Thoughts, comments, rants!
http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/0411132129-football-rule-changes/
Cynical Behaviour Fouls
1. Deliberately pull down an opponent.
2. Deliberately trip an opponent with the hand(s), arm, leg or foot.
3. Deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play.
There is a very fine line at times between Deliberate and Accidental - the referee's job is going to become even more difficult - this will undoubtedly lead to -
4. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
5. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official.
Can a Black Card be shown twice to a player in one incident? or will a red card be issued?
Plenty of work for the CCCC particularly as yellows and blacks can now culminate in a suspension. There's going to be plenty of controversy this season.
Quote from: CD on November 05, 2013, 01:03:00 PM
Thoughts, comments, rants!
http://www.gaa.ie/gaa-news-and-videos/daily-news/2/0411132129-football-rule-changes/
Cynical Behaviour Fouls
1. Deliberately pull down an opponent.
2. Deliberately trip an opponent with the hand(s), arm, leg or foot.
3. Deliberately body collide with an opponent after he has played the ball away or for the purpose of taking him out of a movement of play.
There is a very fine line at times between Deliberate and Accidental - the referee's job is going to become even more difficult - this will undoubtedly lead to -
4. Threaten or to use abusive or provocative language or gestures to an opponent or a teammate.
5. Remonstrate in an aggressive manner with a Match Official.
Can a Black Card be shown twice to a player in one incident? or will a red card be issued?
Plenty of work for the CCCC particularly as yellows and blacks can now culminate in a suspension. There's going to be plenty of controversy this season.
This is going to be mental to sort as a referee, we've a meeting next week on the issue surrounding the black cards. Job hard enough without all that crap.
You have my sympathies! I've even been the protagonist in tackles that I would find hard to define as either deliberate or accidental. The game is so quick and you go flying into things instinctively - every decision you guys make is going to analysed and appealed.
I am not sure that this can be carried out at the lowest form of Gaelic games. Take Division 3 reserves in Tyrone. A lot of teams are fielding 13 a side these days due to the lack of numbers. In this league a black card is basically a red card as there are no subs to bring on. Senior teams will have to hold a few men off the reserve team in case someone picks up a black early on.
I would imagine this will kill lower forms of reserve football in Tyrone.
I'd also imagine referees will so a bit of common sense at lower levels, if there are no subs I think most refs will be a bit slower to issue black cards. Lets give this a chance, a proper one, before we go slating it. As I said when it was introduced, I wouldn't have gone with a black card I would have gone with a sin bin. But there can be no doubt that some of the things going on are ruining football so something had to be done and now that this has been chosen I'm willing to give it a go.
Quote from: Under Lights on November 05, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
I am not sure that this can be carried out at the lowest form of Gaelic games. Take Division 3 reserves in Tyrone. A lot of teams are fielding 13 a side these days due to the lack of numbers. In this league a black card is basically a red card as there are no subs to bring on. Senior teams will have to hold a few men off the reserve team in case someone picks up a black early on.
I would imagine this will kill lower forms of reserve football in Tyrone.
That's an interesting point alright.
Some of those lads would rather player at the next level, rather than sit watching and this will have an effect down the road too.
Lads its coming in at all levels ffs. I'll need a sec to keep count. Trust me the first black card will be followed by another and so on, teams will need plenty subs
Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2013, 05:53:31 PM
Quote from: Under Lights on November 05, 2013, 04:39:24 PM
I am not sure that this can be carried out at the lowest form of Gaelic games. Take Division 3 reserves in Tyrone. A lot of teams are fielding 13 a side these days due to the lack of numbers. In this league a black card is basically a red card as there are no subs to bring on. Senior teams will have to hold a few men off the reserve team in case someone picks up a black early on.
I would imagine this will kill lower forms of reserve football in Tyrone.
That's an interesting point alright.
Some of those lads would rather player at the next level, rather than sit watching and this will have an effect down the road too.
That's it - after a 6 year sabbatical, I'm coming out of retirement to supplement our reserves next season! They're going to need every body they can get, no matter how creaky! My wife's gonna love this!
Milltown is there an official referee's notebook/pad released yet to we get a look at the layout?
Quote from: theticklemister on November 05, 2013, 07:53:39 PM
Milltown is there an official referee's notebook/pad released yet to we get a look at the layout?
Not yet, as far as I know. Will know a lot more next week
I think it will come to this pretty quickly:
(http://static2.sdith-images.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7/thumbnail/464x/85e4522595efc69f496374d01ef2bf13/i/m/image_16353_1_195315_1_38903_1_48_1_272952.jpg)
Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2013, 08:10:12 PM
I think it will come to this pretty quickly:
(http://static2.sdith-images.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7/thumbnail/464x/85e4522595efc69f496374d01ef2bf13/i/m/image_16353_1_195315_1_38903_1_48_1_272952.jpg)
I take it Knobhead is Paudraig Hughes
Question on the black card system for the men in black.
If a player is already on a yellow card and subsequently commits a clear black card offence I.e. deliberately trips an opponent do you issue the black card and have the player replaced or do you issue a second yellow and send them off as previous.
If you do the latter will it be subject to an appeal if the same player has already been double yellowed in the season.
Quote from: SkillfulBill on November 06, 2013, 10:38:16 AM
Question on the black card system for the men in black.
If a player is already on a yellow card and subsequently commits a clear black card offence I.e. deliberately trips an opponent do you issue the black card and have the player replaced or do you issue a second yellow and send them off as previous.
If you do the latter will it be subject to an appeal if the same player has already been double yellowed in the season.
If he pulled him down I'd have thought that was a yellow card, to answer it though it's a minefield, players getting you'd have thought a yellow card was a black card (bar the blocking off a player)
Quote from: Zulu on November 05, 2013, 04:45:36 PM
I'd also imagine referees will so a bit of common sense at lower levels,
Oh God.
From what I have understood the ref will give a black card in that instance which will result in the player being subbed but not a red card where he can't be subbed.
Fouls like dragging a player down to intentionally stop his progress which used to be a yellow card will now be a black card.
The main problem for refs will be how to determine intent. You would hope you will only see the black card in VERY blatant incidents where the tackler makes no attempt to get the ball but just trips or pulls a man down to stop the play.
McEnaneney & Co seem to hoping that players & managers will be smart and just stop doing this pre-mediated fouls now. As so many people said after the infamous Sean Cavanagh incident last year that most players would have done the same as ye only get a yellow. Now you'll get a black card and so the hope is players won't chose to do this any more and so there won't be loads of black cards or subs used.
In the last 5 or 10 mins of a game though I think some players will still choose to by cynical if a player is through for a goal.
Quote from: Zulu on November 05, 2013, 04:45:36 PM
I'd also imagine referees will so a bit of common sense at lower levels, if there are no subs I think most refs will be a bit slower to issue black cards. Lets give this a chance, a proper one, before we go slating it. As I said when it was introduced, I wouldn't have gone with a black card I would have gone with a sin bin. But there can be no doubt that some of the things going on are ruining football so something had to be done and now that this has been chosen I'm willing to give it a go.
No harm Zulu ref's taking their own "common sense" at interpreting the rules is a pretty big problem in itself. We shouldn't be bringing in rules that actually require this.
Quote from: Fuzzman on November 06, 2013, 11:22:14 AM
From what I have understood the ref will give a black card in that instance which will result in the player being subbed but not a red card where he can't be subbed.
Fouls like dragging a player down to intentionally stop his progress which used to be a yellow card will now be a black card.
The main problem for refs will be how to determine intent. You would hope you will only see the black card in VERY blatant incidents where the tackler makes no attempt to get the ball but just trips or pulls a man down to stop the play.
McEnaneney & Co seem to hoping that players & managers will be smart and just stop doing this pre-mediated fouls now. As so many people said after the infamous Sean Cavanagh incident last year that most players would have done the same as ye only get a yellow. Now you'll get a black card and so the hope is players won't chose to do this any more and so there won't be loads of black cards or subs used.
In the last 5 or 10 mins of a game though I think some players will still choose to by cynical if a player is through for a goal.
I can see refs getting a lot of abuse on the pitch due to this. Players
will challenge the refs call on the 'deliberate' nature of a challenge and I can see incidents escalating - particularly in the early stages of games when players come out 'pumped up' and adrenaline kicks in. Obviously refs will also have to be far more diligent in their record keeping and there will be a constant stream of appeals and complaints! Fun times
Quote from: SkillfulBill on November 06, 2013, 10:38:16 AM
Question on the black card system for the men in black.
If a player is already on a yellow card and subsequently commits a clear black card offence I.e. deliberately trips an opponent do you issue the black card and have the player replaced or do you issue a second yellow and send them off as previous.
It has been confirmed that a player who gets a black card while having previously received a yellow will then get a red (a full house!) so will be sent from the field and no replacement allowed.
Lads your understanding is incorrect. The Official GAA twitter released this yesterday
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BYTx8fkCcAAIBeZ.jpg:large)
So, if you are about to sub a player off, he might as well commit a black card offence......
Quote from: rory on November 06, 2013, 04:07:07 PM
So, if you are about to sub a player off, he might as well commit a black card offence......
Yeah so any player who's emptied the tank should bring a player down but make sure he hasn't a yellow beforehand otherwise he can't be replaced.
Heads pickled with this, some difficult questions on that subject will be asked no doubt (we've a seminar next week on rules), the first week of refereeing should be interesting. The hurling ones think it won't affect them much, I doubt it though
QuoteIn the last 5 or 10 mins of a game though I think some players will still choose to by cynical if a player is through for a goal.
One idea for this is that anyone sent off in the second half cannot also play in the first half of the following game. Hard to monitor, perhaps.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2013, 05:09:00 PM
QuoteIn the last 5 or 10 mins of a game though I think some players will still choose to by cynical if a player is through for a goal.
One idea for this is that anyone sent off in the second half cannot also play in the first half of the following game. Hard to monitor, perhaps.
I'd say almost impossible, as it will be a different referee, he could play a game for the thirds or not and claim he did
Quote from: Zulu on November 05, 2013, 04:45:36 PM
I'd also imagine referees will so a bit of common sense at lower levels, if there are no subs I think most refs will be a bit slower to issue black cards. Lets give this a chance, a proper one, before we go slating it. As I said when it was introduced, I wouldn't have gone with a black card I would have gone with a sin bin. But there can be no doubt that some of the things going on are ruining football so something had to be done and now that this has been chosen I'm willing to give it a go.
There is no point bringing in a rule unless it can be adhered to at all levels of the game. Otherwise it leads to inconsistency.
A few guys have mentioned common sense being used by referees. A problem in Tyrone is that referees aren't allowed to use common sense. A number of referees within Tyrone referee training games at our club including Inter County referees. The players like the idea as it gives them an understanding of what referees are looking for but they all will say that they have to stick to the letter of the law in championship games or they will not get another one. It is got to the stage now were as a spectator you could almost be certain whether the referee is being assessed or not. In this year county final Martin Sludden had an almost perfect game and you wouldn't have know he was there. Yet if it was a semi final he would have refereed it differently as he would have had to in order to get the final. Its a known fact that Stephen McNamee had regular barneys with the assessors. Perhaps any Errigal posters could confirm this but after watching the Errigal Dromore match in this years championship, he phoned an Errigal player to apologise for missing a very bad tackle on him. Perhaps more should do this type of thing and they would gain the respect of the players instead of everyone opinion being along the limes of "that arrogant p***k".
Quote from: Wee Roddy on November 07, 2013, 10:34:17 AM
. In this year county final Martin Sludden had an almost perfect game and you wouldn't have know he was there.
I'd say a lot of Louth people wish he'd not been in Croke Park in July 2010 ( or was that applying "common sense" - sure the ball is in the net it has to be a goal???)
Anyway let's wait and see how things pan out before we go down the Gaaboard route of "everything will be a disaster" or "we'll all be ruined says Hanrahan".
Anything that can stop deliberate fouling or make it unprofitable is to be welcomed. Problem is the new proposals may not be strong enough.
Problem is the new proposals may do more to encourage deliberate feigning than they do to stop deliberate fouling.
Quote from: Hardy on November 07, 2013, 11:17:10 AM
Problem is the new proposals may do more to encourage deliberate feigning than they do to stop deliberate fouling.
Christ ya can't win!!! There is no doubt that it will happen "he trip me ref!!" "He blocked me of ref ffs" And if the referee doesn't get it right (according to the team who called for it) then he's a cheating cnut and hates our club!!
As for the assessing it's in all counties and referees do react differently, the 3 times I was assessed this year I didn't know till he came to me after the match ::)
I won't change my style of refereeing, and If I don't get the "big games" because of it so be it, ain't doing it to be the main man. Watched Hughes against us on Sunday, he must have been assessed that day ;)
Referee's job is to apply the rules of the game and not to apply "common sense ".
All I really want to see in a referee is consistency.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 06, 2013, 04:14:19 PM
Quote from: rory on November 06, 2013, 04:07:07 PM
So, if you are about to sub a player off, he might as well commit a black card offence......
Yeah so any player who's emptied the tank should bring a player down but make sure he hasn't a yellow beforehand otherwise he can't be replaced.
Heads pickled with this, some difficult questions on that subject will be asked no doubt (we've a seminar next week on rules), the first week of refereeing should be interesting. The hurling ones think it won't affect them much, I doubt it though
The black card isn't being used in hurling as cynical fouling doesn't happen 8)
Quote from: Canalman on November 07, 2013, 12:32:43 PM
Referee's job is to apply the rules of the game and not to apply "common sense ".
All I really want to see in a referee is consistency.
Yes but what are the rules. There are so many different interpretations used throughout the coarse of one match. If you asked a ref why he booked such and such for one thing and 10 minutes later he didn't book someone for the same thing in the other team, half of them couldn't answer you. Its a tough job but you need "common sense" and a basic understanding of football to be able to referee football.
This is a rule I can't wait to see applied correctly.
Advantage Rule is defined as:
"When a foul is committed the referee may allow the play to continue if he considers it to be to the advantage of the offended team. He shall signal that advantage by raising an arm upright. If he deems no advantage to have occurred, he may subsequently award a free for that foul from where it occurred*. The referee shall allow the advantage to run by maintaining his arm in the upright position for up to five seconds after the initial foul or for less time if it becomes clear that no advantage has accrued. He shall apply any relevant disciplinary action."
One thing I noticed a lot this season was that some referees allow an advantage when there isn't one. The classic example is when a player is fouled as he breaks a tackle and is slowed down. As he breaks the tackle he is waved on but then runs into a wall of 3 or 4 more players almost immediately and is forced to overcarry or is dispossessed. My take on this rule is that a ref can keep his arm aloft and come back to the original foul up to 5 seconds later. If applied correctly, this is a welcome change.
Yeah best rule for a while. Be complaints though. That was more than five seconds ref!!
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 07, 2013, 07:39:46 PM
Yeah best rule for a while. Be complaints though. That was more than five seconds ref!!
Hopefully refs will be a bit more discretionary and not stick to precisely 5 seconds.
Quote from: CD on November 08, 2013, 09:05:39 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 07, 2013, 07:39:46 PM
Yeah best rule for a while. Be complaints though. That was more than five seconds ref!!
Hopefully refs will be a bit more discretionary and not stick to precisely 5 seconds.
Again as someone has already mentioned, the referees are there to apply the rules and not to use there own rules. Anyways should be a good laugh at the start, well versed in getting abuse from the line, be no different this year only different rules they will be
shouting quoting at me.
Only time I never hear them shout is when one of their players punches someone in the face, strange that they never shout to get him off ref ffs he's an animal!!
QuoteAgain as someone has already mentioned, the referees are there to apply the rules and not to use there own rules.
Have you admitted to not doing that when refereeing hurling MR2? Many hurling referees certainly do not apply the rules as per the rule book and seem to be applauded for doing so. People who say 'the referees are there to apply the rules and not to use their own rules' have never tried to ref IMO because if you did you'd soon find out that many physical conformations in both codes occupy that grey area where you could give a free (often either way). If you went out and strictly applied the rules you'd have no game at all so common sense is necessary and is done all the time.
Quote from: Zulu on November 08, 2013, 03:42:41 PM
QuoteAgain as someone has already mentioned, the referees are there to apply the rules and not to use there own rules.
Have you admitted to not doing that when refereeing hurling MR2? Many hurling referees certainly do not apply the rules as per the rule book and seem to be applauded for doing so. People who say 'the referees are there to apply the rules and not to use their own rules' have never tried to ref IMO because if you did you'd soon find out that many physical conformations in both codes occupy that grey area where you could give a free (often either way). If you went out and strictly applied the rules you'd have no game at all so common sense is necessary and is done all the time.
And I do apply the rules to how I'd like it to be applied when I play/played, it was someone else who wanted the rules applied to the letter just like P Hughes did against us last weekend which made a crap game IMO ;).
The advantage rule will actually give me more abilty to do that as I do try and let play continue so I'll be able to bring it back. The key is to ensure you raise the arm and let the players know advantage being played.
Well after last nights seminar on the black card rule I'm a little bit more clued in on the rules, though there are some questions that have been raised that are needing clarification by Croke.
6 subs was a new one I must have missed this year
The 6 Subs thing was well publicised as part of the package at the time.
Refs eh ...??? Tut tut !! :-[
Milltown, myself and a couple of bucks were chatting about this last week. My understanding is...
Teams now have 6 subs they can use in the course of a game. HOWEVER...
- Each time they replace a black cardee, that counts as one of the 6.
- They can only replace a maximum of 3 black cardees
- They cannot replace a black cardee if a) they have already made 6 replacements of whatever sort or b) they have already replaced 3 blackguards.
Am I right?
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 22, 2013, 11:59:40 AM
Milltown, myself and a couple of bucks were chatting about this last week. My understanding is...
Teams now have 6 subs they can use in the course of a game. HOWEVER...
- Each time they replace a black cardee, that counts as one of the 6.
- They can only replace a maximum of 3 black cardees
- They cannot replace a black cardee if a) they have already made 6 replacements of whatever sort or b) they have already replaced 3 blackguards.
Am I right?
Yeah correct
At club level the black cards don't give suspensions after receiving so many of them unlike the yellow cards, but this will be in place for County games.
Was a decent seminar in fairness with plenty of clips of the various fouls, though Pat was spot on with the use of the word deliberate, the body checks need to be deliberate, the pull downs need to be deliberate and that judgement is down to the referee. we all know when someone pulls someone down, but there may be cases were accidental clash pull people down or tangled legs in a tackle. Jersey pulls will still be just a free unless he pulls him deliberately to the ground.
Here are a few areas of concern, jersey being pulled player throws himself to the ground to get that person a black card. A player deliberately running into a player in an attempt to get that person black carded for a blocking tackle. On that a player can stand his ground but if he moves into that player it's a black card. Be hard at the start, that's for sure
milltown.
Will the forwards trick of pulling the defender arm and the two falling results in a black card?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 22, 2013, 12:41:06 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 22, 2013, 11:59:40 AM
Milltown, myself and a couple of bucks were chatting about this last week. My understanding is...
Teams now have 6 subs they can use in the course of a game. HOWEVER...
- Each time they replace a black cardee, that counts as one of the 6.
- They can only replace a maximum of 3 black cardees
- They cannot replace a black cardee if a) they have already made 6 replacements of whatever sort or b) they have already replaced 3 blackguards.
Am I right?
Yeah correct
What about blood subs?
Quote from: Stall the Bailer on November 22, 2013, 01:12:52 PM
milltown.
Will the forwards trick of pulling the defender arm and the two falling results in a black card?
Showed the vey clip, Down V Mayo in the league, Down man pulls down the Mayo man while holding his hand, that's a black card to the Down man.
Quote from: cornerback on November 22, 2013, 02:14:03 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 22, 2013, 12:41:06 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on November 22, 2013, 11:59:40 AM
Milltown, myself and a couple of bucks were chatting about this last week. My understanding is...
Teams now have 6 subs they can use in the course of a game. HOWEVER...
- Each time they replace a black cardee, that counts as one of the 6.
- They can only replace a maximum of 3 black cardees
- They cannot replace a black cardee if a) they have already made 6 replacements of whatever sort or b) they have already replaced 3 blackguards.
Am I right?
Yeah correct
What about blood subs?
Blood subs are still the same