With all the talk by Grimley about sticking to not having a sweeper and Galway's defensive nativity naivety yesterday it seems like a good opportunity to bring up the question. Blanket defence, forwards tracking back, single or dual sweepers, it all comes from the same basic philosophy.
Do people think there is another way to be successful? Is it brave or stupid to try a different tact? Is the way the game is being played at the top level the tactical end-point of the sport?
Galway's defensive nativity? Were all their defenders born in stables?
You can win an odd game or two ,If you're playing against a team who isn't playing with one either or perhaps if you're playing a very inferior team than that of your own.
You won't go far though.
The days of playing 6 backs v 6 attackers, and hoping each man wins his individual battle is long gone. Opposing teams are constantly trying to isolate defenders in one on ones.
It is interesting to wonder where football will evolve to tactically in terms of defending. Perhaps it may go to the point of near zonal marking filling up the scoring zone.
Give it a few years syfeen and most of the top teams will be banjaxed with players with cruciate and hamstring injuries.
The catch and kick stuff will be far more effective when the swarm is composed of limpers and hoppers. It will be nature's way of reverting to the mean. Meath and Galway will be back on song when that happens.
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 10:26:38 AM
The days of playing 6 backs v 6 attackers, and hoping each man wins his individual battle is long gone. Opposing teams are constantly trying to isolate defenders in one on ones.
It is interesting to wonder where football will evolve to tactically in terms of defending. Perhaps it may go to the point of near zonal marking filling up the scoring zone.
DJGaliv - Has no one informed Galway that this is what is already happening!
Maybe that is where it has been going wrong ;)
Quote from: NAG1 on May 21, 2013, 11:15:31 AM
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 10:26:38 AM
The days of playing 6 backs v 6 attackers, and hoping each man wins his individual battle is long gone. Opposing teams are constantly trying to isolate defenders in one on ones.
It is interesting to wonder where football will evolve to tactically in terms of defending. Perhaps it may go to the point of near zonal marking filling up the scoring zone.
DJGaliv - Has no one informed Galway that this is what is already happening!
Maybe that is where it has been going wrong ;)
I suppose what I mean is corner backs not bothering to mark anyone at all. (Galway did that unintentionally and left the keeper to cover!)
I know the idea of the scoring zone has been around for quite a while, and crowding it out is what's been going on for years. However with the quality of forwards like Stephen O'Neill about who can score from anywhere, there needs to be more than just filling up a scoring zone.
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 11:36:42 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on May 21, 2013, 11:15:31 AM
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 10:26:38 AM
The days of playing 6 backs v 6 attackers, and hoping each man wins his individual battle is long gone. Opposing teams are constantly trying to isolate defenders in one on ones.
It is interesting to wonder where football will evolve to tactically in terms of defending. Perhaps it may go to the point of near zonal marking filling up the scoring zone.
DJGaliv - Has no one informed Galway that this is what is already happening!
Maybe that is where it has been going wrong ;)
I suppose what I mean is corner backs not bothering to mark anyone at all. (Galway did that unintentionally and left the keeper to cover!)
I know the idea of the scoring zone has been around for quite a while, and crowding it out is what's been going on for years. However with the quality of forwards like Stephen O'Neill about who can score from anywhere, there needs to be more than just filling up a scoring zone.
Yeah that's the job of the 'sweeper', the 6 backs mark a forward each and either one or two sweepers fill the scoring zone and try to intercept the balls into the danger men like O'Neill. But Donegal brought this to a new level with Mark McHugh because he was able to have the ability to sweep and then be the break ball carrier and set the play up, so in an instant he turned from being a negative influence on the game to a positive one. That's the key, a lot of the weaker teams who employ the sweeper really lack any clout going forward then and that's when the game becomes stagnant. To have that pace and ability to spring forward with your 'sweepers' playing an active role seems to be way forward.
I suppose what I mean is corner backs not bothering to mark anyone at all. (Galway did that unintentionally and left the keeper to cover!)
I know the idea of the scoring zone has been around for quite a while, and crowding it out is what's been going on for years. However with the quality of forwards like Stephen O'Neill about who can score from anywhere, there needs to be more than just filling up a scoring zone.
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Yeah that's the job of the 'sweeper', the 6 backs mark a forward each and either one or two sweepers fill the scoring zone and try to intercept the balls into the danger men like O'Neill. But Donegal brought this to a new level with Mark McHugh because he was able to have the ability to sweep and then be the break ball carrier and set the play up, so in an instant he turned from being a negative influence on the game to a positive one. That's the key, a lot of the weaker teams who employ the sweeper really lack any clout going forward then and that's when the game becomes stagnant. To have that pace and ability to spring forward with your 'sweepers' playing an active role seems to be way forward.
[/quote]
Our senior club team play with one sweeper - named at no.15 and coming back into the half back line with two wing forwards coming in between the wing backs and centre back and breaking forward. Not too attractive but effective.
I watched the 1998 All Ireland final last night to get me out of the depression, and it's amazing to see how much football has progressed.
Where can you see the next tactical evolution coming from?
Next "big change" imvho will be pace and long kick passing. Can also see the old fashioned big full forward coming back which will keep the "sweeper" pretty much anchored around the goals thereby freeing up space for the other forwards.
Alot imvho again will depend on how Dublin do this year. Succeed and they will be yakkedy yak "a breath of fresh air" , fail and they will be "tactically naive".
Sadly I think the day of the nippy skilfull smaller corner forward is on the way out ( if not gone already).
As always AIs will be won and lost by how good your forward line is and in particular how many of the non marquee forwards chip in with 2 points or so a game .
Quote from: NAG1 on May 21, 2013, 11:47:44 AM
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 11:36:42 AM
Quote from: NAG1 on May 21, 2013, 11:15:31 AM
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 10:26:38 AM
The days of playing 6 backs v 6 attackers, and hoping each man wins his individual battle is long gone. Opposing teams are constantly trying to isolate defenders in one on ones.
It is interesting to wonder where football will evolve to tactically in terms of defending. Perhaps it may go to the point of near zonal marking filling up the scoring zone.
DJGaliv - Has no one informed Galway that this is what is already happening!
Maybe that is where it has been going wrong ;)
I suppose what I mean is corner backs not bothering to mark anyone at all. (Galway did that unintentionally and left the keeper to cover!)
I know the idea of the scoring zone has been around for quite a while, and crowding it out is what's been going on for years. However with the quality of forwards like Stephen O'Neill about who can score from anywhere, there needs to be more than just filling up a scoring zone.
Yeah that's the job of the 'sweeper', the 6 backs mark a forward each and either one or two sweepers fill the scoring zone and try to intercept the balls into the danger men like O'Neill. But Donegal brought this to a new level with Mark McHugh because he was able to have the ability to sweep and then be the break ball carrier and set the play up, so in an instant he turned from being a negative influence on the game to a positive one. That's the key, a lot of the weaker teams who employ the sweeper really lack any clout going forward then and that's when the game becomes stagnant. To have that pace and ability to spring forward with your 'sweepers' playing an active role seems to be way forward.
I think we are stuck in this evolution for a while to come as other teams will try to copy the Donegal type system more and more. You will see a bigger emphasis (if that is possible ) on strength and conditioning more so in terms of pace and speed work as opposed to the traditional bulking up.
IMO there are a couple of options - either sit back even deeper drawing the teams onto you and then hit with lightening fast break outs or to play 3 big ball winners in the FF line and thump the ball in long and direct by passing the sweepers. Armagh had good success with this esp with the diagonal, but there are more risks in this approach.
Here's the thing about the mass defence system; it only really works well when you've got full-forwards capable of winning their own ball, and then capable of doing something with it. But as the same time, most sides can't afford not to do it.
The target men will be isolated more often than not, and even teams as physically strong on the running counter attack as Donegal, Mayo or Cork, can't get by without an outlet ball. It saps too much energy.
The full-forwards don't have to be big, but they do have to be ball winners.
The teams with better forwards can play extra men back safe in the knowledge that they've got game winners up top, so just need to keep the opposition scoring down. The teams with poorer forwards have no choice but to retreat into a defensive formation, otherwise they'll be blown out of the water. You just can't leave 2 vs 2 if the attacking 2 are McFadden and Murphy.
Every once in a while a team will get two giant target men, like Kerry had in 2008-09 (and Armagh had to a lesser extent in 2002-03, not so big, but both gifted in the air) and the arial bombardment might come across as a new tactic, but in reality it's a simple utilisation of unusually big players, which is no longer a tactic once one of them is unavailable. Nor does it curtail the blanket.
The next major tactical shift might occur if the new black card rules are actually applied properly. If 3rd man tackles are kept to a minimum, we could see the game becoming more like rugby, where it's all about line breaks, carrying the ball into space, and quick hands to supporting runners, with everyone behind the ball at all times.
The only things that are really stopping this approach at present is the lack of supporting runners, plus the mentality that the ball must go into the full-forwards. Once the runners are freed up, I really wouldn't be surprised to see the change in mentality.
I often wonder if soccer used to be played years ago with 11 men marking each other. I know the offside rule makes that more difficult, but football isn't now far off the soccer tactic of having 4 backs to mark just 2 forwards.
I agree with that - the greater emphasis on strength and conditioning towards speed, agility quickness rather than pure strength.
Without wanting to offend the old school brigade - looking at other sports and seeing how they have developed and evolved.
Soccer for example was into the tough physical run-all-day midfielder - Viera ten years ago, and subsequently the sweeper/holder who was a free man - termed Makelele role, and progressed to Barcelona's small but technically excellent possession based players, through to today's German quick transition based football.
I know completely different games, but you wonder if you look at Armagh's physicality being comparable to Viera et al where people really started to take an interest in strength and conditioning. The sweeper role tactical method could equate to the Makelele holder/spare man. So is the next step an increase in the more technical speedier footballer or am I talking a load of sh1te?
Load of sh1te is probably the answer.
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 02:02:37 PM
I agree with that - the greater emphasis on strength and conditioning towards speed, agility quickness rather than pure strength.
Without wanting to offend the old school brigade - looking at other sports and seeing how they have developed and evolved.
Soccer for example was into the tough physical run-all-day midfielder - Viera ten years ago, and subsequently the sweeper/holder who was a free man - termed Makelele role, and progressed to Barcelona's small but technically excellent possession based players, through to today's German quick transition based football.
I know completely different games, but you wonder if you look at Armagh's physicality being comparable to Viera et al where people really started to take an interest in strength and conditioning. The sweeper role tactical method could equate to the Makelele holder/spare man. So is the next step an increase in the more technical speedier footballer or am I talking a load of sh1te?
Load of sh1te is probably the answer.
I think your reasoning is sound enough and bang on with the soccer stuff. But in terms of Gaelic Football as good big one will always beat a small good one. Just the nature of the game, there will always be room for a small techniquely gifted player, but not a team comprised of them.
The game sure is changing a lot and many of the older heads are finally accepting it's no longer your traditional 6 v 6 game any more.
The attempt to remove the cynical fouling will sure have a big affect next year as its an important part of the current systems where a team push forward together often working the ball sideways and back around a defensive blanket but if the ball is lost then often a man is dragged down so they can get time to get back and rebuild their defence.
I'd say the Dubs are a little worried as they are keen not to use a sweeper type system this year but will they change their mind come 1/4 final stage?
Quote from: NAG1 on May 21, 2013, 02:11:39 PM
Quote from: DJGaliv on May 21, 2013, 02:02:37 PM
I agree with that - the greater emphasis on strength and conditioning towards speed, agility quickness rather than pure strength.
Without wanting to offend the old school brigade - looking at other sports and seeing how they have developed and evolved.
Soccer for example was into the tough physical run-all-day midfielder - Viera ten years ago, and subsequently the sweeper/holder who was a free man - termed Makelele role, and progressed to Barcelona's small but technically excellent possession based players, through to today's German quick transition based football.
I know completely different games, but you wonder if you look at Armagh's physicality being comparable to Viera et al where people really started to take an interest in strength and conditioning. The sweeper role tactical method could equate to the Makelele holder/spare man. So is the next step an increase in the more technical speedier footballer or am I talking a load of sh1te?
Load of sh1te is probably the answer.
I think your reasoning is sound enough and bang on with the soccer stuff. But in terms of Gaelic Football as good big one will always beat a small good one. Just the nature of the game, there will always be room for a small techniquely gifted player, but not a team comprised of them.
That's true, the physicality allowed in the game will always result in a good big one favoured over a good small one.
I wonder how much the black card, as the lads have said, will impact the tactical aspect of the game?
Surely it will promote the running off the shoulder and direct at opponents - knowing the opposition run the risk of losing a key player. I worry we will see a huge increase in diving, and this may be followed by a decrease in the importance of physical footballers over pacy technical players if they are so well protected with the introduction of the black card.
Bomber Liston would eat up the sweeper system lol. if you have some special defenders, you could get away with a flat back 6 but a team would need 4 outstanding defenders, most teams these days can barely get 1
Players 1-15 have always had license to go wherever they liked on the pitch. There has never been any rule preventing them from that. Along with evolution of tactics, players nowadays are more intelligent. The good players read the attacks instinctively and know if they need to get players back, the good half-backs and corner-backs also know when to pushup and get on the overlap. The whole idea of a "sweeper" is outdated too. Having one player the freedom to hang around his own defence is unfair to everyone else. Instinctively players should be adopting the sweeping role attack by attack. The good teams do this.
The theory behind Donegal's success last year is not down to a mass defence really. Gaelic Football nowadays can be divided in two, when you have the ball and when you don't. When you have it, then the players behind the man in possession should be trying to get up in support to create an overlap. Man in possession gets slowed down in first tackle, gives the ball off, and the sequence repeats. On top of that the players in front of the man in possession should be making runs, trying to create gaps and voids. A goal chance is never more than 5 seconds away in Gaelic Football (in my opinion). Mayo I felt perfected the art of movement in the forwards last year. Second part is what you do when you don't have the ball and that's simple really. You put pressure on the kicker, tackling, shadowing, whatever. But as in soccer, the focus of defence is only when the opposition crosses the half way line. I mean you don't want to press high up the pitch and leave loads of space behind you. A simple ball over the top will catch you out then.
In terms of positioning and this idea of zonal defending (and zonal attacking if there is such a thing) Gaelic Football is probably quite similiar ot soccer. Though the skills such as scoring, soloing on the run, tackling, blocking, catching will always be unique to this sport.
That's my philosophy anyway.
Agree with Sea the Stars in his overall point. it's not a case of playing with a sweeper it's playing with cop on.
Jaysus lads Cavan's forwards dropped back into their own half so all the Armagh lads had to do was stay put and then Dunne wouldn't have had acres to run into.
Not needing a sweeper they needed a traditional centre half back who is and always has been meant to be the man with the ability to read a game. From Geezer to Glenn Ryan they would instinctively dropped in front of Dunne. That shouldn't need a tactic.
As for Galway when your full back line are running out the field when your team are under pressure leaving the keeper with a two v one that is just a lack of cop on.
We are obsessed these days with tactics and lads there are plenty of managers picking up cheques who want us all to belief that football is very complicated these days but the simple things still count.
Like Grimley is not keen on stopping an open style of play but that doesn't mean you leave a man inside with acres of space roasting you full back all day!