What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.
People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.
Quote from: Syferus on March 11, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.
People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.
So you're only in favour of enforcing rules that help create scores?
Do you actually think before you type?
Quote from: Syferus on March 11, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.
People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.
This is the kind of shite that we're up against.
Serious big scores been racked up. Black card is likely a factor also probably due to the players, managers and refs testing the water and learning what you can do, get away with, etc.
It will be like everything else, tactics will evolve and one manager will put in place a system that will limit scores and the rest will follow.
In addition to the black cards, I think the fitness levels of players are really starting to impact games now. This has been building now over a years and the GAA player has changed into a very mobile type of player with a great balance of strength, power and agility. Its very hard to mark someone who doesn't stand still. The ball is moving quicker now and players are attacking on the move. A few years back, we had gone too far on weights but they have scaled that back.
While players have become more potent attacking wise as a result of this, maybe the defending skills haven't matched this. The black card rewards pace and power and came at a time when its never been as high.
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:45:35 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 11, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.
People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.
So you're only in favour of enforcing rules that help create scores?
Do you actually think before you type?
Every major team sport is moving towards making it easier to score. If you want to try to be a purist go ahead but before the black card gaelic football was one of the most extreame examples of blatant cynical play in sports. Protecting attackers better and forcing defenders to defend within the rules is the correct course of action.
I really think that the high scores are exposing that defenders can't defend anymore. They've been conditioned to swarming, the cheap foul, get organised, etc etc. The black card will make them learn again the basics of defending. Anticipation, controlled aggression, timing, tackling the ball.
However, I absolutely agree that forwards are getting away with murder in terms of ball carrying. The excuse for this was that refs were using their cop on and allowing extra steps for a lad being fouled, letting him escape the foul. That's grand in principle, but now 4 steps seems to be 6 at a minimum. So a corner back that is not fouling is now faced with an even more difficult challenge to tackle the ball, or dispossess the man if he's running like Brian O'Driscoll with the ball.
I do think these are the right calls rules wise though. Our refs were not giving yellows for the cynical stuff, and repeat yellows and reds. So the culture of the cheap, innocuous looking, foul crept in, and defenders got lazy and more cynical. (I call anyone without the ball a defender in this instance. A number 15 pulling down a defender to stop a quick break was just as common and just as lazy and cynical). If refs had been doling out yellow and red cards, as per the rules, there'd be no need for the black card I think. But the culture was so engrained on behalf of the players AND the refs at this stage that you needed the black card.
It will take a while, but defenders will adapt, and go back to the way it used to be. Hard hits and challenges, dispossess the man, blocking kicks, anticipating and tackling. Not pulling, dragging and arse boxing.
Quote from: Hardy on March 11, 2014, 10:52:03 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 11, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.
People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.
This is the kind of shite that we're up against.
Yeah and we're not going to win.
Quote from: Syferus on March 11, 2014, 11:10:48 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:45:35 AM
Quote from: Syferus on March 11, 2014, 10:40:10 AM
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on March 11, 2014, 10:13:34 AM
What do we reckon, the blanket defence inc 1, maybe 2 sweepers is a thing of the past?
Reading some comments from various posters from a few different counties, some are thinking that come championship time, we'll pack the defence and be grand. Cant see it myself for several reasons:
* If this was the case, surely now is the time (half way through the league programme) to fine tune tactics for the championship?? Whats the use of playing open 15 v 15 football now and then rolling out the untested championship game plan come May / June?
* Packing the defence will lead to more players picking up black cards. Less space, more collisions etc. Managers are wise to this. Open football with teams conceding big scores isnt being facilitated by counties for the love of the game. Its all about scoring more than the opposition and defending with as much discipline as possible, turning the ball over as clean as possible and forcing unforced errors without picking up any cards (ie skilful tackling as opposed to 4/5/6 men swarming a player with sheer muscle and pressure causing the turnover)
* Rolling out the old guard to shore up the defence come championship time. Cant see it. Its the year of the forward and to counter act this, teams need lightning fast mobile defenders to keep tabs on them. Older, slower defenders will be hung to dry in the wide open spaces on firm summer pitches
As one of the commentators on Cork 103 said on Sunday, "the black card is putting manners in these defenders boi"
Really looking forward to this one
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
The 4 steps rule would be fairly ridiculous if it was actually ever strictly enforced.
People want scores and scores make for better matches. The black card as a threat has parted the waves to a very real extent at the back.
So you're only in favour of enforcing rules that help create scores?
Do you actually think before you type?
Every major team sport is moving towards making it easier to score. If you want to try to be a purist go ahead but before the black card gaelic football was one of the most extreame examples of blatant cynical play in sports. Protecting attackers better and forcing defenders to defend within the rules is the correct course of action.
So force defenders to defend within the rules but let attackers break the rules. OK. That makes sense.... ::)
And everyone else is doing it so it must be right...
It's no wonder this country ended up in the shit and the people who casued it continuosly get voted back in.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 11, 2014, 11:12:02 AM
I really think that the high scores are exposing that defenders can't defend anymore. They've been conditioned to swarming, the cheap foul, get organised, etc etc. The black card will make them learn again the basics of defending. Anticipation, controlled aggression, timing, tackling the ball.
However, I absolutely agree that forwards are getting away with murder in terms of ball carrying. The excuse for this was that refs were using their cop on and allowing extra steps for a lad being fouled, letting him escape the foul. That's grand in principle, but now 4 steps seems to be 6 at a minimum. So a corner back that is not fouling is now faced with an even more difficult challenge to tackle the ball, or dispossess the man if he's running like Brian O'Driscoll with the ball.
I do think these are the right calls rules wise though. Our refs were not giving yellows for the cynical stuff, and repeat yellows and reds. So the culture of the cheap, innocuous looking, foul crept in, and defenders got lazy and more cynical. (I call anyone without the ball a defender in this instance. A number 15 pulling down a defender to stop a quick break was just as common and just as lazy and cynical). If refs had been doling out yellow and red cards, as per the rules, there'd be no need for the black card I think. But the culture was so engrained on behalf of the players AND the refs at this stage that you needed the black card.
It will take a while, but defenders will adapt, and go back to the way it used to be. Hard hits and challenges, dispossess the man, blocking kicks, anticipating and tackling. Not pulling, dragging and arse boxing.
Excellent post AZ.
I think the new definite advantage rule is giving more scores too as refs aren't stopping the game the second they see the "little" fouls.
However unlike sh1teferus I don't see what's so great about a silly game with scores of 3-14 to 1-19 and no one defending.
Best way to deal with that eejit is to use the ignore function and you won't see his assinine ramblings.
As for Roscommon we've just stopped defending or tracking back to mark our men or any of that sort of thing.
We got one black card Sunday which wasn't really one and then when Niall Carty did a "Kavanagh" he only got a yellow.
Refs..... ::)
JUST IMPLEMENT THE 4 STEPS RULE AS WRITTEN and defenders will get a chance to practice the legimite tackle and bring a semblance of reality back into scorelines.
From speaking to a few refs they have been told to have a soft approach to implementation of the rules. Managers and players though are still conscious of it and they have adapted their styles accordingly. As the refs get a bit harder and there are more black cards then the tactics will adapt again. What I have noticed in games I have been involved in already this season is, as has been mentioned above, that the level of fitness even at club level is through the roof already. The players are individualy very well conditioned but as a unit they all seem to be very fit. This has meant that the speed of the play has increased and more goals are being scored, particularly due to half backs/midfielders breaking forward. Scores are coming from every angle and it isn't unusual to see a corner back popping up with a few points a game.
As the stakes get higher through the season there will be an element of negativity developing in the game but I think that the managers are realising that it is better to outscore than anything else.
watching Dublin V Kildare on Saturday, the entire steps issue did come into my head, especially Jack Mccaffrey, it appeared that he was taking a lot more steps than five, more like eight or ten, Paul Earley in the commentary box was so enamored by his speed that he was oblivious to the steps issue. Mccaffrey was not the only one, but he was pretty obvious.
Going forward, under the current rules, it will be difficult to train/recruit kids to become backs.
Quote from: Bingo on March 11, 2014, 10:59:06 AM
Serious big scores been racked up. Black card is likely a factor also probably due to the players, managers and refs testing the water and learning what you can do, get away with, etc.
It will be like everything else, tactics will evolve and one manager will put in place a system that will limit scores and the rest will follow.
In addition to the black cards, I think the fitness levels of players are really starting to impact games now. This has been building now over a years and the GAA player has changed into a very mobile type of player with a great balance of strength, power and agility. Its very hard to mark someone who doesn't stand still. The ball is moving quicker now and players are attacking on the move. A few years back, we had gone too far on weights but they have scaled that back.
While players have become more potent attacking wise as a result of this, maybe the defending skills haven't matched this. The black card rewards pace and power and came at a time when its never been as high.
Bingo you're making some serious claims here about evolutions of skills and fitness. Do you have any evidence that any of these things have measurably changed?
Quote from: Keyser soze on March 11, 2014, 12:18:41 PM
Quote from: Bingo on March 11, 2014, 10:59:06 AM
Serious big scores been racked up. Black card is likely a factor also probably due to the players, managers and refs testing the water and learning what you can do, get away with, etc.
It will be like everything else, tactics will evolve and one manager will put in place a system that will limit scores and the rest will follow.
In addition to the black cards, I think the fitness levels of players are really starting to impact games now. This has been building now over a years and the GAA player has changed into a very mobile type of player with a great balance of strength, power and agility. Its very hard to mark someone who doesn't stand still. The ball is moving quicker now and players are attacking on the move. A few years back, we had gone too far on weights but they have scaled that back.
While players have become more potent attacking wise as a result of this, maybe the defending skills haven't matched this. The black card rewards pace and power and came at a time when its never been as high.
Bingo you're making some serious claims here about evolutions of skills and fitness. Do you have any evidence that any of these things have measurably changed?
Firstly, I never mentioned skills.
Fitness wise - sometimes you don't need facts/stats/reports, you can watch games over time and its obvious that the pace and intensity of games have moved on.
In the past the lines thrown out about the league was "we're working on our fitness" or "fitness levels aren't what they were". This isn't the case anymore, players are in very good physical condition.
This comes from two things - the approach is more scientific (like it or love it) and secondly - there really isn't an off season now, players are training 12 months of the year - collectively or individually; county, club and college. We don't have a period when players are doing nothing for 3/4 months but drinking and eating.
Except club players - thats what the summer is for.
Quote from: joemamas on March 11, 2014, 12:08:48 PM
watching Dublin V Kildare on Saturday, the entire steps issue did come into my head, especially Jack Mccaffrey, it appeared that he was taking a lot more steps than five, more like eight or ten, Paul Earley in the commentary box was so enamored by his speed that he was oblivious to the steps issue. Mccaffrey was not the only one, but he was pretty obvious.
Going forward, under the current rules, it will be difficult to train/recruit kids to become backs.
Nah, sure the fatter lads who can't kick the ball properly will be forced to become defenders.
That's how it works.
Quote from: Jinxy on March 11, 2014, 01:01:17 PM
Quote from: joemamas on March 11, 2014, 12:08:48 PM
watching Dublin V Kildare on Saturday, the entire steps issue did come into my head, especially Jack Mccaffrey, it appeared that he was taking a lot more steps than five, more like eight or ten, Paul Earley in the commentary box was so enamored by his speed that he was oblivious to the steps issue. Mccaffrey was not the only one, but he was pretty obvious.
Going forward, under the current rules, it will be difficult to train/recruit kids to become backs.
Nah, sure the fatter lads who can't kick the ball properly will be forced to become defenders.
That's how it works.
That's how it always worked.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 11, 2014, 01:02:20 PM
Quote from: Jinxy on March 11, 2014, 01:01:17 PM
Quote from: joemamas on March 11, 2014, 12:08:48 PM
watching Dublin V Kildare on Saturday, the entire steps issue did come into my head, especially Jack Mccaffrey, it appeared that he was taking a lot more steps than five, more like eight or ten, Paul Earley in the commentary box was so enamored by his speed that he was oblivious to the steps issue. Mccaffrey was not the only one, but he was pretty obvious.
Going forward, under the current rules, it will be difficult to train/recruit kids to become backs.
Nah, sure the fatter lads who can't kick the ball properly will be forced to become defenders.
That's how it works.
That's how it always worked.
How did I ever play full forward then!!!
Or Full forward. In the old days the full back and full forward could literally have swapped jersies and no one would have known.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 11, 2014, 01:05:06 PM
Or Full forward. In the old days the full back and full forward could literally have swapped jersies and no one would have known.
f**ker!
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 11, 2014, 10:36:58 AM
If you limit forwards to 4 steps as per the rules that would fairly put manners on them. Backs have an almost impossible task now.
Spot on Seanie - the lack of clarity and enforcement of the steps rule is a massive contributor to most of the fouling in our game.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 11, 2014, 11:12:02 AM
I really think that the high scores are exposing that defenders can't defend anymore. They've been conditioned to swarming, the cheap foul, get organised, etc etc. The black card will make them learn again the basics of defending. Anticipation, controlled aggression, timing, tackling the ball.
You think they could before the blanket defence etc? There was much more (unpunished) defensive fouling in gaelic football in the past, and a lot of the balls being 'let in' were 50/50. As the skills improved, it became much harder to defend. My point is, its all a progression, I disagree strongly that some defensive 'skills' were somehow lost with the advent of the blanket defence etc.
I think that before blanket defenses, or the game plans which saw a huge filtering back of players when the ball is lost, defenders had to defend a lot more man on man. That meant they had to be good at blocking, tackling and generally making life difficult for the forward. When the swarm defences came in, the defensive skills changed slightly. But I absolutely think that when the emphasis changed to defensive organisation, funnelling back, and getting 'set up' in your system, players were told to foul quickly and as cheaply as possible to allow for this recovery. Especially after a turnover of possession.
This then, in my opinion anyway, led to players neglecting the 'art' of tackling, and being more comfortable within a system where they would have loads of help and 'crowd' out attackers.
I understand what you're saying, but I dont think the promotion of one (massed defences) led to the neglect of the other (tackling). Tackling improved throughout, all round defensive skills improved throughout. I think perhaps you are looking at pre blanket tackling with rose tinted shades. The biggest difference for me is a crackdown on fouling, which if one on one with good ball coming in, is pretty mcuh necessary to stop an attacker, well, at least in the current state where they'll have as many steps as they want to get by you.
Quote from: haranguerer on March 11, 2014, 01:56:22 PM
I understand what you're saying, but I dont think the promotion of one (massed defences) led to the neglect of the other (tackling). Tackling improved throughout, all round defensive skills improved throughout. I think perhaps you are looking at pre blanket tackling with rose tinted shades. The biggest difference for me is a crackdown on fouling, which if one on one with good ball coming in, is pretty mcuh necessary to stop an attacker, well, at least in the current state where they'll have as many steps as they want to get by you.
I don't think individual tacking improved a bit. I think defensive systems and gang tackling was brought to a new level. If individual tackling had improved, people wouldn't be struggling badly. There may be an element of rose tinted glasses in my view, but I can honestly say in all my time playing I was rarely dragged down when there was no immediate danger. (With me, that could be argued to be all the time). Defenders hassled, harried, stuck their hand in, hit you a clatter, tried to block the kick etc etc. The lazy behaviour I'm talking about seems to me to be a relatively recent (5 - 10 years) introduction and I believe it was coached into teams to allow defenses get organised. The problem is that if you are doing that all the time, you forget how to do the other.
It did - it had to. Mantras like 'near hand', fwds grabbing onto a mans arm if left in too long all forced tackling to imporve, but mainly:
What happens now is that the tackling you call hassling, hitting you a clatter, etc, are all frees. In days gone by, there were rarely attempts to play the ball, the tackler just 'stuck the hand in' anywhere, and clawed away, the hope was to disrupt the forward enough that he'd lose possession or do something stupid, very little focus was on the ball. Try that in todays game, they're all frees, and rightly so. Now too, most of those frees will be scores. The defender has to let the forward go when they never had to before. And if you see blocking less now, thats nothng to do with worsening defences, its improving forwards, because 95% of blocks are the forwards fault, very few are 'made' by the defender.
People are struggling becuase the game continues to evolve. That 'tackling' is now fouling. The natural response of givng the forward as many steps as he wanted to evade said 'tackling' in the hope of balancing things up is now out of place. It will evolve too (hopefully by having a time limit instead of steps which is then strictly enforced), and equilibrium will be restored.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 11, 2014, 01:05:06 PM
Or Full forward. In the old days the full back and full forward could literally have swapped jersies and no one would have known.
That's a fair call... my one and only foray into County Football I was wearing no. 14 and then with our Full Back suffering from flu before the match I got hooked all the way back into the FB line again. Not that I was complaining I'd never played FF before or since and I was shitting myself!
That was the year Paddy Bradley decided to focus on Colleges football rather than play for our U21s!!
I agree with haranguerer here, in days gone by often the first 'skill' of defending was to get fist full of an attackers jersey and not let it go for the day. The second one, as haranguerer says was to wildly swing away at the forward in the hope of maybe hitting the ball but if not the arms or body would do. I think defending has improved immeasurably but when you can't foul as much and the quality of the ball in is much better then more scores accrue.
On a related point, why is a high scoring hurling game brilliant and 12 steps being allowed less of an issue for football fans but a high scoring football match and 6 steps in a sign that football is becoming basketball?
Great point zulu. I'm not the biggest fan of hurling, I still watch it and enjoy the bigger games but I have often thought of it being a bit basketball like. Last years hurling championship was fantastic with high scoring, competitive games which were lauded from all quarters. Now that the same is happening in the football it is being criticised. Baffling.
Quote from: Zulu on March 11, 2014, 04:11:34 PM
I agree with haranguerer here, in days gone by often the first 'skill' of defending was to get fist full of an attackers jersey and not let it go for the day. The second one, as haranguerer says was to wildly swing away at the forward in the hope of maybe hitting the ball but if not the arms or body would do. I think defending has improved immeasurably but when you can't foul as much and the quality of the ball in is much better then more scores accrue.
On a related point, why is a high scoring hurling game brilliant and 12 steps being allowed less of an issue for football fans but a high scoring football match and 6 steps in a sign that football is becoming basketball?
I agree... Tony Scullion and Kieran McKeever were 2 of the best defenders I've ever seen and neither were blessed with pace but they had great awareness, anticipation and precision to have that knack of being there at the right time.
There aren't many players you would say that about anymore as all they do now is fill space and the ball just arrives at one or other of the 3 men in front of the full back line!!
Quote from: joemamas on March 11, 2014, 12:08:48 PM
watching Dublin V Kildare on Saturday, the entire steps issue did come into my head, especially Jack Mccaffrey, it appeared that he was taking a lot more steps than five, more like eight or ten, Paul Earley in the commentary box was so enamored by his speed that he was oblivious to the steps issue. Mccaffrey was not the only one, but he was pretty obvious.
Going forward, under the current rules, it will be difficult to train/recruit kids to become backs.
Going by alot of people on here they expect defenders to be nothing more that fodder for the free scoring forward. The attacking side of the game seems to be the only one that matters
Quote from: Zulu on March 11, 2014, 04:11:34 PM
I agree with haranguerer here, in days gone by often the first 'skill' of defending was to get fist full of an attackers jersey and not let it go for the day. The second one, as haranguerer says was to wildly swing away at the forward in the hope of maybe hitting the ball but if not the arms or body would do. I think defending has improved immeasurably but when you can't foul as much and the quality of the ball in is much better then more scores accrue.
On a related point, why is a high scoring hurling game brilliant and 12 steps being allowed less of an issue for football fans but a high scoring football match and 6 steps in a sign that football is becoming basketball?
I can't get into this high scoring game equals good game shite either, good defending is a skill and should be lauded as much as good attacking play. Hurling by its nature can be high scoring due to the fact you can put a ball over the bar from 80 metres out, but great scores come from attacking play or players getting the better of good defending.
Defenders in hurling have more opportunity to rob an opponent off the ball as the only time you are in true possession of the ball is when its in your hand, put it on the end of the hurl and it can legally be knocked off or flicked away and you're restricted in having the ball only twice in your hand.
In football its not too often you see someone lose possession when hopping it and any attempt to knock the ball away whilst in the hands of an opponent isn't normally successful. Blocking the kick is the only real option for a defender.
I'd like to see the steps thing tightened up in both codes TBH.
DJ Carey. No more needs to be said.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 12, 2014, 01:54:47 PM
DJ Carey. No more needs to be said.
Tomas Mulcahy made the mould, DJ broke it..