We knew well in advance what to expect , yet 83,000 of us paid in to support our teams, 700,000 watched the Sunday game live , all enjoying a fascinating tactical contest. There are 10 or 15 unahppy pundits and sports reporters.
It seems to me the only people unhappy with the Donegal Dublin match were those who got in free. In my opinion you never really appreciate anything you get for free. So lads give up your free press passes and start to enjoy the games.
Quote from: samwin08 on August 29, 2011, 09:10:04 PM
We knew well in advance what to expect , yet 83,000 of us paid in to support our teams, 700,000 watched the Sunday game live , all enjoying a fascinating tactical contest. There are 10 or 15 unahppy pundits and sports reporters.
It seems to me the only people unhappy with the Donegal Dublin match were those who got in free. In my opinion you never really appreciate anything you get for free. So lads give up your free press passes and start to enjoy the games.
I'm sure youtube videos of car crashes and other disasters are quite popular as well.
And the next person that describes the match as "fascinating" should be shot.
Thats a bit harsh, but you tube is free.. keep the head down now
Quote from: samwin08 on August 29, 2011, 09:10:04 PM
We knew well in advance what to expect , yet 83,000 of us paid in to support our teams, 700,000 watched the Sunday game live , all enjoying a fascinating tactical contest. There are 10 or 15 unahppy pundits and sports reporters.
It seems to me the only people unhappy with the Donegal Dublin match were those who got in free. In my opinion you never really appreciate anything you get for free. So lads give up your free press passes and start to enjoy the games.
I'll speak for myself. You can speak for the 783,000 people you think you speak for, but I'll take you as just one opinion.
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
Quote from: samwin08 on August 29, 2011, 09:10:04 PM
We knew well in advance what to expect , yet 83,000 of us paid in to support our teams, 700,000 watched the Sunday game live , all enjoying a fascinating tactical contest. There are 10 or 15 unahppy pundits and sports reporters.
It seems to me the only people unhappy with the Donegal Dublin match were those who got in free. In my opinion you never really appreciate anything you get for free. So lads give up your free press passes and start to enjoy the games.
So based on your logic, the fact that loads of people tuned in to watch an All-Ireland semi final somehow means they all automatically are "enjoying a fascinating tactical contest". Go get a life you nutter.
I know Donegal people and whilst they don't complain with being in an All-Ireland semi final, they are far from impressed with the tripe they have to endure. Most of the country detest the Donegal cynicism and most will have been pleased seeing them loose yesterday.
My prediction is that Donegal will be a one season wonder. McGuinness is a one trick pony and the shock factor will not work next year.
My analogy about watching a dog try to figure out a hedgehog turned out to be pretty accurate in the end.
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent.
The tactics are also predicated on the assumption that the opposition are far superior footballers. I wonder do many in Donegal wonder what might have happened if they'd played a bit of ball. I wish the 92 team had been so unconfident in their own abilities
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
Did the four teams you mention have 242 hand passes between them in their last game though LB? I doubt it.
All four of those teams also kick the ball when in posession.
Nor did we see any of those four team run through into their opponents 45 stop dead and then kick the ball back to their own half back line.
No comparison for me.
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 12:37:38 AM
My analogy about watching a dog try to figure out a hedgehog turned out to be pretty accurate in the end.
It looked like two hedgehogs for an hour. Then one hedgehog suddenly remembered he was a dog. But only when the other hedgehog was too tired to stay rolled up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Exactly. It also illustrates another prevalent Irish attitude - you're allowed to defend, but don't do it too well or you're showing off.
any photo's of the 2 Hedgehogs
Quote from: heffo on August 30, 2011, 09:50:10 AM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
Did the four teams you mention have 242 hand passes between them in their last game though LB? I doubt it.
All four of those teams also kick the ball when in posession.
Nor did we see any of those four team run through into their opponents 45 stop dead and then kick the ball back to their own half back line.
No comparison for me.
I did say that Donegal brought it to a different level, but dont tell me that these teams are not 'defensive'.
I just wish Derry were.
Its hypocricy and knee jerk whinging about Donegals defensive system - maybe because they were the first to take it to an 'art form' !!
I recall Donegal barely kicked the ball in 1992 either , but there wasnt as much moaning done about it then !
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
They also happen to be the highest scoring teams in the championship.
Big, big difference between them and Donegal.
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 09:50:28 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 12:37:38 AM
My analogy about watching a dog try to figure out a hedgehog turned out to be pretty accurate in the end.
It looked like two hedgehogs for an hour. Then one hedgehog suddenly remembered he was a dog. But only when the other hedgehog was too tired to stay rolled up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Exactly. It also illustrates another prevalent Irish attitude - you're allowed to defend, but don't do it too well or you're showing off.
But the question has to be asked, do you need 13 outfield players in your half to be good at defending? Having played on a highly efficient defensive team we employed the general approach that you work hard in your own personal battle but we worked harder than anyone else. We always tried to have at least 4 forwards in the opposition half at all times with the only allowance being made for big men in the middle. The tactic of dropping back from the kickout was suicide because I reckon if they had pressed on when they were ahead by 3-4 points then they would have won but they were so ingrained in the team mentality that they refused to win the game, they simply did not want to lose it. I thought it was a terrible shame to see a FF of the quality of Michael Murphy being asked to sacrifice his game to be a water carrier. He is one of those mecurial talents who should be played where he is most effective, within shooting distance of the opposition goals, not out around MF where he is no danger.
I enjouy seeing a team showing defensive qualities but it is very easy to do so when the whole premiss of the strategy is to base it on pure outweighing the opposition through numbers of bodies. A fit junior B team could do that just as easily.
Agree. It is only a matter of time until a team takes a tanking with 12 men in defence. That sounds silly I know but it will happen. I could not believe my eyes the way Dublin approached attacking. Kicking the ball into Brogan was madness! Patience is needed and very good ball skills to transfer to ball rapidly from one side of the pitch to the other. Donegal reduce the game to the logical conclusion of the defensive system. Big Jim shot the runway this year with the tactics. He might not get another chance at it.
BC2 is right and anyone who wants to see a near perfect balance between defence and attack with accurate kick passing transferring the ball fast from defence should review videos of his team in action. He should also know. His lot invented this stuff at club and county! However, they also had attacking policies centered around kicking the ball. Why they gave it up at county level is beyond me...
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Mayo v Kerry yielded 2-31.
Donegal v Dubs 0-14.
If we are a negative defensive team we are pretty crap at it but it seems we can score despite our defensive set up.
As said, Donegal have taken that further step in their defensive system where they are so 'disciplined' they wont, not cant, they wont attack as much as they can or as much as they could and imo indeed should given the forward talent I believe they have.
I'd think that a lot of junior b teams and indeed iner and senior sides will mimic the donegal strategy in the next year or so. I wonder will they be as good.
I suspect a few intercounty teams will try it for a while too.
from all those teams listed as being defensive - it shows that the tactic obv works. Get behind the ball and when your opponent is stretched, attack at speed and yield more scores than you are used to.
How else can the wide merchants like mayo and kildare be up there in the highest scoring stakes...lets face it, they were never going to be close to winning an AI - surprising a big team somewhere in the season, but never winning SAM (especially when you think that London and wikla were as close to beating these teams as others !)
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 30, 2011, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 09:50:28 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 12:37:38 AM
My analogy about watching a dog try to figure out a hedgehog turned out to be pretty accurate in the end.
It looked like two hedgehogs for an hour. Then one hedgehog suddenly remembered he was a dog. But only when the other hedgehog was too tired to stay rolled up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Exactly. It also illustrates another prevalent Irish attitude - you're allowed to defend, but don't do it too well or you're showing off.
But the question has to be asked, do you need 13 outfield players in your half to be good at defending? Having played on a highly efficient defensive team we employed the general approach that you work hard in your own personal battle but we worked harder than anyone else. We always tried to have at least 4 forwards in the opposition half at all times with the only allowance being made for big men in the middle. The tactic of dropping back from the kickout was suicide because I reckon if they had pressed on when they were ahead by 3-4 points then they would have won but they were so ingrained in the team mentality that they refused to win the game, they simply did not want to lose it. I thought it was a terrible shame to see a FF of the quality of Michael Murphy being asked to sacrifice his game to be a water carrier. He is one of those mecurial talents who should be played where he is most effective, within shooting distance of the opposition goals, not out around MF where he is no danger.
I enjouy seeing a team showing defensive qualities but it is very easy to do so when the whole premiss of the strategy is to base it on pure outweighing the opposition through numbers of bodies. A fit junior B team could do that just as easily.
Quote from: sheamy on August 30, 2011, 11:37:45 AM
Agree. It is only a matter of time until a team takes a tanking with 12 men in defence. That sounds silly I know but it will happen. I could not believe my eyes the way Dublin approached attacking. Kicking the ball into Brogan was madness! Patience is needed and very good ball skills to transfer to ball rapidly from one side of the pitch to the other. Donegal reduce the game to the logical conclusion of the defensive system. Big Jim shot the runway this year with the tactics. He might not get another chance at it.
BC2 is right and anyone who wants to see a near perfect balance between defence and attack with accurate kick passing transferring the ball fast from defence should review videos of his team in action. He should also know. His lot invented this stuff at club and county! However, they also had attacking policies centered around kicking the ball. Why they gave it up at county level is beyond me...
I'm not necessarily defending Donegal's style of defending. I'm saying it's a valid tactic and an interesting experiment and giving out about the ould wans around here having fainting fits and pronouncing football dead because a manager deployed this tactic, almost successfully. As I said before, I found it fascinating (go ahead, shoot, whoever made that threat) from all sorts of points of view.
- Could they keep it up, given the amount of energy it requires? Answer - no, they couldn't.
- Did it mean they couldn't find enough scores to win playing this way? Answer - yes, it did.
- Could they actually hold another team scoreless from play? Answer - nearly.
- Could Dublin find the key to overcoming it? Answer – I'm not sure – maybe they did or maybe Donegal just got tired.
What I hate about Donegal's style is not the efficient defending, but the excessive handpassing it demands. I really hate that. It's hateful. Did I mention I hate it? Defending is an art and it's fascinating (sorry) to see how different teams go about it in different ways. Handpassing is not football and should be eradicated.
It's too soon, in my estimation to say whether the 14-man defence will prove to be a revolutionary departure that will be adopted by everybody, but I'd give 50/1 against it. There's very little new under the sun and every system has the seeds of its own destruction contained in it. Four men marking one man means there are three men free. Etc., etc. If it does take over, then we have the option to change the rules if we must insist on the Harlem Globetrotters version of sport as entertainment where people can't appreciate a game unless there's a score a minute.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 12:41:02 PM
As said, Donegal have taken that further step in their defensive system where they are so 'disciplined' they wont, not cant, they wont attack as much as they can or as much as they could and imo indeed should given the forward talent I believe they have.
I'd think that a lot of junior b teams and indeed iner and senior sides will mimic the donegal strategy in the next year or so. I wonder will they be as good.
I suspect a few intercounty teams will try it for a while too.
from all those teams listed as being defensive - it shows that the tactic obv works. Get behind the ball and when your opponent is stretched, attack at speed and yield more scores than you are used to.
How else can the wide merchants like mayo and kildare be up there in the highest scoring stakes...lets face it, they were never going to be close to winning an AI - surprising a big team somewhere in the season, but never winning SAM (especially when you think that London and wikla were as close to beating these teams as others !)
As I said elsewhere, while club teams may try it, it won't work. It requires exceptional fitness and an exceptionally low error rate to avoid leaving the door open.
same for me Hardy, I am not actually trying to defend Donegals tactics, but they are effective and they do it so well - despite how bad it looks.
They get results.
To the football purists, the defensive strategies of Kerry, Dublin, Kildare, Mayo etc etc all prob look horrible to watch also.
I'm not one of these but people are getting hysterical as well as hypocritical !
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 12:48:27 PM
As I said elsewhere, while club teams may try it, it won't work. It requires exceptional fitness and an exceptionally low error rate to avoid leaving the door open.
thats just it - they will try it and its going to be funny to see teams make a balls of it - as despite this looking like its bad football, you need to have some amount of skills and awareness as well as fitness to be able to play this way. A majority of teams wont have the players or the discipline!
imo a cross between this and 7 a side strategy would be the perfect footballing blend.
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 30, 2011, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 09:50:28 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 12:37:38 AM
My analogy about watching a dog try to figure out a hedgehog turned out to be pretty accurate in the end.
It looked like two hedgehogs for an hour. Then one hedgehog suddenly remembered he was a dog. But only when the other hedgehog was too tired to stay rolled up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Exactly. It also illustrates another prevalent Irish attitude - you're allowed to defend, but don't do it too well or you're showing off.
But the question has to be asked, do you need 13 outfield players in your half to be good at defending? Having played on a highly efficient defensive team we employed the general approach that you work hard in your own personal battle but we worked harder than anyone else. We always tried to have at least 4 forwards in the opposition half at all times with the only allowance being made for big men in the middle. The tactic of dropping back from the kickout was suicide because I reckon if they had pressed on when they were ahead by 3-4 points then they would have won but they were so ingrained in the team mentality that they refused to win the game, they simply did not want to lose it. I thought it was a terrible shame to see a FF of the quality of Michael Murphy being asked to sacrifice his game to be a water carrier. He is one of those mecurial talents who should be played where he is most effective, within shooting distance of the opposition goals, not out around MF where he is no danger.
I enjouy seeing a team showing defensive qualities but it is very easy to do so when the whole premiss of the strategy is to base it on pure outweighing the opposition through numbers of bodies. A fit junior B team could do that just as easily.
Quote from: sheamy on August 30, 2011, 11:37:45 AM
Agree. It is only a matter of time until a team takes a tanking with 12 men in defence. That sounds silly I know but it will happen. I could not believe my eyes the way Dublin approached attacking. Kicking the ball into Brogan was madness! Patience is needed and very good ball skills to transfer to ball rapidly from one side of the pitch to the other. Donegal reduce the game to the logical conclusion of the defensive system. Big Jim shot the runway this year with the tactics. He might not get another chance at it.
BC2 is right and anyone who wants to see a near perfect balance between defence and attack with accurate kick passing transferring the ball fast from defence should review videos of his team in action. He should also know. His lot invented this stuff at club and county! However, they also had attacking policies centered around kicking the ball. Why they gave it up at county level is beyond me...
I'm not necessarily defending Donegal's style of defending. I'm saying it's a valid tactic and an interesting experiment and giving out about the ould wans around here having fainting fits and pronouncing football dead because a manager deployed this tactic, almost successfully. As I said before, I found it fascinating (go ahead, shoot, whoever made that threat) from all sorts of points of view.
- Could they keep it up, given the amount of energy it requires? Answer - no, they couldn't.
- Did it mean they couldn't find enough scores to win playing this way? Answer - yes, it did.
- Could they actually hold another team scoreless from play? Answer - nearly.
- Could Dublin find the key to overcoming it? Answer – I'm not sure – maybe they did or maybe Donegal just got tired.
What I hate about Donegal's style is not the efficient defending, but the excessive handpassing it demands. I really hate that. It's hateful. Did I mention I hate it? Defending is an art and it's fascinating (sorry) to see how different teams go about it in different ways. Handpassing is not football and should be eradicated.
It's too soon, in my estimation to say whether the 14-man defence will prove to be a revolutionary departure that will be adopted by everybody, but I'd give 50/1 against it. There's very little new under the sun and every system has the seeds of its own destruction contained in it. Four men marking one man means there are three men free. Etc., etc. If it does take over, then we have the option to change the rules if we must insist on the Harlem Globetrotters version of sport as entertainment where people can't appreciate a game unless there's a score a minute.
But surely as an overall plan to win games at the highest level it is very flawed? Is it the most efficient way to defend? Efficiency would mean that you use the minimum amount of resources to achieve the best possible results. If each tackle has 4 players involved in it is that the most efficient use of players? If you used 3 players instead and kept an extra 2 forwards up in the forward line would it not be highly likely that you would achieve the same result?
GK
RFB FB LFB
RHF LHF
RHB CHB LHB
CHF
MF MF
RFF
FF LFF
There you have you're HF line playing as sweepers/extra tacklers around the key areas. You then also have an outlet in the half forward line through the RFF and then two options in the FF line. I believe that if Donegal had played this type of a line out with Murphy and McFadden in the FF line with young McBrearty buzzing around in front of them then they would have won. I don't necessarily agree with it as a system but it could work for Donegal.
I agree, BC. That's why I said it's not going to be the next big thing. If it did become popular, it might have the positive effect of making teams and players develop their long range shooting skills.
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 30, 2011, 01:09:01 PM
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 12:46:53 PM
Quote from: brokencrossbar1 on August 30, 2011, 11:10:18 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 30, 2011, 09:50:28 AM
Quote from: Jinxy on August 30, 2011, 12:37:38 AM
My analogy about watching a dog try to figure out a hedgehog turned out to be pretty accurate in the end.
It looked like two hedgehogs for an hour. Then one hedgehog suddenly remembered he was a dog. But only when the other hedgehog was too tired to stay rolled up.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 09:35:06 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
Donegal's tactics are entirely predicated on the assumption that the opposition have an ounce of intent. I am already hoping they meet a similar minded team who retreat into their own half, in the first round of Ulster next year. We will have the first ever 5 game series which will also be the first ever no score 5 games series.
No doubt some will find it fascinating.
what I also find fascinating is that everyone is pointing the finger at Donegal being ultra defensive etc - but not spotting the black kettle resting beside them.
Dublin, kildare, Mayo, Kerry and a few more are guilty of the same tactic, but they just didnt take it as far as Donegal did.
This is truely an Irish phenomenon - "everyone is marching out of step except my paddy" !!
:D
Exactly. It also illustrates another prevalent Irish attitude - you're allowed to defend, but don't do it too well or you're showing off.
But the question has to be asked, do you need 13 outfield players in your half to be good at defending? Having played on a highly efficient defensive team we employed the general approach that you work hard in your own personal battle but we worked harder than anyone else. We always tried to have at least 4 forwards in the opposition half at all times with the only allowance being made for big men in the middle. The tactic of dropping back from the kickout was suicide because I reckon if they had pressed on when they were ahead by 3-4 points then they would have won but they were so ingrained in the team mentality that they refused to win the game, they simply did not want to lose it. I thought it was a terrible shame to see a FF of the quality of Michael Murphy being asked to sacrifice his game to be a water carrier. He is one of those mecurial talents who should be played where he is most effective, within shooting distance of the opposition goals, not out around MF where he is no danger.
I enjouy seeing a team showing defensive qualities but it is very easy to do so when the whole premiss of the strategy is to base it on pure outweighing the opposition through numbers of bodies. A fit junior B team could do that just as easily.
Quote from: sheamy on August 30, 2011, 11:37:45 AM
Agree. It is only a matter of time until a team takes a tanking with 12 men in defence. That sounds silly I know but it will happen. I could not believe my eyes the way Dublin approached attacking. Kicking the ball into Brogan was madness! Patience is needed and very good ball skills to transfer to ball rapidly from one side of the pitch to the other. Donegal reduce the game to the logical conclusion of the defensive system. Big Jim shot the runway this year with the tactics. He might not get another chance at it.
BC2 is right and anyone who wants to see a near perfect balance between defence and attack with accurate kick passing transferring the ball fast from defence should review videos of his team in action. He should also know. His lot invented this stuff at club and county! However, they also had attacking policies centered around kicking the ball. Why they gave it up at county level is beyond me...
I'm not necessarily defending Donegal's style of defending. I'm saying it's a valid tactic and an interesting experiment and giving out about the ould wans around here having fainting fits and pronouncing football dead because a manager deployed this tactic, almost successfully. As I said before, I found it fascinating (go ahead, shoot, whoever made that threat) from all sorts of points of view.
- Could they keep it up, given the amount of energy it requires? Answer - no, they couldn't.
- Did it mean they couldn't find enough scores to win playing this way? Answer - yes, it did.
- Could they actually hold another team scoreless from play? Answer - nearly.
- Could Dublin find the key to overcoming it? Answer – I'm not sure – maybe they did or maybe Donegal just got tired.
What I hate about Donegal's style is not the efficient defending, but the excessive handpassing it demands. I really hate that. It's hateful. Did I mention I hate it? Defending is an art and it's fascinating (sorry) to see how different teams go about it in different ways. Handpassing is not football and should be eradicated.
It's too soon, in my estimation to say whether the 14-man defence will prove to be a revolutionary departure that will be adopted by everybody, but I'd give 50/1 against it. There's very little new under the sun and every system has the seeds of its own destruction contained in it. Four men marking one man means there are three men free. Etc., etc. If it does take over, then we have the option to change the rules if we must insist on the Harlem Globetrotters version of sport as entertainment where people can't appreciate a game unless there's a score a minute.
But surely as an overall plan to win games at the highest level it is very flawed? Is it the most efficient way to defend? Efficiency would mean that you use the minimum amount of resources to achieve the best possible results. If each tackle has 4 players involved in it is that the most efficient use of players? If you used 3 players instead and kept an extra 2 forwards up in the forward line would it not be highly likely that you would achieve the same result?
GK
RFB FB LFB
RHF LHF
RHB CHB LHB
CHF
MF MF
RFF
FF LFF
There you have you're HF line playing as sweepers/extra tacklers around the key areas. You then also have an outlet in the half forward line through the RFF and then two options in the FF line. I believe that if Donegal had played this type of a line out with Murphy and McFadden in the FF line with young McBrearty buzzing around in front of them then they would have won. I don't necessarily agree with it as a system but it could work for Donegal.
a full back line of FF +LVF +UVF and the Red hand defenders would be dynamite.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 12:41:02 PM
As said, Donegal have taken that further step in their defensive system where they are so 'disciplined' they wont, not cant, they wont attack as much as they can or as much as they could and imo indeed should given the forward talent I believe they have.
I'd think that a lot of junior b teams and indeed iner and senior sides will mimic the donegal strategy in the next year or so. I wonder will they be as good.
I suspect a few intercounty teams will try it for a while too.
from all those teams listed as being defensive - it shows that the tactic obv works. Get behind the ball and when your opponent is stretched, attack at speed and yield more scores than you are used to.
How else can the wide merchants like mayo and kildare be up there in the highest scoring stakes...lets face it, they were never going to be close to winning an AI - surprising a big team somewhere in the season, but never winning SAM (especially when you think that London and wikla were as close to beating these teams as others !)
That is because they both tried to win when they played. Sadly it has come to a situation whereby we are complimenting teams for actually trying to wins matches. Some of us traditionalists thought that was the point all along but it seems I am outdated.
Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2011, 01:49:36 PM
That is because they both tried to win when they played. Sadly it has come to a situation whereby we are complimenting teams for actually trying to wins matches. Some of us traditionalists thought that was the point all along but it seems I am outdated.
do you think Donegal went out to lose?
Barring an inj, missed goal chance and a couple of soft frees scored - they were remarkably close to doing so if this was the case!
If you are a traditionalist, then you disagree with the defensive tactics used by Kerry, Donegal, Dublin, Mayo, Kildare etc etc
I have yet to read any of the Donegal detractors from these counties criticise their own teams style of defensive play.
I wouldnt implement those donegal tactics myself, but something more along the lines of the others - but I cant be a hypocrite and criticise Donegal for taking it one step further !
I mightn't like those tactics, but they are effective and should have taken Donegal to the final.
A bit more daring from Donegal in attack would have seen them win. they can only blame themselves. I fear other teams will use this tactic and we will see dreadful football throughout the country as teams realise they cannot copy it.
Quote from: ck on August 30, 2011, 12:01:39 AM
Quote from: samwin08 on August 29, 2011, 09:10:04 PM
We knew well in advance what to expect , yet 83,000 of us paid in to support our teams, 700,000 watched the Sunday game live , all enjoying a fascinating tactical contest. There are 10 or 15 unahppy pundits and sports reporters.
It seems to me the only people unhappy with the Donegal Dublin match were those who got in free. In my opinion you never really appreciate anything you get for free. So lads give up your free press passes and start to enjoy the games.
So based on your logic, the fact that loads of people tuned in to watch an All-Ireland semi final somehow means they all automatically are "enjoying a fascinating tactical contest". Go get a life you nutter.
I know Donegal people and whilst they don't complain with being in an All-Ireland semi final, they are far from impressed with the tripe they have to endure. Most of the country detest the Donegal cynicism and most will have been pleased seeing them loose yesterday.
My prediction is that Donegal will be a one season wonder. McGuinness is a one trick pony and the shock factor will not work next year.
not sure about the bit in bold, but I was told that before the All-Ireland semi, the Donegal CB were already giving out about how much this campaign was costing them...expect a tightening of the purse strings next year and see what unfolds as a result
The TV show with the highest rating was the Rose of Tralee. Does that mean it's the best show on Irish TV?
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 30, 2011, 03:07:42 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2011, 01:49:36 PM
That is because they both tried to win when they played. Sadly it has come to a situation whereby we are complimenting teams for actually trying to wins matches. Some of us traditionalists thought that was the point all along but it seems I am outdated.
do you think Donegal went out to lose?
Barring an inj, missed goal chance and a couple of soft frees scored - they were remarkably close to doing so if this was the case!
If you are a traditionalist, then you disagree with the defensive tactics used by Kerry, Donegal, Dublin, Mayo, Kildare etc etc
I have yet to read any of the Donegal detractors from these counties criticise their own teams style of defensive play.
I wouldnt implement those donegal tactics myself, but something more along the lines of the others - but I cant be a hypocrite and criticise Donegal for taking it one step further !
I mightn't like those tactics, but they are effective and should have taken Donegal to the final.
A bit more daring from Donegal in attack would have seen them win. they can only blame themselves. I fear other teams will use this tactic and we will see dreadful football throughout the country as teams realise they cannot copy it.
Do you see a difference between playing with 5 forwards and playing with 1 forward?
Donegal didn't go out to lose, they just didn't try to win by scoring. They went out trying not to concede anything and presumably they hoped for a few miracles at the other end.
QuoteWhat I hate about Donegal's style is not the efficient defending, but the excessive handpassing it demands. I really hate that. It's hateful. Did I mention I hate it? Defending is an art and it's fascinating (sorry) to see how different teams go about it in different ways. Handpassing is not football and should be eradicated
.
Nobody disputes that defending is an art and is equally important as attacking. That is precisely why Donegal's defending is such an abomination. It takes all the art out of it. They don't trust their defensive ablities at all. Its simply bodies to crowd space and the lungs to run end to end. If you were to look at it as purely a physical spectacle then yeah, its "fascinating" but don't try to sell it as an "art". Its not even tactically that hard to implement..it doesnt require much intelligence...all you need are fellas willing and able to run all day.
Also, you are showing either extreme naivety or your being disingenuous about the handpass. Its hard enough to breakdown a defence with handpassing but trying to kickpass into a packed defence is suicide. If the forward catches it he is surrounded and if he breaks it its two defenders against every forward. The blanket defence puts an extreme burden on the attacking side, basically they must minimize risk and the handpass is less risky than the footpass so what do you think will happen ? .... and you may say "well, its up to the other side to counteract it" ..fine..but the reality is that the most likely way to beat it is to adopt the same defensive posture and try and find some edge somewhere. Dublin's "edge" yesterday was they still wanted to win the game. Donegal just didnt want to lose. I know thats sounds strange but its the only way I can describe it. I still cant believe that Dublin took more risks when 2 points up that Donegal did when they were two points down but that is exactly what happened yesterday with a few minutes left.
Defending is an art certainly.
Trappatoni used to have his back 4 at Juve defend against 6/7 attackers in training. That was to teach them how to really defend.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 30, 2011, 08:41:05 PM
QuoteWhat I hate about Donegal's style is not the efficient defending, but the excessive handpassing it demands. I really hate that. It's hateful. Did I mention I hate it? Defending is an art and it's fascinating (sorry) to see how different teams go about it in different ways. Handpassing is not football and should be eradicated
.
Nobody disputes that defending is an art and is equally important as attacking. That is precisely why Donegal's defending is such an abomination. It takes all the art out of it. They don't trust their defensive ablities at all. Its simply bodies to crowd space and the lungs to run end to end. If you were to look at it as purely a physical spectacle then yeah, its "fascinating" but don't try to sell it as an "art". Its not even tactically that hard to implement..it doesnt require much intelligence...all you need are fellas willing and able to run all day.
Also, you are showing either extreme naivety or your being disingenuous about the handpass. Its hard enough to breakdown a defence with handpassing but trying to kickpass into a packed defence is suicide. If the forward catches it he is surrounded and if he breaks it its two defenders against every forward. The blanket defence puts an extreme burden on the attacking side, basically they must minimize risk and the handpass is less risky than the footpass so what do you think will happen ? .... and you may say "well, its up to the other side to counteract it" ..fine..but the reality is that the most likely way to beat it is to adopt the same defensive posture and try and find some edge somewhere. Dublin's "edge" yesterday was they still wanted to win the game. Donegal just didnt want to lose. I know thats sounds strange but its the only way I can describe it. I still cant believe that Dublin took more risks when 2 points up that Donegal did when they were two points down but that is exactly what happened yesterday with a few minutes left.
Did someone steal your pc Mike?! In a rare moment of sincerity you've just described how the AI will pan out with Kerry going all nordie (again) to match the jacks, and then using their extra special powers to grind out a win.
Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2011, 06:40:05 PM
Do you see a difference between playing with 5 forwards and playing with 1 forward?
Donegal didn't go out to lose, they just didn't try to win by scoring. They went out trying not to concede anything and presumably they hoped for a few miracles at the other end.
Seriously Muppet, yer a smarter buchaill than that !
Donegal went out to win. Of course I know the difference in 5 or 6 forwards as opposed to 1.
It could be argued that McGuinness is making better use of the entire team rather than have them redundant in parts of the game (ie forwards are doing nothing when the opposition is attacking).
Maybe we should get McGuinness a job on some Gov board to improve worker efficiency !
donegal didnt need miracles. they certainly had enough chances to score and through this and their lack of conviction to attach just a little bit more - well that cost them. No divine intervention required.
Its horrible and I hated watching this system against Derry,Antrim and Dublin (other games it wasnt as pronounced - maybe just the first half v Kildare) but again, most other teams use a defensive system, others imo are worse with cynical fouling etc (though Donegal are past masters at this, it wasnt as bad v Dublin).
Horrible and all as it is, it works for them and you have to give credit for this - however grudgingly.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 31, 2011, 08:51:49 AM
Quote from: muppet on August 30, 2011, 06:40:05 PM
Do you see a difference between playing with 5 forwards and playing with 1 forward?
Donegal didn't go out to lose, they just didn't try to win by scoring. They went out trying not to concede anything and presumably they hoped for a few miracles at the other end.
Seriously Muppet, yer a smarter buchaill than that !
Donegal went out to win. Of course I know the difference in 5 or 6 forwards as opposed to 1.
It could be argued that McGuinness is making better use of the entire team rather than have them redundant in parts of the game (ie forwards are doing nothing when the opposition is attacking).
Maybe we should get McGuinness a job on some Gov board to improve worker efficiency !
donegal didnt need miracles. they certainly had enough chances to score and through this and their lack of conviction to attach just a little bit more - well that cost them. No divine intervention required.
Its horrible and I hated watching this system against Derry,Antrim and Dublin (other games it wasnt as pronounced - maybe just the first half v Kildare) but again, most other teams use a defensive system, others imo are worse with cynical fouling etc (though Donegal are past masters at this, it wasnt as bad v Dublin).
Horrible and all as it is, it works for them and you have to give credit for this - however grudgingly.
He is well able for that, gettting 13 men to do a job that 6 should be able to do!
Quote from: the Deel Rover on August 30, 2011, 09:54:49 AM
any photo's of the 2 Hedgehogs
(http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lkxpzdlSt71qi81ioo1_500.jpg)