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McEnaney wants tougher stance from hurling refs

The head of the GAA's national referees committee has called for significant improvement from hurling match officials in 2013.

Pat McEnaney has said his committee is disappointed that "seven to eight clear red cards" were missed by referees in this year's hurling championship.

He described such a situation as "unacceptable" and signalled a change in approach in 2013.

His comments come as former GAA president Nickey Brennan questions the performances of the officials in two of Kilkenny's last three championship matches that resulted in serious injuries sustained by two of their players.

Michael Rice required the insertion of seven screws in an operation on a hand that was left shattered after a blow from an opponent's hurl in the All-Ireland semi-final against Tipperary, while TJ Reid's kneecap was fractured by a blow from a hurl in the All-Ireland final replay against Galway.

"The two incidents involving Rice and Reid were very serious and we are once again left wondering how the GAA can punish the aggressors if such incidents are not handled properly by the match officials," wrote Brennan in his weekly 'Kilkenny People' column.

Review

McEnaney said he wouldn't be specific about any particular incidents but admits that, overall, he finds it hard to disagree with the former president's views and confirmed that the NRC has conducted its own review with referees since the championship.

"As a group, I'd have to say we weren't happy with it. There were only two red cards in this year's championship. We felt in our review that there should have been seven to eight more red cards that were clear offences. That's a figure of 16pc that we got right, which is not satisfactory," he said.

The former football referee, who took charge of three All-Ireland finals, has been head of the referees' committee since April and frank in his assessments this year.

Brennan pulls no punches either in his analysis. "I know that some Kilkenny players have stepped over the line on occasions and were rightly punished for their misdemeanours," he wrote.

"Such punishment was accepted and the team moved on to the next challenge. It is therefore ironic that at the end of another championship year, two of Kilkenny's star men, TJ Reid and Michael Rice, will play no part in their club's current championship campaign.

"Both were the victims of appalling indiscipline in which the perpetrators went unpunished for reckless use of the hurley.

"I accept that neither player went out intentionally to cause the Kilkenny opponent a serious injury, but in the heat of a contest unsavoury incidents sometimes occur which have no place in Gaelic games.

"It is simply not good enough to talk about hurling being a man's game and whatever happens on the field being left there."

Earlier this year, on the eve of the hurling league final in May, Kilkenny manager Brian Cody made quite an impassioned plea to officials to stop trying to take the physicality out of the game.

The GAA's Central Competitions Controls Committee can rarely give out retrospective suspensions now because of a change in the protocols in revisiting incidents already dealt with by referees.

McEnaney is adamant, however, that his group are convinced there should have been five times as many red cards in the 2012 championship.

"We have to accept that we missed them and that's a good starting point for us in 2013."

McEnaney sees room for improvement overall in football too but is satisfied that there was improvement in the critical areas they targeted in 2012 -- body checking, the protection of the high fielder and interference by opponents with injured players who are lying on the ground.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/mcenaney-wants-tougher-stance-from-hurling-refs-3264703.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/mcenaney-wants-tougher-stance-from-hurling-refs-3264703.html)

Well I cant say that Pats comments arent unexpected. Is this down to the press surrounding the injury to Michael Rice, capped off with the buildup to both finals that heavily focused the refeeres and their potential performance as well as the expectations of what each was going to 'let go'.

I just hope that this isnt a statement that leads the way to the appointment of referees that will be card happy throughout leagues and championships next year.

In a broader perpective, and as a referee myself, I feel that given the way that GAA games have developed especially in the last number of years; Hurling and Gaelic should have seperate rule books that are adapted to the needs of each sport, in particular the area of tackling.
Far too often there are debates over what is not 'let go' in Gaelic as opposed to the 'Brian Gavin' way of refereeing that is often the view as to how Hurling is refereed.

The great Pat McEnaney.......Saviour of the Royals '96.What a legend ::)

You'd think McEnaney would know that the first rule in the hurling rules section of the T.O reads
" The referee shall ignore everything else written in this section "  ;D

With the punishment handed out by KK players over the last several years not to mind the cynical tackles most of us forecast that other teams would up the anti and meet fire with fire,unfortunately some KK players came out the wrong side this year.At last the GAA are going to say stop and I agree with this,however it should have been done several years ago,why the change of heart now?

""Hurling and Gaelic should have separate rule books that are adapted to the needs of each sport, in particular the area of tackling.""

The best suggestion on this board in a while, otherwise hurling will turn into a cissy sport like football where you get a yellow card for having your hand on your opponents shoulder while he is trying to pass the ball all of five feet to his teamate.

Quote from: Absent on October 19, 2012, 07:38:25 PM
With the punishment handed out by KK players over the last several years not to mind the cynical tackles most of us forecast that other teams would up the anti and meet fire with fire,unfortunately some KK players came out the wrong side this year.At last the GAA are going to say stop and I agree with this,however it should have been done several years ago,why the change of heart now?

Pure bullshit, your not from Cork by any chance?  Kilkenny play the game as it should be played, unfortunatley over the last 'several' years and many more of them they can get nobody to play with them.  If you take the 8 top teams in hurling are you going to say they are not as physical as the Cat's?   It is about time that the moaning stopped about Kilkenny and that pure hurling skill rather than allegations of winning by cynical tackles has got them where they are.

I suppose all of this does go back to the Michael Rice injury but maybe it was a badly needed wake - up call. I'm all for the game being physical and allowed to flow. Everyone is, but our players need to be protected too and maybe we lost sight of thati n the last couple of years. There was a lot of wild pulling this year that went unpunished. The hard tackling from 1 -15 that's a part of the game now is fantastic but a wild pull can end a player's year, maybe his career and affect his ability to earn a living. The game won't lose anything in clamping down on wild and intentional pulls on an opponent. No one wants to see fussy refereeing in hurling but I don't think that's what's being proposed. Just a bit more protection. I'm with Pat on this one.

Obviously AC and Bud are right that hurling and football should have seperate rulebooks. 2 different sports sharing one rulebook is ludicrous really.

Quote from: Paul Callanan on October 20, 2012, 01:26:00 PM
I suppose all of this does go back to the Michael Rice injury but maybe it was a badly needed wake - up call. I'm all for the game being physical and allowed to flow. Everyone is, but our players need to be protected too and maybe we lost sight of thati n the last couple of years. There was a lot of wild pulling this year that went unpunished. The hard tackling from 1 -15 that's a part of the game now is fantastic but a wild pull can end a player's year, maybe his career and affect his ability to earn a living. The game won't lose anything in clamping down on wild and intentional pulls on an opponent. No one wants to see fussy refereeing in hurling but I don't think that's what's being proposed. Just a bit more protection. I'm with Pat on this one.

Obviously AC and Bud are right that hurling and football should have seperate rulebooks. 2 different sports sharing one rulebook is ludicrous really.

You are so right, a badly needed wake up call,pity that some KK supporters only noticed the dangerous play in 2012.

Pat McEnaney is right. Referreeing became too lenient in recent years in hurling. Brian Cody is one of the biggest critics of the sin bin and stricter refereeing and red cards in inter county hurling are almost non existent now and two of his players have unfortunately picked up serious injuries. It was ridiculous to see what went on in the Tipp Kilkenny semi final without anyone being sent off or disciplined after the game. Padraic Maher committed a number of yellow and one red card offence and somehow lasted the entire game but he wasn't the only one at it. The referees and Gaa authorities will have to get stricter next year.

Right he may be - to an extent anyway but there are plenty of hurling referees who have given over 20 years to the GAA, Michael Wadding from your own county being one, who deserve to be called upon and their time paid for to provide a report on this matter. Pat is head of the national referees committee and he is a football refereee. Like every county board outside of the top ten hurling counties, hurling will be the poor relation around his table. 

There should be a seperate forum in Croke Park for hurling referees and let Pat concentrate on enforcing the rules that already exist in football, like asking himself how he couldn't see Marty Clarke kicking a high ball into the square where Benny Coulter had been standing as if he were waiting for a bus before denying Kildare one of the few chances they had at an All-Ireland in 2010.

Over the last five years there have been more rule changes in football than there were in the previous 125 years and look what we have today?  KFSAFH  (Keep Football Suits Away From Hurling)

Can I start off with saying that Nicky Brennan is a self serving p***k?

'Brennan pulls no punches either in his analysis. "I know that some Kilkenny players have stepped over the line on occasions and were rightly punished for their misdemeanours," he wrote.'

And a lot haven't been punished either Nicholas...

From a Kilkenny perspective you can't run with the hare and hunt with the hounds so complaining about the bad injuries picked up by Rice and TJ Reid (not sure if he picked his up from a dirty pull!) after Cody going on all year about the physicality being refereed out of hurling borders on hypocrisy.

There's nothing wrong with the rules of hurling, but cuteness in terms of holding, body checking, third man tackling etc, which is coached into teams now makes life harder for referees who now have to make decisions on marginal calls and with the pressure to let the game flow. If you'd looked close enough at Donnellan's sending off, he was being held by JJ Delany and if following the rule book should have been a free in, no doubt he lashed out in frustration and deserved his red, but that cuteness which pushes the boundaries will either get worse as managers and players try to eek out and advantage by hook or by crook or we'll watch referee's blowing for all and sundry in the NHL and hope that the players and managers cop on and change tack a bit.

I'd like to see a 10 minute sin bin for the cynical stuff as it'll give referee's another option as they do loathe to throw out the reds for persistent fouling irrespective of what Brian Cody says.

cant think of to many bad injuries dished out by kilkenny players could be wrong tho nothing wrong with the game let it alone

Quote from: the waffler on October 24, 2012, 08:00:09 PM
cant think of to many bad injuries dished out by kilkenny players could be wrong tho nothing wrong with the game let it alone

Nope, Kilkenny rarely do the wild and silly stuff.
To succeed at the very top of hurling these days, you seem to need to do a lot of stuff that is not very legal, but not tightly policed by referees.
The stuff johnnycool has already mentioned above.

The spare hand is now as important as the hurley holding hand these days. The first thing challenging players do now is to grab the man in possession with the spare hand and try and drag him back and impede him. Trying to steal the ball is no longer the primary form of tackle, upper body grappling is.

Correct on the use of the spare hand.  The trick is to grap the opponent, impede him, then release the grabbing hand withing about a half a second.  The ball-carrier's momentum is halted but is not being 'fouled'.  The ref won't then blow because then it's "ah ref!" and anyway nobody is being obviously held.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on October 25, 2012, 12:06:45 AM
The spare hand is now as important as the hurley holding hand these days. The first thing challenging players do now is to grab the man in possession with the spare hand and try and drag him back and impede him. Trying to steal the ball is no longer the primary form of tackle, upper body grappling is.

Good men, keep at it and by the time this thread gets to another page it will be a civil court case to block someone down.  Are ye sure its not camogie or gaelic football ye are taking about?

Quote from: Bud Wiser on October 25, 2012, 08:10:26 PM
Good men, keep at it and by the time this thread gets to another page it will be a civil court case to block someone down.  Are ye sure its not camogie or gaelic football ye are taking about?

Fingers in ears singing "la la la"

The rules of hurling, as they are, are being ignored in favour of the 'let the game flow' brigade.  Now either the rules are flawed or they are not.

What bothers me more than anything is that there is no sign of the 'let the game flow' brigade bringing an alternate set of rules through their clubs and through their county conventions all the way to congress.

I could deal with it if:
- 'tipping' the helmet was permitted,
- the frontal charge was permitted,
- holding an opponent's hurl was permitted,
- taking eight spets was permitted,
- throwing the ball eight feet in front of you in order to ride a challenge, then gathering it again was permitted,
- grabbing an opponent by the arm was permitted, and
- flailing all before you at throw-in time like a Munster hurler on acid was permitted.

We're heading into club AGM time.  Let's hear from ye.  Then we could all see where we stand and we would have a level playing field.  Until then we are stuck with the current rules which are being applied to the weaker counties but get ignored from June onwards when said weaker counties depart the championship.

For a minute there I thought that you had designed a set of rules specifically aimed at preventing Kilkenny from winning another game. The first  rule you want changed would appear to arise from the old folklore and Tall Tales About Tommy from Tullaroan collection  because if we have reached a stage where this is a problem it is one that has gone unnoticed by journalists and commentators alike.

Frontal challenge?? If you are referring to the butt of a hurl been stuck in your groin like what happened a Kilkenny player who was almost de-balled by a Cork player when the game, well for Cork anyway, was already over I agree. Tipp and Cork feasted for years on tales about Hells Kitchen and The Rock and how you were never at s hurling match at all unless you were at a munster final. Then when  other counties produce players like Noel Hickey for example they come crying to  mammy that they want the rules changed.

If the football brigade get at hurling rules they will bring in one about tipping the helmet allright whereby every player must greet his opponent onto the field of play and tip his helmet to him while exclaiming " I say old chap but that was quite a wonderful score" after every score.  Maybe extend the rules into the dressing room and serve the players strawberries and cream at half  time instead of a good old Davy Fitz like bollicking and then the same rule book wil do because that is as close to football/handball as you will get.

Did anyone read tom ryans article in the daily mail on tuesday? basically he was telling pat mc to eff off back to f-ball and leave hurling alone. what a disgraceful way for ryan to act. using his rag as a platform to attack a gaa official.

Awful stuff happened in last years championship and has been happening for ages, i hope the refs are more onto it this year

Quote from: GalwayLassForLiam on May 23, 2013, 11:06:24 PM
Did anyone read tom ryans article in the daily mail on tuesday? basically he was telling pat mc to eff off back to f-ball and leave hurling alone. what a disgraceful way for ryan to act. using his rag as a platform to attack a gaa official.

Awful stuff happened in last years championship and has been happening for ages, i hope the refs are more onto it this year

Read it alright.


Tom doesn't mince his words.

Ah sure everyone knows hurling is "special" and football is a game for lesser breeds who need rules and cards etc etc.
None of that oul rules sh1te in hurling - the ref is only there to keep the score and blow for half and full time.
Even the changes at Congress this year - it had to be spelled out they referred to football only or else the special ones would have voted them down.
And then they wonder why their game is limited to a few Counties.

Quote from: Rossfan on May 24, 2013, 03:15:44 PM
Ah sure everyone knows hurling is "special" and football is a game for lesser breeds who need rules and cards etc etc.
None of that oul rules sh1te in hurling - the ref is only there to keep the score and blow for half and full time.
Even the changes at Congress this year - it had to be spelled out they referred to football only or else the special ones would have voted them down.
And then they wonder why their game is limited to a few Counties.

Ah, it's an ALL Ireland Series. Sure anybody can win it so long as you are from Tipp, Cork or Kilkenny! Ninety titles among those three and all the titles since 1998!

Carlow lost 3 yesterday. Manager says there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game.

Quote from: orangeman on June 03, 2013, 11:55:29 PM
Carlow lost 3 yesterday. Manager says there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game.

If it was maybe in Croke park or thurles involving the bigger teams he would have a point, Down lost their fullback on Saturday and rightly so as he pulled across the legs of a man going past him very similar to a Tommy Walsh 'tackle' vrs Wexford where Tommy didn't even get a yellow.

Maybe thats where Meyler is coming from as there is different standards of refereeing depending on who's playing as can be seen by the two sendings off in the club finals in Croke park, neither of those two lads would have gotten the line if the game was in August or September.

Quote from: johnneycool on June 04, 2013, 08:42:55 AM

Quote from: orangeman on June 03, 2013, 11:55:29 PM
Carlow lost 3 yesterday. Manager says there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game.

If it was maybe in Croke park or thurles involving the bigger teams he would have a point, Down lost their fullback on Saturday and rightly so as he pulled across the legs of a man going past him very similar to a Tommy Walsh 'tackle' vrs Wexford where Tommy didn't even get a yellow.

Maybe thats where Meyler is coming from as there is different standards of refereeing depending on who's playing as can be seen by the two sendings off in the club finals in Croke park, neither of those two lads would have gotten the line if the game was in August or September.

A player could pull a player down twice in 2 minutes and get 2 yellow cards, if this is followed by a players pulling someone else down and maybe slapping a had when trying to gain possession then that's another 2 yellow cards and dismissal!! Is that a dirty game? No but well within the rules

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 04, 2013, 12:13:08 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on June 04, 2013, 08:42:55 AM

Quote from: orangeman on June 03, 2013, 11:55:29 PM
Carlow lost 3 yesterday. Manager says there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game.

If it was maybe in Croke park or thurles involving the bigger teams he would have a point, Down lost their fullback on Saturday and rightly so as he pulled across the legs of a man going past him very similar to a Tommy Walsh 'tackle' vrs Wexford where Tommy didn't even get a yellow.

Maybe thats where Meyler is coming from as there is different standards of refereeing depending on who's playing as can be seen by the two sendings off in the club finals in Croke park, neither of those two lads would have gotten the line if the game was in August or September.

A player could pull a player down twice in 2 minutes and get 2 yellow cards, if this is followed by a players pulling someone else down and maybe slapping a had when trying to gain possession then that's another 2 yellow cards and dismissal!! Is that a dirty game? No but well within the rules

Its the double standard that I would be most concerned about.

When was the last time you saw Tommy Walsh for example being fouled/ booked for any of those things you have mentioned MR2. Yet if a lad from Carlow does the same Barry Kelly et al would be dying to get the book out.

Quote from: NAG1 on June 04, 2013, 01:14:58 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 04, 2013, 12:13:08 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on June 04, 2013, 08:42:55 AM

Quote from: orangeman on June 03, 2013, 11:55:29 PM
Carlow lost 3 yesterday. Manager says there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game.

If it was maybe in Croke park or thurles involving the bigger teams he would have a point, Down lost their fullback on Saturday and rightly so as he pulled across the legs of a man going past him very similar to a Tommy Walsh 'tackle' vrs Wexford where Tommy didn't even get a yellow.

Maybe thats where Meyler is coming from as there is different standards of refereeing depending on who's playing as can be seen by the two sendings off in the club finals in Croke park, neither of those two lads would have gotten the line if the game was in August or September.

A player could pull a player down twice in 2 minutes and get 2 yellow cards, if this is followed by a players pulling someone else down and maybe slapping a had when trying to gain possession then that's another 2 yellow cards and dismissal!! Is that a dirty game? No but well within the rules

Its the double standard that I would be most concerned about.

When was the last time you saw Tommy Walsh for example being fouled/ booked for any of those things you have mentioned MR2. Yet if a lad from Carlow does the same Barry Kelly et al would be dying to get the book out.

I know what you're saying NAG1, I've issues with the yellow card being shown for "pull downs" other than when a player is running in on goal. No problem for that some pull downs could be accidental and player gets booked. As for the Tommy Walsh style of hurling it's on the edge and he shouldn't get away with half the stuff, if he were to be booked early on he'd not be at it, trust me

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 04, 2013, 02:23:08 PM

Quote from: NAG1 on June 04, 2013, 01:14:58 PM

Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 04, 2013, 12:13:08 PM

Quote from: johnneycool on June 04, 2013, 08:42:55 AM

Quote from: orangeman on June 03, 2013, 11:55:29 PM
Carlow lost 3 yesterday. Manager says there wasn't a dirty stroke in the game.

If it was maybe in Croke park or thurles involving the bigger teams he would have a point, Down lost their fullback on Saturday and rightly so as he pulled across the legs of a man going past him very similar to a Tommy Walsh 'tackle' vrs Wexford where Tommy didn't even get a yellow.

Maybe thats where Meyler is coming from as there is different standards of refereeing depending on who's playing as can be seen by the two sendings off in the club finals in Croke park, neither of those two lads would have gotten the line if the game was in August or September.

A player could pull a player down twice in 2 minutes and get 2 yellow cards, if this is followed by a players pulling someone else down and maybe slapping a had when trying to gain possession then that's another 2 yellow cards and dismissal!! Is that a dirty game? No but well within the rules

Its the double standard that I would be most concerned about.

When was the last time you saw Tommy Walsh for example being fouled/ booked for any of those things you have mentioned MR2. Yet if a lad from Carlow does the same Barry Kelly et al would be dying to get the book out.

I know what you're saying NAG1, I've issues with the yellow card being shown for "pull downs" other than when a player is running in on goal. No problem for that some pull downs could be accidental and player gets booked. As for the Tommy Walsh style of hurling it's on the edge and he shouldn't get away with half the stuff, if he were to be booked early on he'd not be at it, trust me

If that was to happen Cody would be giving off in the press about it being a mans game, letting it go and what not and we wouldn't see that referee again in any big games..

Surely you remember John Gough?

Mc Enaney tells refs to keep sending them off - was he that fond himself of being told "how" to referee ? Pat, when he reffed, had his  "own style" and didn't take kindly to being instructed on how to ref. He was his own man and it served him well for a long time. Why does he feel the need to instruct refs now ?.


Refs told to keep dishing out reds

Thursday, July 25, 2013

Hurling referees have been defiantly told to continue issuing red cards for high fouls following a meeting of inter-county match officials on Tuesday evening.



By John Fogarty
GAA CorrespondentDespite Pat Horgan's proposed one-match ban for striking being rescinded by the GAA's Central Hearings Committee (CHC) last weekend, James McGrath was given the thumbs up by referees chief Pat McEnaney for his decision to send off the Cork forward for a foul on Limerick's Paudie O'Brien.

Ahead of this Sunday' All-Ireland quarter-finals in Semple Stadium, McEnaney stated there has been no change in the directive given to his crew at the start of the season.

The CHC's decision, he insists, will have no impact on Brian Gavin and Barry Kelly who take charge of the games in Thurles.

"We're sticking to the matters that we've set out since the start of the year," said McEnaney. "James McGrath reported a player for striking. What happens outside of the job that we do, in the committee rooms, that's for other people to decide and we've no axe to grind.

"We'll be sticking to what the referees have been instructed to do and that is fellas being struck on the head with a hurley is a red card offence with us. It's a striking offence.

"Too many of these incidents have been happening and have been going without the punishment they deserve. We'll be continuing to do our job. The referees will be doing it the way we've asked them to do it. There will be no change of direction on our part. What goes on in board or committee rooms is none of my business."

McGrath returned to action last weekend in Westmeath where he sent off five players in a club game, one of them a first cousin of his. McEnaney gave him a ringing endorsement following the Munster final furore.

"I'm happy that James was spot on, absolutely."

In the face of heavy criticism following his call to dismiss Horgan, McGrath commented on sportsfile.com via his Facebook account last Saturday.

Quoting a recent comment made by Sky Sports News presenter Rachel Wyse, he wrote: "Referee bashing is, of course, the easiest pastime in the world. The job is a thankless one and any individual who has the courage to referee any sport deserves respect."

He sarcastically added: "Thanks to all those in the media & chat forums who have single handedly 'bashed' me — just to say it has made me stronger, I will stand the test of time... thanks again, really appreciate it."

McEnaney is satisfied the GAA will act appropriately following the jostling and verbal abuse referee Joe McQuillan received following last Saturday's Tyrone-Kildare qualifier in Newbridge. As his changing room was situated under the stand, the Cavan match official had to walk through the crowd in St Conleth's Park. Although he had a Garda escort, he was pushed and accosted by supporters unhappy with his performance.

Both GAA president Liam O'Neill and director general Páraic Duffy have given assurances the situation must change as referees' safety is of paramount importance. They have also said Newbridge won't host a major game until referees aren't put in such a potentially dangerous situation.

"Joe didn't get hurt, that's the first thing to say and that's important. Liam O'Neill said this week we can't have situations like that. There will be discussions.

"While it was a county's ground it was under Croke Park jurisdiction for the game and when I spoke to Páraic Duffy last night [Tuesday] he reaffirmed to me it's something that we need to look at it."

Meanwhile, Mayo manager James Horan has slammed the sideline regulations in the wake of Sunday's Connacht final win over London.

Speaking about the Exiles' heavy tackling especially in the latter stages of the game and the need to get replacements on, he described the situation which restricts his number of backroom team on pitchside to five including himself as "absolutely ridiculous".

"There was a couple of variations on rugby tackles going in there, so we'd a lot of substitutes that we were trying to bring on, and I'm not quite sure of the situation on sidelines," Horan began.

"There's five of my crew allowed on, but besides that there were a number of Connacht Council people and a number of other people on the sideline, so it's very, very hard to make substitutions now. The GAA really do need to look at that rule. I think it's absolutely ridiculous, the situation that's there at the moment."

Quote from: orangeman on July 25, 2013, 09:46:49 AM
Mc Enaney tells refs to keep sending them off - was he that fond himself of being told "how" to referee ? Pat, when he reffed, had his  "own style" and didn't take kindly to being instructed on how to ref. He was his own man and it served him well for a long time. Why does he feel the need to instruct refs now ?.

Perhaps because he's head of a Referees body ;)

Pat and his committee will be pleased tonight after Shefflin getting the road today in the big match. Nothing like sending off a big name to get everyone's attention to the new regime. Shefflin's first ever championship red card ?

Quote from: hardstation on July 29, 2013, 12:36:20 AM

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:33:13 AM
Pat and his committee will be pleased tonight after Shefflin getting the road today in the big match. Nothing like sending off a big name to get everyone's attention to the new regime. Shefflin's first ever championship red card ?

Really?

Supposedly yes.

First yellow very harsh as all Shefflin did was tap on opponents hurley. 2nd one justified. As long as refs are consistent with neck and head high tackles no-one can have complaints. Kelly seemed to be distracted by the fight in midfield and yellow carding those players but O'Neill should have got a least a yellow for pulling across Larkin for the penalty.

Mayo had to play another county and Pat McEnaney on more than one occassion. Meath is long forgiven, Pat on the other hand  >:(

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:39:28 AM

Quote from: hardstation on July 29, 2013, 12:36:20 AM

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:33:13 AM
Pat and his committee will be pleased tonight after Shefflin getting the road today in the big match. Nothing like sending off a big name to get everyone's attention to the new regime. Shefflin's first ever championship red card ?

Really?

Supposedly yes.

It's hardly an Everest climbing achievement for a forward to avoid getting a red card in their career. Though Shefflin did get red carded and suspended in the league some time around 2004.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on July 29, 2013, 09:36:41 AM

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:39:28 AM

Quote from: hardstation on July 29, 2013, 12:36:20 AM

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:33:13 AM
Pat and his committee will be pleased tonight after Shefflin getting the road today in the big match. Nothing like sending off a big name to get everyone's attention to the new regime. Shefflin's first ever championship red card ?

Really?

Supposedly yes.

It's hardly an Everest climbing achievement for a forward to avoid getting a red card in their career. Though Shefflin did get red carded and suspended in the league some time around 2004.

2004 - 10 playing seasons ago -

Quote from: waterfordlad on July 29, 2013, 08:27:04 AM
First yellow very harsh as all Shefflin did was tap on opponents hurley. 2nd one justified. As long as refs are consistent with neck and head high tackles no-one can have complaints. Kelly seemed to be distracted by the fight in midfield and yellow carding those players but O'Neill should have got a least a yellow for pulling across Larkin for the penalty.

Not in my book. Small man drops his shoulder and leans into the arm of the man defending. The man defending recognises this and moves his arms back to ensure it doesnt get locked round the attacking players neck. There was nothing dangerous about what Shefflin did. He reacted quickly to the possibility that a foul was being drawn (the attacker knew what he was doing). Some difference to a man breaking a tackle at pace and the defending player clothslines him. Two totally different challenges that need different sanctions

Compare Shefflins two fouls to the antics and intent of Shane ONeill yesterday? Hard to believe BK didnt card the foul for the penalty but regardless, he's the most infuriating referee to watch. Games become too much about him.

Fancy Cork on yesterdays form

Quote from: theskull1 on July 29, 2013, 10:06:04 AM

Quote from: waterfordlad on July 29, 2013, 08:27:04 AM
First yellow very harsh as all Shefflin did was tap on opponents hurley. 2nd one justified. As long as refs are consistent with neck and head high tackles no-one can have complaints. Kelly seemed to be distracted by the fight in midfield and yellow carding those players but O'Neill should have got a least a yellow for pulling across Larkin for the penalty.

Not in my book. Small man drops his shoulder and leans into the arm of the man defending. The man defending recognises this and moves his arms back to ensure it doesnt get locked round the attacking players neck. There was nothing dangerous about what Shefflin did. He reacted quickly to the possibility that a foul was being drawn (the attacker knew what he was doing). Some difference to a man breaking a tackle at pace and the defending player clothslines him. Two totally different challenges that need different sanctions

Compare Shefflins two fouls to the antics and intent of Shane ONeill yesterday? Hard to believe BK didnt card the foul for the penalty but regardless, he's the most infuriating referee to watch. Games become too much about him.

Fancy Cork on yesterdays form

I think it was clarified afterwards that O'Neill was yellow carded for the penalty foul.
That said, it was potentially a red card tackle the way he swung.

Henry got two yellows
not a straight red card.

big difference

Quote from: neilthemac on July 29, 2013, 10:38:25 AM
Henry got two yellows
not a straight red card.

big difference

??? hard to know what you're saying there or who you're saying it to?

As in, don't blame McEnaney

Henry deserved both cards.
late slap with the hurley
high tackle (Kilkenny have been masters at winning frees from these for years)
Henry or Cody can have no complaints

Henry deserved both cards.   If you looked at all the fouls committed during the game, these were less deserving of even a free never mind a card though referees seems to be able to pick and choose what he wants to card and what he doesnt. The rulebook if used at every turn would bring the game to a standstill, so the referees have a sizeable influence on games. 
late slap with the hurley Too vague. He may have made contact yes but didn't look like much of a slap to me. How many "mistimed" knocks do hurlers get in a game and they go unpunished (because its part of the game). The player with the ball didn't even react so its unclear whether any contact was made but regardless it was a very soft yellow card when you consider the challenge that P Maher made on Michael Rice in the AIF that didn't even get blown.
high tackle (Kilkenny have been masters at winning frees from these for years)  Again suitably vague. I've already explained the variances here in actual play. They should be looked at differently. It became a high tackle because the small player dipped into him and made it a high tackle. The attacker bought the free. Here we are once again making the mistake of over reacting to the headline about the dangers of the high tackle with taking each tackle on its merit. I don't think that's fair. You're just making up the second bit. They were masters of many dark arts but I've no recollection of that one.
Henry or Cody can have no complaints I didn't hear any of them complaining

Cork were good value for their win yesterday. The cats looked battle weary and didnt deserve to get anything from yesterdays game

Horgan gets sent off in Munster final.


Cork appeal and get the red card rescinded.


Horgan gets MOM yesterday.


James Mc Grath says he'd do the same again tomorrow.  Here's the link -
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/standing-over-his-judgment-29454039.html


Refs board have backed Mc Grath to the hilt - see link.


Surely there's something wrong here.



PS Mc Grath will go far in refereeing with that kind of attitude. The final beckons shortly.

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:41:59 PM
Horgan gets sent off in Munster final.


Cork appeal and get the red card rescinded.


Horgan gets MOM yesterday.


James Mc Grath says he'd do the same again tomorrow.  Here's the link -
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/standing-over-his-judgment-29454039.html


Refs board have backed Mc Grath to the hilt - see link.


Surely there's something wrong here.



PS Mc Grath will go far in refereeing with that kind of attitude. The final beckons shortly.

McEnaney when he finally did comment on the Horgan issue rightly supported McGrath and commented on the fact that he and the referees had no say in the goings on in committee rooms speaks of a disconnect in the disciplinary process for sure;

"We're sticking to the matters that we've set out since the start of the year," said McEnaney. "James McGrath reported a player for striking. What happens outside of the job that we do, in the committee rooms, that's for other people to decide and we've no axe to grind.

"We'll be sticking to what the referees have been instructed to do and that is fellas being struck on the head with a hurley is a red card offence with us. It's a striking offence.

"Too many of these incidents have been happening and have been going without the punishment they deserve. We'll be continuing to do our job. The referees will be doing it the way we've asked them to do it. There will be no change of direction on our part. What goes on in board or committee rooms is none of my business."



The full article is in an previous post on this thread.

Quote from: orangeman on July 29, 2013, 12:41:59 PM
Horgan gets sent off in Munster final.


Cork appeal and get the red card rescinded.


Horgan gets MOM yesterday.


James Mc Grath says he'd do the same again tomorrow.  Here's the link -
http://www.independent.ie/sport/hurling/standing-over-his-judgment-29454039.html


Refs board have backed Mc Grath to the hilt - see link.


Surely there's something wrong here.



PS Mc Grath will go far in refereeing with that kind of attitude. The final beckons shortly.

I don't know about his 'attitude', to my mind there is no my-way-or-the-highway to his demeanour. In general though, you're right. Something is wrong when you have refs being told to do one thing, safe in the weaselly knowledge that yerra we can fix the mistake after the game.

Martin Breheny– 31 July 2013

If Henry Shefflin and Patrick Horgan are a problem, what's the solution? And if Barry Kelly and James McGrath are a solution, what's the problem?




Basically, it comes down to this: bad refereeing decisions may have cost Cork the Munster title and ended Kilkenny's reign as All-Ireland champions. Luckily for Horgan, who was sent off on a straight red card by McGrath in the Munster final, the decision was overturned so he was back for Cork's championship relaunch against Kilkenny last Sunday.

There can be no such reprieve for Shefflin, who was banished to the dug-out by Kelly just before half-time on a second yellow card last Sunday.

INNOCUOUS

Shefflin had picked up the first yellow for an innocuous offence, yet in the Clare-Galway game, Joe Canning was hauled to the ground by a rugby-style tackle by a Clare defender 10 minutes into the second half and didn't even get a free. Nor was the opponent sanctioned by referee Brian Gavin.

Same sport, different rules – any wonder players and spectators are frustrated? There will always be a degree of inconsistency but what has unfolded over the last few weeks is bringing hurling refereeing into disrepute. If it continues, disrepute will morph into a complete lack of respect for how the game is being administered.

If hurling supporters nationwide were surveyed three weeks ago on whom they thought most likely to be sent off over the next five games, it's most unlikely that anybody would have nominated Horgan or Shefflin.

If the same survey asked for two names who were likely to be the victims of sending-off offences, it's certain that Horgan and Shefflin would have figured prominently. Yet, in an unexpected role reversal, the pair were adjudged by two of the top referees to be sufficiently indisciplined as to merit dismissal.

Despite Horgan's red card having been rescinded, McGrath was still defending his decision last weekend, telling the 'Sunday Independent': "I can only base my decision on a split second and from what I saw at the time, I felt it was dangerous and I feel I made the right decision."

The truth is that he didn't have to make a split-second decision, as a referee is allowed to consult with linesmen and/or umpires "concerning infringement of the playing rules, in particular, rough or dangerous play, striking, hitting or kicking". That blows the split-second defence out of the water. McGrath could have sought a second opinion (Kelly and Gavin were linesmen) before making a call which possibly decided the outcome of one of the biggest games of the year.


As for Shefflin's first yellow card last Sunday, there were, in my opinion, several other incidents of a similar – or indeed more serious – nature which drew no sanction.

Of course, the only opinion that counts is that of the referee and his assistants (if he consults them) but surely the benefit of the doubt should go to the players in borderline cases such as those involving Shefflin and Horgan.

A comment like that usually draws accusations of a play for populism so here's the counter-argument. Galway's David Burke should have been sent off in the Leinster final for jabbing his hurley into Danny Sutcliffe after play had stopped, but referee Johnny Ryan let him off with a yellow.

Any mention of common sense draws hoots of derision from the refereeing classes as they point out that the term is nowhere to be found in the rule book. More's the pity.

Pierce Freaney, a man with vast experience in refereeing administration, questioned in a match programme recently what common sense meant.

"Is there a definition?" he asked. Surely the answer is in the words 'common sense'. Suffice to say, if referees used more of it and less of the hard case law which they find in a truly ludicrous rule book, there would be much less angst.

For example, it is an offence "to strike or to attempt to strike an opponent with a hurley". The sanction is a red card, with the suspension decided by the severity of the pull.

There's no reference to whether the strike is intentional, accidental or reckless, which means that if referees applied the rule to the letter of the law a player would be sent off virtually every time his hurley made contact with an opponent's body, in which case the only two left at the end would be the goalkeepers.

Referees use 'common sense' to get around that nonsense but not to avoid sending off the likes of Shefflin, Horgan and indeed Richie Hogan, who was red-carded in spurious circumstances in last year's All-Ireland quarter-final against Limerick. How daft is that?

Not that Breheny matters, in the broader scheme of things, but . . .

When he notes the pre-match likelihood of certain hurlers being sent off, and them cribs when hurlers of previous good record are then correctly sent off - is he possibly thinking that a list is drawn up - a list of hurlers who are of good disciplinary standing, and that these hurlers are to be exempt from the rules of hurling. 

They will be allowed to trip the helmet under a dropping ball, to 'flick' an opponent with the hurl and to effect neck-high challenges, all without censure.  They should also be allowed throw the ball in front of them when cornered.  And take as many steps as they like.  And run into the square ahead of penalties.

I note in Breheny's piece that Horgan's sending off "may have cost Cork".  There is no 'may have' when noting Kilkenny's defeat.  So MB is suggesting Kilkenny would have won had HS not been dismissed.  I mean, seriously?

Yeah, Justice for Henry.

Anyone hear Diarmuid Lyng on Newstalk on Tuesday evening give a player's perspective of Kilkenny's sneaky fouling?

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 01, 2013, 08:50:46 AM
Not that Breheny matters, in the broader scheme of things, but . . .

When he notes the pre-match likelihood of certain hurlers being sent off, and them cribs when hurlers of previous good record are then correctly sent off - is he possibly thinking that a list is drawn up - a list of hurlers who are of good disciplinary standing, and that these hurlers are to be exempt from the rules of hurling. 

They will be allowed to trip the helmet under a dropping ball, to 'flick' an opponent with the hurl and to effect neck-high challenges, all without censure.  They should also be allowed throw the ball in front of them when cornered.  And take as many steps as they like.  And run into the square ahead of penalties.

I note in Breheny's piece that Horgan's sending off "may have cost Cork".  There is no 'may have' when noting Kilkenny's defeat.  So MB is suggesting Kilkenny would have won had HS not been dismissed.  I mean, seriously?

Yeah, Justice for Henry.

Anyone hear Diarmuid Lyng on Newstalk on Tuesday evening give a player's perspective of Kilkenny's sneaky fouling?

What was the jist of his speak?

I've always said that Kilkenny had the half foul down to a tee, enough to prevent progress and momentum but not enough for the referee to blow the whistle.
It's a fine art, but its subtle and effective.

The jist was the 'half foul' you mentioned.  How, as he was going down to rise the ball in a Leinster Final, JJ gave him a subtle shove in the elbow, enough to make him look foolish as he missed rising the ball, but not enough to come to the attention of the referee.  And another case where he contested a dropping ball with Tommy when, with the ball in the sky Tommy held his hand, then released in time to catch the ball and clear.

Quote from: johnneycool on August 01, 2013, 08:55:17 AM
What was the jist of his speak?

I've always said that Kilkenny had the half foul down to a tee, enough to prevent progress and momentum but not enough for the referee to blow the whistle.
It's a fine art, but its subtle and effective.

What is his complaint on Richie Hogan's sending off v Limerick last year? He hit an opponent with a one handed stroke with the ball nowhere near. It was a blatant red card.
It's hard for referees to win. If they don't implement the rules they get criticised and if they do they are too strict!

Aah, it's just Martin 'Plain Daft' Breheny thinking "Brian (Cody), I want to be your very best friend".

Cody would buy and sell him.

The only yarn 'Plain Daft' could knock out of Cody for the book was the one about sweeping the dressing room floor with the broom.  A horrendous destruction of a rain forest.

Quote from: orangeman on July 31, 2013, 08:31:58 PM
There's no reference to whether the strike is intentional, accidental or reckless, which means that if referees applied the rule to the letter of the law a player would be sent off virtually every time his hurley made contact with an opponent's body, in which case the only two left at the end would be the goalkeepers.

This is the worst kind of straw man argument imaginable. The idea that every player gets hit by a strike from an opponent in every game, as opposed to coming into contact with an opponent's hurley, is garbage. The sooner we put a bit of artistry back into the game of hurling by encouraging players to get a nice clean contact with the ball and discouraging players swinging haymakers in its general direction, the better. Breheny, take your 'common sense' to the Daily Mail where you can write that it's common sense that a policeman never lies or that everyone on the dole just doesn't want to work.

Quote from: deiseach on August 01, 2013, 04:17:22 PM
. Breheny, take your 'common sense' to the Daily Mail where you can write that it's common sense that a policeman never lies or that everyone on the dole just doesn't want to work.

+1.
Mind you the words "Breheny" and "common sense" don't really sit too well together in one sentence  ;D

'Plain Daft' continues his "please Brian Cody, can I be your friend" campaign through the medium of the Cyril Farrell column today.  'Plain Daft' and Cyril have been best friends for almost 20 years now, since 'Plain Daft' ghosted Cyril's autobiography.

The Right to Win was a decent book all the same with lots of "it's just plain daft" throughout, and I guess 'Plain Daft' feels there is room for three in the relationship at this stage.  If only Brian would respond.

And the posh blond bird on the opposite page also has an opinion on the matter.  The Indo really are pushing this one. 

So please, Brian.  Give Martin a call.  Or sent a text.  Or a Whatsapp.  Or a tweet.  It would mean alot.

Refs can't win. Pat's zero tolerance plan to clean up hurling has left him red faced again.


Kilkenny's Henry Shefflin
09 AUGUST 2013

Reports from Kilkenny last night suggest that the red card received by Henry Shefflin in Kilkenny's All-Ireland SHC quarter-final defeat to Cork is to be rescinded


It is believed that Kilkenny's appeal to Croke Park has been upheld and that the first yellow card which Shefflin (above) received from referee Barry Kelly is to be rescinded, meaning that the subsequent red card is now voided.

The decision will make no difference to Kilkenny on the field as there are no suspensions for a second yellow card. However, it is believed that the principle of the matter was important to those involved.

Shefflin saw red just before half-time following a high tackle on Jamie Coughlan, which was his second caution, but it was the first booking that caused controversy.

The sending-off was Shefflin's first in 65 championship appearances spanning 14 seasons.

We have hawk eye, why not have video referee. Tennis or cricket style and give teams challenges, the first definitely wasn't a booking, but it happened so quickly and second from Henry was questionable at best, three years ago it would have never been a card.
I feel sorry for the referees, I really do. Hurling is such a fast game. They need all the help they can get, all the big games are videoed why not use a video review.

Quote from: orangeman on August 09, 2013, 09:25:41 AM
Refs can't win. Pat's zero tolerance plan to clean up hurling has left him red faced again.

Refs are being told to clean up the game then having their decisions second-guessed by the people who told them to clean up the game. I don't know why they bother.

Pat McEnaney won't be happy with Rushe being let off with yellow card yesterday for a blatant red card offence. Ref obviously didn't want to send 2 Dublin players off. First yellow for O'Dwyer was harsh I thought.
The 2 sending offs in the minor game were very harsh.

Quote from: waterfordlad on August 12, 2013, 11:19:37 AM
Pat McEnaney won't be happy with Rushe being let off with yellow card yesterday for a blatant red card offence. Ref obviously didn't want to send 2 Dublin players off. First yellow for O'Dwyer was harsh I thought.
The 2 sending offs in the minor game were very harsh.

Dalo is looking for O'Dwyer's card to be rescinded.

Owens knew yesterday that O'Dwyer's first yellow was harsh and bottled out of sending off Rushe for a clear strike.

So they're sending off lads for what are not yellow card offences ( cos they're being rescinded subsequent to the game ) and are not sending lads off for clear red cards.


It's time Pat stuck to football and hurling refs should go their own way and be headed by a past hurling ref like Dickie Murphy or someone like that.

Daithi 'hurling man' Regan weighs in.

http://www.thescore.ie/daithi-regan-they-need-to-leave-the-game-of-hurling-alone-1033458-Aug2013/

Daithi Regan: 'Referees are ruining hurling by treating it like football'

TheScore.ie's hurling columnist thinks a football mentality is ruining hurling refereeing.

Cork and Dublin put on an immense display of hurling and the two teams surpassed what we've seen in the Championship up to now. The hurling has been superb this year but yesterday was just an extraordinary game.
The range of scores, the skills on view, the atmosphere in the stadium and a game that was in the balance right up until the end. It had everything.

The one blight on what was an unreal game of hurling though was the referee because the sending off was huge. Ryan O'Dwyer was having a brilliant game. He has such a physical presence and he was winning ball over the field so when he went it had a massive impact on the game.
It reminded me of what happened in Cork's game with Kilkenny when Kilkenny had Henry Shefflin sent off and how Cork capitalised on that.

They play a very good system and they're set up to take advantage of the spare man so, once O'Dwyer received his second yellow, Dublin faced an uphill battle and there was no way they were going to be able to beat that Cork system.

Refereeing in hurling

The authorities need to leave the game of hurling alone. There's nothing wrong with hurling. The only issue with hurling is that you have former football referees in charge of the hurling referees.
That means hurling referees are being instructed to issue yellow cards for very little and we'd a hurling man sent off yesterday for two innocuous yellows and he never struck once with his hurl.
With respect to James Owens, he was operating to the letter of the law but the law's wrong and it ruined Dublin's chances so my advice to those in charge of hurling refereeing is that hurling is fine, we don't have a problem in our game.

There's a problem in football with the tackle, with cynical play and not just with the likes of Tyrone but with all teams. Hurling doesn't have that problem, we've a great game that doesn't need to be tampered with.
In hurling, you should only get sent off for pulling a stroke, hurling people know that and the top players don't go out to pull strokes, they go out to play the game they love.

Yesterday, Liam Rushe lashed out at his man in frustration and I'm glad he wasn't sent off but the referee copped out of the decision because he'd already sent one Dublin player off and he didn't want to send another one of the line.

Which is a direct contradiction of Rory Hanniffy's opinion on Championshio Matters last Thursday when RH pointed outt that there was cynical play in modern hurling, particularly under the dropping ball but that it was much more covert than the football 'rugby tackle' and more difficult to detect.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 12, 2013, 05:34:22 PM
Daithi 'hurling man' Regan weighs in.

http://www.thescore.ie/daithi-regan-they-need-to-leave-the-game-of-hurling-alone-1033458-Aug2013/

There's a problem in football with the tackle, with cynical play and not just with the likes of Tyrone but with all teams. Hurling doesn't have that problem, we've a great game that doesn't need to be tampered with.
In hurling, you should only get sent off for pulling a stroke, hurling people know that and the top players don't go out to pull strokes, they go out to play the game they love.

When something equivalent happens in football - like midfielders being tampered with under kick outs, there are all sorts of cries for the mark to be introduced or a limit on tacklers.
In hurling the casual eye doesn't notice and the insiders that do notice are often complicit.

The term "man's game" must be hurling's equivalent of Godwin's Law when it comes to rules discussion.

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 10:25:25 AM
Which is a direct contradiction of Rory Hanniffy's opinion on Championshio Matters last Thursday when RH pointed outt that there was cynical play in modern hurling, particularly under the dropping ball but that it was much more covert than the football 'rugby tackle' and more difficult to detect.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 12, 2013, 05:34:22 PM
Daithi 'hurling man' Regan weighs in.

http://www.thescore.ie/daithi-regan-they-need-to-leave-the-game-of-hurling-alone-1033458-Aug2013/

There's a problem in football with the tackle, with cynical play and not just with the likes of Tyrone but with all teams. Hurling doesn't have that problem, we've a great game that doesn't need to be tampered with.
In hurling, you should only get sent off for pulling a stroke, hurling people know that and the top players don't go out to pull strokes, they go out to play the game they love.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 10:33:31 AM
When something equivalent happens in football - like midfielders being tampered with under kick outs, there are all sorts of cries for the mark to be introduced or a limit on tacklers.
In hurling the casual eye doesn't notice and the insiders that do notice are often complicit.

The term "man's game" must be hurling's equivalent of Godwin's Law when it comes to rules discussion.

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 10:25:25 AM
Which is a direct contradiction of Rory Hanniffy's opinion on Championshio Matters last Thursday when RH pointed outt that there was cynical play in modern hurling, particularly under the dropping ball but that it was much more covert than the football 'rugby tackle' and more difficult to detect.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 12, 2013, 05:34:22 PM
Daithi 'hurling man' Regan weighs in.

http://www.thescore.ie/daithi-regan-they-need-to-leave-the-game-of-hurling-alone-1033458-Aug2013/

There's a problem in football with the tackle, with cynical play and not just with the likes of Tyrone but with all teams. Hurling doesn't have that problem, we've a great game that doesn't need to be tampered with.
In hurling, you should only get sent off for pulling a stroke, hurling people know that and the top players don't go out to pull strokes, they go out to play the game they love.

Its a different sport. The mistake the GAA makes is having people adjudicating on referees who don't know the working end of a hurley from a shovel.

You can't have the same rules for both codes because they are different games.

Hurling isn't blighted by the same ills football is. It has it's own problems but they are minor compared to football in my view.

The three sendings off in the last 3 games have been a joke.

OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Shefflin didn't deserve the line. It was lunacy. Common sense is part of refereeing.

The minor sending offs were a joke at the weekend as was ROD's

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Other exemptions:
Where the game was "an otherwise sporting contest"
The first yellow was picked up early on
The player has trained hard for several months
The player never got sent off before in his life
The team is already down to 14
The game is in the balance
The team are already losing heavily

None of these are in the rule book, but can be filed under 'Common sense'.

The lunacy was on Shefflin's part.  First he struck with the hurl.  The second he put the hurl around the man's neck.  And in case anyone thinks such fouls didn't warrant sanction before there were cards in red and yellow, I recall Roy Mannion being sent straight off 20 years ago for a similar challenge on Adrian Ronan.

I was at a match early on Sunday and didn't see the Minor sendings off.

Ryan O'Dwyer was corrently sent off for two frontal charges.  He can't have any excuses.

Explain common sense in the context of refereeing?  I was talking to a fella in a pub Friday night who said "Shefflin was harshly sent off - according to the rules he should have been, but really he shouldn't".  I mean, come on, like.

And would TV ever stop showing collisions in slow motion, making them look like they are little bumps.  Show them at normal speed.

And just because you don't see the cynical foul doesn't make it acceptable.  I'd accept the word of a current hurler like Rory Hanniffy (who is one of hurling's more stylish players) before I'd listen so some oul codger who gets paid to talk.

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 12:09:28 PM
Shefflin didn't deserve the line. It was lunacy. Common sense is part of refereeing.

The minor sending offs were a joke at the weekend as was ROD's

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Other exemptions:
Where the game was "an otherwise sporting contest"
The first yellow was picked up early on
The player has trained hard for several months
The player never got sent off before in his life
The team is already down to 14
The game is in the balance
The team are already losing heavily

None of these are in the rule book, but can be filed under 'Common sense'.

Are you prepared to listen to hurling fan's views or just post your own generalised rubbish which represents all of the above quoted post.

And still  no sign of anyone ever bringing motions to congress to legalise the frontal charge, tipping helmets, holding hands under the dropping ball, taking eight steps and other stuff that comes under 'common sense'.

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:36:56 PM
The lunacy was on Shefflin's part.  First he struck with the hurl.  The second he put the hurl around the man's neck.  And in case anyone thinks such fouls didn't warrant sanction before there were cards in red and yellow, I recall Roy Mannion being sent straight off 20 years ago for a similar challenge on Adrian Ronan.

I was at a match early on Sunday and didn't see the Minor sendings off.

Ryan O'Dwyer was corrently sent off for two frontal charges.  He can't have any excuses.

Explain common sense in the context of refereeing?  I was talking to a fella in a pub Friday night who said "Shefflin was harshly sent off - according to the rules he should have been, but really he shouldn't".  I mean, come on, like.

And would TV ever stop showing collisions in slow motion, making them look like they are little bumps.  Show them at normal speed.

And just because you don't see the cynical foul doesn't make it acceptable.  I'd accept the word of a current hurler like Rory Hanniffy (who is one of hurling's more stylish players) before I'd listen so some oul codger who gets paid to talk.

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 12:09:28 PM
Shefflin didn't deserve the line. It was lunacy. Common sense is part of refereeing.

The minor sending offs were a joke at the weekend as was ROD's

Number one - the first frontal charge hit the cork lad on the point of the shoulder. The fact that it was front or otherwise is a non-entity. The contact was on the shoulder. So it wasn't a yellow card. Plus a frontal shoulder charge is defined as being cautionable on the second offence in the rule book.

Number two. - I can't see how slight contact on the elbow which Shefflin was initially booked for = a yellow card. I never played a hurling game without getting a scratch and I picked many bangs and flicks from hurleys. That is not even a free IMO. A swipe is an entirely different animal which can injure a player and a player should be rightly cautioned for it.

If you don't like hurling follow something else would be my advice or feck off and watch football where you'll be introduced to divers day out instead of watching real men ply their trade which is what we got on Sunday.

The mistake the GAA make every year is thinking Gaelic Football and Hurling are the same sports because they exist under the same sporting organisation's umbrella. They have nothing in common except the size of  the pitch and the goal-posts.

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 12:37:30 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Other exemptions:
Where the game was "an otherwise sporting contest"
The first yellow was picked up early on
The player has trained hard for several months
The player never got sent off before in his life
The team is already down to 14
The game is in the balance
The team are already losing heavily

None of these are in the rule book, but can be filed under 'Common sense'.

Are you prepared to listen to hurling fan's views or just post your own generalised rubbish which represents all of the above quoted post.

At least we're both agreed that the above sentiments are generalised rubbish.  ;D
Pity there can't be a proper technical rules discussion with resort to generic and meaningless bluffery like "it's not gaelic football", "it's a man's game", "real men", "let the play flow".

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:02:27 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 12:37:30 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Other exemptions:
Where the game was "an otherwise sporting contest"
The first yellow was picked up early on
The player has trained hard for several months
The player never got sent off before in his life
The team is already down to 14
The game is in the balance
The team are already losing heavily

None of these are in the rule book, but can be filed under 'Common sense'.

Are you prepared to listen to hurling fan's views or just post your own generalised rubbish which represents all of the above quoted post.

At least we're both agreed that the above sentiments are generalised rubbish.  ;D
Pity there can't be a proper technical rules discussion with resort to generic and meaningless bluffery like "it's not gaelic football", "it's a man's game", "real men", "let the play flow".

There can't be a proper technical rules discussion with a clown like you because from your meanderings you don't understand the game.

You don't even know the rule book for God's sake.

Sunday was a magnificent spectacle of the best game in the world. But hurling has a problem with football referees sticking their noses in where its not needed.

Right back at ya.

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 01:07:11 PM
There can't be a proper technical rules discussion with a clown like you because from your meanderings you don't understand the game.

You don't even know the rule book for God's sake.

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 01:07:11 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:02:27 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 12:37:30 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Other exemptions:
Where the game was "an otherwise sporting contest"
The first yellow was picked up early on
The player has trained hard for several months
The player never got sent off before in his life
The team is already down to 14
The game is in the balance
The team are already losing heavily

None of these are in the rule book, but can be filed under 'Common sense'.

Are you prepared to listen to hurling fan's views or just post your own generalised rubbish which represents all of the above quoted post.

At least we're both agreed that the above sentiments are generalised rubbish.  ;D
Pity there can't be a proper technical rules discussion with resort to generic and meaningless bluffery like "it's not gaelic football", "it's a man's game", "real men", "let the play flow".

There can't be a proper technical rules discussion with a clown like you because from your meanderings you don't understand the game.

You don't even know the rule book for God's sake.

Sunday was a magnificent spectacle of the best game in the world. But hurling has a problem with football referees sticking their noses in where its not needed.

The rule book? Be careful what you wish for...

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:30:43 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 01:07:11 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:02:27 PM

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 12:37:30 PM

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 12:30:52 PM

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 12:07:35 PM
OK, is it now getting to the stage where certain players, certain actions in certain places should be exempt from sending off?

Top players (eg H Shefflin),
In a Munster Final,
In the first few minutes,
Minors.

Have I left anything out?

Other exemptions:
Where the game was "an otherwise sporting contest"
The first yellow was picked up early on
The player has trained hard for several months
The player never got sent off before in his life
The team is already down to 14
The game is in the balance
The team are already losing heavily

None of these are in the rule book, but can be filed under 'Common sense'.

Are you prepared to listen to hurling fan's views or just post your own generalised rubbish which represents all of the above quoted post.

At least we're both agreed that the above sentiments are generalised rubbish.  ;D
Pity there can't be a proper technical rules discussion with resort to generic and meaningless bluffery like "it's not gaelic football", "it's a man's game", "real men", "let the play flow".

There can't be a proper technical rules discussion with a clown like you because from your meanderings you don't understand the game.

You don't even know the rule book for God's sake.

Sunday was a magnificent spectacle of the best game in the world. But hurling has a problem with football referees sticking their noses in where its not needed.

The rule book? Be careful what you wish for...

Are ypu on the sauce?

Naah.  Let's use common sense here.  And let the game flow.  Be a man.  And layve in the hurl.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:30:43 PM
The rule book? Be careful what you wish for...

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 01:51:34 PM
Naah.  Let's use common sense here.  And let the game flow.  Be a man.  And layve in the hurl.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:30:43 PM
The rule book? Be careful what you wish for...

But let's apply the rule-book as it should be applied that would be a start.

Have you looked recently at what goes on under a football kick out? Have a gander an odd time

Quote from: INDIANA on August 13, 2013, 01:53:58 PM

Quote from: Plain of the Herbs on August 13, 2013, 01:51:34 PM
Naah.  Let's use common sense here.  And let the game flow.  Be a man.  And layve in the hurl.

Quote from: Bord na Mona man on August 13, 2013, 01:30:43 PM
The rule book? Be careful what you wish for...

But let's apply the rule-book as it should be applied that would be a start.

Have you looked recently at what goes on under a football kick out? Have a gander an odd time

In football, the problems are less about the rules and their enforcement, but more about the slowness at which play progresses and the negative tactics that this allows.

Hurling, while a great spectacle his much more illegality although more subtle in appearance.
Offences like taking extra steps, charging in possession, throwing handpasses, spare arm tackling, pulling opponents hurleys, shoves and tugs under the dropping ball.
It isn't a blight as yet, but the point blank refusal by some to acknowledge it is a long term concern imo.

Currently the understanding is that referees ignore most of these infringements and let teams at it. Player don't expect to get the free, so they work on the basis that if they are getting hauled back for example, they're better off to try and bull onwards through the grapple. They'll be given leeway by the ref to charge and take steps to make up for the illegality being perpetrated against them. It often ends up being a test of brute force strength. Two teams are goring each other is "passion".

Should it be this way?
The main crowers, the 'hurling men' seem to be the retired players and especially pundits who play up to the gallery at the best of times. Very often fellas who are out of the game 20+ years. It makes great macho copy too. 'I never needed a ref to protect me'. 'Arrrr, let them sort it out like men'.

I would be more interested in hearing the views of current players and specifically the more skilful players who generally don't rely on the laws of the jungle. Unfortunately these are the one group least likely to raise any concerns they might have.
Rory Hanniffy's subtle comments for example will go unnoticed. Not that he is ever going to shout it from the rooftops. After all the hecklers already have the other side of the see-saw stacked up with all this rhetoric about 'real men', 'man's game'. Is he really going he going to go against this and risk being branded the opposite. He has better things to be doing than drawing the stares of tv studio tough guys.

Diarmuid Lyng is another player who relied on his hurling arm more than his wrestling arm in his career. On Newstalk a few weeks ago he outlined some of the sly stuff that would be taking place. Not in a whinging way, but more of a matter of fact acceptance of the way has game has evolved.
All you need to do in hurling is illegally budge a fella's hand or hurley by a couple of inches for him to miss the ball. In football you need to a fair old displacement to mis-align the would be catcher which is very obvious to most observers.

If we drifted back towards using the rule book, I'd say we'd have a better spectacle. Clamp down on the use of the spare arm to pull back fellas. Make challenging players go back to trying to hunt for the ball like in previous years. For the player in possession, clamp down on thrown balls, charging and over carrying, meaning a greater incentive for challengers to bide their time and play the ball instead of the man.

And if we are going to use the rule book, would any of the 'hurling men' be brave enough to actually commit the acceptable behaviours of the current game into rule form.
For example instead the 4 steps rule, how about allowing 4 steps for the ball carrier to fight off a tackle and then 4 more steps after he has broken free of the tackle?
Or a 'tackle and release' rule, where you are allowed hold onto an opponent for 2 seconds with the spare arm, but you must release him at that point?
Or 'you can't red card a legend' rule where the referee would  be given a list beforehand of fellas he can't book.

I doubt any of the loudest shouters would take up the challenge. They'd rather speak in generics about 'common sense' – i.e. Allow the referee to completely pull it out of his arse as he sees fit. And blame gaelic football any time a referee dares do his job.

P.S. What's the obsession with folk continually calling hurling a "man's game". It's a tautology given the existence of camogie.

Great post BNMM and you're right about the way the game is refereed.
it's still a great spectacle but not really a fair one and it's the less athletic players, who would rely more on skill that suffer.

Currently playing (albeit in the 2nd team due to my advanced years) and refereeing at senior/interm/junior club level in Antrim.

Referees in all codes can only blow for the free they see and if a referee sees a throw ball he'll blow, the handpass in fairness is generally done properly, the tugging of hands/ jerseys/arms are usually spotted and once spotted and free given it usually doesn't happen again. I'll always allow a player to take more steps out of a tackle to keep the game flowing as it usually sets up a score, you can "slow whistle" if needs be to bring it back. The advantage rule is good when it works and shit when it doesn't, I tend to only give it in an attacking position as a defender would rather have the free and ability to clear their lines

There isn't a team field sport in the world were someone isn't going to chance his arm at winning a free or fouling someone to prevent a score, it's down to the referee to blow for what he thinks at that split second on a foul, we are too quick to give off about refereeing, they are not robots and neither are the players, if you count the amount of mistakes a player makes in a match compared to the referee then the ref isn't doing to bad.

I loved a game last week when the lad said that we would never get to the standard of Munster hurling if I am going to blow some of the pulling that was going on, I said that you'd need to lose about two stone and get fit and work on that terrible first touch you have!! this was a div 3 Antrim league game

Fair play to ya Milltown. It takes a brave man to ref a game, and like many things in life, it looks easy until you're actually doing it.

The main things I'd like to see sorted out are the spare arm tackle and the advantage rule. I was annoyed in the Galway v Clare game when Joe was blown up for overcarrying while the Clare defender had an arm across his body. There's nothing he can do in that situation. It would be nice to see the tackle clarified a bit more anyway. I like BNMM's idea of getting rid of the spare arm tackle while also getting stricter on the 4 steps rule.

Refs are trying to play advantage but it's impossible for them to judge whether one will accrue. I think a shorter version of the rugby advantage rule would work, where the ref has 3 seconds after the foul to call the play back if there is no advantage.

Quote from: Asal Mor on August 14, 2013, 10:13:28 AM
Fair play to ya Milltown. It takes a brave man to ref a game, and like many things in life, it looks easy until you're actually doing it.

The main things I'd like to see sorted out are the spare arm tackle and the advantage rule. I was annoyed in the Galway v Clare game when Joe was blown up for overcarrying while the Clare defender had an arm across his body. There's nothing he can do in that situation. It would be nice to see the tackle clarified a bit more anyway. I like BNMM's idea of getting rid of the spare arm tackle while also getting stricter on the 4 steps rule.

Refs are trying to play advantage but it's impossible for them to judge whether one will accrue. I think a shorter version of the rugby advantage rule would work, where the ref has 3 seconds after the foul to call the play back if there is no advantage.

Pat says you can have 3 seconds, "slow whistle" You really need 7/8 seconds if I'm being fair to the player on the ball.

I prefer to let the game go as much possible, easy frees are shirt pulling, blatant pushes, (a player can have his hand on someones back provided he doesn't push him) late/high pulls. Throw balls (providing you're in wrong postion) overhead pulls (some may deem it early pulls) are always difficult to give unless you're completely sure and you can't blow unless you're 100%.

Pet hate is defenders holding forwards, you can't see it as you are following the ball, once seen and dealt with, it usually stops. Other pet hate is slabbering players, Pat wanted to move the ball forward 30 yards, wasn't passed but when I was at a seminar in Croke he said make it as long a 13 yards forward as you want!! Suits me, I usually move it where I want to.

Aye, don't take any sh!t from them Milltown  :). What did you make of the red cards for Shefflin and O' Dwyer? I think the concession of a (sometimes scorable) free is enough of a punishment for clumsy fouls. No need to be  throwing out yellows unless it's dangerous or deliberate.

Quote from: Asal Mor on August 14, 2013, 05:34:54 PM
Aye, don't take any sh!t from them Milltown  :). What did you make of the red cards for Shefflin and O' Dwyer? I think the concession of a (sometimes scorable) free is enough of a punishment for clumsy fouls. No need to be  throwing out yellows unless it's dangerous or deliberate.

Very tight but I've seen them given. Once you give them though you need to be consistent!! I'm not there to make sure all players stay on the pitch, that's down to the players. I think talking during the match and pre warning players if things are simmering is the best method, doesn't always work but.....

My sentiments exactly. It's time Pat slung his hook and stopped meddling with hurling refs. Let him stick to the football. Let Dickie Murphy etc who know about hurling sort out hurling.


MARTIN BREHENY AND DONNCHADH BOYLE – 15 AUGUST 2013

GER Loughnane has accused the GAA of "doing its best to ruin one of the best hurling championships we've ever had" by adopting a hardline stance on refereeing and sending off players for relatively trivial offences.


His remarks came as an Irish Independent analysis of red cards in this year's championships shows that, on a proportionate basis, more hurlers than footballers have been dismissed.

That is most unusual since fouling is far more prevalent in football, thereby increasing the possibility of picking up two yellow cards, resulting in automatic dismissal.

However, the GAA has insisted that no 'get tough' policy was issued to hurling referees before the championship.

Thirteen hurlers have been sent off in the 27 hurling championship games so far, compared with 25 footballers in 58 games. That equates to one red card every 163 minutes in football as opposed to one every 158 minutes in hurling.

Loughnane believes that hurling referees are coming under pressure to take a harder line and has backed a call by Limerick manager John Allen for a split from football in this area.

"John Allen had a perfectly reasonable solution, that there should be a separate panel of referees for hurling and football and that the hurling referees should have their own co-ordinator. There is no comparison between the two games, or the refereeing of the two games. Everyone knows that," he said.

Former football referee Pat McEnaney (Monaghan) is head of the National Referees' Committee, which oversees both hurling and football, and Loughnane believes the system is not working and that hurling is being punished for the sins of Gaelic football.

There has been growing concern in hurling circles this year over what is perceived as a tougher line being taken by referees. Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny) and Ryan O'Dwyer (Dublin) were dismissed on two yellows over the past month, while Cork captain Patrick Horgan was sent off on a straight red in the Munster final.

He later had the red card rescinded by the GAA's disciplinary authorities, while Shefflin had one of the yellow cards he picked up against Cork in the All-Ireland quarter-final overturned, resulting in the dismissal being expunged from his record.

O'Dwyer, who was sent off against Cork last Sunday, is to make a similar attempt as there was considerable disquiet in the Dublin camp over his first booking, which came in the second minute.

Three high-profile dismissals in major games, two of which were later rescinded while the third awaits a hearing, inevitably leads to suspicion that a harder line is being taken.

"Pat McEnaney should have nothing to do with hurling referees as far as I'm concerned," said Loughnane.

"It should be Dickie Murphy (Wexford), Pat O'Connor (Limerick), solid referees that you had in recent times.

"They should be the men that hurling referees answer to, not McEnaney."

Red Cards – Championships 2013

Football (25 reds in 58 games)

Martin Penrose (Tyrone), Joe McMahon (Tyrone), Stephen O'Neill (Tyrone), Aidan O'Shea (Mayo), Eamonn McGee (Donegal), Conor Meredith (Laois), Kieran Hughes (Monaghan), Peter Kelly (Kildare), Sean Quigley (Fermanagh), Shane McCabe (Fermanagh), Martin Reilly (Cavan), Benny McArdle (Down), Kevin McKernan (Down), Kieran Martin (Westmeath), Michael Reidy (Limerick), John Riordan (Limerick), Neil Gallagher (Louth), John O'Brien (Louth), Neil McAdam (Antrim), John O'Loughlin (Laois), Barry Grogan (Tipperary), Gareth Bradshaw (Galway), Niall Coleman (Galway), David Givney (Cavan), Padraig McGoldrick (London).

Hurling (12 reds in 27 games)

Ryan O'Dwyer (Dublin), Henry Shefflin* (Kilkenny), Richie Power (Kilkenny), Patrick Horgan* (Cork), Bobby Kenny (Wexford), Andrew Shore (Wexford), Shane Kavanagh (Carlow), Jack Kavanagh (Carlow) twice, Paul Coady (Carlow), Karl Stewart (Antrim), Paul Fennell (Westmeath).

*Rescinded

Quote from: orangeman on August 15, 2013, 08:30:30 AM

My sentiments exactly. It's time Pat slung his hook and stopped meddling with hurling refs. Let him stick to the football. Let Dickie Murphy etc who know about hurling sort out hurling.


MARTIN BREHENY AND DONNCHADH BOYLE – 15 AUGUST 2013

GER Loughnane has accused the GAA of "doing its best to ruin one of the best hurling championships we've ever had" by adopting a hardline stance on refereeing and sending off players for relatively trivial offences.


His remarks came as an Irish Independent analysis of red cards in this year's championships shows that, on a proportionate basis, more hurlers than footballers have been dismissed.

That is most unusual since fouling is far more prevalent in football, thereby increasing the possibility of picking up two yellow cards, resulting in automatic dismissal.

However, the GAA has insisted that no 'get tough' policy was issued to hurling referees before the championship.

Thirteen hurlers have been sent off in the 27 hurling championship games so far, compared with 25 footballers in 58 games. That equates to one red card every 163 minutes in football as opposed to one every 158 minutes in hurling.

Loughnane believes that hurling referees are coming under pressure to take a harder line and has backed a call by Limerick manager John Allen for a split from football in this area.

"John Allen had a perfectly reasonable solution, that there should be a separate panel of referees for hurling and football and that the hurling referees should have their own co-ordinator. There is no comparison between the two games, or the refereeing of the two games. Everyone knows that," he said.

Former football referee Pat McEnaney (Monaghan) is head of the National Referees' Committee, which oversees both hurling and football, and Loughnane believes the system is not working and that hurling is being punished for the sins of Gaelic football.

There has been growing concern in hurling circles this year over what is perceived as a tougher line being taken by referees. Henry Shefflin (Kilkenny) and Ryan O'Dwyer (Dublin) were dismissed on two yellows over the past month, while Cork captain Patrick Horgan was sent off on a straight red in the Munster final.

He later had the red card rescinded by the GAA's disciplinary authorities, while Shefflin had one of the yellow cards he picked up against Cork in the All-Ireland quarter-final overturned, resulting in the dismissal being expunged from his record.

O'Dwyer, who was sent off against Cork last Sunday, is to make a similar attempt as there was considerable disquiet in the Dublin camp over his first booking, which came in the second minute.

Three high-profile dismissals in major games, two of which were later rescinded while the third awaits a hearing, inevitably leads to suspicion that a harder line is being taken.

"Pat McEnaney should have nothing to do with hurling referees as far as I'm concerned," said Loughnane.

"It should be Dickie Murphy (Wexford), Pat O'Connor (Limerick), solid referees that you had in recent times.

"They should be the men that hurling referees answer to, not McEnaney."

Red Cards – Championships 2013

Football (25 reds in 58 games)

Martin Penrose (Tyrone), Joe McMahon (Tyrone), Stephen O'Neill (Tyrone), Aidan O'Shea (Mayo), Eamonn McGee (Donegal), Conor Meredith (Laois), Kieran Hughes (Monaghan), Peter Kelly (Kildare), Sean Quigley (Fermanagh), Shane McCabe (Fermanagh), Martin Reilly (Cavan), Benny McArdle (Down), Kevin McKernan (Down), Kieran Martin (Westmeath), Michael Reidy (Limerick), John Riordan (Limerick), Neil Gallagher (Louth), John O'Brien (Louth), Neil McAdam (Antrim), John O'Loughlin (Laois), Barry Grogan (Tipperary), Gareth Bradshaw (Galway), Niall Coleman (Galway), David Givney (Cavan), Padraig McGoldrick (London).

Hurling (12 reds in 27 games)

Ryan O'Dwyer (Dublin), Henry Shefflin* (Kilkenny), Richie Power (Kilkenny), Patrick Horgan* (Cork), Bobby Kenny (Wexford), Andrew Shore (Wexford), Shane Kavanagh (Carlow), Jack Kavanagh (Carlow) twice, Paul Coady (Carlow), Karl Stewart (Antrim), Paul Fennell (Westmeath).

*Rescinded

What a ridiculous, phoned-in article.

The "Irish Independent analysis" of red cards actually shows that there is the same incidence of sending off in football and hurling since the difference between one red card every 158 mins vs. 163 mins is clearly insignificant. If there was just one more red card in football, that would mean one card every 157 minutes i.e. more often than hurling.

The bald assertion that "fouling is far more prevalent in football" is completely unsupported and is actually, for the reasons outlined in several other posts on this thread, probably untrue.

Ah, shur, if Martin 'Plain Daft' Breheny says it then it must be true.

I think McEnaney was annoyed at the amount of dangerous, straight red-card strokes which were missed or went unpunished last year, about 14 I think he said (10 or 11 of them by Padraig Maher when Kilkenny were giving Tipp a hiding  ;) . And that's what he was pushing refs to clamp down on. Fair enough too, I think we'd all  agree.  I don't think he'd have wanted players sent off for the kind of trivial offences that O' Dwyer and Shefflin committed, but that's an issue about which fouls merit a yellow card. Maybe Milltown could tell us what Pat's directives were on yellow cards, but I don't think the rest of us, including Loughnane, know what they were.

Quote from: Asal Mor on August 15, 2013, 12:59:41 PM
I think McEnaney was annoyed at the amount of dangerous, straight red-card strokes which were missed or went unpunished last year, about 14 I think he said (10 or 11 of them by Padraig Maher when Kilkenny were giving Tipp a hiding  ;) . And that's what he was pushing refs to clamp down on. Fair enough too, I think we'd all  agree.  I don't think he'd have wanted players sent off for the kind of trivial offences that O' Dwyer and Shefflin committed, but that's an issue about which fouls merit a yellow card. Maybe Milltown could tell us what Pat's directives were on yellow cards, but I don't think the rest of us, including Loughnane, know what they were.

He put up on the big screen a lot of the challenges that happened in last years championship and a few others in the league, he then put it to the floor to get referees to decide on what should have been given and if a card was warrented. He was very intimidating and forthright in his opinions on hurling and spoke like he knew nothing of hurling other than how the rules were not being implemented.

I spoke on a few of the fouls that were shown, got them wrong in his eyes but would still call them during a match, am I wrong? Yeah maybe not sure but as said you need to be hurling a a fair bit to grasp the rules and apply them, well that's what I think.

As I've said before, I've been playing for my club for many years, senior player for 20 odd years and managed the senior hurling team to a Club final in Croke park, have refereed the past 4/5 years so have a view on hurling and the rules, can't say I have the experience of Pat in refereeing but I'd have it on hurling. I think everyone knows a yellow card when they see it in hurling and a red card is even easier to spot, lets not mess around with it

I'd say if you've hurled that much then you're right to call it as you see it Milltown. I only hurled a couple of years myself, a year at u-16 and I went back playing junior for a year when I was older. Always regretted not playing more but that's just how it was. I'm still haunted by the junior county final in which I played a few days after getting back from a rough trip to Amsterdam. I was a pale shadow of my usual mediocre self and taken off at half-time. We lost anyway......

It seems to be fairly unanimous (bar a few dissenters on this board) among hurling people that some of the red cards this year have been unneccesary, and the refs need to take it easy with the cards. I think Pat was right about last year though. A few very dangerous strokes, a couple that left players with serious injuries, went unpunished.

Ex Kilkenny players marking Barry Kellys card for next year........

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/comerfords-bemoan-ref-conspiracy-against-cats-240672.html (http://www.examiner.ie/sport/comerfords-bemoan-ref-conspiracy-against-cats-240672.html)

http://gaabanter.ie/big-interview-martin-andy-comerford-on-limerick-v-clare-and-the-kilkenny-conspiracy/

Quote from: johnneycool on August 22, 2013, 11:59:24 AM
Ex Kilkenny players marking Barry Kellys card for next year........

http://www.examiner.ie/sport/comerfords-bemoan-ref-conspiracy-against-cats-240672.html (http://www.examiner.ie/sport/comerfords-bemoan-ref-conspiracy-against-cats-240672.html)

It was obvious.

(http://www.comeonthedeise.ie/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Obviously-Andy-Comerford.jpg)

Quote from: Asal Mor on August 15, 2013, 04:28:17 PM
It seems to be fairly unanimous (bar a few dissenters on this board) among hurling people that some of the red cards this year have been unneccesary, and the refs need to take it easy with the cards. I think Pat was right about last year though. A few very dangerous strokes, a couple that left players with serious injuries, went unpunished.

Didn't you get the memo? Everyone knows a yellow card when they see it in hurling and a red card is even easier to spot.

Quote from: deiseach on August 22, 2013, 01:07:49 PM

Quote from: Asal Mor on August 15, 2013, 04:28:17 PM
It seems to be fairly unanimous (bar a few dissenters on this board) among hurling people that some of the red cards this year have been unneccesary, and the refs need to take it easy with the cards. I think Pat was right about last year though. A few very dangerous strokes, a couple that left players with serious injuries, went unpunished.

Didn't you get the memo? Everyone knows a yellow card when they see it in hurling and a red card is even easier to spot.

It probably helped this year with KK going out early, therefore the level of dangerous/ rough fouls has dropped - coincidence I think not. Everyone is screaming about Henry getting the first yellow and it was for nothing. The player with the ball in hand left Henry for dead and his response was to strike the players hurl, BK (of whom I am no fan) was completely spot on giving the yellow for it, as it was a striking motion.

Henry and KK only have themselves to blame, the were caught on the hop and if they are looking to the refs then they are clutching at straws.

Nicky Brennan has been moaning about hurling refs also  ::)

The Kilkenny PR machine has been really slow this year!
Eddie Keher and Eddie O'Connor disappeared back in July.

A month after they get knocked out we hear a few grunts from Dumb and Dumber aka the Comerford brothers and Nickey Brennan...
Brennan who hasn't been seen or heard of since he groped the Queen in Croke Park 2 years.

Cody never even got around to making his annual threats to referees in the media.

This has been an annus horribilis for Kilkenny on the hurling and propaganda front.  ;D

 ;D You're some pr!ck PE. Fair bit of truth in it all the same. 

Quote from: deiseach on August 22, 2013, 01:07:49 PM

Quote from: Asal Mor on August 15, 2013, 04:28:17 PM
It seems to be fairly unanimous (bar a few dissenters on this board) among hurling people that some of the red cards this year have been unneccesary, and the refs need to take it easy with the cards. I think Pat was right about last year though. A few very dangerous strokes, a couple that left players with serious injuries, went unpunished.

Didn't you get the memo? Everyone knows a yellow card when they see it in hurling and a red card is even easier to spot.

This memo?

(http://www.onlineclubmembers.com/getPhoto.php?id=420)

                                                       
MEMO
TO: All hurling referees
FROM: Pat McEnaney
DATE:26/02/13
RE: Everyone knows a yellow card when they see it in hurling and a red card is even easier to spot.

Lads I've fcuked up, I have decided to let hurling men look after hurling, Dickie will be taking over and from now on and I'll stick to something I know, bogball.

I miss refereeing and scratching my nose before throwing the ball in the air at the start of every game!!

Today's 'Daily Cork'
http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/give-refs-more-freedom-241339.html

Liam Dunne wants referees to use less whistle.  Of course he would, after he sent out a team to sledge all before them against Dublin.  And as a player he hardly ever hit the ball when hitting the man would do. 

This is hardly news.  It might be newsworthy if Dunne took the opposite side of the argument, but not this.