http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19810907 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19810907)
This is absolutely heart wrenching, I have a 6 year old daughter and I dread to think what the poor family of April are going through - you have to pray the poor girl is alive. I hope and pray this turns out well.
Is there any chance that one of these horror stories could end with a happy ending? Like you I've a 5 year old and this type of thing fills me with rage. Hurting a child crosses a line in my view and the cops should be pulling out his finger nails to get him talking.
With the search going on along that river all day it is not a good sign :(
Terrible indeed. Please god that this does end happily, but as TS said its not good when the police are searching the river, and the guy who has been arrested was wearing water proof trousers, could be coincidental but only time will tell.
Shocking stuff altogether. Hope it ends well but not looking good.
This really is nightmare stuff.
Hope the child turns up safe and well.
These things rarely end well. If not sign after 24 hours then the odds are slim.
No punishment would be suitable enough for anyone that could harm a child in my opinion.
Sorry HS what I meant was that no punishment would be harsh enough but I guess you gathered that.
Was there a suggestion earlier in the week that the man who has been arrested had some previous history with similar offences? The police seemed to know who they were after anyway.
It begs the question about why these men are allowed to walk the streets unmonitored with paedophiles being relocated into communities and the locals not being made aware. These hoors should be walking round with bells around their necks, not being hidden in the community.
To go slightly off topic, reading the case of Jill Meagher earlier in the week where the rapist/murderer had something like 8 previous counts of rape on his rap sheet. At what point do you say, right that's enough he's not getting out. Personally, I'd have a one strike and you're out law, or in rather and not getting out. If you can rape anyone or molest a child once, that's in you for life and no prison sentence will reform you!
Quote from: screenmachine on October 03, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
Was there a suggestion earlier in the week that the man who has been arrested had some previous history with similar offences? The police seemed to know who they were after anyway.
It begs the question about why these men are allowed to walk the streets unmonitored with paedophiles being relocated into communities and the locals not being made aware. These hoors should be walking round with bells around their necks, not being hidden in the community.
To go slightly off topic, reading the case of Jill Meagher earlier in the week where the rapist/murderer had something like 8 previous counts of rape on his rap sheet. At what point do you say, right that's enough he's not getting out. Personally, I'd have a one strike and you're out law, or in rather and not getting out. If you can rape anyone or molest a child once, that's in you for life and no prison sentence will reform you!
All a bit black and white screen. A given on the child part* but what about some fella stitched up by a woman which seems to happen a fair deal.However if you are a repeat offender then you are a danger to society.
*I would go further and put a bullet in the back of their head.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 03, 2012, 10:26:10 PM
Quote from: screenmachine on October 03, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
Was there a suggestion earlier in the week that the man who has been arrested had some previous history with similar offences? The police seemed to know who they were after anyway.
It begs the question about why these men are allowed to walk the streets unmonitored with paedophiles being relocated into communities and the locals not being made aware. These hoors should be walking round with bells around their necks, not being hidden in the community.
To go slightly off topic, reading the case of Jill Meagher earlier in the week where the rapist/murderer had something like 8 previous counts of rape on his rap sheet. At what point do you say, right that's enough he's not getting out. Personally, I'd have a one strike and you're out law, or in rather and not getting out. If you can rape anyone or molest a child once, that's in you for life and no prison sentence will reform you!
All a bit black and white screen. A given on the child part* but what about some fella stitched up by a woman which seems to happen a fair deal.However if you are a repeat offender then you are a danger to society.
*I would go further and put a bullet in the back of their head.
The molesters of children in the city I live in have to register with the City as a sex offender, the neighbors of this scum are made aware of the fact that the scum is living in their area and the cops patrol those streets constantly, the sentences here are harsher but they do get out and get the opportunity to do this again.
Here is were I draw the line though, an underage boy was having sex with his underage girlfriend over a period of a year, her mother hated the kid and the day after he came of legal age she shopped him to the cops and he was arrested as a paedo, tried and convicted and is now a registered sex offender, to me that is fecking wrong and this poor bastard, now about 24 just got out and is a pariah, living among scum that are actually molesters, you would have thought someone along the line would have had the stones to say that this case was all wrong.
Quote from: stew on October 03, 2012, 10:55:50 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 03, 2012, 10:26:10 PM
Quote from: screenmachine on October 03, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
Was there a suggestion earlier in the week that the man who has been arrested had some previous history with similar offences? The police seemed to know who they were after anyway.
It begs the question about why these men are allowed to walk the streets unmonitored with paedophiles being relocated into communities and the locals not being made aware. These hoors should be walking round with bells around their necks, not being hidden in the community.
To go slightly off topic, reading the case of Jill Meagher earlier in the week where the rapist/murderer had something like 8 previous counts of rape on his rap sheet. At what point do you say, right that's enough he's not getting out. Personally, I'd have a one strike and you're out law, or in rather and not getting out. If you can rape anyone or molest a child once, that's in you for life and no prison sentence will reform you!
All a bit black and white screen. A given on the child part* but what about some fella stitched up by a woman which seems to happen a fair deal.However if you are a repeat offender then you are a danger to society.
*I would go further and put a bullet in the back of their head.
The molesters of children in the city I live in have to register with the City as a sex offender, the neighbors of this scum are made aware of the fact that the scum is living in their area and the cops patrol those streets constantly, the sentences here are harsher but they do get out and get the opportunity to do this again.
Here is were I draw the line though, an underage boy was having sex with his underage girlfriend over a period of a year, her mother hated the kid and the day after he came of legal age she shopped him to the cops and he was arrested as a paedo, tried and convicted and is now a registered sex offender, to me that is fecking wrong and this poor b**tard, now about 24 just got out and is a pariah, living among scum that are actually molesters, you would have thought someone along the line would have had the stones to say that this case was all wrong.
There were 2 evil cnuts sent away fpr about 7 years each last week for dragging a 14 year old boy into a shopping centre toilets and raping him. Those fcukers should be made to dig their own grave, kneel down beside it and take a bullet in the back of the head. Waste of oxygen and the taxpayer has to pay to put them up at Her Majesty's Pleasure.
If only Longrunsthefox was still a board member.............
This man was a local? I assume people in the area knew who he was.
Quote from: screenmachine on October 03, 2012, 09:47:26 PM
Was there a suggestion earlier in the week that the man who has been arrested had some previous history with similar offences? The police seemed to know who they were after anyway.
It begs the question about why these men are allowed to walk the streets unmonitored with paedophiles being relocated into communities and the locals not being made aware. These hoors should be walking round with bells around their necks, not being hidden in the community.
To go slightly off topic, reading the case of Jill Meagher earlier in the week where the rapist/murderer had something like 8 previous counts of rape on his rap sheet. At what point do you say, right that's enough he's not getting out. Personally, I'd have a one strike and you're out law, or in rather and not getting out. If you can rape anyone or molest a child once, that's in you for life and no prison sentence will reform you!
I always find it strange when you read the papers and see someone done for something and the person has 96 previous convictions. Irrelevant of the crime, there should be a threshold whereby a repeat offender is shipped away for good.
shipped away for good... now thats an idea. Somewhere like a jail in Mozambique or Malawi would make these cnuts think twice maybe? San Quentin would be too good for them
Any convicted sex offenders of kids should be put away on some remote North sea island, and let them fend for themselves. They can rape and kill themselves off all they like, and there wouldn't be much fuss about it on the news or from the general public.
Sex offenders of adults should be kept in jail for life, might not stop the offences happening but the same people won't be repeating the offences when they get out
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
Any convicted sex offenders of kids should be put away on some remote North sea island, and let them fend for themselves. They can rape and kill themselves off all they like, and there wouldn't be much fuss about it on the news or from the general public.
Sex offenders of adults should be kept in jail for life, might not stop the offences happening but the same people won't be repeating the offences when they get out
What?
Oh you'd prefere them let out on the street afterwards, when they are reformed? When/if you have kids in the future you'll understand.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
Any convicted sex offenders of kids should be put away on some remote North sea island, and let them fend for themselves. They can rape and kill themselves off all they like, and there wouldn't be much fuss about it on the news or from the general public.
Sex offenders of adults should be kept in jail for life, might not stop the offences happening but the same people won't be repeating the offences when they get out
What?
Oh you'd prefere them let out on the street afterwards, when they are reformed? When/if you have kids in the future you'll understand.
I think you've watched The Running Man too many times.
Quote from: Syferus on October 04, 2012, 10:32:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
Any convicted sex offenders of kids should be put away on some remote North sea island, and let them fend for themselves. They can rape and kill themselves off all they like, and there wouldn't be much fuss about it on the news or from the general public.
Sex offenders of adults should be kept in jail for life, might not stop the offences happening but the same people won't be repeating the offences when they get out
What?
Oh you'd prefere them let out on the street afterwards, when they are reformed? When/if you have kids in the future you'll understand.
I think you've watched The Running Man too many times.
Yes very radical but these perverts don't need to be released, watching updates on the news and it's heartbreaking, 5 year old ffs
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 10:36:08 PM
Quote from: Syferus on October 04, 2012, 10:32:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 07:23:22 PM
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 02:21:56 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 04, 2012, 02:14:11 PM
Any convicted sex offenders of kids should be put away on some remote North sea island, and let them fend for themselves. They can rape and kill themselves off all they like, and there wouldn't be much fuss about it on the news or from the general public.
Sex offenders of adults should be kept in jail for life, might not stop the offences happening but the same people won't be repeating the offences when they get out
What?
Oh you'd prefere them let out on the street afterwards, when they are reformed? When/if you have kids in the future you'll understand.
I think you've watched The Running Man too many times.
Yes very radical but these perverts don't need to be released, watching updates on the news and it's heartbreaking, 5 year old ffs
Absolutely. And the worst part is if they don't have enough evidence to charge him he could well be back on the street by Saturday.
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 11:11:28 PM
Milltown, just because I think your idea is completely fcuked up doesn't mean I want these cnuts running about the streets. Why would it??
Perhaps I will come around to the idea of sending them to a North Sea island when/if I have kids, though, I can't see it.
Ok what would you prefer? Is the current system doing a grand job?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 11:11:28 PM
Milltown, just because I think your idea is completely fcuked up doesn't mean I want these cnuts running about the streets. Why would it??
Perhaps I will come around to the idea of sending them to a North Sea island when/if I have kids, though, I can't see it.
Ok what would you prefer? Is the current system doing a grand job?
There has to be some alternative to the current prison system in the UK, where the worst of our kind go and live and can have a pretty comfortable existence when they don't deserve anything but the opposite. I don't see why prisoners aren't fed a basic diet, made to do hard labour all day every day and really are punished. As I have said before, there is too much emphasis put on rehabilitation - it seems to be a case now that if someone commits a horrific crime, several years later the criteria that is being thwon about as to whether they should be released is not the price of the life that they have ruined/ended, but whether or not they have been made better and are no longer a threat. That shouldn't be the case, if you rape or murder someone, you should never be let out full stop. Can someone even tell me why there is a 'life sentence' when it obviously is the most contradictive sentence there is?
As for your man arrested for the April Jones abduction, I had mentioned yesterday that its a joke how depending on the agenda that the police can decide to name a fella they have arrested. Its all well and good if they go on to prove without a doubt with hard evidence that he is the culprit, but by naming him in the mdeia every tom, dick and harry now believes he is the culprit yet they don't seem to have a lot of, if any, evidence.
As for sticking them all in an island up above Scotland or wherever, I have heard worse ideas.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 09:54:40 AM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 09:31:50 AM
Quote from: hardstation on October 04, 2012, 11:11:28 PM
Milltown, just because I think your idea is completely fcuked up doesn't mean I want these cnuts running about the streets. Why would it??
Perhaps I will come around to the idea of sending them to a North Sea island when/if I have kids, though, I can't see it.
Ok what would you prefer? Is the current system doing a grand job?
There has to be some alternative to the current prison system in the UK, where the worst of our kind go and live and can have a pretty comfortable existence when they don't deserve anything but the opposite. I don't see why prisoners aren't fed a basic diet, made to do hard labour all day every day and really are punished. As I have said before, there is too much emphasis put on rehabilitation - it seems to be a case now that if someone commits a horrific crime, several years later the criteria that is being thwon about as to whether they should be released is not the price of the life that they have ruined/ended, but whether or not they have been made better and are no longer a threat. That shouldn't be the case, if you rape or murder someone, you should never be let out full stop. Can someone even tell me why there is a 'life sentence' when it obviously is the most contradictive sentence there is?
As for your man arrested for the April Jones abduction, I had mentioned yesterday that its a joke how depending on the agenda that the police can decide to name a fella they have arrested. Its all well and good if they go on to prove without a doubt with hard evidence that he is the culprit, but by naming him in the mdeia every tom, dick and harry now believes he is the culprit yet they don't seem to have a lot of, if any, evidence.
As for sticking them all in an island up above Scotland or wherever, I have heard worse ideas.
Like the fella below. I haven't followed the case too closely and don't know what evidence there is against him (other than the land rover which I think is based on a vague description by some other young kids who were playing with the wee girl) but the police have "stressed that he was just one of several lines of inquiry." It could be that he is guilty as sin* but if he's not then his life could be ruined by this.
* In that case, I'd be inclined to go with MR2's suggestion
(http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/chris-jefferies2.jpg)
Looking for the body now by the sounds of that police statement.
Bridges has been charged with murder.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19843337
Quote from: LeoMc on October 05, 2012, 10:44:06 AM
Bridges has been charged with murder.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19843337
He hasn't been charged yet.
Quote from: Minder on October 05, 2012, 11:11:49 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 05, 2012, 10:44:06 AM
Bridges has been charged with arrested on suspicion of murder.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19843337
He hasn't been charged yet.
Corrected. I wondered why Sky news were saying they still had only until this afternoon to question him.
IF he is guilty (it's looking more and more likely he is) of abducting poor April and the police have had him in custody for 3 days why the hell have they not got it out of him what has happened to her and where she is. If he has done this and sat in police custody for 3 days it makes him a 100 times more sick (if that's possible) that he can sit there knowing where she is and that he can bring this to a close for everyone asap but is prepared to drag it out for as long as possible. There are some sick b*****ds out there esp. those that can commit a crime against a child. I would consider myself fairly liberal in my thinking but when it comes to crimes against children I'd argue that there is no punishment too much for these sickos.
Kay Burley doing a Geoff Shreeves
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=lrml2jVJ4ao&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dlrml2jVJ4ao%26feature%3Dyoutu.be&gl=GB
She is a nasty piece of work that Burley one is.
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on October 05, 2012, 11:24:00 AM
IF he is guilty (it's looking more and more likely he is) of abducting poor April and the police have had him in custody for 3 days why the hell have they not got it out of him what has happened to her and where she is. If he has done this and sat in police custody for 3 days it makes him a 100 times more sick (if that's possible) that he can sit there knowing where she is and that he can bring this to a close for everyone asap but is prepared to drag it out for as long as possible. There are some sick b*****ds out there esp. those that can commit a crime against a child. I would consider myself fairly liberal in my thinking but when it comes to crimes against children I'd argue that there is no punishment too much for these sickos.
I think it is possible he has admitted it and said he has dumped he in the river. All the police searches seem to be in or around the river.
How sad is this.
Shocking.
Quote from: orangeman on October 05, 2012, 01:51:27 PM
How sad is this.
Shocking.
But hey here's the thing, whoever done it and (hopefully) gets caught will be allowed out at some point to do it again and again. Some on here would question why they should be kept in for life
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But he never answered my question as to what he'd prefer the Judaical system does with these things. So he's possibly into reform and rehabilitation, it seems that it doesn't work, and there have been countless stories of these things getting out and committing assaults again.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Totally agree, cracking rocks with a hammer 7 days a week 12 hours a day until they die. Bread and water twice a day.
Quote from: gerrykeegan on October 05, 2012, 01:14:24 PM
She is a nasty piece of work that Burley one is.
And a complete idiot to boot ... who can forget her 9/11 classic ... "The whole of the eastern seaboard of the United States has been devastated by a terrorist attack."
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Sitting in prison we are paying for them!
Castrate them and release them to face justice.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Not sure about the high quality menu. A friend of mine did 6 months in Castlerea and he said the food was sh!te.
I agree with Leo Mc. Castration should be used as part of the punishment for serious sex offences. It's logical and a real punishment / deterrent. We're too soft on these people - excuse the lame pun.
Quote from: EC Unique on October 05, 2012, 04:38:02 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Totally agree, cracking rocks with a hammer 7 days a week 12 hours a day until they die. Bread and water twice a day.
why only 12 hours, there is another 12 in the day. and bread and water once would suffice !!
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 05, 2012, 09:02:56 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMBut is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years
If you're convicted and sent to jail on a charge which involves a sexual assault on a child, your time is going to be anything but comfortable - other prisoners will mark you down as the lowest of the low and you'll have to watch your back every day against other inmates. Ian Huntley is hardly having a comfortable life having been attacked with boiling water & sugar (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/west_yorkshire/4248052.stm) and getting his throat slashed, (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8579226.stm) for example. Certainly enough for him to attempt suicide (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7019402.stm) it seems. You can also have Mitchell Harrison (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-18808886) who was disemboweled by two fellow prisoners last year, or Colin Hatch (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-humber-12549804) (someone where the English justice system did not take enough heed of warning signs and who did commit multiple offences) who was also murdered in prison last year.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMwhere they can further their education
If there is a possibility that they have a possible due date for release in the future, surely it's not the worst of ideas for them to spend some time studying so that if they are eventually released, they have a better chance of finding work and being a constructive person, lessening the risk of reoffending? Besides many of them will be on the sex-offenders register for life so they'll find it impossible to get work in certain areas e.g. a school, social worker.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMwatch as much TV as they want
That depends on circumstances - if they're locked up for much of the day then they might see no television at all, or at best watch in a communal room if they dare go there. After a period of several months or years, they may be allowed a TV in their cell as a reward for good behaviour but of course this could be taken away again.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMuse the Gym
Very much doubt they would venture near one unless they have a sympathetic "heavy" who can protect them. If they can use one, at least exercise can help fend off physical and mental health troubles that could be problematic further down the line.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMhave a pretty high quality menu for meal times
Who do you think sets the menu and does the cooking in prisons? Jamie Oliver? Prison food is pretty basic, bland stuff. There may be the odd "special" e.g. Christmas dinner, but if you're in prison for child sex/murder offences you'll be eating on your own.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMuse the internet etc
Prisoners in the UK are not permitted to have internet access.
QuoteUse of computers and the internet in prison Prisoners cannot use the internet while in prison
Prisoners aren't allowed to use computers or the internet to send or receive emails.
They are also not allowed to use or update any social networking website (for example, Facebook or Twitter) while in prison, either:
- personally
- by asking you or someone else outside prison to do it on their behalf
http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Sentencingprisonandprobation/Familyandfriendsofprisoners/DG_196213 (http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/CrimeJusticeAndTheLaw/Sentencingprisonandprobation/Familyandfriendsofprisoners/DG_196213)
At best some prisoners are allowed use of a communal computer at the prison for educational purposes but still cannot access the internet - the only possible time would be indirectly in association with a prison officer or other appointed person for research only, or to look for Job Centre vacancies in a few open prisons. There have been stories of prisoners updating Facebook profiles in prison - that's being done with contraband normally with smartphones being smuggled in - a problem that's not easy to eradicate as jammers (regardless of their legality) can cause interference beyond the prison perimeter and not cover all of the prison itself. Once idea being piloted in the USA is for mobile phone operators to have special base stations next to the prison which monitor all traffic and can also allow only specially registered mobile phones to connect to the base stations - if an illicit phone is detected, the operator can blacklist the phone and sim card.
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PMinstead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Well as I said at the start, it isn't exactly heaven for such convicted criminals - not that I personally think it should be. Child abusers/molesters/killers IMO should be locked away for a long time as appropriate for a defined minimum period and only released if it can be seen that their chances of reoffending are very minimal (rehabilitation results of 100% are impossible to achieve, you can only try to get close to that figure. Many of the serious ones will never be released - those that do having been convicted for life terms are let on on licence (similar to paramilitary prisoners released through the GFA) who can be called back to prison at any time if they break the law.
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 05, 2012, 05:40:38 PMI agree with Leo Mc. Castration should be used as part of the punishment for serious sex offences. It's logical and a real punishment / deterrent. We're too soft on these people - excuse the lame pun.
As I said in a previous post, quite often in law the punishment doesn't act as an effective deterrent unless the punishment is very draconian - even then plenty of people will take the risks involved; more often it is the fear of getting caught that is a deterrent. Take for example speeding motorists - a lot will often exceed the designated speed limit in some places they travel but if there is a sign that there is someone to enforce it about e.g. a visible speed camera or police patrol, they'll slow down so they don't get caught. Sometimes this won't work for them, they're caught and hit with a fixed £60 fine. Most caught out that way will grumble and pay up, but will it stop the offender from breaking speed limits again? More than likely it won't - they'll just try and not get caught again. Let's jack the penalty right up to say £600. That might convince some such motorists to keep within the speed limits at all times but the others will still be happy enough to risk it. Even with harsher penalties again they'll still be a pool of risk takers for whom the punishment itself doesn't wholly deter them. They're just playing a game of cat and mouse of not getting caught. Even the treat of your vehicle being impounded and fines to be paid because you're caught running it with red or green diesel doesn't deter quite a few people as we've seen on this board.
But back on to the subject itself, it means that those who are molesting children simply play the game in a similar way. They know the risks of what will happen to them if they're caught but it does little to deter them. They instead focus on lessening the risk of getting caught. In decades gone by one of the methods often used was to get yourself into a position of power and/or privilege where if you're not caught red handed, your social status means that any accuser runs the risk of not being taken seriously not to mention possible cover-ups by those responsible for them to prevent possible guilt by association. We've seen this with the recent allegations on Jimmy Savile. Gary Glitter managed to keep a low profile until he was foolish enough to get his computer fixed up rather than destroy it. It shouldn't be needed to go into too much detail about the covering up of abuses by the hierarchy of the Irish Catholic church, while over in the United States you have the Jerry Sandusky case and the cover up over his actions at Penn State over the years. Arguably nowadays it is more difficult for such persons to get into such positions due to criminal checks, registers etc but again it's not failsafe.
As to the option of castration - chemical castration is sometimes used on sex offenders in a few parts of the globe either as a voluntary bargain for parole, or as a mandatory compliance on release in certain cases. It's one that could certainly be looked into more often as part of terms of prisoner release.
All of your explanations will mean fook all to the families of the kids that will never see them watch tv, play in the street, eat their dinners or further their education, get married, have their own kids!! All taken by the lowest scum every to be formed by, well whoever.
So to put it bluntly, they are still living a life, a life this little girl never got a chance to have
Having said that its a pretty good post.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 05, 2012, 09:38:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 09:11:23 PMAll of your explanations will mean fook all to the families of the kids that will never see them watch tv, play in the street, eat their dinners or further their education, get married, have their own kids!! All taken by the lowest scum every to be formed by, well whoever.
What would make you think that I haven't been affected in a similar way?
Unfortunately nothing that is handed down as punishment to child murderers will ever bring back loved ones. It's not my position to explain what motivates such people to do such acts. There are hundreds of thousands of families across the world whose children have disappeared who have been abused, murdered, human trafficked, forced into slavery etc. I'm sure many of us are thankful that they are not in such a position to face the emotions that go with it. There is plenty of evil in the world, some universally recognised as such and others who commit evil while portraying themselves as saints. There but for the grace of God.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 09:11:23 PMSo to put it bluntly, they are still living a life, a life this little girl never got a chance to have
True. But to some in differing circumstances not all life is worth living for.
I've never stated you or anyone on here has been affected by things such as this, my problem is with the Judical system, they keep letting these guys out after they have done some terrible crimes, by your own post these people keep re-offending and won't be rehabilitated.
There is plenty of evil in this world no doubt but the evil that has happened in Wales and elsewhere like that can be stopped. Life for life in those circumstances or as I posted before some rotten hole away da fook from society, and if the libs complain, let them look after them.
That's just my view
In all the calls for harsher sentances there still has to be a step change between the sentances for sexual offences and those for murder otherwise there is an element of "May as well be hug for a sheep as a lamb"
By treating the differing offences with the same severity there is a risk that the offender (a more appropriate term would be un-printable) will realise that murder will not increase the punishment but will reduce the risk of getting caught.
Murder should mean a life sentance (no parole) whilst Sexual offence mean should mean castration.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 05, 2012, 11:14:14 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 10:03:18 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 05, 2012, 09:38:30 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 09:11:23 PMAll of your explanations will mean fook all to the families of the kids that will never see them watch tv, play in the street, eat their dinners or further their education, get married, have their own kids!! All taken by the lowest scum every to be formed by, well whoever.
What would make you think that I haven't been affected in a similar way?
Unfortunately nothing that is handed down as punishment to child murderers will ever bring back loved ones. It's not my position to explain what motivates such people to do such acts. There are hundreds of thousands of families across the world whose children have disappeared who have been abused, murdered, human trafficked, forced into slavery etc. I'm sure many of us are thankful that they are not in such a position to face the emotions that go with it. There is plenty of evil in the world, some universally recognised as such and others who commit evil while portraying themselves as saints. There but for the grace of God.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 05, 2012, 09:11:23 PMSo to put it bluntly, they are still living a life, a life this little girl never got a chance to have
True. But to some in differing circumstances not all life is worth living for.
I've never stated you or anyone on here has been affected by things such as this, my problem is with the Judical system, they keep letting these guys out after they have done some terrible crimes, by your own post these people keep re-offending and won't be rehabilitated.
There is plenty wrong with the judicial system on many different levels too IMHO - I've moaned often enough about it. However "these people keep re-offending and won't be rehabilitated" is a sweeping blanket statement - some sex offenders do reform themselves while in prison and don't offend again upon release (however such cases don't tend to end up in the media as they don't tend to make good stories that either sell papers or bring in ratings), though it is worth saying that such offenders tend to be among the hardest to rehabilitate. The case of Colin Hatch was one that took place over the 80's & early 90's - two decades on, research into profiling such criminals has got better and such risks in the community are now reduced.
QuoteThere is plenty of evil in this world no doubt but the evil that has happened in Wales and elsewhere like that can be stopped. Life for life in those circumstances or as I posted before some rotten hole away da fook from society, and if the libs complain, let them look after them.
That's just my view
You're going to have to then show that the punishment you propose would have stopped the incident in question. Beyond a certain point, increasing the harshness of a punishment or penalty does very little to deter someone committing a crime. The death penalty in much of the United States hasn't done much to reduce murder rates there (a classic example). Harsh punishments for drug smugglers in south-east Asia doesn't deter quite a few westerners into getting involved for the money. Going back to my speeding analogy - if you are caught and hit with a £60 fine, more than likely that for the next couple of weeks you might be cautious but sooner or later you'll fall back into the previous habits. However if you get hit with three £60 fines in the space of a month, then your caution with regard to your speed is likely to last more than a couple of weeks after the third time because you've been hit by the realisation that there is now an increased risk of you being caught speeding when you're doing so and the fines will start to add up. Compare that to say being hit with a £180 fine for only one speeding fine - it is a harsher punishment than £60 but if the perceived risk of getting caught again is low i.e. the same as it was before, the chances of reforming habits is less likely to happen compared to getting hit with three £60 fines. Therefore my point and opinion is that increasing the chances of someone getting caught doing an offence - provided that the expected punishment is deemed to be punitive enough - is generally more effective that increasing the expected harshness of the sentence but where no extra effort is made to increase the chances of someone caught doing the offence. It has nothing to do with "libs", conservatism, socialism, authoritarianism, libertarianism etc. it is about reducing rates of crime in communities which I would dare say most people would welcome as a positive. Clearly the prevention is better than dealing with the aftermath. From what I've read about Mark Bridger's profile in the media, he doesn't appear to have been on a sex-offenders register, been convicted in the past of any related offence and indeed has children of his own a couple of whom played with April Jones in the past. That doesn't fit classic descriptions of a child murderer or molester to me so it's difficult to see how standard procedures such as the sex offenders register would work there. Maybe if he is charged with murder more details of his background will come out. Sometimes these incidents can come out of nowhere. Unfortunately almost nothing is 100% preventable.
It may not be preventable but that person won't be able to commit any more crimes, so one less pervert to worry about. As for Bridger, he may not be the classic fit though we don't really know yet.
Again you put up a descriptive post with plenty of good advice but unless you find a cure for this then I'd rather they were out of sight forever
If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 06, 2012, 12:11:37 AM
If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.
It appears paedophilia is not treatable or curable, there's increasing evidence that would the equivalent of trying to cure someone of heterosexuality for instance. I don't know what the medical evidence is for chemical castration as a way of removing these drives, as I imagine that research would be highly controversial, but surely, given everything written above, it would be worth persuing, and I imagine there would volunteers for altruistic (genuinely wanting to be cured) and non-altruistic (wanting to be released early) reasons.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 01:17:51 AM
Quote from: Mentalman on October 06, 2012, 12:24:03 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 06, 2012, 12:11:37 AM
If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.
It appears paedophilia is not treatable or curable, there's increasing evidence that would the equivalent of trying to cure someone of heterosexuality for instance. I don't know what the medical evidence is for chemical castration as a way of removing these drives, as I imagine that research would be highly controversial, but surely, given everything written above, it would be worth persuing, and I imagine there would volunteers for altruistic (genuinely wanting to be cured) and non-altruistic (wanting to be released early) reasons.
Those convicted of paedophilia are difficult to reform to prevent reoffending. Not impossible but quite low which it's why it's seen that such prisoners are a lost cause as traditional prison rehabilitation techniques have little effect. Essentially they have a form of psychological addiction that is deemed threatening to others, some through genetics, others by environmental factors in a similar fashion to spouse abuse where the offender wants to break clean but just can't.
In terms of chemical castration, my reading of it is that there is still some way for it to go before it could be considered for widespread use especially as some side effects to treatment have been noticed, and while those that follow the course have a very high rate of not reoffending, it is not quite 100%. A quick google throws up some interesting articles about it. Certainly as a voluntary programme it should be offered.
Did some reading there myself, very interesting stuff. Looks, to me anyway, like it should offered voluntarily as you mentioned. It may not be 100%, but it's a lot higher than just prison alone, or even prison and psychological help. Then there's also cost reductions etc. If there is a wide enough uptake, and the participants studied, it may be possible to improve the drugs and outcomes, for the criminals and society in general.
Good posting Fionntamhnach. Interesting stuff. I'm sure you're right that some sex offenders would like to stop but can't stop themselves. I have sympathy for them and imagine they would be (reluctantly) willing to be castrated.
I don't agree that castration should be voluntary though, not for those who commit serious sexual offences or are repeat offenders. I know human rights laws would probably prevent castration being intoduced on anything other than a voluntary basis but most of us would ask, why not? It seems a reasonable punishment for serious sex crimes and should allow some offenders at least to be safely released into society.
Involuntary chemical castration would be very difficult and expensive to enforce so physical castration would be the best solution.
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 05, 2012, 05:40:38 PM
Quote from: nrico2006 on October 05, 2012, 02:24:36 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on October 05, 2012, 02:11:17 PM
No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.
But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.
Not sure about the high quality menu. A friend of mine did 6 months in Castlerea and he said the food was sh!te.
I agree with Leo Mc. Castration should be used as part of the punishment for serious sex offences. It's logical and a real punishment / deterrent. We're too soft on these people - excuse the lame pun.
casteration doesnt take away the fantasy element of the 'event', so wont ease the actual numbers or cause or deterrent. . if really sick f**kers have this urge, they will do it with no balls and will destroy kids/girls with any implement that wil turn them on with no feelings for the person they are hurting.
That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.
I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.
Great post by fionntamhnach. The killing of prisoners by other inmates is abhorrent. They are supposed to be protected. As a society we don't know what to do about paedophilia. Middle class paedophiles often get away with it. We also have very inconsistent attitudes to kids, especially when they are poor. . We don't care about childhood trauma in our underclass- the kids of the poorest families in south hill in Limerick will be brutalised throughout their youth and graduate as drug gang members and die young . But that problem is too complex. Tabloid culture prefers to focus on perverts.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 01:17:51 AM
Quote from: Mentalman on October 06, 2012, 12:24:03 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 06, 2012, 12:11:37 AM
If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.
It appears paedophilia is not treatable or curable, there's increasing evidence that would the equivalent of trying to cure someone of heterosexuality for instance. I don't know what the medical evidence is for chemical castration as a way of removing these drives, as I imagine that research would be highly controversial, but surely, given everything written above, it would be worth persuing, and I imagine there would volunteers for altruistic (genuinely wanting to be cured) and non-altruistic (wanting to be released early) reasons.
Those convicted of paedophilia are difficult to reform to prevent reoffending. Not impossible but quite low which it's why it's seen that such prisoners are a lost cause as traditional prison rehabilitation techniques have little effect. Essentially they have a form of psychological addiction that is deemed threatening to others, some through genetics, others by environmental factors in a similar fashion to spouse abuse where the offender wants to break clean but just can't.
In terms of chemical castration, my reading of it is that there is still some way for it to go before it could be considered for widespread use especially as some side effects to treatment have been noticed, and while those that follow the course have a very high rate of not reoffending, it is not quite 100%. A quick google throws up some interesting articles about it. Certainly as a voluntary programme it should be offered.
Turkey and Christmas springs to mind.
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2012, 08:25:29 AM
Great post by fionntamhnach. The killing of prisoners by other inmates is abhorrent. They are supposed to be protected. As a society we don't know what to do about paedophilia. Middle class paedophiles often get away with it. We also have very inconsistent attitudes to kids, especially when they are poor. . We don't care about childhood trauma in our underclass- the kids of the poorest families in south hill in Limerick will be brutalised throughout their youth and graduate as drug gang members and die young . But that problem is too complex. Tabloid culture prefers to focus on perverts.
I'm not sure who this "we" is that you are speaking on behalf of Seafoid. I would hazard a guess that if you carried out an opinion poll on what to do with scumbags that rape and/or kill children that you would have a very clear answer, somewhere between life (as in your whole life) in jail or execution.
Again, your speaking on behalf of what people think of the children of the poor, i'm fairly sure people would be sorry for those kids and would want intervention for them but our government prefers to pay billions to banks than to other the vulnerable. And by the way, the vunerable are not just he poor. There are plenty of people in the middle classes who are effectively poor now, getting treated like dirt in hospitals, contemplating suicide as they can't make ends meet,
Your last sentence is just bullshit.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 12:12:20 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 06, 2012, 08:25:29 AM
Great post by fionntamhnach. The killing of prisoners by other inmates is abhorrent. They are supposed to be protected. As a society we don't know what to do about paedophilia. Middle class paedophiles often get away with it. We also have very inconsistent attitudes to kids, especially when they are poor. . We don't care about childhood trauma in our underclass- the kids of the poorest families in south hill in Limerick will be brutalised throughout their youth and graduate as drug gang members and die young . But that problem is too complex. Tabloid culture prefers to focus on perverts.
I'm not sure who this "we" is that you are speaking on behalf of Seafoid. I would hazard a guess that if you carried out an opinion poll on what to do with scumbags that rape and/or kill children that you would have a very clear answer, somewhere between life (as in your whole life) in jail or execution.
Again, your speaking on behalf of what people think of the children of the poor, i'm fairly sure people would be sorry for those kids and would want intervention for them but our government prefers to pay billions to banks than to other the vulnerable. And by the way, the vunerable are not just he poor. There are plenty of people in the middle classes who are effectively poor now, getting treated like dirt in hospitals, contemplating suicide as they can't make ends meet,
Your last sentence is just bullshit.
We don't tend to have opinion polls on what to do with criminals, Myles. If we did we'd probably still have public executions. We have a justice system instead. It isn't particularly efficient.
You are right about the middle classes.
There are many different kinds of sc**bag, really. Some of them get more heat than others.
I don't think it is right for anyone to be killed in prison.
Look some decent posts and while most have a view that prevention is the best solution, it is as someone said already (or close to) trying to change someone who's gay into being straight, it's impossible, and while there is hardship in the working class or unemployed classes it doesn't make people perverts, it's just as prevalent in upper classes as lower, being a pervert doesn't come with being poor
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil bastard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Quote from: Square Ball on October 06, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here :(
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 06, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on October 06, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here :(
I would happily do time for murder if that was my child by the way and he was found guilty.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 06, 2012, 01:19:33 PM
Look some decent posts and while most have a view that prevention is the best solution, it is as someone said already (or close to) trying to change someone who's gay into being straight, it's impossible, and while there is hardship in the working class or unemployed classes it doesn't make people perverts, it's just as prevalent in upper classes as lower, being a pervert doesn't come with being poor
We may not agree on the punishments to be meted out, but I'd agree 100% with everything you've said there.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 06, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on October 06, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here :(
Fcuk the PC crowd. Bunch of libs that are to blame for a lot of society's problems. A public execution would act as a deterant and also get rid of the fcuker.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 05:44:38 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 12:12:20 PMI'm not sure who this "we" is that you are speaking on behalf of Seafoid. I would hazard a guess that if you carried out an opinion poll on what to do with scumbags that rape and/or kill children that you would have a very clear answer, somewhere between life (as in your whole life) in jail or execution.
Nobody here can speak for anyone affected in this case or many others. There's also a good reason as why a civilised society has a proper judiciary in place and not a lynch mob that randomly acts out their own. Mark Bridger is now charged and it's time for the courts in Wales to take its course.
Seafoid said society didn't know how to deal with paedophilia, my reply I'd that people do know what should be done with them . What your post has to do with that I don't know.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 05:55:31 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on October 06, 2012, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 06, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on October 06, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here :(
Fcuk the PC crowd. Bunch of libs that are to blame for a lot of society's problems. A public execution would act as a deterant and also get rid of the fcuker.
(http://i.qkme.me/3oijn5.jpg)
Sad reflection of yourself that you think this is a matter to post silly little pictures as a reply. I would guess that a lot of people would agree that this **** should be hung.
Quote from: EC Unique on October 06, 2012, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 05:55:31 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on October 06, 2012, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 06, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on October 06, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here :(
Fcuk the PC crowd. Bunch of libs that are to blame for a lot of society's problems. A public execution would act as a deterant and also get rid of the fcuker.
(http://i.qkme.me/3oijn5.jpg)
Sad reflection of yourself that you think this is a matter to post silly little pictures as a reply. I would guess that a lot of people would agree that this **** should be hung.
I don't agree with you on much but as the father of 3 children I would provide the rope.
Quote from: EC Unique on October 06, 2012, 06:35:36 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 05:55:31 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on October 06, 2012, 04:53:44 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 06, 2012, 04:03:12 PM
Quote from: Square Ball on October 06, 2012, 03:56:01 PM
So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.
if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons
Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here :(
Fcuk the PC crowd. Bunch of libs that are to blame for a lot of society's problems. A public execution would act as a deterant and also get rid of the fcuker.
(http://i.qkme.me/3oijn5.jpg)
Sad reflection of yourself that you think this is a matter to post silly little pictures as a reply. I would guess that a lot of people would agree that this **** should be hung.
Oh no, the people are undecided on how to treat a child rapist. They just don't know. I mean obviously a large proportion of society at this moment is wondering whether the rapist/murderer was brought up in a tough home, whether his mother cuddled him at night or whether his dad took the belt to him. It must be at the forefront of everyones mind about the poor rapist. How do we rehabilitate this poor man, a course perhaps to better himself?
No doubt some clowns are reading this and nodding in agreement! You are bang on EC. A child rapist is not human in my book. They deserved to be treated like vermin.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 07:15:38 PM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 06, 2012, 06:48:55 PMI don't agree with you on much but as the father of 3 children I would provide the rope.
What gives you any more reason to provide it than say April's mother?
A father of 3 kids who would swap life with them for a 20 year jail term would need to have a good look at himself. How would mrs b like it?
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 07:30:28 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 06:53:17 PMOh no, the people are undecided on how to treat a child rapist. They just don't know. I mean obviously a large proportion of society at this moment is wondering whether the rapist/murderer was brought up in a tough home, whether his mother cuddled him at night or whether his dad took the belt to him. It must be at the forefront of everyones mind about the poor rapist. How do we rehabilitate this poor man, a course perhaps to better himself?
No doubt some clowns are reading this and nodding in agreement! You are bang on EC. A child rapist is not human in my book. They deserved to be treated like vermin.
You know, it's a bit funny seeing you come out with such arguments when you threw fits about this place in the past about anybody who came out with anything negative about the Irish Traveller community, including the mocking made by them of those that defend travellers. People in glass houses and all that crap.
Regarding this case, what's at the forefront of my mind right now is that I hope April's body is found so her family can give her a burial if she is dead. It's bad enough to have a young daughter or sister murdered - it's even worse when you don't have her body. Bridger's now been charged, his verdict won't take place until next year at the earliest - let the judicial system take its course.
You talk some crap at the back of it all. How is my position on these two unrelated issues inconsistent. I'm looking forward to this explanation...
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 05, 2012, 11:25:21 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 05, 2012, 10:40:06 PM
In all the calls for harsher sentances there still has to be a step change between the sentances for sexual offences and those for murder otherwise there is an element of "May as well be hug for a sheep as a lamb"
By treating the differing offences with the same severity there is a risk that the offender (a more appropriate term would be un-printable) will realise that murder will not increase the punishment but will reduce the risk of getting caught.
Yep, I mentioned that earlier - if the offender gets the same sentence for killing a child as they do for raping them, they will deem that they have nothing to lose whatsoever in murdering the child afterwards - not to mention that murdering and disposing of the body in a manner that is difficult to find (along with removing any incriminating evidence e.g. DNA, fingerprints) is more difficult for police to get clues on the suspect compared to the victim who survives the ordeal.
Quote from: LeoMc on October 05, 2012, 10:40:06 PMMurder should mean a life sentance (no parole) whilst Sexual offence mean should mean castration.
Do you mean physical castration or chemical castration? There would be no way that any western country would these days allow physical castration as a judicial punishment. Another problem is what if the sex offender is a woman? (Yes, they do exist).
Not sure, I don't know which would be more effective. It was not suggested to satisfy the mob mentality /blood lust. The purpose would be to remove the drive to commit further crimes. If the perpetrator cannot be rehabilitated then the drive to do it again must be removed.
Great post, Fionntamhnach.
My basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers. I do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner. It doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum. They are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence. Am I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me. My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Will your system ensure zero wrongful convictions?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers. I do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner. It doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum. They are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence. Am I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me. My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
+1. Plenty of offenders should be offered the chance for rehabilitation. Child killers and paedophiles don't fall into that category imo. The taxpayer shouldn't be left footing the bill.
fyi I think he quoted that 3 in 4 DO re-offend. Do you want to take the risk that the offender released into your area is in the 25% or the 75%?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers. I do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner. It doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum. They are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence. Am I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me. My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
What about Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Would you be OK with executing 12 year olds?
Quote from: deiseach on October 06, 2012, 11:11:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Will your system ensure zero wrongful convictions?
A risk worth taking IMO. With the technology available today in terms of DNA etc 100% certainty can be achieved and in such cases corporal punnishment should be an option.
Some people on here have themselves on a moral pedestal and are not in touch with the real world (a description that often suits teachers) . It is only in very recent years that corporal punnishment has not been an option. It was in place for thousands of years and IMO it will return.
Quote from: LeoMc on October 06, 2012, 11:27:54 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers. I do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner. It doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum. They are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence. Am I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me. My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
What about Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Would you be OK with executing 12 year olds?
Considering that Venables was out and about with a new ID and was caught with chid porn maybe it would have been a good idea.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 12:19:09 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMMy basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers.
You missed the point of my comparison then - which is the language involved in describing both groups by a large section of people often descends into populist vulgarity and crosses over into a bigger group of "undesirables". Wherever it is deserved for either or on an individual basis is down to personal opinion.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMI do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner.
So when would you want the execution to be carried out? Straight after sentencing with no right of appeal? Because the only alternatives is to either be placed in high security wings or on death row. And the latter doesn't necessarily lead to cost effectiveness itself - recent reports commissioned in the United States have shown that a prisoner on death row costs more in state & federal funds than a prisoner sentenced to life in prison without parole. With many state budgets operating on tight limits, either abolishing the death penalty or commuting death sentences to life without parole is being strongly looked into.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty) (A campaign site, so not necessarily impartial)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html?_r=0)
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMIt doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum.
I said "bulge in (my) boxers", not trousers. And while I'm not going to make a personal check but "exterminating" is a fairly excitable, passionate, dramatic word to me.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMThey are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence.
Leaving aside the cost effectiveness of the death penalty mentioned above, you are going to have to show that family members of murder victims are not by and large getting adequate support like counselling. If you can't then again you're just coming out with another bullshit tabloid meme.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMAm I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me.
Recidivism is where a released prisoner reoffends with a similar crime. Jeez, if you weren't sure what the word meant a quick google would have gave you the answer. Therefore 25% of sex offenders (all ages) do not commit recidivism within three years (after six months from release the chances of reoffending start to diminish), 75% do. Not a great number granted - but in comparison recidivism in other crime categories in the USA (I originally said UK in my last post - a mistake) other categories where rates are above 70% from a study in the 90's include possession, use and selling of illegal weapons, robbers, burglars, and car thieves. Strangely enough rape and murder had the lowest rates, down to less than 2.5% and 1.2% respectively -
the average rate was over 60%. This is in comparison to a UK average of 50% after three years. A study by UCD in 2008 shown that 50% of prisoners released do not commit recidivism after four years in Ireland. In Norway, home of the infamous Batsoy prison island, recidivism is only 20%, the lowest in Europe.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMMy system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Well Deiseach has already taken you up on one point in your claim. What I would ask is that given the data above regarding death row in the United States, how can you show that what you propose would be a "minimal cost to the taxpayer"?
How many children do you have? Guessing none as you compare child rape with burglars and car thieves. I'd rather a recidivist stole my car than killed and/or molested one of my children. But that's just my right-wing opinion.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 07, 2012, 12:34:04 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 12:19:09 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMMy basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers.
You missed the point of my comparison then - which is the language involved in describing both groups by a large section of people often descends into populist vulgarity and crosses over into a bigger group of "undesirables". Wherever it is deserved for either or on an individual basis is down to personal opinion.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMI do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner.
So when would you want the execution to be carried out? Straight after sentencing with no right of appeal? Because the only alternatives is to either be placed in high security wings or on death row. And the latter doesn't necessarily lead to cost effectiveness itself - recent reports commissioned in the United States have shown that a prisoner on death row costs more in state & federal funds than a prisoner sentenced to life in prison without parole. With many state budgets operating on tight limits, either abolishing the death penalty or commuting death sentences to life without parole is being strongly looked into.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty) (A campaign site, so not necessarily impartial)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html?_r=0)
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMIt doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum.
I said "bulge in (my) boxers", not trousers. And while I'm not going to make a personal check but "exterminating" is a fairly excitable, passionate, dramatic word to me.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMThey are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence.
Leaving aside the cost effectiveness of the death penalty mentioned above, you are going to have to show that family members of murder victims are not by and large getting adequate support like counselling. If you can't then again you're just coming out with another bullshit tabloid meme.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMAm I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me.
Recidivism is where a released prisoner reoffends with a similar crime. Jeez, if you weren't sure what the word meant a quick google would have gave you the answer. Therefore 25% of sex offenders (all ages) do not commit recidivism within three years (after six months from release the chances of reoffending start to diminish), 75% do. Not a great number granted - but in comparison recidivism in other crime categories in the USA (I originally said UK in my last post - a mistake) other categories where rates are above 70% from a study in the 90's include possession, use and selling of illegal weapons, robbers, burglars, and car thieves. Strangely enough rape and murder had the lowest rates, down to less than 2.5% and 1.2% respectively -
the average rate was over 60%. This is in comparison to a UK average of 50% after three years. A study by UCD in 2008 shown that 50% of prisoners released do not commit recidivism after four years in Ireland. In Norway, home of the infamous Batsoy prison island, recidivism is only 20%, the lowest in Europe.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMMy system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Well Deiseach has already taken you up on one point in your claim. What I would ask is that given the data above regarding death row in the United States, how can you show that what you propose would be a "minimal cost to the taxpayer"?
How many children do you have? Guessing none as you compare child rape with burglars and car thieves. I'd rather a recidivist stole my car than killed and/or molested one of my children. But that's just my right-wing opinion.
So you think that the death sentence is the way forward even with the threat of wrongful conviction? That the execution of some hundred prisoners is paramount to the possible loss of a few innocent lives.
Fionntamhnach can research the difference between wrongful convictions and recidivism. If the number of people reoffending exceeds those wrongfully convicted then yes I would take my chances.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 09:49:55 PM
From what I've read, chemical castration works significantly better. Physical or Surgical castration while removes the testicles still doesn't stop all testosterone production as some is produced by the Adrenal glands. OTOH Chemical castration works to suppress all testosterone levels in the body.
Fionntamhnach - a Graduate of the University of Life: Bachelor Of Science With First Class Honours In Televisual Digital Technology with Diploma in Castration Techniques
Quote from: Nally Stand on October 07, 2012, 12:55:19 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 06, 2012, 09:49:55 PM
From what I've read, chemical castration works significantly better. Physical or Surgical castration while removes the testicles still doesn't stop all testosterone production as some is produced by the Adrenal glands. OTOH Chemical castration works to suppress all testosterone levels in the body.
Fionntamhnach - a Graduate of the University of Life: Bachelor Of Science With First Class Honours In Televisual Digital Technology with Diploma in Castration Techniques
;D I didn't want to comment earlier on his reading materials. I'm glad someone else did!
Quote from: EC Unique on October 07, 2012, 12:10:22 AM
Quote from: deiseach on October 06, 2012, 11:11:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Will your system ensure zero wrongful convictions?
A risk worth taking IMO. With the technology available today in terms of DNA etc 100% certainty can be achieved and in such cases corporal punnishment should be an option.
Some people on here have themselves on a moral pedestal and are not in touch with the real world (a description that often suits teachers) . It is only in very recent years that corporal punnishment has not been an option. It was in place for thousands of years and IMO it will return.
I'm just back from the pub and have a few in me, but God even when sozzled I can see the nonsense in this. So what about the guy convicted ( wrongly) of killing Jill Dando? A fair price to pay??
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 07, 2012, 12:43:58 AM
Fionntamhnach can research the difference between wrongful convictions and recidivism. If the number of people reoffending exceeds those wrongfully convicted then yes I would take my chances.
No way, as mentioned such cases as Birmingham and Guilford counter this completely, if there is one thing Irish people should understand it's this. If the option had being available, as stated by the trial judge and on the original appeal, those people would have been executed. And remember the forensics were viewed as being 100%, above reproach at the time.
To me the only sensible approach is long sentences coupled with the option of voluntary chemical castration. Those who say the latter option won't work, or is too expensive , remind me of those who are against means testing of various allowances - (a) where's your evidence to the contrary (b) where's your costings, i.e. how much per annum does it cost to house a prisoner as opposed to a system of 3 injections a year, which if they don't take they end back behind bars anyway. It appears the understandable disgust at these creatures blinds people's reason to the point of bloodlust, which is pointless as the death penalty will never return to either Ireland or the UK.
Quote from: deiseach on October 06, 2012, 11:11:37 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Will your system ensure zero wrongful convictions?
I would suggest it only be used when there is 100% certainty backed up by DNA evidence.
Quote from: LeoMc on October 06, 2012, 11:27:54 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers. I do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner. It doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum. They are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence. Am I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me. My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
What about Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Would you be OK with executing 12 year olds?
No - in most countries 12 year olds are not tried in adult courts for good reasons. However, consider this Veneables was caught with child porn under his new identity. If this great rehabilitation system doesn't even work on a 12 year old then what hope for the rest of the scum that are adults.
The producers of CSI would be delighted if they were reading this thread. 100% certainty from forensic evidence? Lads, don't ever play poker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Skuse#Birmingham_Six_appeal).
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 12:19:09 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMMy basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers.
You missed the point of my comparison then - which is the language involved in describing both groups by a large section of people often descends into populist vulgarity and crosses over into a bigger group of "undesirables". Wherever it is deserved for either or on an individual basis is down to personal opinion.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMI do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner.
So when would you want the execution to be carried out? Straight after sentencing with no right of appeal? Because the only alternatives is to either be placed in high security wings or on death row. And the latter doesn't necessarily lead to cost effectiveness itself - recent reports commissioned in the United States have shown that a prisoner on death row costs more in state & federal funds than a prisoner sentenced to life in prison without parole. With many state budgets operating on tight limits, either abolishing the death penalty or commuting death sentences to life without parole is being strongly looked into.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/costs-death-penalty) (A campaign site, so not necessarily impartial)
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html?_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/28/opinion/28mon3.html?_r=0)
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620 (http://articles.latimes.com/2011/jun/20/local/la-me-adv-death-penalty-costs-20110620)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMIt doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum.
I said "bulge in (my) boxers", not trousers. And while I'm not going to make a personal check but "exterminating" is a fairly excitable, passionate, dramatic word to me.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMThey are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence.
Leaving aside the cost effectiveness of the death penalty mentioned above, you are going to have to show that family members of murder victims are not by and large getting adequate support like counselling. If you can't then again you're just coming out with another bullshit tabloid meme.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMAm I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me.
Recidivism is where a released prisoner reoffends with a similar crime. Jeez, if you weren't sure what the word meant a quick google would have gave you the answer. Therefore 25% of sex offenders (all ages) do not commit recidivism within three years (after six months from release the chances of reoffending start to diminish), 75% do. Not a great number granted - but in comparison recidivism in other crime categories in the USA (I originally said UK in my last post - a mistake) other categories where rates are above 70% from a study in the 90's include possession, use and selling of illegal weapons, robbers, burglars, and car thieves. Strangely enough rape and murder had the lowest rates, down to less than 2.5% and 1.2% respectively -
the average rate was over 60%. This is in comparison to a UK average of 50% after three years. A study by UCD in 2008 shown that 50% of prisoners released do not commit recidivism after four years in Ireland. In Norway, home of the infamous Batsoy prison island, recidivism is only 20%, the lowest in Europe.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PMMy system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
Well Deiseach has already taken you up on one point in your claim. What I would ask is that given the data above regarding death row in the United States, how can you show that what you propose would be a "minimal cost to the taxpayer"?
Oh great. Now we have the EG style replies dissecting line by line every post.
I haven't missed your point on travellers, you have no point.
When should they be executed. Well I suppose a period of time for an appeal could be set aside - maybe 3 months. However right to appeal should be at the judges discretion as an appeal puts the victims family through further torment. In the case where there is absolute certainty of guilt why should these vermin be offered the right to appeal. The victims should be the primary concern in this which is the big flaw in the law at the moment which treats them as no more than witnesses.
Extermination is an excitable word is it? A simple check on google would tell you that the definition of the word does not include any reference to excitability (or dramatic/passionate either for the record). The only pleasure I would have from executing a child rapist is that he would never inflict that evil on another child again.
Tell me, since you have all the statistics, how much would it cost to house a child rapist/murderer per annum in the high security wing of a prison segregated from other prisoners. €100k per annum being generous I reckon. So lets say he that the child rapist gets 20 years that's €2m to house and "rehabilitate". Do you think the state will spend €2m on the victims? Do you not think that €2m could not be better spent elsewhere in society?
You are correct, I did not know what Recidivism was, not a word I've ever heard before. Normal Joes would you re-offend. So I assumed you meant the opposite of what you did as I couldn't believe anyone would be stupid enough to argue for rehabilitation of sex offenders and then quote a 75% re-offend statistic to back that up. Npw you have quoted a whole other range of statistics for "recidivism". To cut a long question short, do you have statistics for "child rapists" alone as you seem to quoting general figures for crime in other countries.
All your harking back to the statistics in the USA. The USA is a basket case that executes prisoners at election time while cowardly dropping bombs on women and children in other parts of the world. What makes you think I would want to propose a system anything like that. Same goes for those twats in the EU that have no problem selling weapons to countries to help them murder each other and then stand idly by when they do. Apparently you cant execute vile criminals in your jails if you want to join this great club.
Quote from: deiseach on October 07, 2012, 09:22:07 AM
The producers of CSI would be delighted if they were reading this thread. 100% certainty from forensic evidence? Lads, don't ever play poker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Skuse#Birmingham_Six_appeal).
For the record I said DNA not forensic evidence.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 02:07:44 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 07, 2012, 12:34:04 AMHow many children do you have?
That's none of your business and irrelevant anyway. Would a student doing PhD in criminology researching recidivism which involves sexual crimes who does not have any children of their own mean that their work would be useless in your eyes?
Anyway, Mark Bridger himself is a father of six - looks like being a father doesn't stop you from being charged for the murder and abduction of a five year old child alongside attempting to pervert the course of justice.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 07, 2012, 12:34:04 AMGuessing none as you compare child rape with burglars and car thieves. I'd rather a recidivist stole my car than killed and/or molested one of my children. But that's just my right-wing opinion.
No. It's your way of spinning what I had wrote. There was no implication of a comparison of the impact of any category of crime mentioned on victims - I would much rather that I was burgled than any child within a 20 miles radius of where I live of being raped and murdered myself. The categories of recidivism rates were brought up to show how different rates of rehabilitation and reform work with different types of criminals - and the main category being cited in my case was sexual assault of adults & children for which children only make up a proportion of the category. I also put the statistics for rape (I actually have no idea if this category includes children) and murder which were lower than I expected, making a point that convicts released in these categories generally reform themselves with little risk of reoffending in the same category of crime. Without more details and breakdowns of specific convictions and arrests after release from these figures these are as accurate as I can currently get. What it does show is that those convicted of sexual assault have a higher rate of reoffending soon after release in the USA than on average - but not hugely so. Not surprising to an extent considering that the prison system in America is one which is heavily overcrowded and has a revolving door reputation.
Prisons in the US have 3 times more prisoners than 30 years ago. Many are run by private companies. Training and reeducation are often minimal. Return on equity is often the key performance indicator. High recidivism rates are good for business.
I wouldn't use the US as a good benchmark . It has the closest thing to a frontier mentality of justice- lock them up and throw away the keys - and it is a breeding ground for abuse.
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2012/oct/11/prison-rape-obamas-program-stop-it/
The people we imprison are overwhelmingly our most disadvantaged: the poor and the poorly educated, the black and the brown, the mentally ill. Typically, they're given extraordinarily long sentences compared to prisoners in the European Union, often for infractions that would not warrant incarceration elsewhere. And while they're imprisoned, appalling numbers of them are subjected to sexual abuse. A new BJS study released in May found that approximately one in ten former state prisoners were sexually abused while serving their most recent sentences. Overall (but accounting only for prisons, jails, and juvenile detention facilities), the Justice Department estimates that more than 209,400 people are sexually abused in US detention every year.
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
The rights of the perpetrators of crime have the same rights as your children.
I think these child predators should be sent to a local version of this gaff. That way they could talk about their feelings in comfort. Then they could be released back into the community...
http://www.damncoolpictures.com/2009/03/5-star-prison-in-austria.html?m=1 (http://www.damncoolpictures.com/2009/03/5-star-prison-in-austria.html?m=1)
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:39:01 AM
Quote from: deiseach on October 07, 2012, 09:22:07 AM
The producers of CSI would be delighted if they were reading this thread. 100% certainty from forensic evidence? Lads, don't ever play poker (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Skuse#Birmingham_Six_appeal).
For the record I said DNA not forensic evidence.
DNA evidence is forensic evidence. Where do you get the idea that DNA evidence is always 100% reliable?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
myles
I have kids. When they are older I will talk to them about lynching and mob violence.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 07, 2012, 09:55:08 AM
The rights of the perpetrators of crime have the same rights as your children.
Of course they do. That's what happens when you have equality under the law.
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
myles
I have kids. When they are older I will talk to them about lynching and mob violence.
That's nice. You should also explain why they can't walk the roads alone or cycle to school anymore like we all did as kids. Anyway, question wasn't directed to you.
Quote from: deiseach on October 07, 2012, 10:12:12 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 07, 2012, 09:55:08 AM
The rights of the perpetrators of crime have the same rights as your children.
Of course they do. That's what happens when you have equality under the law.
And this is right?
Quote from: EC Unique on October 07, 2012, 10:30:24 AM
Quote from: deiseach on October 07, 2012, 10:12:12 AM
Of course they do. That's what happens when you have equality under the law.
And this is right?
Of course. We are all entitled to the same rights under the law. Anything else is apartheid. That doesn't mean a convicted paedophile gets the same punishment as their victim.
Quote from: EC Unique on October 07, 2012, 12:14:16 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 06, 2012, 11:27:54 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 06, 2012, 11:00:58 PM
My basis for defending travellers was that just because some commit crime doesnt mean they all do. Yes sections of the community that have high crime rates should have intervention of some sort and should even be cost effective to do so. However, the criminal is 100% responsible for their crime and whining about their upbringing means nothing in my book. But in my opinion a line must be drawn when it comes to child killers. I do not want my tax being spent locking these scum up in high security wings where even the other prisoners recognise them as a different level of prisoner. It doesn't give me a bulge in my trousers as you put it to say justice would only be done by exterminating such scum. They are not worth the effort and such funding would be better spent counselling the victims family who are forgotten as they start their life sentence. Am I right in saying that by your statistics 25% of sex crime perpetrator reoffend despite the punishment and rehabilitation and of course being on a sex offenders register and cops having knowledge of their whereabouts. 1 in 4 reoffend (or are caught reoffending) isn't impressive to me. My system gives zero reoffending for minimal cost to the taxpayer for child rapists and murderers.
What about Jon Venables and Robert Thompson. Would you be OK with executing 12 year olds?
Considering that Venables was out and about with a new ID and was caught with chid porn maybe it would have been a good idea.
Fair enough Venables is not a great example.
It had always sickened me to see the people attacking the van those 2 boys were led away from court in, grown men prepared to kill the 2 children inside becasue the blood lust was up in the mob. It is why the head has to rule the heart and we have to be dispassionate about crime and punishment.
We shouldn't really be having a pop at each other on this, many have a view on this, I'd like to see the reaction of a poster who's for reforming peado's after he's visited their door. That will change their view forever.
As for this not executing them because of mistakes in the past, well if someone cuts off my balls and I was innocent he might as well have killed me.
As for the stats on re-offending, was it 75% re-offend and the others just aren't caught maybe who knows. I never wanted them killed (though the more I watch the news the more I do) I want them put away to some island 200 miles away form the nearset mainland and let them fend for themselves. What's wrong with that? Remember this, these things are continually thinking of raping killing kids, actively downloading kid porn and want to brutalize your children.
When you think about it, really think about it then I don't see why we are some many pages in on this. Who opened this thread? Put up a poll just to see
All this is crazy anyway, it doesn't matter if one person says they should be hanged or another says they should be exiled to some paedo island or another says they should be castrated, the fact is that they go to jail for life and, given the experiences of other cnuts like Ian Huntley etc, jail is not the bed of roses some of us thought it was. Bottom line is, though, we live in a civilised society and don't operate under the laws of the jungle.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
What is your point? That the laws of the land should be framed based on the emotions of parents? How would you implement this novel proposal?
Quote from: Hardy on October 07, 2012, 01:43:40 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
What is your point? That the laws of the land should be framed based on the emotions of parents? How would you implement this novel proposal?
The point is where is he coming from with the notion of trying to reform these scumbags. The laws of the land should be based on protecting its law abiding citizens not trying to reform evil people most likely beyond reform at a cost of millions to the tax payer.
Have I wandered onto the Daily Express site by accident?
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
myles
I have kids. When they are older I will talk to them about lynching and mob violence.
That's nice. You should also explain why they can't walk the roads alone or cycle to school anymore like we all did as kids. Anyway, question wasn't directed to you.
How many kids are abducted in ireland every year?
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 05:49:32 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
myles
I have kids. When they are older I will talk to them about lynching and mob violence.
That's nice. You should also explain why they can't walk the roads alone or cycle to school anymore like we all did as kids. Anyway, question wasn't directed to you.
How many kids are abducted in ireland every year?
If there is one abducted then that's plenty, how many are molested? Plenty
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 06, 2012, 05:21:13 AM
That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.
I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.
Im going on conversations ive had with a friend who is involved treating paedophiles and some of the stories she has told me is unbelivable where the man who doesnt have the sexual urges any more still has the fantasy and uses various implements to abuse their victims.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 07, 2012, 06:14:19 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 05:49:32 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
myles
I have kids. When they are older I will talk to them about lynching and mob violence.
That's nice. You should also explain why they can't walk the roads alone or cycle to school anymore like we all did as kids. Anyway, question wasn't directed to you.
How many kids are abducted in ireland every year?
If there is one abducted then that's plenty, how many are molested? Plenty
by strangers? Most abuse happens within the people known to or else the close family afaik. Why would this stop a child cycling to school?
Parents do feel like this, they don't wan't their kids going to school alone, be it over the fear of being abducted or whatever.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 10:17:21 AM
Quote from: seafoid on October 07, 2012, 10:10:23 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
myles
I have kids. When they are older I will talk to them about lynching and mob violence.
That's nice. You should also explain why they can't walk the roads alone or cycle to school anymore like we all did as kids. Anyway, question wasn't directed to you.
Wasn't a safer place you could say parents weren't as careful when we were kids.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 10:24:33 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:36:50 AMOh great. Now we have the EG style replies dissecting line by line every post.
If you're going to simply moan about me making measured replies to your posts, then there's no point in discussing the issues raised in this thread with you any further as it would be a waste of time.
What a laugh considering you spent a large proportion of one of your posts telling me that my attempts at satire were not to your liking, even referencing some guy I never heard of as evidence of this - all of which is unrelated to the topic at hand. But I suppose if you can't stand the heat...
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 08, 2012, 12:11:45 AM
Quote from: ludermor on October 07, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 06, 2012, 05:21:13 AM
That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.
I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.
Im going on conversations ive had with a friend who is involved treating paedophiles and some of the stories she has told me is unbelivable where the man who doesnt have the sexual urges any more still has the fantasy and uses various implements to abuse their victims.
It's an interesting observation - though I wonder on two issues, first is this for her a typical case or one occasional example? Secondly, such a story would be related to the reason of rape cases being committed where quite often its found that in cases where guilt is established the perpetrators motives were not about sexual gratification but showing power against their victims. Removing any sexual urges may not necessarily remove the train of thought of their fantasies. As I mentioned earlier surgical castration doesn't itself stop testosterone production in men and chemical castration only suppresses testosterone, not eliminate it's production. And it's easy to see in some boys in say Primary School, where their testosterone levels are only a fraction before the onset of puberty, are still very capable of thinking of and carrying out "bad" acts e.g. fighting with another pupil, especially if they have impressionable personalities. If you don't mind me asking is your female friend a psychologist by any chance?
She is indeed and works mainly with youth paedophoiles ( ie mainly men under 18 who have abused kids) but has experience in the whole field.
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 08, 2012, 12:11:45 AM
Quote from: ludermor on October 07, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 06, 2012, 05:21:13 AM
That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.
I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.
Im going on conversations ive had with a friend who is involved treating paedophiles and some of the stories she has told me is unbelivable where the man who doesnt have the sexual urges any more still has the fantasy and uses various implements to abuse their victims.
It's an interesting observation - though I wonder on two issues, first is this for her a typical case or one occasional example? Secondly, such a story would be related to the reason of rape cases being committed where quite often its found that in cases where guilt is established the perpetrators motives were not about sexual gratification but showing power against their victims. Removing any sexual urges may not necessarily remove the train of thought of their fantasies. As I mentioned earlier surgical castration doesn't itself stop testosterone production in men and chemical castration only suppresses testosterone, not eliminate it's production. And it's easy to see in some boys in say Primary School, where their testosterone levels are only a fraction before the onset of puberty, are still very capable of thinking of and carrying out "bad" acts e.g. fighting with another pupil, especially if they have impressionable personalities. If you don't mind me asking is your female friend a psychologist by any chance?
What about a lobotomy?
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
Quote from: LeoMc on October 08, 2012, 09:57:30 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 08, 2012, 12:11:45 AM
Quote from: ludermor on October 07, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 06, 2012, 05:21:13 AM
That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.
I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.
Im going on conversations ive had with a friend who is involved treating paedophiles and some of the stories she has told me is unbelivable where the man who doesnt have the sexual urges any more still has the fantasy and uses various implements to abuse their victims.
It's an interesting observation - though I wonder on two issues, first is this for her a typical case or one occasional example? Secondly, such a story would be related to the reason of rape cases being committed where quite often its found that in cases where guilt is established the perpetrators motives were not about sexual gratification but showing power against their victims. Removing any sexual urges may not necessarily remove the train of thought of their fantasies. As I mentioned earlier surgical castration doesn't itself stop testosterone production in men and chemical castration only suppresses testosterone, not eliminate it's production. And it's easy to see in some boys in say Primary School, where their testosterone levels are only a fraction before the onset of puberty, are still very capable of thinking of and carrying out "bad" acts e.g. fighting with another pupil, especially if they have impressionable personalities. If you don't mind me asking is your female friend a psychologist by any chance?
What about a lobotomy?
What about just cutting the f**kers heads off? I think that would stop them producing testosterone.
Quote from: Keepthefaith93 on October 08, 2012, 10:55:54 AM
Quote from: LeoMc on October 08, 2012, 09:57:30 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 08, 2012, 12:11:45 AM
Quote from: ludermor on October 07, 2012, 07:33:25 PM
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 06, 2012, 05:21:13 AM
That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.
I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.
Im going on conversations ive had with a friend who is involved treating paedophiles and some of the stories she has told me is unbelivable where the man who doesnt have the sexual urges any more still has the fantasy and uses various implements to abuse their victims.
It's an interesting observation - though I wonder on two issues, first is this for her a typical case or one occasional example? Secondly, such a story would be related to the reason of rape cases being committed where quite often its found that in cases where guilt is established the perpetrators motives were not about sexual gratification but showing power against their victims. Removing any sexual urges may not necessarily remove the train of thought of their fantasies. As I mentioned earlier surgical castration doesn't itself stop testosterone production in men and chemical castration only suppresses testosterone, not eliminate it's production. And it's easy to see in some boys in say Primary School, where their testosterone levels are only a fraction before the onset of puberty, are still very capable of thinking of and carrying out "bad" acts e.g. fighting with another pupil, especially if they have impressionable personalities. If you don't mind me asking is your female friend a psychologist by any chance?
What about a lobotomy?
What about just cutting the f**kers heads off? I think that would stop them producing testosterone.
Indeed it would.
I find it all very interesting. You can't execute someone in case you make a mistake and get the wrong man. But surely you "potentially" can get the wrong man and send him to life in jail and/or castrate him. I'm not sure would an innocent man thank you for sparing him his life while you put him in a sex offenders wing of prison and maybe castrate him.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 11:35:23 AM
I find it all very interesting. You can't execute someone in case you make a mistake and get the wrong man. But surely you "potentially" can get the wrong man and send him to life in jail and/or castrate him. I'm not sure would an innocent man thank you for sparing him his life while you put him in a sex offenders wing of prison and maybe castrate him.
I once thought it would be a kindness to execute someone rather than send them to prison forever. This seems to be one of those cases where "you don't know what it's like unless you've been there" is accurate. Death Row is invariably a grim place, yet people fight tooth and nail to stay alive. And that's no less true of the guilty. Why would the innocent rather be dead when they know in their head there's a decent chance of having the conviction overturned?
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 12:04:04 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 11:35:23 AM
I find it all very interesting. You can't execute someone in case you make a mistake and get the wrong man. But surely you "potentially" can get the wrong man and send him to life in jail and/or castrate him. I'm not sure would an innocent man thank you for sparing him his life while you put him in a sex offenders wing of prison and maybe castrate him.
I once thought it would be a kindness to execute someone rather than send them to prison forever. This seems to be one of those cases where "you don't know what it's like unless you've been there" is accurate. Death Row is invariably a grim place, yet people fight tooth and nail to stay alive. And that's no less true of the guilty. Why would the innocent rather be dead when they know in their head there's a decent chance of having the conviction overturned?
In most cases that's probably true but Ian Huntley and Ian Brady are two who are being kept alive against their will. The authorities have gone to huge lengths to keep them alive. I don't know whether that's a good thing or a bad thing but ideally the families of the victims should be the ones to decide.
It's often puzzled me why anyone would want to stay alive in prison on a life sentence(a real life sentence), especially sex offenders with all they have to deal with inside.
People get away with child abduction, rape and murder in war. It happens on a regular basis in various parts of Africa.
Do those soldiers need castrated etc etc?
Quote from: Asal Mor on October 08, 2012, 12:20:43 PM
It's often puzzled me why anyone would want to stay alive in prison on a life sentence(a real life sentence), especially sex offenders with all they have to deal with inside.
I find it strange too, but it seems most of them want to stay alive. Maybe their best bet is some paedo-loving aliens taking over the planet. There's not much chance of that happening, but 'not much chance' is still better than the odds of it happening when you're dead.
Quote from: Orior on October 08, 2012, 12:33:10 PM
People get away with child abduction, rape and murder in war. It happens on a regular basis in various parts of Africa.
Do those soldiers need castrated etc etc?
Of course they do but we can only deal with our own country, whatever one that is, there a debate on that on another thread!!
I wonder what the evidence is against this guy ? You would imagine there must be some forensics linking the child to the car.
Quote from: haveaharp on October 08, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
I wonder what the evidence is against this guy ? You would imagine there must be some forensics linking the child to the car.
The kid was in his car during the week before she was abducted
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 08, 2012, 02:00:54 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 08, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
I wonder what the evidence is against this guy ? You would imagine there must be some forensics linking the child to the car.
The kid was in his car during the week before she was abducted
I didnt know that. If no body the case could be flimsy.
Quote from: haveaharp on October 08, 2012, 02:03:24 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on October 08, 2012, 02:00:54 PM
Quote from: haveaharp on October 08, 2012, 01:57:55 PM
I wonder what the evidence is against this guy ? You would imagine there must be some forensics linking the child to the car.
The kid was in his car during the week before she was abducted
I didnt know that. If no body the case could be flimsy.
Either that or they have stronger forensic evidence i.e. stronger than just proving her presence in the vehicle
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
It would be very interesting,Deiseach. I can't see loads of kids being abducted by strangers in cavan every year. Maybe myles' kids don't like cycling. Private eye does a skit of internet discussion boards and one of the lines is 'anyone comes near my.kids and I swear I'll do time'. It is a very emotive subject but It is easy to get carried away imo.
Quote from: seafoid on October 08, 2012, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
It would be very interesting,Deiseach. I can't see loads of kids being abducted by strangers in cavan every year. Maybe myles' kids don't like cycling. Private eye does a skit of internet discussion boards and one of the lines is 'anyone comes near my.kids and I swear I'll do time'. It is a very emotive subject but It is easy to get carried away imo.
I would like to think your not making light of kids being abducted, I'd like to see the stats on kids being molested in Ireland. Be quite high
Quote from: seafoid on October 08, 2012, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
It would be very interesting,Deiseach. I can't see loads of kids being abducted by strangers in cavan every year. Maybe myles' kids don't like cycling. Private eye does a skit of internet discussion boards and one of the lines is 'anyone comes near my.kids and I swear I'll do time'. It is a very emotive subject but It is easy to get carried away imo.
Listen seafoid. I discuss
my kids, you don't is that clear. I don't live in Cavan either, I live in Sligo - understand. My eldest is 5, too young to cycle roads but thats no concern of yours.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 10:37:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 08, 2012, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
It would be very interesting,Deiseach. I can't see loads of kids being abducted by strangers in cavan every year. Maybe myles' kids don't like cycling. Private eye does a skit of internet discussion boards and one of the lines is 'anyone comes near my.kids and I swear I'll do time'. It is a very emotive subject but It is easy to get carried away imo.
Listen seafoid. I discuss my kids, you don't is that clear. I don't live in Cavan either, I live in Sligo - understand. My eldest is 5, too young to cycle roads but thats no concern of yours.
Oh dear god, grow up for fcuk sake.
Quote from: thebigfella on October 08, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 10:37:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 08, 2012, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
It would be very interesting,Deiseach. I can't see loads of kids being abducted by strangers in cavan every year. Maybe myles' kids don't like cycling. Private eye does a skit of internet discussion boards and one of the lines is 'anyone comes near my.kids and I swear I'll do time'. It is a very emotive subject but It is easy to get carried away imo.
Listen seafoid. I discuss my kids, you don't is that clear. I don't live in Cavan either, I live in Sligo - understand. My eldest is 5, too young to cycle roads but thats no concern of yours.
Oh dear god, grow up for fcuk sake.
When ignorant ass like you is disagreeing with me its a sure sign I'm right.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 11:14:12 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on October 08, 2012, 10:51:54 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 10:37:57 PM
Quote from: seafoid on October 08, 2012, 10:18:38 PM
Quote from: deiseach on October 08, 2012, 10:08:47 AM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on October 07, 2012, 11:37:18 PM
From MerrionStreet.ie
(http://www.merrionstreet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Chart-1.jpg)
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/ (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/04/minister-shatter-releases-figures-on-cases-dealt-with-by-central-authority-for-child-abduction/)
However this only covers abductions which cross international borders and includes cases which abducted children are brought into the Republic, and also carryover cases from the previous year - but generally an average of more than one case with each case having one child or more sees children abducted in Ireland and going outside the state. Interestingly the main perpetrators are one of the parents of the children involved.
It would be useful to strip those cases out for the purposes of this discussion. Tug-of-love cases are a long way removed from paedos or sex trafficking.
It would be very interesting,Deiseach. I can't see loads of kids being abducted by strangers in cavan every year. Maybe myles' kids don't like cycling. Private eye does a skit of internet discussion boards and one of the lines is 'anyone comes near my.kids and I swear I'll do time'. It is a very emotive subject but It is easy to get carried away imo.
Listen seafoid. I discuss my kids, you don't is that clear. I don't live in Cavan either, I live in Sligo - understand. My eldest is 5, too young to cycle roads but thats no concern of yours.
Oh dear god, grow up for fcuk sake.
When ignorant ass like you is disagreeing with me its a sure sign I'm right.
I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm mocking you for your childish behaviour.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 08, 2012, 10:37:57 PM
Listen seafoid. I discuss my kids, you don't is that clear. I don't live in Cavan either, I live in Sligo - understand. My eldest is 5, too young to cycle roads but thats no concern of yours.
Let me get this straight. No one else is allowed mention your kids. Ever. Have I got that right?
Quote from: hardstation on October 09, 2012, 09:40:12 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on October 07, 2012, 09:40:18 AM
Fionntamhnach - why won't you tell us if you have kids? I have two, 5 yrs old and 2 yrs old. When you have kids you look at the world differently. I suspect you have none.
Maybe he discusses his kids, you don't......
Myles, you are getting on like an awful t**t.
Class.
it is a very emotional subject. Myles has a couple of kids, and is coming from a place where only a father can grasp how incredible the bond is between father and child. He was asking if those debating this subject with him have any children of their own...its a valid question. I'd hazard a guess most don't. For me, my whole outlook in life changed the moment I left the labour ward for the first time.
But, lets all gang up on Myles...give him a good proper forum dust up.
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
it is a very emotional subject. Myles has a couple of kids, and is coming from a place where only a father can grasp how incredible the bond is between father and child. He was asking if those debating this subject with him have any children of their own...its a valid question. I'd hazard a guess most don't. For me, my whole outlook in life changed the moment I left the labour ward for the first time.
But, lets all gang up on Myles...give him a good proper forum dust up.
Yeah thats right, I don't think anyone is turning their nose up to those that don't have children that they can't make a valid point on he subject but you do have a totally different outlook when you have kids. I know when I would have heard about stories like April Jones before I had children I would have thought "bad bastard" and not given it a second thought but now the natural reaction is "what if it happened to her/him".
Quote from: Minder on October 09, 2012, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
it is a very emotional subject. Myles has a couple of kids, and is coming from a place where only a father can grasp how incredible the bond is between father and child. He was asking if those debating this subject with him have any children of their own...its a valid question. I'd hazard a guess most don't. For me, my whole outlook in life changed the moment I left the labour ward for the first time.
But, lets all gang up on Myles...give him a good proper forum dust up.
Yeah thats right, I don't think anyone is turning their nose up to those that don't have children that they can't make a valid point on he subject but you do have a totally different outlook when you have kids. I know when I would have heard about stories like April Jones before I had children I would have thought "bad b**tard" and not given it a second thought but now the natural reaction is "what if it happened to her/him".
Nail on the head by both of you. It might sound patronising to people who don't have children but to be honest , unless you do then you do not fully understand.
Quote from: EC Unique on October 09, 2012, 11:54:08 AM
Quote from: Minder on October 09, 2012, 11:48:27 AM
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 11:40:01 AM
it is a very emotional subject. Myles has a couple of kids, and is coming from a place where only a father can grasp how incredible the bond is between father and child. He was asking if those debating this subject with him have any children of their own...its a valid question. I'd hazard a guess most don't. For me, my whole outlook in life changed the moment I left the labour ward for the first time.
But, lets all gang up on Myles...give him a good proper forum dust up.
Yeah thats right, I don't think anyone is turning their nose up to those that don't have children that they can't make a valid point on he subject but you do have a totally different outlook when you have kids. I know when I would have heard about stories like April Jones before I had children I would have thought "bad b**tard" and not given it a second thought but now the natural reaction is "what if it happened to her/him".
Nail on the head by both of you. It might sound patronising to people who don't have children but to be honest , unless you do then you do not fully understand.
I think I've changed my mind after reading these few posts. Free the paedos. Castrate the parents.
Quote from: hardstation on October 09, 2012, 12:06:46 PM
I think the judgement of people who have kids is completely clouded and they therefore cannot think rationally on this subject.
You have kids so you cannot fully understand.
;D
Quote from: hardstation on October 09, 2012, 12:06:46 PM
I think the judgement of people who have kids is completely clouded and they therefore cannot think rationally on this subject.
You have kids so you cannot fully understand.
Why someone would want to snatch a child and abuse the poor innocent defenseless thing for their own deviant pleasure?
Good post Fionntamhnach.
Quote from: Mentalman on October 09, 2012, 01:49:55 PM
Good post Fionntamhnach.
is it a good post because you agree with him? A little solidarity. There are many many folk out there who have kids who shouldn't, of that there is no argument. Those who do have that special bond will think differently. How can you not? You will understand when / if you do.
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 02:13:21 PM
Quote from: Mentalman on October 09, 2012, 01:49:55 PM
Good post Fionntamhnach.
is it a good post because you agree with him? A little solidarity. There are many many folk out there who have kids who shouldn't, of that there is no argument. Those who do have that special bond will think differently. How can you not? You will understand when / if you do.
Man fathers a child, never has anything to do with the boy. Another man comes into the mother's life when the child is less than 6 months old. 13 years later boy calls that man Dad, and is the only father he ever knew. Do you think that man doesn't feel the same things other fathers here feel when they read these stories? Does he feel more than the biological father who was at the birth, but never had anything to do with him?
It's complicated is all, we shouldn't make presumptions about each other's qualifications to make judgements and how we feel just based on our own experiences.
Hence why I thought it was a good post.
Quote from: Mentalman on October 09, 2012, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 02:13:21 PM
Quote from: Mentalman on October 09, 2012, 01:49:55 PM
Good post Fionntamhnach.
is it a good post because you agree with him? A little solidarity. There are many many folk out there who have kids who shouldn't, of that there is no argument. Those who do have that special bond will think differently. How can you not? You will understand when / if you do.
Man fathers a child, never has anything to do with the boy. Another man comes into the mother's life when the child is less than 6 months old. 13 years later boy calls that man Dad, and is the only father he ever knew. Do you think that man doesn't feel the same things other fathers here feel when they read these stories? Does he feel more than the biological father who was at the birth, but never had anything to do with him?
It's complicated is all, we shouldn't make presumptions about each other's qualifications to make judgements and how we feel just based on our own experiences.
Hence why I thought it was a good post.
who says I presume the man in question doesn't? I didn't differentiate between biological fathers or non-biological fathers. I've only spoken of the bond between a loving father and child.
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 02:29:47 PM
Quote from: Mentalman on October 09, 2012, 02:24:42 PM
Quote from: J OGorman on October 09, 2012, 02:13:21 PM
Quote from: Mentalman on October 09, 2012, 01:49:55 PM
Good post Fionntamhnach.
is it a good post because you agree with him? A little solidarity. There are many many folk out there who have kids who shouldn't, of that there is no argument. Those who do have that special bond will think differently. How can you not? You will understand when / if you do.
Man fathers a child, never has anything to do with the boy. Another man comes into the mother's life when the child is less than 6 months old. 13 years later boy calls that man Dad, and is the only father he ever knew. Do you think that man doesn't feel the same things other fathers here feel when they read these stories? Does he feel more than the biological father who was at the birth, but never had anything to do with him?
It's complicated is all, we shouldn't make presumptions about each other's qualifications to make judgements and how we feel just based on our own experiences.
Hence why I thought it was a good post.
who says I presume the man in question doesn't? I didn't differentiate between biological fathers or non-biological fathers. I've only spoken of the bond between a loving father and child.
You asked me why I thought it was good, so I did. I didn't presume anything of you personally.
OK, enough of that bullshite Mentalman and MilltownRow
Quote from: Gaaboardmod3 on October 09, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
OK, enough of that bullshite Mentalman and MilltownRow
He started it ;D
must have hit a nerve
Quote from: Gaaboardmod3 on October 09, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
OK, enough of that bullshite Mentalman and MilltownRow
Apologies, as Mark Twain said, never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.
Quote from: Gaaboardmod3 on October 09, 2012, 02:49:42 PM
OK, enough of that bullshite Mentalman and MilltownRow
Language!
Quote from: HiMucker on October 09, 2012, 03:35:36 PMI think thats the problem right there. The law is flawed. Some of the comments by parents are over the top but only on the basis that it would be a radical change. To be fair I think some of their suggestions including put on a island ect would be closer to justice than what currently goes for justice in ireland and the uk. Somebody mentioned earlier (in this thread I think), that the tow fellas that raped the young boy in the shopping centre in England got seven years! of which with good behaviour will do half that. Is anyone on here parent or not seriously think thats right? its not even close. Some people will say life wouldnt even be enough, but come on 7 years for that! But sure we will all suck it up because its the laws of the land. Honeslty think that their has to be larger, wider movemnet to push through reforms regarding sentencing of sex offenders.
Good post. Just because I'm against some of the more extreme posts on here doesn't mean I think the law as it currently stands works just fine.