in conjunction with a few high-profile twitter devotees.
Does this represent the harsh reality as far as you and the GAA members you know are concerned?
I think it's all a bit daft to be honest.
Typical silly season stuff.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/momentum-towards-professionalism-looks-irresistible-3031834.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/momentum-towards-professionalism-looks-irresistible-3031834.html)
I wouldn't blame the media on this issue, i'd blame the hypocracy in the GAA from top to bottom. The media cannot help but pick up on it. My club chairman was on a local radio station recently stating how no manager or coach should be paid... the same man recruited a manager for our club team about 10 years ago and paid him and his coach an annual fee for 3 years! The same man was on the county board for a while and was involved in appointing a fully paid management team for the county.
One line for the radio, another behind close doors. Fair play to the media for exposing it and the sooner its sorted and made transparent the better.
So let me get this straight, if the GAA legitimises payments to managers then it's a fait accompli that players will have to be paid?
And yet, managers have been paid for donkeys years, with the full knowledge of players, and they've never expressed any real problems with this.
The reason why I think the media are so important in this debate is they are actively seeking out opinions from players and asking them leading questions, the answers to which are then packaged together to fit the 'if they're getting paid, we better get paid' agenda.
There was a good discussion on this yesterday on Newstalk.
Anthony Moyles, who is a rock of sense in general, was very honest and forthright.
I got the impression from him that he just wanted to be looked after better when he was a player.
Not chasing county board secretarys for mileage or physio bills etc.
Put a central fund in place that makes sure all the player welfare needs are met and I think the professionalism agenda will die away.
Make the players feel like they are valued.
I don't see how any move towards professional inter-county managers could even be a realistic runner. Even outside of any damage to the amateur ethos of the GAA is it even financially viable in the current economic set-up with County Boards struggling to make ends meet as it is.
If managers were to go professional would the monies be ring-fenced and made available from GAA central funding? Even if such funding exists how would you even bench-mark an appropriate salary for an inter-county manager? Should all managers receive the same or should county boards decide themselves how much they want to pay?
If you leave it up to County Boards themselves to decide an appropriate salary, you risk creating additional issues. In a dual county, how would the hurling fraternity feel if they knew the hurling manager was being paid significantly less than the football manager? What kind of message would that send out about where priorities lie? Would dual counties be disadvantaged if they had to financially compete on two levels if other counties can concentrate on one code?
The current set-up, the brown envelope culture is hardly ideal but as messy as it is it seems to suit all parties. Such is the imperfect world of the GAA.
Quote from: ck on February 26, 2012, 12:14:22 PM
I wouldn't blame the media on this issue, i'd blame the hypocracy in the GAA from top to bottom. The media cannot help but pick up on it. My club chairman was on a local radio station recently stating how no manager or coach should be paid... the same man recruited a manager for our club team about 10 years ago and paid him and his coach an annual fee for 3 years! The same man was on the county board for a while and was involved in appointing a fully paid management team for the county.
One line for the radio, another behind close doors. Fair play to the media for exposing it and the sooner its sorted and made transparent the better.
Although I agree with you regarding the hypocracy with our association, how can you dismiss the argument that this is not being driven by the media. I know last night in my club this issue was not being discussed and im sure it wasnt on the tongues of our members up and down the land. The Irish sporting media have feck all to write about at the minute and its dead easy to manipulate any tom dick or harry players that has an us and them opinion on the matter.
With the country on its knees financially how could we even contemplate turning our most popular sporting pastime professional, imho it would be kill the association.
Definitely silly season shite. Only the Indo could interpret a mandate from county boards to enforce strictly the rules on amateur status as evidence that the "momentum towards professionalism looks irresistible".
What proportion of club and county managers are being remunerated outside of the standard expenses regime?
Would we say it's a majority or a minority?
Quote from: Jinxy on February 26, 2012, 02:02:44 PM
What proportion of club and county managers are being remunerated outside of the standard expenses regime?
Would we say it's a majority or a minority?
I would say a majority. It has steadily increased here in Sligo at club level but the last 2 years has seen a levelling off. Personally I don't think the GAA could sustain the costs of paying managers.
64 inter-county teams. I'd like to see where they'll find the money for that. Sure why stop at inter-county? Crossmaglen would beat at least half the inter-county teams out there. And then what about the women? They put in just as much effort. People would want to think this through for more than five seconds.
Legitimising payment for managers = payment for players = the end of the GAA as we know it. It really is that simple.
I would have to agree with that Sidney but the reality is we are already on that road... Most people out there probably would say that managers deserve payment but whether they should is a different argument.
Many clubs are paying coaches already behind closed doors and will continue to do so, most of the college managers would be getting a fee too. I even know of a school team manager who lifts a few quid. It's rife already it's just that it's all behind closed doors, hush hush.. the same people calling for managers not to be paid are paying their own managers. Hypocracy of the highest order.
The same process began in Rugby untill Rugby legitimised everything. The GAA needs to make a hard call here or continue to bury their heads in the sand. I personally believe the only way forward is to place a cap on managers expenses. Anything over and above that should lead to suspension, which must be ruthlessly upheld by the GAA. Just my thoughts.
Quote from: ck on February 27, 2012, 11:05:22 AM
Most people out there probably would say that managers deserve payment but whether they should is a different argument.
This is a key point. You don't deserve payment for managing a GAA team at any level. You do it for free as a hobby -that's the whole ethos of the GAA. Every county and club should find the best man they can who'll do it for nothing. That's the rule we should get back to enforcing.
I'm sure some might say that would set us back years, but I don't really buy that. Gilroy doesnt get paid by Dublin. Kerry and Cork don't pay their managers. Does Mickey Harte get paid? You ensure they are not out of pocket and are well looked after when on duty with meals, facilities, etc.
I wonder how many clubs/counties could look back at wedge they handed over to a manager and think that would have been better spent on a longer term development project rather than it being wasted on short-termism. A high percentage I think.
The media want professionalism so they can start writing lurid stories about the private lives of gAA players.
http://www.derryjournal.com/sport/gaelic-games/brolly_s_bites_who_is_the_gobshite_1_3557614
Interesting piece from Joe Brolly on the media's pursuit of professionalism.
Not his greatest fan but spot on here i think.
Quote from: Hound on February 27, 2012, 11:26:44 AM
Quote from: ck on February 27, 2012, 11:05:22 AM
Most people out there probably would say that managers deserve payment but whether they should is a different argument.
This is a key point. You don't deserve payment for managing a GAA team at any level. You do it for free as a hobby -that's the whole ethos of the GAA. Every county and club should find the best man they can who'll do it for nothing. That's the rule we should get back to enforcing.
I'm sure some might say that would set us back years, but I don't really buy that. Gilroy doesnt get paid by Dublin. Kerry and Cork don't pay their managers. Does Mickey Harte get paid? You ensure they are not out of pocket and are well looked after when on duty with meals, facilities, etc.
I wonder how many clubs/counties could look back at wedge they handed over to a manager and think that would have been better spent on a longer term development project rather than it being wasted on short-termism. A high percentage I think.
I seem to remember Jack O'Connor talking about taking time off from the school before and the county board reimbursing him for wages lost, does that count as payment?
Great article from Brolly by the way.
Why are ye happy to pay the county boards Secretary, pay the school coaches, pay the county groundsman, never mind the president, I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift, so whats the problem with paying the county manager? There is no logical argument to defend the difference in this roles. Infact my logic would be if the president can take a three sabbatical from his career and his salary paid for him by the GAA, why can't the manager, anyone care to logical explain why this couldn't, shouldn't happen?
Great piece all right from Brolly. However, the criticism of the hypocrisy of the GAA regarding the wink and nod brown envelope culture is perfectly valid. If amateurism is going to be the official policy when it comes to managers, then it should be enforced.
Quote from: shawshank on February 27, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
Why are ye happy to pay the county boards Secretary, pay the school coaches, pay the county groundsman, never mind the president, I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift, so whats the problem with paying the county manager? There is no logical argument to defend the difference in this roles. Infact my logic would be if the president can take a three sabbatical from his career and his salary paid for him by the GAA, why can't the manager, anyone care to logical explain why this couldn't, shouldn't happen?
Yes, there is. They are paid for their jobs. You need specialist skills to be a schools coach or a groundsman. I'll give you the President, the only 'skill' they require is being able to be elected, but otherwise the GAA should pay people for work and not pay those who are doing it for play, which includes team managers of all stripes.
I'll turn your logic right around on you. Who in the GAA should not get paid? I remember talking to a rugby lad about how his club would raffle their Six Nations tickets every year - and by 'raffle', I mean 'flog it to some corporate shyster for fifty times its face value'. "No one will do anything for free these days" was his rationale. Beware Pandora's box.
Where is the money supposed to come from? Mortgage arrears ?
Everybody should ask themselves the following questions:
Is the "momentum towards professionalism" in the GAA "irresistible" as Conlon says? If so, why?
Who is pushing that point of view? Is it mainly GAA members themselves or is it mainly a media thing?
Do you think payments to managers should be legitimised? If so, why?
If managers were to be legitimately paid, how much payment should be legitimised? Should it be on a supply and demand "free market" basis where a manager can name his price or should it be only a fixed amount with a specified maximum limit?
Would under the counter payments still continue anyway if a specified limit wasn't considered enough by a manager?
If managers were paid, should players be paid? Would players look to be paid if managers are paid?
If players were paid, where would the money come from? Should players be paid more than managers?
Which teams would get paid? Would it be just senior inter-county? Would it be only some senior inter-county teams? Would the Leitrim hurlers get paid? Would the top club teams get paid? What about Women's GAA?
If payments to managers were legitimised, would anybody want to manage a team without looking for payment?
If players were paid, would they be able to move between counties? Would rules against this be seen as restraint of trade under the law?
Should players be allowed to move between counties anyway like Seanie Johnston is trying to do?
If players were paid would it have an effect on the county system, and if so, what effect?
Quote from: Sidney on February 27, 2012, 02:03:27 PM
Everybody should ask themselves the following questions:
Is the "momentum towards professionalism" in the GAA "irresistible" as Conlon says? If so, why?
Who is pushing that point of view? Is it mainly GAA members themselves or is it mainly a media thing?
Once Croke Park was opened to soccer and rugby, I predicted that the media (especially the Indo) would need a new hobby horse to flog and that campaigning to get players paid would be it.
Five or six years ago when money (debt) was sloshing around the place, a crusade like this might have gained more momentum. However, the country is stone broke at the moment and most counties are struggling to balance the books.
It is as much a non-runner now as anytime in the last couple of decades.
Quote from: behind the wire on February 27, 2012, 12:01:56 PM
http://www.derryjournal.com/sport/gaelic-games/brolly_s_bites_who_is_the_gobshite_1_3557614
Interesting piece from Joe Brolly on the media's pursuit of professionalism.
Not his greatest fan but spot on here i think.
[/quot
Love the way the article finishes
"Who exactly is the Gobshite?
Joe Brolly wrties in the Journal every Friday"
But in all seriousness, I have to agree 100% with what Brolly is saying. Nobody is forcing people to play or manage a team, if they don't want to put in the commitment for free, then they should just walk away. There will alway be someone else willing to step in.
That's precisely the problem, there isn't always someone to step in. On top of that most players are demanding a level of coaching that is beyond what many are capable of, so you end up with a fairly small group of people willing and able to do the job.
Maybe the GAA could strike back by starting a campaign to insist that all newspapers are run profitably.
Players say the demands now are unsustainable.
Lets say for the sake of argument that we accept that they are unsustainable.
Why is professionalism deemed to be the only solution to this problem?
What's stopping us reducing the demands?
Some people will say that this is regressive, but is it really so regressive if the alternative is to sunder the association?
Limit the number of training sessions per week and have this independently monitored and verified.
Any breach of this should be subject to financial sanctions.
A level playing field for all, plus the county boards would be delighted to have their expenses reduced.
What would be the problem with this?
I would be quite happy for players fitness levels to drop back to a level whereby it is not possible for them to cover every single blade of grass in Croke Park.
It would be better for the game as well.
What exactly is stopping us doing this?
The real world for one thing. How can you limit training and how (realistically) monitor this? Or what's to prevent players being given extra training that they now have to do unmonitored? Competitive sport isn't about level playing fields, it's about the exact opposite with everybody trying to get an edge. If we try to stifle teams preparation then we may as well retreat into the shadows and let soccer and rugby take centre stage.
Get the GPA and the players on board.
Present them with a choice.
a) We continue on with the status quo, where you feel too much is being demanded of you
or
b) We try to implement a system whereby collective training sessions and separate conditioning work are monitored either in terms of the number of hours per week spent training. The Scientific and Medical Welfare committee in Croke Park will put an upper limit on this.
How do you monitor the latter option?
You simply stop paying for it.
If the players say we'll go with option b) and yet choose to break the agreement that's on their own heads and at their own expense.
This is easier with collective training where meals, expensed travel etc. are provided.
It gets trickier when it comes down to conditioning work on their own time.
You can't stop a guy going to the gym but surely you can stop someone telling him he has to go to the gym.
If they feel they are being put under pressure to do so they can take it up with the GPA.
The reality is Zulu, even if you can't enforce option b) properly, by choosing that option the players have taken away the 'too much is being demanded of us' argument.
Maybe they are demanding too much of themselves?
Some sort of choice has to be presented to the players so we know exactly what it is that they want.
To train like lunatics and be paid for it, or to row back on the demands a bit so they don't feel they are constantly under pressure.
Even if they say, 'No, we want to keep training at the level we currently are' that gives you a starting point.
A meaningful discussion has to take place where this can all be thrashed out.
Within the association.
And it needs to take place soon because the media are going to keep filling in the blanks themselves.
But I don't think you're tackling the problem there. The problem isn't IC football but the fact that the best players are being asked to play club, university and county level (possibly in both codes). This means that lads are not able to put in the proper foundations for the demands of the games nor do they get the proper rest or recovery as they are straight into club action once the county is out. Professionalism or payment to managers isn't even a minor issue in the GAA compared to our idiotic season and the fact that the better the player you are the more teams we load on you while the majority of the players sit around doing nothing. But we see from the Railway cup thread that GAA folk don't want to make hard choices, they prefer to look at everything in isolation. The GAA is a ship without a captain and nobody has a clue where we actually want to go.
Quote from: Zulu on February 27, 2012, 08:12:37 PM
Professionalism or payment to managers isn't even a minor issue in the GAA compared to our idiotic season and the fact that the better the player you are the more teams we load on you while the majority of the players sit around doing nothing.
The biggest problem the GAA faces. +1
Anyone who thinks intercounty players get fit at county training is living in the dark ages. Players must be fit to go to training not training to get fit. Fair enough they might do the odd collective fitness session but id say its more for a top up or monitoring than anything else. Limiting the number of county training sessions will not make one blind bit of difference to the fitness levels of teams.
Quote from: shawshank on February 27, 2012, 12:43:33 PM
Why are ye happy to pay the county boards Secretary, pay the school coaches, pay the county groundsman, never mind the president, I could go on, but I'm sure you get my drift, so whats the problem with paying the county manager? There is no logical argument to defend the difference in this roles. Infact my logic would be if the president can take a three sabbatical from his career and his salary paid for him by the GAA, why can't the manager, anyone care to logical explain why this couldn't, shouldn't happen?
I have no problem with the payment to full-time coaches; properly qualified and utilised, the future of the games needs this.
The idea of a paid county secretary is barmy especially when most counties have an army of paid office administrators anyway. In most counties the paid secretary is a lifelong GAA insider with little or no commercial ability, trying to wear too many hats, when what the county requires is an executive officer with commercial experience and who is employed by the county and answerable to the county executive; what we have is the tail wagging the dog.
On then to the question of paid managers. What should be done is that each county, depending on factors such as its size of membership, level of competition, travelling distances, etc. is given a budget for county team management (to include all personnel including manager, selectors, physios, drivers, water carriers, etc.) within which they must operate, with increments to reflect seasonal progress (e,g, increases to reflect the extra championship games as a team progresses).
County officers to sign off on this and a proper annual audit conducted to ensure compliance, expuslion from competition for breaches. This will force county boards to exercise a high level of care and scrutiny when making appointments, and proper monitoring and help cut out the brown envelope culture and the semi-pro merry-go-round that we currently have. It might also get us back to something of a level playing field. (While we are at it we might put a cap on the runaway train that is county training regimes).
Comparisons with rugby are not valid as it has a true international dimension both at national and club level that creates a cash cow for IRFU & the 4 provincial pro clubs (whose player contracts are all owned by IRFU!!) every year.
Comparisons with Irish League soccer or League of Ireland might be more valid - the unsutainable and poorly regulated nature of their professional set-up has been demonstrated on a continuing basis with clubs folding or on the brink of liquidation every year - Cork City, Drogheda Utd., Shelbourne, Derry City, Glentoran, Newry City, etc. etc.
The country cannot support an internal professioanl sport in any code. If we don't openly grasp this nettle now and put in a realistic fix we will damge the unique ethos of the GAA beyond recovery.
Food for thought from a reasonably comparible sport in another country!!
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/27-comment-a-analysis/236-a-lesson-from-otago-why-the-gaa-must-never-go-professional (http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/27-comment-a-analysis/236-a-lesson-from-otago-why-the-gaa-must-never-go-professional)
Thats the great piece that sums up the basic points which alot of people don't seem to see - to them they only see the full houses in Croke Park and forget about the rest.
It would never be able to sustain itself.
Quote from: Premier Emperor on February 27, 2012, 11:39:06 AM
The media want professionalism so they can start writing lurid stories about the private lives of gAA players.
You mightn't be a million miles off the mark.
The article hits the nail on the head, but obviously rare outbursts of common sense like that won't stop elements of the media here from slyly trying to stir the pot.
Quote from: johnneycool on March 08, 2012, 03:28:24 PM
Food for thought from a reasonably comparible sport in another country!!
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/27-comment-a-analysis/236-a-lesson-from-otago-why-the-gaa-must-never-go-professional (http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/27-comment-a-analysis/236-a-lesson-from-otago-why-the-gaa-must-never-go-professional)
Fantastic article. Time we all took a few deep breaths when it comes to talk about full time semi professionalism or even full time professionalism.
Another cautionary tale for the GAA perhaps?
http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/24m-debt-crisis-irfu-report-reveals-clubs-are-now-fighting-for-their-survival-3066584.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/rugby/24m-debt-crisis-irfu-report-reveals-clubs-are-now-fighting-for-their-survival-3066584.html)
While some continued to chase success by paying their best players, the report reveals that the lack of loyalty at the top of the club game has resulted in ordinary members being turned off.
One Ulster club saw the number of adult teams they were able to field fall from seven to four in three years after they commenced paying players.
Another senior club told the union: "We had aspirations of being a senior club and the strategy was to pay players for the first few years to get there; the problem was, once we reached our goal, the rot had set in."
Quote from: johnneycool on March 08, 2012, 03:28:24 PM
Food for thought from a reasonably comparible sport in another country!!
http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/27-comment-a-analysis/236-a-lesson-from-otago-why-the-gaa-must-never-go-professional (http://www.irishpost.co.uk/index.php/component/content/article/27-comment-a-analysis/236-a-lesson-from-otago-why-the-gaa-must-never-go-professional)
Good piece - and the Larries get a mention.
Interesting to note also that clubs can't cope with the amount of kids wanting to play. Is there a lesson for us there?
Quote from: Zulu on March 30, 2012, 02:05:32 PM
Interesting to note also that clubs can't cope with the amount of kids wanting to play. Is there a lesson for us there?
I know of a lot of GAA clubs who cannot cater for the number of children coming in the gate due to lack of suitable coaches for underage teams and people not willing to volunteer
yet the same clubs are perfectly prepared to pay big expenses to managers of senior teams etc
money needs to be invested in the underage firstly.
pay for people from the club to attend coaching courses
pay good quality coaches to attend the club occasionally and demonstrate new ideas and ways of coaching for all underage coaches
ensure coaches have all the equipment needed.
have a reward for the volunteer coaches - a night out, meal, club top or whatever.
Agree entirely. We have it assways as investment in underage will pay for itself in time. I'm helping to set up an underage team in Britain and I'm more than a bit concerned that the great work done so far may not bear as much fruit as it should through lack of volunteers.
Quote from: Zulu on March 30, 2012, 02:05:32 PM
Interesting to note also that clubs can't cope with the amount of kids wanting to play. Is there a lesson for us there?
There are two ways of looking at that Zulu.
If I live in a small house and 6 cousins come to visit I've no place to put them all.
If I live in a big house and 6 cousins come to visit they all get a nice comfy bed of their own.
The lesson here is, it's good to live in a big house.
Again, I agree entirely. What concerns me though is that we (the GAA) have become too comfortable and some people may still think kids will naturally choose the GAA over alternative sports. Rugby has grown from a very small base to a genuine competitor for young players and I see and read things that seem to me to be entirely at odds with promoting our gamnes. I'm not suggesting we panic or anything like that but I would like to a bit more urgency and imaginative thinking on games development and promotion (both underage and adult level). Outside of Ulster I see little evidence of that, now maybe it's going on but if it is we should be shouting it from the rooftops.