now boys lets be having you. names and reasons why you think such and such was a great political "LEADER" not politician. just getting elected doesnt make you great since the reasons for getting into power in the 26 range from getting a site passed to being a good hurler or getting the bin emptied. someone who has actually made ireland a better place who didnt get your cousin a cosy job on the council or didnt attend 500 funerals
Quote from: lawnseed on January 13, 2013, 11:25:19 PM
now boys lets be having you. names and reasons why you think such and such was a great political "LEADER" not politician. just getting elected doesnt make you great since the reasons for getting into power in the 26 range from getting a site passed to being a good hurler or getting the bin emptied. someone who has actually made ireland a better place who didnt get your cousin a cosy job on the council or didnt attend 500 funerals
Politics and power corrupts. Have never voted because of the aforementioned statement and because the two governments in our island our illegal.
Brian Cody.
Jack Charlton
Quote from: theticklemister on January 13, 2013, 11:28:10 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 13, 2013, 11:25:19 PM
now boys lets be having you. names and reasons why you think such and such was a great political "LEADER" not politician. just getting elected doesnt make you great since the reasons for getting into power in the 26 range from getting a site passed to being a good hurler or getting the bin emptied. someone who has actually made ireland a better place who didnt get your cousin a cosy job on the council or didnt attend 500 funerals
Politics and power corrupts. Have never voted because of the aforementioned statement and because the two governments in our island our illegal.
Nothing illegal about the Irish government in Dublin.
Steve staunton
Eoin O'Duffy,
Joking
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2013/0114/1224328803542.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2013/0114/1224328803542.html)
The Irish Times - Monday, January 14, 2013
Flag-flying furore suggests unionists don't know when they have won
In this section »
Paying for tribunals
Publish and be damned
RICHARD IRVINE
Opinion: Within a week of the 1994 IRA ceasefire, graffiti on the loyalist Shankill Road declared, "The Protestant People of West Belfast accept the unconditional surrender of the IRA."
The writer may have been premature and tongue-in-cheek, but the Belfast Agreement, IRA decommissioning and the participation of former IRA leaders in the partitionist parliament at Stormont, all bear out the truth of that writing on the wall.
Like it or not, the unionists won the long war. They have not only secured Northern Ireland's future within the UK for the conceivable future, but remarkably gained republican acquiescence to it.
In signing up to the Belfast Agreement, the republican leadership acknowledged not only that the unionist veto on an all-Ireland exists, but that it has the right to exist.
Unfortunately though, in the zero-sum politics of Northern Ireland, no one bothered to tell the unionist people that they won. Instead, the colourless leaders of unionism have spoken only concessions and perceived concessions.
Quietly however, unionist leaders do acknowledge their victory. Speaking to the London Times in 2011, First Minister Peter Robinson was upbeat about Northern Ireland's future in the UK:
"I think the more stable our structure, the more peaceful Northern Ireland is, the more it works as part of the UK, then the more people will think, 'Why on earth would we change?'"
Robinson, of course, is correct. And recent opinion polls suggest the majority of Northern Ireland residents, both Catholics and Protestants, favour the province remaining within the UK. So what is the disruption about?
Well, from the unionist perspective, an unfortunate consequence of the current new inclusive Northern Ireland is that is has to be new and inclusive. The unionists may have won, but for some the perception is that they lost.
Sinn Féin, while not aggressively pushing Irish unity – it's a political non-starter – has instead pushed the agenda of shared space and parity of esteem. Something which means the greening of the orange state and the de-politicising of shared spaces.
Irritatingly, the unionists just don't get how wimpish this campaign is, nor how what was once a radical, Marxist, armed revolutionary movement is only too happy to acknowledge the Britishness of its fellow Irish citizens while its leaders meet the queen, administer British rule and vote to fly the union flag over Belfast City Hall on designated days.
In fact the magnitude of the unionist victory is not only unchallenged by these Sinn Féin tactics, rather it is underscored. Unionists should be delighted that republicans have so little ambition that they can achieve only small and compromised symbolic victories like the flag-lowering.
The real danger then to unionism's triumph comes not from republicanism, not even dissident republicanism, but from themselves. In this crisis, with loyalist protesters and rioters holding much of the province to ransom, unionists are again metaphorically and literally rallying around the flag. This is not just mistaken, it is silly and dangerous too.
Yet perhaps, just perhaps, the newly established Unionist Forum will find the courage to admit that unionism has won.
Perhaps then it can articulate a new confident vision of unionism, one which dispenses with the ideology of not an inch and makes room for the hybrid Irish and British and unionist citizen. If it can do this then the victory really will be complete.
On the other hand though, "No surrender!" does have a ring to it.
* Richard Irvine is a part-time lecturer in history at Queen's University Belfast
Brian Cody.
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Whataboutery?!
John Maughan
John Hume.
Too many reasons for me to list out why except to say that in 2010 the irish public voted in an RTE poll pretty much the same as your title question, and the winner was John Hume
Dustin the Turkey.
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Whataboutery?!
What sort of a leader would be acceptable to you Nally stand ?
Give us a few of your criteria.
Quote from: God14 on January 14, 2013, 10:00:40 AM
John Hume.
Too many reasons for me to list out why except to say that in 2010 the irish public voted in an RTE poll pretty much the same as your title question, and the winner was John Hume
The thread title may be misleading but in the opening post he states that he is talking about leaders who got into power in the 26 counties.
As an aside, while John Hume did a lot of good work, and opposed internment in 1971, I always remember the account of senior Irish diplomat David Neligan, revealed in papers released under the 30 year rule, in which he said that in 1979
"His (Mr Hume's) thoughts were evidently running towards the idea of internment as a solution to the IRA violence. The authorities could publish names of suspected members of illegal organisations and require them to announce publicly that they had severed all connections with those bodies or, alternatively, be interned. In this and other respects Mr Hume's ideas to cope with the immediate grave situation did not seem to have been fully thought through."An another aside, Stephen Gately came in the top ten in that poll too didn't he??!
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 10:50:37 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Whataboutery?!
What sort of a leader would be acceptable to you Nally stand ?
Give us a few of your criteria.
Someone who isn't it it for their own self gain, basically. Who made it to where they are because of their commitment to their country rather than to brown envelopes. Someone who treats Ireland as a 32 county nation rather than a 26 county one and would ensure that people can vote for his/her party in every one of the 32 counties, rather than just in 26 of them.
P.s. For someone that's busy asking questions on this thread, you have yet to give your answer to the opening post!
Joe Higgins
Sean Lemass
T. K. Whitaker
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 10:50:37 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Whataboutery?!
What sort of a leader would be acceptable to you Nally stand ?
Give us a few of your criteria.
Someone who isn't it it for their own self gain, basically. Who made it to where they are because of their commitment to their country rather than to brown envelopes. Someone who treats Ireland as a 32 county nation rather than a 26 county one and would ensure that people can vote for his/her party in every one of the 32 counties, rather than just in 26 of them.
P.s. For someone that's busy asking questions on this thread, you have yet to give your answer to the opening post!
I would say Lemass was the best
32 county votes only work with 32 county taxes and Norn Irn tax only pays for 3 counties at the minute.
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 10:50:37 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Whataboutery?!
What sort of a leader would be acceptable to you Nally stand ?
Give us a few of your criteria.
Someone who isn't it it for their own self gain, basically. Who made it to where they are because of their commitment to their country rather than to brown envelopes. Someone who treats Ireland as a 32 county nation rather than a 26 county one and would ensure that people can vote for his/her party in every one of the 32 counties, rather than just in 26 of them.
P.s. For someone that's busy asking questions on this thread, you have yet to give your answer to the opening post!
I would say Lemass was the best
32 county votes only work with 32 county taxes and Norn Irn tax only pays for 3 counties at the minute.
There's already one party which stands in all 32 counties. No use having a leader talking about being a leader of
"the republican party" or leader of
"the All-Ireland Party" while only functioning as a party in 26 counties. My ideal leader would ensure his party would function right across "the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally".
Paul Hewson
*i'll get my coat
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 12:44:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 12:36:28 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 11:09:38 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 10:50:37 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 09:28:57 AM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 09:25:03 AM
Lawnseed
Can you give an example of a great leader from another small post colonial country who was in charge over the last 80 years?
Whataboutery?!
What sort of a leader would be acceptable to you Nally stand ?
Give us a few of your criteria.
Someone who isn't it it for their own self gain, basically. Who made it to where they are because of their commitment to their country rather than to brown envelopes. Someone who treats Ireland as a 32 county nation rather than a 26 county one and would ensure that people can vote for his/her party in every one of the 32 counties, rather than just in 26 of them.
P.s. For someone that's busy asking questions on this thread, you have yet to give your answer to the opening post!
I would say Lemass was the best
32 county votes only work with 32 county taxes and Norn Irn tax only pays for 3 counties at the minute.
There's already one party which stands in all 32 counties. No use having a leader talking about being a leader of "the republican party" or leader of "the All-Ireland Party" while only functioning as a party in 26 counties. My ideal leader would ensure his party would function right across "the whole nation and of all its parts, cherishing all the children of the nation equally".
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Quote from: Tubberman on January 14, 2013, 12:22:00 PM
Sean Lemass
Didn't he start the Fianna Fail before Ireland mentality of Fianna Fail.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
People who emigrated last week looking for work aren't allowed to vote in Dail elections , NS.
So it's not just youse.
What would a TD for Aontraim Theas do anyway ? I mean practically.
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
uncanny resemblance.
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
People who emigrated last week looking for work aren't allowed to vote in Dail elections , NS.
So it's not just youse.
What would a TD for Aontraim Theas do anyway ? I mean practically.
You're missing my point...there couldn't be a TD for Antrim, as Ireland isn't reunited yet. Nothing to stop members of FF (
aka 'The Republican Party') or members of FG (
aka 'The United Ireland Party') from standing to become MLA's though, is there?
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
People who emigrated last week looking for work aren't allowed to vote in Dail elections , NS.
So it's not just youse.
What would a TD for Aontraim Theas do anyway ? I mean practically.
You're missing my point...there couldn't be a TD for Antrim, as Ireland isn't reunited yet. Nothing to stop members of FF (aka 'The Republican Party') or members of FG (aka 'The United Ireland Party') from standing to become MLA's though, is there?
Wouldn't that just be a rehash of the fermanagh/south Tyrone problem- for years the nationalist vote was split and the Unionist got the seat
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
People who emigrated last week looking for work aren't allowed to vote in Dail elections , NS.
So it's not just youse.
What would a TD for Aontraim Theas do anyway ? I mean practically.
You're missing my point...there couldn't be a TD for Antrim, as Ireland isn't reunited yet. Nothing to stop members of FF (aka 'The Republican Party') or members of FG (aka 'The United Ireland Party') from standing to become MLA's though, is there?
Wouldn't that just be a rehash of the fermanagh/south Tyrone problem- for years the nationalist vote was split and the Unionist got the seat
Do you believe that's the reason why FG and FF have
never stood in the north?
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 02:15:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 02:09:59 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:42:48 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 01:31:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 01:18:37 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 14, 2013, 01:09:51 PM
I'm guessing you are talking about the 6 county party SF actively trying to destroy our Republic. SF are nothing more than a Greek Horse from the North trying to impose their Northcentric cult.
Is it just me or does above post bear a striking resemblance to the sort of hate filled, paranoid type of language that loyalists have been spouting for the last few weeks? :o "Shin Feyin are tryin for til distroy us so thay are!!"
People who emigrated last week looking for work aren't allowed to vote in Dail elections , NS.
So it's not just youse.
What would a TD for Aontraim Theas do anyway ? I mean practically.
You're missing my point...there couldn't be a TD for Antrim, as Ireland isn't reunited yet. Nothing to stop members of FF (aka 'The Republican Party') or members of FG (aka 'The United Ireland Party') from standing to become MLA's though, is there?
Wouldn't that just be a rehash of the fermanagh/south Tyrone problem- for years the nationalist vote was split and the Unionist got the seat
Do you believe that's the reason why FG and FF have never stood in the north?
When the wee 6 statelet was formed there was no FF and no FG. In the 30s they wouldn't have been allowed in.
Same through until the 90s probably.
The latest developments are interesting. I think Tyrone and Armagh winning all Irelands is highly significant. It is as if catholic NI is over the trauma of partitition and has its gander up and then you have the census with the numbers of catholics up close to 50% . I would say anything can happen from now on. I wouldn't rule out the 32 counties yet.
Re the fuball Cavan with 30 ulster titles between partition and the start of the troubles is a sign of how depressed the 6 counties were in the years post partition. Cavan were good, no doubt but if Ireland had never been partitioned there is no way they would have won so many provincial titles over that period.
What about the 3 all-irelands won by '6 county' teams in the early 90's?
Quote from: Franko on January 14, 2013, 03:09:00 PM
What about the 3 all-irelands won by '6 county' teams in the early 90's?
That as well. But Tyrone were the ones that Kerry couldn't beat.
Down started it all of course.
I'd say over the next 50 years the 6 counties will win more all Irelands than they did in the last 50 years.
It's a good question and sadly a hard one to come up with many to make a strong case for. I'd probably side with John Hume, can't think of anyone better at the present. His central role in the peace process, something which has made a massive difference to all people on the island, has been well documented but I think in general he tried to do what he thought was right even if it wasn't popular.
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 04:01:58 PM
Down started it all of course.
Would it be too strong to say that Down's All-Ireland wins in the 60's were the harbinger of the Troubles that were to follow? They certainly spoke of greater assertiveness from the Taigs north of the border. Whether they were the symptom or the cause of this assertiveness, I don't know. But things were definitely different in the North after them.
Quote from: deiseach on January 14, 2013, 04:54:02 PM
Quote from: seafoid on January 14, 2013, 04:01:58 PM
Down started it all of course.
Would it be too strong to say that Down's All-Ireland wins in the 60's were the harbinger of the Troubles that were to follow? They certainly spoke of greater assertiveness from the Taigs north of the border. Whether they were the symptom or the cause of this assertiveness, I don't know. But things were definitely different in the North after them.
Aye Down were the lads...........................................................................rule 21 ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ??? ??? ??? :( :( :( ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
You still playing 21 aside Tickle? :D
Nothing like staying mired in the past eh?
Ireland couldn't have had a political leader since partition as there was no political entity for all Ireland.( I know Nally has given us so many hints to say Gerry Adams but really...... even a SF stooge knows he doesn't fit the bill.. )
As I have no interest in rubby -- I suppose it has to be Anthony Tohill.
Whats this thread called again...
most posts here have no relevance to its title
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
You still playing 21 aside Tickle? :D
Nothing like staying mired in the past eh?
Ireland couldn't have had a political leader since partition as there was no political entity for all Ireland.( I know Nally has given us so many hints to say Gerry Adams but really...... even a SF stooge knows he doesn't fit the bill.. )
As I have no interest in rubby -- I suppose it has to be Anthony Tohill.
I'd follow the big man before any of the rest I can tell ye!
Christy Moore (a big part in popularising our traditional music forms, plus bringing some issues into an international context)
Cardinal O'Fiaich (stood up to Maggie, all round nice guy and was from a wee place in the south; Armagh)
Paudi O'Shea (who didn't want to emulate him?)
Michael O'Leary; didn't he called Mary a basket case. (Business success, speaks his mind, doesn't stick his head in the sand)
Mary Robinson (another All Ireland for County Down; and Antrim, emphasised the diaspora and talked to the wee orange men)
Ah well, in that case, Larry Gogan.
TK Whitaker
Quote from: Hardy on January 14, 2013, 05:44:21 PM
Ah well, in that case, Larry Gogan.
Why Larry Gogan?
John Hume.
Mary Robinson abandoned her post and "her people" as soon as an opportunity arose.
FFS lads wat are ye on about linking football titles to the Troubles. Down's win in '61 as a harbinger of the Troubles? That's ridiculous, the troubles started in response to a campaign of violence and intimidation initiated by the ruling protestant classes after the civil rights demonstrations. To say that Down's AI victory was a compelling factor in the dawn of the troubles displays a shocking disrespect to the people who suffered for years under the yoke of British oppression. I can recall several stories that involve my grandparents and also my parents, stories of segregation, discrimination and sectarianism, and I know they would be insulted to think that people today consider Down winning an AI championship a notable event in the dawning of the Troubles.
One half of Jedward.
Quote from: trileacman on January 14, 2013, 06:01:32 PM
John Hume.
Mary Robinson abandoned her post and "her people" as soon as an opportunity arose.
FFS lads wat are ye on about linking football titles to the Troubles. Down's win in '61 as a harbinger of the Troubles? That's ridiculous, the troubles started in response to a campaign of violence and intimidation initiated by the ruling protestant classes after the civil rights demonstrations. To say that Down's AI victory was a compelling factor in the dawn of the troubles displays a shocking disrespect to the people who suffered for years under the yoke of British oppression. I can recall several stories that involve my grandparents and also my parents, stories of segregation, discrimination and sectarianism, and I know they would be insulted to think that people today consider Down winning an AI championship a notable event in the dawning of the Troubles.
The Loyalists thought the men from the Mourne county kidnapped a Protestant called Samuel Maguire from south of the border and thats how the troubles started. So I was toul anyway.
Quote from: ardal on January 14, 2013, 05:48:58 PM
Quote from: Hardy on January 14, 2013, 05:44:21 PM
Ah well, in that case, Larry Gogan.
Why Larry Gogan?
Well, he's always stuck at his job, for one thing.
No mention of DeValera?
Love him or loath him, its hard to think of many who were more influential in the short history of the Republic. We're thankfully moving on from his vision of Irish life, but that does not negate his massive influence over the progress of Irish society.
Quote from: J70 on January 14, 2013, 07:06:23 PM
No mention of DeValera?
Love him or loath him, its hard to think of many who were more influential in the short history of the Republic. We're thankfully moving on from his vision of Irish life, but that does not negate his massive influence over the progress of Irish society.
The thread is about greatest not most influential. Dev hung more republicans than the British did during his time, so I certainly wouldn't call him great. Far far from it.
jim mcguinness
Quote from: ballinaman on January 14, 2013, 12:57:44 PM
Paul Hewson
*i'll get my coat
whats your hurry-Heres your hat!
T.K.Whittaker
Sean Lemass
Mary Mc Aleese
Quote from: God14 on January 14, 2013, 10:00:40 AM
John Hume.
Too many reasons for me to list out why except to say that in 2010 the irish public voted in an RTE poll pretty much the same as your title question, and the winner was John Hume
SWEET JEEZ READ THE THREAD
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 07:14:18 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 14, 2013, 07:06:23 PM
No mention of DeValera?
Love him or loath him, its hard to think of many who were more influential in the short history of the Republic. We're thankfully moving on from his vision of Irish life, but that does not negate his massive influence over the progress of Irish society.
The thread is about greatest not most influential. Dev hung more republicans than the British did during his time, so I certainly wouldn't call him great. Far far from it.
As the chorus of the song '
De Valera' goes........
'He was loved, he was hated, he was cherished, he was despised;
There were rivers of tears when the chieftian he died
But love him or hate him I cannot decide,
What to make about Dev, a man of our time.'
I personality hated him.
History has an awful way of repeating itself in Ireland. Collins sold the land out when he got into power; Dev was against him. Then Dev got into power; he hung Republicans. Sinn Fein and the IRA not in power fought a war; SF got into power and sold out their Republican ideals.
Quote from: ardal on January 14, 2013, 05:40:33 PM
Mary Robinson (another All Ireland for County Down; and Antrim, emphasised the diaspora and talked to the wee orange men)
Ehhhh ?
Mary Robinson was a rhubarb ( Mayo). Daughter of a well heeled doctor.
Mary McAleese was the daughter of a plain Ros man and was born in Belfast and lived there as far as I'm aware until the family were burned out by their lovely neighbours ( Another of their cultural traditions )
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 14, 2013, 04:44:35 PM
It's a good question and sadly a hard one to come up with many to make a strong case for. I'd probably side with John Hume, can't think of anyone better at the present. His central role in the peace process, something which has made a massive difference to all people on the island, has been well documented but I think in general he tried to do what he thought was right even if it wasn't popular.
26 counties only seanie
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
You still playing 21 aside Tickle? :D
Nothing like staying mired in the past eh?
Ireland couldn't have had a political leader since partition as there was no political entity for all Ireland.( I know Nally has given us so many hints to say Gerry Adams but really...... even a SF stooge knows he doesn't fit the bill.. )
As I have no interest in rubby -- I suppose it has to be Anthony Tohill.
26 counties rossfan.. read the thread ::)
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 08:37:17 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2013, 05:05:02 PM
You still playing 21 aside Tickle? :D
Nothing like staying mired in the past eh?
Ireland couldn't have had a political leader since partition as there was no political entity for all Ireland.( I know Nally has given us so many hints to say Gerry Adams but really...... even a SF stooge knows he doesn't fit the bill.. )
As I have no interest in rubby -- I suppose it has to be Anthony Tohill.
26 counties rossfan.. read the thread ::)
Armagh man????
Quote from: ardal on January 14, 2013, 05:40:33 PM
Christy Moore (a big part in popularising our traditional music forms, plus bringing some issues into an international context)
Cardinal O'Fiaich (stood up to Maggie, all round nice guy and was from a wee place in the south; Armagh)
Paudi O'Shea (who didn't want to emulate him?)
Michael O'Leary; didn't he called Mary a basket case. (Business success, speaks his mind, doesn't stick his head in the sand)
Mary Robinson (another All Ireland for County Down; and Antrim, emphasised the diaspora and talked to the wee orange men)
christy and paudie? the rest are not leaders! o'fiaich tried to take a stance but then he had to buckle as the brits pulled out the "paedo file" all those little problems..
leaders?
Quote from: trileacman on January 14, 2013, 06:01:32 PM
John Hume.
Mary Robinson abandoned her post and "her people" as soon as an opportunity arose.
FFS lads wat are ye on about linking football titles to the Troubles. Down's win in '61 as a harbinger of the Troubles? That's ridiculous, the troubles started in response to a campaign of violence and intimidation initiated by the ruling protestant classes after the civil rights demonstrations. To say that Down's AI victory was a compelling factor in the dawn of the troubles displays a shocking disrespect to the people who suffered for years under the yoke of British oppression. I can recall several stories that involve my grandparents and also my parents, stories of segregation, discrimination and sectarianism, and I know they would be insulted to think that people today consider Down winning an AI championship a notable event in the dawning of the Troubles.
26....?
this isnt going so well lads. not many leaders names are there? thats what happens when the two parties in power are the same thing. remember when our glorious president sold croke park to bertie in exchange for a handy td job. then in typical bertie fashion they didnt select him then what did he do? he joined fine gael! thats how little there is between them.
dev? the "leader" who left america with a million dollars to help the irish people? and kept it for himself! sounds abit like fraud/treachery/theft/ betrayal.. take your pick
just picking up on something mayogod.. has mentioned, there are many irishmen who have lead and fought for great causes in recent history indeed have given up their lives for great causes. unfortunately they did their best in other countries not here
I presume Lawnseed and the other "ubers" are now totally opposed to a United Ireland as such noble beings couldn't possibly bear to be united with such an undeserving crowd as the people of the 26 Counties.
I always thought that 70% of the GAA's delegates at Congress voted in favour of allowing Croke Park to be used for soccer/rubby Internationals while Lansdowne Road was closed for redevelopment.
I never knew that Sean Kelly sold it to Bertie Ahern :o
There's some spoofers around her alright :-\ ::)
Quote from: Rossfan on January 14, 2013, 09:00:59 PM
I presume Lawnseed and the other "ubers" are now totally opposed to a United Ireland as such noble beings couldn't possibly bear to be united with such an undeserving crowd as the people of the 26 Counties.
I always thought that 70% of the GAA's delegates at Congress voted in favour of allowing Croke Park to be used for soccer/rubby Internationals while Lansdowne Road was closed for redevelopment.
I never knew that Sean Kelly sold it to Bertie Ahern :o
There's some spoofers around her alright :-\ ::)
without wanting to open that can.. i merely used that example of how easy it is for an aspiring politician to switch allegiance between 'fianna gael'
any leaders out there you'd follow into battle? perhaps leo varadkar? he has volunteered the services of Irish soldiers in the ' euro rapid force' maybe you'd like to die for him? ::)
Quote from: Nally Stand on January 14, 2013, 07:14:18 PM
Quote from: J70 on January 14, 2013, 07:06:23 PM
No mention of DeValera?
Love him or loath him, its hard to think of many who were more influential in the short history of the Republic. We're thankfully moving on from his vision of Irish life, but that does not negate his massive influence over the progress of Irish society.
The thread is about greatest not most influential. Dev hung more republicans than the British did during his time, so I certainly wouldn't call him great. Far far from it.
So what's "greatest"?
What are the parameters here?
you could start with a name and then one or two reasons why you thought that person was worth praise or respect in relation to being a leader ie someone you'd follow. the way the list is going we have sean lemass and jedward. lemass who cowtowed to the catholic church for fear of being unpopular and jedward who lead our kids to believe that they should jump around shouting oh my god with an american accent.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 10:48:51 PM
you could start with a name and then one or two reasons why you thought that person was worth praise or respect in relation to being a leader ie someone you'd follow. the way the list is going we have sean lemass and jedward. lemass who cowtowed to the catholic church for fear of being unpopular and jedward who lead our kids to believe that they should jump around shouting oh my god with an american accent.
Get the ball rolling yourself, shakespeare. And why the line in the sand at partition? You could have said celtic tiger, great famine, end of the 19th century, foundation of the state? Why partition?
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 10:48:51 PM
you could start with a name and then one or two reasons why you thought that person was worth praise or respect in relation to being a leader ie someone you'd follow. the way the list is going we have sean lemass and jedward. lemass who cowtowed to the catholic church for fear of being unpopular and jedward who lead our kids to believe that they should jump around shouting oh my god with an american accent.
Evidently an awful lot of people DID follow DeValera. He was an elected prime minister who did more to shape the first 50 years of post-partition history than anyone else, not some third world thug with an army keeping him in power.
T.K Whitaker. Not a leader but a visionary. His work behind the scenes brought Ireland into the modern era.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 09:13:02 PM
any leaders out there you'd follow into battle?
Which battle do you have in mind?
I am curious to know how we were supposed to have leaders 'you'd follow into battle' in a country with a constitution of declared neutrality.
But then again I'm guessing Lawnseed didn't start this thread in good faith. It is supposed to be rhetorical.
Quote from: muppet on January 15, 2013, 12:00:07 AM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 09:13:02 PM
any leaders out there you'd follow into battle?
Which battle do you have in mind?
I am curious to know how we were supposed to have leaders 'you'd follow into battle' in a country with a constitution of declared neutrality.
But then again I'm guessing Lawnseed didn't start this thread in good faith. It is supposed to be rhetorical.
One minute he is PMSing about Ireland going into battle, the next he wants a leader for us to follow into battle.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 08:35:17 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 14, 2013, 04:44:35 PM
It's a good question and sadly a hard one to come up with many to make a strong case for. I'd probably side with John Hume, can't think of anyone better at the present. His central role in the peace process, something which has made a massive difference to all people on the island, has been well documented but I think in general he tried to do what he thought was right even if it wasn't popular.
26 counties only seanie
Sorry - that was far from clear and I've read back on the thread to make sure I didn't miss something.
Taking it as 26 counties only then yes - your point about one party government since partition is absolutely correct. I am exactly on the same page as you there. I'd even include Labour, bar throwing the odd shape and not backing it up, in that cosy cartel.
There were some good leaders who advanced the Republic but great is too big a word for any in my eyes. Party politics has ruined and continues to ruin the ROI. Policies, ideas and ideals are non-existant and to me they are largely what political leadership should be about.
Politicians you'd follow into battle? Look around all of Europe and you probably wouldn't find one anywhere. Of course if it came to fighting you know full well there won't be any politicians in the trenches.
Besides this isn't medieval Europe its the 21stC, reality of today is much different. politicians are now economic managers more than leaders. The idea of inspiring politicians with great retoric seems to really only work in america but its all hollow.
Sean Quinn - great man for creating jobs
Rightly or wrongly it is obviously deValera. Cosgrave the elder deserves a mention as does Lemass. The rest............... fuggedaboutit.
Quote from: thejuice on January 15, 2013, 09:40:55 AM
Politicians you'd follow into battle? Look around all of Europe and you probably wouldn't find one anywhere. Of course if it came to fighting you know full well there won't be any politicians in the trenches.
Besides this isn't medieval Europe its the 21stC, reality of today is much different. politicians are now economic managers more than leaders. The idea of inspiring politicians with great retoric seems to really only work in america but its all hollow.
Most politicians don't have the first clue about how to manage an economy. They are mostly experts at getting themselves re-elected, nothing else.
6 pages of posts and we,ve tk wittaker. ::) I'd wager most i Irish people don't have a notion who he is such was his impact on modern day ireland. so we don;t have a Gandhi or a Mandela knocking about. so where are our leaders? who are the present day people who have the potential to change this country.
PS the battle analogy relates to trust.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 16, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
6 pages of posts and we,ve tk wittaker. ::) I'd wager most i Irish people don't have a notion who he is such was his impact on modern day ireland. so we don;t have a Gandhi or a Mandela knocking about. so where are our leaders? who are the present day people who have the potential to change this country.
PS the battle analogy relates to trust.
Trust :o Well SF have no place in the Republic then ;D Nobody trusts them.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 16, 2013, 08:36:34 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 16, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
6 pages of posts and we,ve tk wittaker. ::) I'd wager most i Irish people don't have a notion who he is such was his impact on modern day ireland. so we don;t have a Gandhi or a Mandela knocking about. so where are our leaders? who are the present day people who have the potential to change this country.
PS the battle analogy relates to trust.
Trust :o Well SF have no place in the Republic then ;D Nobody trusts them.
you have yet to offer a name.
such is the mettle of your hero enda that his own party tried to dump him before the election, then having failed to find a better man to lead them they locked him in a cupboard for two weeks to avoid him exposing himself for the gimp that he is in a pre-election debate then he hides from angry roscommon people after he closed their hospital he certainly is the unlikely...
Quote from: lawnseed on January 16, 2013, 08:58:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on January 16, 2013, 08:36:34 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on January 16, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
6 pages of posts and we,ve tk wittaker. ::) I'd wager most i Irish people don't have a notion who he is such was his impact on modern day ireland. so we don;t have a Gandhi or a Mandela knocking about. so where are our leaders? who are the present day people who have the potential to change this country.
PS the battle analogy relates to trust.
Trust :o Well SF have no place in the Republic then ;D Nobody trusts them.
you have yet to offer a name.
such is the mettle of your hero enda that his own party tried to dump him before the election, then having failed to find a better man to lead them they locked him in a cupboard for two weeks to avoid him exposing himself for the gimp that he is in a pre-election debate then he hides from angry roscommon people after he closed their hospital he certainly is the unlikely...
Irrelevant, this is not called who are good leaders but the greatest leader. Enda good (which I think) or bad is not the greatest, so why would I suggest him.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 16, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
6 pages of posts and we,ve tk wittaker. ::) I'd wager most i Irish people don't have a notion who he is such was his impact on modern day ireland. so we don;t have a Gandhi or a Mandela knocking about. so where are our leaders? who are the present day people who have the potential to change this country.
PS the battle analogy relates to trust.
Just because you haven't a clue who Whittiker was doesn't make him a bad suggestion. If fact he is probably the best I've seen on the thread.
And how many battles did people follow Ghandi and Mandela into? BTW Ghandi was heavily influenced by Davitt (after he left the Fenians and violent tactics).
Quote from: J70 on January 14, 2013, 07:06:23 PM
No mention of DeValera?
Love him or loath him, its hard to think of many who were more influential in the short history of the Republic. We're thankfully moving on from his vision of Irish life, but that does not negate his massive influence over the progress of Irish society.
I am of the loathe option, couldn't figure out why he was so revered.
There is an argument for WT Cosgrave who was Taoiseach post 1922 till 1932 and copperfastened the democratic decision of the people of the Republic and who handed over power to Dev in 1932 when a lot of people didn't want that to happen in the middle of the Great Depression etc.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 16, 2013, 08:33:23 PM
6 pages of posts and we,ve tk wittaker. ::) I'd wager most i Irish people don't have a notion who he is such was his impact on modern day ireland. so we don;t have a Gandhi or a Mandela knocking about. so where are our leaders? who are the present day people who have the potential to change this country.
PS the battle analogy relates to trust.
Well I voted for Whitaker based on the criteria given - I took leadership to include people getting on with what they've been set to do in an exemplary fashion, rather than looking for notice. For those who only know history in relation to sovereignity, there's a potted history at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._K._Whitaker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T._K._Whitaker). You might note that he's: (a) a Nordie, so that should help, and (b) been voted Irishman of the 20th century. For me, he's been the outstanding person in the construction of the state, since its foundation - I get that this might rule him out immediately for Nationalists/Republicans immediately, but he's an excellent role model in my book.
And a product of my old school. Himself and Des Smyth are our only famous past pupils I can think of.
And I agree, Billy - he probably did more than anyone else to transform this republic. In a positive way, that is. Bertie, Seanie et al performed an even more dramatic reverse transformation.
Whitaker is surely out becuae of his birthplace so we've no-one!
QuoteWhitaker is surely out becuae of his birthplace so we've no-one!
Sure De Valera wasn't born in the 26 counties either.
By improving the economy, Whitaker did more for Irish unity that a lot of politicians that sound off about Irish unity, but have damaged the economy.
Say what you like, as much as you disagree with him and his politics, Ian Paisley was a fantastic leader. Senior that is.
Quote from: lawnseed on January 14, 2013, 10:48:51 PM
you could start with a name and then one or two reasons why you thought that person was worth praise or respect in relation to being a leader ie someone you'd follow. the way the list is going we have sean lemass and jedward. lemass who cowtowed to the catholic church for fear of being unpopular and jedward who lead our kids to believe that they should jump around shouting oh my god with an american accent.
Other nominations / suggestions have been made, but now I understand what YOU want, so I shall summarise and renominate:
Ireland's greatest leader does not necessarily need to be Irish; simply someone Ireland would follow eg. JP2
Opinions are not taken into account
All nominations are null and void unless you accept them.
Thus I nominate:
Franco; the blue shirts followed him
Adolf Hitler; The IRA conspired with him
The English King James 2º; we still follow that wee battle he lost; he died before partition but some follow / despise him to this day.
My great great great great grandfather; he emigrated to America and how many do you thing followed him (we die young in our family)
Six pages in and no mention of the man who helped instill the political culture which created the celtic tiger and the subsequent downfall. This culture is still as prevalent now as in the heyday of the Celtic tiger.
Take a bow CJ Haughey, the patron saint of gombeenism, brown enveloped, self serving politicians in the Dáil.
Quote from: ziggysego on January 17, 2013, 11:20:13 AM
Say what you like, as much as you disagree with him and his politics, Ian Paisley was a fantastic leader. Senior that is.
I assume you are not taking the piss so please explain to me how you came to that conclusion?
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 17, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on January 17, 2013, 11:20:13 AM
Say what you like, as much as you disagree with him and his politics, Ian Paisley was a fantastic leader. Senior that is.
I assume you are not taking the piss so please explain to me how you came to that conclusion?
Started his own religion, own party and made it the strongest party in the north of the island. Can't bring myself to like the man, his politics or his preachings, but that's impressive to me.
Not forgetting his own private army,with gun licenses. :)
Most of the best stuff that happened didn't take single leaders. It was more about the meitheal of people.
Credit unions, gay rights, Co-ops, the GAA , the promotion of quality Irish food,
the Dublin Film Festival , the revival of traditional music and the turning of it into a world class phenomenon, Raidio na Gaeltachta,
TG4, the Rape Crisis centres- it was all about people working together for the greater good.
Irishness is multilayered and doesn't stop at any border anyway.
Quote from: ziggysego on January 17, 2013, 03:57:06 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 17, 2013, 11:55:51 AM
Quote from: ziggysego on January 17, 2013, 11:20:13 AM
Say what you like, as much as you disagree with him and his politics, Ian Paisley was a fantastic leader. Senior that is.
I assume you are not taking the piss so please explain to me how you came to that conclusion?
Started his own religion, own party and made it the strongest party in the north of the island. Can't bring myself to like the man, his politics or his preachings, but that's impressive to me.
yes ziggy! you got it in one. clearly the greatest irish leader of them all. started with nothing, made up a religion, founded a party.. a big one. became first- first minister and then became a lord and his wife. hes far and away the greatest political leader this island has ever had. the perfect mix of religion and politics, charisma and putting that aside hes great craic. no other politician could have did what he did. had he been on the republican side of the fence there'd have been a united ireland 30 years ago and he'd have smashed the fianna gael cosy cartell and smashed the rotting influence of the catholic church and went on to lead this country to a better place than it is now.
but this is fantasy.
whitaker (nordie) seems to be the man who put the country first and unless somebody can think of anyone else
I'll just pick up on one flaw in your Paisley - United Ireland hypothesis.
To 'smash the Catholic Church' he would have had to lure/persuade/con a large part of its Irish members to abandon Catholicism and follow him.
Just because he was successful in leading people, who as Protestants already had a history of moving to another Church, does not mean it would have worked with people who seem absolutely determined to be either Catholic, or nothing. Consider that Catholics, historically in Ireland, rather than switching to Protestantism, preferred to lose their lands and power, turned down food for their starving families during the famine and more recently stood idly by while it was known a small but vicious number of abusers were sheltered within that Church.
I don't see it myself.
Quote from: muppet on January 20, 2013, 11:02:41 AM
I'll just pick up on one flaw in your Paisley - United Ireland hypothesis.
To 'smash the Catholic Church' he would have had to lure/persuade/con a large part of its Irish members to abandon Catholicism and follow him.
Just because he was successful in leading people, who as Protestants already had a history of moving to another Church, does not mean it would have worked with people who seem absolutely determined to be either Catholic, or nothing. Consider that Catholics, historically in Ireland, rather than switching to Protestantism, preferred to lose their lands and power, turned down food for their starving families during the famine and more recently stood idly by while it was known a small but vicious number of abusers were sheltered within that Church.
I don't see it myself.
muppet quite a few catholics turned for the spud check out any of the proddy churches around north armagh. religion aside paisleys ability to lead is unquestionable. just picture him in the dail facing down the gimp kenny or mehal they wouldnt stand a chance. do you think for a minute angela merkel would push him around or sarkozy would be slapping the head off him? he'd devour them
Quote from: lawnseed on January 20, 2013, 11:35:57 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 20, 2013, 11:02:41 AM
I'll just pick up on one flaw in your Paisley - United Ireland hypothesis.
To 'smash the Catholic Church' he would have had to lure/persuade/con a large part of its Irish members to abandon Catholicism and follow him.
Just because he was successful in leading people, who as Protestants already had a history of moving to another Church, does not mean it would have worked with people who seem absolutely determined to be either Catholic, or nothing. Consider that Catholics, historically in Ireland, rather than switching to Protestantism, preferred to lose their lands and power, turned down food for their starving families during the famine and more recently stood idly by while it was known a small but vicious number of abusers were sheltered within that Church.
I don't see it myself.
muppet quite a few catholics turned for the spud check out any of the proddy churches around north armagh. religion aside paisleys ability to lead is unquestionable. just picture him in the dail facing down the gimp kenny or mehal they wouldnt stand a chance. do you think for a minute angela merkel would push him around or sarkozy would be slapping the head off him? he'd devour them
He led a religion and he led a conservative group who's main mantra was "Defend what we have".
There's nothing I see to suggest he could lead a 'normal' country in terms of economic management, diplomacy with other countries etc
Quote from: lawnseed on January 20, 2013, 11:35:57 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 20, 2013, 11:02:41 AM
I'll just pick up on one flaw in your Paisley - United Ireland hypothesis.
To 'smash the Catholic Church' he would have had to lure/persuade/con a large part of its Irish members to abandon Catholicism and follow him.
Just because he was successful in leading people, who as Protestants already had a history of moving to another Church, does not mean it would have worked with people who seem absolutely determined to be either Catholic, or nothing. Consider that Catholics, historically in Ireland, rather than switching to Protestantism, preferred to lose their lands and power, turned down food for their starving families during the famine and more recently stood idly by while it was known a small but vicious number of abusers were sheltered within that Church.
I don't see it myself.
muppet quite a few catholics turned for the spud check out any of the proddy churches around north armagh. religion aside paisleys ability to lead is unquestionable. just picture him in the dail facing down the gimp kenny or mehal they wouldnt stand a chance. do you think for a minute angela merkel would push him around or sarkozy would be slapping the head off him? he'd devour them
Such rubbish, your hero the Rev.was booted out of Downing Strret by many a feable Brit PM. He woul shot at Kenny and they would release Ring to shout louder back at him. What else had McGuinness BFF got in his repitoire?
ability to lead is unquestionable! Yes of course it is questionable. His ability to create hate, bigotry, diversity, blame, bitterness in the north can nearly be left at the feet of one man. None of that is unquestionable. The minute he became 1st minster, he hadn't a f**king clue how to run a country. He spent most of the time bringing down powersharing and less unionist coalitions, that when it came to the crunch he couldnt do what they had be trying to do.
At the end Martin McGuinness was fit to make a fool of him because it was so obvious he had no game plan outside of "no surrender" and "never". Thats why all the monkeys on the Nolan Show could shout when it came to a political conversation. He has left bad blood in the north even onto the next generation who hear there parents go on about no surrender and never and in due course have picked this up too.
When hes gone he not be missed, the leader of misrule, sure there no question of that. But to call him a leader of men and a great leader, dont make me laugh.
The North has had no-one i call a real leader since John Hume.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on January 20, 2013, 12:48:12 PM
ability to lead is unquestionable! Yes of course it is questionable. His ability to create hate, bigotry, diversity, blame, bitterness in the north can nearly be left at the feet of one man. None of that is unquestionable. The minute he became 1st minster, he hadn't a f**king clue how to run a country. He spent most of the time bringing down powersharing and less unionist coalitions, that when it came to the crunch he couldnt do what they had be trying to do.
At the end Martin McGuinness was fit to make a fool of him because it was so obvious he had no game plan outside of "no surrender" and "never". Thats why all the monkeys on the Nolan Show could shout when it came to a political conversation. He has left bad blood in the north even onto the next generation who hear there parents go on about no surrender and never and in due course have picked this up too.
When hes gone he not be missed, the leader of misrule, sure there no question of that. But to call him a leader of men and a great leader, dont make me laugh.
The North has had no-one i call a real leader since John Hume.
yes john hume the man who wanted his own countrymen interned without trial ???
is wullie frazer not trying to be a paisley? how many people are following him?
hold on! sweet jez! how did we miss the big one..??? and a 26 county man at that! the ultimate irish leader....... EDWARD CARSON!!
forget whitaker! carson is the greatest irish leader since and before partition
Quote from: lawnseed on January 20, 2013, 11:35:57 AM
Quote from: muppet on January 20, 2013, 11:02:41 AM
I'll just pick up on one flaw in your Paisley - United Ireland hypothesis.
To 'smash the Catholic Church' he would have had to lure/persuade/con a large part of its Irish members to abandon Catholicism and follow him.
Just because he was successful in leading people, who as Protestants already had a history of moving to another Church, does not mean it would have worked with people who seem absolutely determined to be either Catholic, or nothing. Consider that Catholics, historically in Ireland, rather than switching to Protestantism, preferred to lose their lands and power, turned down food for their starving families during the famine and more recently stood idly by while it was known a small but vicious number of abusers were sheltered within that Church.
I don't see it myself.
muppet quite a few catholics turned for the spud check out any of the proddy churches around north armagh. religion aside paisleys ability to lead is unquestionable. just picture him in the dail facing down the gimp kenny or mehal they wouldnt stand a chance. do you think for a minute angela merkel would push him around or sarkozy would be slapping the head off him? he'd devour them
In 2004 your great leader did leadeth a protest outwith the Hill of the Raven, and amidst much knashing of teeth and testing of Prot, and didth declareth that on THE SABBATH, there shalt not be endeavour of any kind, kin or kick. With much rattling of sabre, and hereditary of Sash he pointed east, at the Commandments of the 10 and decreed that the Tigers of Leicester shalt not be engaged. But the Sons of an Lámh Dearg didn't listen to the Round Reverend, nor his 2 score of merry men, and dideth dispatch the Tigers of Leicester back to whence they had cometh from, with their buttocks as red as Ian cheeks.
Edward carson.. hurler etc etc.. the man who championed the cause of nordie catholics before they had a cause. a principled man who fought for his beliefs and couldnt be turned by the offer of a bribe or title. a dublin man.. maybe his cause didnt suit everyone but he lead from the front..
Perhaps we are best without great leaders. As Peter Drucker once remarked, the 20th century produced three great leaders: Hitler, Stalin and Mao and they had some downsides.
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2013, 05:22:16 PM
Perhaps we are best without great leaders. As Peter Drucker once remarked, the 20th century produced three great leaders: Hitler, Stalin and Mao and they had some downsides.
someone said before that the minute you introduce the nazis or hitler to a debate its effectively over
Quote from: lawnseed on January 23, 2013, 09:18:13 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on January 22, 2013, 05:22:16 PM
Perhaps we are best without great leaders. As Peter Drucker once remarked, the 20th century produced three great leaders: Hitler, Stalin and Mao and they had some downsides.
someone said before that the minute you introduce the nazis or hitler to a debate its effectively over
Mr. Godwin.
Did he teach you?