If only the loyalist/unionist fraternity could realise, the person who has the best chance of saving the Union is actually John McCallister . His liberal brand of unionism would appeal to a considerable number of moderate nationalists, who might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there, and would be content with the status quo if there was a bit less of the in your face Britishness, in fact the people who Peter Robinson, in his head would like to reach out to but in his heart cannot
Problem is he would be a vote loser on unionist side,who never have nor will vote for moderate candidates,unfortunately.
Quotewho might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there
Because you have a username based on a character with a tenuous grasp of reality does not mean that you have to post nonsense.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 05:36:23 PM
Quotewho might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there
Because you have a username based on a character with a tenuous grasp of reality does not mean that you have to post nonsense.
Ireland has long been, and never will be inclined to left wing politics en mass. It wont matter what political stance the south take.
The important thing is that when a 32 county republic exists; it is the that a prefered state of the 32 counties can be formed.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 05:36:23 PM
Quotewho might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there
Because you have a username based on a character with a tenuous grasp of reality does not mean that you have to post nonsense.
and could you find a better description for those who drafted the last few budgets Or to describe Dev or the Progressive Democrats. Need I go on
dunno about ultra right wing, i wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying fine gael was a centre right party, and that fianna fail was slightly more centrist, but still fairly centre right.
Tories the whole lot down there.
Quoteand could you find a better description for those who drafted the last few budgets Or to describe Dev or the Progressive Democrats. Need I go on
A state that offers social welfare at twice the levels paid in the 6 counties, where unemployment payments can be drawn indefinitely , cannot be described as ultra right wing by any person with any regard for the meaning of the English language.
There is a difference between right wing politics and realistic politics.
It's all relative. The insistence of keeping income tax rates the same to protect the wealthy while increasing other charges universally cannot sit fairly with any right minded person
QuoteThe insistence of keeping income tax rates the same to protect the wealthy while increasing other charges universally cannot sit fairly with any right minded person
It certainly can sit fairly with a logical person. Increased income tax reduces the incentive to work or do anything while increasing charges makes it clear that things cost, which is by and large desirable also.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 06:02:35 PM
Quoteand could you find a better description for those who drafted the last few budgets Or to describe Dev or the Progressive Democrats. Need I go on
A state that offers social welfare at twice the levels paid in the 6 counties, where unemployment payments can be drawn indefinitely, cannot be described as ultra right wing by any person with any regard for the meaning of the English language.
There is a difference between right wing politics and realistic politics.
you could argue that the realistic politics needed today, if you're comfortable with that phrase, has come about because of right wing politics though no?
Quoteif you're comfortable with that phrase, has come about because of right wing politics though no?
It has come about because of confused politics. Bertie reckoned he could both cut taxes and increase benefits and that he had discovered the perpetual motion economy.
The modern version of this confusion is that taxing the "wealthy", a relatively small number of people, is some kind of rational substitute for tax on the "ordinary families", which is most people.
Sadly, in Ireland people don't seem in least bit embarrassed about putting forward things that don't add up.
Quote from: cadence link=topic=22634.msg1191769#msg11917h69 date=1358618069
dunno about ultra right wing, i wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying fine gael was a centre right party, and that fianna fail was slightly more centrist, but still fairly centre right.
I'd agree with this above.
Sure the unionist/loyalists are right wing, as are the man parties in England.
Sinn Fein these days are more slightly left of centre than most but not left wing. Their 26 county branch may be slightly more left wing than the northern comrades
Only left wingers I can think of are Cuba, n Korea , maybe Russia and those Central American dictatorships- all these left wing governments are dictatorships.
Centre right gov promote commercialism - which is the only show on the planet these days - and is what will unify Ireland. People forget their fight when money is offered, as the unionist/loyalists showed by abandoning their rule to never never never cross the border until the lure of the Celtic tiger proved these principles are easily forgotten.
QuoteCentre right gov promote commercialism - which is the only show on the planet these days - and is what will unify Ireland
.
+1
The basic problem is that SF, who talk most about a United Ireland, haven't the least idea how to bring it about as they are still stuck in handout mode.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 06:23:07 PM
Quoteif you're comfortable with that phrase, has come about because of right wing politics though no?
It has come about because of confused politics. Bertie reckoned he could both cut taxes and increase benefits and that he had discovered the perpetual motion economy.
The modern version of this confusion is that taxing the "wealthy", a relatively small number of people, is some kind of rational substitute for tax on the "ordinary families", which is most people.
Sadly, in Ireland people don't seem in least bit embarrassed about putting forward things that don't add up.
well, that's one way of looking at it. another way is that conservative politics tends to limit taxation and reduce government spending on public services.
we're all a bit of a mixture of capitalist and socialist policies as far as i can see. if we were totally capitalist, there'd be no taxation and no safety net whatsoever. course the other way around, there'd be no free enterprise.
there is, i think, a movement to end universalism in the uk. no more unemployment benefit per se, now you have to prove you are looking for work to qualify for jsa for example. work = ethical and a way out of poverty apparently. shame we don't defend these rights better, as they're hugely needed and socially and economically beneficial if you invest in the right type of industries and manufactoring, but there you go.
i shall vacate the soap box for another of my bredren.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 05:40:46 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 05:36:23 PM
Quotewho might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there
Because you have a username based on a character with a tenuous grasp of reality does not mean that you have to post nonsense.
and could you find a better description for those who drafted the last few budgets Or to describe Dev or the Progressive Democrats. Need I go on
You are completely correct. The last few budgets were written by ultra right wingers.
But very few people seem to know who they actually were.
Here is a clue, they were not Irish.
Quote from: cadence on January 19, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
we're all a bit of a mixture of capitalist and socialist policies as far as i can see. if we were totally capitalist, there'd be no taxation and no safety net whatsoever. course the other way around, there'd be no free enterprise.
there is, i think, a movement to end universalism in the uk. no more unemployment benefit per se, now you have to prove you are looking for work to qualify for jsa for example. work = ethical and a way out of poverty apparently. shame we don't defend these rights better, as they're hugely needed and socially and economically beneficial if you invest in the right type of industries and manufactoring, but there you go.
i shall vacate the soap box for another of my bredren.
When I lived in England I was surrounded by these benefit jockeys who just lived on government handouts. They had little to contribute to society, living in subsidized housing, watching TV all day, or going down to the shopping center to save money on heating bills. The place was always jammed with teenage mothers and their prams, there was literally swarms of them standing about gossiping. I'd overhear them talking on the bus, and their knowledge of the benefit system was impressive. They knew how to milk every last penny out of it. You'd probably have several generations of family (which happens quickly since they get pregnant as soon as they're physically capable of it) with no history or tradition of having a job or earning a living.
I remember thinking the JSA thing was a step in the right direction, but then I started noticing that employers would be complaining about scheduling job interviews that people didn't show up for. So they'd apply for the job and do just the bare minimum to qualify for JSA.
The only way to wean people off the benefit lifestyle is to make work more lucrative than skiving.
Can we get this thread back on track
The thread title needs some editing as it suggests that the union can be saved ... destiny dictates that a United Ireland will be the end result, should it take 25, 50 or 100 years ... the union is on an unstoppable decline, just like colonialism was for the 'Empire'.
Saviour of the Union candidate list below. I'll email them all and ask for their manifestos (manifestoes) asap.
Peter Protestant
Martin McGuinness
The leader of the SDLP (whoever he is)
Jim McAllister (TUV)
Rory McIlroy
Michael McKevitt
Willie Fraser
Bob (man of integrity) McCartney
British Secretary of State (keen shopper and likes shoes)
Micheál Martin
David Cameron
Wee Jeffrey
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 19, 2013, 07:27:44 PM
Quote from: cadence on January 19, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
we're all a bit of a mixture of capitalist and socialist policies as far as i can see. if we were totally capitalist, there'd be no taxation and no safety net whatsoever. course the other way around, there'd be no free enterprise.
there is, i think, a movement to end universalism in the uk. no more unemployment benefit per se, now you have to prove you are looking for work to qualify for jsa for example. work = ethical and a way out of poverty apparently. shame we don't defend these rights better, as they're hugely needed and socially and economically beneficial if you invest in the right type of industries and manufactoring, but there you go.
i shall vacate the soap box for another of my bredren.
When I lived in England I was surrounded by these benefit jockeys who just lived on government handouts. They had little to contribute to society, living in subsidized housing, watching TV all day, or going down to the shopping center to save money on heating bills. The place was always jammed with teenage mothers and their prams, there was literally swarms of them standing about gossiping. I'd overhear them talking on the bus, and their knowledge of the benefit system was impressive. They knew how to milk every last penny out of it. You'd probably have several generations of family (which happens quickly since they get pregnant as soon as they're physically capable of it) with no history or tradition of having a job or earning a living.
I remember thinking the JSA thing was a step in the right direction, but then I started noticing that employers would be complaining about scheduling job interviews that people didn't show up for. So they'd apply for the job and do just the bare minimum to qualify for JSA.
The only way to wean people off the benefit lifestyle is to make work more lucrative than skiving.
agreed. the level of minimum wage needs to be increased. the complicated nature of the welfare benefits and housing and council tax benefit system and law make part time work very difficult to do too. most part time work isn't consistent, even over a period of 6 weeks, which is what they normally take a claimant's average hours for the means test from. from experience, many people who start working part time are so confused by how to calculate their entitlement in relation to the hours they've worked, they end up in debt and in need of housing advice and support by voluntary agencies, paid for through local government supporting people funding, which costs a fair bit, but in no way reaches all those in need of support.
take away traditional industry and manufacturing jobs from people who were once proud of their jobs and their contribution and you end up with a culture of worklessness. and if the tories think they can force people into work by cutting their benefits they're in for a shock. employment is one element of a larger social inclusion problem which isn't something you can put right by forcing onto people by telling them to go to work. it's more complicated than that. if you're a tosser like cameron, you can not give a f**k and take money away from these underclass and let them fend for themselves as much as possible by increasing the poverty gap and taking away the services that people need. the outcomes of social inequalities take time to gestate and come to fruition, they may or may not be in government then, but someone will have to make a decision on how to deal with those outcomes at some point. i'm not overly optimistic, but we'll see.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 07:30:30 PM
Can we get this thread back on track
Oh yes, sorry for the detour.
But the "culture of entitlement" theme is relevant. There's a huge culture of entitlement in the north. It might not come in the form of extravagant welfare benefits, but it comes in the form of public sector busywork and paper pushing jobs. It has to be the most over-governed place I've ever come across. Seems like there's government departments whose names consist of every possible combination of three letters. It seems like every time I open up a local paper there's another story about another worthy cause that got funding from the government (aka the taxpayer).
Weaning the north off that bureaucratic lifestyle is going to take a bit of time.
Got an out-of-office reply from Rory McIlroy saying "busy changing my putter"
Got an out-of-office reply from Peter Protestant saying "out looking the Iris - anyone seen her?"
Got a message from Evil Genius saying "why was I not included?"
Got a reply from Michel Martin saying "I have never saved in the Credit Union. In fact, I dont believe in the concept of Banks"
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on January 19, 2013, 08:20:16 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 07:30:30 PM
Can we get this thread back on track
Oh yes, sorry for the detour.
But the "culture of entitlement" theme is relevant. There's a huge culture of entitlement in the north. It might not come in the form of extravagant welfare benefits, but it comes in the form of public sector busywork and paper pushing jobs. It has to be the most over-governed place I've ever come across. Seems like there's government departments whose names consist of every possible combination of three letters. It seems like every time I open up a local paper there's another story about another worthy cause that got funding from the government (aka the taxpayer).
Weaning the north off that bureaucratic lifestyle is going to take a bit of time.
Wasn't a massive expansion of the public sector what killed the Troubles in the end?
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 05:14:05 PM
If only the loyalist/unionist fraternity could realise, the person who has the best chance of saving the Union is actually John McCallister . His liberal brand of unionism would appeal to a considerable number of moderate nationalists, who might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there, and would be content with the status quo if there was a bit less of the in your face Britishness, in fact the people who Peter Robinson, in his head would like to reach out to but in his heart cannot
Dougal, your head is officially up yer arse!
Ultra right wing politics............................The plot has officially been lost!
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 05:14:05 PM
If only the loyalist/unionist fraternity could realise, the person who has the best chance of saving the Union is actually John McCallister . His liberal brand of unionism would appeal to a considerable number of moderate nationalists, who might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there, and would be content with the status quo if there was a bit less of the in your face Britishness, in fact the people who Peter Robinson, in his head would like to reach out to but in his heart cannot
Somewhere in Armagh, a village is missing an idiot.
Quote from: All of a Sludden on January 19, 2013, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 05:14:05 PM
If only the loyalist/unionist fraternity could realise, the person who has the best chance of saving the Union is actually John McCallister . His liberal brand of unionism would appeal to a considerable number of moderate nationalists, who might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there, and would be content with the status quo if there was a bit less of the in your face Britishness, in fact the people who Peter Robinson, in his head would like to reach out to but in his heart cannot
Somewhere in Armagh, a village is missing an idiot.
I think the first sentence and last part of the second sentence's of Dougal's post is acurate enough. Of course if there was any possibility of it working, then Nationalists first port of call could be Alliance - but Nesbitt and Robinson have torpedoed it.
Quote from: cadence on January 19, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
we're all a bit of a mixture of capitalist and socialist policies as far as i can see. if we were totally capitalist, there'd be no taxation and no safety net whatsoever. course the other way around, there'd be no free enterprise.
there is, i think, a movement to end universalism in the uk. no more unemployment benefit per se, now you have to prove you are looking for work to qualify for jsa for example. work = ethical and a way out of poverty apparently. shame we don't defend these rights better, as they're hugely needed and socially and economically beneficial if you invest in the right type of industries and manufactoring, but there you go.
i shall vacate the soap box for another of my bredren.
You don't have to prove you are looking for work, you could say you looked in the papers for example for jobs.
Quote from: All of a Sludden on January 19, 2013, 09:47:37 PM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 19, 2013, 05:14:05 PM
If only the loyalist/unionist fraternity could realise, the person who has the best chance of saving the Union is actually John McCallister . His liberal brand of unionism would appeal to a considerable number of moderate nationalists, who might be concerned about going into a united Ireland given the ultra right wing politics that exist there, and would be content with the status quo if there was a bit less of the in your face Britishness, in fact the people who Peter Robinson, in his head would like to reach out to but in his heart cannot
Somewhere in Armagh, a village is missing an idiot.
. Fair play to you pal. Youve introduced a lower Newtownards Road logic based argument to this thread. Can I respectfully ask you to explain what you mean, pointing out, of course, that when you resort to insults you lose the argument.
Quote from: seafoid on January 19, 2013, 09:20:41 PM
Wasn't a massive expansion of the public sector what killed the Troubles in the end?
Well that was part of it. But you can't carry that top-heavy public sector into a united Ireland. Something has to replace it as a source of employment.
Quote from: Saffrongael on January 19, 2013, 11:08:29 PM
Quote from: cadence on January 19, 2013, 06:45:36 PM
we're all a bit of a mixture of capitalist and socialist policies as far as i can see. if we were totally capitalist, there'd be no taxation and no safety net whatsoever. course the other way around, there'd be no free enterprise.
there is, i think, a movement to end universalism in the uk. no more unemployment benefit per se, now you have to prove you are looking for work to qualify for jsa for example. work = ethical and a way out of poverty apparently. shame we don't defend these rights better, as they're hugely needed and socially and economically beneficial if you invest in the right type of industries and manufactoring, but there you go.
i shall vacate the soap box for another of my bredren.
You don't have to prove you are looking for work, you could say you looked in the papers for example for jobs.
that doesn't suffice these days. there are steeper demands brought in under the mandatory work activity programme. the days when claimants could say they had a look in the papers are largely gone.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/15/thousands-unemployed-work-without-pay?INTCMP=SRCH
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21140469
Not sure if this is the right place for this post but I could not be bothered hunting for the United Ireland discussion.
Quote from: LeoMc on January 22, 2013, 12:44:35 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-21140469
Not sure if this is the right place for this post but I could not be bothered hunting for the United Ireland discussion.
I'm a bit concerned the DUP might be reading this situation correctly and have outflanked SF on this. The only thing is I would be loath to underestimate SF when it comes to the ballot box.
Won't work this time but gets the ball rolling. Think that is the idea if you ask me.
What happens if it ends in a draw? A penalty shoot out between DUP and SF?
Will they get another pop at this if it doesnt go their road this time (Thats if it happens)
After the first referendum there has to be one every seven years?
There can't be one for another seven years. SF hardly expect a majority in favour of unity. I presume they're just establishing the principle, knowing the unionist parties are unlikely to oppose, given the certainty of defeat for the unity option, but making it less credible for them to oppose any future poll if there is a likelihood of success for the unity proposition.
are postal votes allowed for this?
I'd put mine in...
Quote from: Hardy on January 22, 2013, 02:39:09 PM
There can't be one for another seven years. SF hardly expect a majority in favour of unity. I presume they're just establishing the principle, knowing the unionist parties are unlikely to oppose, given the certainty of defeat for the unity option, but making it less credible for them to oppose any future poll if there is a likelihood of success for the unity proposition.
It will be like a 26 county referendum, keep having them until the correct result, then no going back.
Say for instance the north voted for an UI does the 26 counties simply welcome with open arms or will a vote be need to rectify in free state also?? Would the structures of the Dail be altered? Or would Stormont remain as sub office?? Or this all in the air??
Quote from: front of the mountain on January 23, 2013, 10:58:41 AM
Say for instance the north voted for an UI does the 26 counties simply welcome with open arms or will a vote be need to rectify in free state also?? Would the structures of the Dail be altered? Or would Stormont remain as sub office?? Or this all in the air??
That is why SF want to start the discussion around a UI so that when it does happen we have decided on all those points and the groundwork will be completed for the changes to happen.
Quote from: glens abu on January 23, 2013, 11:24:39 AM
Quote from: front of the mountain on January 23, 2013, 10:58:41 AM
Say for instance the north voted for an UI does the 26 counties simply welcome with open arms or will a vote be need to rectify in free state also?? Would the structures of the Dail be altered? Or would Stormont remain as sub office?? Or this all in the air??
That is why SF want to start the discussion around a UI so that when it does happen we have decided on all those points and the groundwork will be completed for the changes to happen.
There will be some craic with the Fleg protesters then ;D
Quote from: NAG1 on January 23, 2013, 11:30:04 AM
Quote from: glens abu on January 23, 2013, 11:24:39 AM
Quote from: front of the mountain on January 23, 2013, 10:58:41 AM
Say for instance the north voted for an UI does the 26 counties simply welcome with open arms or will a vote be need to rectify in free state also?? Would the structures of the Dail be altered? Or would Stormont remain as sub office?? Or this all in the air??
That is why SF want to start the discussion around a UI so that when it does happen we have decided on all those points and the groundwork will be completed for the changes to happen.
There will be some craic with the Fleg protesters then ;D
Another reason that the DUP should get into the discussions and prepare their voters for this eventuality and not pretend that change will not happen as they have done in the past,the flag being a prime example.
Iron Mike Nesbitt will have a bit of work ahead of him with his Basil McCrea disciplinary hearing for taking a more liberal view on the Flegs issue and then for voting against the party lead the other day in the assembly.
Mike looks to be trying to go more hardline and take on the DUP at their own game, but will he also drive the garden centre unionists into the arms of Alliance???
Quote from: johnneycool on January 23, 2013, 11:42:54 AM
Mike looks to be trying to go more hardline and take on the DUP at their own game, but will he also drive the garden centre unionists into the arms of Alliance???
Never heard that one before. Any particular reason for it or just a general term of abuse for wishy-washy middle class types?
Quote from: cadence on January 19, 2013, 05:54:29 PM
dunno about ultra right wing, i wouldn't have a problem with anyone saying fine gael was a centre right party, and that fianna fail was slightly more centrist, but still fairly centre right.
even the shinners are close to the centre.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 06:35:26 PM
QuoteCentre right gov promote commercialism - which is the only show on the planet these days - and is what will unify Ireland
.
+1
The basic problem is that SF, who talk most about a United Ireland, haven't the least idea how to bring it about as they are still stuck in handout mode.
They need to start discussions with other nationalists on the Island as to what a united Ireland would look like. How will it pay for itself, what happens to the NHS, Dole in the South, Unionists British Heritage, the union flag, the assembly. Is it a federal Ireland, a 32 county republic, or other. what is our relationship with Britain.
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2013, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 06:35:26 PM
QuoteCentre right gov promote commercialism - which is the only show on the planet these days - and is what will unify Ireland
.
+1
The basic problem is that SF, who talk most about a United Ireland, haven't the least idea how to bring it about as they are still stuck in handout mode.
They need to start discussions with other nationalists on the Island as to what a united Ireland would look like. How will it pay for itself, what happens to the NHS, Dole in the South, Unionists British Heritage, the union flag, the assembly. Is it a federal Ireland, a 32 county republic, or other. what is our relationship with Britain.
Exactly. And that echos what the SDLP said this morning on the radio.
Quote from: deiseach on January 23, 2013, 11:54:08 AM
Quote from: johnneycool on January 23, 2013, 11:42:54 AM
Mike looks to be trying to go more hardline and take on the DUP at their own game, but will he also drive the garden centre unionists into the arms of Alliance???
Never heard that one before. Any particular reason for it or just a general term of abuse for wishy-washy middle class types?
Fairly standard term here, never saw it as a term of abuse, just the opposite in fact. The middle class protestant who sees themselves as Northern Irish / Ulsterish(!), who are not too sure about the Alliance party but want nothing to do with the rabble rousing, flag waving sectarian Unionist parties on offer and who will head off to the garden centre rather than vote for them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/3190894.stm
Quote from: LeoMc on January 23, 2013, 01:10:42 PM
Fairly standard term here, never saw it as a term of abuse, just the opposite in fact. The middle class protestant who sees themselves as Northern Irish / Ulsterish(!), who are not too sure about the Alliance party but want nothing to do with the rabble rousing, flag waving sectarian Unionist parties on offer and who will head off to the garden centre rather than vote for them.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/politics_show/3190894.stm
Good stuff, thanks for the insight.
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2013, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 06:35:26 PM
QuoteCentre right gov promote commercialism - which is the only show on the planet these days - and is what will unify Ireland
.
+1
The basic problem is that SF, who talk most about a United Ireland, haven't the least idea how to bring it about as they are still stuck in handout mode.
They need to start discussions with other nationalists on the Island as to what a united Ireland would look like. How will it pay for itself, what happens to the NHS, Dole in the South, Unionists British Heritage, the union flag, the assembly. Is it a federal Ireland, a 32 county republic, or other. what is our relationship with Britain.
That is what they are trying to do but you would think that the other parties on this island who claim to be UI parties would be rushing to get into this type of discussion.They don't appear that interested. :o
http://youtu.be/YbKnPOt211w
SINN FÉIN President Gerry Adams TD, speaking on Saturday at a conference in Dublin, calls for a border poll to be held under the terms of the Good Friday Agreement in the next term of the Assembly and Oireachtas.
In a wide ranging speech the Sinn Féin leader says:
•The Good Friday Agreement states, "that it is for the people of the island of Ireland alone, by agreement between the two parts respectively and without external impediment, to exercise their right of self-determination on the basis of consent, freely and concurrently given, North and South, to bring about a united Ireland, if that is their wish, accepting that this right must be achieved and exercised with and subject to the agreement and consent of a majority of the people" in the north of Ireland.
•The Good Friday Agreement also commits the British government to holding a border poll and London has undertaken to legislate for a united Ireland if a majority of those voting express a wish that the north should cease to be part of the British union.
•It is time for the governments to set a date.
•We will be looking for the referendum in the next term of the Assembly and Oireachtas.
The Sinn Fein leader addresses the issue of political geography of the North.
•The northern state was gerrymandered to allow for a permanent unionist two thirds majority.
•But the census figures published in December reveal that only 40% of citizens there stated that they had a British only identity.
•A quarter (25%) stated that they had an Irish only identity and just over a fifth (21%) had a Northern Irish only identity.
•That's 46% of citizens consciously opting for some form of Irish only identity.
•The political and demographic landscape in the north is changing.
Commenting on the issue of identities and traditions Gerry Adams says:
•We want to hear what unionists have to say.
•We must use every opportunity to engage in dialogue at a personal level as well as in more formal ways.
•Protect all citizens, including rigorously and unequivocally seeking to protect all identities and traditions.
•Like the Good Friday Agreement we are for the "principles of full respect for, and equality of, civil, political, social and cultural rights, of freedom from discrimination for all citizens, and of parity of esteem and of just and equal treatment for the identity, ethos, and aspirations of both communities ..."
•The Agreement also guarantees in the event of a united Ireland that the right of those who define themselves as British will not be affected.
Quote from: glens abu on January 23, 2013, 02:03:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 23, 2013, 12:04:55 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 19, 2013, 06:35:26 PM
QuoteCentre right gov promote commercialism - which is the only show on the planet these days - and is what will unify Ireland
.
+1
The basic problem is that SF, who talk most about a United Ireland, haven't the least idea how to bring it about as they are still stuck in handout mode.
They need to start discussions with other nationalists on the Island as to what a united Ireland would look like. How will it pay for itself, what happens to the NHS, Dole in the South, Unionists British Heritage, the union flag, the assembly. Is it a federal Ireland, a 32 county republic, or other. what is our relationship with Britain.
That is what they are trying to do but you would think that the other parties on this island who claim to be UI parties would be rushing to get into this type of discussion.They don't appear that interested. :o
No they are not, the debate is solely going on around the poll. Before we get to that stage there is a lot of ground work needs doing.
You have to laugh at Gerry trying to claim those with a 'Northern Irish' identity when neither he nor his fellow party members can even say Northern Ireland.
QuoteYou have to laugh at Gerry trying to claim those with a 'Northern Irish' identity when neither he nor his fellow party members can even say Northern Ireland.
The census is obviously biased when it did not allow for things like North of Ireland identity and Nordie.
I see David McClarty is floating the idea of forming a moderate unionist party.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on January 25, 2013, 12:52:05 AM
I see David McClarty is floating the idea of forming a moderate unionist party.
Why don't they just join Alliance? Trevor Ringland and Basil McCrea and them boys would be a perfect fit.
Trevor Ringland is a member of the Conservative Party these days ( though that may change before the day is out!). I see Reg Empey is now pedalling the lie that unionist minded people who vote Alliance are now imperilling the Union.
Always wondered why Dobbies and B and Q were jam packed during polling days ;D
http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/usercertificate.php?id=31034952&qid=461812&uname=Willie%20Fraser (http://www.proprofs.com/quiz-school/usercertificate.php?id=31034952&qid=461812&uname=Willie%20Fraser)
Quote from: Applesisapples on January 24, 2013, 02:57:38 PM
No they are not, the debate is solely going on around the poll. Before we get to that stage there is a lot of ground work needs doing.
dont know about a lot of ground needing to be covered just yet.
I think these things will work themeselves out in the longer term, right before reunification.
the Economy in the south/jobs etc will be lucrative for those in the north with ever decreasing british gov funding. the longer this goes on, the less people will have to lose and will accept whatever 'offer' is given to them at the time.
The British gov has not really started their economic/jobs withdrawal just yet, but it cant be far away.
ideally the south will improve certain things like health servie- did I hear inda kinny and fg say they wanted to bring a free health service into play in the south ? I dont think thats happening even if some crazed election promise. sure the hoor cant even deliver the promisory notes deal - and its been on a plate for months...
for all those (not mentioning certain SF supporters) who slag off the southern economy, well its only the bank deal thats hankering the full recovery now. plenty of businesses are booming down here.OK many have left our shores, but there are still loads of jobs for the educated...
If a reunification was on the doorstep, then I'd fear that free health service would be phased out.
the dole might go down also.
not sure how a lot of the northern contingent would survive without these makey uppy jobs and boards up there.
but as most of these employed by these schemes are educated, their skills are somewhat transferrable.
NI is to be honest very much a false economy of a place and a union would I fear highlight this dramatically. A few things would have to be looked at:
- NHS - how will that work?
- General infrastructure owned by the government (e.g. water). How is that transferred over?
A large proportion of the people of NI are employed by the civil service. Now where do all those jobs go? Are there requirements for all those jobs? Take departments like the CSA - how do the south do such things?
Per capita has NI not got the highest civil service employment rate - and by a long way? They are to some degree funding NI with civil service jobs I'd have thought?
Then you have to consider the funding bodies - e.g. Invest NI. If Ireland becomes one entity from a government viewpoint then how does InvestNI exist? Does it cover the whole country and thus less is invested in NI and more across the board? Or where do these "peace" funds go in general?
It has to be considered that a lot of jobs, particularly tech jobs, coming into NI are being heavily funded by Invest NI.If that goes or gets weakend there are bad times.
Where do the PSNI then go is another factor?
Also there is the fact that there are people who would go to war before seeing a united ireland and there would be a bloodbath.
How quickly would Britain release us is another factor.
The list could go on.
You'd nearly think it would happen tomorrow reading some comments... I wouldn't expect to see this in my lifetime or probably for another couple of generations at least. Million miles away.
Quote from: camanchero on January 28, 2013, 05:11:37 PM
The British gov has not really started their economic/jobs withdrawal just yet, but it cant be far away.
What is this opinion based on? Have they started at all, and what makes this action imminent?
Willie Frazer Blasted into Space shocker!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21230691 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-21230691)
Afterwards, a jubilant Mr Frazer said "As I accelerated into space my thoughts were with the victims of IRA violence and juicy ripe bananas"
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on January 29, 2013, 07:20:53 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 28, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
Per capita has NI not got the highest civil service employment rate - and by a long way? They are to some degree funding NI with civil service jobs I'd have thought?
It's hard to get firm figures, but the general percentage of public sector employment in NI I believe, while the highest as a region in the UK is not absurdly ahead of quite a lot of Britain. There's also calculating as to whose job counts as public or private, for example in NI Translink are a state-run company for public transport and its employees fall into the public bracket, and in the last number of years it has gone though moderate peaks of profits and losses. Whereas in Britain, the only public transport company still in public hands is Transport for London, elsewhere bus and train services are run in private hands - yet that still doesn't stop them getting a sh*tload of subsidies from Westminster each year, but these employees are classed as private.
One article I've read suggests that in places like Northern Ireland it isn't so much in being dependent on the public sector for employment, but rather that the private sector is fairly weak, whereby public sector employment deployed across the UK is fairly evenly distributed in terms of service provision e.g. health and education being two of the biggest, but private sector employment is spread disproportionally - though you could say that within the UK as a whole a lot of this is down to the governments in Westminster developing economic policy focused on London & SE England at the expense of elsewhere. How such a scenario concerning current-day NI would affect it in a theoretical future 32-county united Ireland is speculative.
Away from the UK, public sector employment as a percentage of the work force is still fairly significant in the likes of Germany, Sweden, Norway and France. Nearly as high as NI in a good load of cases.
Connacht is heavily marginalised within the 26 county Republic, even with a Western Taoiseach and Tainiste (that makes no difference, and so it should be). If the 6 counties were to join, I see this being further compounded. There is a danger in my opinion that Connacht voters may see the province further isolated withing a larger Irish state as a factor when they come to vote. Regional government may not only be a deal breaker for the people of the North but also the people of the West.
Mayo, how would you vote if a 'border poll' were to be called in the 26?
Quote from: Franko on January 29, 2013, 10:25:37 AM
Mayo, how would you vote if a 'border poll' were to be called in the 26?
I'd vote yes except if it involved the Republic joining the U.K. or becoming a 32 county Kingdom of Ireland. I don't hace a vote anymore and would not do so until I have that right again. Even in 32 county Rep. U would push for Connacht statehood in any confederation or federation.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 29, 2013, 08:54:52 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on January 29, 2013, 07:20:53 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on January 28, 2013, 05:25:57 PM
Per capita has NI not got the highest civil service employment rate - and by a long way? They are to some degree funding NI with civil service jobs I'd have thought?
It's hard to get firm figures, but the general percentage of public sector employment in NI I believe, while the highest as a region in the UK is not absurdly ahead of quite a lot of Britain. There's also calculating as to whose job counts as public or private, for example in NI Translink are a state-run company for public transport and its employees fall into the public bracket, and in the last number of years it has gone though moderate peaks of profits and losses. Whereas in Britain, the only public transport company still in public hands is Transport for London, elsewhere bus and train services are run in private hands - yet that still doesn't stop them getting a sh*tload of subsidies from Westminster each year, but these employees are classed as private.
One article I've read suggests that in places like Northern Ireland it isn't so much in being dependent on the public sector for employment, but rather that the private sector is fairly weak, whereby public sector employment deployed across the UK is fairly evenly distributed in terms of service provision e.g. health and education being two of the biggest, but private sector employment is spread disproportionally - though you could say that within the UK as a whole a lot of this is down to the governments in Westminster developing economic policy focused on London & SE England at the expense of elsewhere. How such a scenario concerning current-day NI would affect it in a theoretical future 32-county united Ireland is speculative.
Away from the UK, public sector employment as a percentage of the work force is still fairly significant in the likes of Germany, Sweden, Norway and France. Nearly as high as NI in a good load of cases.
Connacht is heavily marginalised within the 26 county Republic, even with a Western Taoiseach and Tainiste (that makes no difference, and so it should be). If the 6 counties were to join, I see this being further compounded. There is a danger in my opinion that Connacht voters may see the province further isolated withing a larger Irish state as a factor when they come to vote. Regional government may not only be a deal breaker for the people of the North but also the people of the West.
If you are suggesting Connacht people might vote against a 32 county Ireland on the basis of their own marginalisation, you are nuts.
Quote from: Puckoon on January 28, 2013, 05:28:37 PM
Quote from: camanchero on January 28, 2013, 05:11:37 PM
The British gov has not really started their economic/jobs withdrawal just yet, but it cant be far away.
What is this opinion based on? Have they started at all, and what makes this action imminent?
dont think any real move to transfer jobs etc has ben started yet.
my opinion is formed from hearing occasional comments from british politicians and from declarations from british politicians from over 30 years ago that they would prefer to move out of he north of Ireland but just cannot until there is a referendum that they can use to do so.
the more that britain gets into financial difficulty, the more they will look for solutions such as this...
thats all really. but it makes sense and financial sense too - but then again sense isnt always applied to the north of Ireland...
also - I'd think a lot of southern Irish people would vote against reunification presently. The northern brethren (taigs) have peed a lot off down here, let alone how people look at the unionist/loyalist mentality !
I don't think Jude Collins believes that this man can save the Union.
Is Mike Nesbitt a bit mad? Does he spend his evenings threading daisies in his hair and claiming to be the reincarnation of one of the Wooden-tops? I doubt it. But at the same time there are different kinds of madness and different degrees of madness, and I'm beginning to think Mike may need, um, help.
Consider if you will his political path. Having assumed the UUP leadership, he's been casting around for an issue that'd give his party credibility. So far he's been spectacularly unsuccessful. Which is a pity, really, because Mike clearly wants to be seen as a moderate, rational sort of unionist, one who eschews the flag-waving, croppies-lie-down approach to things. It's also a fact that he's perhaps the first leader of the UUP not to be an Orangeman (there is no evidence either way on Edward Carson). And he's a graduate of Cambridge University.
So when a golden opportunity to present unionism's case to the people who most need to hear it - republicans - became available at the Shinners' Europa conference last Friday, you'd think Mike would have leapt at the chance. Uh-uh. First it was yes, then it was no. Instead Mike backed into the unthreatening arms of the Belfast Telegraph. There he explained how if we got our past right, we'd be in a key position to make progress with the future.
Spot on, Mike. So what about the past? What's called for?
Well, Mike sees any fruitful future dependent on one thing: that republicans concede publicly that their campaign of "terrorist murder" was unnecessary to get to where we are today, and that they should apologise for what they've done. Or to put it another way, the best way for two antagonists to make peace is for one of them to admit he was totally to blame for everything.
The interesting thing is, I was at the Sinn Féin conference and do you know, none of the unionists who spoke, either from the floor or in the group sessions, mentioned the need for republicans to take all the blame. In fact they seemed much more focused on the future, on unionists finding a secure place in a world where nobody seemed to want them - not Britain and not the south of Ireland either. What they wanted, they said, was people sitting down and presenting a clear articulation of the advantages of the union, and ditto from those who believe in a united Ireland.
That struck me as an eminently sane approach and sharply divergent from the UUP leader's position. Which would suggest that Mike might, despite being smart and having been to Cambridge, be a bit out of touch with the real world. Which is madness of a sort, isn't it? Or maybe he's been out in the sun too long. Posted by Jude Collins at 12:13:00 pm
I'm not so sure Mike is out of touch on this. It is a common thread with all Unionists that the troubles started in 1969 and it was themuns that did it.
Yes, one of the barriers to progress here is that for a large number of Unionists (of all shades) the "war" is still going on...in their heads.