Believe that the current back door system is killing our national games (along with professionalism in other sports) and certainly the Provincial Championships. Would like to see current Leagues scrapped and replaced with Provincial Leagues where Counties could play home and away in Munster (6 Counties) and Connacht (6 incl New York); Ulster (10 incl London) and Leinster (12) could have Counties play once in neutral venues or home and away on alternative years. Whilst teams are far from their peak in the Winter, believe All-Ireland Seeding Positions and local rivalries should revive interest in the Provincial Championships. Whether Group Winners are crowned Provincial Champions or secures them Home match final against Runners-Up could be debated, along with merits of extending League by having Provincial Winners (and possibly Runners-Up) to Play on for All-Ireland League title. If this new format were to take place it could enable a seeded draw for the All-Ireland Championships, possibly with group stages where top team(s) advance to another group stage, then knock-out at Quarter/Semi-Final Rounds. There would be no back door, but all teams would have plenty of games. Teams getting knocked out in group stages can then play out for All-Ireland rank (for following season) for the Secondary titles that already exist. Do think that all counties would have to field teams in both codes for this proposal to work (weaker counties could be allowed 'borrow' unselected squad players from stronger counties each year to help game(s) progress there, but thats probably for another discussion board!
Scrap the National League and play Provincial championships. Then depending on how you do in that, you'll be seeded in four distinct bands. The provincial champions and runners-up will be seeded in top bracket and each one will be top seeds in eight seperate groups like the Champions League with each county getting three guaranteed games before the last 16 knockout starts, then onto the quarter final etc.
What it the thinking behind have London in Ulster and not one of the provinces that have 6 teams?
I didn't say scrap the provincials, I said play them. I only suggested scrapping the league.
Danny Murphy the Ulster Sec says the Donegal joy yesterday in Clones proves the importance of the provincial championships. It was certainly nice to see fans and players go nuts about winning Ulster cos no offence to recent winners but we havent seen that for a while. http://tiny.cc/hxgoq (http://tiny.cc/hxgoq)
Quote from: Paddy Wan Kenobi on July 18, 2011, 12:11:23 PM
I didn't say scrap the provincials, I said play them. I only suggested scrapping the league.
Corrected my comments:
I'm bang opposed to seedings in Gaelic football. All it does is perpetuate an elite group. The champion's league is becoming a joke. The seeding system works simply to ensure that 2 English, 2 Spanish, 2 Italian, a German and a French team get to the last 16. A seeding system would keep Cork, Kerry, Dublin, Kildare, Tyrone, Armagh & Down all apart and effectively guarantee them safe passage to the latter stages with no real risks. That would become a turn off for people.
More importantly it prevents the beautiful transitory nature of football that exists as we have no transfer system. Some years a lesser county suddenly gets lucky with a good crop of players. In an open draw they have the same chance to shine. In a seeding system they have harder games than the better established teams and so are at a disadvantage and have less chance to make the breakthrough. Seeding is a way of preserving a group of teams at the top when they no longer deserve to be there.
Incidentally your system makes little sense you say "
Scrap the National League and play Provincial championships. Then depending on how you do in that, you'll be seeded in four distinct bands."
But how do you compare performances in differing provincial championships? Roscommon got to the Connaght final so do you think they deserve to be seeded ahead of Armagh or Down. Down lost to Armagh, but are better than the team Roscommon beat in the quarter final (New York), Armagh lost to Derry but are better than the team Roscommon beat in the semi (Leitrim).
Also if you scrap the leagues how to counties develop their teams? A second competition is absolutely essential to try out new formations and line-ups as preparation for the championship. And in the league most games are competitive. Your system guarantees that there are a load of games that are deliberately uncompetitive because to make sure that one of the least performing teams plays one of the best performing teams in at least every group, how may people do you think would be eager to part with money for that game?
I'm glad we're finally airing this subject here.
Under my 'flawless' system, you could increase it so all teams play their three group rivals home and away, giving each county six games a season guaranteed, plus any games they get in the provincial. To be fair though I haven't heard any suggestion that somebody else hasn't said is flawed, so who knows?
I would only make a slight alteration to the current format for the football.
People have to remember we are not professional and any notions of having a 'Champions league' style format are not for me. Every Championship match has to mean something and with a Champions league style format we would end up with dead rubber matches, teams not turning up, pulling out, no crowds, in effect a farce.
Remember our games are parochial and that is where our strength lies, hence the provinces should be restored to greater importance than the qualifiers.
The changes I would make is have May called Qualifier month. (Reduce the amount of league games by 1 or 2 so that it finishes in mid April)
All teams in an Open draw with 3 rounds delivering 4 teams into the AI Quarter Finals in August.
Then play the provinces from June onwards.
If a team wins their province and is also a qualifier then they automatically make the AI semi final.
(loss of revenue by not having a QF should not be brought into the argument imo)
This would bring the real knockout back to the provinces, every team will have had their 2 chances, so no more whinging from the provincial winners.
The provincial draws can also be made according to how their teams are progressing in the Open Draw qualiifiers. The should mean teams should not have to wait to long to play and also that they get at least 2 weeks gap between playing.
Other criteria could include that in the Open draw there has to be a winner on the day i.e. no replays so continue to play extra tim till you have a winner or have some form of shoot out.
With floodlights in most grounds now, provinces should play games(where appropriate) on Sat night as well as Sunday.
Although opposed to seeding I do however think the championship needs a tidy-up. I think we should definitely keep the league for the reasons I have stated above.
My main concern is that there is less and less interest in the provincial competitions. If you lose a final you only go back one step (round 4) and so only have to win one extra game to get to the quarter final like the team that beat you. So Cork and Kerry don't care too much about winning Munster, and Dublin wouldn't have shed a tear if Kildare had beat them. Secondly they take so long to run that once a team is out their fans have well lost neutral interest by the time the final comes around
So my proposal is:
I think we should have more football. Instead of spacing the provincial championships one game a week I think more should be run at once. I think the provincial championship and the All-Ireland should be separate competitions. Here is how I think it should work:
1) Starting May the provincial championships are run one week after another, quarters, semis, then final (maybe every fortnight to allow for replays) but all teams in a round play the same weekend. The winner gets an automatic bye into the All-Ireland quarter-finals (as happens now)
2) Here is the big difference - Starting June, the All-Ireland series (apart from the four provincial winners) should now be played as a totally open-draw knock-out system for the remaining 28-29 teams, with the provincial champions joining in quarter final stage.
This is different because everyone enters the "qualifier" stage at the same time and the same level. It effectively makes the provincial championship a separate competition with a big incentive for winning. Also it stops this idea of virtually guaranteeing a couple of early easy qualifying games because all teams would be available in the open draw.
The big flaw may be that provincial winners could go 6 weeks with no football as they miss the whole qualifiers. There was a suggestion made to me that the four provincial winners play a mini-round robin in this time and the top two go straight to the semis, with the other two joining last round of qualifiers in a quarter final scenario to decide the other two semi-finalists.
The idea is to change the system to improve it but without doing anything too drastic that would be too big a risk to consistency of the game. I think the modifications above improve the situation by putting increased focus on provincial championships, making it fairer for all, separating the competitions and giving us more football to enjoy.
Quote from: Hardy on July 18, 2011, 12:21:28 PM
I'm glad we're finally airing this subject here.
It's long overdue.
I propose something along the lines of the Ulster Hurling Championships.
Keep the system as it is now, with 4 provincial championships, each arriving at a provincial winner who march on to the 'Preliminary' Quarterfinals.
Then you have the backdoor producing another 4 'Preliminary Quarterfinalists'.
After that, you reduce these 8 down to 4, then 2. These two play a final elimination match.
The winner then qualifys to play automatic qualifiers Offaly in the All Ireland Final, the week after an Offaly legend calls the players disinterested and undisciplined.
That'd be great.
Quote from: PAULD123 on July 18, 2011, 12:48:10 PM
There was a suggestion made to me that the four provincial winners play a mini-round robin in this time and the top two go straight to the semis, with the other two joining last round of qualifiers in a quarter final scenario to decide the other two semi-finalists.
I have been banging on about this for years, glad to see PaulD outline the logical way it should be ran to protect the status of the provincial champions and not lead to the current situation were winning it is almost an irrelevance in terms of the AI. Also only 2 backdoor teams will have a chance to compete in the quarter finals which is proper order.
Like the idea of the four Provincial Winners playing Group matches with top 2 getting Semi-Final Spots
and bottom 2 playing the two teams that emerge from qualifiers in Quarter-Finals. Would give reward to
Provincial Winners insofar as they get 3 (or 6) meaningful matches against quality opposition whilst
qualifiers are played and could see this system work in football at least!
As for hurling, would Galway and Antrim merit getting an automatic QF for picking up their Provincial titles over
Dublin and Waterford (though both well beaten in their Provincial finals, they have bounced back in qualifiers).
Of course there is option of leaving them remain in Leinster and instead of playing out Munster and Leinster finals,
allow finalists of both to playing Group matches (in same way as above) with added spice of those Provincial finals
being played when they clash in their group. Again, top 2 get SF slot and bottom 2 play QF against 2 that
emerge from qualifiers.
Think we have something here to make bring back importance of Provincials (as well as making back door harder)!
I have to say I despise the current system and would prefer a return to straight knock out over it ( not that it's ideal either) but I'd imagine it won't change in the foreseeable future. That said I liked Mickey Hartes idea a few years back of the provincial winners playing each other in the quarter finals with the losers dropping into the qualifiers and the winners meeting each other in the semis where the process would repeat. It would have the effect of making the qualifiers a much longer route than the direct route and would ensure at least one front door team in the AI final.
Last year 6 teams were beaten only once in the championship. Of those 6 teams 5 didnt even make the AI semi finals. For me that devalues not only the provinicial titles but the AI as a whole. Under Hartes idea, the only game you could lose and not get a second bite at the cherry in is the AI final.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 27, 2011, 05:44:48 AM
I have to say I despise the current system and would prefer a return to straight knock out over it ( not that it's ideal either) but I'd imagine it won't change in the foreseeable future. That said I liked Mickey Hartes idea a few years back of the provincial winners playing each other in the quarter finals with the losers dropping into the qualifiers and the winners meeting each other in the semis where the process would repeat. It would have the effect of making the qualifiers a much longer route than the direct route and would ensure at least one front door team in the AI final.
Last year 6 teams were beaten only once in the championship. Of those 6 teams 5 didnt even make the AI semi finals. For me that devalues not only the provinicial titles but the AI as a whole. Under Hartes idea, the only game you could lose and not get a second bite at the cherry in is the AI final.
Spot on. I think its time this change was made. Every team gets a second chance then and aren't punished for winning their province.
For the umpeenth time ... Micky Harte's (and Breheny's) daft idea was blown out of the water at Congress 2010 and there is little or no interest in it.
Micky seemed to be using it to divert attention away from the fact that he hadnt freshened up his own team last year ( took Donegal to make him do it this year... possibly to our cost next Sat) .
Havent heard him complain to much about the current system this year ;)
The Provincial Championships are separate competitions from the All Ireland ... only relationship between the 2 is that the Round you enter the All Ireland Championship is determined by how you do in the Provincial.
Quote from: nrico2006 on July 27, 2011, 08:22:01 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 27, 2011, 05:44:48 AM
I have to say I despise the current system and would prefer a return to straight knock out over it ( not that it's ideal either) but I'd imagine it won't change in the foreseeable future. That said I liked Mickey Hartes idea a few years back of the provincial winners playing each other in the quarter finals with the losers dropping into the qualifiers and the winners meeting each other in the semis where the process would repeat. It would have the effect of making the qualifiers a much longer route than the direct route and would ensure at least one front door team in the AI final.
Last year 6 teams were beaten only once in the championship. Of those 6 teams 5 didnt even make the AI semi finals. For me that devalues not only the provinicial titles but the AI as a whole. Under Hartes idea, the only game you could lose and not get a second bite at the cherry in is the AI final.
Spot on. I think its time this change was made. Every team gets a second chance then and aren't punished for winning their province.
This is the bull that gets on my wick.
Every team gets ONE CHANCE to win their province. After they finish with their provincial championship, every team gets ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland. Its amazing how many people can't get this simple concept. Its absolutely fair.
The one anomaly I'm not all that keen on under the GAA system (that has always been there) is the different number of counties in each province. But the majority want to keep a provincial system, in which case I believe the current system is a very good one and a very fair one.
Its just moaners and complainers love to blame the system rather than their own inepitude when their team exits the championship.
Quote from: Hound on July 27, 2011, 08:49:19 AM
Quote from: nrico2006 on July 27, 2011, 08:22:01 AM
Quote from: David McKeown on July 27, 2011, 05:44:48 AM
I have to say I despise the current system and would prefer a return to straight knock out over it ( not that it's ideal either) but I'd imagine it won't change in the foreseeable future. That said I liked Mickey Hartes idea a few years back of the provincial winners playing each other in the quarter finals with the losers dropping into the qualifiers and the winners meeting each other in the semis where the process would repeat. It would have the effect of making the qualifiers a much longer route than the direct route and would ensure at least one front door team in the AI final.
Last year 6 teams were beaten only once in the championship. Of those 6 teams 5 didnt even make the AI semi finals. For me that devalues not only the provinicial titles but the AI as a whole. Under Hartes idea, the only game you could lose and not get a second bite at the cherry in is the AI final.
Spot on. I think its time this change was made. Every team gets a second chance then and aren't punished for winning their province.
This is the bull that gets on my wick.
Every team gets ONE CHANCE to win their province. After they finish with their provincial championship, every team gets ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland. Its amazing how many people can't get this simple concept. Its absolutely fair.
The one anomaly I'm not all that keen on under the GAA system (that has always been there) is the different number of counties in each province. But the majority want to keep a provincial system, in which case I believe the current system is a very good one and a very fair one.
Its just moaners and complainers love to blame the system rather than their own inepitude when their team exits the championship.
Rubbish that the current system is fair. Off the top of my head at least four things make it unfair.
1. Teams enter it at completely different rounds. Win the preliminary round in Ulster then the quarter final and then lose the semi final and you enter the qualifiers at round 2. Lose your first match in Munster and you can be in the same round.
2. Beaten provincial finalists can sometimes have as little as 6 days to recover from a loss when it suits the GAA for TV reasons. Whilst others can have up to 4 weeks to get over that defeat.
3. Provincial winners can have up to 6 weeks off and can face a team coming off a run of only 2 games in 2 weeks. Hardly fair to expect teams to be at peak condition in such a scenario.
4. When it suits the GAA they change the rules as to who can meet who. Like this year changing the rule that Mayo couldn't draw the winners of Tyrone/Roscommon therefore increasing Mayo's chances of drawing Kildare, Cork or Limerick rather than waiting to the result of Tyrone v Roscommon was known.
The idea that the provincial competitions are different to the AI is crap, if you want it that way then run off the provincial competitions and then put all 32/33 teams in a hat and draw them out. Teams are being punished for doing well in devalued provincial competitions and it is not a fair system.
The other thing that annoys me is this fantasy land that people live in about how the provincial competitions are still as important as ever they were because some counties get great joy from winning them. That's horse crap. A lot of counties no longer give a monkeys about them so you are in essence now competiting in a competition that not every who has entered wants to win. The win is therefore by definition devalued IMO. Moreover the bite is gone from a lot of provincial championship games. I've lost count of the number of times I have walked out of Armagh games in Ulster and it no longer annoys me that we lost. 11 years ago it used to drive me crazy. Likewise I don't care if we lift Ulster because I know that not every team in Ulster was going balls out to win it.
The system has to change and whilst Mickeys idea isn't perfect it's better than anything else I have heard yet.
The current system penalises provincial winners: Simple fact.
The reason Mickey Harte isn't saying anything about it at the minute (or at least no one is printing anything he's saying about it at the minute) is because... his team aren't Provincial Champs! D'oh!
Re David McKeown's point 4 - will you cop on please.
It's been the rule for a few years that Provincial Finalists can't meet in the Quarters. If they waited for the Ros/Tyrone game before making the draw then ALL the Quaret finals would have to be postponed and out the window goes the fixtures calendar drawn up last Winter.
As for different amount of Counties in each Province .. .you can blame the Brits for that ... they divided Ireland into Counties :D :D
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 27, 2011, 04:38:46 PM
The current system penalises provincial winners: Simple fact.
The reason Mickey Harte isn't saying anything about it at the minute (or at least no one is printing anything he's saying about it at the minute) is because... his team aren't Provincial Champs! D'oh!
Getting into the All Ireland Quarter final is being penalised :o :o I'd expect better from you Fear.
So Micky is just another oul GAA hypocrite then ::) DOH !!
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 04:42:26 PM
Re David McKeown's point 4 - will you cop on please.
It's been the rule for a few years that Provincial Finalists can't meet in the Quarters. If they waited for the Ros/Tyrone game before making the draw then ALL the Quaret finals would have to be postponed and out the window goes the fixtures calendar drawn up last Winter.
As for different amount of Counties in each Province .. .you can blame the Brits for that ... they divided Ireland into Counties :D :D
In all fairness let the quarter finals be moved. If the GAA draws up a calendar that doesn't allow for a draw in games in round 2 of the qualifiers then it deserved to be thrown slightly out if whack. Dublin have ended up being the ones penalised. Longer to wait for their quarterfinal and a shorter wait for any potential semi final.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 04:44:10 PM
Getting into the All Ireland Quarter final is being penalised :o :o I'd expect better from you Fear.
So Micky is just another oul GAA hypocrite then ::) DOH !!
Of the approximately 34 teams that participate in the Championship, the only 4 teams
not to have a second chance are the 4 provincial winners, the
ONLY 4!
And Mickey's opinion hasn't changed, not by one iota, just the
reporting of it has.
Something of an unsuccessful spin there Rossfan, on BOTH counts! ;)
One chance to win your provincial championship. One chance to win the All-Ireland.
People will say that provincial champions are disadvantaged in a lot of cases by an extended break but the teams that some through the qualifiers will be more susceptible to injuries and fatigue. Giving provincial champions home advantage in the quarters is something that should be looked into (or at least giving them the option of nominating a venue if their home ground isn't suitable) but the idea championed by Harte is a non-runner.
Quote from: Donnellys Hollow on July 27, 2011, 05:36:06 PM
One chance to win the All-Ireland.
...If, and only IF, you win your provincial championship.
Ergo, penalised for being a winner. No coincidence that AI winners recently are qualifiers. *
*
Edit: the last 3 AI winners have come from the Qualifiers, and 5 out of the last 6.
Scrap the current league system.
Play the provincials off on a league basis.
Have a champions league format to the championship.
8 groups of 4 teams. (may need a playoff between kilkenny/london to qualify). 3 games, 1 home, 1 away and 1 neutral.
Top 2 go through to last 16 then straight knock out.
3rd place teams play off for a tommy murphy style competition.
sorted.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 04:42:26 PM
As for different amount of Counties in each Province .. .you can blame the Brits for that ... they divided Ireland into Counties :D :D
Why don't we go back before this and revive the ancient provincal structure. As province, as Gaeilge, is
cuige, we should remember that this means one fifth - there were five old provinces - Meath being the extra one comprising of modern Meath and Westmeath. Men of Leinster cut them off. Lets have fifth finals. ;)
Its probably no wilder than reviving Oriel or Breffni ;D
Quote from: Hound on July 27, 2011, 08:49:19 AM
Spot on. I think its time this change was made. Every team gets a second chance then and aren't punished for winning their province.
This is the bull that gets on my wick.
Every team gets ONE CHANCE to win their province. After they finish with their provincial championship, every team gets ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland. Its amazing how many people can't get this simple concept. Its absolutely fair.The one anomaly I'm not all that keen on under the GAA system (that has always been there) is the different number of counties in each province. But the majority want to keep a provincial system, in which case I believe the current system is a very good one and a very fair one.
Its just moaners and complainers love to blame the system rather than their own inepitude when their team exits the championship.
[/quote]
That is one interpretation.
It is absolutely true to say that some teams get two chances to lose in the All Ireland series, while others get one. It is also true to say that all teams get only one chance to lose in their provincial championship.
I am not particularly bothered either way but it is twisting things dramatically to try to suggest that every team only gets one chance to win the All-Ireland Championship by adding
after they finish with their provincial Championships as if it is an unconnected competition.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 27, 2011, 05:13:09 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 04:44:10 PM
Getting into the All Ireland Quarter final is being penalised :o :o I'd expect better from you Fear.
So Micky is just another oul GAA hypocrite then ::) DOH !!
Of the approximately 34 teams that participate in the Championship, the only 4 teams not to have a second chance are the 4 provincial winners, the ONLY 4!
And Mickey's opinion hasn't changed, not by one iota, just the reporting of it has.
Something of an unsuccessful spin there Rossfan, on BOTH counts! ;)
He is quoted in this week's Ros Herald saying the All Ireland Quarter Final is where you want to be. He doesnt mind whether his team qualifies by the Provincial or the Qualifier route.
Spin that buckeen .
Nobody gets a second chance... if you're knocked out of the All Ireland Championship you're OU bloody T.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 09:17:00 PM
He is quoted in this week's Ros Herald saying the All Ireland Quarter Final is where you want to be. He doesnt mind whether his team qualifies by the Provincial or the Qualifier route.
Spin that buckeen .
Changing the subject, that's an answer to a totally different question; of course he want's to be there, D'oh! His problem is with the inherent unfairness of the system regarding provincial champs.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 09:17:00 PM
Nobody gets a second chance... if you're knocked out of the All Ireland Championship you're OU bloody T.
You did FFS, in this year of 2011, and so did we! That's why the fecking Qualifiers were introduced: TO GIVE TEAMS
A SECOND CHANCE IN THE CHAMPIONSHIP!
There's delusion, and then there are those who believe that the current system can't be improved.
Fear , there are none so blind as those with good eyes who refuse to see ( or for an intelligent man you're shockin thick :D)
Roscommon lost in the CONNACHT CHAMPIONSHIP ( Tyrone can't play in that)
Tyrone lost in the ULSTER CHAMPIONSHIP ( Ros can't play in that)
We are meeting Saturday in the ALL IRELAND CHAMPIONSHIP ( in which both Counties play every year since 2001 - up to that you could only play in the AI if you were a Provincial Champion.
Micky only had a problem with Provincial Champions been beaten by "back door" teams in the years when Tyrone won Ulster and then lost in the AI Championship.
Meanwhile Breheny is only an eejit.
One question for you Rossfan: were the Qualifiers introduced so that the beaten team would get a second chance in their respective provincial championship?
If you can answer that honestly and truthfully I do believe you cannot help yourself but to see the blinding fecking light! :D
A little clue: the answer cannot in any way, shape or form be 'Yes'! ;)
I presume you were educated by Jesuits Fear as you are trying to tie me into some diabolical knot.
The Qualifiers were introduced to help teams get out of the provincial strait jackets.
I believe the fact that Ulster had the 3 top teams in Ireland in the early 90s 2 of whom couldnt make it to the National Championship opened peoples' eyes to the daftness of the then current system.
The only person to consistently keep referring to "secondchance" ( his pronunciation) is Breheny. nuff said.
There may indeed be a better system somewhere than the current one .... so let the GAA investigate thoroughly and see what they might come up with.
32 county open draw with no back door. Hows that for fair and every game will have 2 teams going flat out to win.
Otherwise scrap the preliminary round in Ulster and parachute Armagh into Connacht so we can enjoy handy runs to the AIQF too.
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
It is absolutely true to say that some teams get two chances to lose in the All Ireland series, while others get one. It is also true to say that all teams get only one chance to lose in their provincial championship.
I am not particularly bothered either way but it is twisting things dramatically to try to suggest that every team only gets one chance to win the All-Ireland Championship by adding after they finish with their provincial Championships as if it is an unconnected competition.
Its not twisting things at all. Its an indisputable fact that every team gets one chance to win their province, and then once chance to win the All Ireland.
They are not unconnected competitions, but they are separate competitions (which is as obvious as the nose on your face, given you don't have to win your province to win an All Ireland).
I have proposed this before and I am posting it again because I really think this is a good solution, I'd like to hear if other people agree. I have have a proposal that preserves provincial championships, restore's their importance and at the same time makes the All-Ireland draw much fairer.
My main concern is that there is less and less interest in the provincial competitions. If you lose a final you only go back one step (round 4) and so only have to win one extra game to get to the quarter final like the team that beat you. So Cork and Kerry don't care too much about winning Munster, and Dublin wouldn't have shed a tear if Kildare had beat them. Secondly they take so long to run that once a team is out their fans have well lost neutral interest by the time the final comes around
So my proposal is:
I think we should have more football. Instead of spacing the provincial championships one game a week I think more should be run at once. I think the provincial championship and the All-Ireland should be separate competitions. Here is how I think it should work:
1) Starting May the provincial championships are run one week after another, quarters, semis, then final (maybe every fortnight to allow for replays) but all teams in a round play the same weekend. The winner gets an automatic bye into the All-Ireland quarter-finals (as happens now)
2) Here is the big difference - Starting June, the All-Ireland series (apart from the four provincial winners) should now be played as a totally open-draw knock-out system for the remaining 28-29 teams, with the provincial champions joining in quarter final stage.
This is different because everyone enters the "qualifier" stage at the same time and the same level. It effectively makes the provincial championship a separate competition with a big incentive for winning. Also it stops this idea of virtually guaranteeing a couple of early easy qualifying games because all teams would be available in the open draw.
The idea is to change the system to improve it but without doing anything too drastic that would be too big a risk to consistency of the game. I think the modifications above improve the situation by putting increased focus on provincial championships, making it fairer for all, separating the competitions and giving us more football to enjoy.
The main issue I'd have with this is that provincial winners have to wait a very long time before their first AI game. They will then be against a team with 3-5 games under their belt.
Quote from: Rossfan on July 27, 2011, 11:09:31 PM
I presume you were educated by Jesuits Fear as you are trying to tie me into some diabolical knot.
The Qualifiers were introduced to help teams get out of the provincial strait jackets.
Jeez Ross, I put a very simple question to you that needed only a 'Yes ' or 'No', and you then bang on about Jesuits, knots and straitjackets FFS! 'Tis no wonder your mind is in such a fog over the issue! ;)
The myth that the Provincials are somehow separate from the main event are just that: a fecking MYTH! The ultimate end game of the Provincials has
always been the All-Ireland, always!
There's no denying, however, that for some counties the Provincials mean a lot more than for other counties; but that's changes nothing except that it means more for those specific counties.
I was actually happy that we were dumped out of the Ulster this year... because the system is so seriously fecked-up as it's currently constituted that is actually profits a team to be beaten early on. How seriously screwball is that?
Now, let me ask you this
simple question again: were the Qualifiers introduced so that the beaten team would get a second chance in their respective
provincial championship?
A Fhear , I will debate/discuss things as I see fit ... NOT answer questions to your agenda.
You think the present system is bad , I don't.
I pointed out a few facts ... you ( being from the North :P where this comes naturally) won't accept anything that doesn't conform to your already formed belief.
90% of the GAA agree with me , 10% agree with you.
I like the present format as it keeps the old traditional Provincial championships ( diluted in overall importance maybe but is that any big problem?) with their local rivalries etc , gives teams a chance to win silverware who arent good enough to win a National title.
Also ensures that the best teams get a shot at a National Title even if the top 2 or 3 are in the one Province.
Also helps a team with potential to get some more Championship games ato enable them to improve.
Wexford,Limerick,Sligo,Westmeath ,Fermanagh have all had good days in the Noughties as a result of the present "dual carriageway" system of Provincial and Qualifiers.
And what's so special about Provincial Champions that they have to be cossetted from the real world? They've won their Province ... let's see how they shape up Nationally.
I will accept anything Ross, that's logical, not based on some fanciful whim of nostalgia! ;)
You can't let go of the tradition, fair enough. But to pretend that the AI and the Provincials are two totally separate competitions is pure disingenuous and deluded bunkum: if that were the case it would not be compulsory to enter the AI series via the Provincials; but that is the case.
And your inability to answer a simple question just exposes the very shaky foundations of your 'logic', I fear! 8)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 28, 2011, 03:05:49 PM
to pretend that the AI and the Provincials are two totally separate competitions is pure disingenuous and deluded bunkum: i
You are right ..... :-*
They are in fact FIVE separate competitions
Game set and match to me !!!! ;D
Yep Ross, if you think that a particular team can play in five distinct competitions it's game, set and match to you. It sure is! :D
Quote from: Hound on July 28, 2011, 08:54:57 AM
Quote from: muppet on July 27, 2011, 08:59:46 PM
It is absolutely true to say that some teams get two chances to lose in the All Ireland series, while others get one. It is also true to say that all teams get only one chance to lose in their provincial championship.
I am not particularly bothered either way but it is twisting things dramatically to try to suggest that every team only gets one chance to win the All-Ireland Championship by adding after they finish with their provincial Championships as if it is an unconnected competition.
Its not twisting things at all. Its an indisputable fact that every team gets one chance to win their province, and then once chance to win the All Ireland.
They are not unconnected competitions, but they are separate competitions (which is as obvious as the nose on your face, given you don't have to win your province to win an All Ireland).
The argument that they are separate competitions doesn't stand up. Your counties fixtures in one are completely dependent on your results in the other.
Either way the following statement applies: 4 counties can lose no game en route to Sam Maguire while the others can one.
QuoteThe main issue I'd have with this is that provincial winners have to wait a very long time before their first AI game.
They will then be against a team with 3-5 games under their belt.
And strangely enough playing 3 or 4 tough competitive games is always cited as the main reason why Ulster teams have historically not done well in winning All Irelands. Yet when teams get a run of games together in the qualifiers then they are primed for All Ireland success , it would confuse Confusius
Perhaps not all games in the Qualifiers could rightly be described as 'tough competitive games' KM! (No disrespect intended, well, not much ;))
Think of it more as momentum building (in the Qualifiers), as opposed to attritional, though that's over-simplifying it too I'd say.
Quote from: David McKeown on July 27, 2011, 04:24:20 PM
1. Teams enter it at completely different rounds. Win the preliminary round in Ulster then the quarter final and then lose the semi final and you enter the qualifiers at round 2. Lose your first match in Munster and you can be in the same round.
2. Beaten provincial finalists can sometimes have as little as 6 days to recover from a loss when it suits the GAA for TV reasons. Whilst others can have up to 4 weeks to get over that defeat.
3. Provincial winners can have up to 6 weeks off and can face a team coming off a run of only 2 games in 2 weeks. Hardly fair to expect teams to be at peak condition in such a scenario.
On the above
1) it is not a fair system but while the provincial councils hold any power one that is unlikely to change any time soon.
2 & 3) Should be easily sorted. No reason why provincial championships cannot be played off in 6 weeks. Does there need to be only 1 game in Ulster every week? If the Ulster council are worried about people who go to every game they could have games on a Sat night and Sunday.
I can't believe that this thread got to page four before anyone mentioned the main reason why change is so difficult to execute - the provincial councils. They depend on their competitions for revenue, and they protect them ferociously. For a completely different reason - club games - I agree that the provincial competitions should be run off a lot quicker. Start them all in May, have them all done by the middle of June. Play the qualifiers thick and fast, and those who win games always get the optimum break - the system is not built to protect the losers, as it is now.
That way the clubs get August/September/October to themselves, and you don't have this farce now where club teams are playing some championship in May and then breaking until late July. It's also a fairer system, though TV wouldn't go for it as much.
The crucial thing here is that the provincial winners get the ideal 2/3 week break until their quarter final, while the qualifiers have to come through a much more gruelling ordeal with no break. Every losing team gets two weeks break, draws if they occur have to be either played to a finish or else the sides have to accept that the loser will be out six days later - if they can agree to midweek then great, if not then so be it. (Midweek is realistic for Offaly vs Laois in Portlaoise, it's not for Longford vs Wexford in Pearse Park).
Here's how my theoretical schedule would work, based on this year's calendar. I haven't tried to integrate hurling yet, but it could be done.
W/E 1st May 1 x Ulster Prelim, 3 x Leinster Prelim, 3 x Connacht QF
W/E 8th May 2 x Ulster QF, 2 x Munster QF, 1 x Leinster QF (Non prelim teams)
W/E 15th May 2 x Ulster QF, 3 x Leinster QF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 22nd May 1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Munster SF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 29th May 1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Leinster SF, Qualifiers Round 1
W/E 5th June 5 x Qualifiers Round 2 (no 6 day turnaround for losers of SFs the previous week), Connacht Final
W/E 12th June 3 x Qualifiers Round 2, Munster Final, Ulster Final, Leinster Final
W/E 19th June Qualifiers Round 3
W/E 26th June Qualifiers Round 4
W/E 3rd July AI Quarter Finals
W/E 17th July 1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 24th July 1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 7th August AI Final
If we put this in place, then you could also try to time most club championships to start in Mid July. Have a big nationwide marketing campaign - you've seen the county players, now go see them down at your local field. Club players till get some summer time, and they can take holidays in June if they want, when club leagues would be played.
I do think we have to keep the provinces - just because a handful of counties aren't interested doesn't mean we bin them for everyone. It's a realistic piece of silverware for most counties, whereas the All Ireland is out of reach for a lot of them. The problem is things like the Ulster council having one game per week, Connacht taking three months to play six games, and Munster flying through it early so as not to steal any thunder from their hurling championship.
Quote from: muppet on July 28, 2011, 06:56:54 PM
The argument that they are separate competitions doesn't stand up. Your counties fixtures in one are completely dependent on your results in the other.
Either way the following statement applies: 4 counties can lose no game en route to Sam Maguire while the others can one.
Fecks sake muppet. They are connected, as I said, as the the better you do in the provincials, the later you enter the All Ireland competition.
I'm sorry for anyone who is too blind to see that you are not playing for Sam Maguire when you are still in your provincial championship (you are playing for your provincial championship), and once you do enter the All Ireland series, you only get once chance regardless of how you did in the provinces.
QuoteAnd strangely enough playing 3 or 4 tough competitive games is always cited as the main reason why Ulster teams have historically not done well in winning All Irelands. Yet when teams get a run of games together in the qualifiers then they are primed for All Ireland success , it would confuse Confusius
Exactly.
And very little mention of all the good a run in the qualifiers did Down and Armagh this year!
No point in arguing with a someone who thinks the Provincial Championship is on a par with the All-Ireland!
Anyways, good effort above there Lone Shark. That's the kind of (lateral) thinking that'll extract us from the current disastrous excuse for an equitable competition, though I wouldn't be so deferential towards the Provincial Councils - they'll have to move into modernity like the rest of the Association... eventually!
The current system is very unfair on counties that don't win their province.
Here's hoping that run continues next weekend.
Serious miracles going on this weekend considering the "huge disadvantage" the poor oul provincial champions have ;)
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on July 27, 2011, 04:38:46 PM
The current system penalises provincial winners: Simple fact.
The reason Mickey Harte isn't saying anything about it at the minute (or at least no one is printing anything he's saying about it at the minute) is because... his team aren't Provincial Champs! D'oh!
Quote from: Lone Shark on July 29, 2011, 12:08:21 AM
I can't believe that this thread got to page four before anyone mentioned the main reason why change is so difficult to execute - the provincial councils. They depend on their competitions for revenue, and they protect them ferociously. For a completely different reason - club games - I agree that the provincial competitions should be run off a lot quicker. Start them all in May, have them all done by the middle of June. Play the qualifiers thick and fast, and those who win games always get the optimum break - the system is not built to protect the losers, as it is now.
That way the clubs get August/September/October to themselves, and you don't have this farce now where club teams are playing some championship in May and then breaking until late July. It's also a fairer system, though TV wouldn't go for it as much.
The crucial thing here is that the provincial winners get the ideal 2/3 week break until their quarter final, while the qualifiers have to come through a much more gruelling ordeal with no break. Every losing team gets two weeks break, draws if they occur have to be either played to a finish or else the sides have to accept that the loser will be out six days later - if they can agree to midweek then great, if not then so be it. (Midweek is realistic for Offaly vs Laois in Portlaoise, it's not for Longford vs Wexford in Pearse Park).
Here's how my theoretical schedule would work, based on this year's calendar. I haven't tried to integrate hurling yet, but it could be done.
W/E 1st May 1 x Ulster Prelim, 3 x Leinster Prelim, 3 x Connacht QF
W/E 8th May 2 x Ulster QF, 2 x Munster QF, 1 x Leinster QF (Non prelim teams)
W/E 15th May 2 x Ulster QF, 3 x Leinster QF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 22nd May 1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Munster SF, 1 x Connacht SF
W/E 29th May 1 x Ulster SF, 2 x Leinster SF, Qualifiers Round 1
W/E 5th June 5 x Qualifiers Round 2 (no 6 day turnaround for losers of SFs the previous week), Connacht Final
W/E 12th June 3 x Qualifiers Round 2, Munster Final, Ulster Final, Leinster Final
W/E 19th June Qualifiers Round 3
W/E 26th June Qualifiers Round 4
W/E 3rd July AI Quarter Finals
W/E 17th July 1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 24th July 1 x AI Semi Final
W/E 7th August AI Final
If we put this in place, then you could also try to time most club championships to start in Mid July. Have a big nationwide marketing campaign - you've seen the county players, now go see them down at your local field. Club players till get some summer time, and they can take holidays in June if they want, when club leagues would be played.
I do think we have to keep the provinces - just because a handful of counties aren't interested doesn't mean we bin them for everyone. It's a realistic piece of silverware for most counties, whereas the All Ireland is out of reach for a lot of them. The problem is things like the Ulster council having one game per week, Connacht taking three months to play six games, and Munster flying through it early so as not to steal any thunder from their hurling championship.
What happens if there is a draw in the qualifiers - penalty shoot out?
Replays are a curse for club games - not only in the 2 counties involved, but inevitably there a knock-on effect in other counties (eg the Armagh Wicklow draw impacted on Tyrone, Ros and Dublin)
Quote from: Rossfan on July 28, 2011, 02:50:16 PM
A Fhear , I will debate/discuss things as I see fit ... NOT answer questions to your agenda.
You think the present system is bad , I don't.
I pointed out a few facts ... you ( being from the North :P where this comes naturally) won't accept anything that doesn't conform to your already formed belief.
90% of the GAA agree with me , 10% agree with you.
I like the present format as it keeps the old traditional Provincial championships ( diluted in overall importance maybe but is that any big problem?) with their local rivalries etc , gives teams a chance to win silverware who arent good enough to win a National title.
Also ensures that the best teams get a shot at a National Title even if the top 2 or 3 are in the one Province.
Also helps a team with potential to get some more Championship games ato enable them to improve.
Wexford,Limerick,Sligo,Westmeath ,Fermanagh have all had good days in the Noughties as a result of the present "dual carriageway" system of Provincial and Qualifiers.
And what's so special about Provincial Champions that they have to be cossetted from the real world? They've won their Province ... let's see how they shape up Nationally.
people are fed up with the same tired old pairings. There would be far bigger interest if the same teams didn't play each other every year. Its just boring at this stage.
The GAA has to compete with other sports who vary their formats. Hanging on to the current outdated relic wont improve matters.
Quote from: mylestheslasher on August 01, 2011, 09:44:21 AM
What happens if there is a draw in the qualifiers - penalty shoot out?
Same as now - you play extra time, if it's still a draw. If that's still a draw after that, you have scope in rounds 1 and 2 for a replay the following weekend, if not, then you play it midweek. It's not ideal but the message to be borne in mind here is that these teams are the ones getting a second chance - they should appreciate any type of reprieve, rather than looking the gift horse in the mouth.
Alternatively you could do like happened with Armagh/Wicklow/Tyrone/Roscommon this year - it's no real disadvantage to delay one of the quarter finals.
So in a complete reversal of last year, all the provincial finalists made it through.
All that reactionary hot air for nothing.
Shock, horror. The irony is that this year, had Tyrone been champions of Ulster, they could probably have used the break. I think Mickey Harte has simply fallen into the same trap that many other great managers before him have. He held on to a great team just a little too long, and now it's a rebuilding job. Micko did the same with Kerry, but I don't think it'll be 11 years before we hear from Tyrone again.
Just like the old days all the provincal champions will be playing in the Semi finals & as a traditionalist i'm pleased with that.
Great day for the provinces
In 92 Donegal had to beat Derry, Dublin and Mayo to win the All Ireland. Just sayin.
92 Was a handy year to win your first All Ireland. Feck sake Pat Spillane was still playing
Quote from: Kerry Mike on August 06, 2011, 10:17:08 PM
92 Was a handy year to win your first All Ireland. Feck sake Pat Spillane was still playing
:D
Quote from: borderfox on August 06, 2011, 10:12:52 PM
In 92 Donegal had to beat Derry, Dublin and Mayo to win the All Ireland. Just sayin.
Almost the same last 4, Kerry replace Clare.
Quote from: ross4life on August 06, 2011, 10:19:02 PM
Quote from: borderfox on August 06, 2011, 10:12:52 PM
In 92 Donegal had to beat Derry, Dublin and Mayo to win the All Ireland. Just sayin.
Almost the same last 4, Kerry replace Clare.
I was at the semi final that year (Armagh minors were playin) Donegal beat Mayo in an atrocious match (13 -7 I think) we all thought Dublin would Annihilate Donegal afterwards. It never worked out that way though...