My eldest lad has just left home to start College in Coleraine today. He's only gone and I miss the brat
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 17, 2011, 10:47:46 PM
My eldest lad has just left home to start College in Coleraine today. He's only gone and I miss the brat
bit harsh to be starting on a saturday
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 17, 2011, 10:47:46 PM
My eldest lad has just left home to start College in Coleraine today. He's only gone and I miss the brat
Does Coleraine still have the highest rate of STDs out of all unis in Europe? We used to put it down to the four woman to every bloke stat in the 90s. Great spot altogether, he's going to have a ball.
Coleraine? Obviously his A'Level results weren't the best.....
Quote from: The Gs Man on September 17, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
Coleraine? Obviously his A'Level results weren't the best.....
Any need for that comment?
Quote from: The Gs Man on September 17, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
Coleraine? Obviously his A'Level results weren't the best.....
Maybe, but I've worked in QUB and TCD for quite at bit and I'd have no hesitation in saying that for most courses outside Law and Medicine, UU are head and shoulders above anything the pre-1992 Irish universities are offering.
Quote from: Ulick on September 17, 2011, 11:22:15 PM
Quote from: The Gs Man on September 17, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
Coleraine? Obviously his A'Level results weren't the best.....
Maybe, but I've worked in QUB and TCD for quite at bit and I'd have no hesitation in saying that for most courses outside Law and Medicine, UU are head and shoulders above anything the pre-1992 Irish universities are offering.
I went to Queen's but I can see in my work that UU produce far more "doers" in Engineering etc. than the theorists from Queen's. I think a lot is down to the Industrial Placement year in UU.
Well Queen's does offer a lot of placements now as well but I just get the impression the majority of QUB staff are career academics (lot of bluffers IMO). UU are more in tune with modern teaching approaches and the needs of industry. Their staff have been there and done it. You'd be hard pressed to find a member of QUB staff that has made it, or even worked, in industry.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 12:05:56 AM
Careers dept needs looked at. I have 4 friends who went to Queens. Got degrees in Management, Psychology, History and English respectively. None wanted to teach. Hadn't a clue what to do next. Fcuk it, says the 4, we'll do a masters (in all sorts of shit that I don't understand). They all finished that. Hadn't a clue what to do next. Just applied for random jobs and got them. A year on, they can't get out of their job quick enough, "It's not what I want to do".
Actually, I may be harsh on the careers dept, these fcukers would probably never darken their door. 2 heading to Austrailia.
aye right !!
Too many people doing bullshit degrees.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 12:05:56 AM
Careers dept needs looked at. I have 4 friends who went to Queens. Got degrees in Management, Psychology, History and English respectively. None wanted to teach. Hadn't a clue what to do next. Fcuk it, says the 4, we'll do a masters (in all sorts of shit that I don't understand). They all finished that. Hadn't a clue what to do next. Just applied for random jobs and got them. A year on, they can't get out of their job quick enough, "It's not what I want to do".
Actually, I may be harsh on the careers dept, these fcukers would probably never darken their door. 2 heading to Austrailia.
People know when they take on a course like Psychology whether there is a poor, fair or good chance of employment at the end. There are courses like civil engineering etc that are tied up in the peaks and troughs of the building trade but these days you need to hit the more vocational courses so you are spending 3 or 4 years focusing on study relevant to an actual job. Even then in the current climate there is no guarantee.
Great memories I can't remember from my time in Coleraine.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 12:22:58 AM
Quote from: Minder on September 18, 2011, 12:15:06 AM
Too many people doing bullshit degrees.
I tend to agree but they are being encouraged to. The archaic "A degree will stand to you" is alive and well.
That said, I'm doing one myself.
It'll stand to you. Unless it doesn't. You'll know when you're finished.
UU is by far a superior institution in terms of producing students with real world experience. A great emphasis is placed on preparing students for the working world instead of teaching them theory they do not need to know.
The University forges close links with local employers and therefore students are networking with people who will give them jobs from the moment they start their degree. It is usually easy to find a placement and therefore the students are more employable when they come out the other side.
Lecturers are very approachable and tell students exactly what they need to know to help them succeed.
94% of UU graduates are in full time employment or further education 6 months after they finish their studies.
The aim of UU is to be the best sporting university on the island of ireland and therefore students can realise their ambitions and have a good time while making friends for life.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 12:25:34 AM
UU is by far a superior institution in terms of producing students with real world experience. A great emphasis is placed on preparing students for the working world instead of teaching them theory they do not need to know.
The University forges close links with local employers and therefore students are networking with people who will give them jobs from the moment they start their degree. It is usually easy to find a placement and therefore the students are more employable when they come out the other side.
Lecturers are very approachable and tell students exactly what they need to know to help them
succeed.
94% of UU graduates are in full time employment or further education 6 months after they finish their studies.
The aim of UU is to be the best sporting university on the island of ireland and therefore students can realise their ambitions and have a good time while making friends for life.
What page of the prospectus is that out of horse?
Queen's used to offer the most degrees of any uni in Europe, they've cut back a fair bit now but at one time it was possible to get almost any combination joint honours degree such as degree in Gynaecology and Byzantine Studies.
As for Coleraine, not being up to much I can't agree with that at all, its optometry and computer games design courses are amongst the best in the UK
I'm not a horse. As a graduate from UU I can say from first hand experience that it is an excellent place to study.
Aside from its endless benefits, the one downside of UU was the many mucksavages and hallions drifting around the library wearing O'Neills jerseys, hoodies, jackets, tracksuit bottoms and asics trainers. These horrible breed of people originate from the Tyrone-South Derry region and refer to each other as lad/chap/horse/sir.
Their accent is disgusting and their manner is similar to wild guerrillas.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 12:50:53 AM
I'm not a horse. As a graduate from UU I can say from first hand experience that it is an excellent place to study.
Aside from its endless benefits, the one downside of UU was the many mucksavages and hallions drifting around the library wearing O'Neills jerseys, hoodies, jackets, tracksuit bottoms and asics trainers. These horrible breed of people originate from the Tyrone-South Derry region and refer to each other as lad/chap/horse/sir.
Their accent is disgusting and their manner is similar to wild guerrillas.
wrong thread - about 2/3 years ago that was.
They may have 10 hours contact time but you can be sure they know they're expected to do 200 hours per module. At 3 modules per semester that's 50 hours per week, not counting holiday periods. The vast majority won't do anywhere near that but will get decent grades because staff will fiddle the spreadsheets to ensure they are making expected targets. I wouldn't let any of my childer go anywhere near an Irish or British university, especially if I was having to pay for it.
QuoteThe vast majority won't do anywhere near that but will get decent grades because staff will fiddle the spreadsheets to ensure they are making expected targets.
I would be interested in seeing an example of this.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 12:50:53 AM
I'm not a horse. As a graduate from UU I can say from first hand experience that it is an excellent place to study.
Aside from its endless benefits, the one downside of UU was the many mucksavages and hallions drifting around the library wearing O'Neills jerseys, hoodies, jackets, tracksuit bottoms and asics trainers. These horrible breed of people originate from the Tyrone-South Derry region and refer to each other as lad/chap/horse/sir.
Their accent is disgusting and their manner is similar to wild guerrillas.
O'Neill has just gone way up in my estimation.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 12:59:53 AM
QuoteThe vast majority won't do anywhere near that but will get decent grades because staff will fiddle the spreadsheets to ensure they are making expected targets.
I would be interested in seeing an example of this.
It difficult to prove because lecturers are responsible for compiling their own assessment results. However if you put a freedom of information request into the minutes of external examiners meetings, over, say three consecutive years, and if they are complied correctly, you'll see from the discussions even the staff themselves don't believe most of the marks.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 01:04:39 AM
Aye, but surely they can only be paying for the contact time, or a bit more to keep the library going, marking and admin etc.
You can hardly be charging for studying a young buck is doing in the house.
My thoughts exactly. The universities are run as a business. Student aren't necessarily paying for the tuition they receive but for the certificate they get on completion. If they don't like that tough shit, who they going to complain to? (answer: nobody because they two NI universities are exempt from any legal redress).
QuoteIt difficult to prove because lecturers are responsible for compiling their own assessment results.
If it's difficult to prove then how do you know it goes on?
If a student is awarded a 2:1 grade and they actually got a 2:2 but their lecturer rounded their grade up, it would become apparent to any employer after a few weeks that the student did not have the level of skill that they suggested they did have.
If, as you suggest, the vast majority of students have their grades rounded up then surely employers should look elsewhere for employees.
However the stats don't lie. The vast majority of UU grads get jobs within 6 months.
UU is a great place to study.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 01:16:00 AM
QuoteIt difficult to prove because lecturers are responsible for compiling their own assessment results.
If it's difficult to prove then how do you know it goes on?
If a student is awarded a 2:1 grade and they actually got a 2:2 but their lecturer rounded their grade up, it would become apparent to any employer after a few weeks that the student did not have the level of skill that they suggested they did have.
If, as you suggest, the vast majority of students have their grades rounded up then surely employers should look elsewhere for employees.
However the stats don't lie. The vast majority of UU grads get jobs within 6 months.
UU is a great place to study.
A 2.1 is an average of all individual module marks over a number of years. The lecturer can't round up a pathway/degree award but if enough pressure is placed on them, they will round up their module marks so they don't face criticism at exam board meetings. There is no check on this (academic freedom which has been upheld in the courts). End result is false module marks are presented when final degree classifications are awarded. At the end of the day, lecturers are judged on their research, not teaching, so no-one is going to look too carefully at what they are doing and to be honest the lecturers themselves are not going to spend too much time worrying about it. If they're not hitting expected targets, then they change the spreadsheets to meet them. Simples.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 01:39:19 AM
What ever happened your man who went to court after being shafted (according to him) out of a 2:1, or whatever it was?
It was thrown out, because as I said, students in NI universities have no recourse to law.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 01:39:19 AM
What ever happened your man who went to court after being shafted (according to him) out of a 2:1, or whatever it was?
TYP posted it at the time but the search fuction is defunct at the minute.
He was toul to f**k off.
Basically the way it works is the universities are independent organisations founded by 'royal charter'. This gives them special privileges over their own governance in that they are not quite public organisations and not quite private - similar to the Church of England/Ireland. Now, all sorts of employment laws and Human Rights Acts have been passed in the meantime, however, so long as a University's internal student grievance policies are viewed as fair, then, under no circumstances may a student go outside those and appeal to law - as yer man did last year. It'll be thrown out every time by the judges with the excuse that 'the academic is the best person to judge on the value of student work' i.e. they are the experts, not the judge. IMO this is nonsense as you'll get judges ruling on cases of medical negligence all the time i.e. they see themselves as suitable to rule in some areas where they are not expert but refuse to rule in others. Has to be said though this situation was changed in Britain a few years back when they set-up the higher education ombudsman - so the only place where the universities are literally a law unto themselves is NI.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 01:16:00 AM
QuoteIt difficult to prove because lecturers are responsible for compiling their own assessment results.
If it's difficult to prove then how do you know it goes on?
If a student is awarded a 2:1 grade and they actually got a 2:2 but their lecturer rounded their grade up, it would become apparent to any employer after a few weeks that the student did not have the level of skill that they suggested they did have.
If, as you suggest, the vast majority of students have their grades rounded up then surely employers should look elsewhere for employees.
However the stats don't lie. The vast majority of UU grads get jobs within 6 months.
UU is a great place to study.
Thats an awful bit of shite coming from your mouth. sounds like nothing but propaganda, you must work for UU? I currently go to queens and i must admit the help you get is pure shite, you thrown 3 grand a year at the lectures and they act as if your a piece of dirt, absolutely no help whatsoever with seldom exceptions. come exam time the odd lecture will more or less tell you what questions are going to come up. feedback is piss poor and all lectures seem preoccupied about meeting a publicist to see when their next book is to be printed.
Quote from: tyrone exile on September 18, 2011, 02:15:34 AM
Thats an awful bit of shite coming from your mouth. sounds like nothing but propaganda, you must work for UU? I currently go to queens and i must admit the help you get is pure shite, you thrown 3 grand a year at the lectures and they act as if your a piece of dirt, absolutely no help whatsoever with seldom exceptions. come exam time the odd lecture will more or less tell you what questions are going to come up. feedback is piss poor and all lectures seem preoccupied about meeting a publicist to see when their next book is to be printed.
£3k per year? What are you doing, an unfunded PhD?
sorry i meant £3,375
no, sure if that was the case you wouldnt mind failing a year here and there :D
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 02:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on September 18, 2011, 02:38:48 AM
Quote from: tyrone exile on September 18, 2011, 02:36:52 AM
Quote from: Ulick on September 18, 2011, 02:35:49 AM
Quote from: tyrone exile on September 18, 2011, 02:32:57 AM
sorry i meant £3,375
Per year?
yeh. why?
I thought tuition fees were for per course, not per year of study.
Eh? It's £3000+ for the 24 weeks.
Crazy - and to think most of the lecturers are off running their own side businesses for half the week on company pay.
Quote from: hardstation on September 18, 2011, 02:41:14 AM
Quote from: Ulick on September 18, 2011, 02:38:48 AM
Quote from: tyrone exile on September 18, 2011, 02:36:52 AM
Quote from: Ulick on September 18, 2011, 02:35:49 AM
Quote from: tyrone exile on September 18, 2011, 02:32:57 AM
sorry i meant £3,375
Per year?
yeh. why?
I thought tuition fees were for per course, not per year of study.
Eh? It's £3000+ for the 24 weeks.
and thats not taking into account the reading week alot of courses have and the odd email you get from a lecture saying he/she cant make it this week.
i have 9, only 6 of these are taken by lecturers, i have a few modules a year with over 100 people in them, and its not like my course would be over subscribed.
QuoteEnd result is false module marks are presented when final degree classifications are awarded.
How do you know that this happens? Was this the case for you or did you know of a friend who had their marks rounded up?
QuoteI have to call a bullshit on the bit in bold. How the fcuk would they know?
Because a 2:2 is between 50-59% and a 2:1 is 60-69%. The gap in knowledge from the upper end of the scale to the bottom is almost 20%. That is a big difference in terms of marks in exams and therefore a big difference in knowledge. Someone who gets 69% knows a lot more than someone who gets 50%.
QuoteThats an awful bit of shite coming from your mouth. sounds like nothing but propaganda, you must work for UU? I currently go to queens and i must admit the help you get is pure shite, you thrown 3 grand a year at the lectures and they act as if your a piece of dirt, absolutely no help whatsoever with seldom exceptions. come exam time the odd lecture will more or less tell you what questions are going to come up. feedback is piss poor and all lectures seem preoccupied about meeting a publicist to see when their next book is to be printed.
No I don't work for UU. Did you study there before you went to Queens? Your little rant shows UU provides more help to students from lecturers who know what awaits a young scholar when they graduate.
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 03:08:13 AM
QuoteEnd result is false module marks are presented when final degree classifications are awarded.
How do you know that this happens? Was this the case for you or did you know of a friend who had their marks rounded up?
QuoteI have to call a bullshit on the bit in bold. How the fcuk would they know?
Because a 2:2 is between 50-59% and a 2:1 is 60-69%. The gap in knowledge from the upper end of the scale to the bottom is almost 20%. That is a big difference in terms of marks in exams and therefore a big difference in knowledge. Someone who gets 69% knows a lot more than someone who gets 50%.
QuoteThats an awful bit of shite coming from your mouth. sounds like nothing but propaganda, you must work for UU? I currently go to queens and i must admit the help you get is pure shite, you thrown 3 grand a year at the lectures and they act as if your a piece of dirt, absolutely no help whatsoever with seldom exceptions. come exam time the odd lecture will more or less tell you what questions are going to come up. feedback is piss poor and all lectures seem preoccupied about meeting a publicist to see when their next book is to be printed.
No I don't work for UU. Did you study there before you went to Queens? Your little rant shows UU provides more help to students from lecturers who know what awaits a young scholar when they graduate.
I agree with you that UU offers alot more help, most people would, however they way you were talking is like UU is the top university in the UK. yes they do prepare there students with real life experience such as placements, especially in construction courses, however especially lately, alot of students arnt able to get a company to take them on for a years placement and end up working in a shop making a bit of money, going back into there course knowing even less. what university you should go to completely depends on what kind of career you want, if it is something to do with construction or hands on work i think UU is the best, however for careers like law, accountancy politics etc, a degree from queens would definitely stand you better.
Quote from: Ulick on September 18, 2011, 01:05:35 AM
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 12:59:53 AM
QuoteThe vast majority won't do anywhere near that but will get decent grades because staff will fiddle the spreadsheets to ensure they are making expected targets.
I would be interested in seeing an example of this.
It difficult to prove because lecturers are responsible for compiling their own assessment results. However if you put a freedom of information request into the minutes of external examiners meetings, over, say three consecutive years, and if they are complied correctly, you'll see from the discussions even the staff themselves don't believe most of the marks.
Lecturers are indeed responsible for compiling their own assessment results, which at UU are then moderated internally prior to an internal preliminary exam board and which are then moderated by an external examiner prior to a formal Board of Examiners (the external examiner may only moderate a sample of the student work but will usually look at a cross section of high/medium/low standard work and will also usually look at all borderline work to check if it should be marked up or down). The external examiner will attend the Board of Examiners which are chaired by an independent person as well as having representation from the university's exam's department. I very much doubt you will find anything in the minutes which states that staff don't believe most of the marks - I think you'd find the exact opposite in fact. I think you'd also find that the vast majority of external examiners will be very confident in any marks and classifications awarded when they submit their reports.
At a Board of Examiners some border-line classifications can be questioned, discussed and subsequently may be marked up. Where this happens it will usually have been discussed at the preliminary exam board and the request to review the classification will have been presented to the external examiner who will review the student's work and will be able to make an informed decision on what classification the student should receive. This is by no means doctoring the broadsheets (not spreadsheets) to improve staff performance - the indepentant chair, external examiner and exams department representative make sure of that.
Quote from: Ulick on September 18, 2011, 01:29:49 AM
Quote from: AhJaysusRef on September 18, 2011, 01:16:00 AM
QuoteIt difficult to prove because lecturers are responsible for compiling their own assessment results.
If it's difficult to prove then how do you know it goes on?
If a student is awarded a 2:1 grade and they actually got a 2:2 but their lecturer rounded their grade up, it would become apparent to any employer after a few weeks that the student did not have the level of skill that they suggested they did have.
If, as you suggest, the vast majority of students have their grades rounded up then surely employers should look elsewhere for employees.
However the stats don't lie. The vast majority of UU grads get jobs within 6 months.
UU is a great place to study.
A 2.1 is an average of all individual module marks over a number of years. The lecturer can't round up a pathway/degree award but if enough pressure is placed on them, they will round up their module marks so they don't face criticism at exam board meetings. There is no check on this (academic freedom which has been upheld in the courts). End result is false module marks are presented when final degree classifications are awarded. At the end of the day, lecturers are judged on their research, not teaching, so no-one is going to look too carefully at what they are doing and to be honest the lecturers themselves are not going to spend too much time worrying about it. If they're not hitting expected targets, then they change the spreadsheets to meet them. Simples.
Lecturers are not judged on their teaching? Ever heard of the National Student Survey? This is taking a step further next year with the Key Information Set as well (http://www.guardian.co.uk/higher-education-network/blog/2011/aug/12/key-information-set-student-information). I think you'll find that plenty of lecturers are not hitting expected targets and are still not changing the broadsheets.
One thing that stands out to me as a negative practice in the HE sector is the use of postgraduate students being used as lab demonstrators for Year 1 students. I've heard the term "buying out" teaching on numerous occasions - this is where an academic staff member will use their research budget to employ a postgrad student to teach for them which allows the academic to concentrate on research activities - I think there is something very wrong with that - in particular if the post grad is not suitably qualified in the area of study in question or has no interest in the area.
Dougal, what's your son studying?
Having spent 4 years studying at QUB and 4 years working at UUJ, I can safely say that both institutions are monuments to wastage.
I wasn't taught anything in QUB. The lecturers tended to be old men with missing marbles, young women with no life experience, or grad students who were normally hungover.
The assessment earlier in this thread that UU us a more relevant university these days is far from the reality though. What a third level education should show, first and foremost, is an aptitude to learn and analyse. The subject isn't as relevant as the experience. And all I got from my time working in UU was a horribly narrow focus to education. Understanding the subject was nowhere near as important as understanding what the lecturers knew and liked about their subjects.
The vocational year is an interesting point. But if the value of it is so high, then surely there is an argument for bypassing academia entirely, and serving the engineering apprenticeship on site?
Anyways, anyone expecting to be enlightened through academia would be best off avoiding either institution. If you must choose one, at least QUB feels like a seat of learning and not a prison camp.
AhJaysusRef you've talked some shit on this thread. Quite amusing.
Tyrone exile
Quotewhat university you should go to completely depends on what kind of career you want, if it is something to do with construction or hands on work i think UU is the best, however for careers like law, accountancy politics etc, a degree from queens would definitely stand you better.
You were doing ok until the bit in bold.
Quote from: Take Your Points on September 18, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
Thankfully we were in a position to be able to pick up the tab for both for fees and keeping themselves without loading themselves with debt. It costs roughly £10k per year per student for fees, food, rent, heat, light, transport and books, etc. With means tested loans they would never have been able to afford it and would be leaving college with a major and expensive bank debt.
I'd have to disagree with that. Not with your choice of providing it, but it is definitely possible to support yourself as a student with the maintenance loan and a part time job at weekends without disrupting your education. What I have found for the most part is that those who are being supported by their parents (other than their fees) just have a lot more money to support their social life.
Quote from: Take Your Points on September 18, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
We have had two children at university, one has finished and got a job.
Thankfully we were in a position to be able to pick up the tab for both for fees and keeping themselves without loading themselves with debt. It costs roughly £10k per year per student for fees, food, rent, heat, light, transport and books, etc. With means tested loans they would never have been able to afford it and would be leaving college with a major and expensive bank debt. Myself and Mrs TYP went to QUB in the late 70s and early 80s and had a free education with sufficient grants to keep ourselves and leaving college debt free so it was our aim for our children.
However, I do object to the fees and value for money. Our eldest did law at QUB and received 6 hours lectures per week for three years and another 2 hours of tutorials every other week. The quality of the teaching varied from vary good to downright terrible and there was nothing to be done about it. Courses were taught so badly that they were radically changed the following year for incoming students. Degree classification isn't based on actual scores achieved over the last two years, if you managed to get high scores in a number of modules and even if your overall score isn't 70 or greater you can be awarded a first. There is a lot of manipulation of scores to hide poor teaching and little support. It's hard to see value of around £3.5K per year for 7 hours per week of tuition. Most of the books had to be bought because of availability. Anyway with a law degree from QUB getting a job should be a cert, Not. The jobs in law have been decimated by the recession with many firms laying off qualified solicitors. To get into the law society institute you must have a Master to give you a training contract and these are in very short supply. We have moved back to the bad old days where qualifications are not a factor. Contracts are now being given out to the children of family and friends. Top qualified law graduates are being beaten to places in the institute by less qualified in the know. Our law graduate got a job in the call centre for a local bank but has now moved on to accountancy with one of the big four firms.
Our other child is doing medicine at QUB and we are definitely getting value for money. Same £3.5K per year but getting top teaching for at least 24 hours per week with brilliant facilities. Hopefully there will be a job at the end even with a class size of 200+ in QUB.
£9K+ per year for tuition at UK colleges is a rip off. Imagine sending your child to QUB from UK or RoI and finding that you are paying £9K for less than 200 hours of tuition per year for law and many other degrees, around £45 per hour!
Still, every parent wants the best for their children and to give them every opportunity.
The main issue is that a university qualification is still considered to be worthwhile for too many people. As any employer will tell you, a university degree guarantees nothing, it won't mean you are getting someone with initiative, gumption and sometimes even numerate or literate and certainly not trained for the job.
We need to have a greater emphasis on training in our education system. We need to adopt the German approach to technical education and apprenticeships. It has been too handy for governments to educate for public service and financial services but this won't build a sustainable economy.
Your kids are lucky.
I'm saddled with debt for the rest of my life i reckon.
If had chance i wouldnt do it again. I'd of left school and went straight into work in a bank or something and worked my way up best i could--ceiling of earning potential may not be as high as it is for me now but i'd not have a mountain of debt that i can never see paid off.
As for university, i went to both and i too found the help from lecturers to be little more than non-existant (although to be fair i never asked for too much and got a 2.1 out of the lecture notes and textbooks cramming in the days prior to exams).
The expense for the contact time and standard of teaching was a joke.
If my kids are in a position to go to college then I'm sure Mrs Milltown will try and support them, her mum and dad even give her an allowance when at QUB (what da fcuk) Could just picture my dads face if i went to college and asked him for a wage while there!!
Its difficult for kids now heading to college and trying to get a job here afterwards. I never went, was useless at school only liked History and PE both of which would get ya fcuk all so it was the trades for me.
Thing is we have a lot of lads coming to where I teach, they have left school with good enough grades to stay on but have went the trades route knowing that their education will continue for free and they will be well paid by the firms that takes them on.
They will finish with a level 3 qualification and move on to get a HNC and a HND. They can follow that up with a degree should they wish. All the while getting paid and great experience in their job
College is only really worth it if you go for a good solid degree, i.e. the hard ones to get into. I had a great experience at college, generally well taught, challenging and good job prospects if I'd have kept it up. I didn't go to UU either Ahjayusref. Some jobs realistically do not offer a good chance of employment. Game design for example or ones doing journalism with no flair for the written word. Also from what I hear the engineering courses seem to be just piss, taught irrelevant information which leaves graduates poorly prepared for the working world.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 18, 2011, 12:47:21 PM
If my kids are in a position to go to college then I'm sure Mrs Milltown will try and support them, her mum and dad even give her an allowance when at QUB (what da fcuk) Could just picture my dads face if i went to college and asked him for a wage while there!!
Its difficult for kids now heading to college and trying to get a job here afterwards. I never went, was useless at school only liked History and PE both of which would get ya fcuk all so it was the trades for me.
Thing is we have a lot of lads coming to where I teach, they have left school with good enough grades to stay on but have went the trades route knowing that their education will continue for free and they will be well paid by the firms that takes them on.
They will finish with a level 3 qualification and move on to get a HNC and a HND. They can follow that up with a degree should they wish. All the while getting paid and great experience in there job
Post of the thread, most success stories I have heard very few start with a college education. Sean Quinn had no degree and look at the empire he built up. Another fella I know left school at 16, went to Omagh tech. He knows trades in shares in London and can sometimes be investing up to 10million a week. Think of all the successful businesses around you at home, I'd say very few started with or now employ a high degree of college graduates.
So why do many people go to college??
For the craic, the drink and the sex. It's that simple.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Lecturers are indeed responsible for compiling their own assessment results, which at UU are then moderated internally prior to an internal preliminary exam board and which are then moderated by an external examiner prior to a formal Board of Examiners (the external examiner may only moderate a sample of the student work but will usually look at a cross section of high/medium/low standard work and will also usually look at all borderline work to check if it should be marked up or down). The external examiner will attend the Board of Examiners which are chaired by an independent person as well as having representation from the university's exam's department. I very much doubt you will find anything in the minutes which states that staff don't believe most of the marks - I think you'd find the exact opposite in fact. I think you'd also find that the vast majority of external examiners will be very confident in any marks and classifications awarded when they submit their reports.
At a Board of Examiners some border-line classifications can be questioned, discussed and subsequently may be marked up. Where this happens it will usually have been discussed at the preliminary exam board and the request to review the classification will have been presented to the external examiner who will review the student's work and will be able to make an informed decision on what classification the student should receive. This is by no means doctoring the broadsheets (not spreadsheets) to improve staff performance - the indepentant chair, external examiner and exams department representative make sure of that.
Lecturers are not judged on their teaching? Ever heard of the National Student Survey? This is taking a step further next year with the Key Information Set as well (http://www.guardian.co.uk/higher-education-network/blog/2011/aug/12/key-information-set-student-information). I think you'll find that plenty of lecturers are not hitting expected targets and are still not changing the broadsheets.
One thing that stands out to me as a negative practice in the HE sector is the use of postgraduate students being used as lab demonstrators for Year 1 students. I've heard the term "buying out" teaching on numerous occasions - this is where an academic staff member will use their research budget to employ a postgrad student to teach for them which allows the academic to concentrate on research activities - I think there is something very wrong with that - in particular if the post grad is not suitably qualified in the area of study in question or has no interest in the area.
Okay TYP, lets take a look at what you are saying.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
are then moderated internally prior to an internal preliminary exam board and which are then moderated by an external examiner prior to a formal Board of Examiners
Firstly, in the vast majority of cases only exam scripts are moderated (both internally and externally) but very very few modules nowadays have an assessment based 100% on an exam with many having no exam at all or as little as 20%. Therefore, no moderation.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
the external examiner may only moderate a sample of the student work but will usually look at a cross section of high/medium/low standard work and will also usually look at all borderline work to check if it should be marked up or down
Okay, lets assume for a minute that an external examiner is minded to moderate work. They take a cross-sample of high/medium/low, borderlines and fails - given there are four borderlines that's probably about 10 or 12 scripts they should look at for each module. If your average School undergraduate programme has 35 modules (excluding those from collaborative programmes such as Foundation Degrees) that's at least 350 scripts an external would have to look at. An external examiner gets paid £3k or £4k plus expenses to come across for a day to do all of this. At least half of that day will be taken up with the actual Exam Board meeting, then there will be chats with staff, students, education committee, breakfast, lunch, coffee breaks. So that will leave him/her about 2 hours (being generous) to look at 350 scripts. That works about at about 30 seconds per script. Now the external won't necessarily know anything about these modules, so he'll have to read module descriptions, read sample answers, scores from previous years. This then leaves him even less time to look at scripts. Then there is coursework? External examiners don't moderate student work, end off. They get paid very well to come over and sit through a few meetings and agree with whatever they are told. There is no incentive on their part to rock the boat, it's a cushy number.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Board of Examiners which are chaired by an independent person as well as having representation from the university's exam's department.
This is a new one on me. This is definitely not the case in QUB or any of the southern universities I had experience off. They are normally chaired by a member of Faculty staff as part of normal admin duties and will be rotated every few years. In one university, I'll not name, I've experienced a chair of the Board who could barely speak English never mind being au fait with rules and regulations.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
I very much doubt you will find anything in the minutes which states that staff don't believe most of the marks - I think you'd find the exact opposite in fact.
True, any arguments and disagreements will be aired at the internal meetings, not minuted, in preparation for the formal Exam Board rubber stamp.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
I think you'd also find that the vast majority of external examiners will be very confident in any marks and classifications awarded when they submit their reports.
Yes, as I said above, they'll not want to rock the boat of a cushy number. Externals are usually appointed through word of mouth. A external who proves 'difficult', will find it hard to get another one once their term ends.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
At a Board of Examiners some border-line classifications can be questioned, discussed and subsequently may be marked up. Where this happens it will usually have been discussed at the preliminary exam board and the request to review the classification will have been presented to the external examiner who will review the student's work and will be able to make an informed decision on what classification the student should receive.
Again as I said, the external will agree with whatever is recommended by the Board. All contentious issues will be worked out beforehand and the external won't necessary know. For example, let's say a modules marks make a jump from 20% of students making 1st or 2.1 to 80% making those grades, the external won't necessarily know this until the information is volunteered to him, which is very unlikely given pressure to hit recommended targets.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
This is by no means doctoring the broadsheets (not spreadsheets) to improve staff performance - the indepentant chair, external examiner and exams department representative make sure of that.
Not my experience but my point is that spreadsheets will be "massaged" long before they get anywhere near an Exam Board, so even if a university had the safeguards you outline, they could (and do) slip through without any of these people knowing.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
Lecturers are not judged on their teaching? Ever heard of the National Student Survey?
The NSS has no bearing on a lecturers job appraisal process. The NSS will gather information on particular courses not particular modules and even then they are open to manipulation. A lecturer is judged primarily on his research output and the extent to which he is contributing to the aims of the School/Faculty/University. Teaching is only a very small part of it and so long as they are meeting university expectations in terms of percentages of 1st and 2.1 no one will give a stuff. Regarding the NSS, the results are dubious for a few reasons. Firstly, the very low number of students who take part. Secondly many departments have "drives" to get students to complete them so they'll encourage particular students to take the survey and I know of at least two university departments who offer "incentives" in the form of iPad competitions, free lunches etc... if they take the time to complete them.
Quote from: take_yer_points on September 18, 2011, 10:19:37 AM
One thing that stands out to me as a negative practice in the HE sector is the use of postgraduate students being used as lab demonstrators for Year 1 students.
Hehe, they should think themselves lucky to get a postgrad, may departments will use final year students (they're cheaper).
I think Gs man was joking lads. He went to Jtown himself sure...
Quote from: Take Your Points on September 18, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
We have had two children at university, one has finished and got a job.
Thankfully we were in a position to be able to pick up the tab for both for fees and keeping themselves without loading themselves with debt. It costs roughly £10k per year per student for fees, food, rent, heat, light, transport and books, etc. With means tested loans they would never have been able to afford it and would be leaving college with a major and expensive bank debt. Myself and Mrs TYP went to QUB in the late 70s and early 80s and had a free education with sufficient grants to keep ourselves and leaving college debt free so it was our aim for our children.
However, I do object to the fees and value for money. Our eldest did law at QUB and received 6 hours lectures per week for three years and another 2 hours of tutorials every other week. The quality of the teaching varied from vary good to downright terrible and there was nothing to be done about it. Courses were taught so badly that they were radically changed the following year for incoming students. Degree classification isn't based on actual scores achieved over the last two years, if you managed to get high scores in a number of modules and even if your overall score isn't 70 or greater you can be awarded a first. There is a lot of manipulation of scores to hide poor teaching and little support. It's hard to see value of around £3.5K per year for 7 hours per week of tuition. Most of the books had to be bought because of availability. Anyway with a law degree from QUB getting a job should be a cert, Not. The jobs in law have been decimated by the recession with many firms laying off qualified solicitors. To get into the law society institute you must have a Master to give you a training contract and these are in very short supply. We have moved back to the bad old days where qualifications are not a factor. Contracts are now being given out to the children of family and friends. Top qualified law graduates are being beaten to places in the institute by less qualified in the know. Our law graduate got a job in the call centre for a local bank but has now moved on to accountancy with one of the big four firms.
Our other child is doing medicine at QUB and we are definitely getting value for money. Same £3.5K per year but getting top teaching for at least 24 hours per week with brilliant facilities. Hopefully there will be a job at the end even with a class size of 200+ in QUB.
£9K+ per year for tuition at UK colleges is a rip off. Imagine sending your child to QUB from UK or RoI and finding that you are paying £9K for less than 200 hours of tuition per year for law and many other degrees, around £45 per hour!
Still, every parent wants the best for their children and to give them every opportunity.
The main issue is that a university qualification is still considered to be worthwhile for too many people. As any employer will tell you, a university degree guarantees nothing, it won't mean you are getting someone with initiative, gumption and sometimes even numerate or literate and certainly not trained for the job.
We need to have a greater emphasis on training in our education system. We need to adopt the German approach to technical education and apprenticeships. It has been too handy for governments to educate for public service and financial services but this won't build a sustainable economy.
The bit in bold is sadly true and is utterly disgraceful, serving to undermine the entire principle of the Institute.
people should stop looking down they're noses about people who went to U U
Quote from: Big Puff on September 18, 2011, 11:54:36 PM
people should stop looking down they're noses about people who went to U U
I deduce by your punctuation you "studied" there and I can tell by your spelling you didn't finish. :D
One of my lecturers (accountancy at Queens) had to be removed from our course half way through term because she was so poor that students complained
Quote from: Dougal Maguire on September 18, 2011, 10:32:39 PM
Quote from: The Gs Man on September 17, 2011, 10:55:19 PM
Coleraine? Obviously his A'Level results weren't the best.....
Thanks for that mate. He picked Coleraine because he's doing Irish and the course there is much better than Queens. He got an A and 2 Bs by the way. Does that meet with your approval
As I said earlier on in the thread, I was only joking. Not a very funny joke, but a joke all the same...
Quote from: trileacman on September 19, 2011, 12:59:04 AM
Quote from: Big Puff on September 18, 2011, 11:54:36 PM
people should stop looking down they're noses about people who went to U U
I deduce by your punctuation you "studied" there and I can tell by your spelling you didn't finish. :D
(http://operatorchan.org/v/arch/src/v25234_thats%20the%20joke.jpg)
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on September 18, 2011, 11:41:04 PM
Quote from: Take Your Points on September 18, 2011, 12:06:31 PM
We have had two children at university, one has finished and got a job.
Thankfully we were in a position to be able to pick up the tab for both for fees and keeping themselves without loading themselves with debt. It costs roughly £10k per year per student for fees, food, rent, heat, light, transport and books, etc. With means tested loans they would never have been able to afford it and would be leaving college with a major and expensive bank debt. Myself and Mrs TYP went to QUB in the late 70s and early 80s and had a free education with sufficient grants to keep ourselves and leaving college debt free so it was our aim for our children.
However, I do object to the fees and value for money. Our eldest did law at QUB and received 6 hours lectures per week for three years and another 2 hours of tutorials every other week. The quality of the teaching varied from vary good to downright terrible and there was nothing to be done about it. Courses were taught so badly that they were radically changed the following year for incoming students. Degree classification isn't based on actual scores achieved over the last two years, if you managed to get high scores in a number of modules and even if your overall score isn't 70 or greater you can be awarded a first. There is a lot of manipulation of scores to hide poor teaching and little support. It's hard to see value of around £3.5K per year for 7 hours per week of tuition. Most of the books had to be bought because of availability. Anyway with a law degree from QUB getting a job should be a cert, Not. The jobs in law have been decimated by the recession with many firms laying off qualified solicitors. To get into the law society institute you must have a Master to give you a training contract and these are in very short supply. We have moved back to the bad old days where qualifications are not a factor. Contracts are now being given out to the children of family and friends. Top qualified law graduates are being beaten to places in the institute by less qualified in the know. Our law graduate got a job in the call centre for a local bank but has now moved on to accountancy with one of the big four firms.
Our other child is doing medicine at QUB and we are definitely getting value for money. Same £3.5K per year but getting top teaching for at least 24 hours per week with brilliant facilities. Hopefully there will be a job at the end even with a class size of 200+ in QUB.
£9K+ per year for tuition at UK colleges is a rip off. Imagine sending your child to QUB from UK or RoI and finding that you are paying £9K for less than 200 hours of tuition per year for law and many other degrees, around £45 per hour!
Still, every parent wants the best for their children and to give them every opportunity.
The main issue is that a university qualification is still considered to be worthwhile for too many people. As any employer will tell you, a university degree guarantees nothing, it won't mean you are getting someone with initiative, gumption and sometimes even numerate or literate and certainly not trained for the job.
We need to have a greater emphasis on training in our education system. We need to adopt the German approach to technical education and apprenticeships. It has been too handy for governments to educate for public service and financial services but this won't build a sustainable economy.
The bit in bold is sadly true and is utterly disgraceful, serving to undermine the entire principle of the Institute.
I went to Rathmore in Belfast. I've no statistics but I believe it would be one of the biggest feeder schools to both QUB and UUJ for Law. I know many, many people who worked their absolute holes off all the way through college, often a Masters as well and are shit out of luck because the family don't know anyone to give them a training contract. One of my friends was in Law with a guy 170th on the waiting list (50 odd places I believe) for the Institute and got in because his da took him on at his firm. This is an absolute disgrace and an outrage and something the Law Society needs to look at very, very thoroughly.
So it begs the question, why take on so many people in the colleges when there is clearly no f**king work?? Baffles me no end
Went to Coleraine myself...lethal craic! Coleraine, along with Magee, will always be looked upon as the lesser of the UU campuses, but it shouldn't be! My siblings all went there and we all got good grades...was just our first choice for our specific degrees.
Tend to find that people who went to Belfast hung around with the same people, whilst Coleraine gives you the opportunity to meet more. Also has the best nighclub in the North, bar none!
Also got the chance to play football, the same opportunity wouldn't have been afforded in UUJ or Queens.
All in all, good times in UUC!
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 20, 2011, 04:34:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 20, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
So it begs the question, why take on so many people in the colleges when there is clearly no f**king work?? Baffles me no end
Probably due to a mixture of a more aspirational generation in terms of the academic outlook (at least that is what they're offered and what they're told to have a best chance for in their future careers) than in apprenticeships, that a shrinking job market makes people want to try and gain better qualifications to give them an advantage, and that's deadly craic in the Holylands, Hi! But also it is now becoming increasingly seen with half of school leavers entering third-level institutions that not having a degree is seen as some sort of personal failure for many people. Hard to blame them when the likes of Dunnes are asking applicants to have 4+ GCSEs C and above with English and Maths to stack their shelves.
Are career teachers telling students this information? Should be sacked in my opinion. We will end up losing more kids to other countries at this rate. I think they should have at least 10/15 percent extra posts for the jobs that are available.
Anything extra will end up with students getting degrees in areas that they will have a very hard time in getting work and have wasted their time in, also at a cost!!
I suppose this has been happening for years
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 20, 2011, 08:45:26 PM
Quote from: Fionntamhnach on September 20, 2011, 04:34:12 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on September 20, 2011, 03:33:20 PM
So it begs the question, why take on so many people in the colleges when there is clearly no f**king work?? Baffles me no end
Probably due to a mixture of a more aspirational generation in terms of the academic outlook (at least that is what they're offered and what they're told to have a best chance for in their future careers) than in apprenticeships, that a shrinking job market makes people want to try and gain better qualifications to give them an advantage, and that's deadly craic in the Holylands, Hi! But also it is now becoming increasingly seen with half of school leavers entering third-level institutions that not having a degree is seen as some sort of personal failure for many people. Hard to blame them when the likes of Dunnes are asking applicants to have 4+ GCSEs C and above with English and Maths to stack their shelves.
Are career teachers telling students this information? Should be sacked in my opinion. We will end up losing more kids to other countries at this rate. I think they should have at least 10/15 percent extra posts for the jobs that are available.
Anything extra will end up with students getting degrees in areas that they will have a very hard time in getting work and have wasted their time in, also at a cost!!
I suppose this has been happening for years
During New Labour's reign the boomtime made everyone middle class therefore a degree was a natural progression for the last generation. Blair made this possible by making exams easier and with higher numbers doing useless degrees they were at least in full time education for 3 years and therefore not showing up on his stats as not in education, employment or training.
I've been interviewing quite a bit of late and whilst it is obvious there is an educated workforce (if you count an exams certificate as being educated) I would say that workforce is still ill-prepared for the workplace.
Slightly related but why do so many people keep enrolling at St Marys and Stranmillis for teacher training when there are no jobs for them?
Quote from: tintin25 on September 20, 2011, 04:17:24 PM
Went to Coleraine myself...lethal craic! Coleraine, along with Magee, will always be looked upon as the lesser of the UU campuses, but it shouldn't be! My siblings all went there and we all got good grades...was just our first choice for our specific degrees.
Tend to find that people who went to Belfast hung around with the same people, whilst Coleraine gives you the opportunity to meet more. Also has the best nighclub in the North, bar none!
Also got the chance to play football, the same opportunity wouldn't have been afforded in UUJ or Queens.
All in all, good times in UUC!
I'm old enough to be there when it was NUU. +1 about getting to play football. At that stage every college was in the Sigerson. I had the dubious pleasure of Ger Houlihan making my head light one year in the 1st round....as far as we went....Played Fitzgibbon as well believe it or not...a few handy Glens hurlers were there and then thugs with sticks like myself and a few Armagh and Tyrone hoors. Great times, great college, great pubs in Portstewart like the Anchor, true about the women to men ratio ;D ;D ;D. I'd recommend it to any youngster to go up there. One of the highlights was seeing Billy Connolly live in tyhe Diamond in 84...I think...great spot...
Quote from: Minder on September 20, 2011, 09:17:43 PM
Slightly related but why do so many people keep enrolling at St Marys and Stranmillis for teacher training when there are no jobs for them?
It would be more helpful if the colleges cut their supply according to demand but I assume that would mean giving up a significant amount of funding. I know a fella out 4 years and still no full time post. He's not alone.