Longford GAA referees have voted to go on strike, bringing to a head a major problem facing the GAA as they attempt to bring referees expenses into line with the Revenue's guidelines.
Last Sunday, Wexford referees threatened to withdraw their services until they got an undertaking that current expenses rates would be retained.
The Revenue guidelines suggest referees get match expenses of €13.71 per match, and mileage of 50c per mile.
But in Wexford a referee has been getting €50 for a senior game and €30 for an underage game.
Joe O Brien, the co-ordinator of GAA referees in Longford, speaking on RTÉ's Morning Ireland, said: "Longford is a very small county and most of the referees are centrally based.
"The new regulations are that Longford would have to pay €13.71 subsistence, plus 50c a mile. Now in a case of a lot of referees they wouldn't even reach the €20 mark in Longford for it [refereeing a match].
"That would be half of what they were getting for the last couple of years."
In Longford, the referees' fees come from a central fund, which is financed by all clubs in the county.
O'Brien continued: "How can it be resolved? It can only be resolved by people sitting around a table and ironing out this.
"I was at a meeting in Leinster last Wednesday night and we had a representative from Croke Park down and she said 'This was effective from then', and everyone from last weekend had to carry out the function of the €13.71 plus mileage.
"I have a huge issue with that as it brings the integrity of the referee in question, and that is not a road I would like to see referees having to go down. I think they have high enough standing that they wouldn't go down that road anyway."
RTÉ's Gaelic games correspondent Brian Carthy feels the problem will become a national issue.
He said: "Certainly [it will become national], because two proposals were put to the floor in Longford last night. One was for the referees in Longford to continue refereeing for the moment, but not to take the new proposed payments. It was felt that if the referees took the new fee it would compromise future negotiations.
"That particular proposal got very little support and I imagine the same would apply across the country.
"Whereas the second proposal to withdraw all services immediately was passed by an overwhelming majority. And the point is Longford is a small county, travel expenses would be minimal, and some referees would be out of pocket because of the high cost of petrol.
"It's obviously coming from Revenue as they decide the tax implications. The GAA have had discussions with Revenue and the main proposals are that club referees will get €13.71, civil service rates, 50c a mile.
"Obviously Revenue are looking at all areas to ensure everyone is tax compliant. Yesterday referees in Wexford decided to withdraw their services because of the new match fee proposals. But following consultation with the county chairman it was decided to hold off for the moment, until they got clarification.
"But it would need to be clarified. I'm sure the chairman in any county, let alone in Wexford, they cannot decide that previous arrangements don't apply now, if there's a directive from Revenue through Croke Park.
"Then the other situations, if there's payments to managers. If they're regulated, clearly there's going to be tax implications there.
"Revenue is looking closely at GAA to ensure that everything is above board. No under the counter payments, particularly to managers and all of that."
This could be the tipping point lads. I'd say Merkel wet herself when she heard.
Who will strike next - the committee, the president?
referees should strike if their fees are tampered with
There is a simple resolution to this, a set fee of €40/£35 with mileage at €0.45/£0.35 per mile and each Provincial Council agrees a figure with tax authorities north and south on an annual settlement paid for by the GAA. Refereeing is an awful lonely job and the way things are going the love of the association is no longer attracting people. I also know that some clubs in Counties that levy a club for not providing a ref are paying ref's a subsidy. This would avoid the need for this.
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 01, 2012, 11:55:22 AM
There is a simple resolution to this, a set fee of €40/£35 with mileage at €0.45/£0.35 per mile and each Provincial Council agrees a figure with tax authorities north and south on an annual settlement paid for by the GAA. Refereeing is an awful lonely job and the way things are going the love of the association is no longer attracting people. I also know that some clubs in Counties that levy a club for not providing a ref are paying ref's a subsidy. This would avoid the need for this.
That would do me, I'd be happy with that. would be a good we earner if you were getting 3 games per week
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 01, 2012, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 01, 2012, 11:55:22 AM
There is a simple resolution to this, a set fee of €40/£35 with mileage at €0.45/£0.35 per mile and each Provincial Council agrees a figure with tax authorities north and south on an annual settlement paid for by the GAA. Refereeing is an awful lonely job and the way things are going the love of the association is no longer attracting people. I also know that some clubs in Counties that levy a club for not providing a ref are paying ref's a subsidy. This would avoid the need for this.
That would do me, I'd be happy with that. would be a good we earner if you were getting 3 games per week
On the other hand, anyone in any walk of life should be paying tax at the appropriate rate for any good earner they are lucky enough to have.
I'm not self employed, I have always had my tax sorted through work, how much tax would you pay for expenses? Again I'm not up to speed on this thing.
And yes you should be taxed on earnings
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 01, 2012, 01:04:53 PM
I'm not self employed, I have always had my tax sorted through work, how much tax would you pay for expenses? Again I'm not up to speed on this thing.
And yes you should be taxed on earnings
So you would drive, kit out, referee, take an ocean of abuse, shower and drive home for 15euro a match? FFS you'll be the same hoor who comes crying in the summer about shit refs and wonder aloud why don't sane-minded people engage in activity.
simple as this- if refs are going to lose out by paying half this money towards tax- a lot of them if not most of them will stop reffing.
where will we be then !
A lot of counties struggle to get refs as it is !
If the revenue are going to take a cut, then I would suspect and expect that refs will require the game fees to be increased to cover this.
eg the match fees will possibly go up to €65-70 or so euros per game so that the remuneration after tax would equate to €40.
this is most likely what we will HAVE to do !
The GAA and the clubs are going to be the ones to lose out here.
Maybe now is the time to lobby for the 'sports grant' tax break thing - so that our refs and managers can avail of some tax break...
Quote from: trileacman on March 01, 2012, 01:14:33 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 01, 2012, 01:04:53 PM
I'm not self employed, I have always had my tax sorted through work, how much tax would you pay for expenses? Again I'm not up to speed on this thing.
And yes you should be taxed on earnings
So you would drive, kit out, referee, take an ocean of abuse, shower and drive home for 15euro a match? FFS you'll be the same hoor who comes crying in the summer about shit refs and wonder aloud why don't sane-minded people engage in activity.
I'm currently doing just that, referee a match get abuse, head home read somewhere how shit i was (here ;D) and then if I'm lucky get £10 and no travel!!! for city games (I live outside the city) and £20 for All County games!!
I might not be bother now and become a manager of some Junior team and get paid £80 quid a session
How come there's not a peep from anybody about referees getting paid? Does the rule on amateurism not apply to them?
Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with paying officials, except that it's against the rules. But there seem to be glaring inconsistencies in interpretation, application and even commentary on this rule.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
How come there's not a peep from anybody about referees getting paid? Does the rule on amateurism not apply to them?
Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with paying officials, except that it's against the rules. But there seem to be glaring inconsistencies in interpretation, application and even commentary on this rule.
[/quote
you know the answer
sure no one would do it if they didnt get paid. We would be without refs and games wouldnt be played. While we would get players to take free intercounty slots, there would be no backup plan for refs.
At a time when we are putting more and more fixtures on than ever, we need refs and paying them is the only way to entice them into the role. Payment a necesary evil so we dont say a thing about it.
I believe Wexford pay refs €50 per game- though this may be incorrect!
Of course I know the answer. That's why I brought it up. We hear managers can't be paid because it's against the rules, but we have to pay refs or we wouldn't have any, even though that's against the rules too. It just points up both the stupidity of the rules and the hypocrisy of attitudes to them.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 02:35:39 PM
How come there's not a peep from anybody about referees getting paid? Does the rule on amateurism not apply to them?
Just to be clear, I don't have a problem with paying officials, except that it's against the rules. But there seem to be glaring inconsistencies in interpretation, application and even commentary on this rule.
Good point.
To make this fair we should make a rule that all payments outside the rules must be the same.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 02:55:47 PM
Of course I know the answer. That's why I brought it up. We hear managers can't be paid because it's against the rules, but we have to pay refs or we wouldn't have any, even though that's against the rules too. It just points up both the stupidity of the rules and the hypocrisy of attitudes to them.
not condoning it - but our nation is one that thrives on begrudgery and ignoring rules etc
cronyism, nepotsm and the nod and wink culture is prevalent from the politicians, commercial organisations, right down to amateur organisations
dont think you can fight it- not right but there is no alternative. thats what we have become!
the rules may have to be changed to accomodate the tax mans requirements - but as a result I see the refs game costs increasing so they dont lose out. The GAA or more so our clubs - will be the ones to lose out.
Refereeing is slightly different. The point I am making is that the GAA would agree a fee and expense level with the taxman. The GAA would pay the tax at the apropriate rate on the fee. Referee's are technically paid officials. when I reffed myself it wasn't for the money, when I did get paid it was months after I had driven all over the country and barely covered expenses. Ref's today are generally assessed on performance both by the GAA and the public and Media...Why would you do it for free.
Rule 11:
The Association is an Amateur Association. A player, team,
official or member shall not accept payment in cash or in
kind in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic Games.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 04:43:39 PM
Rule 11:
The Association is an Amateur Association. A player, team,
official or member shall not accept payment in cash or in
kind in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic Games.
Refs get paid? I honestly didn't know that. I knew they got expenses, petrol and meals, but they actually get a small wage?
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 01, 2012, 04:48:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 04:43:39 PM
Rule 11:
The Association is an Amateur Association. A player, team,
official or member shall not accept payment in cash or in
kind in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic Games.
Refs get paid? I honestly didn't know that. I knew they got expenses, petrol and meals, but they actually get a small wage?
Well that's what's stated on this thread - twenty to fifty quid PLUS expenses.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 05:00:14 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 01, 2012, 04:48:34 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2012, 04:43:39 PM
Rule 11:
The Association is an Amateur Association. A player, team,
official or member shall not accept payment in cash or in
kind in conjunction with the playing of Gaelic Games.
Refs get paid? I honestly didn't know that. I knew they got expenses, petrol and meals, but they actually get a small wage?
Well that's what's stated on this thread - twenty to fifty quid PLUS expenses.
In Ulster refs usually get either a meal allowance (£15) plus 35p a mile or a set fee to cover both regardless of distance. In Down it's £30 per game and no mileage. On some games they make money and on some they lose. Hardly a wage given the cost of diesel and the size of the county.
That's more like what I thought. Mileage plus meal allowance. In fairness I think that's okay. To me that's legitimate expense.
Another small point. The Revenue in the North allow 45p a mile as espenses. GAA pays .35p and all GAA people accept that. No problem.
In Donegal, refs get a €25 fee plus mileage. But most refs don't claim the full mileage they'd be entitled to. €30 or €40 would be the norm. Refs paid in cash before game starts.
If this new regime to be expenses only, and overseen by revenue, would the following work?
Pay referee legitimate expenses (civil service rates & subsistence) by cheque out of a central pot, and then write that off against a county's annual VAT & PAYE liability?
Any accountants know if that's workable? Surely something creative - and legal - can be done.
Donegal turnover topped €1 million in 2011. I don't have the breakdown, but there'd be a chunk of VAT and PAYE in there. Can refs expenses be offset against that?
Nationally, the GAA would be paying a serious lump of VAT and PAYE/PRSI.
Am I the only one that thinks there is a lot of fuss over nothing here?
If refs are getting subsistence and mileage at that rate, then they are being covered for their costs - which is at it should be. Anything over that is income, and they should be taxed on it. Leaving the whole amateurism issue aside temporarily, why would someone arguing for anyone being given the right to dodge tax on legitimately earned income? I didn't realise that the vast majority of refs in the GAA were doing it while motivated by profit, as seems to be the case according to some pundits on this issue.
Some counties pay more, but that's to cover the cost of umpires - and again, provided the ref brings umpires, no problem.
If it turns out that the enforcing of these quidelines leads to a lot of refs walking away, then maybe we do need to look at a different system. However a lot of this presumes that referees are only doing it for an income, which wouldn't be my experience.
With the amount of sh1t that refs have to listen to when refereeing matches, they'd need to be getting something. Why would anyone in their right mind listen to such abuse voluntarily? That goes for all levels, from underage to senior county matches, its a joke what they have to listen to.
Quote from: The Milky Bar Kid on March 02, 2012, 09:07:30 AM
With the amount of sh1t that refs have to listen to when refereeing matches, they'd need to be getting something. Why would anyone in their right mind listen to such abuse voluntarily? That goes for all levels, from underage to senior county matches, its a joke what they have to listen to.
Completely different issue though. GAA folk generally don't display sufficient respect for referees, but that's an argument for enforcing rules better and punishing those who abuse referees, not for paying the refs.
Quote from: Lone Shark on March 02, 2012, 09:19:49 AM
Quote from: The Milky Bar Kid on March 02, 2012, 09:07:30 AM
With the amount of sh1t that refs have to listen to when refereeing matches, they'd need to be getting something. Why would anyone in their right mind listen to such abuse voluntarily? That goes for all levels, from underage to senior county matches, its a joke what they have to listen to.
Completely different issue though. GAA folk generally don't display sufficient respect for referees, but that's an argument for enforcing rules better and punishing those who abuse referees, not for paying the refs.
I haven't been to a game yet in 25 years (either playing or watching) where a referee hasn't had to listen to people (players, officials, supporters, etc) giving off to and critisising/shouting at him/her. It will always be the case. In my opinion, it wouldn't be worth your while putting up with it unless you get paid. I would be fairly confident that many of the referees I know of would be of the same opinion. By the way, I am not a referee, although I probably did my fair share of crying at them when I was playing too!!! Although I've mellowed a bit over the years! You couldn't pay me to be a referee for all that you'd have to listen to.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on March 01, 2012, 12:31:44 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on March 01, 2012, 11:55:22 AM
There is a simple resolution to this, a set fee of €40/£35 with mileage at €0.45/£0.35 per mile and each Provincial Council agrees a figure with tax authorities north and south on an annual settlement paid for by the GAA. Refereeing is an awful lonely job and the way things are going the love of the association is no longer attracting people. I also know that some clubs in Counties that levy a club for not providing a ref are paying ref's a subsidy. This would avoid the need for this.
That would do me, I'd be happy with that. would be a good we earner if you were getting 3 games per week
From what I believe from a friend that is a referee in Longford is that the €40 they receive should stand. They do not seek any more than that. He says it covers his extra milage when he picks up his umpires - normally 2 when he is doing league games. he gets the same for championship and he is happy with that. He sometimes is at a loss but the balance works about €40. He says it is expenses and nothing else and would want it to be nothing else
The Irish Times - Tuesday, March 6, 2012
GAA allay fears of Revenue 'swoop'
In this section »
Keane gets his chance and grabs it
Monaghan likely to face DRA tomorrow night
SEÁN MORAN, GAA Correspondent
THE GAA is anxious to calm fears that the association is being targeted by the tax authorities.
In the wake of concerns expressed about tax compliance within the association and unrest amongst referees caused by threatened reductions in their match expenses, GAA finance director Tom Ryan said the discussions are part of an ongoing dialogue with the Revenue that has been in process for more than 12 months.
He also expressed himself unhappy with the publicity that suggested the association was under scrutiny for suspected non-compliance.
"Our ongoing dealings with the Revenue aren't about plugging loopholes and there's nothing untoward in terms of how we do our business; it's just a matter of housekeeping. It's not as dramatic as it might seem."
Whereas Ryan accepted the current economic crisis had meant that there had been more attention paid to the association he said it was "benign attention, not a revenue 'swoop'."
There have been criticisms of Croke Park that tax issues were communicated poorly to the units of the GAA, causing anxieties amongst members, such as referees, whose expenses payments were not in line with permissible rates.
"We've been trying to communicate fairly intensely since before Christmas. We've gone through a series of one-to-one meetings with each county – certainly more than 20 of the 26. I accept that some counties haven't been met yet, but the nature of something like this is that one county will be first on the list and another will be last.
"It didn't help us in that respect that the matter became public before we'd finished the briefings. We also met with the National Referees' Committee. It's hard to know what more could have done.
"We tried not to send out a missive, but to sit down face-to-face with people. Perhaps one of the things we should have reinforced – and the referees' controversy appears to have gained a momentum and significance beyond its real importance – is that the interaction with the Revenue about various counties tends to throw up queries on an ongoing basis."
That interaction arises from tax audits of counties, which can occur as a matter of course, but also from a desire to standardise tax arrangements within the association.
Ryan also rejects the charge that by agonising over the issue in public the GAA has more or less invited the Revenue to take a heightened interest in the association's affairs.
"When there is an issue to be resolved it's better for us to try and do that on a national level rather than deal with it on a piecemeal basis. That was the basis of the discussion with the Revenue – that we'd try and come up with a way that the GAA might conduct its tax affairs and that everyone on our side would be aware of what was expected of them."
The desire to centralise tax dealings originated in the fractured manner in which local tax districts would approach units of the GAA.
"The idea is that you wouldn't be dealing with a different tax inspector varying from region to region and district to district, who wouldn't be aware of what had been agreed at national level.
"We've a very good relationship with the Revenue and enjoy a favourable tax status on a number of fronts – not concessionary but there are exemptions from stamp duty and VAT on tickets – so it's important that we're compliant and aware of our responsibilities."
This engagement has enabled the GAA to communicate both ways with local units on the likely tax regime and Ryan was confident the situation governing referees would be resolved to everyone's satisfaction.
"We communicated indications from the Revenue to the counties and said that it was likely they would come into force this year.
"But it was part of an ongoing process. For instance, we received some good suggestions as to how the issue could be addressed and were able to bring that back to the Revenue.
"We could put the head down and wait for the Revenue to get on to us, but if you're aware of anything that isn't best practice the best thing to do is to try and arrive at an agreement.
"It's not just referees and, while I don't want to speak on behalf of them (the authorities), I don't believe they're 'targeting' anyone. I've no doubt that we'll arrive at an accommodation that will meet the needs of both parties."