Seeing the following in the SF/PSNI I thought it best to set up a thread so EG could indeed comment on this subject. ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on Today at 19:34:18
I suspect there may be other threads which deal with Policing and Parades etc.
Quote from Nally Stand Today ar 20:39
And if there were, I'm sure you would be all over such threads, busily condemning the behaviour of the bands for breaking the law in full view of the police yet again at the weekend
At least he won't lie awake at night anymore, wishing this thread existed.
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2013, 09:32:29 PM
Seeing the following in the SF/PSNI I thought it best to set up a thread so EG could indeed comment on this subject. ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on Today at 19:34:18
I suspect there may be other threads which deal with Policing and Parades etc.
Quote from Nally Stand Today ar 20:39
And if there were, I'm sure you would be all over such threads, busily condemning the behaviour of the bands for breaking the law in full view of the police yet again at the weekend
If the worst offence committed in the course of the upcoming marching season is bands playing hymns instead of a single drum beat, then we'll be doing okay.
amen to that :D
Is it now legal to burn rubber tyres on bonfires?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 25, 2013, 10:55:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2013, 09:32:29 PM
Seeing the following in the SF/PSNI I thought it best to set up a thread so EG could indeed comment on this subject. ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on Today at 19:34:18
I suspect there may be other threads which deal with Policing and Parades etc.
Quote from Nally Stand Today ar 20:39
And if there were, I'm sure you would be all over such threads, busily condemning the behaviour of the bands for breaking the law in full view of the police yet again at the weekend
If the worst offence committed in the course of the upcoming marching season is bands playing hymns instead of a single drum beat, then we'll be doing okay.
Are you are a little slow or being deliberately facetious? If the marchers openly flout a PC ruling it obviously stokes up tensions - inviting their counterparts (I.e. the dregs of nationalist society) to react. Why do you think Saturday's parade ended the way it did? Once one side steps out of line all bets are off.
In the loyalist mentality, parading and bonfires is their culture and is an equal and opposite to the GAA.
So if they parade where they are not wanted, does that mean gaelic footballers try harder during a match?
Quote from: Orior on June 26, 2013, 01:23:01 PM
In the loyalist mentality, parading and bonfires is their culture and is an equal and opposite to the GAA.
So if they parade where they are not wanted, does that mean gaelic footballers try harder during a match?
Rossknowlough must be more contentious that I thought going by the effort the Donegal lads are putting in.
Quote from: Orior on June 26, 2013, 01:23:01 PM
In the loyalist mentality, parading and bonfires is their culture and is an equal and opposite to the GAA.
So if they parade where they are not wanted, does that mean gaelic footballers try harder during a match?
This comparison always sticks in my throat and 'our' politicians have never for me done enough to distance the GAA from this rabble.
The GAA is s sporting organisation which as anything here has been touched by the troubles in different ways and has come through as strong and confident organisation. But to be compared to a hate filled rabble that's sole existence is hatred of all things Catholics and Irish people is to be condemned.
We should be calling this comparison every time it is raised by these low life Unionist politicians.
The OO and their marches should (and I think eventually will) be completely banned. They are no different than the KKK. No other western civilised society would entertain them.
Quote from: EC Unique on June 26, 2013, 03:58:17 PM
The OO and their marches should (and I think eventually will) be completely banned. They are no different than the KKK. No other western civilised society would entertain them.
That'll be a while.
Quote from: orangeman on June 26, 2013, 05:42:10 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on June 26, 2013, 03:58:17 PM
The OO and their marches should (and I think eventually will) be completely banned. They are no different than the KKK. No other western civilised society would entertain them.
That'll be a while.
Like I said....eventually.
Quote from: EC Unique on June 26, 2013, 03:58:17 PM
The OO and their marches should (and I think eventually will) be completely banned. They are no different than the KKK. No other western civilised society would entertain them.
We have them here every year without any trouble - this year will be the 193rd in a row
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X0XO4F4z_zM
Quote from: EC Unique on June 26, 2013, 03:58:17 PM
The OO and their marches should (and I think eventually will) be completely banned. They are no different than the KKK. No other western civilised society would entertain them.
There speaks the voice of reason.
Context and venue, Gabe. Do you go down town in your Tyrone jersey to see them march? Would you be as keen to do that in Portadown? Do our Canadian brethern build colossal 11th night bonfires in which they incinerate effigies, flags and symbols of things Catholic and Nationalist? Do they march in a circle in front of a Catholic church playing Protestant hymns whose subtext is FTP.
Quote from: EC Unique on June 26, 2013, 03:58:17 PM
The OO and their marches should (and I think eventually will) be completely banned. They are no different than the KKK. No other western civilised society would entertain them.
The KKK isn't banned in the USA.
Quote from: Franko on June 26, 2013, 01:10:05 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 25, 2013, 10:55:29 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 25, 2013, 09:32:29 PM
Seeing the following in the SF/PSNI I thought it best to set up a thread so EG could indeed comment on this subject. ;)
Quote from: Evil Genius on Today at 19:34:18
I suspect there may be other threads which deal with Policing and Parades etc.
Quote from Nally Stand Today ar 20:39
And if there were, I'm sure you would be all over such threads, busily condemning the behaviour of the bands for breaking the law in full view of the police yet again at the weekend
If the worst offence committed in the course of the upcoming marching season is bands playing hymns instead of a single drum beat, then we'll be doing okay.
Are you are a little slow or being deliberately facetious? If the marchers openly flout a PC ruling it obviously stokes up tensions - inviting their counterparts (I.e. the dregs of nationalist society) to react. Why do you think Saturday's parade ended the way it did? Once one side steps out of line all bets are off.
The march 'ended the way it did' because of trouble at the other end of Peters Hill when, allegedly, a loyalist mob ran across a car park and kicked doors belonging to nationalist residents. I say allegedly, because the same spokesman who told us that bit of news is the same person who claimed that bandsmen spat at bystanders and effed the pope while (presumably) the photographers of the world had turned their backs on proceedings in order to have a kit kat break. The parade itself was relatively uncontentious this time around. Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling. Fact of the matter is, there are people in our society (on both sides) who turn up at these events specifically to be annoyed. Some travel great distances to be there, just so they can be annoyed. There's nothing you can do about people like that except ignore them
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 26, 2013, 09:02:54 PM
Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling.
That's been the standard Orange Order defence for everything over the years. Singing hymns? Some people will be offended by anything. Holding up five fingers as they pass the site where five people were murdered the previous week? Some people will be offended by anything. The Orange Order are allowed march if they follow the rules. If they don't, they shouldn't be allowed march. This should be uncontroversial, but we can't have any wins for The Other Ones, can we?
Quote from: deiseach on June 26, 2013, 11:24:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 26, 2013, 09:02:54 PM
Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling.
That's been the standard Orange Order defence for everything over the years. Singing hymns? Some people will be offended by anything. Holding up five fingers as they pass the site where five people were murdered the previous week? Some people will be offended by anything. The Orange Order are allowed march if they follow the rules. If they don't, they shouldn't be allowed march. This should be uncontroversial, but we can't have any wins for The Other Ones, can we?
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
Quote from: deiseach on June 26, 2013, 11:24:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 26, 2013, 09:02:54 PM
Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling.
That's been the standard Orange Order defence for everything over the years. Singing hymns? Some people will be offended by anything. Holding up five fingers as they pass the site where five people were murdered the previous week? Some people will be offended by anything. The Orange Order are allowed march if they follow the rules. If they don't, they shouldn't be allowed march. This should be uncontroversial, but we can't have any wins for The Other Ones, can we?
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
The Orange clan were playing a cute game here. They did not want to stick to the PC ruling so they broke the rules but by playing hymns it lets their supporters defend it as 'sure it's just hymns' like we see above..
They despise the PC and hate sticking to the rules as it undermines their dominant status..
Quote
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
If either act contravenes a Parades Commission ruling and therefore result in breaking the law then they are comparable. Or is it ok to breach PC conditions as long as you dont do it in a controversial, offensive or sectarian way?
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
The point is, there are rules governing the parades. If you prefer, we can call these rules 'laws'. Can you explain what constitutes an acceptable level of law-breaking when it comes to the Orange Order?
We cant have a hierarchy of rule breaches
I'm very disappointed. :'(
I set up a thread specially for one of the most verbose posters on the GAABoard as he felt he couldn't comment without a thread specifically relating to this subject.
Still no comment from him :'( :'(
I feel so let down. :(
Quote from: EC Unique on June 27, 2013, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
Quote from: deiseach on June 26, 2013, 11:24:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 26, 2013, 09:02:54 PM
Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling.
That's been the standard Orange Order defence for everything over the years. Singing hymns? Some people will be offended by anything. Holding up five fingers as they pass the site where five people were murdered the previous week? Some people will be offended by anything. The Orange Order are allowed march if they follow the rules. If they don't, they shouldn't be allowed march. This should be uncontroversial, but we can't have any wins for The Other Ones, can we?
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
The Orange clan were playing a cute game here. They did not want to stick to the PC ruling so they broke the rules but by playing hymns it lets their supporters defend it as 'sure it's just hymns' like we see above..
They despise the PC and hate sticking to the rules as it undermines their dominant status..
There are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 12:25:13 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on June 27, 2013, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
Quote from: deiseach on June 26, 2013, 11:24:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 26, 2013, 09:02:54 PM
Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling.
That's been the standard Orange Order defence for everything over the years. Singing hymns? Some people will be offended by anything. Holding up five fingers as they pass the site where five people were murdered the previous week? Some people will be offended by anything. The Orange Order are allowed march if they follow the rules. If they don't, they shouldn't be allowed march. This should be uncontroversial, but we can't have any wins for The Other Ones, can we?
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
The Orange clan were playing a cute game here. They did not want to stick to the PC ruling so they broke the rules but by playing hymns it lets their supporters defend it as 'sure it's just hymns' like we see above..
They despise the PC and hate sticking to the rules as it undermines their dominant status..
There are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.
Would it be too much to ask the Order to keep their marches to places where they are welcome instead of insisting on marching in areas where they are clearly not wanted by the people who live their?
They want to march in Nationalist areas to show dominance..
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 12:25:13 PM
There are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.
If you don't have "a dog in this particular fight" then you should be insisting the rules be followed to the letter. Of course republicans are going to look for any stick with which to beat the Orange Order, but if you are truly objective about it you can't say that only some of the rules should be applied. The argument about there being 'two sides' to the conflict was the same one used to defend the actions of the RUC and the British Army during the height of the conflict, yet curiously enough the law only ever seemed to come down heavy on one side.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 12:25:13 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on June 27, 2013, 09:31:17 AM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 07:12:17 AM
Quote from: deiseach on June 26, 2013, 11:24:45 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 26, 2013, 09:02:54 PM
Yes the band broke the rules and played hymns. If that is enough to stoke up tensions amongst residents, then they'd have found some other reason to be annoyed even if the bands had observed the PC ruling.
That's been the standard Orange Order defence for everything over the years. Singing hymns? Some people will be offended by anything. Holding up five fingers as they pass the site where five people were murdered the previous week? Some people will be offended by anything. The Orange Order are allowed march if they follow the rules. If they don't, they shouldn't be allowed march. This should be uncontroversial, but we can't have any wins for The Other Ones, can we?
So the playing of hymns is comparable with taunting people about the murder of their neighbours on the very spot it happened? Sorry, I don't see that.
The Orange clan were playing a cute game here. They did not want to stick to the PC ruling so they broke the rules but by playing hymns it lets their supporters defend it as 'sure it's just hymns' like we see above..
They despise the PC and hate sticking to the rules as it undermines their dominant status..
There are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.
Punishment shouldnt be for playing hymns - but for breaking the law. It isnt justifiable to break the law and then argue that its ok because it wasnt as bad as themmuns say it was.
Maybe residents representatives could take their lead on making allegations from our esteemed politicians. Ian McCrea tweeted about an unprovoked attack with a hurley stick on a loyalist band member - yet the police are investigating an attack on the person WITH the hurl - go figure...
http://www.midulstermail.co.uk/news/local/conflicting-versions-of-hurley-attack-at-kilrea-parade-1-5218965
Quote from: No Soloing on June 27, 2013, 12:48:12 PM
Punishment shouldnt be for playing hymns - but for breaking the law. It isnt justifiable to break the law and then argue that its ok because it wasnt as bad as themmuns say it was.
Exactly. Let's assume both sides are being equally unreasonable. The Parades Commission is an attempt to find a middle ground between these equally unreasonable sides. If the Orange Order had followed the rules, they would have been able to say "hey, we did what we were told. What more can we do?" To which the answer would be "nothing". But they just couldn't help themselves, could they? And they'll never feel the need to look to themselves as long as they have the likes of Myles to appoint themselves as neutral observers and say that it was okay after all.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 12:25:13 PM
I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat breaking the law
Fixed that for you myles. P.s. Your repeated attempt to equate residents of an area with those taking part in sectarian marches through that area is truly bizzare.
Any self respecting citizen with half a brain-cell would see the wood for the trees. The quote below is absolute nonsense.
QuoteThere are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.
Firstly I will start off by saying that there is NO struggle for domination (but your Unionist mentality is clearly shining through with this ill-informed assertion)
The only struggle is to get the OO to speak with residents' groups. Something they refuse to do. Residents' groups are perfectly entitled to challenge parades through their areas; especially when the OO insists on inviting bands who are unable to behave in a civilised and dignified manner. (See playing sectarian tunes outside chapels while your supporters sing along as an example of uncivilised/undignified behaviour)
Instead of ignoring the circumstances behind this particular contentious route why don't you engage in a pragmatic contextualisation of why local residents have taken issue with the behaviour of the Orange Order in the first place.
Given the pathetic antics witnessed last year, there's a strong probability that those "spurious" allegations regarding spitting and swearing are indeed true. I would certainly take the word of someone who lives there ahead of some anonymous poster on the internet - the enthusiastic manner in which you dismiss them is certainly telling.
By the way, I personally support the right to march in or through areas that are non-contentious and where residents and business owners have been consulted and have given their support.
Quote from: qubdub on June 27, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
Any self respecting citizen with half a brain-cell would see the wood for the trees. The quote below is absolute nonsense.
QuoteThere are two sides engaged in the struggle for domination around the parading issue, not one. The Orange Order is one, republican residents groups are the second. I don't have a dog in this particular fight as I wouldn't align myself with either, but I can see clearly that when republicans insist that the loyal orders be punished for playing hymns rather than a single drum beat, or when they make spurious allegations about spitting and swearing, they are attempting to play the domination game in exactly the same way as the loyal orders have done over the years.
Firstly I will start off by saying that there is NO struggle for domination (but your Unionist mentality is clearly shining through with this ill-informed assertion)
The only struggle is to get the OO to speak with residents' groups. Something they refuse to do. Residents' groups are perfectly entitled to challenge parades through their areas; especially when the OO insists on inviting bands who are unable to behave in a civilised and dignified manner. (See playing sectarian tunes outside chapels while your supporters sing along as an example of uncivilised/undignified behaviour)
Instead of ignoring the circumstances behind this particular contentious route why don't you engage in a pragmatic contextualisation of why local residents have taken issue with the behaviour of the Orange Order in the first place.
Given the pathetic antics witnessed last year, there's a strong probability that those "spurious" allegations regarding spitting and swearing are indeed true. I would certainly take the word of someone who lives there ahead of some anonymous poster on the internet - the enthusiastic manner in which you dismiss them is certainly telling.
By the way, I personally support the right to march in or through areas that are non-contentious and where residents and business owners have been consulted and have given their support.
Speaking of ill informed assertions...just because you assert that there is no struggle for domination, doesn't make that the case.
Which residents would you have the OO talk with? They've met and spoken with clergy and parishioners of St Patrick's, but it seems that's not good enough. They also have to meet with The Residents - that's the group which helped Sinn Fein make its propaganda video of the march, the one on which a spokesman for The Residents made spurious allegations about the marchers. Why would the OO want to talk with that man or his colleagues?
Also, like many other contentious marches (Garvaghy and Ardoyne, for e.g), the march down Clifton Street doesn't go 'through'a residential area. It's part of a main arterial route into the city and its mostly comprised of shops, businesses, the Orange Hall, the Indian Centre, etc. How else are the marchers to get into town if they don't use this road? Of course, they could get bussed in, but that sort of defeats the purpose. Not much of a parade if everyone has to get on a bus. The problem with only going through 'non contentious' areas is that this category changes year by year and always in one direction. I'm from north Belfast and unfortunately I'm old enough to remember the 1960s. I can remember when Orange marches came down along the Antrim Road, past the top of the New Lodge Road, before reaching Carlisle Circus and Clifton Street. They didn't need a police escort, or not much of one anyway. That route is now closed to them, just like the Garvaghy and Ormeau Roads, with Clifton Street and Ardoyne now subject to major restrictions. If I was an Orangeman or a bandsman or a supporter - and despite your ill informed assertions, I'm none of those - I'd feel my traditions were under concerted attack. I'd feel republicans were trying to teach me my place by restricting were and in what manner I could express my culture.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
I can remember when Orange marches came down along the Antrim Road, past the top of the New Lodge Road, before reaching Carlisle Circus and Clifton Street. They didn't need a police escort, or not much of one anyway.
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xiaCDgx7iTs/TpEDCs2knQI/AAAAAAAAFds/3ZudEdAzKRw/s1600/Shiny+Happy+People.jpg)
Orange Order parades before the beastly Provos came on the scene.
True Deiseach....and also, just to expand on that, did you know that the Catholic/Nationalist residents of the areas where
sectarian cultural marches now take place are all rabid provos and therefor it's unfair to expect the
sectarian cultural group in question to talk to them.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
I can remember when Orange marches came down along the Antrim Road, past the top of the New Lodge Road, before reaching Carlisle Circus and Clifton Street. They didn't need a police escort, or not much of one anyway. That route is now closed to them, just like the Garvaghy and Ormeau Roads, with Clifton Street and Ardoyne now subject to major restrictions....If I was an Orangeman or a bandsman or a supporter, I'd feel my traditions were under concerted attack.
Ahhh those were the good old days alright, when the croppies lay down and knew their place. They're getting far to fcukin' uppity of themselves nowadays.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 27, 2013, 04:14:47 PM
[. The problem with only going through 'non contentious' areas is that this category changes year by year and always in one direction. .
If I was an Orangeman or a bandsman or a supporter - and despite your ill informed assertions, I'm none of those - I'd feel my traditions were under concerted attack. I'd feel republicans were trying to teach me my place by restricting were and in what manner I could express my culture.
So what do you/they want ? Compulsory sterilisation of Catholics/Nationalists? Or herd them all into high rise blocks on some reservation??
Maybe if those parades were to become simply Religious/cultural thingys nobody would be objecting ;) Why don't they try that for a change??
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 27, 2013, 04:33:20 PM
True Deiseach....and also, just to expand on that, did you know that the Catholic/Nationalist residents of the areas where sectarian cultural marches now take place are all rabid provos and therefor it's unfair to expect the sectarian cultural group in question to talk to them.
What cracks me up is the idea that it would be outrageous for the Orange Order to talk to The Residents. I would have said it would be outrageous for The Residents to have to talk to the Orange Order. There would be no soap potent enough, no water hot enough...