gaaboard.com

He's been top brass in the GAA for a couple of months at this stage, what are peoples' opinions of him at this stage?

Seems to be pretty progressive to me, looking hard for ways to improve football at least (I assume he's looking hard at hurling too being a hurling man himself). Creating a committee to look at the football rule book with a view to positive changes and inviting suggestions from the public is a fairly novel move and at least shows he's not detached from the masses.

Anything I've heard him speak about he seems to have a fair bit of honesty and a fair bit of passion on which is nice to see. I guess overall I've been pretty impressed with him.

Anyone else got an opinion?

paranoid schizophrenic

And does he ever smile?

(http://www.joe.ie/uploads/story/26545/26545-xlarge.jpg)

(http://img.rasset.ie/0005d52f-960.jpg)

Quote from: Dinny Breen on July 05, 2012, 11:17:13 AM
And does he ever smile?

(http://www.joe.ie/uploads/story/26545/26545-xlarge.jpg)

(http://img.rasset.ie/0005d52f-960.jpg)

Never smiles, thats just his expression.

Hard working guy who'll be a good President imo..

Liam O'Neill is not yet 100 days in office as GAA president but he made it clear yesterday that he will not tolerate any slur on his character as he angrily refuted suggestions that the second-round qualifier draw had been rigged so that Cavan would meet Kildare at Kingspan Breffni Park.

The suggestions that Cavan and Kildare had been 'divvied up' in some way to maximise interest and attendance figures over Seanie Johnston's potential involvement in the game had been made by a number of current inter-county players on Twitter.

The suggestions may have been made tongue-in-cheek, but it was made known in advance of a media event to promote a video on concussion awareness being brought out by Acquired Brain Injury Ireland that he would be addressing the issue.

He described as "absolutely outrageous" any suggestion of impropriety about the nature of the draw, televised on Monday morning in TV3.

Several inter-county footballers and hurlers were among those who tweeted on the subject but O'Neill made it clear that he wouldn't tolerate any such commentary in the future.

"I wouldn't call it banter, it was one-sided and it was outrageous to suggest that a draw would be rigged," he said. "They called into question the honesty of the entire TV3 crew, the games section in Croke Park.

"They called into question my honesty and the honesty of Liam Hayes and the two cameras and that is outrageous, absolutely outrageous.

"It's not a random chat. If you want a random chat you pick up your mobile -- those players put it on record, it was done for effect and done to suggest that in some way we would collude to be dishonest... I can't see how they can justify their actions.

"It can be clearly seen that they were the sixth ball out of each pocket. I'd love someone to demonstrate to me how that can be rigged. Liam Hayes twirled them and I looked the other way and pulled them out.

"Why on earth would a GAA president lower himself to the state where he fixed a draw? What value would it be?

"But what's really hurtful is I have never ever criticised any player in my life as an administrator. And I find it outrageous that people would tweet what apparently was tweeted about us.

"The message has to go to the players that doing it on Twitter doesn't absolve you of the responsibility for what you have said.

"I take a very dim view of it. I am not going to do anything this time but it is something I am watching carefully and will not accept people slandering me like that.

"Those top county players have been trained by the GPA how to behave and how to handle the press and they know what they are doing.

"I haven't met the players mentioned. There are three mentioned. I don't know what I have done in my life to suggest to them that I would be dishonest but it is just not good enough."

Referees have also come under fire from players on Twitter. O'Neill reserved judgment on whether the GAA should follow rugby's lead by applying a 24-hour moratorium on use of Twitter in relation to matches.

"I don't tweet; my age group don't really tweet and it's unlikely that I will tweet. But if I did, if I had said some of the things about players that were said about me, I think the media and the players would be on my back immediately.

"I don't want to go on about it. It happened and I don't want it to happen again.


"I had to get up before 6.0. I'm not a morning person I had to go to the studios before 7.30 to prepare for it. I only met Liam Hayes a few moments before we walked into the studio together.

"Liam Hayes is a very sober type of journalist, not someone you have banter with. He is a very serious man and someone for whom I have very serious respect. His only comment on me (in the past) wasn't all that favourable so to suggest that we would collude in a draw is stretching it a bit.

"But for anyone to think that Liam Hayes would do anything other than the totally honest thing is outrageous and I'd like to stand up for him in the same way I stand up for myself.

"How long would you accept slander? There is a stage if people continue to slander you that you will have to take action.

"I want to put down a marker that it's not acceptable and it just shouldn't happen and I don't want it to happen again.

"I don't tweet -- it's not I don't want to, I don't have the time.

"And if I wanted to spend my life in negativity, I would spend my life looking at message boards and these fellas who comment anonymously."


If people want to do it and express how they feel, then fine -- but I think they have to realise that there are consequences when they overstep the mark."

A good guy and a welcome change...this man knows what he is doing.

I had to laugh at Colm Parkinson softening his cough after Liam O'Neill said what he said about people tweeting it was a fix. Knows where his bread is buttered, Parkinson.

He's a bit touchy!

After every single draw that ever throws up an interesting pairing in any sport, anywhere; there'll always be a few conspiracy theorists who will claim it was fixed...relax Liam!

I was at the conference in the Armagh City Hotel which was his first appearance as President I think, or at least President elect.  I thought he was very defensive even at that stage and while it was maybe nerves I just felt he didn't inspire any confidence.  I don't doubt his sincerity but I wouldn't see him as a great leader.

It's amazing that he's not a morning person, and had to get up early.

Glad he clarified that.

He's already shown that he's going to be a great president and he'll only get better.

Quote from: Dont Matter on July 05, 2012, 12:40:54 PM
He's already shown that he's going to be a great president and he'll only get better.

Well said, Liam.  :P

Threatening to personally sue people he's tasked with looking after (players) wasn't exactly a shining moment for the GAA presidency.

' Liam Hayes twirled them and I looked the other way and pulled them out '.

That sort of stuff should be on after the watershed!

Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2012, 01:16:27 PM
Threatening to personally sue people he's tasked with looking after (players) wasn't exactly a shining moment for the GAA presidency.

Didn't see him say that, got a quote?

I was wondering when someone would post this. Talk about an over reaction. As I was reading his statement I was cringing.

"I haven't met the players mentioned. There are three mentioned. I don't know what I have done in my life to suggest to them that I would be dishonest but it is just not good enough."

Like come on Liam relax a bit.

I would have understood if he addressed his statement towards social media abuse towards referrees...

And anyway if it wasnt fixed it should have been! The draw has got everybody talking - no publicity is bad publicity and all that

Quote from: grounded on July 05, 2012, 01:42:59 PM
' Liam Hayes twirled them and I looked the other way and pulled them out '.

That sort of stuff should be on after the watershed!

50 shades of GAA

Quote from: ludermor on July 05, 2012, 02:09:29 PM

Quote from: grounded on July 05, 2012, 01:42:59 PM
' Liam Hayes twirled them and I looked the other way and pulled them out '.

That sort of stuff should be on after the watershed!

50 shades of GAA

Very good luder.

Quote from: Keane on July 05, 2012, 01:59:47 PM

Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2012, 01:16:27 PM
Threatening to personally sue people he's tasked with looking after (players) wasn't exactly a shining moment for the GAA presidency.

Didn't see him say that, got a quote?

I suppose it was inference from Syferus from the statement that he will not accept people slanndering me.  Where do you prove slander?

"I am not going to do anything this time but it's something I am watching carefully and will not accept people slandering me like that."

http://www.hoganstand.com/Cavan/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=172638

Quote from: Denn Forever on July 05, 2012, 02:19:03 PMI suppose it was inference from Syferus from the statement that he will not accept people slanndering me.  Where do you prove slander?

"I am not going to do anything this time but it's something I am watching carefully and will not accept people slandering me like that."

http://www.hoganstand.com/Cavan/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=172638

Bit of a stretch from that to "threatening to personally sue".

So he'll respond by turning up at their houses with boxing gloves and challenging them to a Queensbury rules dust-up? The implication was pretty clear since he or the GAA have no jurisdiction over what players say on twitter.

From what I've seen and heard he seems to be a decent enough skin. He's already been helpful towards the GAA in Warwickshire which for years had been shamefully ignored.

He just needs some media training, his demeanour is too sour looking in interviews, he doesn't smile enough and he's clearly prone to getting involved in pointless arguments.

Quote from: stephenite on July 05, 2012, 11:45:49 AM
It's amazing that he's not a morning person, and had to get up early.

Glad he clarified that.

He is a teacher ffs.
Are they allowed to start work at 11:30 in the morning?

He's a genuine guy, with his heart in the right place. He deserves a decent chance.

Jayz he sounds like some windbag. OK - we got the message. He didn't have to say it twenty seven different ways.

Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
He just needs some media training, his demeanour is too sour looking in interviews, he doesn't smile enough and he's clearly prone to getting involved in pointless arguments.

It's the Laois way, it's ingrained in him.

Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
He just needs some media training, his demeanour is too sour looking in interviews, he doesn't smile enough and he's clearly prone to getting involved in pointless arguments.

Those are essential requirements for any serious GAA man  :)...we have enough media trained assholes in this country. Nice to see someone be themselves.

Quote from: Syferus on July 05, 2012, 05:07:12 PM
He just needs some media training, his demeanour is too sour looking in interviews, he doesn't smile enough and he's clearly prone to getting involved in pointless arguments.

Media training, demeanour, smile - what the f**k is the GAA President supposed to be doing? We have had plenty of Presidents that were good at smiling and working (with) the media but they were not good Presidents. As has been said already I think O'Neill has started well and will exceed most peoples expectations. I think he has a point about the draws and the attitude to GAA Administrators in general. Can you imagine if an administrator said anything remotely negative about a player? You'd have Dessie and the boys up in arms/on strike/out marching.

I ended up doing a little piece on my impressions of him to date here if anyone's interested:

http://www.livegaelic.com/features/the-times-they-are-a-changin/

Tyrone manager Mickey Harte
UPDATED 22 MAY 2014 08:31 PM

I'm not so sure about these comments about Mickey Harte. Mickey called the ref inconsistent which he was. He didn't criticise the ref personally.

Liam doesn't know Mickey that well. On and off the field Mickey Harte has been extremely positive and very inspirational for many.


Liam O'Neill has criticised the "consistent" negativity of Tyrone manager Mickey Harte.


The GAA president has expressed his disappointment with Harte following his comments regarding referee David Coldrick's performance in the drawn Ulster football championship opener last weekend.

Harte voiced his concerns regarding what he referred to as inconsistencies in the application of the new black rule after last Sunday's drawn Ulster SFC preliminary round against Down.

A major talking point from the encounter was how Down forward Conor Maginn avoided a black card in the first half for pulling down Mark Donnelly for a Tyrone penalty when goalkeeper Niall Morgan was shown one for tripping Jerome Johnston.

Maginn went on to score a goal in the second half as the Mourne men launched an inspired comeback before a Sean Cavanagh free rescued a draw in injury time.

The GAA president was critical of Harte today, suggesting that the Tyrone boss is overly negative.

"In fairness to Mickey Harte, he doesn't leave much negativity out," O'Neill told Ocean FM today.

"If there's something negative to be said, Mickey will say it and he's consistent on that."

The replay between Tyrone and Down will take place this Saturday.

Fairly pathetic on the part of the President; Harte was entitled to comment on the incident and I don't think Harte was in any way over the top or personal in his comments. Unlike the President. I'd heed Mickey Harte anytime before O Neill.
Black card for Liam O Neill on this.
No surprise though; he is very defensive and his legacy will be the Sky deal.

The recent trend in presidential candidates to run campaigns on issues has really turned the office into a bit if a farce. All the candidates have to find a platform and campaign on their issues; it's seldom about their track record. The role of President has changed from figurehead to that of a politician. Someone once said GAA officials were failed politicians. They had a point.
It's a role that needs to be seriously looked at; this lark of paying his salary during his term is an extravagance we can do without.

While O'Neill is wrong here and he has been quite negative himself at times it is nonsense to say the head of the GAA should be a figure head who shuts up and waves politely at functions like the queen of england. And the idea that we don't pay the head of a multi-million pound organisation so he/she can give it full attention is daft - "sorry lads I can't make that meeting, I'm on nights all this week in work"

Quote from: Catch and Kick on May 23, 2014, 09:08:59 AM
Fairly pathetic on the part of the President; Harte was entitled to comment on the incident and I don't think Harte was in any way over the top or personal in his comments. Unlike the President. I'd heed Mickey Harte anytime before O Neill.
Black card for Liam O Neill on this.
No surprise though; he is very defensive and his legacy will be the Sky deal.

The recent trend in presidential candidates to run campaigns on issues has really turned the office into a bit if a farce. All the candidates have to find a platform and campaign on their issues; it's seldom about their track record. The role of President has changed from figurehead to that of a politician. Someone once said GAA officials were failed politicians. They had a point.
It's a role that needs to be seriously looked at; this lark of paying his salary during his term is an extravagance we can do without.

Some past presidents would have made great politicians IMO. Some not all of them.

Fight back is on. Liam might regret opening his mouth.

"I can't be responsible for how Liam sees life," declared Harte. "I just look through my own lens and that's not the way I look at it. But if that's the way he chooses to describe it, that's up to him. Perhaps a view in the mirror might sort that out.

"The consistent application of all the rules is always an issue because there are so many variables within games. That is the key thing that needs to be attended to in refereeing, regardless of what set of rules you play by. If they're played by consistently, we can live with that. And we've always said that.

The Tyrone manager added: "It's not about taking a swing at referees or anything else. But you must be able to comment on things that you see in front of your face.

"And if something is clearly adjudicated differently than it ought to be, surely we have the right to comment on that?"

Harte, who was attending an event to mark the sponsorship of Kilcullen GAA by Nolan Butchers, continued: "Whenever you talk about consistency and you talk about refereeing decisions, if you comment on them, it seems to be that you're picking holes in it.

"That is not necessarily the case at all. If you put a logical argument with what you're thinking, I don't think that should be seen as being negative.

"Surely to God, referees and the refereeing fraternity are big enough to accept when they make mistakes and accept as well that they have a lot of things to think about?

"Maybe reducing the number of things they have to think about and attend to would be a good idea rather than add to it.

"You can say all you want about it and be as negative as you want about it, but I've never brought it up in a negative atmosphere.

"I've brought it up as facts that I've seen before me and it's not just for me that I'm mentioning these things.

"I just want us to try and reach a place where there's as consistent an application of the rules as is humanly possible. And that's not looking for perfection. But we should expect an effort to move in that direction."

(http://www.nolansofkilcullen.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/fp_slider/history.png)

Quote from: Catch and Kick on May 23, 2014, 09:08:59 AM
Fairly pathetic on the part of the President; Harte was entitled to comment on the incident and I don't think Harte was in any way over the top or personal in his comments. Unlike the President. I'd heed Mickey Harte anytime before O Neill.
Black card for Liam O Neill on this.
No surprise though; he is very defensive and his legacy will be the Sky deal.

The recent trend in presidential candidates to run campaigns on issues has really turned the office into a bit if a farce. All the candidates have to find a platform and campaign on their issues; it's seldom about their track record. The role of President has changed from figurehead to that of a politician. Someone once said GAA officials were failed politicians. They had a point.
It's a role that needs to be seriously looked at; this lark of paying his salary during his term is an extravagance we can do without.

Now that you mention it, wasn't Liam's big campaign issue and major priority the sorting out of the fixtures farce for club players that is the biggest problem in the GAA?

How did that go, then?

Quote from: Hardy on May 23, 2014, 10:46:06 AM

Quote from: Catch and Kick on May 23, 2014, 09:08:59 AM
Fairly pathetic on the part of the President; Harte was entitled to comment on the incident and I don't think Harte was in any way over the top or personal in his comments. Unlike the President. I'd heed Mickey Harte anytime before O Neill.
Black card for Liam O Neill on this.
No surprise though; he is very defensive and his legacy will be the Sky deal.

The recent trend in presidential candidates to run campaigns on issues has really turned the office into a bit if a farce. All the candidates have to find a platform and campaign on their issues; it's seldom about their track record. The role of President has changed from figurehead to that of a politician. Someone once said GAA officials were failed politicians. They had a point.
It's a role that needs to be seriously looked at; this lark of paying his salary during his term is an extravagance we can do without.

Now that you mention it, wasn't Liam's big campaign issue and major priority the sorting out of the fixtures farce for club players that is the biggest problem in the GAA?

How did that go, then?

Is that not the president elect's brief ?

Mickey was totally justified in what he said about the lack of consistency on Sunday and sure didn't the Sunday game show clear evidence of this and they all said it was disappointing that on the first live game this is the talking point. Coldrick made a mess of it and I watched the game again and Maginn was lucky not to go even before the penalty incident.

He also mentioned the Dublin league game where the keeper pulled down a forward and again the rule was ignored. With all the technology in place now so allow the refs & umpires to communicate more you would imagine that if the ref does get it wrong that his colleagues would be onto him right away to point it out.
Can you imagine if that game had of been the Kerry v Dublin match last year with the new rules and the Galvin pulled down B.Brogan and the ref didn't give him a black card. There would be uproar would there not? Same rules, different teams.

Quote from: orangeman on May 23, 2014, 10:55:00 AM

Quote from: Hardy on May 23, 2014, 10:46:06 AM

Quote from: Catch and Kick on May 23, 2014, 09:08:59 AM
Fairly pathetic on the part of the President; Harte was entitled to comment on the incident and I don't think Harte was in any way over the top or personal in his comments. Unlike the President. I'd heed Mickey Harte anytime before O Neill.
Black card for Liam O Neill on this.
No surprise though; he is very defensive and his legacy will be the Sky deal.

The recent trend in presidential candidates to run campaigns on issues has really turned the office into a bit if a farce. All the candidates have to find a platform and campaign on their issues; it's seldom about their track record. The role of President has changed from figurehead to that of a politician. Someone once said GAA officials were failed politicians. They had a point.
It's a role that needs to be seriously looked at; this lark of paying his salary during his term is an extravagance we can do without.

Now that you mention it, wasn't Liam's big campaign issue and major priority the sorting out of the fixtures farce for club players that is the biggest problem in the GAA?

How did that go, then?

Is that not the president elect's brief ?

Ah, you're right. I hope I don't get a dressing down like Mickey for that. 

For the record, as far as I can find out, this was his platform:

During the campaign, O'Neill proposed making significant changes to the GAA's disciplinary procedures.
To speed up disciplinary processes, he suggested that a three-man board with substantial powers should meet every Monday to deal with issues arising from matches quickly.
He has also highlighted pitch invasions and the traditional post-match All-Ireland final speech by the winning captain as areas in need of reform.
He backed supporting the growth of hurling in weaker counties such as Antrim, Down, Westmeath, Carlow and Laois at the outset of his campaign in December.

Heady stuff.

Why was Mickey in Kildare to celebrate the sponsorship of Nolan Butchers sponsorship of Kilcullen GAA Club?????

Quote from: The Trap on May 23, 2014, 11:08:47 AM
Why was Mickey in Kildare to celebrate the sponsorship of Nolan Butchers sponsorship of Kilcullen GAA Club?????

There use to be a Tyrone poster here who was a member of the rags? Wonder is it connected?

I thought O'Neill's comments were an absolute disgrace. Why didn't he argue the issue rather than make a personal attack on Mickey Harte. It was digusting and reeked of an attmept to settle old scores. People who tell the emporer that he is in the nip, like Harte, tend to really annoy the powers that be. Good on him. 

A clear case of not playing the ball there by Liam O'Neill.  Down with this sort of thing.

O'Neill has always come across as an arrogant, ignorant sort of man and this is another example of it.   I have no great grá for Harte but he had every right to highlight the issue of consistency.  The constant tinkering of the football rules is nonsense and should stop  now.  The rules that are there now should be left with no further admendment for the next 4-5 years.  The constant calls for change are not necessary, the requirement for people to know the rules,  refs, players and management,  and implement the rules consistently is required.

Quote from: magpie seanie on May 23, 2014, 11:50:15 AM
I thought O'Neill's comments were an absolute disgrace. Why didn't he argue the issue rather than make a personal attack on Mickey Harte. It was digusting and reeked of an attmept to settle old scores. People who tell the emporer that he is in the nip, like Harte, tend to really annoy the powers that be. Good on him.

I agree with this. I'm getting a bit worried I seem to be siding with Mickey Harte a lot these days, but in this case O'Neill should have been able to either come up with a more diplomatic response, or else argue his case. A simple response along the lines of 'we believe the black card is very beneficial, and we expect to see the benefits throughout the year, however nobody is perfect and individual decisions will not be agreed by everyone, and of course managers will not be happy if they feel a decision has gone against them, but that's something that's been part of the game, and indeed most field games, since their inception' would have done the trick.

He's probably just tired of the jig-acting by managers complaining about every little decision in games. Mickey is one of the cutest hoors in the game so let's not kid ourselves and canonise him.

Some of the worst crimes go without proper coverage because managers have cried wolf too often.

The man has a point

Black card
Compromise rules
scheduling of Qualifiers
RTE
referees
ticket allocations
Railway cup

Just some of the things mickey has a gripe with and mostly justified but only when it suits his agenda,but i dont agree with our president coming on air and have a dig at harte.

guess what mickeys not happy about club games being played!!

Quote from: cockahoop on May 26, 2014, 09:32:43 AM
guess what mickeys not happy about club games being played!!

Hardly a novel position. Most county managers I know treat the club game as a necessary evil. If most of them had their way, there'd be no club activity until September.

i just thought it quite ironic after our presidents outburst on air regarding harte that the last thing he would do would be to complain about something else,sorta backs o'neill claims about harte up

What's Liam's excuse ?

Good PR management has meant that Liam's outburst is now nothing but a storm in a teacup.

Liam looks back but not in anger.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-games/you-are-doing-it-on-behalf-of-almost-the-entire-country-it-affected-everyone-31009907.html

A little fat bollix " if Mayo know what's good for them"

Quote from: larryin89 on February 21, 2015, 09:26:51 PM
A little fat bollix " if Mayo know what's good for them"

;D

Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.
"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."


Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

Quote from: screenexile on March 03, 2015, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

I would argue that AIB is relevant (yes it is a different model) and that it was a ridiculous comment. If you don't monitor how lucrative sponsorship has been for a sponsor, how the hell can you maximise revenue from sponsors? For Sky of course you monitor subscriptions. That is how you put the price up next time. For the banks, monitor how often they advertise using your brand and exactly what level of corporate activity they have, monitor the use of the GAA when they are in schools (I still have my bank account that I opened in school) and make sure you assess what value they put on the sponsorship in their AGMs and any statements they makes.

It is like renting out an office and not having a clue how much the tenant makes from sub-letting it.

What has been O'Neills legacy? The mark of a president.

Quote from: shawshank on March 03, 2015, 12:52:00 PM
What has been O'Neills legacy? The mark of a president.

The Sky Deal, and Mayo having to play in Limerick.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 03, 2015, 01:05:16 PM

Quote from: shawshank on March 03, 2015, 12:52:00 PM
What has been O'Neills legacy? The mark of a president.

The Sky Deal, and Mayo having to play in Limerick.

That sum it up, a brutal performance as a president

Quote from: muppet on March 03, 2015, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: screenexile on March 03, 2015, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

I would argue that AIB is relevant (yes it is a different model) and that it was a ridiculous comment. If you don't monitor how lucrative sponsorship has been for a sponsor, how the hell can you maximise revenue from sponsors? For Sky of course you monitor subscriptions. That is how you put the price up next time. For the banks, monitor how often they advertise using your brand and exactly what level of corporate activity they have, monitor the use of the GAA when they are in schools (I still have my bank account that I opened in school) and make sure you assess what value they put on the sponsorship in their AGMs and any statements they makes.

It is like renting out an office and not having a clue how much the tenant makes from sub-letting it.

They are not very good at STFU type comments. Maybe they would better off just saying "Lookit, that's the why".

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 03, 2015, 01:05:16 PM

Quote from: shawshank on March 03, 2015, 12:52:00 PM
What has been O'Neills legacy? The mark of a president.

The Sky Deal, and Mayo having to play in Limerick.

:D :D :D

He is about the only one who didn't 'get on with it'.

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 01:36:00 PM

Quote from: muppet on March 03, 2015, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: screenexile on March 03, 2015, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

I would argue that AIB is relevant (yes it is a different model) and that it was a ridiculous comment. If you don't monitor how lucrative sponsorship has been for a sponsor, how the hell can you maximise revenue from sponsors? For Sky of course you monitor subscriptions. That is how you put the price up next time. For the banks, monitor how often they advertise using your brand and exactly what level of corporate activity they have, monitor the use of the GAA when they are in schools (I still have my bank account that I opened in school) and make sure you assess what value they put on the sponsorship in their AGMs and any statements they makes.

It is like renting out an office and not having a clue how much the tenant makes from sub-letting it.

They are not very good at STFU type comments. Maybe they would better off just saying "Lookit, that's the why".

Exactly. Every time they open their mouths they sound out of touch and arrogant. And by they I mean the GAA executive.

I'm in favour of Sky giving RTE a serious wake up call in terms of their quality, but I would have backed the Clare motion to have the games on both. I realise that wouldn't have been a good move for Sky.

Sky's figures may be disappointing, but I'm sure they will be hoping for them to grow as they become established, and this summer isn't a World Cup year so we'll see.

However, the more comments that come out about this (and other items) are so annoying that you start to sway to the other side of the argument. As I said umpteen times at this stage, I'm like a broken record, it's obvious that there has been a shift in thinking in the GAA away from 'Let's raise enough money to increase our facilities and support our games' to 'Lets make our games more attractive for sponsors and partners, and increase our revenue streams'.

I have no doubt the aim is still one of reinvestment, but that subtle shift, if unchecked, will lead to decisions which favour the 'business plan' rather than the purpose of the business plan in the first place. ie. participation and enjoyment of our games.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 03, 2015, 01:59:56 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 01:36:00 PM

Quote from: muppet on March 03, 2015, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: screenexile on March 03, 2015, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

I would argue that AIB is relevant (yes it is a different model) and that it was a ridiculous comment. If you don't monitor how lucrative sponsorship has been for a sponsor, how the hell can you maximise revenue from sponsors? For Sky of course you monitor subscriptions. That is how you put the price up next time. For the banks, monitor how often they advertise using your brand and exactly what level of corporate activity they have, monitor the use of the GAA when they are in schools (I still have my bank account that I opened in school) and make sure you assess what value they put on the sponsorship in their AGMs and any statements they makes.

It is like renting out an office and not having a clue how much the tenant makes from sub-letting it.

They are not very good at STFU type comments. Maybe they would better off just saying "Lookit, that's the why".

Exactly. Every time they open their mouths they sound out of touch and arrogant. And by they I mean the GAA executive.

I'm in favour of Sky giving RTE a serious wake up call in terms of their quality, but I would have backed the Clare motion to have the games on both. I realise that wouldn't have been a good move for Sky.

Sky's figures may be disappointing, but I'm sure they will be hoping for them to grow as they become established, and this summer isn't a World Cup year so we'll see.

However, the more comments that come out about this (and other items) are so annoying that you start to sway to the other side of the argument. As I said umpteen times at this stage, I'm like a broken record, it's obvious that there has been a shift in thinking in the GAA away from 'Let's raise enough money to increase our facilities and support our games' to 'Lets make our games more attractive for sponsors and partners, and increase our revenue streams'.

I have no doubt the aim is still one of reinvestment, but that subtle shift, if unchecked, will lead to decisions which favour the 'business plan' rather than the purpose of the business plan in the first place. ie. participation and enjoyment of our games.

+1

Good post

Quote from: blewuporstuffed on March 03, 2015, 02:03:44 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 03, 2015, 01:59:56 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 01:36:00 PM

Quote from: muppet on March 03, 2015, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: screenexile on March 03, 2015, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

I would argue that AIB is relevant (yes it is a different model) and that it was a ridiculous comment. If you don't monitor how lucrative sponsorship has been for a sponsor, how the hell can you maximise revenue from sponsors? For Sky of course you monitor subscriptions. That is how you put the price up next time. For the banks, monitor how often they advertise using your brand and exactly what level of corporate activity they have, monitor the use of the GAA when they are in schools (I still have my bank account that I opened in school) and make sure you assess what value they put on the sponsorship in their AGMs and any statements they makes.

It is like renting out an office and not having a clue how much the tenant makes from sub-letting it.

They are not very good at STFU type comments. Maybe they would better off just saying "Lookit, that's the why".

Exactly. Every time they open their mouths they sound out of touch and arrogant. And by they I mean the GAA executive.

I'm in favour of Sky giving RTE a serious wake up call in terms of their quality, but I would have backed the Clare motion to have the games on both. I realise that wouldn't have been a good move for Sky.

Sky's figures may be disappointing, but I'm sure they will be hoping for them to grow as they become established, and this summer isn't a World Cup year so we'll see.

However, the more comments that come out about this (and other items) are so annoying that you start to sway to the other side of the argument. As I said umpteen times at this stage, I'm like a broken record, it's obvious that there has been a shift in thinking in the GAA away from 'Let's raise enough money to increase our facilities and support our games' to 'Lets make our games more attractive for sponsors and partners, and increase our revenue streams'.

I have no doubt the aim is still one of reinvestment, but that subtle shift, if unchecked, will lead to decisions which favour the 'business plan' rather than the purpose of the business plan in the first place. ie. participation and enjoyment of our games.

+1

Good post

In total agreement and the be all and end all will be the intercouty championships as they are the cash cow.

The club game is getting lip sevice and will continue to do so.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 03, 2015, 01:59:56 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 01:36:00 PM

Quote from: muppet on March 03, 2015, 12:44:10 PM

Quote from: screenexile on March 03, 2015, 11:48:26 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 03, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Aogán Ó Fearghail , the new Liam O'Neill, has all of his predecessor's aptitude for logic

ttp://www.rte.ie/sport/gaa/2015/0302/683878-new-gaa-president-hints-at-reduced-tv-coverage/


"The debate within the GAA is over as regards the media rights deal. There was no negative comment all weekend [at Congress] about the media deal. They are very comfortable with it.

"Whether the numbers of Sky are relevant to us, we don't go out checking how many people open new AIB bank accounts because they are a sponsor of ours."
Surely the Sky numbers are relevant in terms of the deal being renewed. AIB is a market leader that uses GAA sponsorship to keep competitors at a disadvantage. Very different models.

Fine bit of whataboutery there... AIB is irrelevant in this debate when we're talking about the ability of people to watch the GAA. Yes we have a new market of millions in the UK that can watch it but clearly they don't and it means less people in Ireland can watch it.

I was OK with the Sky deal at the start but the figures on display show that it has been a spectacular failure. What Company wants to advertise to an audience of 55,000? Sky won't be able to sustain it if that's the level of success they have!

I would argue that AIB is relevant (yes it is a different model) and that it was a ridiculous comment. If you don't monitor how lucrative sponsorship has been for a sponsor, how the hell can you maximise revenue from sponsors? For Sky of course you monitor subscriptions. That is how you put the price up next time. For the banks, monitor how often they advertise using your brand and exactly what level of corporate activity they have, monitor the use of the GAA when they are in schools (I still have my bank account that I opened in school) and make sure you assess what value they put on the sponsorship in their AGMs and any statements they makes.

It is like renting out an office and not having a clue how much the tenant makes from sub-letting it.

They are not very good at STFU type comments. Maybe they would better off just saying "Lookit, that's the why".

Exactly. Every time they open their mouths they sound out of touch and arrogant. And by they I mean the GAA executive.

I'm in favour of Sky giving RTE a serious wake up call in terms of their quality, but I would have backed the Clare motion to have the games on both. I realise that wouldn't have been a good move for Sky.

Sky's figures may be disappointing, but I'm sure they will be hoping for them to grow as they become established, and this summer isn't a World Cup year so we'll see.

However, the more comments that come out about this (and other items) are so annoying that you start to sway to the other side of the argument. As I said umpteen times at this stage, I'm like a broken record, it's obvious that there has been a shift in thinking in the GAA away from 'Let's raise enough money to increase our facilities and support our games' to 'Lets make our games more attractive for sponsors and partners, and increase our revenue streams'.

I have no doubt the aim is still one of reinvestment, but that subtle shift, if unchecked, will lead to decisions which favour the 'business plan' rather than the purpose of the business plan in the first place. ie. participation and enjoyment of our games.

Dead right AZ. They really pissed off the auld fella last year and he wouldn't be that bolshy. Very poor PR and taking the support for granted- advisors are crap. They can do way better.

Crap President but he is only a figurehead, the public face of where the GAA is going. And we know chasing the dollars is the priority because there'll soon be pro games to fund.

Poor president, failed to tackle the single biggest issue in the GAA (fixtures) in any way shape or form and has been a poor figurehead for the association. The Sky deal was something that I was open minded about but it clearly has backfired as well given the lack of viewing numbers. GAA is a distinctly Irish sport and doesn't need to try and seek approval from overseas markets, the most important audience are those who participate and are active members of the association. O'Neill hasn't brought the association forward in any way, shape or form. Conservative and has failed to tackle the big issues. 

Of course there won't be a pro game but no harm to throw in that boogey man again. How anyone can claim a TV deal has been a spectacular failure after one year is beyond logic. The NFL took 30 years to get a strong foothold in the UK and the GAA were expected to do it in a few months???

There was lads complaining about the decision to prevent 17 year olds getting flogged on another thread so it is clear that 'corporate GAA' is more often than not a throw away line when they do something that some people don't agree with and I've yet to see any decision being universally lauded.

I often wonder about some lads who complain about the club game being sidelined yet won't make many of the changes that could give the club game a chance. Lads on the one hand complain about club players getting no consideration yet totally reject the idea of separating the club and IC game. If you did that (and I'm not saying it is what we should do) all non-IC players could get as many games as the CB could provide for them and elite IC players could get a better structure to their season.

Other ways to help club players -

Bar dual IC players from minor up by fixing hurling and football on the same weekend, freeing up loads of weekends.

Get rid of the provincial championships which are won by a handful of counties anyway and set out a clear structured season, which could be played (both codes) within 4 months.

Get rid of replays at IC level.

Prevent anyone playing IC at more than one age group, would that get support from the clubs of small counties like Longford, Leitrim, Cavan etc.

Lots could be done to help all players but grassroots gaels would be up in arms about most, if not all of the above but will then spend the year complaining about corporate GAA.

QuoteGAA is a distinctly Irish sport and doesn't need to try and seek approval from overseas markets, the most important audience are those who participate and are active members of the association.

All sports started somewhere but have spread, so how is the GAA distinctly Irish? Even within Ireland it means different things to different people. How is showing it abroad, seeking approval from overseas markets and even if it is what's wrong with that?

I'll miss his smile.

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 04:46:46 PM

QuoteGAA is a distinctly Irish sport and doesn't need to try and seek approval from overseas markets, the most important audience are those who participate and are active members of the association.

All sports started somewhere but have spread, so how is the GAA distinctly Irish? Even within Ireland it means different things to different people. How is showing it abroad, seeking approval from overseas markets and even if it is what's wrong with that?

There is nothing wrong with it per se but when its at the expense of depriving the majority of its audience (active GAA members) the chance to watch the matches then its not healthy. The main body of people who wish to view the matches are based in Ireland and they have been denied access to plenty of championship games because of the Sky deal. A large part of the interest in GAA particularly outside of the latter end championship games, is because of its tribalism and local rivalries and being able to identify with players and teams.

I don't see that changing and despite the tweets from Jonny in Essex or Matt in Stockport about the amazing games I think the viewing figures give us a better picture about the mass appeal of the games to an outside audience.   

I suspect most active GAA members don't have much time to watch TV games.

My impression of Liam from a long way back, since before he became secretary of Laois Co Board, was that he was highly ambitious to advance himself in GAA administration.
Nothing wrong with that but it begs the question - what was his vision.
Was it only to climb the ladder or did he have a vision for what he wanted the GAA to become?

I found his claim when interviewed that he know from the age of 7 or 8 that he wanted to be President of the GAA hard to believe!

Liam can be impressive in meetings but he sometimes came across as sullen and defensive.
Easy from to say that of course as I was not the one wearing the crown!.

A good and decent GAA man, put a 100% effort into the role.

I suppose it's too soon to really say how effective a President he was.

Quote from: Give and Go on March 03, 2015, 05:37:18 PM
My impression of Liam from a long way back, since before he became secretary of Laois Co Board, was that he was highly ambitious to advance himself in GAA administration.
Nothing wrong with that but it begs the question - what was his vision.
Was it only to climb the ladder or did he have a vision for what he wanted the GAA to become?

I found his claim when interviewed that he know from the age of 7 or 8 that he wanted to be President of the GAA hard to believe!

Liam can be impressive in meetings but he sometimes came across as sullen and defensive.
Easy from to say that of course as I was not the one wearing the crown!.

A good and decent GAA man, put a 100% effort into the role.

I suppose it's too soon to really say how effective a President he was.

You won't get there if you have ideas that are different or if you have a vision. Like "real" politics, sadly.

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 04:44:08 PM
Of course there won't be a pro game but no harm to throw in that boogey man again. How anyone can claim a TV deal has been a spectacular failure after one year is beyond logic. The NFL took 30 years to get a strong foothold in the UK and the GAA were expected to do it in a few months???

There was lads complaining about the decision to prevent 17 year olds getting flogged on another thread so it is clear that 'corporate GAA' is more often than not a throw away line when they do something that some people don't agree with and I've yet to see any decision being universally lauded.

I often wonder about some lads who complain about the club game being sidelined yet won't make many of the changes that could give the club game a chance. Lads on the one hand complain about club players getting no consideration yet totally reject the idea of separating the club and IC game. If you did that (and I'm not saying it is what we should do) all non-IC players could get as many games as the CB could provide for them and elite IC players could get a better structure to their season.

Other ways to help club players -

Bar dual IC players from minor up by fixing hurling and football on the same weekend, freeing up loads of weekends.

Get rid of the provincial championships which are won by a handful of counties anyway and set out a clear structured season, which could be played (both codes) within 4 months.

Get rid of replays at IC level.

Prevent anyone playing IC at more than one age group, would that get support from the clubs of small counties like Longford, Leitrim, Cavan etc.

Lots could be done to help all players but grassroots gaels would be up in arms about most, if not all of the above but will then spend the year complaining about corporate GAA.

I'm not saying it to scare anyone. It is a natural progression of the direction the GAA is taking coupled with the demands made on players to be able to compete at the highest level. If that scares people then they should be scared. Because it is going to happen.

On Sky - I understand they're not too concerned with the viewing numbers at this point. They're just happy their production side of things passed muster and they expect things to grow.

International GAA clubs are as much a part of the grassroots as any club in Ireland.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 03, 2015, 06:04:16 PM

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 04:44:08 PM
Of course there won't be a pro game but no harm to throw in that boogey man again. How anyone can claim a TV deal has been a spectacular failure after one year is beyond logic. The NFL took 30 years to get a strong foothold in the UK and the GAA were expected to do it in a few months???

There was lads complaining about the decision to prevent 17 year olds getting flogged on another thread so it is clear that 'corporate GAA' is more often than not a throw away line when they do something that some people don't agree with and I've yet to see any decision being universally lauded.

I often wonder about some lads who complain about the club game being sidelined yet won't make many of the changes that could give the club game a chance. Lads on the one hand complain about club players getting no consideration yet totally reject the idea of separating the club and IC game. If you did that (and I'm not saying it is what we should do) all non-IC players could get as many games as the CB could provide for them and elite IC players could get a better structure to their season.

Other ways to help club players -

Bar dual IC players from minor up by fixing hurling and football on the same weekend, freeing up loads of weekends.

Get rid of the provincial championships which are won by a handful of counties anyway and set out a clear structured season, which could be played (both codes) within 4 months.

Get rid of replays at IC level.

Prevent anyone playing IC at more than one age group, would that get support from the clubs of small counties like Longford, Leitrim, Cavan etc.

Lots could be done to help all players but grassroots gaels would be up in arms about most, if not all of the above but will then spend the year complaining about corporate GAA.

I'm not saying it to scare anyone. It is a natural progression of the direction the GAA is taking coupled with the demands made on players to be able to compete at the highest level. If that scares people then they should be scared. Because it is going to happen.

It's not going to happen and nobody who has any notion of economics, the history of the GAA or a drop of common sense would think it. The size of the country, the ingrained nature of amateurism, the fact we are a dual code organisation (one might have a small chance but two professional sports have no chance) and the reality that counties like Cavan, Sligo, Roscommon, Longford and a good few others couldn't hope to sustain a professional sports team means there would never be enough teams to make a professional league viable.

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 09:10:23 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 03, 2015, 06:04:16 PM

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 04:44:08 PM
Of course there won't be a pro game but no harm to throw in that boogey man again. How anyone can claim a TV deal has been a spectacular failure after one year is beyond logic. The NFL took 30 years to get a strong foothold in the UK and the GAA were expected to do it in a few months???

There was lads complaining about the decision to prevent 17 year olds getting flogged on another thread so it is clear that 'corporate GAA' is more often than not a throw away line when they do something that some people don't agree with and I've yet to see any decision being universally lauded.

I often wonder about some lads who complain about the club game being sidelined yet won't make many of the changes that could give the club game a chance. Lads on the one hand complain about club players getting no consideration yet totally reject the idea of separating the club and IC game. If you did that (and I'm not saying it is what we should do) all non-IC players could get as many games as the CB could provide for them and elite IC players could get a better structure to their season.

Other ways to help club players -

Bar dual IC players from minor up by fixing hurling and football on the same weekend, freeing up loads of weekends.

Get rid of the provincial championships which are won by a handful of counties anyway and set out a clear structured season, which could be played (both codes) within 4 months.

Get rid of replays at IC level.

Prevent anyone playing IC at more than one age group, would that get support from the clubs of small counties like Longford, Leitrim, Cavan etc.

Lots could be done to help all players but grassroots gaels would be up in arms about most, if not all of the above but will then spend the year complaining about corporate GAA.

I'm not saying it to scare anyone. It is a natural progression of the direction the GAA is taking coupled with the demands made on players to be able to compete at the highest level. If that scares people then they should be scared. Because it is going to happen.

It's not going to happen and nobody who has any notion of economics, the history of the GAA or a drop of common sense would think it. The size of the country, the ingrained nature of amateurism, the fact we are a dual code organisation (one might have a small chance but two professional sports have no chance) and the reality that counties like Cavan, Sligo, Roscommon, Longford and a good few others couldn't hope to sustain a professional sports team means there would never be enough teams to make a professional league viable.

Even with a bigger population emigration would tear the heart out of the cohort that would pay the subs to support professionalism. Not going to happen.

You could list 101 reasons.

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 09:10:23 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 03, 2015, 06:04:16 PM

Quote from: Zulu on March 03, 2015, 04:44:08 PM
Of course there won't be a pro game but no harm to throw in that boogey man again. How anyone can claim a TV deal has been a spectacular failure after one year is beyond logic. The NFL took 30 years to get a strong foothold in the UK and the GAA were expected to do it in a few months???

There was lads complaining about the decision to prevent 17 year olds getting flogged on another thread so it is clear that 'corporate GAA' is more often than not a throw away line when they do something that some people don't agree with and I've yet to see any decision being universally lauded.

I often wonder about some lads who complain about the club game being sidelined yet won't make many of the changes that could give the club game a chance. Lads on the one hand complain about club players getting no consideration yet totally reject the idea of separating the club and IC game. If you did that (and I'm not saying it is what we should do) all non-IC players could get as many games as the CB could provide for them and elite IC players could get a better structure to their season.

Other ways to help club players -

Bar dual IC players from minor up by fixing hurling and football on the same weekend, freeing up loads of weekends.

Get rid of the provincial championships which are won by a handful of counties anyway and set out a clear structured season, which could be played (both codes) within 4 months.

Get rid of replays at IC level.

Prevent anyone playing IC at more than one age group, would that get support from the clubs of small counties like Longford, Leitrim, Cavan etc.

Lots could be done to help all players but grassroots gaels would be up in arms about most, if not all of the above but will then spend the year complaining about corporate GAA.

I'm not saying it to scare anyone. It is a natural progression of the direction the GAA is taking coupled with the demands made on players to be able to compete at the highest level. If that scares people then they should be scared. Because it is going to happen.

It's not going to happen and nobody who has any notion of economics, the history of the GAA or a drop of common sense would think it. The size of the country, the ingrained nature of amateurism, the fact we are a dual code organisation (one might have a small chance but two professional sports have no chance) and the reality that counties like Cavan, Sligo, Roscommon, Longford and a good few others couldn't hope to sustain a professional sports team means there would never be enough teams to make a professional league viable.

Rubbish. Intercounty managers are paid handsomely, bankrupting some counties. Even the players are getting payment for playing, a grand or two each depending on how far they go. Call it extra expenses (we're amateur) or a grant (honestly Mr Revenue) but it's money for playing intercounty gaelic games.

Counties like Cavan, Sligo, Roscommon, Longford will have to fall in or be left behind (as in real life). There's too much money involved in the bigger counties for this to not happen.

Will you stop man, you're embarrassing yourself. I don't think there's a single person reading your nonsense that thinks you're even remotely close to any facts.

Most IC managers don't get a penny above expenses and I've never heard of a player getting paid. And even if your wild speculation was true, there is a huge difference between giving a manger a few bob and funding a management team, a squad of 30 players, an underage academy (+ staff), building a modern ground that will encourage people to come on a weekly basis, marketing staff, match day staff, transportation and a hundred other things that go into running a professional sport.

And all that is on top of the fact that nobody in the GAA wants or thinks it a professional GAA is realistic, bar you, it seems.

Seanie is is right. Professionalism is almost inevitable. Not a professional All Ireland championship as it exists now. That is of course uneconomic. The GAA Football Premiership will consist of about ten teams franchises. Sorry, but that will not include Longford, Leitrim or 20 other counties. Unviable business units.

Ok so. Perhaps you and Seanie can walk us through the steps to this professional set up. Start off with the teams involved, where they'll play home games, how these teams, sorry franchises, will structure their season to generate the kind of money needed to survive, provide us with the costings (transportation, ground development, staff salaries, tax implications etc.) and the revenue (ticket sales, TV revenue, sponsorship). In addition tell us what will happen to the code that doesn't go professional or do both go pro? Also enlighten us on how congress, the governing body of the association, will vote this change in when nobody wants it. Once you've done that please tell us what will happen to county boards, underage county squads, how transfers will work, what the likely salary will be for players and the hundred other things you boys have no doubt considered before stating such a bonkers certainty on this forum?

Hardy, you've been debating on the thread about God with Tony F and others, well your position that a professional GAA is 'almost inevitable' is supported by even less evidence than God viewing homosexuality a sin. Please enlighten us to the evidence this is inevitable and how it can be structured and sustained. Otherwise you both appear to be the forum equivalent to a man standing on a street corner ringing a bell and telling us all to repent for the end is nigh!

Quote from: Hardy on March 04, 2015, 12:31:00 AM
Seanie is is right. Professionalism is almost inevitable. Not a professional All Ireland championship as it exists now. That is of course uneconomic. The GAA Football Premiership will consist of about ten teams franchises. Sorry, but that will not include Longford, Leitrim or 20 other counties. Unviable business units.

I really can't see that happening or if it did, it would be the end of the GAA as we know it.

As we already know Team Mayo haven't got the nails to scratch themselves and they got to a good few AI's in the last few years and that's where the money is supposed to be, so the current model would need serious revision and more than likely a split in the current structures!

How does rugby support 4 professional teams? Is the international dimension (6-8 home games a year max) that much more lucrative than 3 sellout concerts and an American football match (in a larger stadium) that a minority sport can finance 4 full time professional competitive teams? Gaelic games could support 10 football teams easily. The only difficulty could be with the Ulster teams where the original GAA ethos of being community based and amateur is still strong. The general population in the rest of the country would have zero issue with players getting paid.

I would prefer if the GAA leadership would steer away from this course but they seem quite happy with the way it's going.

To say no-one in the GAA wants players to be paid is complete rubbish.

As I say I have no wish for this to happen and even less to draw out a strategy for achieving it. 20 odd years ago when the GAA allowed shirt sponsorship if Hardy and I suggested counties would be getting million euro deals in time to come you'd have locked us up too! This will happen and it will make the GAA better for the 98% of us not involved with the intercounty game.

the only way it could go professional is by a complete breakaway, Kerry packer style
That would give the organisers the freedome to make the rules that suited them. its away of overcoming most Zulu's problems.
it brings others like mainly being
1)where would they play?
2)would anybody care?
for problem 1 there are loads of pitches around . most sports use smaller pitches so maybe the game would have to be 11 or 13 a side
problem 2 is a tougher one. would they be IPL type superteams with players mixed in from everywhere or maybe regional teams  where you pick 8 strong teams  and allow them the pick of weaker neighbours or maybe weaker couties might form regional grouping to take on the stronger teams . But i can see the big franchise names like Dublin Kerry Galway cork being abandoned

I'm not sure either of these would work but would inevitably Force the GAA to Make Major concessions to the GPA and other looking for Professionalism

Seanie, I'd disagree and say that GAA couldn't fund 10 teams. Not a chance it could or will happen without TV money on a scale that only comes from international markets.

I just can't see a model where it will work. County teams can barely fund themselves at the minute bar a few exceptions. Add in the wage levels of another 30 players and further backroom staff and on no level can that be built into an Irish Market.

Even current county boards take a lot of their funding from Club championships, under a professional model this is gone, so you even need further funding.

The 4 professional rugby clubs play in 2 international competitions.
There's all sorts of TV monies etc and they only have 100 players or so.
A 10 team Gaelic football  pro league playing in a small domestic market with 300 players is a total non runner and will never happen.
Zulu has done a brilliant debunking of the we're all doomed merchants. He is a consistent voice of reason and common sense on this forum.
As for Liam O'Neill - like most GAA Presidents he's come and gone and the world keeps turning as usual.
The only President to shake things up was Sean Kelly and he ended up as GAA Board public enemy no 1.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2015, 09:49:09 AM
How does rugby support 4 professional teams? Is the international dimension (6-8 home games a year max) that much more lucrative than 3 sellout concerts and an American football match (in a larger stadium) that a minority sport can finance 4 full time professional competitive teams? Gaelic games could support 10 football teams easily. The only difficulty could be with the Ulster teams where the original GAA ethos of being community based and amateur is still strong. The general population in the rest of the country would have zero issue with players getting paid.

I would prefer if the GAA leadership would steer away from this course but they seem quite happy with the way it's going.

To say no-one in the GAA wants players to be paid is complete rubbish.

As I say I have no wish for this to happen and even less to draw out a strategy for achieving it. 20 odd years ago when the GAA allowed shirt sponsorship if Hardy and I suggested counties would be getting million euro deals in time to come you'd have locked us up too! This will happen and it will make the GAA better for the 98% of us not involved with the intercounty game.

So you've no answers to the questions?

Both Munster and Ulster rugby are in serious financial trouble as far as I know and all 4 provinces get help from sugar daddies, they can also tap into a whole province for themselves with none of the issues of supporters being asked to support a team that has replaced their own team. Welsh rugby is a much closer comparison to what a professional GAA might face. The rugby team also get far more than 6-8 home games and they get to share in the TV money that countries like France and Britain can generate, something a professional GAA could never do.

I don't know what your point about concerts and American football is about, are you saying each 'franchise' could host these each year to fund themselves?

It isn't rubbish to say nobody wants a professional GAA, I've yet to meet a GAA person that wants it and even if any do they know it isn't realistic.

Comparing sponsorship figures, which of course rise over time, and turning the whole organisation professional is as weak as the rest of your points.

rosnarun, a breakaway is impossible. As you reference, they'd have nowhere to play and nobody would care. If the four rugby teams only played each other you wouldn't get a man and his dog at it, LOI soccer were competing against international sides like Leeds, Wolves, Hearts you can be sure they'd get much bigger crowds that they get.

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 08:12:56 AM
Ok so. Perhaps you and Seanie can walk us through the steps to this professional set up. Start off with the teams involved, where they'll play home games, how these teams, sorry franchises, will structure their season to generate the kind of money needed to survive, provide us with the costings (transportation, ground development, staff salaries, tax implications etc.) and the revenue (ticket sales, TV revenue, sponsorship). In addition tell us what will happen to the code that doesn't go professional or do both go pro? Also enlighten us on how congress, the governing body of the association, will vote this change in when nobody wants it. Once you've done that please tell us what will happen to county boards, underage county squads, how transfers will work, what the likely salary will be for players and the hundred other things you boys have no doubt considered before stating such a bonkers certainty on this forum?

Hardy, you've been debating on the thread about God with Tony F and others, well your position that a professional GAA is 'almost inevitable' is supported by even less evidence than God viewing homosexuality a sin. Please enlighten us to the evidence this is inevitable and how it can be structured and sustained. Otherwise you both appear to be the forum equivalent to a man standing on a street corner ringing a bell and telling us all to repent for the end is nigh!

Zulu, I've "enlightened" you countless times on this subject and dealt more than once with each of the objections you raise. I have to conclude you're not open to enlightenment. Otherwise you'd at least have remembered the arguments.

If you're serious about wanting to consider my argument you'll find it in the back pages of this board. Google things like Bank Of Ireland Dublin Demons, Munster Monsters, goodbye Leitrim and Longford, professionalism foisted on rugby, tennis, etc. against the wishes of the majority, professionalism existing in (and ruining) minority sports that don't attract 10% of the audience the GAA does, etc.

The experience of practically every other sport on the planet has been that the rolling snowball of professionalism avalanches over everything. Maybe we're different, but as a betting man, I won't be investing a penny in that proposition.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2015, 09:49:09 AM
How does rugby support 4 professional teams? Is the international dimension (6-8 home games a year max) that much more lucrative than 3 sellout concerts and an American football match (in a larger stadium) that a minority sport can finance 4 full time professional competitive teams? Gaelic games could support 10 football teams easily. The only difficulty could be with the Ulster teams where the original GAA ethos of being community based and amateur is still strong. The general population in the rest of the country would have zero issue with players getting paid.

I would prefer if the GAA leadership would steer away from this course but they seem quite happy with the way it's going.

To say no-one in the GAA wants players to be paid is complete rubbish.

As I say I have no wish for this to happen and even less to draw out a strategy for achieving it. 20 odd years ago when the GAA allowed shirt sponsorship if Hardy and I suggested counties would be getting million euro deals in time to come you'd have locked us up too! This will happen and it will make the GAA better for the 98% of us not involved with the intercounty game.

I agree with all that, Seanie, except that it would improve the GAA for the rest of us. I contend that it would ruin it and that's based solely on the evidence of every other sport where it's happened. The elite level devours all resources. That means less money for coaching, hurleys for kids, decent facilities for clubs, etc. Look at club rugby here. Clubs are reduced to flogging their international tickets to survive.

By they way, Zulu and Rossfan, your contention that professional GAA couldn't succeed may even be right. But that's got nothing to do with the question of whether it will happen. Whether it thrives as a commercial venture or falls on its arse like League f Ireland soccer is neither here nor there to me. Either way it will ruin the GAA.

Quote from: rosnarun on March 04, 2015, 09:54:48 AM
the only way it could go professional is by a complete breakaway, Kerry packer style
That would give the organisers the freedome to make the rules that suited them. its away of overcoming most Zulu's problems.
it brings others like mainly being
1)where would they play?
2)would anybody care?
for problem 1 there are loads of pitches around . most sports use smaller pitches so maybe the game would have to be 11 or 13 a side
problem 2 is a tougher one. would they be IPL type superteams with players mixed in from everywhere or maybe regional teams  where you pick 8 strong teams  and allow them the pick of weaker neighbours or maybe weaker couties might form regional grouping to take on the stronger teams . But i can see the big franchise names like Dublin Kerry Galway cork being abandoned

I'm not sure either of these would work but would inevitably Force the GAA to Make Major concessions to the GPA and other looking for Professionalism

The GAA has been quite clever on this one. County Grounds have only received central funds for development on condition that the CBs take ownership. This would make a breakaway much more difficult.

QuoteZulu, I've "enlightened" you countless times on this subject and dealt more than once with each of the objections you raise. I have to conclude you're not open to enlightenment. Otherwise you'd at least have remembered the arguments.

Hardy, if you can recall all the points I've made on every topic we've discussed on this forum I'd be impressed and will then trawl through old topics to be enlightened. However, you could simply help me out and provide some simple answers to things like which code, how much will players be paid, do any home grounds need to be upgraded, how do transfers work? These should be fairly short easy answers for you.

I don't think any professional sport attracts 10% of a GAA audience, in Ireland yes, but worldwide? You would, I presume concede that it is the international market that allows most sports to be professional.

I'm not sure about the status of all other sports but perhaps you can tell me about another sport that is confined to a single country with a population of circa 5 million that has gone professional? Then we will have a realistic reference point.

Quote from: Hardy on March 04, 2015, 10:21:29 AM
By they way, Zulu and Rossfan, your contention that professional GAA couldn't succeed may even be right. But that's got nothing to do with the question of whether it will happen. Whether it thrives as a commercial venture or falls on its arse like League f Ireland soccer is neither here nor there to me. Either way it will ruin the GAA.

Rugby and soccer are only professional in this country because they went professional internationally. Where would similar pressure come from within the GAA? Unlike some here, I have no principled objection to a professional GAA, i.e. I don;'t have an issue with the concept of an elite getting paid while others volunteer but I wouldn't support a move to a professional GAA for numerous reasons. So how you could get a groundswell of opinion for a professional GAA that would mean one of the codes goes to the wall, numerous county teams cease to exist, salaries are unlikely to be enough in a 5-10 year professional life to make it more attractive than getting a degree and decent job, TV money is bound to be low (perhaps even lower than now as RTE know they'll have little competition and the professional teams desperately need the money), ground ownership issues etc. etc. etc.

There is nothing inevitable about a professional GAA, in fact it only inevitable thing is it won't go professional.

Zulu,

Do you think the GAA won't go professional because the logistics and money won't be there, or do you think it won't go professional because there's no appetite for it?

I don't believe we'll see it because of the former. I absolutely believe the latter would not be an issue.

I think there is some appetite for it among some people, managers being the main ones, and probably some players quite fancying it.

However the logistics and the economics of it represent insurmountable challenges, especially when you look at how soccer and rugby are faring as professional sports in Ireland.

If it does ever become professional it's not going to be in anyone here's lifetime.

Both AZ. Of course there are minor/U21 IC players who would love to get paid for playing GAA and there are some casual supporters who think the players should get paid but outside of that the number of genuine GAA folk who want a professional GAA would be minimal. Christ we can't even give Sky a few games without holy war so suggesting their would be a majority (or even close) of GAA people looking for a professional game is not reality.

However, even if the above wasn't true, once you sat down and did the numbers it would be patently clear that it couldn't work. If the 'North West Dragons Gaelic football team' were able to give the Brits a hammering or Frenchy a good thumping or the Yanks a taste of their own medicine then you could see a bandwagon grow (along with international TV money and increased sponsorship opportunities) but if they could only beat the 'Dublin Warriors' or the 'Midland...errr...Merchants' then they wouldn't have a chance. Especially when teams with a history and genuine support base like Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo were disbanded to create this franchise. Suggesting that GAA folk or casual supporters would hop on the bandwagon is fantasy.

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Both AZ. Of course there are minor/U21 IC players who would love to get paid for playing GAA and there are some casual supporters who think the players should get paid but outside of that the number of genuine GAA folk who want a professional GAA would be minimal. Christ we can't even give Sky a few games without holy war so suggesting their would be a majority (or even close) of GAA people looking for a professional game is not reality.

However, even if the above wasn't true, once you sat down and did the numbers it would be patently clear that it couldn't work. If the 'North West Dragons Gaelic football team' were able to give the Brits a hammering or Frenchy a good thumping or the Yanks a taste of their own medicine then you could see a bandwagon grow (along with international TV money and increased sponsorship opportunities) but if they could only beat the 'Dublin Warriors' or the 'Midland...errr...Merchants' then they wouldn't have a chance. Especially when teams with a history and genuine support base like Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo were disbanded to create this franchise. Suggesting that GAA folk or casual supporters would hop on the bandwagon is fantasy.

I don't think the numbers stack up, but if they did, I have no doubt a 'business case' would be made to go professional at the highest level. I'm not talking about players or managers agitating for it. Of course some players would love to be paid for playing GAA.

I don't think it will happen, but I don't trust our leadership to protect against it if, for example, some US American billionaire wanted to start off a tournament that paid the players to play, in a sort of All Star event, and guaranteed the GAA 10 million or something if it went ahead.

Obviously I'm painting an unrealistic scenario, but what I'm getting at is I think the only reason we won't see it, is because of the financial realities, as opposed to a staunch defence of core principles at the highest, leadership, levels.

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Both AZ. Of course there are minor/U21 IC players who would love to get paid for playing GAA and there are some casual supporters who think the players should get paid but outside of that the number of genuine GAA folk who want a professional GAA would be minimal. Christ we can't even give Sky a few games without holy war so suggesting their would be a majority (or even close) of GAA people looking for a professional game is not reality.

However, even if the above wasn't true, once you sat down and did the numbers it would be patently clear that it couldn't work. If the 'North West Dragons Gaelic football team' were able to give the Brits a hammering or Frenchy a good thumping or the Yanks a taste of their own medicine then you could see a bandwagon grow (along with international TV money and increased sponsorship opportunities) but if they could only beat the 'Dublin Warriors' or the 'Midland...errr...Merchants' then they wouldn't have a chance. Especially when teams with a history and genuine support base like Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo were disbanded to create this franchise. Suggesting that GAA folk or casual supporters would hop on the bandwagon is fantasy.

For anyone pondering the idea of creating franchises just have a look at the crowd numbers for the Railway Cup/Interprovincial games in recent years, where you have 4 teams comprised of the best players in the country representing their province. 

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 10:57:04 AM

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Both AZ. Of course there are minor/U21 IC players who would love to get paid for playing GAA and there are some casual supporters who think the players should get paid but outside of that the number of genuine GAA folk who want a professional GAA would be minimal. Christ we can't even give Sky a few games without holy war so suggesting their would be a majority (or even close) of GAA people looking for a professional game is not reality.

However, even if the above wasn't true, once you sat down and did the numbers it would be patently clear that it couldn't work. If the 'North West Dragons Gaelic football team' were able to give the Brits a hammering or Frenchy a good thumping or the Yanks a taste of their own medicine then you could see a bandwagon grow (along with international TV money and increased sponsorship opportunities) but if they could only beat the 'Dublin Warriors' or the 'Midland...errr...Merchants' then they wouldn't have a chance. Especially when teams with a history and genuine support base like Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo were disbanded to create this franchise. Suggesting that GAA folk or casual supporters would hop on the bandwagon is fantasy.

I don't think the numbers stack up, but if they did, I have no doubt a 'business case' would be made to go professional at the highest level. I'm not talking about players or managers agitating for it. Of course some players would love to be paid for playing GAA.

I don't think it will happen, but I don't trust our leadership to protect against it if, for example, some US American billionaire wanted to start off a tournament that paid the players to play, in a sort of All Star event, and guaranteed the GAA 10 million or something if it went ahead.

Obviously I'm painting an unrealistic scenario, but what I'm getting at is I think the only reason we won't see it, is because of the financial realities, as opposed to a staunch defence of core principles at the highest, leadership, levels.

Interesting. . . would that be a model that could happen? Something akin to the Indian Premier League in Cricket where they just announce there are to be 8 franchises and a free for all for players with some kind of draft/auction system for them?

It's hard to see what way they could go professional because anything more than 8 teams I don't think would be sustainable and anything less would not be worth it.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 10:57:04 AM

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Both AZ. Of course there are minor/U21 IC players who would love to get paid for playing GAA and there are some casual supporters who think the players should get paid but outside of that the number of genuine GAA folk who want a professional GAA would be minimal. Christ we can't even give Sky a few games without holy war so suggesting their would be a majority (or even close) of GAA people looking for a professional game is not reality.

However, even if the above wasn't true, once you sat down and did the numbers it would be patently clear that it couldn't work. If the 'North West Dragons Gaelic football team' were able to give the Brits a hammering or Frenchy a good thumping or the Yanks a taste of their own medicine then you could see a bandwagon grow (along with international TV money and increased sponsorship opportunities) but if they could only beat the 'Dublin Warriors' or the 'Midland...errr...Merchants' then they wouldn't have a chance. Especially when teams with a history and genuine support base like Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo were disbanded to create this franchise. Suggesting that GAA folk or casual supporters would hop on the bandwagon is fantasy.

I don't think the numbers stack up, but if they did, I have no doubt a 'business case' would be made to go professional at the highest level. I'm not talking about players or managers agitating for it. Of course some players would love to be paid for playing GAA.

I don't think it will happen, but I don't trust our leadership to protect against it if, for example, some US American billionaire wanted to start off a tournament that paid the players to play, in a sort of All Star event, and guaranteed the GAA 10 million or something if it went ahead.

Obviously I'm painting an unrealistic scenario, but what I'm getting at is I think the only reason we won't see it, is because of the financial realities, as opposed to a staunch defence of core principles at the highest, leadership, levels.

I'd disagree AZ. I wouldn't say I'm best pals with any of the GAA movers and shakers but I know quite a few, including the president, and I don't get the impression that any of them would consider it for a second. I've been to congress and I would argue that the majority of those there are hugely traditional in outlook and would be utterly opposed to such moves. Maybe I'm naive but I believe the GAA leadership want more money to drive a traditional model of the GAA, not a radical, professional one.

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 11:07:04 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 10:57:04 AM

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 10:51:18 AM
Both AZ. Of course there are minor/U21 IC players who would love to get paid for playing GAA and there are some casual supporters who think the players should get paid but outside of that the number of genuine GAA folk who want a professional GAA would be minimal. Christ we can't even give Sky a few games without holy war so suggesting their would be a majority (or even close) of GAA people looking for a professional game is not reality.

However, even if the above wasn't true, once you sat down and did the numbers it would be patently clear that it couldn't work. If the 'North West Dragons Gaelic football team' were able to give the Brits a hammering or Frenchy a good thumping or the Yanks a taste of their own medicine then you could see a bandwagon grow (along with international TV money and increased sponsorship opportunities) but if they could only beat the 'Dublin Warriors' or the 'Midland...errr...Merchants' then they wouldn't have a chance. Especially when teams with a history and genuine support base like Donegal, Leitrim and Sligo were disbanded to create this franchise. Suggesting that GAA folk or casual supporters would hop on the bandwagon is fantasy.

I don't think the numbers stack up, but if they did, I have no doubt a 'business case' would be made to go professional at the highest level. I'm not talking about players or managers agitating for it. Of course some players would love to be paid for playing GAA.

I don't think it will happen, but I don't trust our leadership to protect against it if, for example, some US American billionaire wanted to start off a tournament that paid the players to play, in a sort of All Star event, and guaranteed the GAA 10 million or something if it went ahead.

Obviously I'm painting an unrealistic scenario, but what I'm getting at is I think the only reason we won't see it, is because of the financial realities, as opposed to a staunch defence of core principles at the highest, leadership, levels.

I'd disagree AZ. I wouldn't say I'm best pals with any of the GAA movers and shakers but I know quite a few, including the president, and I don't get the impression that any of them would consider it for a second. I've been to congress and I would argue that the majority of those there are hugely traditional in outlook and would be utterly opposed to such moves. Maybe I'm naive but I believe the GAA leadership want more money to drive a traditional model of the GAA, not a radical, professional one.

I think by and large they have the best interests of the GAA at heart, but I think they've lost sight, in some ways, of what that is. Making more money, increasing revenue streams and 'global appeal' seem to be driving their thinking, rather than having those things as facilitators for the games themselves. It sometimes appears as if the making of more money has become the raison d'etre, even if I absolutely believe the money is used to plough back into the association. I'm not suggesting profiteering or anything.

I also think it's being done with genuine reasons, but I could easily foresee a position where a money making initiative, where the players involved got paid to play, could be pitched (in that sort of context) and agreed to. Again with perfectly noble aims in terms of reinvesting the money.

Comparing the GAA to the Indian Cricket league.... 5,000,000 pop against 1,000,000,000 and counting.
If I was a top level IC player of course I'd love to be paid €60 -€70k a year for it rather than giving the serious level of committment required for a few free dinners, biteen of expenses, medal presentations and maybe an odd oul endorsement if I was with a leading County.
We'd probably also get a higher standard at the top level.
However there isn't the population to sustain it, the commercial and tv revenue to pay for it and who the hell would want to watch the Midland Maestros playing the Ulster Ultimates in Lissywoolen or City Calling Stadium in some 12 a side Kerry Packer thingy?

I really don't get that impression from anyone I've spoken to who all come across as genuine and grounded GAA folk that don't view the GAA like that. However, I'm not really arguing about the views of others (that's pure speculation anyway) but once you do the math, as they say, it becomes crystal clear that its a non-runner and that's really where the debate should start and end. It doesn't matter what people want or think it only matters what's realistic and I think most people realise that.

I agree with that in general. I don't think it's a realistic option.

My worry would only be if it *became* realistic through some revenue channel or other, I think it would happen.

Quote from: Rossfan on March 04, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
Comparing the GAA to the Indian Cricket league.... 5,000,000 pop against 1,000,000,000 and counting.
If I was a top level IC player of course I'd love to be paid €60 -€70k a year for it rather than giving the serious level of committment required for a few free dinners, biteen of expenses, medal presentations and maybe an odd oul endorsement if I was with a leading County.
We'd probably also get a higher standard at the top level.
However there isn't the population to sustain it, the commercial and tv revenue to pay for it and who the hell would want to watch the Midland Maestros playing the Ulster Ultimates in Lissywoolen or City Calling Stadium in some 12 a side Kerry Packer thingy?

Would 2 Teams per Province not do it? Maybe after the Cities in each of the provinces so Derry/Belfast - Dublin/Tallaght - Cork/Limerick - Galway/Sligo

You're only problem there I would think is Connacht as I reckon you would get enough supporters following the rest of the teams.... maybe have one team in Galway and another in the Midlands? 

Not that I want it to happen I'm just fascinated as to how a professional model would work in the GAA. 

Well again, we are really just speculating but I don't think they would. Even if you're right I can't see where a change so dramatic would come from. The population is never going to be big enough to sustain it naturally so it would be dependent on benefactors which would be no way to build a professional game. Besides, even with all that you'd have such a monumental upheaval in the way the GAA is run that I couldn't see anyone actually going for it in the end.

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 11:39:45 AM
Well again, we are really just speculating but I don't think they would. Even if you're right I can't see where a change so dramatic would come from. The population is never going to be big enough to sustain it naturally so it would be dependent on benefactors which would be no way to build a professional game. Besides, even with all that you'd have such a monumental upheaval in the way the GAA is run that I couldn't see anyone actually going for it in the end.

I'm just more suspicious than you :) Plus I've outlined in various threads my impression regarding the fundraising tail wagging the games dog. Anyhow, I'm in agreement with you regardless in terms of the likelihood, or lack thereof, of it happening.

Quote from: screenexile on March 04, 2015, 11:35:28 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on March 04, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
Comparing the GAA to the Indian Cricket league.... 5,000,000 pop against 1,000,000,000 and counting.
If I was a top level IC player of course I'd love to be paid €60 -€70k a year for it rather than giving the serious level of committment required for a few free dinners, biteen of expenses, medal presentations and maybe an odd oul endorsement if I was with a leading County.
We'd probably also get a higher standard at the top level.
However there isn't the population to sustain it, the commercial and tv revenue to pay for it and who the hell would want to watch the Midland Maestros playing the Ulster Ultimates in Lissywoolen or City Calling Stadium in some 12 a side Kerry Packer thingy?

Would 2 Teams per Province not do it? Maybe after the Cities in each of the provinces so Derry/Belfast - Dublin/Tallaght - Cork/Limerick - Galway/Sligo

You're only problem there I would think is Connacht as I reckon you would get enough supporters following the rest of the teams.... maybe have one team in Galway and another in the Midlands? 

Not that I want it to happen I'm just fascinated as to how a professional model would work in the GAA.

Have a look at how much interest there has been lately when there was actually 1 team per province as per the interprovincials -attendances in the low hundreds.

Quote from: screenexile on March 04, 2015, 11:35:28 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on March 04, 2015, 11:24:45 AM
Comparing the GAA to the Indian Cricket league.... 5,000,000 pop against 1,000,000,000 and counting.
If I was a top level IC player of course I'd love to be paid €60 -€70k a year for it rather than giving the serious level of committment required for a few free dinners, biteen of expenses, medal presentations and maybe an odd oul endorsement if I was with a leading County.
We'd probably also get a higher standard at the top level.
However there isn't the population to sustain it, the commercial and tv revenue to pay for it and who the hell would want to watch the Midland Maestros playing the Ulster Ultimates in Lissywoolen or City Calling Stadium in some 12 a side Kerry Packer thingy?

Would 2 Teams per Province not do it? Maybe after the Cities in each of the provinces so Derry/Belfast - Dublin/Tallaght - Cork/Limerick - Galway/Sligo

You're only problem there I would think is Connacht as I reckon you would get enough supporters following the rest of the teams.... maybe have one team in Galway and another in the Midlands? 

Not that I want it to happen I'm just fascinated as to how a professional model would work in the GAA.

Not a chance that would work. Cork, Limerick, Galway, Derry and Belfast cities are all Gaelic football black spots from a support point of view, why would they start coming out in droves on a weekly basis for a made up entity?

It really is quite simple, without an international dimension a professional GAA is a non-runner.

How about semi professional, a lá League of Ireland?

Quote from: Zulu on March 04, 2015, 10:23:20 AM
provide some simple answers to things like which code, how much will players be paid, do any home grounds need to be upgraded, how do transfers work? These should be fairly short easy answers for you.

Zulu, this is a bit rich. You only have to say professionalism won't work because there's no appetite for it and no money for it. Research done. Good man. But when I disagree with you, you demand actuarial costings, business projections, stadium plans, etc. Can you wait a few months?

It's tiresome having to answer the same questions over and over. But once more:

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You would, I presume concede that it is the international market that allows most sports to be professional.

There's a professional women's handball league in Denmark.

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I'm not sure about the status of all other sports but perhaps you can tell me about another sport that is confined to a single country with a population of circa 5 million that has gone professional?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Basketball_League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_Basketball_League)  Fifteen seconds on Wiki. Another ten seconds – population of Albania: 2.77 million. (The Albanian league IS confined to Albania.)

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Where would similar pressure come from within the GAA?

It wouldn't necessarily come from within the GAA at all. But it might – from the potential beneficiaries within the GAA. Dessie, where are you?

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So how you could get a groundswell of opinion for a professional GAA that would mean one of the codes goes to the wall, numerous county teams cease to exist

You throw in the suggestion that one code would "go to the wall" as if it was a fact. Never mind. In the two sports that made the transition from amateur to pro that I know most about (rugby and tennis) there was no groundswell of opinion within the sport for professionalism. There was the opposite. The huge majority were against it. But the commercial interests and player beneficiaries got their way against the wishes of the majority. Maybe we're different, but I'm not so sure. If I had posted here ten years ago that within five years there would be an annual payment to players of nearly €2 million, diverted from GAA central funds, I'd have been laughed at. And 95% of GAA members would have voted against it. It happened, though. How?

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salaries are unlikely to be enough in a 5-10 year professional life to make it more attractive than getting a degree and decent job, TV money is bound to be low (perhaps even lower than now as RTE know they'll have little competition and the professional teams desperately need the money), ground ownership issues etc. etc. etc.

All of these issues exist within professional soccer in this country. Nevertheless, the League Of Ireland (or whatever it's called this week) has been professional or semi-pro for at least fifty years. 


In summary, despite your insinuation to the contrary, my contention about the inevitability of professionalism is based on the hard evidence of what we've seen in every other sport where vested interests spotted the commercial opportunities offered by professionalising the game and managed to win, usually against the wishes of the great majority of the ordinary players and members. I'm simply saying it's reasonable to expect that the same outcome is likely in our case.

I think I've dealt with each of the statements you put forward in support of your contention that somehow our case is different, so I'm lobbing the ball back into your court there.

A general point: one argument against the possibility of professionalism is that the GAA public wouldn't be interested in it. For one thing, the GAA public is not the only target audience. For another, every experience with other sports making the transition shows the opposite. The new, glitzy, packaged for TV, rule-revised version always gets the audience. One reason is because it's the only version on TV. And pointing to the lack of interest in the Railway Cup just reminds me of the state of interpro rugby before professionalism. It's a powerful piece of evidence FOR the argument, rather than against it.

How much do you have to be paid for it to be professional? IC players are already getting paid.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2015, 11:52:26 AM
How much do you have to be paid for it to be professional? IC players are already getting paid.

Indeed. And we all know the wedge theory, the rule of upward-only revision, etc. I don't see payments to players ever going down anyway.

I was under the impression the grants have gotten smaller? Was there not some budget measure a few years ago?

Holy God! Maybe we are different after all!

Best case would be rugby league, now a fiefdom of Murdoch.

Nobody asks the players to train their arses off. If they think they deserve to be paid for it they are not thinking straight.   

Nobody except the supporters, county board and their manager :D

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 12:00:11 PM
Nobody except the supporters, county board and their manager :D

If they didn't like it would they do it?
What was it that fella who won an all Ireland said about getting  a new mickey?
Maybe that is the spur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGuc4E666F4

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2015, 12:58:26 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 12:00:11 PM
Nobody except the supporters, county board and their manager :D

If they didn't like it would they do it?
What was it that fella who won an all Ireland said about getting  a new mickey?
Maybe that is the spur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGuc4E666F4

Of course they like it, and it's worth it. They wouldn't be doing it otherwise. It's a privilege to play for your county. But they are still asked to put in a lot of work, it's not like me gardening. If I don't feel like going out and weeding the flowerbed some Wednesday evening, I'm not going to be dropped :)

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 01:51:57 PM

Quote from: seafoid on March 04, 2015, 12:58:26 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 04, 2015, 12:00:11 PM
Nobody except the supporters, county board and their manager :D

If they didn't like it would they do it?
What was it that fella who won an all Ireland said about getting  a new mickey?
Maybe that is the spur.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGuc4E666F4

Of course they like it, and it's worth it. They wouldn't be doing it otherwise. It's a privilege to play for your county. But they are still asked to put in a lot of work, it's not like me gardening. If I don't feel like going out and weeding the flowerbed some Wednesday evening, I'm not going to be dropped :)

But you don't get the glory doing the garden.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWtEzZlXCfI

Quote from: Hardy on March 04, 2015, 10:17:49 AM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2015, 09:49:09 AM
How does rugby support 4 professional teams? Is the international dimension (6-8 home games a year max) that much more lucrative than 3 sellout concerts and an American football match (in a larger stadium) that a minority sport can finance 4 full time professional competitive teams? Gaelic games could support 10 football teams easily. The only difficulty could be with the Ulster teams where the original GAA ethos of being community based and amateur is still strong. The general population in the rest of the country would have zero issue with players getting paid.

I would prefer if the GAA leadership would steer away from this course but they seem quite happy with the way it's going.

To say no-one in the GAA wants players to be paid is complete rubbish.

As I say I have no wish for this to happen and even less to draw out a strategy for achieving it. 20 odd years ago when the GAA allowed shirt sponsorship if Hardy and I suggested counties would be getting million euro deals in time to come you'd have locked us up too! This will happen and it will make the GAA better for the 98% of us not involved with the intercounty game.

I agree with all that, Seanie, except that it would improve the GAA for the rest of us. I contend that it would ruin it and that's based solely on the evidence of every other sport where it's happened. The elite level devours all resources. That means less money for coaching, hurleys for kids, decent facilities for clubs, etc. Look at club rugby here. Clubs are reduced to flogging their international tickets to survive.

I take your point but I'd hope that without the impediment of intercounty fixtures holding things up you'd be able to organise your season better and run things in a more attractive fashion. You could build up the community spirit that has been eroded and worn away over time by the nose wagging the dog and the outright hypocrisy that's all pervasive in the modern GAA. It could go pear shaped as you say but if a sensible approach is taken to it there's no reason why it should.

The Laois under 21 thread is a great example of why the link to place makes the GAA what it is. It is not always about winning.
Turning to pro franchises would destroy the essence of the games. If the Limerick franchise went bust maybe Athlone would buy it. Look at US sport. Pure shite for the sake of money.

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
The Laois under 21 thread is a great example of why the link to place makes the GAA what it is. It is not always about winning.
Turning to pro franchises would destroy the essence of the games. If the Limerick franchise went bust maybe Athlone would buy it. Look at US sport. Pure shite for the sake of money.

US Sport is brilliant!

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 05, 2015, 10:05:54 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
The Laois under 21 thread is a great example of why the link to place makes the GAA what it is. It is not always about winning.
Turning to pro franchises would destroy the essence of the games. If the Limerick franchise went bust maybe Athlone would buy it. Look at US sport. Pure shite for the sake of money.

US Sport is brilliant!

But franchises owe no loyalty to supporters when the business model fails.
Imagine Syf if Ros won the All Ireland. Money could not buy that.
Liverpool is different.  8) Not enough money.

Quote from: seafoid link=topic=21864.msg1445572#msg1445572 date=142
/quote]But franchises owe no loyalty to supporters when the business model fails.
Imagine Syf if Ros won the All Ireland. Money could not buy that.
.

Don't Matter would say money has bought the last few AIs. ;D

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 10:47:01 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 05, 2015, 10:05:54 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
The Laois under 21 thread is a great example of why the link to place makes the GAA what it is. It is not always about winning.
Turning to pro franchises would destroy the essence of the games. If the Limerick franchise went bust maybe Athlone would buy it. Look at US sport. Pure shite for the sake of money.

US Sport is brilliant!

But franchises owe no loyalty to supporters when the business model fails.
Imagine Syf if Ros won the All Ireland. Money could not buy that.
Liverpool is different.  8) Not enough money.

True. But that doesn't mean the sport is shite. It just means they are not tethered to their locality like the GAA is. Bit of a non-sequitor. Although College Sports are more in line with our understanding of being bound to a place and a tradition.

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 05, 2015, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 10:47:01 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 05, 2015, 10:05:54 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
The Laois under 21 thread is a great example of why the link to place makes the GAA what it is. It is not always about winning.
Turning to pro franchises would destroy the essence of the games. If the Limerick franchise went bust maybe Athlone would buy it. Look at US sport. Pure shite for the sake of money.

US Sport is brilliant!

But franchises owe no loyalty to supporters when the business model fails.
Imagine Syf if Ros won the All Ireland. Money could not buy that.
Liverpool is different.  8) Not enough money.

True. But that doesn't mean the sport is shite. It just means they are not tethered to their locality like the GAA is. Bit of a non-sequitor. Although College Sports are more in line with our understanding of being bound to a place and a tradition.

Agreed. For example we are all aware of the deep ties between Ballinasloe and Liverpool. The Americans have nothing to compare with that deep , emotional commitment to ones "local" team.

Sorry I was expecting to see something about Liam Oneill when I visited this thread.  I must be losing it......

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 04, 2015, 11:52:26 AM
How much do you have to be paid for it to be professional? IC players are already getting paid.

are the ulster boys getting these irish govn grants.  Surely they are for 26 county  footballers only..

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 05, 2015, 11:02:24 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 10:47:01 AM

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 05, 2015, 10:05:54 AM

Quote from: seafoid on March 05, 2015, 09:43:06 AM
The Laois under 21 thread is a great example of why the link to place makes the GAA what it is. It is not always about winning.
Turning to pro franchises would destroy the essence of the games. If the Limerick franchise went bust maybe Athlone would buy it. Look at US sport. Pure shite for the sake of money.

US Sport is brilliant!

But franchises owe no loyalty to supporters when the business model fails.
Imagine Syf if Ros won the All Ireland. Money could not buy that.
Liverpool is different.  8) Not enough money.

True. But that doesn't mean the sport is shite. It just means they are not tethered to their locality like the GAA is. Bit of a non-sequitor. Although College Sports are more in line with our understanding of being bound to a place and a tradition.

I didn't say the sport was shite. The commercial imperative breaks the link to the local place. The sport can still be wonderful but something is lost. And in the case of the GAA that would be too much to lose.

There is a different issue with sport driven by money - monopoly capitalism. Money flows to the top. So Real/Barca/Bayern/Chelsea- whatever combination will be a super match but it would be nice to see a team from Benelux or Eastern Europe making the final every 15 years or so. 

You said "Look at US Sport. Pure Shite for the sake of money".

Quote from: AZOffaly on March 06, 2015, 09:18:04 AM
You said "Look at US Sport. Pure Shite for the sake of money".

Sorry if the context wasn't clear. It was about the possibility of upending teams from one city and planting them elsewhere for the sake of higher revenue. That has happened a few American football teams. It might happen soccer over the next 20 years as well.

Even the investments of the plutocrats are driven by such considerations. Chelsea are in London and City are in Manchester.
Maybe Liverpool the city is too poor.....