the aristocrats of Ulster football. How can you take the team that win 39 Ulster titles and put them over with the rock eaters in Connacht. No chance Cavan will buy into this silly idea. Would be like Kerry moving to Leinster. Let Donegal feck off over there, their love of sheep would be similar to the locals in Roscommon.

Spot on Itchy!

It adds to the league in that all the teams below will be scrambling to avoid a Kerry or a Cork in round one. Sure f**k it, let's scrap every competition for everyone that doesn't have at least 5 titles in the last 20 years.

Put all the annoying little teams like tipp, Clare, Offaly, Westmeath Sligo and the like in their own little shite tournament that nobody gives a f**k about, and let the real serious teams play each other. Who wants to see a team like that in the All Ireland semi final or final anyway.

Sorry AZ, I'm a bit behind on your posts so I've addressed some of my concerns with your proposal in my last post but you still haven't addressed how it helps clubs.

But if we take your seeded idea, then the If Tipp get seeded 3 they'll have to play Cork or Kerry in a Munster semi final every year after both Cork and Kerry have had a warm up game against the likes of Waterford or Clare. I don't see how that adds to the league for any of the teams or improves the Munster championship from what it is now.

QuoteIt adds to the league in that all the teams below will be scrambling to avoid a Kerry or a Cork in round one.

No it doesn't. If Waterford and Clare are in division 4 and Tipp and Limerick are in division 3 then the seeds are set before a single league game is played.

QuoteSure f**k it, let's scrap every competition for everyone that doesn't have at least 5 titles in the last 20 years.

Nobody is saying that.

QuotePut all the annoying little teams like tipp, Clare, Offaly, Westmeath Sligo and the like in their own little shite tournament that nobody gives a f**k about, and let the real serious teams play each other. Who wants to see a team like that in the All Ireland semi final or final anyway.

Or this.

Well in my proposal, I've actually given byes to the top seeds, so lets take this year in Munster.

#1 seed is Cork, #2 is Kerry, #3 is Limerick, #4 is Tipperary, #5 is Clare, #6 is Waterford.

the Draw would be Limerick v Waterford, winners to play Cork. Tipperary to play Clare, winners to play Kerry.

As the years go by, it's in your interests to finish as high up the league you can, to try and get as high a seed as possible.  This has to make the league more important. Westmeath this year would have a lovely draw in Leinster by virtue of them getting into Division 1 last season. They'd be #3 Leinster.

Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2014, 11:35:52 AM

QuoteIt adds to the league in that all the teams below will be scrambling to avoid a Kerry or a Cork in round one.

No it doesn't. If Waterford and Clare are in division 4 and Tipp and Limerick are in division 3 then the seeds are set before a single league game is played.

QuoteSure f**k it, let's scrap every competition for everyone that doesn't have at least 5 titles in the last 20 years.

Nobody is saying that.

QuotePut all the annoying little teams like tipp, Clare, Offaly, Westmeath Sligo and the like in their own little shite tournament that nobody gives a f**k about, and let the real serious teams play each other. Who wants to see a team like that in the All Ireland semi final or final anyway.

Or this.

I've answered the first one, but as regards the second and third points, I think people are saying exactly that. Scrap the provincial tournaments, and Add B and C competitions that these teams can realistically win. Give them a pat on the head and let them play away. Sure we might even let ye be the curtain raisers before Kerry play Tyrone in the All Ireland.

Sorry if I'm a bit abrupt on this, I'm trying to do a bit of work as well, but I absolutely believe that all teams are entitled to have their shot at a provincial title, against the big boys in their province. I would absolutely reject any system which eliminates that. It's not just about the squad and the managers, who can set whatever targets they feel like, in other competitions, and deem it a success or failure depending on how far they go in competition A or B. It's also about how it makes the county feel, and how it makes the kids on the street feel.

I've said, and I repeat, I'd not be against B or C Championships if they came AFTER you were eliminated from the Province, and were played instead of the Qualifiers.  The one thing that would be a draw back in that scenario is that Clubs would be no more certain than they are now, where the uncertainty of the Qualifiers have caused fixture headaches.

This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

That's your interpretation of what's being said AZ but it isn't what I'm saying and I don't think anyone else here is saying that.

I'm pretty sure your proposal is a variation of my own one so I do agree with some of the points you make but in seeding teams based solely on their province then you are in effect making counties like Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone number 1 or 2 seeds every year. So for example if Tipp got as far as division 2 they'd still have to beat both Cork and Kerry to win a Munster while now they might only have to beat one. So for all their good work they could be out of the championship after beating Waterford and losing to Cork in a Munster semi final.

Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2014, 11:47:16 AM
That's your interpretation of what's being said AZ but it isn't what I'm saying and I don't think anyone else here is saying that.

I'm pretty sure your proposal is a variation of my own one so I do agree with some of the points you make but in seeding teams based solely on their province then you are in effect making counties like Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone number 1 or 2 seeds every year. So for example if Tipp got as far as division 2 they'd still have to beat both Cork and Kerry to win a Munster while now they might only have to beat one. So for all their good work they could be out of the championship are beating Waterford and losing to Cork in a Munster semi final.

Remind me of yours again so? How do Tipp win a Munster ? (not smart, I just can't remember).

Quote from: omagh_gael on April 09, 2014, 11:47:01 AM
This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

I honestly think the Qualifiers are a waste of time. If Kerry are beaten by Cork, they should be gone.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 11:52:26 AM

Quote from: omagh_gael on April 09, 2014, 11:47:01 AM
This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

I honestly think the Qualifiers are a waste of time. If Kerry are beaten by Cork, they should be gone.

The qualifiers have been very good to the big teams. Other than a few celebrated runs from say Sligo in 2002 and Fermanagh in 2004 there has been very little point to the qualifiers.

If the objective is more games then the clubs complain and they have a point given the completely unplanned nature of the qualifier schedule. There has to be a better way.

Quote from: muppet on April 09, 2014, 11:55:01 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 11:52:26 AM

Quote from: omagh_gael on April 09, 2014, 11:47:01 AM
This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

I honestly think the Qualifiers are a waste of time. If Kerry are beaten by Cork, they should be gone.

The qualifiers have been very good to the big teams. Other than a few celebrated runs from say Sligo in 2002 and Fermanagh in 2004 there has been very little point to the qualifiers.

If the objective is more games then the clubs complain and they have a point given the completely unplanned nature of the qualifier schedule. There has to be a better way.

I agree with you on this :D

That's why I'd not necessarily be against a secondary or tertiary competition for weaker counties, depending on when they exit the province. But as I said, that doesn't really alleviate the issue about club uncertainty. It would make those competitions a bit more competitive and realistic for those counties to win. The question would be would they care?

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 11:09:57 AM

Quote from: Dinny Breen on April 09, 2014, 11:00:05 AM

QuoteProvincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

Really?

Dublin have won 9 of the last 12!

Kildare haven't won since 2000, Meath since 2001, Offaly since 1997 and Wexford since 1945. They are the 4 teams behind Dublin on the roll of honour.

Carlow, Longford, Westmeath and Wicklow have won 4 titles between them.

Dublin are only getting stronger 4 of the last 5 u21 Leinster titles and 3 of the last 5 minor titles. So over the last 5 years Dublin have won 11 of the 15 titles available at minor, u21 and Senior.

The Leinster Provincial Championship as a contest is dead. Once Dublin got organised and started utilising their competitive advantages it was only ever going to go one way.

Dinny, if we do away with competitions on that basis, then the All Ireland should be scrapped. Only Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Cork have won it in the past 10 years or so, and teams like Mayo, Roscommon, Offaly, Kildare, Derry, Cavan etc etc haven't won it in decades.

I think the provincial championship is a realistic target for everyone, at least to reach a final. As I've said, several teams have reached provincial finals, or won them, in the not distant past that have never done so before. That's because they had an aim, a dream, and worked towards it.

By all means introduce a secondary or tertiary competition after the Provincial championships, instead of that bolloxology Qualifer system. But at least let the likes of Tipp and Sligo and Leitrim dream of a provincial title against the big boys the odd time.

Sorry AZ I know your debating lots of different points here, you stated a provincial title is a realist goal. History tells us otherwise and with the behemoth that is now Dublin  it has never been further away for the majority of counties in Leinster. You have
3 Tiers in Leinster Tier 1 Dublin (expectations aren't measured in Leinsters)  Tier 2 Kildare, Meath, Laois, Westmeath, Louth (a Leinster final is a good season) Tier 3 Longford, Wicklow, Carlow, Offaly (1 championship win is a good season). Of the 10 other teams in Leinster only one Meath would you fancy, maybe, to put it up to Dublin but certainly not to win.

People can dream all you want but any sports psychologist will tell you your goals have to be a realistic. Can anyone realistically see any competition to Dublin in Leinster over the next 10 years, I certainly can't.

AZ seems to be saying that anyone not praising the Provincial Championships is somehow arguing against their continuance.
They WILL be kept no matter what format/structure comes in in time.
I am in favour of keeping them too as real Provinces not 8 team artificial makyuppy ones.
Problem is if they are too linked to the AI then Cork/Kerry/Dublin are nearly always going to be in the last 12 at worst while the better Ulster teams will have a long hard struggle to get that far every year.
So the question then becomes  -how can we keep the Provincials linked to the AI but not as much so as at present so that Ulster (and hopefully Connacht in a year or 2 when we all catch up on the Rhubarb colossus) teams have a more level playing field?
Question 2 - has anyone surveyed the players of the "weaker " Counties to see do they want separate National competitions to the Qualifiers?
Q 3- Should Counties be allowed opt out of the Qualifiers - esp after last year's debacles with Leitrim, Offaly and Wicklow?

Of course a proper calendar of fixtures to allow Club Championships to advance in tandem with Inter Co Championships is a MUST no matter what else the future brings.

Quote from: Syferus on April 08, 2014, 11:14:25 PM

Quote from: Itchy on April 08, 2014, 11:08:43 PM
There is no way we are going to accept moving. We are the aristocrats of Ulster football. How can you take the team that win 39 Ulster titles and put them over with the rock eaters in Connacht. No chance Cavan will buy into this silly idea. Would be like Kerry moving to Leinster. Let Donegal feck off over there, their love of sheep would be similar to the locals in Roscommon.

How many of those yokes have ye won in the last forty years?

I know if there was a vote to get rid of a county from connacht It would be easy predict who would be booted out. Not sure who'd take ye in but.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 11:49:11 AM

Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2014, 11:47:16 AM
That's your interpretation of what's being said AZ but it isn't what I'm saying and I don't think anyone else here is saying that.

I'm pretty sure your proposal is a variation of my own one so I do agree with some of the points you make but in seeding teams based solely on their province then you are in effect making counties like Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone number 1 or 2 seeds every year. So for example if Tipp got as far as division 2 they'd still have to beat both Cork and Kerry to win a Munster while now they might only have to beat one. So for all their good work they could be out of the championship are beating Waterford and losing to Cork in a Munster semi final.

Remind me of yours again so? How do Tipp win a Munster ? (not smart, I just can't remember).

Tipp can't win a Munster senior football title but that's not a major goal of my proposal ;D

Anyway here is my proposal for club and county.

1. No provincial championship at senior level. Seed teams for an open draw based on league performance. Minor and U21 played on the geographical basis of 4 groups of 8, top 2 in each group qualify for QF's. Nobody is allowed to play more than one code or level.

If we take this year as an example then the following would happen

Mar 1 & 2 - Rd 1 of leagues Senior F & H.
               - Rd 1 of Minor & U21 group games F & H
Apr 12 & 13 - Last rd of leagues F & H - divisional champions crowned
                  - Last Rd of group stages of minor & U21 championship F & H, quarter finalists known. [MINOR CHAMPIONSHIPS IN ALL BUT 8 COUNTIES COULD NOW START WITH NO CHANCE OF INTER COUNTY INTERFERING]

Apr 19 & 20 - OFF

Apr 26 & 27 - Rd 1 F championship
                  - QF minor & U21 F & H championship [16 COUNTIES COULD NOW START THEIR SENIOR AND/OR U21 CHAMPIONSHIPS WITHOUT INTER COUNTY INTERFERENCE]

May 3 & 4 - Rd 1 H championship A & B (A = div 1 & 2, B = rest) [8 COUNTIES COULD NOW POTENTIALLY START THEIR SENIOR CLUB CHAMPIONSHIPS WITHOUT INTER COUNTY INTERFERENCE]

May 10 & 11 - Rd 2 F championship
                   - SF minor & U21 championships

May 17 & 18 - QF H

May 24 & 25 - QF F
                   - Final minor & U21 F & H [EVERY MINOR FOOTBALL & HURLING CHAMPIONSHIP IN IRELAND CAN BE SET OUT NOW]

May 31 & June 1 - SF - H

June 7 & 8 - SF - F

June 15 - All Ireland hurling final

June 29 - All Ireland football final

Now there are a few issues there, playing All Ireland semi finals on Saturday being one but they would be minor enough challenges and there is a bit of leeway in the calendar there. With most club championships in full swing by June getting the All Ireland club championship done by the end of the year should be achievable. This would wipe out players being pulled from pillar to post by multiple teams, give club players a clear season, increase the number of meaningful games IC players play and give everyone a chance of realistically winning something.

I got as far as point 1, sentence 1, before I shook my head. I said ye wanted to abolish the Provincial Championships! :D

Essentially your system is that a county has to win an All Ireland title, or nothing at all? Is that the gist of it?

That took me a long time to type out so I hope you bloody read it at least!!!!

No, teams can win their division as well as an All Ireland, but because they are linked winning a division will become a much bigger deal. AZ you're a bit like the guys giving out about the Sky part of the deal when I feel the important point id the overall season.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the provincial championships but if you can come up with a format that retains them, gives all inter county players a decent season and club players a decent season then I'm all ears. If your only point is that Tipp or someone like them could, maybe, might win a provincial championship once every 30 or 40 years then I don't think that's a price worth paying for screwing over every club player in Ireland.

Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2014, 03:47:32 PM
That took me a long time to type out so I hope you bloody read it at least!!!!

No, teams can win their division as well as an All Ireland, but because they are linked winning a division will become a much bigger deal. AZ you're a bit like the guys giving out about the Sky part of the deal when I feel the important point id the overall season.

Personally I'm not a big fan of the provincial championships but if you can come up with a format that retains them, gives all inter county players a decent season and club players a decent season then I'm all ears. If your only point is that Tipp or someone like them could, maybe, might win a provincial championship once every 30 or 40 years then I don't think that's a price worth paying for screwing over every club player in Ireland.

Nothing like a bit of hyperbole :D Provincial Championships don't screw every player in Ireland. The rubbish Qualifiers, and the fact that the Provincial Championships can't all run closely aligned do each other do that..

I did read the rest of it, I just started shaking my head immediately.  You have to accept that for players, fans and coaches, a Provincial title is still a very worthy goal and an achievement, and is something they want to partake in, and hopefully someday win. I realise Dublin, Kerry, Mayo  the like have a glut of Provincial titles, and wouldn't be calling the season a success simply on the basis of one, but I can tell you Kerry men love their Munster wins, and I'm sure the lads in Mayo like being top of the pile out west.

I'm not arguing that things are perfect as they are. I would certainly eliminate the qualifiers. For example, if we are to take your proposal, which I think does eliminate any back door stuff, then why not simply say the First round all Championships that take 4 rounds takes place on April 26th and 27th. This would be the first round in Leinster and the preliminary round in Ulster.

Then two weeks later, May 10th, the 2nd Round Leinster, 1st round Proper Ulster, and Quarter Finals in Munster and Connacht.

Two weeks after that, MAy 24th and 25th, All 4 provincial semi finals.

2 weeks after that, SUPER WEEKEND, provincial finals in all 4 provinces. That brings us to June 7th and 8th.

Now you go onto the All Ireland series. You could just say Winners only, old school, so Semi Finals on June 21st and 22nd.

Final July 6th. Alternatively add an extra fortnight for provincial finalists to come back in a second chance quarter final.


A drawback I can see being raised is the inter county season being over so early is poor for exposure. The height of summer is when we want our games being watched and played. Of course it would be great for the club player.

1.The mckenna cup and associated competitions are scrapped and the league is started earlier.

2.The league is changed to 3 divisions  (2 of 10 and 1 of 11 teams), with more emphasis placed on the value of winning the league as a competition in its own right.

3.The final league placings are used then as a method for qualifying for an A or B all ireland with the top 16 taking part in the premier competition and the rest in a secondary competion.

4.The top division would be made up of the 15 highest placed counties in the league ( all of div 1 and top 5 in div 2) and the winners of the 'B' compettion from the previous year.

5.The provincial championships are retained as a stand alone cup competition played between the league & championship (an FA cup type competition for want of a better term)


6.this leaves a Last 16 knockout type all ireland competition for the sam maguire and a similar format for the secondary competition.

I know the argument will be against a secondary competition, that it will demotivate the smaller counties, but i feel in the overall format there will be enough routes for progress for the smaller counties by progressing up the league ( a top half div 2 finish) or winning the 'B' competition.

Not perfect i know but just a  suggestion.
It would leave the IC season more compact and easier to plan, and allow more room for the club fixtures.

One of the main issues at the minute is getting enough 'meaningful' games for IC players without using up the whole calendar for club football.
The approach to this in the past has been to introduce MORE games in the allireland series, rather than make the games that are already there more meaningful in the overall scheme of things .

This would leave every IC player getting :
9 league games (which will dictate which level of championship they get to play at)
at least 1 provincial championship match (max 4)

at least 1 all ireland series match (max 4)

which gives a minimum season of 11 games and a maximum of 17 games ( if you were to reach both the all ireland final & your provincial final)

The ultimate achievment for a county team would be to win the 'treble' (league, provincial & all ireland)
Every county would have at least 2 'do or die' knockout championship games per year (one in the provincials and one in the all ireland series)

feel free to point out the flaws, its only a suggestion!
:-\

QuoteNothing like a bit of hyperbole :D Provincial Championships don't screw every player in Ireland. The rubbish Qualifiers, and the fact that the Provincial Championships can't all run closely aligned do each other do that..

Jayney your paranoia is getting the better of you AZ :) I didn't say the provincial championships are screwing club players, the season is, of which the provincials are part of it. The qualifiers are in response to an attempt to keep the provincial championships.

QuoteI did read the rest of it, I just started shaking my head immediately.  You have to accept that for players, fans and coaches, a Provincial title is still a very worthy goal and an achievement, and is something they want to partake in, and hopefully someday win. I realise Dublin, Kerry, Mayo  the like have a glut of Provincial titles, and wouldn't be calling the season a success simply on the basis of one, but I can tell you Kerry men love their Munster wins, and I'm sure the lads in Mayo like being top of the pile out west.

I'd accept all that.

QuoteI'm not arguing that things are perfect as they are. I would certainly eliminate the qualifiers. For example, if we are to take your proposal, which I think does eliminate any back door stuff, then why not simply say the First round all Championships that take 4 rounds takes place on April 26th and 27th. This would be the first round in Leinster and the preliminary round in Ulster.

Then two weeks later, May 10th, the 2nd Round Leinster, 1st round Proper Ulster, and Quarter Finals in Munster and Connacht.

Two weeks after that, MAy 24th and 25th, All 4 provincial semi finals.

2 weeks after that, SUPER WEEKEND, provincial finals in all 4 provinces. That brings us to June 7th and 8th.

Now you go onto the All Ireland series. You could just say Winners only, old school, so Semi Finals on June 21st and 22nd.

Final July 6th. Alternatively add an extra fortnight for provincial finalists to come back in a second chance quarter final.


A drawback I can see being raised is the inter county season being over so early is poor for exposure. The height of summer is when we want our games being watched and played. Of course it would be great for the club player.

That's fine but I think that would kill the GAA in an era of ever increasing exposure for other codes. If we did that then lots of counties would be gone after one championship game and the footballers of Waterford, Clare and Tipp would know they'd have to face Cork and Kerry every year. My suggestion gives them a pathway to success that potentially by passes their traditional nemeses. Your plan also doesn't deal with minor and U21 F & H which is a big problem for clubs too.

There's no easy solution here but I think anyone who says the solution has to include something is already tying our hands behind our backs. No matter what you do there'll be pros and cons, for me the key is whether the solution delivers more pros than cons to the majority of players, coaches and fans. I think my proposal does that whereas ones which are built around the provinces don't. But sure I'm not going to convince you at this stage so I'll just have to become president and get you and your ilk suspended from the association, that's the way it works, right?

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 09, 2014, 04:14:04 PM
1.The mckenna cup and associated competitions are scrapped and the league is started earlier.

2.The league is changed to 3 divisions  (2 of 10 and 1 of 11 teams), with more emphasis placed on the value of winning the league as a competition in its own right.

3.The final league placings are used then as a method for qualifying for an A or B all ireland with the top 16 taking part in the premier competition and the rest in a secondary competion.

4.The top division would be made up of the 15 highest placed counties in the league ( all of div 1 and top 5 in div 2) and the winners of the 'B' compettion from the previous year.

5.The provincial championships are retained as a stand alone cup competition played between the league & championship (an FA cup type competition for want of a better term)


6.this leaves a Last 16 knockout type all ireland competition for the sam maguire and a similar format for the secondary competition.

I know the argument will be against a secondary competition, that it will demotivate the smaller counties, but i feel in the overall format there will be enough routes for progress for the smaller counties by progressing up the league ( a top half div 2 finish) or winning the 'B' competition.

Not perfect i know but just a  suggestion.
It would leave the IC season more compact and easier to plan, and allow more room for the club fixtures.

One of the main issues at the minute is getting enough 'meaningful' games for IC players without using up the whole calendar for club football.
The approach to this in the past has been to introduce MORE games in the allireland series, rather than make the games that are already there more meaningful in the overall scheme of things .

This would leave every IC player getting :
9 league games (which will dictate which level of championship they get to play at)
at least 1 provincial championship match (max 4)

at least 1 all ireland series match (max 4)

which gives a minimum season of 11 games and a maximum of 17 games ( if you were to reach both the all ireland final & your provincial final)

The ultimate achievment for a county team would be to win the 'treble' (league, provincial & all ireland)
Every county would have at least 2 'do or die' knockout championship games per year (one in the provincials and one in the all ireland series)

feel free to point out the flaws, its only a suggestion!
:-\

I'd have no problem with playing the provincials on their own but I'd like to see how hurling and minor and U21 fit in to the overall plan. Everything has to included to see if your doing enough for everyone. That's why I'd break as many links between codes and grades as possible so that you free up your hand a bit. I also think only the middle division would be really competitive as a lot of teams could end up with no relegation or promotion goals with 3 or 4 rounds left in div 1 & 3.

Just a couple of things...

QuoteThat's fine but I think that would kill the GAA in an era of ever increasing exposure for other codes. If we did that then lots of counties would be gone after one championship game and the footballers of Waterford, Clare and Tipp would know they'd have to face Cork and Kerry every year. My suggestion gives them a pathway to success that potentially by passes their traditional nemeses. Your plan also doesn't deal with minor and U21 F & H which is a big problem for clubs too.

Not sure I get this. Unless I'm mistaken, your proposal means 16 counties will be gone after one championship game, and the season finishes even earlier than in what I said? And if the pathway to success means winning something, then they have an even tougher journey in a seeded open draw championship I'd say.

Quote
There's no easy solution here but I think anyone who says the solution has to include something is already tying our hands behind our backs. No matter what you do there'll be pros and cons, for me the key is whether the solution delivers more pros than cons to the majority of players, coaches and fans. I think my proposal does that whereas ones which are built around the provinces don't. But sure I'm not going to convince you at this stage so I'll just have to become president and get you and your ilk suspended from the association, that's the way it works, right?[

Yes, but the overseas vote will be fiercely resisted. I'll do a deal with you, when Offaly win Leinster, and Tipp win Munster, we'll dissolve the provincial championships and you can do what you like...

An Inter county season finishing in June or 1st week in July  as suggested by AZ and ZULU WON'T be happenin lads.
NFL every 2nd week from 1st weekend in Feb with Club Leagues on the in between weekend.
No NFL Semi finals so NFL 2/2,16/2,2/3,16/3,30/3,13/4,27/4 and play offs/Finals May weekend. A player can only be one 1IC Panel at any given time so U21 Championship to be played NFL weekends.
Provincials as they are but dates as follows
Prelims 11/5
Qtrs 25/5
Semis 15/6
Finals 5&6 July
Qualifiers to be rebranded as simply All Ireland Championship
Round 1 14/6
Round 2 5/7
Round 3 12/7
Round 4  19/7
AI QFs 26/27 July
AI SFs 16/17 Aug - both same weekend
AIF 8/9.
Club players can be told to take their Summer holidays early/mid July by which time they should all be at Qtr Final stages so some lads would only have Leagues left anyway while the rest could get a break before the serious business begins.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 09, 2014, 04:27:07 PM
An Inter county season finishing in June or 1st week in July  as suggested by AZ and ZULU WON'T be happenin lads.
NFL every 2nd week from 1st weekend in Feb with Club Leagues on the in between weekend.
No NFL Semi finals so NFL 2/2,16/2,2/3,16/3,30/3,13/4,27/4 and play offs/Finals May weekend. A player can only be one 1IC Panel at any given time so U21 Championship to be played NFL weekends.
Provincials as they are but dates as follows
Prelims 11/5
Qtrs 25/5
Semis 15/6
Finals 5&6 July
Qualifiers to be rebranded as simply All Ireland Championship
Round 1 14/6
Round 2 5/7
Round 3 12/7
Round 4  19/7
AI QFs 26/27 July
AI SFs 16/17 Aug - both same weekend
AIF 8/9.
Club players can be told to take their Summer holidays early/mid July by which time they should all be at Qtr Final stages so some lads would only have Leagues left anyway while the rest could get a break before the serious business begins.

I could live with that Ross, except the Qualifiers do my nut in. But I think it does make sense to have all the Provincials running in parallel. The long delays between games in Connacht especially is nuts.

QuoteI also think only the middle division would be really competitive as a lot of teams could end up with no relegation or promotion goals with 3 or 4 rounds left in div 1 & 3.

I am wary of this too, maybe a similar format to what i have suggested may be workable as well with the current 4 divisions?
I am a fan of the provincial championships to be honest and would like them retained as a stand alone competition.

I like the idea of having a big 'last 16' competion that can be promoted as the flagship of our games and for the smaller counties, getting to that big stage alone would be a goal.
It would leave 15 BIG games  that could be televised and promoted (similar to the sweet 16 college basketball in the states), an i would imagine would gain big attendances.

As for the monirs and U21s , is there any reason why they cant follow the same format?

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 09, 2014, 04:30:50 PM

QuoteI also think only the middle division would be really competitive as a lot of teams could end up with no relegation or promotion goals with 3 or 4 rounds left in div 1 & 3.

I am wary of this too, maybe a similar format to what i have suggested may be workable as well with the current 4 divisions?
I am a fan of the provincial championships to be honest and would like them retained as a stand alone competition.

I like the idea of having a big 'last 16' competion that can be promoted as the flagship of our games and for the smaller counties, getting to that big stage alone would be a goal.
It would leave 15 BIG games  that could be televised and promoted (similar to the sweet 16 college basketball in the states), an i would imagine would gain big attendances.

As for the monirs and U21s , is there any reason why they cant follow the same format?

The Sweet 16 in the states is just the 3rd round of the NCAA tournament which starts out as 64 teams, and the sweet 16 regularly features #12 seeds and lower from each of the regions (effectively the 48th ranked teams and up).

In fact the NCAA tournament is very close to what the GAA are talking about with the equal 'provinces' except they call them regions, and they are not really geographically based on the teams, but on the venues. So you'll have 4 'Regions' of 16 teams each.

Been saying for years to buck the current provincial system. Hard luck Fermanagh but we cannot wait around forever.

8x4 makes sense. We don't really need Donegal anyway. It never felt Ulsterish.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 04:28:44 PM
the Qualifiers do my nut in.

You have to have an All Ireland aspect to the thing to avoid the strait jacket of a Provincial route only system especially given the difference in size and strengths of the Provinces.
Maybe confine them to Div 1 and 2 NFL Teams?? or 
Bottom 6 from NFL play for the Tommy Murphy cup and winners get into Round 1
Next lowest 6 play for the "Dermot Earley Cup"( who else ?) with the finalists getting into Round 1 and the Winners in round 2.

So
AI C Round 1 consists of 12 teams who don't make the Provincial finals plus the TMC winner and DEC runner up.
Round 2 - 7 winners of round 1 and DEC winner
Round 3 - 4 winners Round 2 v 4 Provincial losers
Qtrs etc .

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 04:24:46 PM
Just a couple of things...

QuoteThat's fine but I think that would kill the GAA in an era of ever increasing exposure for other codes. If we did that then lots of counties would be gone after one championship game and the footballers of Waterford, Clare and Tipp would know they'd have to face Cork and Kerry every year. My suggestion gives them a pathway to success that potentially by passes their traditional nemeses. Your plan also doesn't deal with minor and U21 F & H which is a big problem for clubs too.

Not sure I get this. Unless I'm mistaken, your proposal means 16 counties will be gone after one championship game, and the season finishes even earlier than in what I said? And if the pathway to success means winning something, then they have an even tougher journey in a seeded open draw championship I'd say.

Quote
There's no easy solution here but I think anyone who says the solution has to include something is already tying our hands behind our backs. No matter what you do there'll be pros and cons, for me the key is whether the solution delivers more pros than cons to the majority of players, coaches and fans. I think my proposal does that whereas ones which are built around the provinces don't. But sure I'm not going to convince you at this stage so I'll just have to become president and get you and your ilk suspended from the association, that's the way it works, right?[

Yes, but the overseas vote will be fiercely resisted. I'll do a deal with you, when Offaly win Leinster, and Tipp win Munster, we'll dissolve the provincial championships and you can do what you like...

On point 1, the championship includes the league so they're gone after a minimum of 8 games.

Overseas??? That was all a cunning ruse on my part, I'm a Cork man who you might know simply as Frank. When I decide to take power there'll be nothing anyone can do [sinister laugh].

Quote from: Zulu on April 09, 2014, 04:56:28 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 04:24:46 PM
Just a couple of things...

QuoteThat's fine but I think that would kill the GAA in an era of ever increasing exposure for other codes. If we did that then lots of counties would be gone after one championship game and the footballers of Waterford, Clare and Tipp would know they'd have to face Cork and Kerry every year. My suggestion gives them a pathway to success that potentially by passes their traditional nemeses. Your plan also doesn't deal with minor and U21 F & H which is a big problem for clubs too.

Not sure I get this. Unless I'm mistaken, your proposal means 16 counties will be gone after one championship game, and the season finishes even earlier than in what I said? And if the pathway to success means winning something, then they have an even tougher journey in a seeded open draw championship I'd say.

Quote
There's no easy solution here but I think anyone who says the solution has to include something is already tying our hands behind our backs. No matter what you do there'll be pros and cons, for me the key is whether the solution delivers more pros than cons to the majority of players, coaches and fans. I think my proposal does that whereas ones which are built around the provinces don't. But sure I'm not going to convince you at this stage so I'll just have to become president and get you and your ilk suspended from the association, that's the way it works, right?[

Yes, but the overseas vote will be fiercely resisted. I'll do a deal with you, when Offaly win Leinster, and Tipp win Munster, we'll dissolve the provincial championships and you can do what you like...

On point 1, the championship includes the league so they're gone after a minimum of 8 games.

Overseas??? That was all a cunning ruse on my part, I'm a Cork man who you might know simply as Frank. When I decide to take power there'll be nothing anyone can do [sinister laugh].

OK, I see what you mean.

1.  Eliminate O'Byrne, McKenna and all meaningless competitions.
2.  Eliminate the Leagues.
3.  Leave Provinces intact and give them April to May to run their competitions as stand alones in whatever format they want.
4.  Run the All Ireland series in conference format along the lines of NFL and  retaining q/f, s/f, final format from Jun to Sep
5.  Drop compromise rules and leave Oct to March completely free to clubs
6.  6 months Club games, 6 months intercounty. Every gaa player in the country knows where they stand.

The conference idea proposed over a decade ago by a committee including Colm O'Rourke, Martin Carney etc was the most sensible approach I thought.

2 conferences of 10 teams making up the top 20 teams.
The rest play in a 2nd division conference for promotion/relegation to/from the top two conferences.

Ulster/Connacht conference made up of top 10 teams.
All play all league over 10/11 weeks.
Top two Ulster teams play Ulster Final.
Top two Connacht tams play Connacht Final.

Leinster/Munster conference does the same.

2 semi-finals
AIF.

12 rounds.

Could be played off over 16 weeks leaving a larger season for the clubs.

Not perfect but it guarantees loads of meaningful games. And it can be run over a shorter, better planned season. It protects local rivalries and the Provincial Finals. Every team would have at least 4 home Championship games and at least 9 in total.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 09, 2014, 04:40:04 PM

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on April 09, 2014, 04:30:50 PM

QuoteI also think only the middle division would be really competitive as a lot of teams could end up with no relegation or promotion goals with 3 or 4 rounds left in div 1 & 3.

I am wary of this too, maybe a similar format to what i have suggested may be workable as well with the current 4 divisions?
I am a fan of the provincial championships to be honest and would like them retained as a stand alone competition.

I like the idea of having a big 'last 16' competion that can be promoted as the flagship of our games and for the smaller counties, getting to that big stage alone would be a goal.
It would leave 15 BIG games  that could be televised and promoted (similar to the sweet 16 college basketball in the states), an i would imagine would gain big attendances.

As for the monirs and U21s , is there any reason why they cant follow the same format?

The Sweet 16 in the states is just the 3rd round of the NCAA tournament which starts out as 64 teams, and the sweet 16 regularly features #12 seeds and lower from each of the regions (effectively the 48th ranked teams and up).

In fact the NCAA tournament is very close to what the GAA are talking about with the equal 'provinces' except they call them regions, and they are not really geographically based on the teams, but on the venues. So you'll have 4 'Regions' of 16 teams each.

Maybe my understanding of the sweet 16 in the states is incorrect then.

What i really am talking about is a last 16 knockout competition to win the all ireland. thats 15 big championship games in total, whcih can all be televised live. (using super sundays or sat eve/sunday as appropriate.

Quote from: ONeill on April 09, 2014, 04:44:15 PM
Been saying for years to buck the current provincial system. Hard luck Fermanagh but we cannot wait around forever.

8x4 makes sense. We don't really need Donegal anyway. It never felt Ulsterish.

Only cause you were feeling the wrong part.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 09, 2014, 04:27:07 PM
An Inter county season finishing in June or 1st week in July  as suggested by AZ and ZULU WON'T be happenin lads.
NFL every 2nd week from 1st weekend in Feb with Club Leagues on the in between weekend.
No NFL Semi finals so NFL 2/2,16/2,2/3,16/3,30/3,13/4,27/4 and play offs/Finals May weekend. A player can only be one 1IC Panel at any given time so U21 Championship to be played NFL weekends.
Provincials as they are but dates as follows
Prelims 11/5
Qtrs 25/5
Semis 15/6
Finals 5&6 July
Qualifiers to be rebranded as simply All Ireland Championship
Round 1 14/6
Round 2 5/7
Round 3 12/7
Round 4  19/7
AI QFs 26/27 July
AI SFs 16/17 Aug - both same weekend
AIF 8/9.
Club players can be told to take their Summer holidays early/mid July by which time they should all be at Qtr Final stages so some lads would only have Leagues left anyway while the rest could get a break before the serious business begins.

Loss in TV revenue makes something like this a no-go I'd say

I'd worry that the inevitability of paying the players will be a major consideration for Vatican 2. This may be 20 years down the line, but it is becoming more and more likely and I think the GAA know this.

While we are thinking a lot about the average club player, provincial championships etc, Vatican 2 will be equally concerned with what will best serve the TV people and the revenue generators with the aim of having enough cash to pay the players.

This would mean guaranteeing counties numerous regular fixtures that will get big gates and big tv viewership.

Any new plan needs the Provincial Championships as they fund the Provincial Councils.
Doing away with them will also mean changing how the game is governed.
Along with tradition etc, it is a non runner. Any proposals without the Provincial Championships are best ignored, unless they show how the funding and governing changes are to work.

Also a good point made about having at least one (or three) championship game on tv each weekend. This may mean football one week and hurling the next week or two provinces playing one week and the others playing the following week.

There is still great potential for good change which would help the club scene.

Quote from: DJGaliv on April 10, 2014, 11:41:57 AM
I'd worry that the inevitability of paying the players will be a major consideration for Vatican 2. This may be 20 years down the line, but it is becoming more and more likely and I think the GAA know this.

While we are thinking a lot about the average club player, provincial championships etc, Vatican 2 will be equally concerned with what will best serve the TV people and the revenue generators with the aim of having enough cash to pay the players.

This would mean guaranteeing counties numerous regular fixtures that will get big gates and big tv viewership.

Professionalism would change the landscape entirely. At that point club v county becomes as immaterial as it is for club v province in the rugby. You could do what you wanted to then in terms of coming up with a 'product' that would see tickets and TV rights. That's what professionalism would be all about. Professionalism is not just about paying players, it becomes about the entire commercial viability of the product.

QuoteThis would mean guaranteeing counties numerous regular fixtures that will get big gates and big tv viewership.

I really don't see professional GAA as a realistic option but amateur or professional the above should always be one of our main goals.

QuoteAny new plan needs the Provincial Championships as they fund the Provincial Councils.

Disagree, while the provincial championships do help fund the provinces they also get money from central funds. If there was one centrally run competition why wouldn't each county get a share of the profits like they do know?

Can't you simply have provincial councils and county boards but with a central banker in CP who distributes to counties and provinces who require it?

Whatever about tradition and giving weaker counties a realistic ambition of success I don't see any grounds for objection on the business side of it.

Quote from: Zulu on April 10, 2014, 12:29:31 PM

QuoteThis would mean guaranteeing counties numerous regular fixtures that will get big gates and big tv viewership.

I really don't see professional GAA as a realistic option but amateur or professional the above should always be one of our main goals.

I would agree that we won't be solely professional, but there will certainly be an element of semi-professionalism whereby players can be confident in having a basic wage of a few grand a year.

The big problem with semi-professionalism coming in would be how to structure the games to allow for it. They need to lay the groundworks first.

You can't have one lad working from January to June, and another lad working from January until September and they both get paid the same. How this is restructured will be interesting.

In semi-professional soccer in the UK with limited TV money and moderate attendences lads are all roughly on 40 week contracts - i.e. not paid for the off season.

I would envisage we will head to a more serious league structure within the championship that guarantees games, rather than one team finishing their season in June. If for example Dublin were to lose in the backdoor to Tyrone this year that's a huge cash cow slaughtered in July.

Does anyone think that Sky Sports will be offering some unofficial friendly advice on how best to restructure and sell our game? Or is that as ridiculous as Boylan's vitamins?

So it's all down to Sky???
After 126 years of Gaelic Games it's all going to change because Sky are going to show 20 games?
God but ye all have so little faith in the Good Ship GAA - or is it more of the "end of the GAA as we know it" mentality whereby every change in a vibrant living body is going to ruin everything we hold dear.

As for the FRC2 - a few good ideas in their full report but it's like they were only given a few weeks to throw something together e.g they say Minor should be reduced to 17 but don't mention U21 at all which would in all reality have to become U20 in that case.
They are totally stuck on the 4 eights "Province" thingy and the piece at the start of this thread sticks with that saying there may be other ways to achieve this.
It's hard to do a "whilte paper" discussion document on anything if you've only one outcome in mind before you put pen to paper.

Quote
Does anyone think that Sky Sports will be offering some unofficial friendly advice on how best to restructure and sell our game? Or is that as ridiculous as Boylan's vitamins?

I've absolutely no doubt that Sky, if the market exists, will generate umpteen ideas that might help improve product awareness and scope.

But there's this wonderful thing we have called Congress. Sky can't do a damn thing about what Congress decides.

As a result, should any of Sky's ideas come to fruition, it will be on our heads, not theirs.

I've been in favour of this for a long time. It will be a boost to the provincial championships. More competitiveness as well as potentially giving teams a better chance of winning silverware.

My restructuring would be like this:

LEINSTER:
Meath
Dublin
Louth
Kildare
Westmeath
Wicklow
Carlow
London

CONNAGHT:
Mayo
Roscommon
Galway
Leitrim
Sligo
Donegal
Longford
Offaly

MUNSTER:
Kerry
Cork
Clare
Limerick
Tipperary
Waterford
Wexford
Laois

ULSTER:
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
Tyrone
Down
Antrim
Derry
Fermanagh

Quote from: thejuice on April 11, 2014, 12:59:31 PM
I've been in favour of this for a long time. It will be a boost to the provincial championships. More competitiveness as well as potentially giving teams a better chance of winning silverware.

My restructuring would be like this:

LEINSTER:
Meath
Dublin
Louth
Kildare
Westmeath
Wicklow
Carlow
London

CONNAGHT:
Mayo
Roscommon
Galway
Leitrim
Sligo
Donegal
Longford
Offaly
MUNSTER:
Kerry
Cork
Clare
Limerick
Tipperary
Waterford
Wexford
Laois
ULSTER:
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
Tyrone
Down
Antrim
Derry
Fermanagh

Fixed a few geographical errors for you there.

If we are going to randomly force counties into other provinces we may as well just pull 4 random groups of 8 out of a hat and call the groups Ulster, Munster, Connaght and Leinster. Maybe we could end up with no northern teams in the Ulster Championship?

Hardly random though is it?

Quote from: thejuice on April 11, 2014, 04:05:50 PM
Hardly random though is it?

Taking your groups as an example...... So how did you choose between Donegal, Cavan or Fermanagh joining Connaght? How do you decide that Offaly goes to Connaght and not Munster? Why does Wexford go to Munster? My point was tongue in cheek but if we are going to go to a 4 group system we should just have the balls to restructure the whole thing and not try to artificially shift counties into another province just for the sake of it.

Who's going to make Wexford go into "Munster" or Longford/Donegal or whoever into "Connaght(sic)" ?
The whole thing is just too daft for words.

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2014, 04:17:17 PM
Who's going to make Wexford go into "Munster" or Longford/Donegal or whoever into "Connaght(sic)" ?
The whole thing is just too daft for words.

I was replying to Juice's comment. My point is that it's daft

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2014, 03:16:19 PM

Quote from: thejuice on April 11, 2014, 12:59:31 PM
I've been in favour of this for a long time. It will be a boost to the provincial championships. More competitiveness as well as potentially giving teams a better chance of winning silverware.

My restructuring would be like this:

LEINSTER:
Meath
Dublin
Louth
Kildare
Westmeath
Wicklow
Carlow
London

CONNAGHT:
Mayo
Roscommon
Galway
Leitrim
Sligo
Donegal
Longford
Offaly
MUNSTER:
Kerry
Cork
Clare
Limerick
Tipperary
Waterford
Wexford
Laois
ULSTER:
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
Tyrone
Down
Antrim
Derry
Fermanagh

Fixed a few geographical errors for you there.

As well as lumping Donegal into the mid-Atlantic... I thought you wanted that done for us! ;D

Quote from: BennyHarp on April 11, 2014, 04:20:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2014, 04:17:17 PM
Who's going to make Wexford go into "Munster" or Longford/Donegal or whoever into "Connaght(sic)" ?
The whole thing is just too daft for words.

I was replying to Juice's comment. My point is that it's daft

surely just different not Daft .
If you want to back to the orignal Provinces would the Meaths have a province to themselves and was Dalriada A kingdom or a province should they be included too.
Or do we imagine that things now are how God ordained them to be 
the type of think that has left our orange brethern wearing bowler hats and sashes. From the 1900's

Quote from: rosnarun on April 11, 2014, 04:33:25 PM

Quote from: BennyHarp on April 11, 2014, 04:20:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2014, 04:17:17 PM
Who's going to make Wexford go into "Munster" or Longford/Donegal or whoever into "Connaght(sic)" ?
The whole thing is just too daft for words.

I was replying to Juice's comment. My point is that it's daft

surely just different not Daft .
If you want to back to the orignal Provinces would the Meaths have a province to themselves and was Dalriada A kingdom or a province should they be included too.
Or do we imagine that things now are how God ordained them to be 
the type of think that has left our orange brethern wearing bowler hats and sashes. From the 1900's

I didn't say I wanted the original provinces - I said restructure the whole thing. The daft bit is trying to shoe horn one county instead of another into different provincial championship.

How about 2 groups Northwest & Southeast
Northwest (Connaght & Ulster)
Mayo
Roscommon
Galway
Leitrim
Sligo
London
Armagh
Cavan
Monaghan
Tyrone
Down
Antrim
Derry
Fermanagh
Donegal
New York

Southeast (Leinster & Munster)
Longford
Offaly
Meath
Dublin
Louth
Kildare
Westmeath
Wicklow
Carlow
Wexford
Laois
Kerry
Cork
Clare
Limerick
Tipperary
Waterford

Quote from: Stall the Bailer on April 11, 2014, 04:49:58 PM
How about 2 groups of 16?

What would you call the groups? Leinster and Ulster?

Quote from: BennyHarp on April 11, 2014, 04:56:38 PM

Quote from: Stall the Bailer on April 11, 2014, 04:49:58 PM
How about 2 groups of 16?

What would you call the groups? Leinster and Ulster?

I updated it. Northwest 16, Southeast 17

Knockout competition where losers enter the All Ireland back door.
2 group winners enter at All Ireland Semi Final stage.

Quote from: BennyHarp on April 11, 2014, 04:20:51 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on April 11, 2014, 04:17:17 PM
Who's going to make Wexford go into "Munster" or Longford/Donegal or whoever into "Connaght(sic)" ?
The whole thing is just too daft for words.

I was replying to Juice's comment. My point is that it's daft

And I was agreeing with you  ;)

f**k sake.

Thought the rubicon(or the Shannon) had been crossed with Galway playing in and winning the Leinster hurling championship.

In that case I call upon the divine right as given by the ancient gods to son of the royal kings of Tara that the changes I propose are binding and forever shall remain.

Done.

It's Connacht (or Anglicised version if you may Connaught, but nowhere in history, and yes I studied the goddamn thing until the LC have I seen it Connaght)

Quote from: thejuice on April 11, 2014, 05:38:30 PM
f**k sake.

Thought the rubicon(or the Shannon) had been crossed with Galway playing in and winning the Leinster hurling championship.

In that case I call upon the divine right as given by the ancient gods to son of the royal kings of Tara that the changes I propose are binding and forever shall remain.

Done.

So its random then?

Not at all. The boundaries of the provinces were probably drawn up in a similar fashion by some regal person and through war. I was just continuing on that basis since that is the only one you seem to recognise.

With you it seems, it's either that or tear the whole thing up.

Let's stick with the unfair system because anyway way you could make it fair would be unfair.

How about we just give Dublin the AI and forget about all this playing football crap?

Quote from: thejuice on April 11, 2014, 06:01:45 PM
Not at all. The boundaries of the provinces were probably drawn up in a similar fashion by some regal person and through war. I was just continuing on that basis since that is the only one you seem to recognise.

With you it seems, it's either that or tear the whole thing up.

I'm not bothered about where the provincial lines are drawn up. It's a football competition, I'm just not sure why we would draft random teams into another championship to try and maintain some semblance of a provincial championship that isn't working. All I'm saying is, that if we are going to make that jump we should pick 4 groups of eight regardless of geography, perhaps based on seedings from the league. The provincial councils would be maintained to govern the club matches played within the current provincial system.

4 random groups of 8 loses a lot of the local rivalry that defines the provincial championships. Geography also greatly increases the crowd at games.

Quote from: armaghniac on April 11, 2014, 11:31:51 PM
4 random groups of 8 loses a lot of the local rivalry that defines the provincial championships. Geography also greatly increases the crowd at games.

Great, so we'll just pluck one of these local teams and draft them into another province?

Quote from: Farrandeelin on April 11, 2014, 05:42:07 PM
It's Connacht (or Anglicised version if you may Connaught, but nowhere in history, and yes I studied the goddamn thing until the LC have I seen it Connaght)

Quote from: John Dymmok in "A Treatise of Ireland" link=topic=http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/E590000-001/text001.html date=about 1600

Connaght

This Province hath been otherwise devided then now it is, by reason the O'Reilies cuntrye (now county of Cavan) and O'Faralls cuntry (now the county of Longford) were held parcell of yt and Thomond or the county of Clare was accounted of Munster. The word Thomond signifieth north Munster, and was in the commission of the presidents of Munster in Sr. Warham Sentligers, Sr. John Perotts, and Sr. Will. Druries tyme. But Sr. Hen. Sidney consideringe the notable bownde yt hath from the rest of Munster, did establish yt under the goverment of Connaght, as yt is at this present. The Province conteineth all the lands circuited with the great ocean, betweene the ryver of Erne nere Asserow40 in O'Donells cuntry, and the ryver of Shenin where yt falleth into the sea, beneath Lymryke. It is in manner an Iland, bycause to the north and the west, yt hath the sea, to the south and easte the Shenin, and to the northeast the loughe and ryver of Erne, onely one small slipp of grounde betweene the Shenin and the Erne leaveth that parte vninclosed. It is devided at this present into sixe countyes. Clare, Sligo, Mayo, Gallwaye, Roscommon and Letrim.

So should the FRC give Clare back to Connacht or Connaght?  Definitely returning the O'Reilies cuntrye and O'Faralls cuntry should fit in pretty well with their plan.  Perhaps it's time to finally restore all its lost lands.

Just saw this now and any suggestion to move Laois into Munster will be resisted with the same ferocity if you tried to take a pram from a Moore Street trader. Our current hurling is the best thing to come out of Laois since Har Ramsbottom & The Escorts Showband got their first gig in Barry's hotel. Cannon fodder for Cork and Tipp ? Not gonna happen. What they should do is move just one county from Leinster into Ulster - Dublin. Cork should be barred altogether for throwing yesterday's game.

I think this is only for football Bud. Hurling is grand. Although I like Brian Carroll's suggestion on Saturday, 'Everyone should be allowed in Division 1'.

Quote from: AZOffaly on April 08, 2014, 01:14:08 PM
Lets see how this might work. Geographical constrainsts would surely come into it, but essentially we have 9 teams in Ulster, 6 in Connacht, 6 in Munster and 11 in Leinster.

So, we need to reduce Ulster by one, and move them into Connacht. Donegal might be an option, as they touch Sligo, but probably Cavan makes more sense as it's closer to more of the Connacht counties.

That makes Ulster 8, Connacht 7, Munster 6 and Leinster 11.

So the next three have to come out of Leinster. Again, based on geography, you could argue for Offaly or Longford to be in Connacht, with the borders with Roscommon and Galway in Offaly's case. Lets say Longford.

That makes Ulster 8, Connacht 8, Munster 6 and Leinster 10.

So now two more from Leinster into Munster. Offaly touches Tipperary, but would be stretching the province a good bit north. Laois would also be touching Tipp, and a bit lower down. Kilkenny are irrelevant for this hypothesis, so Wexford or Carlow probably the only others that would make sense. I'd imagine Offaly and Laois into Munster would be the most efficient.

So,

Ulster : Donegal, Monaghan, Antrim, Armagh, Down, Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone.
Connacht : Cavan, Longford, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim and London.
Leinster: Louth, Meath, Dublin, Westmeath, Kildare, Carlow, Wicklow and Wexford.
Munster: Offaly, Laois, Tipperary, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kerry and Cork,

Just a wee nitpick which doesn't detract from your points... We border Leitrim, not Sligo. We've to cross 3 miles or so of Leitrim territory outside Bundoran at the narrowest point before crossing into Sligo.  :)

Central Council supposed to be voting on these today.

Depends on what they pass I suppose.
If they reject all the proposals ..... then it's goodnight FRC.