f**king scumbags
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316)
Scumbags alright. For every day like yesterday with McIlroy there is a whole summer of this shit.
Quote from: Forever Green on June 20, 2011, 10:42:32 PM
f**king scumbags
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316)
Welcome to "Orangefest" season. A real "tourist attraction" of a festival.
Just drove past on my way back from City Airport. Looks really bad.
Just hoping it all calms down soon and no innocent people get hurt. Feel sorry for the short strand surrounded by these inbred f**kers
Ah scumbags is right,seems like there are a few problems within Loyalism over in the East so a few flexing their muscles by turning on the Catholics in the Strand.Ha been happening since this state was formed and that enclave in the east always gets it,but they have been through it so many times before they will a match for them.Very worrying development.
Is it just me who finds it hard to believe that a group of 60 men get together and attack a group of houses without provocation?
I'm aware that we're dealing with the lowest form of human being here, but still.
I drove round the short strand around 8.30 and noticed a police presence but didn't see or hear anything going on. I also worked on Bryson Street for 4 or 5 years and never had any issues which makes it all the more annoying to see this shit return.
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:01:54 PM
Is it just me who finds it hard to believe that a group of 60 men get together and attack a group of houses without provocation?
I'm aware that we're dealing with the lowest form of human being here, but still.
I believe it. Bunch of cowardly bastards that are going out to try and kill some innocent fenian. They have done it plenty of times before without being provoked
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:01:54 PM
Is it just me who finds it hard to believe that a group of 60 men get together and attack a group of houses without provocation?
I'm aware that we're dealing with the lowest form of human being here, but still.
yes these people really are the PITTS!
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:01:54 PM
Is it just me who finds it hard to believe that a group of 60 men get together and attack a group of houses without provocation?
I'm aware that we're dealing with the lowest form of human being here, but still.
Wise up and read your history books.
Show me where I can get these history books Glens Abu and I gladly will.
It's not difficult for anyone of influence to rabble rouse when they've got a cause that appeals to the people. Call me out of touch, but I don't believe it would be that easy to assemble a riot group of 60 without something fresh in the mind to call upon.
Trust me wobbler I was in the Short Strand at the height of the trouble during the early Noughties and it wasn't a safe place to be. There were daily attacks on houses from across the way and while there was a certain amount of fighting back, trust me the aggression was directed from one source. Dangerous place altogether.
Their mates, opps the PSNI, will soon put a stop to it all.
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:15:37 PM
Show me where I can get these history books Glens Abu and I gladly will.
It's not difficult for anyone of influence to rabble rouse when they've got a cause that appeals to the people. Call me out of touch, but I don't believe it would be that easy to assemble a riot group of 60 without something fresh in the mind to call upon.
These same breed threw pipe bomb/urine/fireworks/sectarian abuse at primary schoolgirls not many years ago. Never doubt how low these tramps can go. They need no provocation....Its just coming into their time of year and that's all there is to it.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 20, 2011, 11:20:35 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:15:37 PM
Show me where I can get these history books Glens Abu and I gladly will.
It's not difficult for anyone of influence to rabble rouse when they've got a cause that appeals to the people. Call me out of touch, but I don't believe it would be that easy to assemble a riot group of 60 without something fresh in the mind to call upon.
These same breed threw pipe bomb/urine/fireworks/sectarian abuse at primary schoolgirls not many years ago. Never doubt how low these tramps can go. They need no provocation....Its just coming into their time of year and that's all there is to it.
About covers it. Animals.
Quote from: Cold tea on June 20, 2011, 11:17:37 PM
Their mates, opps the PSNI, will soon put a stop to it all.
No they won't. From what I hear they just sat in their jeeps while the Short Strand was attacked ... probably wanted to finish their chips before they got cold
Anyone know what action the PSNI has taken?
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 20, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Anyone know what action the PSNI has taken?
Ordered pizza from Domino's.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 20, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Anyone know what action the PSNI has taken?
Currently trying to find a way to blame it all on the short residents
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 20, 2011, 11:24:08 PM
Anyone know what action the PSNI has taken?
They're reading throught their health and safety handouts (well, the one in the land rover that can read is slowly moving a gloved finger along the lines and repeating the contents to his/her colleagues) to see if they should bother doing the job they're handsomly paid for
Following it on Twitter at @Short_Strand
Apparently gunfire going off near St. Matthew's Chapel.
Quote from: ziggysego on June 21, 2011, 12:17:22 AM
Following it on Twitter at @Short_Strand
Apparently gunfire going off near St. Matthew's Chapel.
Jesus Christ. Hope all innocent people are safe. Sounds a bit familiar about gunfire at St Matthews
Quote from: red hander on June 20, 2011, 11:23:24 PM
Quote from: Cold tea on June 20, 2011, 11:17:37 PM
Their mates, opps the PSNI, will soon put a stop to it all.
No they won't. From what I hear they just sat in their jeeps while the Short Strand was attacked ... probably wanted to finish their chips before they got cold
You wouldn't hear much, though, since your head is stuck permanently up your arse.
I don't know what's been going on over in the strand / newtownards road recently. Neither does anyone else on this thread, I suspect, yet it doesn't stop people posting bigoted, blinkered bullshit. Depressing thread.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 07:22:12 AM
Quote from: red hander on June 20, 2011, 11:23:24 PM
Quote from: Cold tea on June 20, 2011, 11:17:37 PM
Their mates, opps the PSNI, will soon put a stop to it all.
No they won't. From what I hear they just sat in their jeeps while the Short Strand was attacked ... probably wanted to finish their chips before they got cold
You wouldn't hear much, though, since your head is stuck permanently up your arse.
I don't know what's been going on over in the strand / newtownards road recently. Neither does anyone else on this thread, I suspect, yet it doesn't stop people posting bigoted, blinkered bullshit. Depressing thread.
What is clear is that this violence began when up to one hundred loyalists converged on Short Strand from different sides, led by masked men in camoflage. Are you honestly going to deny/cast doubt that this was a large scale, pre-meditated attack by the UVF on the Short Strand?
EDIT: I notice the video report on the bbc website says that those "rioting" (not "attacking nationalist homes" apparently), were "youths". Not one person on the video looks like a "youth". They looked to me like grown men. Paramilitaries.
Seems there was gun fire and it was the PSNI shooting baton rounds at the Loyalist.
According to Alex Maskey the PSNI senior officers told him they injured a few of the rioters. Must have been Catholic PSNI men :D
Quote from: thewobbler on June 20, 2011, 11:15:37 PM
Show me where I can get these history books Glens Abu and I gladly will.
It's not difficult for anyone of influence to rabble rouse when they've got a cause that appeals to the people. Call me out of touch, but I don't believe it would be that easy to assemble a riot group of 60 without something fresh in the mind to call upon.
Go to any library,thats usually were you can get history books.
Loyalists trying to blame Nationalists on Nolan show this morning, all phoning in accusing the Fat boy of bias!! :D
Maskey said no, it was UVF flexing muscles - former BBC security advisor Brian Rowan on just now saying that he has spoken to LOYALIST sources who have confirmed the attack was orchestrated by loyalists and he has gone on to confirm pretty much all that Maskey had said.
Talkback.
Police spokesman now saying that loyalist/UVF gunmen fired 2 shots at police offficers (hitting landrovers) police treating it as attempted murder.
How f**king "loyal" they are!
I wonder what do the Unionist politicians and Presbyterian clergyman who blamed Nationalists have to say for themselves now as to who started "it" : -
Loyalist paramilitaries supposed to be on ceasefire organised major rioting in Belfast and opened fire on police, a senior officer has revealed.
Around 500 people were involved in violence at a sectarian interface in the east of the city last night.
Police said shots were fired from the republican Short Strand area, while loyalists also opened fire, but masked Ulster Volunteer Force members were blamed for starting the violence by attacking homes in the Catholic enclave.
Two men on the loyalist side of the divide suffered gunshot wounds to the leg, officers confirmed.
But bullet marks on police vehicles were blamed on the UVF and are being treated as the attempted murder of officers.
Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved
Mr McCrum said: "It started when a group of young men after nine o'clock last night made their way into the area of the Short Strand and did unquestionably attack homes in that community
Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/up-to-500-involved-in-worst-rioting-in-belfast-for-years-509822.html#ixzz1PukmOfG7
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 21, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
Talkback.
Police spokesman now saying that loyalist/UVF gunmen fired 2 shots at police offficers (hitting landrovers) police treating it as attempted murder.
How f**king "loyal" they are!
The grants for them keeping things quiet at the interfaces must be coming to an end.More funding needed.
Quote from: glens abu on June 21, 2011, 02:12:39 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 21, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
Talkback.
Police spokesman now saying that loyalist/UVF gunmen fired 2 shots at police offficers (hitting landrovers) police treating it as attempted murder.
How f**king "loyal" they are!
The grants for them keeping things quiet at the interfaces must be coming to an end.More funding needed.
East Belfast UVF leader flexing his muscles, reminds me somewhat of the attack on Bombay st, though this time the locals aren't for leaving!
I just read the Belfast Telegraph and their commentators say that this was orchestrated as an attack on the work of the Historical Enquiries Team as they believe that the HET are "dsicrminating" against Loyalists and are going after the UVF / UFF more than the provos.
Are they for real ?.
Personally, I think it's just the time of the year - it always kicks off at this time of year traditionally.
I said on Twitter I was disgusted at the attack last night and it must be marching season. Some wally, who I didn't know, saw my tweet. Started a war of words with me. I lost the bap for a few minutes, not like me. Eventually regained my composure and blocked him.
From SKY NEWS
Loyalist paramilitaries organised major rioting in Belfast and opened fire on police, a senior officer has revealed.
Two loyalists suffered gunshot wounds to the legs during the fighting, which saw around 500 people clash in the east of the city.
Police said shots were fired from the republican Short Strand area and that loyalists had responded.
Masked Ulster Volunteer Force members were blamed for sparking the violence when they attacked homes in the Catholic enclave.
Bullet marks on police vehicles are being treated as an attempt by UVF members to murder officers.
Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point members of the east Belfast UVF were involved.
"It would be a line of investigation to establish whether that was a co-ordinated and organised 'organisational' position.
"But at this point we are satisfied that at the very least members of east Belfast UVF were involved in organising the disorder."
The violence is being described as some of the most serious seen in Northern Ireland for years.
The UVF is one of the biggest loyalist paramilitary groups.
Despite observing a ceasefire and decommissioning its weapons, the group was held responsible for the murder of loyalist Bobby Moffett last year.
The recent appearance of UVF murals in east Belfast depicting masked and armed men was seen as a bid by the group to stamp its mark on the area.
Locals gave conflicting accounts of how the violence started but police insisted it was initiated by the UVF.
Petrol bombs, bricks and other missiles were hurled during the rioting, which comes ahead of the most tense period of the loyalist marching season.
At the height of the disturbances republicans fired six shots, while loyalists fired five shots.
Police say they will step up security in the area in the nights to come. end...................
Is that in bold just anti republican propaganda as i cant find any quotes of the police saying that?
Heard there were guns on both sides.
Quote from: ziggysego on June 21, 2011, 03:48:53 PM
I said on Twitter I was disgusted at the attack last night and it must be marching season. Some wally, who I didn't know, saw my tweet. Started a war of words with me. I lost the bap for a few minutes, not like me. Eventually regained my composure and blocked him.
Note to self. Start following Ziggy on Twitter to see him loose the bap again!
Shut up Orior :D
PSNI's press release.
http://www.psni.police.uk/disorder__east_belfast_21_06_11
Quote from: Rossfan on June 21, 2011, 01:49:02 PM
I wonder what do the Unionist politicians and Presbyterian clergyman who blamed Nationalists have to say for themselves now as to who started "it" : -
Loyalist paramilitaries supposed to be on ceasefire organised major rioting in Belfast and opened fire on police, a senior officer has revealed.
Around 500 people were involved in violence at a sectarian interface in the east of the city last night.
Police said shots were fired from the republican Short Strand area, while loyalists also opened fire, but masked Ulster Volunteer Force members were blamed for starting the violence by attacking homes in the Catholic enclave.
Two men on the loyalist side of the divide suffered gunshot wounds to the leg, officers confirmed.
But bullet marks on police vehicles were blamed on the UVF and are being treated as the attempted murder of officers.
Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved
Mr McCrum said: "It started when a group of young men after nine o'clock last night made their way into the area of the Short Strand and did unquestionably attack homes in that community
Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/up-to-500-involved-in-worst-rioting-in-belfast-for-years-509822.html#ixzz1PukmOfG7
Looks like the Short Strand has the better Marksmen. Bodes well for the Olympics!!!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 07:22:12 AM
Quote from: red hander on June 20, 2011, 11:23:24 PM
Quote from: Cold tea on June 20, 2011, 11:17:37 PM
Their mates, opps the PSNI, will soon put a stop to it all.
No they won't. From what I hear they just sat in their jeeps while the Short Strand was attacked ... probably wanted to finish their chips before they got cold
You wouldn't hear much, though, since your head is stuck permanently up your arse.
I don't know what's been going on over in the strand / newtownards road recently. Neither does anyone else on this thread, I suspect, yet it doesn't stop people posting bigoted, blinkered bullshit. Depressing thread.
Such modesty for admitting your ignorance about just one issue. As for people posting 'bigoted, blinkered bullshit' ... physician, heal thyself! BTW, any thread you poison would make even the most optimistic think about throwing the rope up
Good to see that the Queen's recent visit finally drew the line under the Troubles...
Quote from: AQMP on June 21, 2011, 05:03:19 PM
Good to see that the Queen's recent visit finally drew the line under the Troubles...
True.
There was some shite talked during those few days.
Quote from: LeoMc on June 21, 2011, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 21, 2011, 01:49:02 PM
I wonder what do the Unionist politicians and Presbyterian clergyman who blamed Nationalists have to say for themselves now as to who started "it" : -
Loyalist paramilitaries supposed to be on ceasefire organised major rioting in Belfast and opened fire on police, a senior officer has revealed.
Around 500 people were involved in violence at a sectarian interface in the east of the city last night.
Police said shots were fired from the republican Short Strand area, while loyalists also opened fire, but masked Ulster Volunteer Force members were blamed for starting the violence by attacking homes in the Catholic enclave.
Two men on the loyalist side of the divide suffered gunshot wounds to the leg, officers confirmed.
But bullet marks on police vehicles were blamed on the UVF and are being treated as the
attempted murder of officers.
Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved
Mr McCrum said: "It started when a group of young men after nine o'clock last night made their way into the area of the Short Strand and did unquestionably attack homes in that community
Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/up-to-500-involved-in-worst-rioting-in-belfast-for-years-509822.html#ixzz1PukmOfG7
Looks like the Short Strand has the better Marksmen. Bodes well for the Olympics!!!
PIRA, allegedly.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 21, 2011, 07:22:12 AM
Quote from: red hander on June 20, 2011, 11:23:24 PM
Quote from: Cold tea on June 20, 2011, 11:17:37 PM
Their mates, opps the PSNI, will soon put a stop to it all.
No they won't. From what I hear they just sat in their jeeps while the Short Strand was attacked ... probably wanted to finish their chips before they got cold
You wouldn't hear much, though, since your head is stuck permanently up your arse.
I don't know what's been going on over in the strand / newtownards road recently. Neither does anyone else on this thread, I suspect, yet it doesn't stop people posting bigoted, blinkered bullshit. Depressing thread.
Pardon my ignorance but where's the bigotry on this thread ???
Apparently there was a hundred or so masked men out drilling down some side street before the attacks happened last night.
I certainly do not envy the Short Strand residents when they go to bed tonight...
I take it a few of the posters will be hanging around the Short Strand tonight??
Would give the rest of the posters an unbiased account of the nights activities.
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
Probably because loyalist attacks traditionally escalate as the marching season kicks off. Hardly coincidence.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
Quote from: red hander on June 21, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Orior please retract your post; otherwise you are showing total and utter ignorance.
And the GAA are like the Orange Order?
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 21, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Orior please retract your post; otherwise you are showing total and utter ignorance.
The difference is that the GAA is a sporting organisation, the Orange Order is a hate filled sectarian mob. I would say everyone of my Northern Irish Protestant or Unionist friends would agree.
Quote from: Minder on June 21, 2011, 05:13:04 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 21, 2011, 04:13:35 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on June 21, 2011, 01:49:02 PM
I wonder what do the Unionist politicians and Presbyterian clergyman who blamed Nationalists have to say for themselves now as to who started "it" : -
Loyalist paramilitaries supposed to be on ceasefire organised major rioting in Belfast and opened fire on police, a senior officer has revealed.
Around 500 people were involved in violence at a sectarian interface in the east of the city last night.
Police said shots were fired from the republican Short Strand area, while loyalists also opened fire, but masked Ulster Volunteer Force members were blamed for starting the violence by attacking homes in the Catholic enclave.
Two men on the loyalist side of the divide suffered gunshot wounds to the leg, officers confirmed.
But bullet marks on police vehicles were blamed on the UVF and are being treated as the
attempted murder of officers.
Chief Superintendent Alan McCrum said: "We believe at this point that members of the east Belfast UVF were involved
Mr McCrum said: "It started when a group of young men after nine o'clock last night made their way into the area of the Short Strand and did unquestionably attack homes in that community
Read more: http://irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/up-to-500-involved-in-worst-rioting-in-belfast-for-years-509822.html#ixzz1PukmOfG7
Looks like the Short Strand has the better Marksmen. Bodes well for the Olympics!!!
PIRA, allegedly.
I wood say it will be pinned on the dissidents, as we all know the IRA dont exist anymore.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
And the GAA are like the Orange Order?
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
And the GAA are like the Orange Order?
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
So you are saying that it IS a coincidence that these loyalist attacks traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
And the GAA are like the Orange Order?
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
Where was anyone being bigoted? All they are saying is that this intimidation of Catholics is happening when the marching season is starting which is hardly a coincidence
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 21, 2011, 02:56:59 PM
Quote from: glens abu on June 21, 2011, 02:12:39 PM
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 21, 2011, 12:28:43 PM
Talkback.
Police spokesman now saying that loyalist/UVF gunmen fired 2 shots at police offficers (hitting landrovers) police treating it as attempted murder.
How f**king "loyal" they are!
The grants for them keeping things quiet at the interfaces must be coming to an end.More funding needed.
East Belfast UVF leader flexing his muscles, reminds me somewhat of the attack on Bombay st, though this time the locals aren't for leaving!
Yip losing money and just had their bar closed by assets recovery.Total scum
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 21, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Orior please retract your post; otherwise you are showing total and utter ignorance.
No way, Jose.
1) It was not meant to be taken literally
2) Why exactly did the Orangemen protest outside Harryville church in Ballymena?
3) In what way are loyalists different from Orangemen?
4) Is it not true that Orangemen believe that the pope is the anti-christ, and they protested about his visit to Britain.
5) Go back to 1.
Ding a Ling round two
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 21, 2011, 05:17:22 PM
I take it a few of the posters will be hanging around the Short Strand tonight??
Would give the rest of the posters an unbiased account of the nights activities.
It was quiet enough when I drove home through it this evening.
Why is there never a webcam when you need one!
Short Strand under attack again tonight according to twitter.
So, arrests galore then?
Few on the spot fines for catholics pissing themselves in public!
Quote from: Orior on June 21, 2011, 09:52:58 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 21, 2011, 05:17:22 PM
I take it a few of the posters will be hanging around the Short Strand tonight??
Would give the rest of the posters an unbiased account of the nights activities.
It was quiet enough when I drove home through it this evening.
Why is there never a webcam when you need one!
Was going to head over after training but couldn't be bother, managed to spot the police being very interested in things on the bottom of the Donegal Rd. A few Landrovers about but no trouble. Seems they may think that some of this stuff spreads to other interface areas.
Although in fairness Donegal/Broadway Road was never really a interface area when I grew up
Twitter now reporting SS residents are well back from the interface and loyalists are attacking the PSNI...
BTW, did anyone see Stormont today on BBC2 there? Mr Maskey handled it quite well I thought?
Its often said that both sides are as bad as each other in the six. Are they? When was the last time a sizeeable nationalist mob went attacking our unionist neighbours. In short these people may as well be in some slum in England and there they would find their brand of britishness. Sad stuff.
I take it there is more "passive policing" tonight and the loyalists are getting the run of the place again?
I assume the police will be releasing pictures of loyalist rioters like they did in Ardoyne...
Photographer shot
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13869210 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13869210)
water cannon on standby
(http://desmond.yfrog.com/Himg740/scaled.php?tn=0&server=740&filename=8dnx.jpg&xsize=640&ysize=640)
Quote from: Forever Green on June 22, 2011, 12:20:39 AM
Photographer shot
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13869210 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13869210)
Police are advising the media to get out of East Belfast, too dangerous for them.
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 12:44:13 AM
Quote from: Forever Green on June 22, 2011, 12:20:39 AM
Photographer shot
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13869210 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13869210)
Police are advising the media to get out of East Belfast, too dangerous for them.
Brilliant advertisement for Belfast
Quote from: Tony Baloney on June 22, 2011, 12:12:56 AM
I take it there is more "passive policing" tonight and the loyalists are getting the run of the place again?
I assume the police will be releasing pictures of loyalist rioters like they did in Ardoyne...
In situations like this why is it always pictures of nationalists (Celtic tops etc) that appear in the papers?
So me and a couple of foreigners are thinking of going up on the ninth and tenth of July to have a look at Belfast and the Giants Causeway etc. Is it safe to do so at this time of year?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 20, 2011, 10:56:00 PM
Quote from: Forever Green on June 20, 2011, 10:42:32 PM
f**king scumbags
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13851316)
Welcome to "Orangefest" season. A real "tourist attraction" of a festival.
Dirty orange bastards....There will never be peace when that scum is about!!!
Quote from: new devil on June 22, 2011, 08:40:40 AM
Dirty orange b**tards....There will never be peace when that scum is about!!!
Are you advocating extermination or expulsion?
Neither..Just saying there will never be peace
Loyalists attempting to assert 'authority' over the catholic population again, for many in the loyalist community they just cannot stomach the fact that nationalists are on an equal footing nowadays, sadly this view will exist for a long long time.
Even from news coverage there seems to be a lot of low lifes in and around this area. Crime is probably high on the agenda aswell as drugs so it is obvious that a riot is going to be good craic. Add into the mix the religious and political hatred and the whole situation has a massive potential to escalate. It is clear the loyalist side are causing the majority of the friction. A PUP guy was on the news last night claiming they were isolated from the whole peace process.Well he has only to look at the behaviour of them over the past two nights to know why. If they felt isolated then why don@t they have some form of peaceful protest. No instead let's attack the catholic neighbours. The cops should be more heavy handed on these thugs. The video footage is showing scum throwing petrol bombs and shooting and the police are happy to stand there and watch (i no it's a safety risk) but they should be doing more to curtail the violence.
Mark Simpson trying to tell the world why it is that there has been trouble in Belfast this week :
BBC Ireland Correspondent
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Historically at this time of year there have been street clashes where Catholic areas meet Protestant districts.
But that has been in the past and violence has been relatively rare on the streets since the Good Friday Agreement 13 years ago. So this has sprung up as something of a surprise.
It's a part of east Belfast which historically has had a problem between a small number of Catholics and Protestants.
There have been a number of small-scale sectarian incidents in recent months.
There is a presence in the area of a faction of the pro-British loyalist Ulster Volunteer Force, a paramilitary organisation which signed up to the peace process but is becoming disillusioned.
They are flexing their muscle and, if you put those factors together, you begin to understand what is happening.
Quote from: LeoMc on June 22, 2011, 09:23:34 AM
Quote from: new devil on June 22, 2011, 08:40:40 AM
Dirty orange b**tards....There will never be peace when that scum is about!!!
Are you advocating extermination or expulsion?
Hopefully it was a mindless comment rather than thought put into it!!
Are the riots in the North much more voilent than other parts of the world or is it the risk of gunfire alone.
In Greece for example, the police get out on feet and meet the rioters head on, make arrests and throw a few slaps. In Belfast the last few nights they seem to just drive their jeeps at them slowly. Surely if they deployed 100's of police and start lifting people it would help. In addition if they have water cannons use them as soon as it starts. Tear gas as well, let it at them.
apparently the water canons were used but no media coverage of it as they had been advised to leave the area.... ::)
Quote from: leenie on June 22, 2011, 10:51:05 AM
apparently the water canons were used but no media coverage of it as they had been advised to leave the area.... ::)
In fairness the media were told to leave after a photographer was shot.
Quote from: orangeman on June 22, 2011, 10:15:12 AM
a paramilitary organisation which signed up to the peace process but is becoming disillusioned.
What, pray tell, has them disillusioned?
Am I giving them too much credit to consider there is a rational explanation?
/Jim.
PSNI inactivity has to be questioned here, why are they not making wide spread arrests, why are they not out of their jeeps and confronting the thugs head on?
UVF becoming disillusioned, are we supposed to feel sorry of the drug pedalling scum?
No doubt the PC Police will be on here to condemn me but ffs lads... If someone attacks your house, you ring the police? When they just stand there and let it happen next plan of action is to defend yourself and your home? Some of the clowns from the SS are no angels but when you have loyalist scumbags shipped in from all parts of the cityto wreck the place there's little else left for you to do!! :-/
Quote from: Minder on June 22, 2011, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: leenie on June 22, 2011, 10:51:05 AM
apparently the water canons were used but no media coverage of it as they had been advised to leave the area.... ::)
In fairness the media were told to leave after a photographer was shot.
from 11 onwards last night they were being advised to leave...granted their safety is extremely important...But i am dubious about the canons being used. As a previous poster had mentioned where were the riot police and why drive slowly at them and then reverse... surely they know by now the best why to deal with it..
Why the police not get out of the landrovers and baton charge them????
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on June 22, 2011, 11:03:45 AM
Quote from: orangeman on June 22, 2011, 10:15:12 AM
a paramilitary organisation which signed up to the peace process but is becoming disillusioned.
What, pray tell, has them disillusioned?Am I giving them too much credit to consider there is a rational explanation?
/Jim.
The latest grant money has probably ran out and they're looking for a top up ?
Quote from: haveaharp on June 22, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
Its often said that both sides are as bad as each other in the six. Are they? When was the last time a sizeeable nationalist mob went attacking our unionist neighbours.
(http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/mccormick/photos/no1386r.jpg)
Quote from: leenie on June 22, 2011, 11:12:59 AM
Quote from: Minder on June 22, 2011, 11:00:24 AM
Quote from: leenie on June 22, 2011, 10:51:05 AM
apparently the water canons were used but no media coverage of it as they had been advised to leave the area.... ::)
In fairness the media were told to leave after a photographer was shot.
from 11 onwards last night they were being advised to leave...granted their safety is extremely important...But i am dubious about the canons being used. As a previous poster had mentioned where were the riot police and why drive slowly at them and then reverse... surely they know by now the best why to deal with it..
Water canons should be filled with
p155 sewer water and indeliable ink. That way the PSNI can see (and smell) the wee toe rags for the next 2 weeks and pick them up in situations less likely to escalate into further riots.
This brings back great memories of the loyalist mob harrassing young girls on the way to primary school only to be upstaged by Bin Laden and freinds in New York.
I don't buy this crack about them not being represented at Stormont. How the hell could you? I have the utmost respect for people like Dawn Purvis, she tried her best with them. Tried to represent them, to the best of her abilities. They, however, made it impossible for her to do so, that she had to step down as PUP Leader and subsequently lost her seat at the last elections.
The PUP then replaced her with Brian Ervine. I don't know much about the man, other than he is a brother of the late David. If he's anything like David, he can't be a bad sort. He announced he was stepping down as leader, a few weeks ago. His reasonings being, to focus on his former teaching career. To me, the timing seems to be more than coincidence. Did Brian noticed the rise of the UVF again in East Belfast, tried to stop it and eventually stepped down, knowing they are a lost cause and are unable to be represented?
It's alright - Peter is going to sort it all out to save our reputation:
Northern Ireland's First Minister Peter Robinson has said he is prepared to get "directly involved" in attempts to resolve the trouble in his east Belfast constituency.
A photographer was shot during a second night of sectarian violence near the Catholic enclave of Short Strand.
The PSNI confirmed the trouble was orchestrated by the loyalist paramilitary group, the UVF.
Talks have been taking place between community and political leaders.
Mr Robinson told the BBC that if people feel they need to have issues addressed "I will meet them".
He said people were horrified at what had happened and recognised the "reputational damage" it was doing to the economy.
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfWxkWGUIGVJOfTKk46MykBRRAoi4Z6vVwtBQ1zuR9OwVN28JL)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-u8E8OeIQgghBttqNJuRkNe-j6QUjDkF4YP5gCVhs1w3OKKSflQ)
They were quicker into the Holylands
Quote from: andoireabu on June 22, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfWxkWGUIGVJOfTKk46MykBRRAoi4Z6vVwtBQ1zuR9OwVN28JL)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-u8E8OeIQgghBttqNJuRkNe-j6QUjDkF4YP5gCVhs1w3OKKSflQ)
They were quicker into the Holylands
is that you with the tipp jersey on !
Exactly what I thought. 19 (I think) arrests made in one day.
Moral of the story is - if you dont want to get caught rioting, riot properly!
Who was the photographer shooting when he was shot?
How do we know if Gaaboard member orangeman is actually an orangeman disguised as an orangeman?
Why do community workers not know what is going on in the community?
Quote from: balladmaker on June 22, 2011, 11:10:42 AM
PSNI inactivity has to be questioned here, why are they not making wide spread arrests, why are they not out of their jeeps and confronting the thugs head on?
UVF becoming disillusioned, are we supposed to feel sorry of the drug pedalling scum?
Watched the BBC news this morning where they announced up to 500 people rioting and one arrest, the scene in the Life of Brian where the Roman Army march into the room where the people's front of Judea were hiding and marched out again with only a spoon immediately sprung to mind.
WTF, where was the water canon's, the snatch squads, riot police and even the photo's for the IN and telegraph to print at?
The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 02:03:18 PM
The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.
Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.
Quote from: orangeman on June 22, 2011, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 02:03:18 PM
The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.
Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.
Has a known dissident republican been arrested? or did the person who fired the shot carry round a large sign stating that he was in fact a dissident republican. stuff like that makes my blood boil. I wouldn't condemn any member of the shortstrand community who used a gun to defend their community and property against these loyalist thugs, although it was obviously unfortunate that a photographer got innocent injured. But this doesn't make them a dissident republican.
Don't shoot the messenger guys, no pun intended :D
Quote from: randomtask on June 22, 2011, 02:35:17 PM
Quote from: orangeman on June 22, 2011, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 02:03:18 PM
The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.
Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.
Has a known dissident republican been arrested? or did the person who fired the shot carry round a large sign stating that he was in fact a dissident republican. stuff like that makes my blood boil.
As it happens, David Blevins (SKY News) reported from the scene last night that the shot which had hit the photographer had come from the Catholic side (I'm pretty sure he said "Catholic", rather than Nationalist).
I didn't think to mention it before now, in case he was just speculating etc.
P.S. Before anyone climbs in, I don't mention that in order to engage in "whataboutery" - the tramps who are attacking the Strand are inexcusable, with the thugs directing them even worse. Altogether disgraceful.
Quote from: randomtask on June 22, 2011, 02:35:17 PMI wouldn't condemn any member of the shortstrand community who used a gun to defend their community and property against these loyalist thugs, although it was obviously unfortunate that a photographer got innocent injured. But this doesn't make them a dissident republican.
Oh dear.
You see, that sort of thinking is actually part of the problem, for what you are saying is that relying on the PSNI isn't good enough, people have the right to take the law into their own hands, even if it means possessing illegal weapons (I wonder where they got last night's gun from, and for what purpose), and even though innocents like the photographer are as likely to suffer as the thugs attacking the area.
Which, of course, is only what the Dissidents want. Which is why they target Catholic police officers in particular, i.e. so that Catholics will have even less confidence in a police force with unequal representation. So that eventually the PSNI will become "unacceptable" and places like the Short Strand become "no-go areas" once again.
Which will, in turn, give an "excuse" [
sic] to the (so-called) Loyalists to attack the Short Strand once more "to root out those IRA scum etc". (I know, I know, they've never needed an excuse before now...)
And so it goes on...
You see, that sort of thinking is actually part of the problem, for what you are saying is that relying on the PSNI isn't good enough, people have the right to take the law into their own hands
[/quote]
Well do you think it is honestly good enough that there were 700 rioters last night, but one women was arrested over the course of the night, will this inject the people of the short strand with confidence in the police force when they read that statistic?
Quote from: randomtask on June 22, 2011, 03:07:04 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 03:00:09 PM
You see, that sort of thinking is actually part of the problem, for what you are saying is that relying on the PSNI isn't good enough, people have the right to take the law into their own hands
Well do you think it is honestly good enough that there were 700 rioters last night, but one women was arrested over the course of the night, will this inject the people of the short strand with confidence in the police force when they read that statistic?
Like most people on this Board (I guess), I have reservations about the PSNI reaction (or lack of). That said, I was not actually there, nor have I ever had to police a riot, so I will reserve judgement on their performance until we know more.
But whether one approves of the PSNI's policing or not,
two wrongs do not make a right. And whatever else the answer, someone* taking a gun and letting loose in the middle of a riot is certainly not it - as I'm sure the unfortunate photographer would agree.
* - As the PSNI have averred, the gunman is most likely not just "someone". Ordinary people do not have guns in their homes, therefore the gunman was almost certainly either a gangster/drug dealer etc, or was a paramilitary. And regarding the latter, seeing as Alex Maskey & Co were on the scene, it seems very likely to me that the gunman won't have been a Provo who "forgot" to decommission his weapon back in the day. Therefore it's more likely to have been a Dissident paramilitary. In which case, would you really rather put your faith in some Gangster, or some Real IRA man, over the PSNI? Because if you do, then the best I can say for you is that you're an idiot.
Quote from: orangeman on June 22, 2011, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 02:03:18 PM
The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.
Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.
Everyone was quick to accept their word when they said it was the UVF started it!
EG, your response carries a sort of a smug, suburban superiority, a condescending know-it-all-ness, conveyed in words such as "Oh dear, you see . . . ." before you explain that the residents of the Short Strand should place their faith in the PSNI.
In a civil society, of course, that would be the reasonable thing to do, to believe in the dependability of the police force, but the onus of responsibility in this case falls squarely on the shoulders of the police to show that they are deserving of respect/support.
I dearly want the PSNI to succeed, to demonstrate that it is no longer the lackey of loyalism, that it applies a just law fairly and equally. But, so far at least, in this situation, it has done little to assuage Nationalist fears about its impartiality.
Like you, I do not sanction the use of guns, but then again, like you, I imagine, I'm not trapped in the Short Strand. If I were a resident of that area, I'm not sure what I'd do. Given the long history of pogroms and persecution against Catholics in the North, ignored by and sometimes promoted by the police, I would perhaps feel more secure by placing my defense in my own hands rather than in the police's. I certainly wouldn't want a replay of Bombay Street or the Short Strand itself.
I don't know who fired shots from the Nationalist side—dissident Republicans, the PIRA, or perhaps even a lone and terrified resident who'd got his hands on a gun years ago in readiness for such an eventuality, I don't know. But I do agree with you that this plays perfectly into the hands of those who would seek to scuttle the GFA.
This, then, is a significant test for the PSNI. Will it act in a way to bolster Nationalist faith in its integrity, or will it merely perform as the RUC did? So far, I fear, it is falling short of the mark, but I'll wait till I learn more, earnestly hoping that it acts as it ought to and not relinquish protection of the Short Strand community to eager gunmen.
I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.
In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.
Quote from: randomtask on June 22, 2011, 02:35:17 PM
Quote from: orangeman on June 22, 2011, 02:18:31 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 02:03:18 PM
The PSNI have confirmed it was dissident republicans that shot the photographer last night.
Really ? Well that must be the truth then. I wonder how they know ?.
Has a known dissident republican been arrested? or did the person who fired the shot carry round a large sign stating that he was in fact a dissident republican. stuff like that makes my blood boil. I wouldn't condemn any member of the shortstrand community who used a gun to defend their community and property against these loyalist thugs, although it was obviously unfortunate that a photographer got innocent injured. But this doesn't make them a dissident republican.
Is it OK for the Police or Photograhers or any innocent Loyalists living on the other side of the divide to shoot back to defend their colleagues or neighbours?
Quote from: andoireabu on June 22, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfWxkWGUIGVJOfTKk46MykBRRAoi4Z6vVwtBQ1zuR9OwVN28JL)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-u8E8OeIQgghBttqNJuRkNe-j6QUjDkF4YP5gCVhs1w3OKKSflQ)
They were quicker into the Holylands
100% correct
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 04:30:52 PM
I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.
In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.
Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.
FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.
Quote from: LeoMc on June 22, 2011, 04:41:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 04:30:52 PM
I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.
In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.
Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.
FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.
Not rightly or wrongly about the students. Rightly or wrongly about the PSNI's reaction to the Loyalists in the Short Strand, when you compare it to the students on the Holylands.
From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).
Could I ask if funding for "community workers" is drying up after what could be considered a long period of relative calm? Just that they might have to find funding from somewhere to get the "community workers" to work together to get this sorted out. :-\ I'd like to know the answer to that one because I think when you strip away all the crud, we just might find that this whole incident was engineered just to keep thugs "in employment"
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 04:44:09 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 22, 2011, 04:41:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 04:30:52 PM
I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.
In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.
Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.
FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.
Not rightly or wrongly about the students. Rightly or wrongly about the PSNI's reaction to the Loyalists in the Short Strand, when you compare it to the students on the Holylands.
In fairness they could have went in a bit harder on the students in the holylands :P I thought they were to lenient.
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 04:44:09 PM
Quote from: LeoMc on June 22, 2011, 04:41:33 PM
Quote from: ziggysego on June 22, 2011, 04:30:52 PM
I would agree with EG, in that I hate seeing Nationalists and Republicans reacting to the attacks coming from the UVF. It is just what they want and the dissidents want. However, I can understand where they are coming from. From their PoV, the PSNI are seemingly doing nothing to help them. Like yourself EG, I have no idea about riot control, but when you compare this to the Holylands, there are going to be suspicions, rightly or wrongly.
In the perfect world, the PSNI would be in there over the last few nights; lifting the rioters there and then and lifting them during the day too. It's a big test for the PSNI now, they have to be seen to being proactive in the Short Strand or Nationalist/Republican confidence will disappear and play into the hands of the Real IRA.
Students are easy. They will fess up and pay the fines to keep their names from getting back home.
For the scum riotting it would be a badge of honour in their community to be lifted. Say nothing and you are out in 48.
FFS News reports are saying they were wearing surgical gloves. They are getting more forensically aware and are going to leave as little prosecutable evidence as possible "See me I wuz only walkin home when thon big bad fenian cop lifted me for nathin" CSI has a lot to answer for.
Not rightly or wrongly about the students. Rightly or wrongly about the PSNI's reaction to the Loyalists in the Short Strand, when you compare it to the students on the Holylands.
That is what I am taling about too. I am just saying it is easier for them to pick up a few students.
I am however prepared to give them the benefit and a bit of time to see how many they pick up and charge in the coming days.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 04:10:01 PM
Quote from: randomtask on June 22, 2011, 03:07:04 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 22, 2011, 03:00:09 PM
You see, that sort of thinking is actually part of the problem, for what you are saying is that relying on the PSNI isn't good enough, people have the right to take the law into their own hands
Well do you think it is honestly good enough that there were 700 rioters last night, but one women was arrested over the course of the night, will this inject the people of the short strand with confidence in the police force when they read that statistic?
Like most people on this Board (I guess), I have reservations about the PSNI reaction (or lack of). That said, I was not actually there, nor have I ever had to police a riot, so I will reserve judgement on their performance until we know more.
But whether one approves of the PSNI's policing or not, two wrongs do not make a right. And whatever else the answer, someone* taking a gun and letting loose in the middle of a riot is certainly not it - as I'm sure the unfortunate photographer would agree.
* - As the PSNI have averred, the gunman is most likely not just "someone". Ordinary people do not have guns in their homes, therefore the gunman was almost certainly either a gangster/drug dealer etc, or was a paramilitary. And regarding the latter, seeing as Alex Maskey & Co were on the scene, it seems very likely to me that the gunman won't have been a Provo who "forgot" to decommission his weapon back in the day. Therefore it's more likely to have been a Dissident paramilitary. In which case, would you really rather put your faith in some Gangster, or some Real IRA man, over the PSNI? Because if you do, then the best I can say for you is that you're an idiot.
I stated that i would not condemn any member of the short strand community that would use a gun to defend their
community or property. I was not specifically talking about this particular incident directly, were someone took a look over a wall and it seems like shot with no aim. This is very reckless and someone innocent was injured. If you can put yourself in a member of the short strands community shoes, where they property is being badly damaged for no real reason and your children are traumatised, would you not think that you would need some form of protection in case of the worst was to happen. Did anyone see the news reports of a women talking about numerous masked men outside her house wrecking cars and smashing windows, i know if i was in that situation i would put serious though into arming myself especially when it seems the police aren't doing enough to stop this scum i.e no arrests of real note. Im sure most of these thugs wouldn't have to think twice about taking this further.
Tonight is a big test for the police, if the police do not take any real action by stopping these individuals for the third night in a row serious questions need to be asked. Such as why arrests and deterrents are not in place when they know the likelihood of trouble is very high and they know where this trouble is coming from.
Quote from: theskull1 on June 22, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).
So you're saying this lad deliberately targetted photographers. A crowd of loyalists attacking their community, and he decides to deliberately target and shoot at photographers. I dont care who was there - theres no way thats true.
And the whole shite about surgical gloves is a white elephant too. How long are they going to last when you're chucking bricks? And what are they supposed to achieve? CSI has a lot to answer for aright, either those lads are even more stupid than I thought, or more likely imo, the media are full of shit about details like that and gullible people swallow it.
Whens the last time a riot scene was cordoned off while the police searched for forensic eveidnce??! Anyone charged over a riot is lifted or identified, at the scene. Surgical gloves arent much use to you then
Quote from: haranguerer on June 22, 2011, 05:14:23 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on June 22, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).
So you're saying this lad deliberately targetted photographers. A crowd of loyalists attacking their community, and he decides to deliberately target and shoot at photographers. I dont care who was there - theres no way thats true.
And the whole shite about surgical gloves is a white elephant too. How long are they going to last when you're chucking bricks? And what are they supposed to achieve? CSI has a lot to answer for aright, either those lads are even more stupid than I thought, or more likely imo, the media are full of shit about details like that and gullible people swallow it.
Whens the last time a riot scene was cordoned off while the police searched for forensic eveidnce??! Anyone charged over a riot is lifted or identified, at the scene. Surgical gloves arent much use to you then
couldnt agree more. I know if someone was attacking my house or area and i had a gun, i would aim for the photographer ::)
Quote from: theskull1 on June 22, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).
Could I ask if funding for "community workers" is drying up after what could be considered a long period of relative calm? Just that they might have to find funding from somewhere to get the "community workers" to work together to get this sorted out. :-\ I'd like to know the answer to that one because I think when you strip away all the crud, we just might find that this whole incident was engineered just to keep thugs "in employment"
I dont know if it was engineered to keep them in "employment" but you are probably not too far away about funding. I would bet that after these "negotiations" take place, and they conclude the various talking shops that Stormont will organise (to be seen to be doing something) public money will pour into the area to help 'regenerate" it and there will be any amount of self help groups, where some thug will be getting £35k per year to show a hood how to turn a computer on. The place, both communities, will be coming down with "directors" and "project coordinators".
listening to a doctor rosamy craig on bbc news 24 talking about the riots, she mentioned ulsters greatest son was home, the golfer rory mcintire, she mentioned the wrong name twice. Why have none of the wee balloxis been scooped yet?
Has calm been restored to the area tonight ?
Quote from: Minder on June 22, 2011, 08:03:26 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on June 22, 2011, 04:52:29 PM
From someone who was there.....
The gun was pointed over a high wall (wearing surgical gloves)and fired blind downward (not in the direction of "loyalist thugs") where the photographers were standing, so the boy who fired the shot knew what he was doing. The photographer was not injured by a stray bullet. This boy was not protecting his community (whatever that means).
Could I ask if funding for "community workers" is drying up after what could be considered a long period of relative calm? Just that they might have to find funding from somewhere to get the "community workers" to work together to get this sorted out. :-\ I'd like to know the answer to that one because I think when you strip away all the crud, we just might find that this whole incident was engineered just to keep thugs "in employment"
I dont know if it was engineered to keep them in "employment" but you are probably not too far away about funding. I would bet that after these "negotiations" take place, and they conclude the various talking shops that Stormont will organise (to be seen to be doing something) public money will pour into the area to help 'regenerate" it and there will be any amount of self help groups, where some thug will be getting £35k per year to show a hood how to turn a computer on. The place, both
communities, will be coming down with "directors" and "project coordinators".
Something like this.
http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/news/robinson-and-mcguinness-launch-interface-programme-partnership-atlantic-philanthropies
Hopefully going to stay calm tonight. It has been reported that a republican has been arrested in connection with the riots. Hundreds of loyalists attack a catholic area with petrol bombs and not one of them arrested while they find time to arrest someone protecting the short strand because the police failed to do so. f**king typical
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 22, 2011, 04:27:50 PM
EG, your response carries a sort of a smug, suburban superiority, a condescending know-it-all-ness, conveyed in words such as "Oh dear, you see . . . ." before you explain that the residents of the Short Strand should place their faith in the PSNI.
As someone who was living in a house 100 yards from the "interface" on the Ormeau Road on the night Bobby Sands died etc, I thought I could claim to have witnessed events such as last night at first hand.
And as someone who used frequently to travel across town to East Belfast around the same period, including past the Short Strand, I thought myself not unfamiliar with that locality, too.
But hey, what do I know, from the security of my smug, suburban existence...
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 22, 2011, 04:27:50 PMIn a civil society, of course, that would be the reasonable thing to do, to believe in the dependability of the police force, but the onus of responsibility in this case falls squarely on the shoulders of the police to show that they are deserving of respect/support.
I dearly want the PSNI to succeed, to demonstrate that it is no longer the lackey of loyalism, that it applies a just law fairly and equally. But, so far at least, in this situation, it has done little to assuage Nationalist fears about its impartiality.
This, then, is a significant test for the PSNI. Will it act in a way to bolster Nationalist faith in its integrity, or will it merely perform as the RUC did? So far, I fear, it is falling short of the mark, but I'll wait till I learn more, earnestly hoping that it acts as it ought to and not relinquish protection of the Short Strand community to eager gunmen.
Alex Maskey, who has been on the Short Strand during this situation, introduced a debate on it in Stormont this morning:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/democracylive/hi/northern_ireland/newsid_9518000/9518385.stm
He did not think even to mention the PSNI's role, never mind question their impartiality. And when Conall McDevitt (also on the scene) did mention them, he merely pointed to a lack of preparedness and resources etc, not any lack of even-handedness on their part.
Somehow, I suspect that if the PSNI simply weren't bothered to intervene because "It's only Fenians who are getting battered etc", one of those two might have thought fit to mention it... ::)
EG, I was bothered by the tone you presented in your post. You responded to another poster with a snotty "Oh dear, you see" and later by calling him an "idiot". That is condescending.
Second, I didn't mean to imply that the PSNI was partial. Instead, in a crucible like Short Strand it is vital that they be seen to be impartial. I withheld judgment, saying that I would adopt a wait-and-see approach.
I hope they do succeed and that they are impartial. I do not want a recurrence of Bombay Street.
Quote from: Hoof Hearted on June 22, 2011, 01:31:42 PM
Quote from: andoireabu on June 22, 2011, 01:14:49 PM
(http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSfWxkWGUIGVJOfTKk46MykBRRAoi4Z6vVwtBQ1zuR9OwVN28JL)
(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS-u8E8OeIQgghBttqNJuRkNe-j6QUjDkF4YP5gCVhs1w3OKKSflQ)
They were quicker into the Holylands
is that you with the tipp jersey on !
Not the bit of me! I was on the next street over!! ;) :D
Quote from: Orior on June 21, 2011, 09:38:08 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 21, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Orior please retract your post; otherwise you are showing total and utter ignorance.
No way, Jose.
1) It was not meant to be taken literally
2) Why exactly did the Orangemen protest outside Harryville church in Ballymena?
3) In what way are loyalists different from Orangemen?
4) Is it not true that Orangemen believe that the pope is the anti-christ, and they protested about his visit to Britain.
5) Go back to 1.
Sorry just back on this now.
1. You say that but then you make 3 more points targetting Orangemen.
2. No idea; didn't know they did. But what has that got to do with violence at Short Strand.
3. Orangemen may or may not consider themselves to be 'loyalists'. But not all loyalists are Orangmen.
4. Don't know. Which of these protests do you mean?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB289GB289&q=protest+against+pope+visiting+britain (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB289GB289&q=protest+against+pope+visiting+britain)
5. Indeed.
The long and the short of it is that the OO has nothing to do with this trouble and you have continued to display ignorance.
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Sorry just back on this now.
Ah good, maybe you can now get around to answering question which I've asked you twice now:
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
So you are saying that it IS a coincidence that these loyalist attacks traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Has anyone else noticed how quickly these events have been relegated to a minor aside on BBC NI's website? Had it been trouble at a Gaelic Football match, however... ::)
Lest we blame the culprits - I mean, they have no representation and no one listens to them.
More like the drug dealers in clandestine labs have been having a big cooking session and needed to shift their product so why not cause a wee distraction...
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Sorry just back on this now.
Ah good, maybe you can now get around to answering question which I've asked you twice now:
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
So you are saying that it IS a coincidence that these loyalist attacks traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Right so, didn't think the question was worth answering.
Have you ever thought that it might be tied to the Cricket season seeing as it's on now too? Or is it any coincidence that the riots started on Monday... the same night as Wimbledon? The LTA have a lot to answer for!
I'd say it's usually more to do with the lighter, warmer evenings that we tend to have in the summer here in the northern hemisphere. I mean, who in their right mind would ever riot on a cold, wet night in December?
But yeah, you've got a great career ahead of you in tough political journalism. Paxman has to watch his back.
Quote from: Aerlik on June 23, 2011, 06:02:10 PM
Has anyone else noticed how quickly these events have been relegated to a minor aside on BBC NI's website? Had it been trouble at a Gaelic Football match, however... ::)
I don't know what site you're looking at but on my BBC it's the top story! ???
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 06:53:33 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Sorry just back on this now.
Ah good, maybe you can now get around to answering question which I've asked you twice now:
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
So you are saying that it IS a coincidence that these loyalist attacks traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Right so, didn't think the question was worth answering.
Have you ever thought that it might be tied to the Cricket season seeing as it's on now too? Or is it any coincidence that the riots started on Monday... the same night as Wimbledon? The LTA have a lot to answer for!
I'd say it's usually more to do with the lighter, warmer evenings that we tend to have in the summer here in the northern hemisphere. I mean, who in their right mind would ever riot on a cold, wet night in December?
But yeah, you've got a great career ahead of you in tough political journalism. Paxman has to watch his back.
A
simple yes or no, Tonto:
Do you believe that it is just a coincidence that loyalist attacks on Nationalist areas traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:07:11 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 06:53:33 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Sorry just back on this now.
Ah good, maybe you can now get around to answering question which I've asked you twice now:
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
So you are saying that it IS a coincidence that these loyalist attacks traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Right so, didn't think the question was worth answering.
Have you ever thought that it might be tied to the Cricket season seeing as it's on now too? Or is it any coincidence that the riots started on Monday... the same night as Wimbledon? The LTA have a lot to answer for!
I'd say it's usually more to do with the lighter, warmer evenings that we tend to have in the summer here in the northern hemisphere. I mean, who in their right mind would ever riot on a cold, wet night in December?
But yeah, you've got a great career ahead of you in tough political journalism. Paxman has to watch his back.
A simple yes or no, Tonto:
Do you believe that it is just a coincidence that loyalist attacks on Nationalist areas traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
I know it might be hard for a doctrinaire militant republican to accept but the world isn't just black and white and there are some questions which do not lend themselves to simple 'yes'/'no' answers.
Sadly, I haven't done a university theses on it but I'd love to read yours; so I can only go by my gut feeling that there are a myriad of factors; one of which MAY be the "marching season".
However, that does not take away from the fact that the Orange Order played no part in causing or escalating the incident at Short Strand.BTW, it's the GAA season too, isn't it? ??? ;)
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:12:35 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:07:11 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 06:53:33 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Sorry just back on this now.
Ah good, maybe you can now get around to answering question which I've asked you twice now:
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 06:34:51 PM
Tonto how can you deny that these attacks traditionally escalate as the orange marching season approaches. Do you genuinely believe that it is coincidence?
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 21, 2011, 07:59:24 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread any more than the Rainbow Project should have been. It's got feck all to do with them except for one or two bigots on this thread to score a couple of cheap points. Wise up.
So you are saying that it IS a coincidence that these loyalist attacks traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
Right so, didn't think the question was worth answering.
Have you ever thought that it might be tied to the Cricket season seeing as it's on now too? Or is it any coincidence that the riots started on Monday... the same night as Wimbledon? The LTA have a lot to answer for!
I'd say it's usually more to do with the lighter, warmer evenings that we tend to have in the summer here in the northern hemisphere. I mean, who in their right mind would ever riot on a cold, wet night in December?
But yeah, you've got a great career ahead of you in tough political journalism. Paxman has to watch his back.
A simple yes or no, Tonto:
Do you believe that it is just a coincidence that loyalist attacks on Nationalist areas traditionally escalate during Marching Season?
I know it might be hard for a doctrinaire militant republican to accept but the world isn't just black and white and there are some questions which do not lend themselves to simple 'yes'/'no' answers.
Sadly, I haven't done a university theses on it but I'd love to read yours; so I can only go by my gut feeling that there are a myriad of factors; one of which MAY be the "marching season".
However, that does not take away from the fact that the Orange Order played no part in causing or escalating the incident at Short Strand.
BTW, it's the GAA season too, isn't it? ??? ;)
Oh so only SOME of the loyalist violence which escalates coming into the summer months "MAY" be related to the oncoming marching season? It beggars belief.
As for the GAA, is it supposed to be a parallel organisation to the Orange Order? Do explain... (this should be good!!)
Tonto, before broadcasting your academic prowess, you should know that "theses" is plural, not singular.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:17:36 PM
Oh so only SOME of the loyalist violence which escalates coming into the summer months "MAY" be related to the oncoming marching season? It beggars belief.
As for the GAA, is it supposed to be a parallel organisation to the Orange Order? Do explain... (this should be good!!)
Nally, my original point was that, contrary to a post on this board, the Short Strand incident over the last few nights was not caused or escalated by the Orange Order. Do you deny this?
PS Oraisteach... when did I broadcast my "academic prowess"? I said I DIDN'T do a university thesis on the topic. But constructive feedback is always welcome.
I apologize, Tonto, you're absolutely right.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 23, 2011, 07:42:00 PM
I apologize, Tonto, you're absolutely right.
That's nice to hear sometimes!! :)
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:38:57 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:17:36 PM
Oh so only SOME of the loyalist violence which escalates coming into the summer months "MAY" be related to the oncoming marching season? It beggars belief.
As for the GAA, is it supposed to be a parallel organisation to the Orange Order? Do explain... (this should be good!!)
Nally, my original point was that, contrary to a post on this board, the Short Strand incident over the last few nights was not caused or escalated by the Orange Order. Do you deny this?
PS Oraisteach... when did I broadcast my "academic prowess"? I said I DIDN'T do a university thesis on the topic. But constructive feedback is always welcome.
1. I never stated the Orange Order was singularly responsible for the attack on Short Strand. I said the entire marching season tends to bring with it an increase in loyalist violence directed at Nationalist areas. That includes the assault on the Short Strand this week. I refuse to take the view that this is a coincidence. "Orangefest" ( ::)) tends to inflame loyalist passions and nationalist interface area are generally at a higher risk at this time of year.
2. (Seems I have to repeat questions to you a lot. Here we go again....) As for the GAA, are you implying that it is supposed to be a parallel organisation to the Orange Order? Do explain...
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:50:51 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:38:57 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 07:17:36 PM
Oh so only SOME of the loyalist violence which escalates coming into the summer months "MAY" be related to the oncoming marching season? It beggars belief.
As for the GAA, is it supposed to be a parallel organisation to the Orange Order? Do explain... (this should be good!!)
Nally, my original point was that, contrary to a post on this board, the Short Strand incident over the last few nights was not caused or escalated by the Orange Order. Do you deny this?
PS Oraisteach... when did I broadcast my "academic prowess"? I said I DIDN'T do a university thesis on the topic. But constructive feedback is always welcome.
1. I never stated the Orange Order was singularly responsible for the attack on Short Strand. I said the entire marching season tends to bring with it an increase in loyalist violence directed at Nationalist areas. That includes the assault on the Short Strand this week. I refuse to take the view that this is a coincidence. "Orangefest" ( ::)) tends to inflame loyalist passions and nationalist interface area are generally at a higher risk at this time of year.
2. (Seems I have to repeat questions to you a lot. Here we go again....) As for the GAA, are you implying that it is supposed to be a parallel organisation to the Orange Order? Do explain...
1. OK - I'll ask in a simple
yes or no, seeing as you're fond of that. Do you blame the Orange Order (like Orior did) for the trouble at Short Strand this week? If so produce evidence if not I think I am somewhat vindicated.
2. I didn't say that, you made that up by yourself. Maybe you've got a guilty conscience for some reason or another?
But now that
you mention it both organisations have certain similarities in that they both grew up to promote a particular culture, both have stated political goals and both draw their support almost exclusively from one side of our wee county's divide. Aside from that, no, there's very little in common.
I should also point out that with point two you have changed the thread away from its purpose.
1. I answered that fairly emphatically in my last post.
2. I note you say that the OO and GAA in the six counties each take membership mainly from a certain community. Need I remind you that while one of those organisation is actively trying to increase membership from "the other side", the other organisation forbids membership "from the other side".
Anyway, you claim a number of times there that I am bringing up the topic of the GAA. Before I mentioned it, you posted the following:
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:12:35 PM
... the Orange Order played no part in causing or escalating the incident at Short Strand.
BTW, it's the GAA season too, isn't it? ??? ;)
And you try to claim you weren't insinuating that the GAA are an equivalent organisation to the Orange Order? Strange that three times you refer to in in reference to the Orange Order.
Do us all a favour and stop talking through your hole. As the old saying goes, "Never argue with a fool - they'll lower you to their level and then beat you with experience". So on that note - cheerio.
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 10:55:55 PM
1. I answered that fairly emphatically in my last post.
2. I note you say that the OO and GAA in the six counties each take membership mainly from a certain community. Need I remind you that while one of those organisation is actively trying to increase membership from "the other side", the other organisation forbids membership "from the other side".
Anyway, you claim a number of times there that I am bringing up the topic of the GAA. Before I mentioned it, you posted the following:
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:12:35 PM
... the Orange Order played no part in causing or escalating the incident at Short Strand.
BTW, it's the GAA season too, isn't it? ??? ;)
And you try to claim you weren't insinuating that the GAA are an equivalent organisation to the Orange Order? Strange that three times you refer to in in reference to the Orange Order.
Do us all a favour and stop talking through your hole. As the old saying goes, "Never argue with a fool - they'll lower you to their level and then beat you with experience". So on that note - cheerio.
Nally I could have told you a long time ago that he was an asshole,ignore the p***k
Tonto, it is not bigoted to say that a bigoted organisation is full of bigots! :D
And since you love wee analogies!
"The KKK are racist thugs, and I blame them for the racial abuse some footballers are getting from the terraces"
Tonto's response " What! Thats very bigoted what your saying, the KKK are responsible no more so that than the rainbow project are for footballers getting racial abuse"
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 21, 2011, 09:38:08 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 21, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Orior please retract your post; otherwise you are showing total and utter ignorance.
No way, Jose.
1) It was not meant to be taken literally
2) Why exactly did the Orangemen protest outside Harryville church in Ballymena?3) In what way are loyalists different from Orangemen?
4) Is it not true that Orangemen believe that the pope is the anti-christ, and they protested about his visit to Britain.
5) Go back to 1.
Sorry just back on this now.
1. You say that but then you make 3 more points targetting Orangemen.
2. No idea; didn't know they did. But what has that got to do with violence at Short Strand.
3. Orangemen may or may not consider themselves to be 'loyalists'. But not all loyalists are Orangmen.
4. Don't know. Which of these protests do you mean?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB289GB289&q=protest+against+pope+visiting+britain (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB289GB289&q=protest+against+pope+visiting+britain)
5. Indeed.
The long and the short of it is that the OO has nothing to do with this trouble and you have continued to display ignorance.
Re: bit in bold. Are you taking the piss?
You never heard of the protests at Harryville - kind of negates your ability to discuss (with any credible authority) the orange order!
Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on June 24, 2011, 11:23:34 AM
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 05:19:37 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 21, 2011, 09:38:08 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
Quote from: red hander on June 21, 2011, 06:19:49 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:01:18 PM
Quote from: Orior on June 20, 2011, 11:04:18 PM
Mass on a Sunday is provocotive show of strength by the enemy to an Orangeman.
Firstly let me just say that I agree that these people are the toal and utter scum of the earth.
But you seem intent on total ignorance by referring to Orangemen... WTF has this got to do with the Orange? p***k.
And the Orange Order has never manipulated loyalist thugs to whip up sectarian strife during the marching season? Where have you been living, Mars?
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Orior please retract your post; otherwise you are showing total and utter ignorance.
No way, Jose.
1) It was not meant to be taken literally
2) Why exactly did the Orangemen protest outside Harryville church in Ballymena?3) In what way are loyalists different from Orangemen?
4) Is it not true that Orangemen believe that the pope is the anti-christ, and they protested about his visit to Britain.
5) Go back to 1.
Sorry just back on this now.
1. You say that but then you make 3 more points targetting Orangemen.
2. No idea; didn't know they did. But what has that got to do with violence at Short Strand.
3. Orangemen may or may not consider themselves to be 'loyalists'. But not all loyalists are Orangmen.
4. Don't know. Which of these protests do you mean?
http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB289GB289&q=protest+against+pope+visiting+britain (http://www.google.co.uk/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4GGLR_enGB289GB289&q=protest+against+pope+visiting+britain)
5. Indeed.
The long and the short of it is that the OO has nothing to do with this trouble and you have continued to display ignorance.
Re: bit in bold. Are you taking the piss?
You never heard of the protests at Harryville - kind of negates your ability to discuss (with any credible authority) the orange order!
Read this article. It was not sanctioned by the Orange Order.
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/imported/harryville-protest-takes-a-new-twist-13873588.html (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/imported/harryville-protest-takes-a-new-twist-13873588.html)
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
Tonto, it is not bigoted to say that a bigoted organisation is full of bigots! :D
And since you love wee analogies!
"The KKK are racist thugs, and I blame them for the racial abuse some footballers are getting from the terraces"
Tonto's response " What! Thats very bigoted what your saying, the KKK are responsible no more so that than the rainbow project are for footballers getting racial abuse"
Really? You would blame the KKK for ALL racist chanting at football matches? I didn't know that the small group from the deep south of the USA had such an influence in say, Poland.
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 10:22:41 AMTonto, it is not bigoted to say that a bigoted organisation is full of bigots! :D
I am not a member of the OO, nor never would be, for a variety of reasons. Imo it is at best anachronistic, at worst it tolerates some very nasty characters within its ranks, whose disgraceful and anything-but-Loyal activites bring shame upon the organisation.
But I also know many more Orangemen who are decent individuals and who, I am certain, are just as disgusted by the way their own names are dragged into the gutter by a minority (yes, minority) of their "brethren", but feel unable to know exactly what to do about it, whilst being unwilling to leave an organisation which they love, to the bigots.
To give one small example, here is an account of a visit last year by the "Riverbrooke Cross Border Initiative" to the Twelfth of July demonstrations in Brookeborough, Co. Fermanagh:
"Children in prams, pensioners on deck chairs and dogs on leads all sat back and soaked up the friendly atmosphere as up to 100 lodges from Fermanagh, including around 70 bands gathered to celebrate a day of culture, Those marching, included lodges from Lisbellaw, Kinawley, Churchill, Newtownbutler and of course, Brookeborough.
They were joined by their Irish counterparts from Monaghan, Leitrim, Donegal and Cavan.
30 members of the Riverbrooke Cross-Border Initiative based in County Sligo also arrived and were "intrigued" to catch their first Twelfth.
The group's project coordinator, John Deignan said they were "anxious and nervous" about coming to Fermanagh at first.
"Our members, are of course, predominately Catholic. They have stepped very much out of their comfort zones. Only one of our members has been to the Twelfth before," he said.
Riverbrooke (a wordplay of Brookeborough and Riverstown) came together 15 years ago with a view of looking at ways of bringing the two communities together. It has received funding through the Peace II Programme and the International Funding for Ireland and looks at working with all sections of the community, not just the Orange Order.
Monday's trip was to "educate" its members and according to Mr. Deignan, it worked: "Most of them have been left amazed by the warmth they've received here, overwhelmed by the number of bands taking part and surprised at the relaxed atmosphere. I'm shocked at how relaxed it is. There's not even a hint of trouble. If you wanted to start some trouble, you'd feel very much out of place. Coming to Brookeborough has left a positive feeling. I think as a result the people want to find out more about the Orange Order. On the news we don't hear about 400 people walking down the street peacefully, we just hear about two people knocking the heads of each other -- so being here has changed their perceptions," he said.
Another Irish Orangeman, Ian Beamish said he joined the Dublin and Wexford Orange Lodge because he didn't want to see his cultural heritage "in a museum".
"I wanted to live it and experience it. The best thing I could have done was join. In our lodge we have members from Cork, Kerry, Longford, Kildare and Carlow. We have such a mix in the lodge; farmers, lectures, students and college workers. My wife, mother-in-law and kids are here today; it's just a pity more people from the South don't come up to explore it."And I also know that in many parts of the Order (esp outside Belfast), it actually does a lot of good work at a community level. To give one example, not all the bands associated with the OO are of the "Kick-The-Pope" variety - throughout Ulster there are many wee communities where the local band, often made up of family members going back generations, spend countless hours on dark winter evenings, practising in Orange Halls for their local annual parades etc.
Here are two from Kilkeel (Mourne YD) and just outside (Pride of Ballinran) whose rivalry has generated excellence in their own particular field:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQbeBvNsejY&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQbeBvNsejY&feature=related)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8HjS7eS_5g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8HjS7eS_5g&feature=related)
(Not my thing, btw, any more than eg Line Dancing or Stamp Collecting, but I daresay it keeps them out of trouble).
Anyhow, I say this not in any way to deny, condone or defend the unacceptable face of Orangeism in NI today - far from it - but at the same time, I do not like to see a whole group of individuals demonised
en masse by people who are clearly entirely ignorant of the organisation and what it's all about.
Finally, I would point out to all those who seem to think that just because "All Orangemen are Loyalists", then conversely "All Loyalists must be Orangemen", that they should know that the entire membership of the OO in NI is thought to be a little over 30k i.e. around 3% of the entire Protestant population.
http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/orange_order_numbers_in_decline_1_1886073
(The idiot) Drew Nelson blames the steep fall in numbers on the "increase of secularism". Now I'm no expert, but if I had to guess, I'd say it's little to do with that, rather many ordinary Prods have either left the Order, or been put off joining in the first place, by the extreme political stance taken by its Leadership etc, which culminates eg in the disgraceful scenes at Drumcree etc.
Imo, if the OO dropped the politics entirely and concentrated on being purely exclusively a religious/cultural/social organisation, it would be much the better for it - including in attracting new membership from outside its traditional catchment.
Then again, it is hardly alone in that, I'd say... ;)
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 10:55:55 PM
1. I answered that fairly emphatically in my last post.
2. I note you say that the OO and GAA in the six counties each take membership mainly from a certain community. Need I remind you that while one of those organisation is actively trying to increase membership from "the other side", the other organisation forbids membership "from the other side".
Anyway, you claim a number of times there that I am bringing up the topic of the GAA. Before I mentioned it, you posted the following:
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:12:35 PM
... the Orange Order played no part in causing or escalating the incident at Short Strand.
BTW, it's the GAA season too, isn't it? ??? ;)
And you try to claim you weren't insinuating that the GAA are an equivalent organisation to the Orange Order? Strange that three times you refer to in in reference to the Orange Order.
Do us all a favour and stop talking through your hole. As the old saying goes, "Never argue with a fool - they'll lower you to their level and then beat you with experience". So on that note - cheerio.
1. Seeing as you like yes/no questions I wanted you to answer with a yes/no yourself.
2. Does that "reaching out" not extend to the naming of clubs, grounds and tropies after terrorists and allowing republican rallies to take place on the grounds of GAA clubs? Maybe they could reach a little further.
3. I also mentioned the LTA and the Rainbow Project. But the first mention of the GAA from me was an insinuation at how ridiculous it would be to blame the GAA for all our ills, the second one was a response to the question (by you I think) and the third was tongue-in-cheek in a similar vein to the aforementioned LTA and Rainbow Project one.
4. It's fair enough if you want to bow out now, I was getting bored anyway. :)
Quote from: glens abu on June 23, 2011, 11:12:43 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on June 23, 2011, 10:55:55 PM
1. I answered that fairly emphatically in my last post.
2. I note you say that the OO and GAA in the six counties each take membership mainly from a certain community. Need I remind you that while one of those organisation is actively trying to increase membership from "the other side", the other organisation forbids membership "from the other side".
Anyway, you claim a number of times there that I am bringing up the topic of the GAA. Before I mentioned it, you posted the following:
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 06:31:25 PM
I'll ask again, what has an 'orchestrated' attack by the UVF got to do with the Orange Order?
Maybe I'll go onto the Kingsmills thread and start blaming the GAA.
Quote from: Tonto on June 21, 2011, 07:47:46 PM
No of course not, the GAA claim to be only a "sporting" organisation.
The Orange should not have been brought into this thread
Quote from: Tonto on June 23, 2011, 07:12:35 PM
... the Orange Order played no part in causing or escalating the incident at Short Strand.
BTW, it's the GAA season too, isn't it? ??? ;)
And you try to claim you weren't insinuating that the GAA are an equivalent organisation to the Orange Order? Strange that three times you refer to in in reference to the Orange Order.
Do us all a favour and stop talking through your hole. As the old saying goes, "Never argue with a fool - they'll lower you to their level and then beat you with experience". So on that note - cheerio.
Nally I could have told you a long time ago that he was an asshole,ignore the p***k
As intelligent a post as one would expect from your good self.
Quote from: Evil Genius on June 24, 2011, 05:02:09 PM
Then again, it is hardly alone in that, I'd say... ;)
Indeed and touché for that.
Makes me wonder thought when chez-OWC Sickboy, Roger et al. get into a frenzy about that other "filthy" organisaton does Ealing Green jump in and point out:
" - but at the same time, I do not like to see a whole group of individuals demonised
en masse by people who are clearly entirely ignorant of the organisation and what it's all about."
Just a thought.............
/Jim.
Quote from: Tonto on June 24, 2011, 05:00:38 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
Tonto, it is not bigoted to say that a bigoted organisation is full of bigots! :D
And since you love wee analogies!
"The KKK are racist thugs, and I blame them for the racial abuse some footballers are getting from the terraces"
Tonto's response " What! Thats very bigoted what your saying, the KKK are responsible no more so that than the rainbow project are for footballers getting racial abuse"
Really? You would blame the KKK for ALL racist chanting at football matches? I didn't know that the small group from the deep south of the USA had such an influence in say, Poland.
No thats not what I said. I was merely making a mockery out of your attempt to absolve the OO from any responsibility for the trouble on the short strand. I deliberately picked the KKK as although they are so far removed from our society you couldn't prove that they have had no influence over racial abuse here or in Poland. Or could you? And furthermore why would you want to?
BTW I wouldn't say they are SMALL group. Neo Nazi groups are all connected
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 05:17:59 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 24, 2011, 05:00:38 PM
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 10:22:41 AM
Tonto, it is not bigoted to say that a bigoted organisation is full of bigots! :D
And since you love wee analogies!
"The KKK are racist thugs, and I blame them for the racial abuse some footballers are getting from the terraces"
Tonto's response " What! Thats very bigoted what your saying, the KKK are responsible no more so that than the rainbow project are for footballers getting racial abuse"
Really? You would blame the KKK for ALL racist chanting at football matches? I didn't know that the small group from the deep south of the USA had such an influence in say, Poland.
No thats not what I said. I was merely making a mockery out of your attempt to absolve the OO from any responsibility for the trouble on the short strand. I deliberately picked the KKK as although they are so far removed from our society you couldn't prove that they have had no influence over racial abuse here or in Poland. Or could you? And furthermore why would you want to?
BTW I wouldn't say they are SMALL group. Neo Nazi groups are all connected
But surely if my response was similar to what you said i.e. that the KK weren't to blame for all racist chanting that would be fair enough? Such a ridiculous way that you have tried to make your point!
(And they're tiny... apparently only a few thousand in the whole of the USA compared to MILLIONS when they were at their peak)
EG I have seen that program on the BBC which showed some of the good things the OO done in their own community. The bit about the old dolls was touching. I also know that 1000s of decent gentlemen have left their ranks in the last few decades because of some of the shenanigans they get up to. But if they dont want to be considered as bigots maybe they should start with a few rule changes. Thats start with members being allowed to attend Catholic mass.
EG, you are woefully wasting your talents on this board. A man with your remarkable ability to refurbish the image of a hateful horde has definite career opportunities here in the States. There are so many politicians whose shameful pasts need to be spun into acceptability that you could make a mint here.
You're so good you make me want to join the OO.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 24, 2011, 05:31:31 PM
EG, you are woefully wasting your talents on this board. A man with your remarkable ability to refurbish the image of a hateful horde has definite career opportunities here in the States. There are so many politicians whose shameful pasts need to be spun into acceptability that you could make a mint here.
You're so good you make me want to join the OO.
If your catholic you cant, but sssshhhhh they are not bigots ;)
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 05:30:23 PM
EG I have seen that program on the BBC which showed some of the good things the OO done in their own community. The bit about the old dolls was touching. I also know that 1000s of decent gentlemen have left their ranks in the last few decades because of some of the shenanigans they get up to. But if they dont want to be considered as bigots maybe they should start with a few rule changes. Thats start with members being allowed to attend Catholic mass.
Though I didn't see the TV programme you refer to, I am sure I agree with all of that (esp the bit in bold).
I am no apologist for the OO, nor never will be unless/until it goes about rooting out the troublemakers and bigots who inevitably destroy its reputation.
But as I say, I know and am friendly with many decent people who are Orangemen, who equally deplore the organisation's excesses, and who for a variety of reasons, are at a bit of a loss to know what to do about it.
And it is on their behalf that I took this present opportunity to point out that just like many groups, organisations or clubs etc, "Themmuns is NOT all the same".
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 24, 2011, 05:31:31 PM
EG, you are woefully wasting your talents on this board. A man with your remarkable ability to refurbish the image of a hateful horde has definite career opportunities here in the States. There are so many politicians whose shameful pasts need to be spun into acceptability that you could make a mint here.
You're so good you make me want to join the OO.
Er, it's not about me, it's about the issues.
Speaking of which, have you anything constructive to add?
No?
Thought not... ::)
Constructive? Constructive?
You have attempted to reconstruct the image of a thoroughly hateful organization, a clan that for half a century sought to keep Catholics like me disenfranchised, unemployed and in constant fear, the embodiment of everything vile in that god-forsaken and at the same time god-ridden hellhole of a creation, and you have the temerity to scold me for not having something constructive to say.
If being constructive involves whitewashing the image of the Orange Order, then give me destruction any day.
And on the topic of the thread, while the playful youth of East Belfast may not be throwing their own version of Belfast confetti on the people of the Short Strand bedecked in their orange horse collars, have no doubt that come the 11th night and 12th day they'll be there, every last one of their, singing their songs, making NI a Shangri La for papes.
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 24, 2011, 06:13:10 PM
Constructive? Constructive?
You have attempted to reconstruct the image of a thoroughly hateful organization, a clan that for half a century sought to keep Catholics like me disenfranchised, unemployed and in constant fear, the embodiment of everything vile in that god-forsaken and at the same time god-ridden hellhole of a creation, and you have the temerity to scold me for not having something constructive to say.
If being constructive involves whitewashing the image of the Orange Order, then give me destruction any day.
And on the topic of the thread, while the playful youth of East Belfast may not be throwing their own version of Belfast confetti on the people of the Short Strand bedecked in their orange horse collars, have no doubt that come the 11th night and 12th day they'll be there, every last one of their, singing their songs, making NI a Shangri La for papes.
Your (tediously predictable) rant is anything but "constructive", repeating as it does, the same, tired old stereotypes, vituperation and bile.
So if you truly want to be constructive, perhaps you might like to give your opinion on the following (it was in the previous post of mine which prompted your
ad hominem attack on me, btw):
30 members of the Riverbrooke Cross-Border Initiative based in County Sligo also arrived and were "intrigued" to catch their first Twelfth.
The group's project coordinator, John Deignan said they were "anxious and nervous" about coming to Fermanagh at first.
"Our members, are of course, predominately Catholic. They have stepped very much out of their comfort zones. Only one of our members has been to the Twelfth before," he said.
Riverbrooke (a wordplay of Brookeborough and Riverstown) came together 15 years ago with a view of looking at ways of bringing the two communities together. It has received funding through the Peace II Programme and the International Funding for Ireland and looks at working with all sections of the community, not just the Orange Order.
Monday's trip was to "educate" its members and according to Mr. Deignan, it worked: "Most of them have been left amazed by the warmth they've received here, overwhelmed by the number of bands taking part and surprised at the relaxed atmosphere. I'm shocked at how relaxed it is. There's not even a hint of trouble. If you wanted to start some trouble, you'd feel very much out of place. Coming to Brookeborough has left a positive feeling. I think as a result the people want to find out more about the Orange Order. On the news we don't hear about 400 people walking down the street peacefully, we just hear about two people knocking the heads of each other -- so being here has changed their perceptions," he said.In particular, I should be interested to hear your response to Mr. Deignan's comment when he said the visit to The Twelfth had "changed [his group's] perceptions".
(Of course, if you aren't actually interested in constructive debate, but just want to let off some steam, why don't you just retire to a darkened room with a dirty book and a box of Kleenex? I'm guessing that, er, relief would, ahem, come more quickly for you than by typing out a reply... :D)
Classy, EG. Very dignified,
Strange the Riverbrook crowd didn't go to an interface at Ardoyne or East Belfast or the Garvaghy road or Stoneyford or the likes to get a true feel. Genteel Fermanagh it is.
Why are there never any reports of riots in Donegal, Monaghan, Cavan, etc. when these lodges have their marches? Is it because they are afraid of their neighbours. Or is it because they respect them and realise that they are also their friends?What is so different in the northern part of our country, is it because they still want to dominate them? Answers on a stamp please. ???
Quote from: bennydorano on June 24, 2011, 08:19:38 PM
Strange the Riverbrook crowd didn't go to an interface at Ardoyne or East Belfast or the Garvaghy road or Stoneyford or the likes to get a true feel. Genteel Fermanagh it is.
Or any large town in the north. Police cordons, bandsmen bedecked in tattoos commemorating loyalist murder squads cheered on from the sidelines by feral Billys and Lillys tanked up on alcopops and a drug of their choice. Welcome to Orangefest - donations welcome.
For me being an active member of a sectarian organisation like the orange order is akin to being an active member of a church which covers up the deeds of paedophille rapists. Doesn't make each individual member a bad person but does make me wonder why a person would want to be any part of those organisation. Tradition/custom/tribe is the only reason I can up with
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 25, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
For me being an active member of a sectarian organisation like the orange order is akin to being an active member of a church which covers up the deeds of paedophille rapists. Doesn't make each individual member a bad person but does make me wonder why a person would want to be any part of those organisation. Tradition/custom/tribe is the only reason I can up with
That's a fair comment. I don't think anyone would deny that the Orange Order DOES have some total scumbags on its members list and the hangers on too. But that doesn't mean that the whole organisation should be lumped into one category. I wouldn't, for example, say that everyone who supports Celtic or Rangers is a sc**bag just because some of their fans are and, to use your example, obviously not every Catholic Priest is a paedo, that would be ridiculous to say. But uninformed judgements about the Orange being an "organisation filled with bigots" etc. etc. ad nauseum just shows the degree of prejudice that comes from BOTH sides of the community.
On your last point, my genuine feeling for the reasons that people join the Orange is probably the presence of one or more of the following; religion, culture, politics/unionism and family ties. And I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as they aren't hurting anyone else.
Quote from: HiMucker on June 24, 2011, 05:33:21 PM
Quote from: Oraisteach on June 24, 2011, 05:31:31 PM
EG, you are woefully wasting your talents on this board. A man with your remarkable ability to refurbish the image of a hateful horde has definite career opportunities here in the States. There are so many politicians whose shameful pasts need to be spun into acceptability that you could make a mint here.
You're so good you make me want to join the OO.
If your catholic you cant, but sssshhhhh they are not bigots ;)
I want to be a Catholic but can I stay Protestant too? You know what, fcuk it, I'll be a Muslim and a Jew all at the same time as well. By your reckoning all organisations founded on a religious base would be "bigots".
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 25, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
For me being an active member of a sectarian organisation like the orange order is akin to being an active member of a church which covers up the deeds of paedophille rapists. Doesn't make each individual member a bad person but does make me wonder why a person would want to be any part of those organisation. Tradition/custom/tribe is the only reason I can up with
That's a fair comment. I don't think anyone would deny that the Orange Order DOES have some total scumbags on its members list and the hangers on too. But that doesn't mean that the whole organisation should be lumped into one category. I wouldn't, for example, say that everyone who supports Celtic or Rangers is a sc**bag just because some of their fans are and, to use your example, obviously not every Catholic Priest is a paedo, that would be ridiculous to say. But uninformed judgements about the Orange being an "organisation filled with bigots" etc. etc. ad nauseum just shows the degree of prejudice that comes from BOTH sides of the community.
Thats not a fair point, its an absoljutely ridiculous point. Leaders of the catholic church may have covered up child abuse - that was their failing. The cathloic church as a whole doesnt promote or encourage child abuse. The orange order as a whole does promote and encourage sectarianism.
Quote from: haranguerer on June 25, 2011, 11:10:25 AM
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 25, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
For me being an active member of a sectarian organisation like the orange order is akin to being an active member of a church which covers up the deeds of paedophille rapists. Doesn't make each individual member a bad person but does make me wonder why a person would want to be any part of those organisation. Tradition/custom/tribe is the only reason I can up with
That's a fair comment. I don't think anyone would deny that the Orange Order DOES have some total scumbags on its members list and the hangers on too. But that doesn't mean that the whole organisation should be lumped into one category. I wouldn't, for example, say that everyone who supports Celtic or Rangers is a sc**bag just because some of their fans are and, to use your example, obviously not every Catholic Priest is a paedo, that would be ridiculous to say. But uninformed judgements about the Orange being an "organisation filled with bigots" etc. etc. ad nauseum just shows the degree of prejudice that comes from BOTH sides of the community.
Thats not a fair point, its an absoljutely ridiculous point. Leaders of the catholic church may have covered up child abuse - that was their failing. The cathloic church as a whole doesnt promote or encourage child abuse. The orange order as a whole does promote and encourage sectarianism.
That depends on your definition of sectarianism. The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation and promotes the Protestant faith just in the same way as any religious organisation promotes its own religion and, therefore, they could all be classed as "sectarian"; including the Catholic church.
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 11:18:15 AM
Quote from: haranguerer on June 25, 2011, 11:10:25 AM
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 10:48:55 AM
Quote from: mylestheslasher on June 25, 2011, 10:24:34 AM
For me being an active member of a sectarian organisation like the orange order is akin to being an active member of a church which covers up the deeds of paedophille rapists. Doesn't make each individual member a bad person but does make me wonder why a person would want to be any part of those organisation. Tradition/custom/tribe is the only reason I can up with
That's a fair comment. I don't think anyone would deny that the Orange Order DOES have some total scumbags on its members list and the hangers on too. But that doesn't mean that the whole organisation should be lumped into one category. I wouldn't, for example, say that everyone who supports Celtic or Rangers is a sc**bag just because some of their fans are and, to use your example, obviously not every Catholic Priest is a paedo, that would be ridiculous to say. But uninformed judgements about the Orange being an "organisation filled with bigots" etc. etc. ad nauseum just shows the degree of prejudice that comes from BOTH sides of the community.
Thats not a fair point, its an absoljutely ridiculous point. Leaders of the catholic church may have covered up child abuse - that was their failing. The cathloic church as a whole doesnt promote or encourage child abuse. The orange order as a whole does promote and encourage sectarianism.
That depends on your definition of sectarianism. The Orange Order is a Protestant organisation and promotes the Protestant faith just in the same way as any religious organisation promotes its own religion and, therefore, they could all be classed as "sectarian"; including the Catholic church.
Which is pedantic so as to try and cloud the issue, and irrelevant anyway to the point I'm making, (also, the poster originally makes a distinction between a 'sectarian organisation' and the catholic church - surely a better opportunity to pull him on that?).
Myles used the 'bad apples in every bunch' argument by referencing the abuse in the catholic church against the general activities of the orange order. My point is that they arent comparable, because child abuse isnt part of the general activities of the catholic church.
Quote(also, the poster originally makes a distinction between a 'sectarian organisation' and the catholic church - surely a better opportunity to pull him on that?).
Possibly, but I don't pick apart every part of every sentence; I thought the general point he was making was fair enough.
Quotechild abuse isnt part of the general activities of the catholic church.
That's true, but is 'sectarianism' not part of the general activities of the Catholic Church and every religious organisation?
Gotta love the OO apologists. Would argue a black crow's white. ::)
Quote from: fitzroyalty on June 25, 2011, 04:22:48 PM
Gotta love the OO apologists. Would argue a black crow's white. ::)
Tell me what I've said that isn't true.
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 03:08:12 PM
Quote(also, the poster originally makes a distinction between a 'sectarian organisation' and the catholic church - surely a better opportunity to pull him on that?).
Possibly, but I don't pick apart every part of every sentence; I thought the general point he was making was fair enough.
Quotechild abuse isnt part of the general activities of the catholic church.
That's true, but is 'sectarianism' not part of the general activities of the Catholic Church and every religious organisation?
This is pointless, you are deliberately ignoring the main point of the post (or else too stupid to recognise it) which is that it
isnt a like comparision to compare the cover-up of abuse in the catholic church because that isnt its main activity and aim, with the activities of the orange order.
Thats a few times I've restated it, yet you persist with your own imbecilic twist on what defines sectariansim. How many religous organisations encourage bigotry? How many preach directly against another religion? Only the OO that I know of (although you could probably prove me wrong by naming a few islamic fanatical groups if you wish).
QuoteThis is pointless, you are deliberately ignoring the main point of the post (or else too stupid to recognise it) which is that it isnt a like comparision to compare the cover-up of abuse in the catholic church because that isnt its main activity and aim, with the activities of the orange order.
You'll notice that I didn't mention child abuse in my last post. ::)
QuoteThats a few times I've restated it, yet you persist with your own imbecilic twist on what defines sectariansim. How many religous organisations encourage bigotry? How many preach directly against another religion? Only the OO that I know of (although you could probably prove me wrong by naming a few islamic fanatical groups if you wish).
Why don't you tell me what you mean by 'sectarianism' then? And what,
exactly, do the OO preach against another religion?
Quote from: haranguerer on June 25, 2011, 05:43:13 PM
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 03:08:12 PM
Quote(also, the poster originally makes a distinction between a 'sectarian organisation' and the catholic church - surely a better opportunity to pull him on that?).
Possibly, but I don't pick apart every part of every sentence; I thought the general point he was making was fair enough.
Quotechild abuse isnt part of the general activities of the catholic church.
That's true, but is 'sectarianism' not part of the general activities of the Catholic Church and every religious organisation?
This is pointless, you are deliberately ignoring the main point of the post (or else too stupid to recognise it) which is that it isnt a like comparision to compare the cover-up of abuse in the catholic church because that isnt its main activity and aim, with the activities of the orange order.
Thats a few times I've restated it, yet you persist with your own imbecilic twist on what defines sectariansim. How many religous organisations encourage bigotry? How many preach directly against another religion? Only the OO that I know of (although you could probably prove me wrong by naming a few islamic fanatical groups if you wish).
Directly or indirectly, I'd say that covers nearly every religion in the world. The Catholic Church is up there with the best of them. It's only a generation or two ago that the Catholic Church taught as part of the catechism that 'there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church'. If that's not encouragement to the faithful to view the rest of humanity as slightly less proper than themselves, I don't know what is. Even today you'll hear catholics describe someone outside the faith as a 'non catholic'. So the whole world divides into just two groups, catholics and 'non catholics'!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on June 25, 2011, 08:24:46 PM
Quote from: haranguerer on June 25, 2011, 05:43:13 PM
How many religous organisations encourage bigotry? How many preach directly against another religion? Only the OO that I know of (although you could probably prove me wrong by naming a few islamic fanatical groups if you wish).
Directly or indirectly, I'd say that covers nearly every religion in the world. The Catholic Church is up there with the best of them. It's only a generation or two ago that the Catholic Church taught as part of the catechism that 'there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church'. If that's not encouragement to the faithful to view the rest of humanity as slightly less proper than themselves, I don't know what is. Even today you'll hear catholics describe someone outside the faith as a 'non catholic'. So the whole world divides into just two groups, catholics and 'non catholics'!
Now, now Myles, that might have been the case with Roman Catholicism in the dim and distant past, but I'm sure the present Pope would never tolerate that sort of bigoted thinking by his organisation...
"THE Vatican has described the Protestant and Orthodox faiths as "not proper churches" in a document issued with the full authority of the Pope.
Anglican leaders reacted with dismay, accusing the Roman Catholic Church of paradoxical behaviour.
Protestants at the evangelical end of the Anglican spectrum accused the Vatican of a "lust for power" and of using such arguments historically to divide Christians, "persecute them and even put them to death".
They said that the new 16-page document outlining the "defects" of non-Catholic churches constituted a serious obstacle to ecumenism.
The document said the Orthodox Church suffered from a "wound" because it did not recognise the primacy of the Pope. The wound was "still more profound" in Protestant denominations, it added.
It was "difficult to see how the title of 'Church' could possibly be attributed to them", said the statement from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Roman Catholicism was "the one true Church of Christ".
The language echoes earlier statements by the same body, headed by Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger until he became Pope."http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/vatican-accused-of-lust-for-power/story-e6frg6so-1111113939355
Quote from: Tonto on June 25, 2011, 05:48:37 PMAnd what, exactly, do the OO preach against another religion?
Oh come on. Not exactly hard to find examples.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxEjzSlbHvY
Can anyone throw light on the point Newton Emerson made in the IN on sat regarding the 80million "social investment fund" and his opinion that the UVF, by kicking off these riots, were essentially were making a grant application?
Why is there not more investigations into what these type of incidents are about. Instead we get vague comments about "dealing with the issues" without details of what these really are.
Are we going to perpetually encouraging these fcuks to keep doing what they are do every time they lose their "funding"?
Quote from: theskull1 on June 26, 2011, 08:26:19 PM
Can anyone throw light on the point Newton Emerson made in the IN on sat regarding the 80million "social investment fund" and his opinion that the UVF, by kicking off these riots, were essentially were making a grant application?
Why is there not more investigations into what these type of incidents are about. Instead we get vague comments about "dealing with the issues" without details of what these really are.
Are we going to perpetually encouraging these fcuks to keep doing what they are do every time they lose their "funding"?
That £80m slush fund is basically for SF and DUP to divvy up with their mates in the "community
sector".
Quote from: theskull1 on June 26, 2011, 08:26:19 PM
Can anyone throw light on the point Newton Emerson made in the IN on sat regarding the 80million "social investment fund" and his opinion that the UVF, by kicking off these riots, were essentially were making a grant application?
Why is there not more investigations into what these type of incidents are about. Instead we get vague comments about "dealing with the issues" without details of what these really are.
Are we going to perpetually encouraging these fcuks to keep doing what they are do every time they lose their "funding"?
That sorta stuff has been happening for years, the Peace fund is nearly dried up, the European money is long gone and a few of the other package deals are nearly all gone. Was offered a job in one of the 'Partnerships' a few years ago. The office where I was supposed to work on the Falls has changed it's name about 6 times in those years!!
Cant say i care too much or give much thought to what the Orange Order get up to or what their policies are. Could be wrong on this, but do the not forbid any member from marrying a catholic? Do they not forbid any member from attending a catholic mass? Not sure if these rules apply to any other religion or whether its just catholicism that their hatred is reserved for but for any idiot to suggest these rules are not sectarian is f***ing brain dead and not worth wasting time on.
To suggest the catholic religion (which i am no big fan off either) applies the same rules is ridiculous
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 26, 2011, 09:00:27 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on June 26, 2011, 08:26:19 PM
Can anyone throw light on the point Newton Emerson made in the IN on sat regarding the 80million "social investment fund" and his opinion that the UVF, by kicking off these riots, were essentially were making a grant application?
Why is there not more investigations into what these type of incidents are about. Instead we get vague comments about "dealing with the issues" without details of what these really are.
Are we going to perpetually encouraging these fcuks to keep doing what they are do every time they lose their "funding"?
That sorta stuff has been happening for years, the Peace fund is nearly dried up, the European money is long gone and a few of the other package deals are nearly all gone. Was offered a job in one of the 'Partnerships' a few years ago. The office where I was supposed to work on the Falls has changed it's name about 6 times in those years!!
It hasnt gone yet. The begging bowl is still out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13919416
The European commissioner for regional policy has said he will do everything in his power to ensure Northern Ireland gets another tranche of peace money.
Johannes Hahn was speaking after a meeting with the first and deputy first ministers at the opening of the new bridge over the River Foyle on Saturday.
The money for the bridge came from the 333m euro (£295.5m) Peace 3 programme.
Commissioner Hahn said he would work towards making more money available.
"I will do everything to make sure that the money will be available in the future," he said.
"But as you might have heard, the British government is not in favour of spending a lot of money on European projects.
"We hope that at the end of the day we will find a positive solution so that all these projects can continue and further contribute to the development of the region."
Quote from: Minder on June 26, 2011, 10:12:05 PM
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on June 26, 2011, 09:00:27 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on June 26, 2011, 08:26:19 PM
Can anyone throw light on the point Newton Emerson made in the IN on sat regarding the 80million "social investment fund" and his opinion that the UVF, by kicking off these riots, were essentially were making a grant application?
Why is there not more investigations into what these type of incidents are about. Instead we get vague comments about "dealing with the issues" without details of what these really are.
Are we going to perpetually encouraging these fcuks to keep doing what they are do every time they lose their "funding"?
That sorta stuff has been happening for years, the Peace fund is nearly dried up, the European money is long gone and a few of the other package deals are nearly all gone. Was offered a job in one of the 'Partnerships' a few years ago. The office where I was supposed to work on the Falls has changed it's name about 6 times in those years!!
It hasnt gone yet. The begging bowl is still out.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-13919416
The European commissioner for regional policy has said he will do everything in his power to ensure Northern Ireland gets another tranche of peace money.
Johannes Hahn was speaking after a meeting with the first and deputy first ministers at the opening of the new bridge over the River Foyle on Saturday.
The money for the bridge came from the 333m euro (£295.5m) Peace 3 programme.
Commissioner Hahn said he would work towards making more money available.
"I will do everything to make sure that the money will be available in the future," he said.
"But as you might have heard, the British government is not in favour of spending a lot of money on European projects.
"We hope that at the end of the day we will find a positive solution so that all these projects can continue and further contribute to the development of the region."
Let the good times roll
This European "peace" money is great crack.
The money must have ran out last week and a top up was sent for.
We'll have to get a wee schemozzle going down our way here - it can't all be going to the city folk.
Whenever we see the way that scumbags "intelligently" engineer problems to ensure they don't have to normalise themselves with the rest of society (i.e go out and work for it), serious questions need to be asked of our political representatives who are essential feeding a very unhealthy addiction within these communities. What chance do communities have when the scumbags in those areas are the ones seen to be benefitting from their own destructive behaviour?
Why is there no serious commentary about what the UVF are doing here? Are the DUP & SF happy to silience them by paying them off for a while longer because to call it like it is may shine a light on the other areas when this type of funding is going?
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/inquiry-into-high-kings-death-threat-2806272.html
Newtownbutler are gearing up for the Silly Season... :-\
Yes, Fitzroyalty, it's not quite July yet, but I'd say we're off and running.
First the Short Strand and, say it ain't so, Newtownbutler, Fermanagh.
WWJD? (Well, well, John Deignan? John being EG's Sligonian who was both intrigued and delighted by his Club Orange RiverBrooke experience)
Perhaps a July itinerary of all the hot spots (pardon the pun) would be in order, John.
Where next, I wonder.
Lets keep following the money here people. Can we have more comments in regards to scumbags trying to get there hands on peace money
Quote from: theskull1 on June 27, 2011, 10:16:09 PMLets keep following the money here people. Can we have more comments in regards to scumbags trying to get there hands on peace money
I'm disgusted that the best comment on this whole public disgrace has gone unheeded:
Wednesday, 29 June 2011
UVF jail call after riots
A call has been made for active members of the UVF - released from prison early under the Good Friday Agreement - to be sent back behind bars, in the wake of riots in east Belfast.
Chairman of the Police Federation, Terry Spence, has called for action to be taken by the Secretary of State against the proscribed organisation.
"We cannot tolerate paramilitary groups creating public havoc because they think they have no voice in how Northern Ireland is governed," he said.
"They have exactly the same access to the ballot box and opportunity to stand for election as the rest of us."http://www.u.tv/News/Police-Federation-chief-demands-UVF-arrests/c58b4d42-96d2-486a-9277-93e69f88b9e6
Quote from: Evil Genius on July 07, 2011, 03:05:42 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on June 27, 2011, 10:16:09 PMLets keep following the money here people. Can we have more comments in regards to scumbags trying to get there hands on peace money
I'm disgusted that the best comment on this whole public disgrace has gone unheeded:
Probably ended their association with this thread after I used "there" instead of "their". There are people of rail principal when it comes to spelling/grammatical errors like that. Fair play :-\
Just how many orginisations/people are getting their hands on these monies? Is anyone able to elucidate.