Let me get this straight. The markets are panicking because of the prospect of the people of Greece having a democratic vote on the terms of their bailout. Merkel, Sarkozy and the troika are wagging their fingers disapprovingly at Papandreou for such a move.
Is it just me or is there something inherently wrong here? Who gets to call the shots? The people or the investors? Shouldn't the people be supreme? And in the birthplace of democracy of all places!
I mean, am I missing something?
It is a dumb hugely irresponsible power play, nothing else.
Whatever deal is finally agreed with Greece will be applied to Ireland.
The Irish budget deficit is still €20 bn
Basically the Irish government and people brought Ireland to the position that it is in - corrupt officials, employees, tax dodging and not paying its way on a grand scale. They would prefer to bury their heads in the sand and continue to run at a deficit as long as it doesn't affect them personally.
Greece are seemingly unwilling to take any medicine in regards the state of their finances. You can argue their right to refuse to be controlled by the IMF but they now hold the future of Europe in their hands.
Do they take a hit for the good of the rest of Europe and perhaps the wider world or do they hold out for their own sake? To be honest they probably lose and will suffer hardship either way.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/economics/8578337/The-countries-most-exposed-to-Greek-debt.html
If we all club together with a couple of Euro, we could buy Greece.
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2011, 09:49:19 AM
Whatever deal is finally agreed with Greece will be applied to Ireland.
The Irish budget deficit is still €20 bn
Basically the Irish government and people brought Ireland to the position that it is in - corrupt officials, employees, tax dodging and not paying its way on a grand scale. They would prefer to bury their heads in the sand and continue to run at a deficit as long as it doesn't affect them personally.
Seafoid, I think that the Irish cannot be compared to the Greeks, as we have had to swallow manys a bitter pill in the recent past, and belts have had to be tightened across the country (granted the
wankers sorry bankers seem to be immune from penalties/suffering).
Ireland is at least trying to get itself of its knees, the Greeks seem to want their cake and eat it with lashings of cream.
Quote from: Orior on November 02, 2011, 10:02:33 AM
If we all club together with a couple of Euro, we could buy Greece.
I know but the upkeep would be a bit*h.
QuoteIreland is at least trying to get itself of its knees, the Greeks seem to want their cake and eat it with lashings of cream.
Have you seen what the ordinary Greek workers have had to endure this year? The only Greeks who want their cake with cream are the lads who caused it in the first place - a bit like here.
€228 billion salted away to Switzerland in the last 12 months by those in the know!
One of the biggest problems in Greece is the non-compliance of tax payment in the "self employed /professional classes" - less than 20% pay it!!
The Greeks are notorious for avoiding their tax burden. Basically the people and Government borrowed money and spent beyond their means, they need to suck up the medicine in the way Ireland has. If not then bankrupt them. You try borrowing money from AIB and then default, and you will be bankrupt, why not Greece? This is political expendiency that even Bertie wouldn't have tried.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8863728/Greek-military-leadership-changes-spark-opposition-outcry.html][url]http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/8863728/Greek-military-leadership-changes-spark-opposition-outcry.html (http://[url)[/url]
Another twist in the Greek tale!
This being Greece, the spectre of a military coup is always lurking and strangely the media have hardly mentioned it. Even these military purges have attracted very little comment.
What would happen if the army took over? Would the European Rapid Reaction Force move in to protect the EU's economic interests? That would be an evocative event for the Greeks, many of whom see the bail out as just a case of Germany finally paying for what it did to Greece in WW2.
War in Europe over the policies of the EU, whose primary raison d'etre was to ensure European nations would never fight each other again?
QuoteWar in Europe over the policies of the EU, whose primary raison d'etre was to ensure European nations would never fight each other again
Yep the ultimate irony.
The reason no one is mentioning the purge in the media is that it ultimately means that the discussion could go down the road above and no one wants to countenance that
Pardon my ignorance but what is the troika (sic?)
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 02, 2011, 10:20:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2011, 09:49:19 AM
Whatever deal is finally agreed with Greece will be applied to Ireland.
The Irish budget deficit is still €20 bn
Basically the Irish government and people brought Ireland to the position that it is in - corrupt officials, employees, tax dodging and not paying its way on a grand scale. They would prefer to bury their heads in the sand and continue to run at a deficit as long as it doesn't affect them personally.
Seafoid, I think that the Irish cannot be compared to the Greeks, as we have had to swallow manys a bitter pill in the recent past, and belts have had to be tightened across the country (granted the w**kers sorry bankers seem to be immune from penalties/suffering).
Ireland is at least trying to get itself of its knees, the Greeks seem to want their cake and eat it with lashings of cream.
I know GDA but it won't make any difference. Austerity isn't working. Cutting Government spending contracts the economy and makes it impossible to reduce the deficit to sustainable levels. There is no level of sacrifice that will cut the mustard. Ireland is going to get the same treatment as Greece IMO.
Quote from: omagh_gael on November 02, 2011, 02:03:47 PM
Pardon my ignorance but what is the troika (sic?)
The troika is the IMF, The European Central Bank and the European Union.
They are supposed to be like Mr Wolf in Pulp Fiction but instead they f*ck everything up.
Mostly because the other 2 won't listen to the IMF.
Cheers. I think enda should hire Mr Wolf to sort out our mess. Now that would be cool.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on November 02, 2011, 05:09:23 AM
Let me get this straight. The markets are panicking because of the prospect of the people of Greece having a democratic vote on the terms of their bailout. Merkel, Sarkozy and the troika are wagging their fingers disapprovingly at Papandreou for such a move.
Is it just me or is there something inherently wrong here? Who gets to call the shots? The people or the investors? Shouldn't the people be supreme? And in the birthplace of democracy of all places!
I mean, am I missing something?
The people got their say, they elected a government. That government negotiated a deal and then chickened out afterwards.
This show is coming to Ireland soon
31 October 2011
Neue Zürcher Zeitung
Athens ⋅ The decision to apply a 50% haircut to Greece's sovereign debt has generated much fear and mistrust amongst many Greeks..The state of the economy increases the uncertainty. Apart from banks, other losers following the resolutions of the Brussels summit are importers, pension funds and insurance companies The first opinion poll on the debt haircut question shows that 55% of the Greeks judge the decision negatively.
Only 16.9% expect the debt haircut to overcome the crisis, the majority of respondents feel resignation (21%), anxiety (20%) and anger (19%). In addition, 48.8% of Greeks oppose the decision of the Summit, "for the duration of the program to build surveillance capacity on site," as a restriction on the sovereignty. Nonetheless 72% of Greeks wish to keep the Euro.
In the Greek economy uncertainty is mounting because of the possible consequences of the debt restructure. For the recapitalization of the banks alone € 30 billion are needed. For assistance under the program, a support fund has been established, the use of its resources but would lead to nationalization of the affected institutions. Some banks now want to try to raise the necessary capital on their own.
The insurance companies, which hold almost € 4.5 billion in Greek bonds, will be hit hard by the restructure. Unlike the banks, there is no safety net for them, even though the industry had requested this months ago. The losses of the insurance companies could add up to € 2.2 billion. Experts in the market estimate that some companies will be unable to avoid bankruptcy. In contrast, the losses of the pension funds (12 billion €) are absorbed by the increase in government subsidies (€ 1 billion per year). This will lessen the impact although the manouvreability of the Government post haircut will be reduced budget considerably.
Dealers and traders fear that the high recapitalization loans are still expensive and that the lack of liquidity will have a negative impact on economic development. Importing companies have already begun to feel the impact of the debt restructure. According to the local Business Association, for some days Greek importers have been required to pay for deliveries in advance in cash. Guarantees that are issued by banks in Greece will not be accepted.
It strikes me as a lack of leadership not seen since John Terry biffed his team mates bird!!
The Greek Prime Minister was elected to make the big calls why in God's name is he firing this one back to the people. How much money does it cost to have a referendum, how long to get it organised and counted. . . this is Government failure at its worst and a coup d'etat should happen so that someone can take the bull by the horns and make a decision for all our sakes.
I can't find the thread about whether or not there would be a war. I remember being of the opinion that it was quite possible but I couldn't see where the division or the specific issues would be.
Now there appear to be a few fronts forming. And like Thatcher there are a couple of big egos who are currently very weak politically who might benefit from a glorious campaign to put manners on the treacherous lazy foreigners.
If the PIIGS start unilaterally defaulting I can see northern Europe deciding to use force to get their money back. The Brits would be the joker in that pack, as usual, but seeing as we owe them a fortune I couldn't see them ending up on the same side as us.
No wonder Mary Lou is demanding we burn bondholders. Sinn Féin will soon be the biggest Irish party in Deutch Frangland.
Quote from: muppet on November 02, 2011, 04:36:27 PM
I can't find the thread about whether or not there would be a war. I remember being of the opinion that it was quite possible but I couldn't see where the division or the specific issues would be.
Now there appear to be a few fronts forming. And like Thatcher there are a couple of big egos who are currently very weak politically who might benefit from a glorious campaign to put manners on the treacherous lazy foreigners.
If the PIIGS start unilaterally defaulting I can see northern Europe deciding to use force to get their money back. The Brits would be the joker in that pack, as usual, but seeing as we owe them a fortune I couldn't see them ending up on the same side as us.
No wonder Mary Lou is demanding we burn bondholders. Sinn Féin will soon be the biggest Irish party in Deutch Frangland.
It looks like Israel is going to attack Iran
http://news.sky.com/home/world-news/article/16101552
QuoteIt looks like Israel is going to attack Iran
The old pre-emptive strike eh. Just what the world needs now to distract us from financial armegeddon is the possibility of a nuclear one!!
They might want to re think that attack, I reckon Iran would beat them, until the yanks came in on the Israeli side.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 02, 2011, 05:37:21 PM
They might want to re think that attack, I reckon Iran would beat them, until the yanks came in on the Israeli side.
The Yanks are in a spot of bother with the Taliban.
Greece is a basket case. It has gorged itself on EU funds for years and squandered billions in the run up to and after the 2004 Olympics. A mate worked in Athens for a few years and he said it was truly nuts. Apparently the EU built them a tube system for a few billion which punters don't pay to use and where all the workers around on about €50k a year, no-one pays tax, a few hours work a day is normal, hundreds of thousands are allowed to retire at 50 on a pension which is 95% of their salary etc etc so I can imagine the general public will be in no hurry to give this up!
(http://www.glogster.com/media/2/5/62/96/5629630.jpg)
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2011, 02:05:06 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 02, 2011, 10:20:37 AM
Quote from: seafoid on November 02, 2011, 09:49:19 AM
Whatever deal is finally agreed with Greece will be applied to Ireland.
The Irish budget deficit is still €20 bn
Basically the Irish government and people brought Ireland to the position that it is in - corrupt officials, employees, tax dodging and not paying its way on a grand scale. They would prefer to bury their heads in the sand and continue to run at a deficit as long as it doesn't affect them personally.
Seafoid, I think that the Irish cannot be compared to the Greeks, as we have had to swallow manys a bitter pill in the recent past, and belts have had to be tightened across the country (granted the w**kers sorry bankers seem to be immune from penalties/suffering).
Ireland is at least trying to get itself of its knees, the Greeks seem to want their cake and eat it with lashings of cream.
I know GDA but it won't make any difference. Austerity isn't working. Cutting Government spending contracts the economy and makes it impossible to reduce the deficit to sustainable levels. There is no level of sacrifice that will cut the mustard. Ireland is going to get the same treatment as Greece IMO.
Doubt it, ireland is on the way to recovery with a plan in place, Greece is in chaos.
The Greek situation is farcical, the idea of a referendum on this issue is a joke, WTF sort of answer is the Greek PM expecting (or looking?). If the Greeks vote the way most people exercise their vote, i.e out of personal preference/interest it will be rejected. What then? There is nothing other than the Greeks being booted from the Eurozone on the cards. Maybe with the hole they are facing, bankruptcy mightn't be much worse than the current situation, either way they are 5 years from a return to any semblance of normality.
Slightly off tangent here but here is the list of bondholders that got paid today to the tune of 700 milion!
http://order-order.com/2010/10/15/anglo-irish-bondholders-should-take-the-lossesis-the-ecb-forcing-ireland-to-protect-german-investments/
Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 02, 2011, 06:22:42 PM
Greece is a basket case. It has gorged itself on EU funds for years and squandered billions in the run up to and after the 2004 Olympics. A mate worked in Athens for a few years and he said it was truly nuts. Apparently the EU built them a tube system for a few billion which punters don't pay to use and where all the workers around on about €50k a year, no-one pays tax, a few hours work a day is normal, hundreds of thousands are allowed to retire at 50 on a pension which is 95% of their salary etc etc so I can imagine the general public will be in no hurry to give this up!
Yeah i read one article said the average railroad employee earned €65k. Totally bananas. I thought we would be further along this road myself to be honest but very stoic altogether. That said not sure Greece has any light at the end of the tunnel under the current austerity plan. Orderly default and back to the drachma and they'll bounce back in a few years like Iceland. Will be hell in the meantime mind.
Greece is a basket case and needs sorted out if they are to remain in the EU.
Tax evasion is a national sport. All professional and tradesmen offer one price with a recreipt another without.
They spend more per GDP on defence than anyone else in the EU! They have a huge military for the size of the country.
They have vertuallly no exports and depend on tourism to survive. Their public servants have the best terms and conditions in Europe. You get 2 months salary as a bonus at Chritmas, 95% of final salary pension at 49 years of age and your unmarried children inherrit the pension when you die. All this has been paid for by borrowing money at cheap rates during Eurpoe's good times. Why should hard working engineers in Germany or Holland pay for this?
It's been unsustainable for years and they haven't delivered any of the promises they said they would over the past 2 years. Why does anyone think they can deliver now? Greece can't deliver because the country will starve and there is no sign of any economic growth in the private sector. When was the last time you bought something made in Greece?
Greece can't deliver what the EU is demanding because it is different from the rest of Europe. They really need to leave the EU and make their own way forward. It will be very hard for them but with a cheaper labour and lower expectations they can grow again.
Quote from: Lecale2 on November 02, 2011, 09:39:55 PM
. All this has been paid for by borrowing money at cheap rates during Eurpoe's good times. Why should hard working engineers in Germany or Holland pay for this?
Why are they making German and Dutch Engineers pay for it all?
Lets explode the myth that the Greeks, Irish,Portugese or Italians are being bailed out. The only ones being bailed out or the financial institutions who invested unwisely and gambled with other people money. While the people have more and more austerity piled on them, massive frauds are still being perpetrated by the financial institutions to nett billions of profits. All this has nothing to do with the real economies that people live in. The Markets have no ethics or morality, there sole purpose is to enrich themselves, no matter who gets hurt in the process. They are financial terrorists, and like terrorists everywhere they need to be disarmed and brought under control. If the Greek crisis destroys the present structure and creates an opportunity to rebuild a system more in keeping with the genuine needs of people, then the world will have been done a great service.
The current bleating about the proposed Greek referendum only serves to highlight how much our current rulers fear real democracy
Quote from: Pangurban on November 02, 2011, 10:30:18 PM
Lets explode the myth that the Greeks, Irish,Portugese or Italians are being bailed out. The only ones being bailed out or the financial institutions who invested unwisely and gambled with other people money. While the people have more and more austerity piled on them, massive frauds are still being perpetrated by the financial institutions to nett billions of profits. All this has nothing to do with the real economies that people live in. The Markets have no ethics or morality, there sole purpose is to enrich themselves, no matter who gets hurt in the process. They are financial terrorists, and like terrorists everywhere they need to be disarmed and brought under control. If the Greek crisis destroys the present structure and creates an opportunity to rebuild a system more in keeping with the genuine needs of people, then the world will have been done a great service.
The current bleating about the proposed Greek referendum only serves to highlight how much our current rulers fear real democracy
You have it largely correct, but strike the Greeks from that list, they deserve no sympathy. I was talking to an Irish friend living in Greece just today who can confrim most of what Lecale2 said. He descibed the levels of entitlement in that country being beyond the realms of sanity. They fail to acknowledge any blame or culpabilty for what has happened to their country and share not a single bit of solidarity with any other E.U. country be that Germany & France or Ireland and Portugal (I wonder if they care about Cyprus - but thats my own interjection).
Were we Irish any better
So now Sarkozy trying to bolster his own election chances plays the ace in the hole and tells the Greeks to make the referendum about leaving the Euro. All a sideshow cos the whole debt thing is completely unsustainable and until that's addressed it's just tinkering with the edges without lancing the boil
QuoteWere we Irish any better
"Better" is a value judgement. But Ireland is in a different situation than Greece.
The Irish above all codded themselves, the Greeks cheated.
Greece perhaps has something in common with the 6 counties. After the military rule and social division, generous pensions and deals of all sorts were used to smooth things over.