Just back from having a few pints in Dundalk with the wife. Went to place we used to go to some years ago and where you would have struggled to find standing room. Pub was empty. Is this the case all over the south?
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 01, 2012, 11:42:45 PM
Just back from having a few pints in Dundalk with the wife. Went to place we used to go to some years ago and where you would have struggled to find standing room. Pub was empty. Is this the case all over the south?
Was up home about a month ago and there was about 4 people in the local on a Saturday night. Everyone drinking at home.
Depends on the pub. Ridleys, Brubakers and the like only start to get busy after 11.30, before that they are empty. Phoenix is usually busy early on, though how that ignorant hoor gets a crowd is beyond me.
Saturday night isn't the main night in town anymore, Monday and Thursday are.
Dundalk in the South ?? ::)
Very partitionist talk that.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 02, 2012, 12:01:50 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 01, 2012, 11:42:45 PM
Just back from having a few pints in Dundalk with the wife. Went to place we used to go to some years ago and where you would have struggled to find standing room. Pub was empty. Is this the case all over the south?
Was up home about a month ago and there was about 4 people in the local on a Saturday night. Everyone drinking at home.
As a matter of interest, and you don't have to say if you don't want to, where is up home?
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 02, 2012, 12:08:41 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on September 02, 2012, 12:01:50 AM
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 01, 2012, 11:42:45 PM
Just back from having a few pints in Dundalk with the wife. Went to place we used to go to some years ago and where you would have struggled to find standing room. Pub was empty. Is this the case all over the south?
Was up home about a month ago and there was about 4 people in the local on a Saturday night. Everyone drinking at home.
As a matter of interest, and you don't have to say if you don't want to, where is up home?
The Green Glens of Antrim.
Pubs are dying. Its really sad to see. A lot cheaper for folk to drink in the house these days but you`ll never beat the craic
Girl at work was in Kilkenny for a weekend, in a pub late on says the ashtrays were produced! Thought that eas a bit of a myth tbh.
That's the way it all over the country. People are skint and you can buy a can of beer for a euro in the off licence or for 4 euro in a pub. A bottle of beer could cost 5 euro in the pub. That's how the government are taxing drink and I think they've completely missed the point myself.
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 01, 2012, 11:42:45 PM
Just back from having a few pints in Dundalk with the wife. Went to place we used to go to some years ago and where you would have struggled to find standing room. Pub was empty. Is this the case all over the south?
Was in Cork for a week there and went to one of the local pubs where we were staying, Friday night there were 6 of us sitting watching Daniel O'donnell on TV3 and Sunday night there were 4 of us till closing time. We were down by Kinsale and one of the main hotels is gone and several of the restuarants and small cafes, though we did have to wait for a table at 3 oclock in the afternoon for something to eat. We know the man who owns the funfair that has been coming to Kinsale for years and he closed up a week early as there was no point in staying on.
I still can't decide if the government (both ROI and UK) have set out to kill the pub culture in their countries, or if they're just burying their heads in the sand.
If it's the former, it's a tad misguided. The problem has never been pubs, but the lack of alternatives to pubs. These are wet islands and outdoor culture is minimal. The new alternative is drinking in the house; a less controlled and less environment for taking alcohol.
If it's the latter, then it's a disgrace.
Perhaps the biggest problem the pub trade faces is that even if the government reduced tax on on-trade, Diageo stopped being greedy bastards and the smoking ban was overturned, it is changing the culture of the country back to pub-goer.
yes it is sad the pubs and clubs of ireland are on their knees but it didnt prevent them ripping us off for years during the good times. reap what they sow, Yes thegovt have high taxes but the publicans didnt help with their greed
Smoking ban has fcuk all to with it. There was plenty of people in the smoking areas when times were good.
The government (in the North anyway) are getting wise to the home drinker too by implementing minimum prices. A revenue haul badged as a health drive.
Hardstation you're getting a bit confuse over supply and demand there.
Asda and co can name their price to breweries because they buy so much stock off them. It's not like Diageo phone up the Tesco controller and says 'here, why don't we make a load of booze for you to sell at skimpy margins to us?'.
I think what Diageo have done to a price of a keg in the past 10 years is disgusting. They've basically outpriced the draught market by their actions. But unfortunately this is simple economics at work too. If people aren't drinking pints, the cost of delivering that pint to a customer goes up.
Diageo and co have reacted to market change. The pubs are losing out. It's really only the government who can save them, and I don't know if they want to.
I thought Dundalk was in the North East?
Quote from: thebigfella on September 02, 2012, 12:09:40 PM
Smoking ban has fcuk all to with it. There was plenty of people in the smoking areas when times were good.
You can only arrive at this conclusion is you are anti smoking.
The price of drinking at home has always been cheaper than going to the pub. But for a smoker, the value gained from being able to stink out another building, having ashtrays emptied and being in one of the few arenas where smokers weren't pariahs, made the premium worthwhile. So a €3 pint was better value than a €1.50 tin, even though it cost twice as much.
With smokers leaving pubs, who replaced them? I remember at the time that anti-smokers declared they'd now visit pubs with greater frequency, the truth is this: if you've grown up spending €50 in a pub every week, you think nothing of it. If you've never done it, or not in a long time, you can think of umpteen better ways to spend that money. You can't coerce non pub goers into being pub regulars. That's why the smoking ban has had such an impact.
I think the smoking factor is minuscule compared to the drink-driving factor and the price factor.
The effect of pricing is self-evident and is just the outcome of basic economics. My own opinion is that the pub culture is so basic to our society that the government should take positive action to protect it. For instance, halve the duty on pub sales and double it on off-license sales. Can you imagine the French government standing idly by while the café culture disappeared or, worse, actively accelerating its demise?
Apart from anything else, there's a social cost. Drinking in the pub is primarily a social activity - for the majority, anyway. Drinking at home, especially alone, is the opposite and is not healthy.
The drink-driving effect is huge, as well. Before the major reductions in allowable blood alcohol level, the increased penalties and the improved enforcement, I'd guess that AT LEAST 50% of pub clientele, outside the major cities, came in cars. They can't do that anymore and people haven't embraced the alternatives, such as car-pooling, taxi use etc.
There's an argument that the lives saved (if any) by the reduction in allowable blood-alcohol content to effectively zero are more than balanced by those lost or ruined by the removal of the social outlet of the pub. I don't know if it's a valid argument, but it doesn't matter because it wouldn't even be allowed on today's social agenda.
Whatever about that, I'd say there's room here too for effective government action to encourage car pooling or to subsidise communal pub transport schemes. It may seem laughable that the government should be encouraging people to go to pubs and I take the point about how the publicans rode us for generations. But it makes some sense socially, culturally and economically, especially if the alternative is not reduced alcohol consumption, but the opposite and in uncontrolled conditions.
Quote from: thewobbler on September 02, 2012, 12:30:01 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 02, 2012, 12:09:40 PM
Smoking ban has fcuk all to with it. There was plenty of people in the smoking areas when times were good.
You can only arrive at this conclusion is you are anti smoking.
The price of drinking at home has always been cheaper than going to the pub. But for a smoker, the value gained from being able to stink out another building, having ashtrays emptied and being in one of the few arenas where smokers weren't pariahs, made the premium worthwhile. So a €3 pint was better value than a €1.50 tin, even though it cost twice as much.
With smokers leaving pubs, who replaced them? I remember at the time that anti-smokers declared they'd now visit pubs with greater frequency, the truth is this: if you've grown up spending €50 in a pub every week, you think nothing of it. If you've never done it, or not in a long time, you can think of umpteen better ways to spend that money. You can't coerce non pub goers into being pub regulars. That's why the smoking ban has had such an impact.
Bullsh1t, and don't get me started on that drivel on being able to stink out another building, getting ashtrays emptied for them ::)
You completely missed the point and the smoking ban come in long before all the current problems. Smokers never quit going to pubs in the droves you clearly think; most just got on with it and got used to it. As I say when time were good and plenty of money around, there was plenty of smokers in the pub.
Your conclusions, just like the one I'm anti smoking, are utter drivel and based on fcuk all.
Quote from: thebigfella on September 02, 2012, 01:19:59 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on September 02, 2012, 12:30:01 PM
Quote from: thebigfella on September 02, 2012, 12:09:40 PM
Smoking ban has fcuk all to with it. There was plenty of people in the smoking areas when times were good.
You can only arrive at this conclusion is you are anti smoking.
The price of drinking at home has always been cheaper than going to the pub. But for a smoker, the value gained from being able to stink out another building, having ashtrays emptied and being in one of the few arenas where smokers weren't pariahs, made the premium worthwhile. So a €3 pint was better value than a €1.50 tin, even though it cost twice as much.
With smokers leaving pubs, who replaced them? I remember at the time that anti-smokers declared they'd now visit pubs with greater frequency, the truth is this: if you've grown up spending €50 in a pub every week, you think nothing of it. If you've never done it, or not in a long time, you can think of umpteen better ways to spend that money. You can't coerce non pub goers into being pub regulars. That's why the smoking ban has had such an impact.
Bullsh1t, and don't get me started on that drivel on being able to stink out another building, getting ashtrays emptied for them ::)
You completely missed the point and the smoking ban come in long before all the current problems. Smokers never quit going to pubs in the droves you clearly think; most just got on with it and got used to it. As I say when time were good and plenty of money around, there was plenty of smokers in the pub.
Your conclusions, just like the one I'm anti smoking, are utter drivel and based on fcuk all.
Well as a nation we've been through poverty since day one, and through recessions every other generation - yet the pubs saw it all through. But the last 10 years, since the smoking ban, has witnessed a pub closing each and every day. You can ignore this point, you can get personally abusive towards anyone raising this point, but the point still remains. Put two pubs beside each other in a village, one charging €5 a pint, but allows smoking, one charges €4 a pint and doesn't, and you know as well as I do which one will be pulling a crowd and turning a profit.
Nothing to do with the smoking ban. Don't know 1 person who stopped going to the pub because of it. The craic is gone from the pub because the people are gone mostly due to the price.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 02, 2012, 09:53:39 PM
Nothing to do with the smoking ban. Don't know 1 person who stopped going to the pub because of it. The craic is gone from the pub because the people are gone mostly due to the price.
Myles, please tell me how pubs survived pre Celtic Tiger?
Honestly I don't think people are realising just how little money there was in the 1980s. In real terms, a pint wasn't that much cheaper then, was it?
Quote from: thewobbler on September 02, 2012, 10:05:30 PM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on September 02, 2012, 09:53:39 PM
Nothing to do with the smoking ban. Don't know 1 person who stopped going to the pub because of it. The craic is gone from the pub because the people are gone mostly due to the price.
Myles, please tell me how pubs survived pre Celtic Tiger?
Honestly I don't think people are realising just how little money there was in the 1980s. In real terms, a pint wasn't that much cheaper then, was it?
I'd say it was much cheaper but also were there off-licenses in them times? No one was in the debt like people are now either buy to be fair I'm too young to have been drinking in the 80's
I don't think the smoking ban has anything to do with it. If they done away with it I know I probably wouldn't set foot in a pub again as I've become so comfortable with the smoke free environment it is now.
The point above about knew hobbies and technolgies is very true. Another thing is that a wife is much less likely to put up with a husband who goes out drinking a few nights a week now compared to former years. Also, a young mans role in the home with their choldren is much more hands on now than previously. A marraige is much more likley to end now than before. Also, a lot of men have grown up with fathers that frequented pubs and came home full and have decided they don't want that for their own kids.
Quote from: OakleafCounty on September 03, 2012, 12:25:58 AM
I don't think the smoking ban has anything to do with it. If they done away with it I know I probably wouldn't set foot in a pub again as I've become so comfortable with the smoke free environment it is now.
The point above about knew hobbies and technolgies is very true. Another thing is that a wife is much less likely to put up with a husband who goes out drinking a few nights a week now compared to former years. Also, a young mans role in the home with their choldren is much more hands on now than previously. A marraige is much more likley to end now than before. Also, a lot of men have grown up with fathers that frequented pubs and came home full and have decided they don't want that for their own kids.
+1. Lot of salient points but I still love the sociability of the Pub. Drink culture has changed a lot for the worse with the pre loading etc. Someone mentioned earlier about taxing off sales more and reducing tax on pub sales. Think that would go some way in halting the declining role of the pub in Irish Society.
As a smoker I have no issue with the ban. I would have smoked 15/20 on a night ut but might only smoke 3/5 now and feel I have broken a habit. Remember the oul fella driving home from Dublin, Newry, Belfast with a feed of half'uns in him and eight of us packed in the car . Though I sometimes laugh at it I also cringe at the thought of what might have happened
Quote from: customsandrevenue on September 03, 2012, 01:54:22 AM
Keep your non smoking 'Italian cafes'. Bars are no good now - oh get ye outside and have a smoke.
Wrong weather for that carry on.
We have the craic with the cheaper tins but just put them into a glass and everybody ends up with the ones they always knew anyway except if ye want ye can shush everybody during the Sunday Game - just for a wee while like before the craic starts again. And we also move round our mates houses weekly and new people appear bit by bit or house by house. Keep your bans. Can't ban people.
Just back in?
I remember around the time the smoking ban came in I saw a statistic that the pub trade was already in decline.
At the time, I had the feeling that this decline would be mistakenly attributied to the smoking ban.
Drink driving and cheaper off licence are probably the biggest factors for the pub trade decline.
I also think publicans got a bit carried away with themselves around the turn of the last decade.
Remember how a lot of them slapped on cover charges for the night of the turning of the millennium. In the end, people voted with their feet and the pubs were probably less busy than normal on the night in question.
Then with the changeover to the euro, vintners saw this a good chance to round up their prices heftily.
These might have been a tipping point for the public. Nights in became a bit more common. Soon supermarkets were selling poker sets, cocktail making kits, board games and other props for drinking nights in.
The final nail was probably Eddie Hobbs' tv show 'Rip Off Republic' which forced the government the ban on below cost selling lefted.
Once supermarkets could sell booze as a loss leader the economics were skewed completely.
It's only one dataset and it's not been updated since 2009, but the ratio table for price of pint vs average wage, at the bottom of this page, is interesting: http://www.finfacts.ie/Private/bestprice/guinnessindex.htm
I know we're all tied up in silly mortgages these days, and unemployment is on the up, but the price of a night out hasn't changed much in real terms for 50 years.
I fully agree with all the sentiments above about how Ireland has changed as a nation, and that a number of indirect factors have combined to hurt pubs. The changing role/power of "the wife" has had a tremendous impact, as has drink driving enforcement.
But there has only been one direct impact upon the actual pub experience in the past decade, the smoking ban. It's not the only factor in why pubs are closing, but it is a pretty important one.