Poll
Question:
Would you vote to allow Croke Park to become the National Stadium?
Option 1: Yes
votes: 30
Option 2: No
votes: 117
It's a firm No for me...
no
NO!!
Its fine as it is.... The national GAA stadium!!!!
NO!
No way. Yeah and what the fcuk is a "National Stadium" - . Surely the new Lansdowne (can't see it being built) won't be one due to its failure to accommodate our national games and of course athletics.
NEVER NEVER NEVER >:(
If the terms are right-YES
No, and can the professionals please stop begging off the amateurs!
No. But I can't see it not being the National Stadium. Especially if the media latch on to the bandwagon.
The carrot that will be dangled in front of the GAA by the end of next year will be to let Croke Park become a national stadium with a retractable roof and the completion of the hill covered, not seated.
Quote from: full back on March 01, 2007, 10:55:34 AM
If the terms are right-YES
Full back,
But, if it's a
National Stadium, then the three major sporting organisations will have equal call on it, therefore gaelic games will be denied use when they might otherwise have had free reign, therefore how could the terms ever be right in such a circumstance?
I haven't voted, because it depends what's meant by 'national stadium' and what the terms would be.
Jaysus lads,
have ye lost the plot, it should not even be open to question, but thats what the GAA has left itself open to after the last couple of sundays
Definite and strong NO!
Croke Park is being used at the moment for Soccer and Rugby and that should stay as a temporary arrangement.
No way should the IRFU and FAI get to stay in Croke Park for any longer than has already been agreed.
No Soccer or Rugby in Croke Park after 2008. Let them work on landsdown road or build the new stadium in Abbotstown. Being professional and with support from the government and businesses they have no excuses.
Bertie should have gone ahead with Abbotstown it in the first place instead of listening to the media.
There should be absolutely no question anyway
Iit depends as Hardy said on the terms being offered...
1 - A valuation of the stadium being done - approx 450m eg and we receive 150m each from the IRFU/FAI....(contribution to cover the costs they save in building stadium)
2 - All money from above to be used to provide counties with a centre of excellence including artificial pitches, hurling walls, handball alleys, floodlights etc...
3 - Rugby would only need it during Feb/March and Nov when no GAA matches affected..
4 - FAI would be given a calender of GAA events and not allowed use it on them dates...
No definitely not...
No
No, we'd lose control of our own stadium.
We all have big ideas of money coming back down the way and Dubsforsam1, you make some great points. But in the real world money only goes one direction in our association and thats up. Our club recently got a piece of land and made two new fields, officially being opened later this year. It was easier to get money from the NIO than it was from Croker.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 01, 2007, 11:05:31 AM
Quote from: full back on March 01, 2007, 10:55:34 AM
If the terms are right-YES
Full back,
But, if it's a National Stadium, then the three major sporting organisations will have equal call on it, therefore gaelic games will be denied use when they might otherwise have had free reign, therefore how could the terms ever be right in such a circumstance?
By terms I meant that it can be used as the National stadia providing it doesnt interfere with the GAA calendar during the course of the year.
If the rent is used correctly over the years & filtered through the system to grass roots it can only benefit all of us. FFS in Armagh, clubs have to give the county board £4000 a year. To certain clubs this is a big chunk to pay before a ball is even kicked.
With clubs having more spare capital, hopefully facilities will improve, therefore attracting more youngsters.It may sound a bit far fetched but we have to look for the future.
I dont believe this bullsh1t of the GAA promoting other sports by renting CP out.As previous posters have said, while any National team are excelling at a particular sport there will always be an explosion of interest & the media spotlight will shine on them for a period, but not I believe to the detriment of GAA.
The GAA hasnt unduly suffered in recent years as a result of the soccer team doing well in the late 80's early 90's
No. I don't believe the IRFU and FAI have the right to become permanent tenants. The people of the GAA have worked long and hard to make Croke Park the fantastic stadium that it now is. Croke Park is home to Gaelic sports not all sports.
While in favour of a temporary opening of Croke Park to accommodate the IRFU and FAI while Lansdowne Road (should be) developed, I would not be right now in favour of seeing Croke Park become the "National Stadium" in the long term. The GAA should make it clear that if work on Lansdowne starts before the end of the year, 2009 tenancy is a possible option but not beyond it and if not, make it clear that 2008 will be the last year, then find somewhere else.
To me Croke Park is now turning into J B Keane's "Field".
For years the GAA has been cultivating a small plot of land and nurturing it from the barren rock of oppression into a fertile field of dreams through the sweat and blood of many Bull McCabes.
But the widow Kelly has now decided to sell up and "outside forces are attempting to come in and take what is rightfully ours" as the Bull points out.
Yes I know how it all ended, but before anyone jumps on the unappeasable hunger for land angle and who has the moral right to it, remember that we who have opposed the opening (let alone making it the national stadium) have been demonised as much as Keane demonised the Bull McCabe.
Yes this is a fight about the need for change but by god I am on the Bull's side on this one.
I sometimes feel like the Bull who has been denied his conjugal rights for 18 years for having the cheek to shoot a t**ker's donkey. "I put in electric light and bought the television. I built that goddam bathroom for her" but still it is not enough.
How many more changes to our rules and erosion of our values must we face before the field becomes just another souless, commercial, pragmatic nonentity.
Quote from: full back on March 01, 2007, 12:49:31 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 01, 2007, 11:05:31 AM
Quote from: full back on March 01, 2007, 10:55:34 AM
If the terms are right-YES
Full back,
But, if it's a National Stadium, then the three major sporting organisations will have equal call on it, therefore gaelic games will be denied use when they might otherwise have had free reign, therefore how could the terms ever be right in such a circumstance?
By terms I meant that it can be used as the National stadia providing it doesnt interfere with the GAA calendar during the course of the year.
If the rent is used correctly over the years & filtered through the system to grass roots it can only benefit all of us. FFS in Armagh, clubs have to give the county board £4000 a year. To certain clubs this is a big chunk to pay before a ball is even kicked.
With clubs having more spare capital, hopefully facilities will improve, therefore attracting more youngsters.It may sound a bit far fetched but we have to look for the future.
I dont believe this bullsh1t of the GAA promoting other sports by renting CP out.As previous posters have said, while any National team are excelling at a particular sport there will always be an explosion of interest & the media spotlight will shine on them for a period, but not I believe to the detriment of GAA.
The GAA hasnt unduly suffered in recent years as a result of the soccer team doing well in the late 80's early 90's
But, as a
National Stadium, it no longer belongs to the GAA, it's the
Nation's that's the whole issue, and therefore the GAA cannot dictate unequal terms. It cannot be a
half-National or pseudo-National stadium; a
National Stadium is the whole hog.
Dubsforsam,
you're on the right track.
For Croker to be the National Stadium, all 4 stakeholders, ie Govt(Nation) / GAA / IRFU / FAI have to contribute.
The three sports bodies must contribute equally.
The existing rental deal is not a basis for Croker to be used on a permanent basis by IRFU / FAI.
I have long advocated tha we should sell it the nation, because once we lost Croker as an exclusive marketing tool, there was absolutely no benefit to us holding onto it, especially when
1. others make more from it at the minute than we do on a per match basis.
2. we are in dire need of developing new clubs and getting new recruits in urban areas.
There are further benefits
a. at present there is no economic case for the GAA to complete the stadium by developing Hill 16 to match the rest of the stadium.
The Govt could use national pride as a reason and bankroll it. Architecturally, and capacity-wise Croker would be amazing.
The Govt could compulsorily purcahse the houses behind the hill, and rebuild equivalent homes in the college grounds (allegedly the Catholic Church once promised the grounds to the nation as compensation for the child abuse settlement). Th e rest of the grounds could be used to rehouse the school (see below) and creeate a new park for Drumcondrians in memory of their beloved Bertie.
b. the Govt could improve access to Croker by relocating the O'Connell schools, recreating the area as a huge plaza for people to congregate before matches.
c. Transport could be improved as well.
d. the FAI get an accurate return on what they hve invested in stadium development, yep, that's right sweet fa.
Negatives:
a. Undoubtably the GPA would exert huge pressure to get its hands on the hundreds of millions delivered to the GAA.
b. IRFU could flog lansdowne for a fortune, and bankroll an expansion programme of its own, eating into GAA strongholds.
Most of us (those of us living in the dark ages, according to some!!!) have moved on regarding our views on Croke Park being opened up but making it the National Stadium is totally out of the question.
Voted No on this one, the GAA should hold on to exclusive ownership of the stadium.
In no way should we contemplate the use of Croke Park as the National Stadium, those who suggest that we sell it to the Govt. have'nt thought it through IMO. If we sell it then we lose control of it, simple as that. There would be no preferential treatment of the GAA, Lansdowne road could be sold for €1 billion and the FAI would have as much right to play friendlies there when they wanted as we would club finals or big league games etc.Who knows what the future holds for the various sports but as long as we own Croke Park we have an arena for our games and a symbol of our success
Wtf is a national "stadium" anyhow? Can anyone name a (real) country that has one of these things i.e. a single pitch used by the international teams of several different sports? I don't think such a thing exists.
It was built by the GAA for the GAA.
Quote from: Star Spangler on March 01, 2007, 02:22:19 PM
Wtf is a national "stadium" anyhow? Can anyone name a (real) country that has one of these things i.e. a single pitch used by the international teams of several different sports? I don't think such a thing exists.
Wales?
Stade de france?
Aussie Stadium, Telstradome, MCG, Subiaco... ::)
QuoteIt was built by the GAA for the GAA.
So what? my house was built for a Mr Burrows, but he sold it and moved on to buy something else.
For the hard of thinking / laterally challenged, if the GAA sold it to the Govt, they would obviously do so with the caveat that it was ringfenced for the AI Semi and Finals and possibly Leinster final.
I didn't think I would have to explain that one.
westmayo, re
QuoteVoted No on this one, the GAA should hold on to exclusive ownership of the stadium.
why? what reasons?
Firmly in the NO camp on this one.
I was and still am to a point in favour of helping out the neighbours in the current temporary little arrangement till they rebuild their own house( if ???).
However there is no gain whatsoever to be had by the GAA for handing over it's National HQ to the Government or whoever to be shared with all sports. Presumably an athletic track would also have to be put in.
Can you imagine (some time in the distant fuure mind you) the Irish Soccer team having a last round World Cup/European Qualifier v France/Germany /Italy etc in late September - what media etc pressure would come on the GAA to put back the All Ireland Final "in the National Interest?
QuotePresumably an athletic track would also have to be put in.
Actually, just fyi, Croker has been designed from the outset to allow the easy provision of an athletics track. The front concrete rows are removable. Do a google to find out more.
QuoteCan you imagine (some time in the distant fuure mind you) the Irish Soccer team having a last round World Cup/European Qualifier v France/Germany /Italy etc in late September - what media etc pressure would come on the GAA to put back the All Ireland Final "in the National Interest?
If the GAA membership has learnt anything from the giveaway rental agreement, it should be to have faith in what is really good for the GAA, and not what the media tell us. We won't fall for such a crap deal again.
Quote from: Star Spangler on March 01, 2007, 02:22:19 PM
Wtf is a national "stadium" anyhow? Can anyone name a (real) country that has one of these things i.e. a single pitch used by the international teams of several different sports? I don't think such a thing exists.
Mmmm, feel a bit sheepish now Star Spangler :D
I think the Reverend sums up my view on this issue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uHhLe6WE0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d9uHhLe6WE0)
Id consider selling Croke Park to the government and developing the county grounds, clubs and kids around ireland with the windfall.. Whilst retaining the rights to play semi finals and finals at the stadium. The stadium itself is concrete the GAA are people.
While I am in agreement with the renting out of Croke Park to IRFU and FAI I am not in agreement with the sale of Croke Park to the State or it becoming the National Stadium.
My view is that the rental Agreement should be put into place for a designated period of say 25 years. The terms of this are reviewable ever 5 years to facilitate increase in rent etc. The rent should be higher than it currently is. The have been figures floating about in regards to the cost of rebuilding Landsdowne. What I would argue is that a large proportion of that be provided to the GAA as a sweetener for allowing Croke Park to be used. One of the smaller soccer stadiums could be upgraded to 40k capacity. If a crowd is going to be bigger than that then CP should be used.
Landsdowne Road should be sold and the proceeds divided between the interested parties accordingly. For rugby games that will be less than the minimum amount for Croke Park, then the New stadium in the north would be use or perhaps Thomaond if the capacity was sufficient.
The rest of the money that is being svaed from not rebuilding Landsdowne could be directed towards other sports such as athletics which are dying on their feet and swimming.
bc1,
QuoteThe rent should be higher than it currently is.
It should, but the IRFU / FAI won't countenance paying any extra. they'd rather piss off to Britain.
QuoteOne of the smaller soccer stadiums could be upgraded to 40k capacity.
I don't know what smaller soccer stadium you are referring to.
I would suggest that an additional 35/40k capacity stadiumk could be developed by the GAA in Leinster. Let the FAI / IRFU worry about theirown lesser requiremetns.
QuoteLandsdowne Road should be sold and the proceeds divided between the interested parties accordingly.
Parties concerned? What are you on about. The IRFU own it. Just as we would get the monies form the sale of Croekr, the IRFU would get the proceeds from lansdowne.
Reflect on my first post - selling Croker is the only way we get anything tangible out of this situation.
Renting is just giving away our assets to tothers who gain more than ourselves.
Don't see the point in selling it, what happens when the monies recieved are spent and are all gone? Hard to believe that any sum recieved will be spent so wisely that we wont have to worry about anything ever again.
That's an argument for refusing to take the money if you won the lottery.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 04:14:39 PM
That's an argument for refusing to take the money if you won the lottery.
You stake a pound or couple of Euro on the lotto, not a few hundred million. ;)
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 01, 2007, 11:05:19 AM
The carrot that will be dangled in front of the GAA by the end of next year will be to let Croke Park become a national stadium with a retractable roof and the completion of the hill covered, not seated.
But we don't need a roof, our games are played in the summer! No lads this is madness even contemplating this, its our head quarters, our national symbol the jewel in the GAA crown. Anyway we'd only be allowing the IRFU to cash in on Lansdowne to the tune of circa €1 Billion Euros, we'd be eat alive if they had that financial mussel behind them. Stand fast lads!
Quote from: snatter on March 01, 2007, 02:38:33 PM
QuoteIt was built by the GAA for the GAA.
So what? my house was built for a Mr Burrows, but he sold it and moved on to buy something else.
For the hard of thinking / laterally challenged, if the GAA sold it to the Govt, they would obviously do so with the caveat that it was ringfenced for the AI Semi and Finals and possibly Leinster final.
I didn't think I would have to explain that one.
westmayo, re QuoteVoted No on this one, the GAA should hold on to exclusive ownership of the stadium.
why? what reasons?
What happens all the other competitions that are held then like club championships, nicky rackard, christy ring, tommy murphy etc.....what if they clash with another soccer/rugby fixture?
Those taking part in those competitions have every right and aspire to play in croke park...are you suggesting that the home of the gaa should shun these players and deny them a chance of there day in croker because ireland are playing a friendly agaisnt new zealand etc?
A firm no from me the whole thing is a shambles at the minute as someone else said built by the gaa for the gaa.
A stadium we can call our own! (sound like a harp ad here lol)
a yes from me
the place as has become despoilt by last weeks carnival. I say sell it to the government for a huge wad at least 600 million and build as many class 30/40,000 seat stadiums as you can for it possibly 6 or 8 and rent the national stadium when it is need for finals and football semis
what is the point in having so much capital tied up in a part time rugby pitch?
QuoteWhat happens all the other competitions that are held then like club championships, nicky rackard, christy ring, tommy murphy etc
we play them in smaller, re atmospheric venues.
And guess what, they'll be top class too, upgraded with the return on Croker.
There you go, better smaller stadia, new urban clubs AND WE STILL USE CROKER WHEN WE NEED IT.
WIN WIN WIN WIN.
HQ should wake up and start negotiating a sale. At the very least start to spin the idea.
THe general public need to be reminded that until they pay us for it, it's not a national stadium.
With all the media euphoria over hte last few weeks, it wouldn't surprise me if most of teh non-gaa public has forgotten who actually owns it at present.
rosnarun,
Quotewhat is the point in having so much capital tied up in a part time rugby pitch?
That sums it up perfectly.
that sums it up for me too. Lets pay for the stadium as we use it the same as soccor and rugby. Lets take out our capital. Now that we have got rid of any sort of principled background / hangups to the stadium we should use it to improve our third world county facilities and club coaching structure. I think the GAA should look at ensuring each county puts a business plan together for a sensible 10 - 20 000 stadium with covered spectator areas and floodlights. not the concrete jungles we see. Omagh I believe is going the righ way but in needs 3 more roofs... The Limerick grounds I believe and Castlebar have went the wrong way - too big I love sitting in the rain... And we should ensure a full time professional coaching structure for our clubs. provide each club with qualified professional coaches for an hour and an half per team per week.. After that the amateur coaches and management of each club kicks in.
I agree, we should milk the soccer/rugby cash cow as long as possible, but the money has to be filtered back to club level. The ordinary club man is still forking out for club facilities, not Croke Park as they would have you believe. My own club had to go scrounging to the English lotto for funds for a 1/2 size training pitch cos the "grant" from GAA wouldn't have paid for the posts!
We all pay over the odds for County tickets and are getting very little return where it's needed most. I agree that the plans for Omagh are welcome, but why is the bulk of meaningful Croker grants stopping at county level?
If a programme to fund clubs properly was started then the "where does the money go" and "should we open Croker" debates would disappear very quickly.
After all, the ordinary clubmen in this country paid for Croke Park in the first place, now the dividends should go back to the investors.
I'd sooner rip my eyes out with a spoon.
The ones advocating it are the same ones that would sell their Granny.
"build as many class 30/40,000 seat stadiums as you can for it possibly 6 or 8 and rent the national stadium when it is need for finals and football semis"
Sorry cant't see the point of this or snatters argument, if we sell it then we can't do so on the grounds that we get it when we need it. To think that the other sports bodies would accept that is delusional. Why argue to sell it, then put that money into 6/8 other grounds which won't be fully utilized then pay to use Croke Park for all Dublins championship games, the football semis, prob. one of the hurling semis and both finals. One another point as far as I'm aware Croke Park makes more money from non-GAA activities such as concerts and conferences etc. we would this revenue stream also. Like I said before, an opinion not thought through.
Over my dead body.
pints i was firmly in the no camp, but If im forced to watch 2 teams renting out a facility that we have 600 million invested of our GAAs money in, then who has it right the amateur organisation or the pros. That 600 million could help me put an extra pitch around my club, it could help me watch Tyrone without the rain, it could help our club have a professional evening coach 3 nights a week... dont woirry you could still got to Croker to watch Tyrone if you want to in an All Ireland final.. Croke Park is now bigger than I want the GAA to be, I see the GAA as being my club and my county, my affinity with Croke Park is gone, and instead of being a magnificent testament to the spirit of volunteerism is best described as the third biggest sports stadium in Europe.
I can't believe as many as 19 people have voted yes to date.
For years the GAA was laughed at by the 'professional' sports in Ireland. Soccer and Rugby had an air of superiority about them, with their noses turned up at 'bogball'.
While soccer was busy pissing away it's money on diva players and rugby was doing with their money, whatever they do with it, the GAA built one of the greatest stadiums in Europe and quite possibilty the greatest amature stadium on the planet.
What happened next, the GAA turned from a laughstock in their eyes to begrudgers who wouldn't opened their doors to them, whilst their own stadium was falling down around them. We let them in, which was a huge gesture from the GAA. One I did not agreed with, but abided with because the Association voted in favour with.
What is happening now? There is pressure coming that the Croke Park become a National Stadium forever more. Abeit it, only a small voice.. but that voice willl get louder and more frequent. Wait until 2008 and they are looking to extend to 2009. And 2009 to 2010. The snowball has started, stop it before it gets too big.
If some of the posters here at their way, then in a few years clubs like Owen Roe in Coleraine and Greencastle in Tyrone will never get a chance to play in Croke Park. Instead it will be deemed to expensive to open the Park and will be played in a less deserving venue.
It's a NO for from me and it should be a NO from all GAA members.
Ziggy that horse has bolted - Its an amazing stadium tht stood for a lot, but today stands for a lot less. If our principles were wrong they were wrong but they were principles, now sell er ta fook, Ill get more buzz from a b championship winning club u16 team.
Do you remember sitiing in the cusack watching a game and also the hogan being redeveloped, and vis-a-versa? Was Croke park ever closed down to games due to the redevelopment? Why can't the rugby boys do the same?
I think those TDs calling for it to be the national stadium must be very secure of their seats. Vote no for those who say it should be a national stadium.
Quote from: ardal on March 01, 2007, 08:14:08 PM
Do you remember sitiing in the cusack watching a game and also the hogan being redeveloped, and vis-a-versa? Was Croke park ever closed down to games due to the redevelopment? Why can't the rugby boys do the same?
I've fond wondered why they can't do the same. I guess we aren't as civilised as the Rugby and Soccer folk. :-\
Quote from: snatter on March 01, 2007, 05:10:44 PM
rosnarun,
Quotewhat is the point in having so much capital tied up in a part time rugby pitch?
That sums it up perfectly.
Jeez lads, is that all it comes down to in the end, capital? Money?
Croke is still ours, it's still a Gaelic Games stadium (with mendicant professional, though temporary, tenants of late), and it represents so much more than money, or material, of any kind can or ever could. The money accrued from its sale will be accrued by the association anyway. OK, it'll take it a little longer, but at least we will have arrived with our soul fully intact, and not as a spiritually bankrupt and empty parody of what we once were.
realredhandfan
Quote
pints i was firmly in the no camp, but If im forced to watch 2 teams renting out a facility that we have 600 million invested of our GAAs money in, then who has it right the amateur organisation or the pros.
Um the amateur organisation, how could you think the professional organistion have it right?
Quote
That 600 million could help me put an extra pitch around my club, it could help me watch Tyrone without the rain, it could help our club have a professional evening coach 3 nights a week... dont woirry you could still got to Croker to watch Tyrone if you want to in an All Ireland final..
But the stadium wouldn't be ours.
QuoteCroke Park is now bigger than I want the GAA to be, I see the GAA as being my club and my county, my affinity with Croke Park is gone, and instead of being a magnificent testament to the spirit of volunteerism is best described as the third biggest sports stadium in Europe.
What do you mean that Croke park is now bigger than you want the GAA to be?
Can't it be both the magnificent testament to the spirity of volunteerism and the third biggest sports stadium in Europe?
Was all for allowing the temporary opening up of Croker whilst Lansdowne is being redeveloped - would be against the selling fo our biggest assett to the government or anyone else.
My passion for soccer is just as high as it is for Football i couldn't pick between either i love both,But i really don't think Croke Park should be sold to anyone
I am a big supporter of Croke Park being opened up while Landsdowne is being rebuilt and if it takes 4 or 5 years so be it but god the idea of selling Croke Park no way i be totally against it, it would really be one step too far
With all the money the goverment has wasted on electronic voting and the like over the last 10 years we could have had 5 National Stadiums built on greenfield sites
As much of a soccer follower i am i think it's going too far to let Rugby and soccer be a permament fixture in Croker at the end of the day it was built for Gaelic Games and thats the way it should stay once Landsdowne or a new stadium is built elsewhere for the other two sports
bennydorano,
QuoteDon't see the point in selling it, what happens when the monies recieved are spent and are all gone?
Jesus, even if we blew the whole 600M in a whore house, we'd still be using Croker anyway.
that's the whole point myself and others are making - if we sold it to the nation, we'd still get the same use out of it as we are at the minute anyway.
Realistically, being the tight hoors that we are, I guess we wouldn't blow it in a whore house, although the GPA might have other ideas.
We'd be more likely to spend the 600M on improving our decrepit regional stadia, setting up new clubs and getting townies to play the game, oh and yes, WE WOULD STILL PLAY OUR BIG GAMES AT CROKER!
Yep, that's Croker as in a proper national stadium that caters for all sports, not the pretend national stadium at Lansdowne that excludes GAA.
Not to be confused with Tallaght, another Govt funded stadium that excludes GAA.
Quote from: snatter on March 01, 2007, 10:58:59 PM
bennydorano,
QuoteDon't see the point in selling it, what happens when the monies recieved are spent and are all gone?
Jesus, even if we blew the whole 600M in a whore house, we'd still be using Croker anyway.
that's the whole point myself and others are making - if we sold it to the nation, we'd still get the same use out of it as we are at the minute anyway.
Realistically, being the tight hoors that we are, I guess we wouldn't blow it in a whore house, although the GPA might have other ideas.
We'd be more likely to spend the 600M on improving our decrepit regional stadia, setting up new clubs and getting townies to play the game, oh and yes, WE WOULD STILL PLAY OUR BIG GAMES AT CROKER!
Yep, that's Croker as in a proper national stadium that caters for all sports, not the pretend national stadium at Lansdowne that excludes GAA.
Not to be confused with Tallaght, another Govt funded stadium that excludes GAA.
Most of our regional stadia are being improved at the moment anyway, without the need for selling off our greatest assett. And whats this about townies playing the game? Silly comment as most large urban centres have thriving GAA clubs, or is GAA still the sole preserve of rural Ireland? Can't figure that one out at all....
You say we can still play our big games at Croker - what happens, when 20 years down the line? One of the other associations using the ground could, and perhaps quite reasonably, argue that they need the ground on one of the weekends in September when the All Irelands are scheduled? Might be unlikely, but not impossible given that the final decison would rest with a commercial company that runs the ground to extract max revenues.
Bad bad idea - but thankfully one that would have to be passed at congress and I cannot forsee anything other than a firm NO on that vote
Im sure if it was sold it be named after some corperate comapny like Arsenal have done with the Emirates Stadium
I can see it now Laois v Kerry All Ireland Final 2015 in the British Telecom stadium :-\
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on March 01, 2007, 11:20:46 PM
Im sure if it was sold it be named after some corperate comapny like Arsenal have done with the Emirates Stadium
I can see it now Laois v Kerry All Ireland Final 2015 in the British Telecom stadium :-\
Such overkill in order to suit your argument.
I mean Laois in an All Ireland final? ;)
Stephenite,
Quotewhat happens, when 20 years down the line? One of the other associations using the ground could, and perhaps quite reasonably, argue that they need the ground on one of the weekends in September when the All Irelands are scheduled? Might be unlikely, but not impossible given that the final decison would rest with a commercial company that runs the ground to extract max revenues.
Already answered earlier in the thread:
QuoteFor the hard of thinking / laterally challenged, if the GAA sold it to the Govt, they would obviously do so with the caveat that it was ringfenced for the AI Semi and Finals and possibly Leinster final.
I didn't think I would have to explain that one.
RE:
QuoteMost of our regional stadia are being improved at the moment anyway
They're not being improved
a. fast enough
b. with thin air
We need one top class venue per province. 40 to 60k, Two thirds seated and covered. we're miles off at the minute.
Laois Lad
Quotecan see it now Laois v Kerry All Ireland Final 2015 in the British Telecom stadium
Very much an extreme example to appeal to the knee-jerk anti-British amongst us.
If an Irish Govt thoght it could rename Croker to anything starting with British, I would imagine it would be on a one ticket out of power.
Eh it was a tounge in cheek comment lads
QuoteWe need one top class venue per province. 40 to 60k, Two thirds seated and covered. we're miles off at the minute
Don't agree with ya there.Can't speak for other province's but Leinster has
O'Moore Park Portlaoise with a brand new multi million euro stand and state of art floodlights
Nolan Park Kilkenny with a multi million overhaul aswell
Tullamore the same
Quote from: snatter on March 01, 2007, 11:26:08 PM
Stephenite,
Quotewhat happens, when 20 years down the line? One of the other associations using the ground could, and perhaps quite reasonably, argue that they need the ground on one of the weekends in September when the All Irelands are scheduled? Might be unlikely, but not impossible given that the final decison would rest with a commercial company that runs the ground to extract max revenues.
Already answered earlier in the thread:
QuoteFor the hard of thinking / laterally challenged, if the GAA sold it to the Govt, they would obviously do so with the caveat that it was ringfenced for the AI Semi and Finals and possibly Leinster final.
I didn't think I would have to explain that one.
RE:
QuoteMost of our regional stadia are being improved at the moment anyway
They're not being improved
a. fast enough
b. with thin air
We need one top class venue per province. 40 to 60k, Two thirds seated and covered. we're miles off at the minute.
Not withstanding the insult of being hard of thinking, I have to challenge this. If the stadium is sold how long do you think this caveat will hold? Under legal scrutiny I'd imagine not for very long, if it's sold it will be up the owners ( government prob engage a management company to do this for them ) to dictate when the stadium is used, not it's former owners. Would only be a matter of time before this caveat is overturned. I mean if you sell you anything you lose the right to have FULL say in it's operation or management.
You say it's not hard to explain, of course it's not hard to explain, just doesn't mean it copper fastens our right to use the stadium when we choose years down the line
Your other notions of what makes an ideal stadium is absurd to say the least.
laois lad,
QuoteQuote
We need one top class venue per province. 40 to 60k, Two thirds seated and covered. we're miles off at the minute
Don't agree with ya there.
you mightn't agree with me, but the GAA does.
The GAA are deadly keen on getting a 40000 + capacity stadium in each province.
For full details read Section 8.4.3 of GAA Strategic Review report
re GAA's stadia requirements:
One 'major' stadium should be developed in each Province with the exception of Leinster; (A 'major' stadium would involve a capacity of 40,000 to 60,000, of which at least two-thirds would be seated and a minimum of 35% of the seats
would be covered.)
The GAA's economic case appears to be backed up by an interim report by Department of Economics University College Cork. see
http://www.ucc.ie/academic/economics/research/workingpapers/03-01.pdf
I said i couldn't speak for other province's but as far as i know Portlaoise can hold at least 35,000 and 10,000 of those are seated and under a roof
Stephenite,
re
QuoteNot withstanding the insult of being hard of thinking
apologies, but it wasn't a personal insult at you - if you read through the thread you'll see that I posted that before replying to you.
I was merely challenging the knee jerk never never brigade to stop and think for a minute rather than just saying never never.
I don't mind never never, but would prefer to see reasons in support of it.
Quote from: snatter on March 01, 2007, 11:44:21 PM
laois lad,
QuoteQuote
We need one top class venue per province. 40 to 60k, Two thirds seated and covered. we're miles off at the minute
Don't agree with ya there.
you mightn't agree with me, but the GAA does.
The GAA are deadly keen on getting a 40000 + capacity stadium in each province.
For full details read Section 8.4.3 of GAA Strategic Review report
re GAA's stadia requirements:
One 'major' stadium should be developed in each Province with the exception of Leinster; (A 'major' stadium would involve a capacity of 40,000 to 60,000, of which at least two-thirds would be seated and a minimum of 35% of the seats
would be covered.)
The GAA's economic case appears to be backed up by an interim report by Department of Economics University College Cork. see
http://www.ucc.ie/academic/economics/research/workingpapers/03-01.pdf
OK fair enough - but most of the stadiums we have would need some modifications to acheive this. Not the massive amounts of monies that are being discussed, and it's certainly not reason enough to sell off Croker.
I don't really mind if the other sports want to use our stadium on an ongoing basis - keeps the extra revenue flowing in and that can be used to acheive waht you're talking about.
However I firmly reject the notion of selling off this asset and losing control over the management and operation of it. The caveat you mentioned would not last too long I feel.
Anyway as pointed out, would have to pass through congress and they're not going to pass this motion anytime soon
Quote from: stephenite on March 01, 2007, 11:24:36 PM
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on March 01, 2007, 11:20:46 PM
Im sure if it was sold it be named after some corperate comapny like Arsenal have done with the Emirates Stadium
I can see it now Laois v Kerry All Ireland Final 2015 in the British Telecom stadium :-\
Such overkill in order to suit your argument.
I mean Laois in an All Ireland final? ;)
I can't decide which would be worse never getting there or always losing in the Final? ;)
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on March 01, 2007, 11:53:38 PM
I can't decide which would be worse never getting there or always losing in the Final? ;)
Never getting there - trust me.
Thought you might say that!!!
Most used expression in Laois "ah sure there's always next year" :'(
Stephenite,
QuoteOK fair enough - but most of the stadiums we have would need some modifications to acheive this. Not the massive amounts of monies that are being discussed, and it's certainly not reason enough to sell off Croker.
I'd prefer to see most of the money spent on expansion of GAA into weak areas, new clubs, etc.
but there'd certainly be enough to develop regional stadia in line with the strategic review.
QuoteI don't really mind if the other sports want to use our stadium on an ongoing basis - keeps the extra revenue flowing in and that can be used to acheive waht you're talking about.
Sorry, but I do. The rental we're getting is pathetic when compared against the financial sacrifice and courage the GAA has made in acquiring and rebuilding Croker.
And then when you think thatthe IRFU will make over 10M extra this year from Croker, while we make less than 5M, and still get frozen out of Lansdowne and Tallght.
It makes me pretty pi55ed off.
QuoteAnyway as pointed out, would have to pass through congress and they're not going to pass this motion anytime soon
They said the same about the ban, rule 21, etc.
If such a motion were ever discussed I think the IRFU and Govt would rely on the perceived conservatism of the GAA to maintain the status quo, much to our detriment. Time for the GAA membership to get wise and try and get as much out of the current situation as we can.
I understand the reasons you're outlining - and they do make financial sense. I would be against from the point of view of giving up our ability to operate and manage our biggest asset, in our best interests. As above I don't think the caveat mentioned could be enforced long term and would only be a matter of time before other codes take over some of our big days.
It was mentioned above that the club finals should be moved from Croke park to smaller venues - I strongly disagree, Croke Park encapsualtes all that is great about our association - and club final days are one of the few days when club players get to grace the sod - personally speaking I would have been distraught had Brian Ruane our club captain, not been able to receive the Andy Merrigan trophy on the steps of the Hogan.
Moments like that are what make the GAA great, and it would be a sad day if any clubs who had made the All Ireland series were unable to play in Croke Park because of an upcoming game of Rugby. Or if the All Ireland camoige final couldn't be played becuase of a soccer game
To me GAA is in peoples hearts. As time passes and we become a mere sporting organisation a la fifa , fai , ifa, irfu and we decide its all about the games and that it, then we cant act outraged when people sugeest perfectly sensical comments in this day and age. How many GAA folk were walking around last Saturday night with stars in their eyes, proud of their association, proud of the Irish Rugby team and proud because John Inverdale told us to be. Having watched the French game and listened to good friends tell me they wanted the world to see Croke Park I feel cheated, I believe it was the gombeen mindset that opened it, these guys werent interested in France or USA or Germany seeing Croke Park, in a perverse way they really only weanted to show it off to the English, our vanity made us blind to those who wanted to show Rugby off to the Irish in the best way possible. We though the GAA was strong enough, it wasnt well maybe oin the balance sheet but not in its principles. The stadium to many people is their GAA, it meant so much to see the pros last week play on it we were beside ourselves, it vindicated £20 in at Clones 5 years ago for an Ulster championship 1st round, it had been worth it, We are now accepted. Im sorry I dont drink from that cup, my GAA runs the best parts of my community, its a world away from Jones Raod, Croke Park - the stadium built on the ashes of Sackville street is now well and truly concrete and plastic. The principle are gone now... A final reposte to those that argued that Lesey Corry and co were not the people who carried out atrocities in our country and who still pledge to keep it divided... If that was the casethen what good was served by having them there. why was the occasion so poignant, so significant if England is still not the enemy of our country. Have they still not a border in place? As for GAA PLC We have now had our thrill we congratulated ouselves on being great hosts, What a phenomenal day to be a GAA man, but that was Rugby you were watching last week lads not Gaelic sports.. What havent you been converted yet? Im sure many of your kids were..
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 02, 2007, 08:41:55 AM
I believe it was the gombeen mindset that opened it, these guys werent interested in France or USA or Germany seeing Croke Park, in a perverse way they really only weanted to show it off to the English, our vanity made us blind to those who wanted to show Rugby off to the Irish in the best way possible.
I envy your insight into the minds of those who were/are in favour of 'opening' Croke Park. I didn't realise that's why I was for it. Thanks for letting me know.
Admit it Hardy it was more about the plaudits from the likes of Inverdale etc. We are in an era where people prefer to define themselves by what others think of them than what their own heart tells them..When I think of Sean Kelly, I have more respect for the Davy Tweeds of this world who at least stands for something - even if it is the British anthem.
QuoteThe ones advocating it are the same ones that would sell their Granny.
`
Granny has been lsold already did you miss the closing of the sale last week in the egg chasing contest v the country tat still controls and claims to own six of our counties . My arguement is not economic I am only saying how the bmoney used in the sale of the national stadium can be used to promote the games we are all involved in.
My arguement is an emotional one. when you have wusses like P clohessy apoligising for people using their free choice to Boo GSTQ you know how far we have been sold down the river by Kelly and CO
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 02, 2007, 09:26:14 AM
Admit it Hardy it was more about the plaudits from the likes of Inverdale etc. We are in an era where people prefer to define themselves by what others think of them than what their own heart tells them..When I think of Seán Kelly, I have more respect for the Davy Tweeds of this world who at least stands for something - even if it is the British anthem.
As I said, you're right. I just didn't know what made me do it. Now I know. It's because I want to have John Inverdale's babies. My years of laying out the arguments here about the benefits to the GAA, how we should utilise our assets to the maximum benefit of the association, what we could do with the money, how it would be (IMO) an act of extreme stupidity to turn it down ... that was all just an oul smokescreen. Sean Kelly put us all up to it. For a knighthood.
Happy now?
(Is Seán Kelly an exception to the laws of libel - people here seem to feel free to say anything they like about him. I think it should stop, myself).
opening up of croke park has been a disaster for the gaa.
opening up of croke park has had this result- rugby gains a foothold in the minds of our children to the expense of gaelic games ,opening up of croke park has been a pr matersroke for rugby in its quest to win the heart of our youth.
Quote from: thegael on March 02, 2007, 12:15:17 PM
opening up of croke park has been a disaster for the gaa.
opening up of croke park has had this result- rugby gains a foothold in the minds of our children to the expense of gaelic games ,opening up of croke park has been a pr matersroke for rugby in its quest to win the heart of our youth.
I don't know where you live, but in my neck of the woods the children - and remember, We Must Do Everything We Can For The Children (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34213) - had heard of rugby before the Ireland - France game
Quote from: deiseach on March 02, 2007, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: thegael on March 02, 2007, 12:15:17 PM
opening up of croke park has been a disaster for the gaa.
opening up of croke park has had this result- rugby gains a foothold in the minds of our children to the expense of gaelic games ,opening up of croke park has been a pr matersroke for rugby in its quest to win the heart of our youth.
I don't know where you live, but in my neck of the woods the children - and remember, We Must Do Everything We Can For The Children (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34213) - had heard of rugby before the Ireland - France game
I agree Deiseach..really some of the shite on this topic...how many kids will be playing rugby come May/June!
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 02, 2007, 07:32:02 PM
Quote from: deiseach on March 02, 2007, 06:57:51 PM
Quote from: thegael on March 02, 2007, 12:15:17 PM
opening up of croke park has been a disaster for the gaa.
opening up of croke park has had this result- rugby gains a foothold in the minds of our children to the expense of gaelic games ,opening up of croke park has been a pr matersroke for rugby in its quest to win the heart of our youth.
I don't know where you live, but in my neck of the woods the children - and remember, We Must Do Everything We Can For The Children (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/34213) - had heard of rugby before the Ireland - France game
I agree Deiseach..really some of the shite on this topic...how many kids will be playing rugby come May/June!
'Hearing' of rugby is one thing a chairde, but elevated to such a pre-eminent and prominent position in the psyche of the collective young?... Only time will tell.
I think a lot of people underestimate the pull of rugby in Ireland. I think it has a real foothold. Before all those posts got deleted a few weeks ago I mentioned how my secondary school in Ferbane started playing Rugby for the first time in 1990. We would have been a pure hotbed of GAA players, from Tony McTeague through to the Grennans.
A couple of weeks ago I saw on RTE an alumnus of my school play Rugby for IReland 'A' against England. A week later I say another alumnus play for Ireland U-21s. The school has provided internationals at all underage levels, and won the Connacht senior schools cup in Rugby.
Ferbane now has no players on the Offaly senior Football starting 15, and 1 on the Under 21s.
AZOffaly
That change to rugby came about with no use of croke park, when the Irish rugby team was poor etc......so people were already switching before any of this etc..
Oh yeah. I wasn't blaming Croker for that. Just a sort of by the way, rugby is more of a danger in terms of losing players than you think.
I went to Mels in Longford...another GAA stronghold. There was no rugby and the only soccer was the 'jumpers for goalposts' variety. Basketball was tolerated as was athletics. I do believe, like AZ, Mels now have some class of rugby team but this happened 10 or so years ago.
Croke Park, once, to quote a Roscommon blow-in, this "temporary little arrangement" comes to an end should close for non GAA sports. Else you will have all sorts of pressure to open the doors for Heineken Cup, Ireland v England etc etc etc.
I don't think what has happened over the past 4 weeks will hurt the GAA. No players will be lost. Had the cameras focussed on shitloads of rugby and soccer fans getting onto the ferries to Cardiff for 'home' games then, surely, the damage to the GAA would have been catastrophic.
Our Cavan friend is in tomorrow's Sunday Tribune, in a Chicken Licken rant, telling us that the sky has fallen, the sky has fallen. But, looking out tonight at the way the moon is, well, perhaps he has a point.
Spot on Shamrock shore.
Said Tribune Article
Croker will never be a GAA stadium again
Two cent with. . . Micéal Greenan
I CAN'T say I watched England play rugby at Croke Park last Saturday. I can't say I heard any other national anthems played in Croke Park either. Luckily enough I had better things to do and if I didn't, I'd be in trouble. But that's not to say it doesn't bother me greatly. People who know me realise I speak my mind, they know I shoot from the hip but they also know I'm honest and I have the very best interest of Gaelic games at heart. Unfortunately others don't and down the line the GAA will be in trouble. The door has been opened in Croke Park and I don't think there is any way to close it.
This is not about England or the history of the stadium. It's about us helping our competitors gain an upper hand and I don't think a lot of GAA people realise how serious the consequences are going to be in years to come.
Sure, we are making money out of all this, but rugby and soccer will be making three times as much. They'll have far more than us to pump into their facilities around the country and to win over youngsters who are choosing which sport they want to achieve in.
What's really annoyed me over the past while is that you can't have anything other than a positive view. If you complain and speak your mind, there's something wrong with you. You are not acting in the best interests of sport and of Ireland. I've never seen the like of the triumphalism I've had to put up with all week. And if I hear another person mention the money we got to build Croke Park. . . The taxpayer's money has gone into Croke Park but with the amount of money the government got in tax, PAYE and PRSI when Croke Park was being built, well, we just got some of that back.
That's number one, number two is this: other sports got the same and we got that money to do up Croke Park because we couldn't have had the Special Olympics here without the GAA and Croke Park. They gave a lot of money to soccer and rugby and they had to do nothing with it, just pocket it and walk away.
Up to a few weeks ago, Croke Park was a GAA stadium. That's gone now and it will never be a GAA stadium again. Why? Because any logical individual will have doubts over whether Lansdowne Road will ever be built.
I hear our Minister for Sport this week suggesting that Croke Park might have to be opened into 2009. This is an extra year and they haven't even got planning permission for Lansdowne yet. To John O'Donoghue I would say, we don't tell the government how to run the country so I don't think it's any of their business, telling people how to run the GAA.
But in the GAA, we are not looking after our own. The people in our association want to play in Croke Park and they should be allowed.
You look at ladies' football, they only have a provisional date for the All Ireland finals in 2007 in Croke Park. Yet they are promoting other games, soccer and rugby, games that are in opposition to us and they have assured dates for 2008. Now where is the logic in that? We can't play our Ulster final in Croke Park this year and we are going to lose money that we have pumped into it. There is no fairness in this.
And it's not a question of the others having to play abroad. Couldn't they play in Dalymount Park, didn't they play there for years? It's plenty big, sure aren't the pitch dimensions perfect. If you're talking about size of crowds and so on, that's a different matter. That's an issue of making money. They could play in Windsor Park either.
There are loads of options.
And anyway, every weekend there are loads of boys going over to Glasgow, London, Manchester to watch games and they won't watch their own teams here so why can't they go abroad for the Irish team as well. They seem to enjoy the trip. The GAA has matches in every little town over the whole year, we're bringing money in with all those and we are made feel like the bad boys. It makes me sick.
But it's too late to stop it now. You take the first Sunday there's a rugby match in Croke Park. Not only did we give up Croke Park, we changed times of all our games to suit them and make sure they had no opposition.
Not until all our teams are accommodated in Croke Park at times that suit, should we look at letting others near the place. Nickey Brennan has a tough time ahead, he's inherited a problem people don't realise the scale of.
Micéal Greenan is exchairman of the Ulster Council
Though I think that the GAA must be vigilant as regards the growth of rugby I don't think we need to panic, rugby is a winter game while the GAA is mainly a summer one, if anything it is soccer that has more to worry about. While it is possible to play junior club rugby and club level GAA it is impossible IMO to play both soccer and rugby. In saying that we should still be pro-active in meeting this challenge, rugby is a professional sport it needs to remain successful to maintain a viable income stream, with this in mind it makes sense for them to target talented GAA players who they feel have the necessary tools to become top level rugby players.
To do this money needs to be invested in getting qualified coaches into the schools all over the country to match the work being done by the other codes. In fact I was only talking to a friend the other day who is a qualified sports scientist and is working in a gym, he told me that many sport scientists have trouble finding good jobs in Ireland, I think the GAA should target these individuals, they are young, intelligent people with an expert knowledge of how to coach young kids. Back them up with a select band of high profile inter county players and managers (say 60 - 80) who could assist them, help with the coaching, give a talk etc. We have the tools to win this battle but we need to use them.
Talking of winter games I know Paudie Butler is of the opinion that more and more our games will be played in the winter and so we need lights and all weather pitches, he feels that Irish society is changing and that people are going away for the summer more and more ,intresting comments though.
I can't believe the Turbine published that nonsense.
There is a coherent argument for not opening Croker but Greenan couldn't articulate it if you gave him a year.
QuoteAnd anyway, every weekend there are loads of boys going over to Glasgow, London, Manchester to watch games and they won't watch their own teams here so why can't they go abroad for the Irish team as well. They seem to enjoy the trip. The GAA has matches in every little town over the whole year, we're bringing money in with all those and we are made feel like the bad boys. It makes me sick
What exactly is he on about?
Quote from: muppet on March 04, 2007, 07:38:06 PM
I can't believe the Turbine published that nonsense.
There is a coherent argument for not opening Croker but Greenan couldn't articulate it if you gave him a year.
QuoteAnd anyway, every weekend there are loads of boys going over to Glasgow, London, Manchester to watch games and they won't watch their own teams here so why can't they go abroad for the Irish team as well. They seem to enjoy the trip. The GAA has matches in every little town over the whole year, we're bringing money in with all those and we are made feel like the bad boys. It makes me sick
What exactly is he on about?
Celtic, Man Utd and Chelsea fans
Quote from: ziggysego on March 04, 2007, 07:43:35 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 04, 2007, 07:38:06 PM
I can't believe the Turbine published that nonsense.
There is a coherent argument for not opening Croker but Greenan couldn't articulate it if you gave him a year.
QuoteAnd anyway, every weekend there are loads of boys going over to Glasgow, London, Manchester to watch games and they won't watch their own teams here so why can't they go abroad for the Irish team as well. They seem to enjoy the trip. The GAA has matches in every little town over the whole year, we're bringing money in with all those and we are made feel like the bad boys. It makes me sick
What exactly is he on about?
Celtic, Man Utd and Chelsea fans
Some poeple choose to travel to watch games in England or Scotland. Some choose to watch their local junior Gaa games. I would prefer the latter and no one makes me feel like a bad boy and it certainly doesn't make me sick.
The first thing and most important lesson I learned in Gaa as an U-12 was to take your defeats on the chin.
Greenen is hiding behind the Special Olympics now which is as low as you can go in my book.
No no no. I wasn't saying Greenan was correct. Just saying that is what he meant by going to Glasgow, Manchester and London.
Personally I'm against Croke Park being opened up, but Greenan is doing to arguement no favours.
Quote from: ziggysego on March 04, 2007, 08:01:52 PM
No no no. I wasn't saying Greenan was correct. Just saying that is what he meant by going to Glasgow, Manchester and London.
Personally I'm against Croke Park being opened up, but Greenan is doing to arguement no favours.
Agreed
Greenan takes massive criticism for his position on Croke Park but how many of those many others opposing its opening up have the courage he has to put the anti case?
I thought his bit in the Tribune was good and well put.
Great Turfsmoke mayby you can explain his points so. Off you go.
OK Muppet, what about:
1.
OK Muppet, what about:
1. We're now in a position where we can't play the GAA League finals (football and hurling) and can't guarantee the Ladies' final in our national GAA stadium but can accommodate several soccer and rugby games there as well as their training sessions
2. No sign of anything magnanimous in return for the opening up, such as not designing our national games out of the "national" (that's a laugh) stadium at Landsdowne? Or what about RTE giving the national games a weekly slot like what they give rugby in Against the Head? Or giving a decent coverage of the National leagues, even a percentage of the soccer coverage they provide mid-week and week-ends?
3. Do we need to flag up the Tallagh debacle again?
4. When people travel overseas to follow the soccer or rugby teams, it's flagged up as something great. No word of it being unpatriotic and all that guff - but the tune changes if there's any chance that the travelling overseas was because those games chose not to provide themselves with proper stadiums. And somehow the name of the tune then becomes "Blame the GAA"
5. Rugby Union football, a professional business that we compete with never ever had a weekend's profile like they got last week. They'll live off it for years. And we handed it to them. The week before we even gave them a free run by shifting the times of our games. We've conceded our stadium and our timetable. Anything else we'd need to hand over?
6. The "sure it's only temporary" argument is already being attacked and watered down after just two rugby games in Croke Park. And by not sticking to the original spirit of the Congress motion we're at grave risk of there being no new Landsdowne stadium and the cuckoos demanding to stay in the Croke Park nest.
Quote from: Turfsmoke on March 04, 2007, 11:50:36 PM
OK Muppet, what about:
1. We're now in a position where we can't play the GAA League finals (football and hurling) and can't guarantee the Ladies' final in our national GAA stadium but can accommodate several soccer and rugby games there as well as their training sessions
2. No sign of anything magnanimous in return for the opening up, such as not designing our national games out of the "national" (that's a laugh) stadium at Landsdowne? Or what about RTE giving the national games a weekly slot like what they give rugby in Against the Head? Or giving a decent coverage of the National leagues, even a percentage of the soccer coverage they provide mid-week and week-ends?
3. Do we need to flag up the Tallagh debacle again?
4. When people travel overseas to follow the soccer or rugby teams, it's flagged up as something great. No word of it being unpatriotic and all that guff - but the tune changes if there's any chance that the travelling overseas was because those games chose not to provide themselves with proper stadiums. And somehow the name of the tune then becomes "Blame the GAA"
5. Rugby Union football, a professional business that we compete with never ever had a weekend's profile like they got last week. They'll live off it for years. And we handed it to them. The week before we even gave them a free run by shifting the times of our games. We've conceded our stadium and our timetable. Anything else we'd need to hand over?
6. The "sure it's only temporary" argument is already being attacked and watered down after just two rugby games in Croke Park. And by not sticking to the original spirit of the Congress motion we're at grave risk of there being no new Landsdowne stadium and the cuckoos demanding to stay in the Croke Park nest.
Muppet, I'm opposed to 'selling' CP, but on point 2 and 3, the GAA are getting €1.5m a game from the IRFU and FAI. What 'magnanamus' gesture do you want? Its a commercial transaction. Can you can see why the soccer lads are getting angsty? They are expected to hand over a stadium the GAA don't need in Tallaght for 'goodwill' on top of millions of euro they could be better spending on their own games?
Are you for groundsharing or not? We shouldnt rent CP but are 'entitled' to permanenet and free use of LR and Tallaght? How does that work? When did LR become the 'national' stadium?
We are making a shit load of cash of the soccer and rugby. The only talk of them not completing LR is from within the GAA. There is no basis in reality for point 6, why oh why would they deliberatley not build a stadium? It makes no sense. They cant afford CP prices indefinatley
how can you 'hand over' something you dont own (or didnt pay for)?
Quote from: Turfsmoke on March 04, 2007, 11:50:36 PM
OK Muppet, what about:
1. We're now in a position where we can't play the GAA League finals (football and hurling) and can't guarantee the Ladies' final in our national GAA stadium but can accommodate several soccer and rugby games there as well as their training sessions
2. No sign of anything magnanimous in return for the opening up, such as not designing our national games out of the "national" (that's a laugh) stadium at Landsdowne? Or what about RTE giving the national games a weekly slot like what they give rugby in Against the Head? Or giving a decent coverage of the National leagues, even a percentage of the soccer coverage they provide mid-week and week-ends?
3. Do we need to flag up the Tallagh debacle again?
4. When people travel overseas to follow the soccer or rugby teams, it's flagged up as something great. No word of it being unpatriotic and all that guff - but the tune changes if there's any chance that the travelling overseas was because those games chose not to provide themselves with proper stadiums. And somehow the name of the tune then becomes "Blame the GAA"
5. Rugby Union football, a professional business that we compete with never ever had a weekend's profile like they got last week. They'll live off it for years. And we handed it to them. The week before we even gave them a free run by shifting the times of our games. We've conceded our stadium and our timetable. Anything else we'd need to hand over?
6. The "sure it's only temporary" argument is already being attacked and watered down after just two rugby games in Croke Park. And by not sticking to the original spirit of the Congress motion we're at grave risk of there being no new Landsdowne stadium and the cuckoos demanding to stay in the Croke Park nest.
Point 1 - To the best of my knowledge this renovating of the pitch would have been required whether rugby/soccer were being played or not....I also remember that not every League final was played in Croke Park before the opening of Croke Park.
Point 2 - Rugby gets a half hour program on a monday and the GAA is shown on TG4, Setanta and RTE.....RTE were outbid for the RWC and also lost out on the HC already...
Point 3 - Thats a political decision.
Point 4 - The All-Stars play abroad, GAA competitions run abroad and they use Cricket, Rugby, Soccer grounds - without these organisations there would be no GAA abroad.....most of the people who would be at the rugby the last 2 matches will be the same people who will be in GAA stadiums around the country for the summer...
Point 5 - Rugby would have got as much publicity if they had had to travel to Wales etc for a match - except the difference is that instead of the GAA being seen in such a good light they would have got an awful lot more bad publicity.....
Point 6 - Yes there is talk about it would be nice to play more matches in CP going forward and I personally don't see the problem with that as long as it is satisfactory to the GAA........
What I do have is someone like him putting himself forward as being a true Gael and anyone with a differing opinion isn't......which is certainly what I got from his article...
croke park has now been soiled by rugby union and soon to be association football too.
the only way to restore pride in the gaa is to sell croke park to leinster house and build a new gaa headquarters with the money in the centre of ireland.
Quote from: true ulster gael on March 05, 2007, 01:43:20 PM
croke park has now been soiled by rugby union and soon to be association football too.
the only way to restore pride in the gaa is to sell croke park to leinster house and build a new gaa headquarters with the money in the centre of ireland.
Yeah, a weekend in Birr sounds very appealing!!
As for the League finals in Croker, I've been to a few and tbh, unless you are guaranteed a crowd of at least 40k, Croker is not the place for any game.
And Dublinfella, why do you say 'we' when you refer to the gaa? I think your cover has been long ago blown ;)
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 05, 2007, 01:55:18 PM
Quote from: true ulster gael on March 05, 2007, 01:43:20 PM
croke park has now been soiled by rugby union and soon to be association football too.
the only way to restore pride in the gaa is to sell croke park to leinster house and build a new gaa headquarters with the money in the centre of ireland.
Yeah, a weekend in Birr sounds very appealing!!
i was thinking maybe athlone.
I think Greenan's article is spot on. The middle grounders who float between all sports don't see the difficulties that face the GAA down the tracks. Things that the like of Greenan will be fighting against while they change to their Rugby or soccer shirts as they please.
QuoteWell, beats Birr I suppose
It does in it's hole!!
Anyway, everyone knows Ferbane is the heart of Ireland. We could rebuild the GAA Pitch there no bother.
As an 'outsider', I've been reading this topic with interest. I think a few people seem to have very little grasp on the current situation in both rugby and 'soccer'. I follow both and would love to think that either (or both) could threaten the GAA but it would be nonsense.
My view would be
Rugby
Club rugby is dying on it's arse, with tiny crowds (anywhere from a couple of dozen to a few hundred) and membership falling. Provincial rugby is currently strong but still only attracts crowds of 10 or 12 K with the odd European match getting a bigger crowd. It also involves a significant number of players who arent't Irish.
International rugby has 2 or 3 sell out matches per year and always will have, this doesn't seem to be affected by either the state of the team or the state of 'competing sports'.
Soccer
Club soccer (on both sides of the border) is nearly as bad as club rugby
International soccer tends to fluctuate depending on how the two teams are doing but even at the best of times it will never get the sort of crowds that GAA get.
I don't see much, there, for the GAA to be worried about.
QuoteI don't see much, there, for the GAA to be worried about.
It's good to see sammy that we have you're support :P
Shock, horror though we have found something that we both agree on. I feel people are getting carried away somewhat with the impending collapse of the GAA and the ultimate overrunning of it with the garrison games. People should realise that the games have never been stronger and if the base infrastructure is improved upon for the smaller clubs then it will only get stronger and stronger.
The current upsurge in interest in rugby has much to do with the excellent team. This has a finite lifespan and there is not an all conquering underage structure which will produce players a la New Zealand. Also given the fact that the two game can co-exist being winter/summer games much of the arguments are nullified.
I cannot comment on the club scene but it would take an organisation like the IRFU 15-20 years of sustained underage development to make a major impact on the GAA, no matter how many games are palyed at Croke Park.
As regards soccer, the domestic game is a shambles both sides of the border. Although it is 10 years ago, an example of the difference in the north to interest in the games was whenever we palyed Burren in the first round of the club championship in 1996. The attendance figure for our one game was in excess of all the Irish League games put otgether for the weekend. In my view soccer has gone backwards since then and apart from the recent successes of NI it is struggling.
7-8 years ago there was a major hope in the south with the likes of Duff and Keane coming through but they have not lived up to the promise shown and I do not think they ever will. There is not the same talent coming through which will make international soccer prominent in the minds of young kids the way it was for me and my friends in the early 90's. That was the time that soccer was at its pinnacle after a decent run for NI and then a decent run for the ROI and I would argue that through it the GAA has actually become a stronger organisation.
Playing games at Croke Park will bring more attention initially for both sports but whenever the ticker tape has settled on the whole TV spectacle it will be back to old times in my view and the same people will attend the same games just in a different place.
Very well said brokencrossbar. There is more danger to the GAA from poor club fixture structures and inconsistent discipline interpretations than there is from rugby or soccer. When the FAI could'nt capitalise on their european and world cup appearances they're hardly going to do so in the Delaney/Staunton era. The IRFU are a much more organised and professional outfit and the current national team is indeed excellent. However it does consist of an exceptional high ratio of talented players hitting the scene at the same time rather than an assembly line of talent being developed and coming through. Most rugby people will tell you that the club scene is struggling badly since the game went professional.
Not going to get into this in depth but losing lads to club rugby isn't really the major concern. It's good athletes like Shane Horgan being (to quote that tool Tom McGurk, from a studio in Croke Park) "plucked from a GAA field" that I worry about. Anyone who thinks there isn't more glamour/attraction with rugby nowadays is just wrong. The provincial sides are far more organised in terms of targetting talent and harnessing it. We had two lads in our club last year who were not allowed play for the minor team because of rugby committments to provincial development squads. Us helping the IRFU (and RTE) spread their gospel by using the jewel in our crown makes no sense.
Ended up going into it a bit, feck it anyway. It always gets me going.
I've said it before Seanie, the only way we can really compete with the glamour of the professional rugby player is to allow the professional gaa player to exist - now how that happens exactly, I don't know, but, i think in time it will have to come to pass.
QuoteI've said it before Seanie, the only way we can really compete with the glamour of the professional rugby player is to allow the professional gaa player to exist - now how that happens exactly, I don't know, but, i think in time it will have to come to pass.
Ara that's sound so. No worries. ::)
people that call themselves gaels must ask what unirish sports can do to help the gaa.
they do nothing.
by selling our soul for money we have soiled everything archbishop croke stood for in the gaa to provide irish sports for irish men and women.
sell croke park to the puppets in leinster house for them to play with and build a new stadium and headquarters in the midlands.
Quote from: Turfsmoke on March 04, 2007, 11:50:36 PM
OK Muppet, what about:
1. We're now in a position where we can't play the GAA League finals (football and hurling) and can't guarantee the Ladies' final in our national GAA stadium but can accommodate several soccer and rugby games there as well as their training sessions
Turfsmoke we have had this before on this site but just to refresh, if Greenan was so concerned about other Gaa players playing in Croker why was he not campaigning for the Sigerson and Hogan Cup finals to be played there? There are many other National Finals in our games that are not admitted to Croker for a variety of reasons but Soccer or Rugby have nothing to do with it. The reason the Ladies Final ( and the others ) is in question is because Croker has a 'break even attendance', anything less loses money and therefore gets fixed for elsewhere. Greenen is well aware of this as are most Gaa people but there is nothing like a little bit of spin.
Quote
2. No sign of anything magnanimous in return for the opening up, such as not designing our national games out of the "national" (that's a laugh) stadium at Landsdowne? Or what about RTE giving the national games a weekly slot like what they give rugby in Against the Head? Or giving a decent coverage of the National leagues, even a percentage of the soccer coverage they provide mid-week and week-ends?
These are two separate points. Have the Gaa officially asked for Landsdowne to be designed for Gaa? RTE coverage is a completely different issue and one for the RTE board. I happen to agree with you about their coverage but the competition from TG4 and Setanta will sort that out. I dont agree however that RTE's poor coverage has anything to do with the argument to open Croker.
Quote3. Do we need to flag up the Tallagh debacle again?
The Tallaght debacle was a debacle long before local Gaa clubs seized the moment to further compound the problem. Waving this farce as some sort of Banner of Anti-Gaa bias is spin in the extreme. This was merely an exercise in opportunism.
Quote4. When people travel overseas to follow the soccer or rugby teams, it's flagged up as something great. No word of it being unpatriotic and all that guff - but the tune changes if there's any chance that the travelling overseas was because those games chose not to provide themselves with proper stadiums. And somehow the name of the tune then becomes "Blame the GAA"
This completely ridiculous and is exactly why Greenan does his cause no good. If people choose to travel that is their business. If some else calls it great ( I've have never heard this ) so what? Travelling to see Man Utd or Celtic is hardly the same as going to Cardiff to watch Ireland play a home game is it?
The IRFU provided itself with a perfectly good stadium for a long time. It was time to rebuild it. If you argued 'how come they couldn't rebuild bits at a time like the Gaa did and retain the use of the ground for games' you would have had a point. Unfortunately yourself and Greenan would rather be the victims of conspiracy set up by the media/government/west brits or whatever.
Quote5. Rugby Union football, a professional business that we compete with never ever had a weekend's profile like they got last week. They'll live off it for years. And we handed it to them. The week before we even gave them a free run by shifting the times of our games. We've conceded our stadium and our timetable. Anything else we'd need to hand over?
England have played in Ireland for over a century. GSTQ has been sung in Dublin at internationals for decades. The reason it got such a high profile was purely because of us. We made it a very big deal for them to be in Croker and made damn sure that they were grateful for the privilege. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with this but you reap what you sow. If you make a big song and dance about it you can't complain about the attention subsequently drawn.
Quote6. The "sure it's only temporary" argument is already being attacked and watered down after just two rugby games in Croke Park. And by not sticking to the original spirit of the Congress motion we're at grave risk of there being no new Landsdowne stadium and the cuckoos demanding to stay in the Croke Park nest.
Yes yes we know. They will never build. It makes absolutely no sense for the IRFU to give up their own ground to rent from ungrateful tenants that think they are the lowest of the low and would Turf you out at the first excuse. Would you rent from such a landlord?
In a sensable world Rugby & GAA would co-exist like Rugby & Cricket do in England - one for summer & one for winter.
Rugby in this country will never be as big as GAA for a whole raft of reasons but you only have to look at the body language and words spoken to know that there is mutual respect between the GAA & Rugby officials. Croke Park is de facto the National Stadium nd leaseing it 3/4 times a year for the right rent will nothing but good for the GAA.
I am True Ulster Gaels worst nightmare - a sporting ecumanist since the 60s who follows GAA,Rugby, Soccer,Golf and there are thousands more like me involved in Clubs up and down the country. I was speaking to a number of clubmen from Roscommon & Mayo at the weekend who are involved in running Senior & underage teams and they could see nosense in not letting Croke Park be used when not needed. Not sold but used to generate money for the good of the association. Thank God there are very few left who think CP has been soiled - such arrant arogant nonsense. I suppose people like Greenan and TUG black out the bits about 'foreign games' in the papers foe fear their children be contaminated. Grow up lads and get a life
I'm not for letting rugby and soccer in for non-political reasons, but I do not think Croker has been soiled for letting them in.
In my opinion True ulster gael is also the Gael.
I don't normally get involved in this threads, but I was asked to find out the following:
How much public cash went to Shamrock Rovers? And, is the quoted €110m an accepted figure for public contribution to Croke Park?
As regards Croker I think that €110 is over twice what the GAA received. From my memory there was £5m (€6.35) from the exchequer and €30M from the Sports Capital Programme (lotto) plus the recent amount for the lights (cannot remember the figure). There was probably more but not significantly more. I'm sure Bottlethrower or someone else will have the exact figures.
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 07, 2007, 04:16:41 PM
In my opinion True ulster gael is also the Gael.
please explain
1) You are thegael, you know this.
2) You are using highly sensitive avatars, for I believe a rise, which in my opinion makes you an absolute p***k of the highest order, whatever message you had, whatever importance you felt it had, you have let it down a bagful, and if you are a windupmerchant alias of another poster please tell your friend I think he is a wa~~ker also..
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 08, 2007, 04:32:09 PM
1) You are thegael, you know this.
2) You are using highly sensitive avatars, for I believe a rise, which in my opinion makes you an absolute p***k of the highest order, whatever message you had, whatever importance you felt it had, you have let it down a bagful, and if you are a windupmerchant alias of another poster please tell your friend I think he is a wa~~ker also..
what the hell are you on about
are you saying that I am also someone called thegael?
sad to see people sink low and be reduced to throwing insults
Quote from: true ulster gael on March 08, 2007, 10:16:34 PM
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 08, 2007, 04:32:09 PM
1) You are thegael, you know this.
2) You are using highly sensitive avatars, for I believe a rise, which in my opinion makes you an absolute p***k of the highest order, whatever message you had, whatever importance you felt it had, you have let it down a bagful, and if you are a windupmerchant alias of another poster please tell your friend I think he is a wa~~ker also..
what the hell are you on about
are you saying that I am also someone called thegael?
sad to see people sink low and be reduced to throwing insults
pot kettle black!
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 08, 2007, 10:38:18 PM
Quote from: true ulster gael on March 08, 2007, 10:16:34 PM
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 08, 2007, 04:32:09 PM
1) You are thegael, you know this.
2) You are using highly sensitive avatars, for I believe a rise, which in my opinion makes you an absolute p***k of the highest order, whatever message you had, whatever importance you felt it had, you have let it down a bagful, and if you are a windupmerchant alias of another poster please tell your friend I think he is a wa~~ker also..
what the hell are you on about
are you saying that I am also someone called thegael?
sad to see people sink low and be reduced to throwing insults
pot kettle black!
please show me
Quote from: Smokin Joe on March 08, 2007, 03:09:11 PM
I don't normally get involved in this threads, but I was asked to find out the following:
How much public cash went to Shamrock Rovers? And, is the quoted €110m an accepted figure for public contribution to Croke Park?
At the moment €2m in lotto funds, €2m from Rovers themselves and the SDCC want to put in €2m to finish it. Zero on the table from Thomas Davis.
Interesting piece in Phoenix this week.
Industry sources speculate that McNamara may also be willing to do a swap deal with the IRFU for Lansdowne Road if they do not receive planning permission. McNamara owns the nearby Glass Bottle Site in Ringsend, which has previously been touted as a viable location for a national stadium.
McNamara headed a consortium that acquired the site for €400 million last year from South Wharf and Dublin Port.
Another scenario could see the IRFU sell the ground to a property developer, and opt to build a stadium at Newland's Cross in west Dublin, where they own significant land.LR is plan A. Ringsend plan B. Newlands Cross plan C. So this Machevellian scheme being mooted here and only here is at least their fourth option.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 01:20:42 AM
So this Machevellian scheme being mooted here and only here is at least their fourth option.
It might be mooted here, and only here. But I'd wager that the majority here don't see it quite like that
Quote from: stephenite on March 09, 2007, 01:41:41 AM
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 01:20:42 AM
So this Machevellian scheme being mooted here and only here is at least their fourth option.
It might be mooted here, and only here. But I'd wager that the majority here don't see it quite like that
so despite the fact that the Sunday Business Post and Phoenix are reporting that the IRFU have two other balls in the air, the Govt have committed funding through the recent budget, the FAI have drawn down the money for their contribution and the GAA heirarchy have repeatedly stated the short term nature of the current CP deal, some heads on this forum have come to the conclusion that Bertie might, despite all his utterances on the subject, decide at some point in the future to buy CP for the state to save money (despite the fact it wont) makes it any less than conspiracy theory bullshit from moaners who have been warning of doom and gloom since the ban was lifted.
the premise that CP will become a national stadium is ludicrous and the fact that this is the only site discussing it should say something. 10 pages of playing into the backwoodmans paranoia. Tom Humphries was right.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 01:50:24 AM
some heads on this forum have come to the conclusion that Bertie might, despite all his utterances on the subject, decide at some point in the future to buy CP for the state to save money (despite the fact it wont) makes it any less than conspiracy theory bullshit from moaners who have been warning of doom and gloom since the ban was lifted.
the premise that CP will become a national stadium is ludicrous and the fact that this is the only site discussing it should say something. 10 pages of playing into the backwoodmans paranoia. Tom Humphries was right.
Errrm yeah, there are some heads that fear Croker turing into National stadium, yet for all your reasons, you are leaving out the utterances of the Minister responsible for the final decision - John O'Donoghue who's utterances put him at odds with his Taoiseach. He has stated he would be in favour of it.
What are Berties utterances BTW?? And journalists are reporting it in some publications, dosen't really prove anything son?
I am in agreement with you in general - I don't see it happening for a variety of reasons, but is there really any need to come on here mudslinging? I mean really, I have stated that the majority of all posters here would not see it quite like those who are understandbly jumpy in lite of O'Donoghues comments and you come on here talking about backwoodsmen.
Can I once again ask that you particiapte in logical and reasoned debate, or are you just in from the pub , again?
QuoteCan I once again ask that you particiapte in logical and reasoned debate, or are you just in from the pub , again?
;D ;D :D :D
Quote from: stephenite on March 09, 2007, 02:00:26 AM
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 01:50:24 AM
some heads on this forum have come to the conclusion that Bertie might, despite all his utterances on the subject, decide at some point in the future to buy CP for the state to save money (despite the fact it wont) makes it any less than conspiracy theory bullshit from moaners who have been warning of doom and gloom since the ban was lifted.
the premise that CP will become a national stadium is ludicrous and the fact that this is the only site discussing it should say something. 10 pages of playing into the backwoodmans paranoia. Tom Humphries was right.
Errrm yeah, there are some heads that fear Croker turing into National stadium, yet for all your reasons, you are leaving out the utterances of the Minister responsible for the final decision - John O'Donoghue who's utterances put him at odds with his Taoiseach. He has stated he would be in favour of it.
What are Berties utterances BTW?? And journalists are reporting it in some publications, dosen't really prove anything son?
I am in agreement with you in general - I don't see it happening for a variety of reasons, but is there really any need to come on here mudslinging? I mean really, I have stated that the majority of all posters here would not see it quite like those who are understandbly jumpy in lite of O'Donoghues comments and you come on here talking about backwoodsmen.
Can I once again ask that you particiapte in logical and reasoned debate, or are you just in from the pub , again?
He isnt responsible for the final decision. The GAA as an institution are. Even if, and its a massive if, he decides to lay out half a billion of the taxpayers money to buy CP, the GAA can just say no. End of. Anyone who suggests otherwise has an agenda.
John O'Donoghue has problems sometimes with his mouth. He was talking out of turn when he 'promised' LR to the GAA and he is similarly out of line in his comments about CP being a national stadium. He is full of off the cuff soundbites and should be ignored on both counts.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 02:12:56 AM
He isnt responsible for the final decision. The GAA as an institution are. Even if, and its a massive if, he decides to lay out half a billion of the taxpayers money to buy CP, the GAA can just say no. End of. Anyone who suggests otherwise has an agenda.
I meant that, in the event of the GAA giving the OK, the final decision would be in his hands ( it would be a cabinet call obviously, but he is the minister reponsible )
However, you're right, it is the GAA's decision and congress would never accept this I feel.
O'Donoghue might be full of soundbites but he ain't that dumb. He would never have said what he did if he was not prompted by someone - he is playing the old politicians game of saying something to gauge a reaction, my view is the government are keen for Croker to become the National Stadium, no matter what the Drumcondra rascal might say publicly. Still, it will never happen in my view
JO'D had a microphone stuck in front of his gob and made some blithe comment. There is no impetus whatsover to scupper the LR project. From anyone.
People seem to want to take him seriously despite the evidence. How many posters here actually feel cheated that Gaelic Games arent going to be in LR because he 'promised'? No doubt the same who are choosing to be worried about a National Stadium in CP even though he has no influence over it happening?
Its utterly contrived indignation.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 02:38:57 AM
JO'D had a microphone stuck in front of his gob and made some blithe comment. There is no impetus whatsover to scupper the LR project. From anyone.
JO'D has had enough microphones stuck in front of his gob over the years not to be making blithe, off the cuff reamrks like that - it's naive to believe otherwise, he's a f**king politician and an FF one at that. But it doesn't matter at the end of the day, it won't make a difference to the end result.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 02:38:57 AM
How many posters here actually feel cheated that Gaelic Games arent going to be in LR because he 'promised'? No doubt the same who are choosing to be worried about a National Stadium in CP even though he has no influence over it happening?
Its utterly contrived indignation.
I certainly don't feel cheated, but I can't recall him making any promises - regardless, there is no need for GAA games to be played in LR.
You have an opinion that JO'D made an off the cuff remark, I am truly envious of your naievty. Others are understandably a little nervous at his remarks
But I really do not understand why you feel the need to come on here and rant about it, contrived indignation, maybe, indignant that JO'D would say such a thing, but as I've pointed out senior cabinet ministers of long experience do not use throw away comments for no reason and to try and state otherwise is, well, a little bit foolish.
Doesn't change the fact that it won't happen because not one of the associations would be prepared to accept it
[/quote]
At the moment €2m in lotto funds, €2m from Rovers themselves and the SDCC want to put in €2m to finish it. Zero on the table from Thomas Davis.
[/quote]
So is the whole Shamrock Rovers project only costing €6m?
Was at a conference in Croker on Wednesday, spent most of the time watching the lads install the seats on the Hill, looked really well I have to say.....
Quote€2m from Rovers themselves
Where the f**k are these bankrupts coming up with €2M from? The tooth fairy?
I think the idea is you renege on your taxes, liquidate, set sail under a new flag and Hey Presto!
Quote from: magpie seanie on March 09, 2007, 09:47:11 AM
Quote€2m from Rovers themselves
Where the f**k are these bankrupts coming up with €2M from? The tooth fairy?
a good question but i think the point the soccer heads would make is that tallaght is not and never has been 100% publically funded despite what our president was out in the papers this week saying. the entire cost to the state via lotto and capital grant funding is less than the grant for the CP floodlights. and no-one has demanded use of those.
Dublinfella I came back this week after about 2 months away from the site.
You were arguing on this issue back then, and still are now!
p.s. nobody NEEDED to demand use of the floodlights, they had already been told they could use them !
I dont recall Ireland playing England in the dark.
Quote from: dubnut on March 09, 2007, 12:47:12 PM
Dublinfella I came back this week after about 2 months away from the site.
You were arguing on this issue back then, and still are now!
p.s. nobody NEEDED to demand use of the floodlights, they had already been told they could use them !
I dont recall Ireland playing England in the dark.
someone asked a question, i answered it.
my point as you well know is the same posters here who are apoplectic at soccer recieving public funds dont seem to have any problem with the GAA accepting a far higher proportion for our projects, be it the floodlights costing the state more than the entire tallaght project or the higher percentage of public funds that pearse stadium got. to say we are being harshly treated when we still get more capital grants than every other sport in the state combined (although i believe the horsies are in line for megabucks in the next few years, wonder will there be objections to that). its hypocrital and appaling PR.
but the very fact that we are on the tenth page of panic over a hypothetical situation that is totally in congresses hands to stop sums up the grip some posters here have on reality and the intentions of other sports.
I think what bothers people is the handing out of public funds to private companies to fund their capital projects. Even ignoring the fact that many of these are tax-defaulting economic basket cases, what can be the justification for this? Funding capital projects even for employment-generating major multinational enterprises was abandoned years ago as an unproductive way of supporting industry.
While many may disagree, a case can be made that tax breaks and grants given to the racing/thoroughbred industry help sustain employment and promote a foreign revenue earning industry, helping it to maintain its status as a world leader in its field. Where is the equivalent justification for putting taxpayers' money into serially-defaulting, abysmally-managed local private micro-businesses that rarely generate enough revenue to pay even their part-time employees and generate no full time employment at all?
The fact that this unaccountable largesse is routinely compared with supporting a community organisation, when no such comparison is valid, is another source of irritation. The GAA uses all of any funding it receives (which is proportionately much less than that given to capital projects for the 'professional' sports) to the benefit of the community, rather than squandering it on paying players and distributing any surplus among the shareholders of these private companies? How does this make sense as a use of taxpayers' money?
Hardy,
Well said.
Nothing much more needs to be said.
Quote from: Hardy on March 09, 2007, 04:01:23 PM
I think what bothers people is the handing out of public funds to private companies to fund their capital projects. Even ignoring the fact that many of these are tax-defaulting economic basket cases, what can be the justification for this? Funding capital projects even for employment-generating major multinational enterprises was abandoned years ago as an unproductive way of supporting industry.
While many may disagree, a case can be made that tax breaks and grants given to the racing/thoroughbred industry help sustain employment and promote a foreign revenue earning industry, helping it to maintain its status as a world leader in its field. Where is the equivalent justification for putting taxpayers' money into serially-defaulting, abysmally-managed local private micro-businesses that rarely generate enough revenue to pay even their part-time employees and generate no full time employment at all?
The fact that this unaccountable largesse is routinely compared with supporting a community organisation, when no such comparison is valid, is another source of irritation. The GAA uses all of any funding it receives (which is proportionately much less than that given to capital projects for the 'professional' sports) to the benefit of the community, rather than squandering it on paying players and distributing any surplus among the shareholders of these private companies? How does this make sense as a use of taxpayers' money?
well put, and while i have no truck for the way EL clubs have run themselves, are you saying that capital grants should only be given to amateur games? that soccer, rugby, boxing, golf, athletics etc as sports where the elite can earn a living are any less worthy of the title of 'community organisaton'? thats a bit arrogant.
basically its one rule for the clubhouse in your club and another for the boxing club? if we accept public funding it stinks to high heaven to go into court with the explicit intention of blocking similar arrangements with our competors. its ingracious, arrogant and risks future funding for ourselves.
and for the record Shamrock Rovers is a members run club. its disengenoious to talk about shareholders surpluses in this context. they are run nearly identically to a gaa club these days. at least be accurate, as it seems to be part of lore on this site that they are getting a stadium built for free.
So Dublinfella do you know many GAA clubs who choose bankruptcy to rip off their suppliers. Nah its a common business ploy.
Dublinfella the least you could do is stop saying "we" when referring to the GAA in all this.
Its pretty obvious the "we" from your point of view is Rovers.
I see what you are doing though and it is clever, but not clever enough.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 04:15:42 PM
... are you saying that capital grants should only be given to amateur games?
No. I'm saying that there's no justification at all for giving taxpayers' money to private businesses, even if they sail under the banner of 'sport', unless it's to promote and sustain employment and that, even then, capital grants would not be the way to do it. I'm also saying that there's a clear justification, in terms of social capital, for helping to fund not-for-profit organisations that exist solely to contribute positively to the community.
Quotethat soccer, rugby, boxing, golf, athletics etc as sports where the elite can earn a living are any less worthy of the title of 'community organisaton'? thats a bit arrogant. basically its one rule for the clubhouse in your club and another for the boxing club?
There's quite a mix there and they're not mutually equivalent. I can't see how it's arrogant to point out that a half-arsed, tax-defaulting company run by a few local gombeen-men calling itself a 'football club' is not a community organisation in any sense, while a boxing club or an amateur soccer club catering for youngsters from the local community clearly is.
So it's not one rule for the GAA club and one for the boxing club. I'm advocating one rule for amateur, community-oriented entities and an entirely different one for companies in the sports-entertainment business.
Quoteif we accept public funding it stinks to high heaven to go into court with the explicit intention of blocking similar arrangements with our competors. its ingracious, arrogant and risks future funding for ourselves.
If you're referring to the Tallaght case, I don't know enough about it to comment. My remarks are addressed to the general case.
Quoteand for the record Shamrock Rovers is a members run club. its disengenoious to talk about shareholders surpluses in this context. they are run nearly identically to a gaa club these days. at least be accurate, as it seems to be part of lore on this site that they are getting a stadium built for free.
Again, I don't know anything about Shamrock Rovers except that I understand in a previous incarnation they cashed in their valuable property and perfectly adequate stadium and pocketed the cash, in another incarnation they defaulted on their tax obligations (apologies if I'm wrong) and liquidated and now they surface again, with the same name, without the tax paid and they have their hands out for government money to fund a stadium for their own exclusive use. Now that IS a bit arrogant, not to mention brass-necked.
do or should organisations get funded depending on the amount of people that sport services -
So sports with a smaller playing membership will undoubtedly get a lesser stake of the cash.
Pro sports obv should be self funding to a certain extent and get a lesser stake of public funds, and then the participating peoples dictate the amount awarded.
If it is that easy for a 'group' to get funding, then I am gonna go off ans set up my own local ' kabbaddi' group, organise leagues and rake in a pile of cash - as all I need is a few squares of a car park in which to play the game.
easy money, a bit like the fai and shamrock rovers.
:D
They are obviously not even answerable to the Government never mind their community.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 09, 2007, 01:20:42 AM
[How much public cash went to Shamrock Rovers?
At the moment €2m in lotto funds, €2m from Rovers themselves and the SDCC want to put in €2m to finish it. Zero on the table from Thomas Davis.
[/quote]
For F*** sake will you ever shut up with your rubbish.
Shamrock Rovers put nothing into Tallaght -that;' why the Council took the lease back.
There was £1.5m in lotto money and when that ran out -owing a builder €3-400,000 - everything stopped.
My sources tell me it will now cost €11 million to build the Soccer only version of this stadium and Shams will still be putting NOTHING into it !!!
Quote from: Rossfan on March 09, 2007, 05:58:16 PM
For F*** sake will you ever shut up with your rubbish.
Shamrock Rovers put nothing into Tallaght -that;' why the Council took the lease back.
There was £1.5m in lotto money and when that ran out -owing a builder €3-400,000 - everything stopped.
My sources tell me it will now cost €11 million to build the Soccer only version of this stadium and Shams will still be putting NOTHING into it !!!
your sources?
11m?
on a 6m project?
The Coucil took the lease back because Mulden, the guys who bought superquinn to close them, got involved and their intentions were less than sporting. There is a lot of bull floating in this issus, and your post is full if it.
Dublinfella how dare you compare the management of Shamrock Rovers FC to the management of a Gaelic Club. How dare you? Shame on you you know f**k all about the GAA.
your sources? -- An official of SDCC
11m? - Estimate by SDCC official - wait till they go to tender -maybe 14m
on a 6m project? - EH ?? in Ireland - you are joking
There is a lot of bull floating in this issus, and your post is full if it. - you are the one consistent bull spouter on this item . - what ever your agenda is ?
Quote from: Rossfan on March 10, 2007, 01:06:04 PM
your sources? -- An official of SDCC
11m? - Estimate by SDCC official - wait till they go to tender -maybe 14m
on a 6m project? - EH ?? in Ireland - you are joking
There is a lot of bull floating in this issus, and your post is full if it. - you are the one consistent bull spouter on this item . - what ever your agenda is ?
there is no tender, the builders are already in place, the delay is due to thomas davis. i call bullshit.
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 10, 2007, 01:04:59 PM
Dublinfella how dare you compare the management of Shamrock Rovers FC to the management of a Gaelic Club. How dare you? Shame on you you know f**k all about the GAA.
its pathetic when the best 'argument' people have is to try and claim that people with a different point of view arent 'true gaels' or in this case, a member. I bet i put more time and effort into my club than you yours. And you are substantitvley wrong on how Rovers today go about their business. Hence TD's blocking moves.
i doubt it very much. You are too busy firing snowballs for the FAI to help out.
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 10, 2007, 01:58:11 PM
i doubt it very much. You are too busy firing snowballs for the FAI to help out.
Im the treasurer of my club, one of the largest in the land. I do not need to explain myself to you.
I have never defended the FAI, ever. Find me an example. But what TD are doing is a disgrace and as Sean Moran in todays Times says, it has profoundly damaged the GAA's relationship with the Department of Sport. If the GAA escalate this as they are threating to do when they lose next week, the FAI say they will return the favour next big project of ours that capital grants are involved in. Brilliant.
We have no right to use others facilities while holding rule 42 dear.
f**k off you never made it to that position I weep for the GAA in Dublin. Anyway I didnt ask or question, you did, nor do I need to explain my position in the GAA to you either. As for the big clubs or small clubs it dosent really matter to a decent GAA individual. As for the issues that you are barracking the GAA public about, do you not find yourself beating a lonely drum amongst GAA folk. Listen of you dont like it what sare you there for. Have you no moral fibre to stand up for your principles and leave the GAA. The GAA dosent need to change, you do. You are the Fr Ted of the GAA board. " No more of that there around here"
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 10, 2007, 03:23:26 PM
f**k off you never made it to that position I weep for the GAA in Dublin. Anyway I didnt ask or question, you did, nor do I need to explain my position in the GAA to you either. As for the big clubs or small clubs it dosent really matter to a decent GAA individual. As for the issues that you are barracking the GAA public about, do you not find yourself beating a lonely drum amongst GAA folk. Listen of you dont like it what sare you there for. Have you no moral fibre to stand up for your principles and leave the GAA. The GAA dosent need to change, you do. You are the Fr Ted of the GAA board. " No more of that there around here"
m impressed. not one coherent point and you managed to misqoute father ted.
in your own time find where i defended the FAI.
explain why the DCB, sorry Thomas Davis, are wasting the associations money in the high court blocking funding for another sport while accepting it themselves.
while you are at it, reconcile our rule 42 with our 'right' to free use of other sports facilities.
or just mumble incoherent shite. your call.
Quote from: dublinfella on March 10, 2007, 01:36:23 PM
there is no tender, the builders are already in place, the delay is due to thomas davis. i call bullshit.
I doubt the builders will do the job at 1999 prices.
Quote from: Rossfan on March 10, 2007, 07:28:37 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on March 10, 2007, 01:36:23 PM
there is no tender, the builders are already in place, the delay is due to thomas davis. i call bullshit.
I doubt the builders will do the job at 1999 prices.
well the contract was signed in 1999, the money is outstanding due 100% to TD blocking the completion of the project. the feeis fixed.
who is paying for the legal challenge by the way? anyone in a dublin club who watns to ask that at a meeting will have great fun.... ;D
Quote from: dublinfella on March 11, 2007, 02:43:41 PM
well the contract was signed in 1999, the money is outstanding due 100% to TD blocking the completion of the project. the feeis fixed.
1-No Builder will do a job in 2007 at 1999 prices.
2- It was Sham Rovers who had the initial contract - now it will be the Council and I have yet to meet a builder who hasnt got a "special" public contract price !!!
3- Shamrock Rovers reneged on the whole deal by not completing the Stadium for which they had Planning Permission ,which permission expired after 5 years. It was Shams who left the Builder short of about €400,000 .
As for TD blocking completion of the project -they are raising a legal point of serious public importance so equally you could say O'Donoghue is blocking it by not going with the local Councillors wishes of amnending the plans for what is now a Municipal Stadium to accomodate Gaelic Games.
Anyway if you are the Sec of a Dublin GAA Club why doesnt one of your people ask the question ??? ya spoofer ya .