Please bear in mind that the article below is written for an English audience but as someone who works in this part of the city his comments on the North Side aren't too far off the mark.....And before the forum police jump down my throat I put it in the GAA section beacuse it's about Croke Park....
Croke Park sets the standard for coexistence
By John Inverdale
What have you done today to make you feel proud? The adopted anthem of the 2012 Olympics could justifiably have been playing from every jukebox in every bar in Dublin on Saturday night.
Togetherness: England in a huddle at Croke Park before kick-off
The tens of thousands who partied into the night were not just celebrating a great Irish victory, they were acknowledging the fact that sport, and in this case rugby, had confounded the doom-mongers in the media who had predicted an outpouring of venom and resentment against the visitors from across the Irish Sea.
It was one of the most joyous sporting occasions it has ever been my privilege to attend, and when all the revellers woke on Sunday morning (or probably afternoon) it was time to put the hangover of history to bed and embrace the future.
Which, as things stand, includes spending not far short of €400 million (£270 million) on the new Lansdowne Road - although, as we all know, these projects have a habit of increasing in cost at a rather alarming rate.
There are still various planning hoops to be jumped through, but essentially the new stadium is going to be like the old stadium, only more modern.
It's going to have roughly the same capacity of 50,000 and if/when Irish rugby internationals return to their traditional home and leave the 83,000-capacity Croke Park behind, it may be a bit like going to the local corner shop rather than Asda.
Those of you who were lucky enough to get a ticket for the game on Saturday will almost certainly have gone through parts of Dublin you hadn't seen before, and which you were probably shocked by. There are some estates which architecturally wouldn't be out of place in Bucharest, and some streets of deprivation that are a throwback to a time long before the Celtic Tiger revolution made the Irish economy the envy of most countries in Europe.
Gang warfare is rife in the city and, by common consent, the health service is a shambles. Which means you could argue there are better things to be spending €400 million on than a new, and some would say unnecessary, football and rugby stadium.
This is not an issue unique to Dublin. While the North-West of England harbours some of the worst sink estates in the country, Liverpool and Everton go their own merry ways in planning individual super-stadiums, when a joint venture combining blue and red would free up invaluable space and hundreds of millions of pounds to be invested in regenerating the area.
Huge arenas sit idle for the majority of their lives. While Tottenham Hotspur search endlessly for a home to replace White Hart Lane, the Emirates Stadium lies empty on alternate Saturdays barely an Arsene Wenger pout away.
Don't trot out the old cliches about the fans never accepting the idea of ground-sharing. It's about leadership and vision on the part of the clubs concerned, working in tandem with the local authorities.
There's a bigger picture out there than what colour scarf you wear, and if diehard Gaelic sports fans can welcome rugby and football to Croke Park, the two sides of the great Merseyside and north London divides can certainly coexist.
The great thing about Croke Park on Saturday was not just that it looked great, but that it 'felt' right. I'm sure all the football fans who go there in the next couple of weeks will feel similarly at home. All the talk years ago about the need to build a new 'national stadium' for Ireland was made to seem redundant. The country already has one.
The next stage for Croke Park is to replace the terracing on Hill 16 (but not change the name) and then, in keeping with a country accelerating through the premier league of Europe, it would have arguably one of the finest grounds on the continent.
The corner has been well and truly turned in Ireland. As Saturday night hazily became Sunday morning, and the talk became increasingly more honest (and inevitably less coherent), it was hard to find anyone who didn't think it would be something of a come-down to return in future to a much smaller venue for such a big occasion. So do they have to?"
well written article. inverdale has surpassed himself since the start of the rugby season with his coverage. As for the Irish national stadium quip at the end. Did anyone who voted yes to open Croke Park up seriously believe anything else would result?. BTW, How many Rugby only schools in Ireland North and South broke with tradition and arranged to coach Gaelic in their schools this week all in keeping with the new found spirit of sharing or have we sucked this in as a myth as well?
Some may remember the interview that took place a few years back between John Inverdale and Jarlath Burns on Radio 5 where Inverdale had his road to Damascus about gaelic games..... seems to me a fair and open-minded English journo.
why has a corner been turned?
The people who were at the match on saturday were people who always go to rugby matches, who are well used to listening to the english national anthem before games, and the 'die-hard sports fans' that have become very common in this country. They love to support a winning team and desert the sinking ship like rats once water starts getting in. The latter bunch pretty much just do what they're told out of fear of being exposed for the band-wagon hoppers that they are.
The truth is that there was never any liklihood of dissent towards the english national anthem, not from the people at that game anyway.
To turn a corner, lets play it at a GAA match, and see the reaction there.
An interesting aside that no one ever highlighted here. The last few times (at least twice) England soccer team has played here, the FAI decided it would be better not to play their national anthem, and it wasn't played. I don't recall much uproar over that. Is it any wonder they rioted on both of those occasions when they were over. Another point; when Lichtenstein played there a few years ago, many people in the crowd sat down when their anthem was played. Why? Because their anthem is 'God Save the Queen'.
There is nothing different about 'modern/official' Ireland this week from last week. A few rugby fans and a few others who managed to get tickets didn't boo during the english national anthem, because the media told them not to.
And who made it an issue in the first place? JJ Barrett aside, I don't know of anyone within the GAA who mentioned anything about anthems. And Barrett hasn't much credibility these days. The only one who mentioned it were the media and the celtic jersey anti-foreign games brigade that protested outside. Oh, and the British government. Lets not forget their gem about the 'wreath laying ceremony', saying they weren't going to do anything because the GAA told them not to, when no such discussion ever took place. And what about Tom McGuirk trying to find some significance in the fact that Girvan Dempsey scored a try in, supposedly, the same spot Micheal Hogan was shot in. Some security guard told him apparently. I've news for you Tom, its very unlikely that was the spot given the pitch has moved and twisted and turned more than once since those days. And even if it was, how is it significant.
The significance people are trying to attribute to last week is nothing short of embarrassing, and the most tragic thing about it is that there is a strong implication that the GAA were at least partly at fault for many of the ills in Irish society and the soured relations through history with our English neighbours. Yet GAA people, like many of those here, are proud of last saturday. Proud of what? That the GAA was at conflict with the English for so long and that it took a rugby team to come over and solve all our problems for us.
And on Inverdale's article. It was written by someone who obviously hasn't a clue, and should maybe stick to writing what he does know about (whatever that might be). Sticking his nose in and suggesting that Croke Park become the national stadium is irresponsible.
I think we all know theres not going to be any new Landsdowne Road. In my opinion Sean Kelly duped the GAA membership into giving up our stadium. I for one, don't need to be constantly reminded of it.
Inverdale has been an apostle of Gaelic games in the English media for a long while. I first noticed him when he did a radio piece on some BBC sports programme in the run-up to the 2001 AIF that was very positive about the GAA and the games. It was done in tones of admiration and in the style of introducing the British public to a great undiscovered sporting phenomenon on their doorstep. He attended that game and did another piece after it, as I remember.
He's been back since and certainly attended this year's hurling final – I heard him talking on TV about how he was enthralled by the skill of 'King Henry'. All his TV pieces around the France and England rugby games have been very complimentary to both Ireland and the GAA.
One lapse, which had me throwing something at the telly on Saturday, was when he explained why they were going on so much about the historical context to viewers, as he put it, "on the mainland". I forgave him, though, because of the positive balance in his ledger. Unfortunately, this usage has now entered the language of the British media because we've allowed it and, of course the public will follow. The pass is lost and we will have to live with the consequences unless we start protesting (at official level, even) to the media, the press council, whatever. Which reminds me – I must fire off am email to the BBC. I invite anyone here who feels likewise to do the same.
What really pissed me off was that Keith Wood let it pass.
Are you slightly picky there Hardy?
After all if that is the worst thing he said I imagine you could let it pass
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 09:04:25 AM
One lapse, which had me throwing something at the telly on Saturday, was when he explained why they were going on so much about the historical context to viewers, as he put it, "on the mainland". I forgave him, though, because of the positive balance in his ledger. Unfortunately, this usage has now entered the language of the British media because we've allowed it and, of course the public will follow. The pass is lost and we will have to live with the consequences unless we start protesting (at official level, even) to the media, the press council, whatever. Which reminds me – I must fire off am email to the BBC. I invite anyone here who feels likewise to do the same.
Hardy
That interview was where Jarlath invited Inverdale to attend a gaelic match and the rest is history.
BTW, they never did settle for what to call these two islands collectively - i.e Iberia for Spain and Portugal, Hispaniola for the Dominican Rep/Haiti. Across the water, they'd still like it to be known as the British Isles........ :-\
BT7 - I was reading your piece and intending to post a quick 'spot-on' until ....
So spot-on, excpet for your last two paragraphs. You can't shoot every messenger who expreses an opinion, just because it conflicts with your own. So lay off my mate John!
And continually repeating the insult to the GAA membership that they are mere dupes, misled by the wiles of Sean Kelly, is wearing very thin and getting very tiresome. It would be credible if the 'no' campaigners had been so upset when there really was a bit of chicanery with the democratic process when the issue was voted on under the sainted Seán McCague.
I think we can rest easy tonight, Irelands sport is united, Gaelic sports will now have a few more of the scarves and totties brigade at their games. Support for the GAA is at an all time high......
Rubbish, we have opened the floodgates for a professional GAA, a more anglicised Irish society, and put in motion the tdeath march of our precious association, FFS we are thast unapolgetically falling over ourselves to promote English symbolism we are singing it in the very faces of our best amateur Gaelic players, There should have been outright condemnation from this board of those who would bait our amatuer sportspeople. Now that is the biggest insult of all.
The only thing that I was against and still am against is that now the media are going to be jumping on the bandwagon of asking the GAA to open Croke Park full time to all sports because Lansdowne Road is going to cost the IRFU too much etc. The media love rugby by the way, why else would it get so much attention from all quarters for every game Ireland play or the provinces either?
Hardy - I fixed that there now.
Farraendeelin, i believe that most of the population want it now.....
FAM – I didn't know/remember the Jarlath link to Inverdale's 2001 pieces – thanks.
The 'mainland' tag does annoy me. I've come to terms with 'the British Isles' as a geographical expression, not a political one. At least that's how I choose to see it. "West-European Archipelago" or the like would be too cumbersome. And just like the Lions, if we tried 'British and Irish Isles', it would be shortened everywhere except in Ireland. But 'mainland' clearly denotes minor status for this island. I don't know any other example in the world where the term is used for a landmass less than at least ten times larger than the 'offshore' island.
I can say for certain that it has only come into use in recent times. Because, when I was in UCD, a generation ago, we had a lecturer who was English and a great character. One day he was introducing something discovered by Faraday, I think and mentioned that he'd been a professor at Cambridge, or wherever. Somebody in the class ventured a slag – "where's that?". He turned around and said, "it's on the mainland". It was a brilliant riposte because it was his own idea – we'd never heard the term before and we thought it was very funny and a great score for him. I never thought it would become almost standard and accepted, even by Irish people.
BT-7 - you did?
:)
Never mind - at least you're reasonable and sensible. Now this, on the other hand:
QuoteRubbish, we have opened the floodgates for a professional GAA, a more anglicised Irish society, and put in motion the tdeath march of our precious association, FFS we are thast unapolgetically falling over ourselves to promote English symbolism we are singing it in the very faces of our best amateur Gaelic players, There should have been outright condemnation from this board of those who would bait our amatuer sportspeople. Now that is the biggest insult of all.
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: realredhandfan on March 01, 2007, 09:22:02 AM
Farraendeelin, i believe that most of the population want it now.....
Better stop it, then.
I know, I know - but the problem for those against it is that I'd venture most of the GAA wants it as well.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 09:23:03 AM
FAM – I didn't know/remember the Jarlath link to Inverdale's 2001 pieces – thanks.
The 'mainland' tag does annoy me. I've come to terms with 'the British Isles' as a geographical expression, not a political one. At least that's how I choose to see it. "West-European Archipelago" or the like would be too cumbersome. And just like the Lions, if we tried 'British and Irish Isles', it would be shortened everywhere except in Ireland. But 'mainland' clearly denotes minor status for this island. I don't know any other example in the world where the term is used for a landmass less than at least ten times larger than the 'offshore' island.
I can say for certain that it has only come into use in recent times. Because, when I was in UCD, a generation ago, we had a lecturer who was English and a great character. One day he was introducing something discovered by Faraday, I think and mentioned that he'd been a professor at Cambridge, or wherever. Somebody in the class ventured a slag – "where's that?". He turned around and said, "it's on the mainland". It was a brilliant riposte because it was his own idea – we'd never heard the term before and we thought it was very funny and a great score for him. I never thought it would become almost standard and accepted, even by Irish people.
I knew a Cork teacher, Hardy, who, at the start of the academic year, would spend a few days stroking out the London prefix to Derry in his pupils' new atlases. I'm not sure how he got round the Brit Isles thing but I'm sure it equally annoyed him!
To my mind, nothing wrong with calling the 'other' island Britain - just as a reminder of what the Romans called it when they
conquered the place!
Yeah, I added an 'in my opinion' to that 'duped' sentence.
I know. Hence my smiley.
How did he dupe us, by the way? I hate being duped. I hate even more not understanding how I was duped, so I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know.
You weren't duped. You knew what you were about. Many didn't though, and were let believe what they read in the papers. But I think you knew thats what I meant.
So what's the solution? Another ban - no GAA members to read papers? Or wouldn't it be better for the 'no' side to mount an effective campaign? The media is part of democracy these days. Possibly the most important part. There's no point in the losing side whinging that the winners ran a better campaign (if that's what happened).
And I'd still have more time for the 'perversion of democracy' argument if its proponents had been equally vocal about McCague playing fast and loose with vote counting and people disappearing into the jacks to pervert their mandate and bags of money being put on the table by the government on the eve of a vote. I think it's a reasonable conjecture that the 'open up' decision would have come a lot EARLIER if democracy had not been perverted.
He was going so well till he said replace the hill! ;D
Inverdale's not the worst, testimony to which was his wholehearted and unprejudiced embracing of the whole Gaelic Games culture as introduced to him by Jarlath Burns some years back.
I would worry, however, about who he's being used by to push their own narrow agenda through here:
Quote...Croke Park behind, it may be a bit like going to the local corner shop rather than Asda...something of a come-down to return in future to a much smaller venue for such a big occasion.
.
This smacks of lobbyism, and the fact that it appears in an English journal is neither here nor there; might as well have been printed in Dublin these days for all that will see it.
Unfortunately, the opening of Croke does indeed appear to be the thin edge of a particularly obese and much-sated wedge, but through all of this, the absolute line from which the GAA can never deviate is that NO gaelic game should have to make way in any way for a non-gaelic sport. Compromising of the Assocation and its values must be resisted at all costs, despite the (growing) pressure from whatever angle (usual suspects here).
If the principle of primacy for gaelic games is undermined, then the soul of this organisation has truly been sold, and can never be bought back.
jeez hardy,
even I wouldnt be upset by the term 'mainland'
more upset by the use of 'med-cine' rather than 'med-i-cine' to be honest :D
as for 'saint mccague'
I disliked te wee hoor more than kelly. I may be a dinosaur, but at least I am consisten (I reckon)
That amazes me! I hadn't realised there was such ready acceptance of it - especially among the GAA community. Do you not see it as patronising, big-brotherly, condescending, etc.?
It must be a generation thing - people who have grown up with it accept it. Those of us who witnessed its introduction are almost outraged by it - it feels like throwing in the towel on the whole history of our relationship with Britain, which has seen us insisting that we're equal entities.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 12:17:06 PM
That amazes me! I hadn't realised there was such ready acceptance of it - especially among the GAA community. Do you not see it as patronising, big-brotherly, condescending, etc.?
It must be a generation thing - people who have grown up with it accept it. Those of us who witnessed its introduction are almost outraged by it - it feels like throwing in the towel on the whole history of our relationship with Britain, which has seen us insisting that we're equal entities.
Just to throw my tuppence worth in. Everybody I know (prod/taig/unionist/nationalist/whatever) would use the term mainland in everyday speech (not that it would come up that often), in the same way that everybody would use Derry (even the ones who would use Londonderry in a more 'formal' setting). I don't think it's anything to do with political affiliations or big brother syndrome, it's just shothand for the next lump of rock along from us. Most English people talk about the mainland when they mean continental Europe and I'm fairly sure they don't feel any sort of great inferiority complex.
I don't think it's generally accepted at all Hardy, despite what appears to said on here. There is only one mainland I have ever heard people refer to and that's mainland Europe. Britain is just another Island but I've never heard of it described as the mainland, unless you're from Jersey etc. I too would have a problem with us calling it the mainland as it's a completely inaccurate statement in modern Ireland. I'd forgive inverdale the slip though, he seems like an alright lad, and he more than balanced it with his insight and reports on the GAA.
QuoteMost English people talk about the mainland when they mean continental Europe and I'm fairly sure they don't feel any sort of great inferiority complex.
If someone said 'mainland' to me, I'd assume it was Continental Europe to which they were referring. In my experience, English people talking about 'the mainland' are talking about their own island, but that said, it would usually be mentioned with reference to our island. I guess it has stemmed from reference to NI, as part of the UK.
That's the whole point Sammy. Europe IS the mainland. Britain and Ireland are approximately equally islands off the mainland. For Britain to think of itself as the mainland for Ireland (and it never did until the media started to use the term) is ludicrous. It's not a political issue for me - it's national pride (or chauvinism, maybe).
As I say, I hadn't realised until today and I'm absolutely AMAZED that it has grown into acceptance in Ireland. It proves the power of the media. I'm sure those of my vintage here will agree that it's a relatively recent coinage. I remember resistance to it from Irish public people when it first started to appear. More than once I heard RTÉ people pull up Brits on it. I particularly remember John Bowman on the radio interrupting a British politician (I can't remember who) when he used the term. Bowman was almost incredulous and fulminated - "nobody in Ireland thinks of Britain as 'the mainland'".
Not true anymore it seems, sadly.
I view Longford as 'the mainland' here in Dublin as in "I off down the mainland to see the parents"
or is that 'the midlands'??????
OirthearMhaigheo, Billy - thank God - I thought I was going mad!
I think you're right, Billy - it started being used in reference to NI vs Britain. It first appeared as 'mainland Britain' as I remember. This then gradually became 'the mainland'. As I say, it's not a political issue for me, but I can't believe that an uber-chuckie like Lynchbhoy is OK with it! ;)
Quote from: SammyG on March 01, 2007, 12:30:09 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 12:17:06 PM
That amazes me! I hadn't realised there was such ready acceptance of it - especially among the GAA community. Do you not see it as patronising, big-brotherly, condescending, etc.?
It must be a generation thing - people who have grown up with it accept it. Those of us who witnessed its introduction are almost outraged by it - it feels like throwing in the towel on the whole history of our relationship with Britain, which has seen us insisting that we're equal entities.
Just to throw my tuppence worth in. Everybody I know (prod/taig/unionist/nationalist/whatever) would use the term mainland in everyday speech (not that it would come up that often), in the same way that everybody would use Derry (even the ones who would use Londonderry in a more 'formal' setting). I don't think it's anything to do with political affiliations or big brother syndrome, it's just shothand for the next lump of rock along from us. Most English people talk about the mainland when they mean continental Europe and I'm fairly sure they don't feel any sort of great inferiority complex.
It may be common in the north but certainly not in the south. It doesn't bother me unduly but it is a tad ignorant.
If he was reporting from Paris he'd hardly refer to Britain as the mainland. That said I presume it was just a slip of the tongue.
Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 01, 2007, 12:01:38 PM
jeez hardy,
even I wouldnt be upset by the term 'mainland'
You are joking Lynchbhoy it is one of the most annoying and loaded terms used here, along with L*****Derry! >:(
Lynchbhoy use to live on the mainland even sounds like he's from the mainland ;D
I hate that term myself and always pull people up on it.........
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 12:46:12 PM
OirthearMhaigheo, Billy - thank God - I thought I was going mad!
I think you're right, Billy - it started being used in reference to NI vs Britain. It first appeared as 'mainland Britain' as I remember. This then gradually became 'the mainland'. As I say, it's not a political issue for me, but I can't believe that an uber-chuckie like Lynchbhoy is OK with it! ;)
And of course 'mainland Britain' is relevant only to Lindisfarne, Isle of Wight, the Hebrides, etc., Ireland is an island in her own right, Britain is an island in her own right, so when anyone speaks of the 'mainland' in reference to the north, and meaning Britain, they're invoking some magical property that some people have, i.e., that you can be from two islands at the one and the same time! ;)
I thought we were all moving on ? I thought we were mature and confident of our place in the world ? One journalist uses an ill advised term and we are outraged by it . What happened to our new found maturity ? Plenty of things have gone on over the course of the last 30 yrs on both sides that people could really be outraged about but it seems we have move on .
Don't like the term myself and would never use it , right up there with L/Derry and Northern Ireland .
Quote from: downredblack on March 01, 2007, 01:06:38 PM
I thought we were all moving on ? I thought we were mature and confident of our place in the world ? One journalist uses an ill advised term and we are outraged by it . What happened to our new found maturity ? Plenty of things have gone on over the course of the last 30 yrs on both sides that people could really be outraged about but it seems we have move on .
Don't like the term myself and would never use it , right up there with L/Derry and Northern Ireland .
Don't think anyone's ouraged by it. They just find it a bit cringeworthy in this day and age.
Sorry - guilty. I said I was outraged. OK - OTT. But not much. And it's not about politics at all.
Never outraged myself, usually see it as an opportunity to point out to English people how uninformed, ignorant and jingoistic they remain. Often very helpful in negotiations. :P
I think the way people react to the term mainland has something to do with a feeling of " you might of ruled us once but not anymore " ( excluding the six counties ) . I think it does have political connotations , lets face it more or less everything on this fair land is political .Even our sports .
Quote from: SammyG on March 01, 2007, 12:30:09 PM
Just to throw my tuppence worth in. Everybody I know (prod/taig/unionist/nationalist/whatever) would use the term mainland in everyday speech (not that it would come up that often), in the same way that everybody would use Derry (even the ones who would use Londonderry in a more 'formal' setting). I don't think it's anything to do with political affiliations or big brother syndrome, it's just shothand for the next lump of rock along from us. Most English people talk about the mainland when they mean continental Europe and I'm fairly sure they don't feel any sort of great inferiority complex.
Sammy
That's simply not true that 'mainland' is used by the vast majority of people in the north.
I think I'm a reasonable man and I know of few who would refer to Britain as the 'mainland', unless they just happen to be from a particular section of the northern Protestant fraternity.
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 12:46:12 PM
OirthearMhaigheo, Billy - thank God - I thought I was going mad!
I think you're right, Billy - it started being used in reference to NI vs Britain. It first appeared as 'mainland Britain' as I remember. This then gradually became 'the mainland'. As I say, it's not a political issue for me, but I can't believe that an uber-chuckie like Lynchbhoy is OK with it! ;)
I suppose I have just become apathetic to it
there are far worse things the media have brainwahsed yez all into accepting :o
the use of UK instead of england and 'med-cine' make my blood boil
londonderry doesnt, as there is no such place :D
QuoteIf someone said 'mainland' to me, I'd assume it was Continental Europe to which they were referring
I'd be the same Billy. I've never heard anyone I know call Britain the 'mainland'. (Apart from a few lads from Northern Ireland). I always see imperialistic and arrogant connotations.
I consider Ireland to be a peer of Britain. As such my 'mainland' (and it's seldom used either) is Continental Europe.
Whenever I'm in London, I always tell people I'm going back to the mainland shortly. They giggle.
I don't like the term mainland, but I don't lose any sleep over it. I just put it down to ignorance (in it's truest sense) and nothing more.
As for Londonderry, I think it's somewhere near Derry.
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on March 01, 2007, 10:49:13 AM
Unfortunately, the opening of Croke does indeed appear to be the thin edge of a particularly obese and much-sated wedge, but through all of this, the absolute line from which the GAA can never deviate is that NO gaelic game should have to make way in any way for a non-gaelic sport. Compromising of the Assocation and its values must be resisted at all costs, despite the (growing) pressure from whatever angle (usual suspects here).
Many of the objections to the opening of Croke Park are legitimate, but they seem hard to measure. For example, I accept that this might be a fillip to rugby and a day may come when we regret ever letting them darken our door. But how will we know for sure that that was what caused the presumed future decline of the GAA? To quote Zhou Enlai (again) on an event much less important than maters GAA, it's too early to say. And to quote me, we might never know.
However, a definite line in the sand can be drawn at the notion that a single GAA match can be moved for other sports. It's not very likely - soccer and rugby won't need Croke Park that often - but if it does happen, we might as well sell the place to the government and become tenants.
Sammy,
QuoteEverybody I know (prod/taig/unionist/nationalist/whatever) would use the term mainland in everyday speech
absolute c**k. I don't know of a single Catholic / nationalist friend who would ever have used the phrase.
To do so would imply you accept Britain as some sort of motherland, with Ireland relegated to some sort of provincial outpost.
Ridiculous.
Im with snatter on this one,Mainland my arse i have never heard any Irish man desribe it as that
Only time i've ever heard that expression is when im on the Aran islandS and it's used to desribe Ireland
I'm just in from the pub. There's no concept of closing time in my local. That has its positives and its negatives, but my rugby alickadoo friend told me a good one I had to tell yiz: Good old GAA – gave England the Mayo dressing room.
If they renamed themselves 'centre of the universe' I couldn't care less. I would not find it insulting, rather I would just see it as cringeworthy like the use of 'Great' or any other 19th century notion they sometimes hang on to.
It is actually comical a realtively small island beside the biggest landmass on earth calling itself 'mainland'. You have to laugh.
But it's hardly worth getting upset over is it?
Quote from: Fiodoir Ard Mhacha on March 01, 2007, 09:09:24 AM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 09:04:25 AM
One lapse, which had me throwing something at the telly on Saturday, was when he explained why they were going on so much about the historical context to viewers, as he put it, "on the mainland". I forgave him, though, because of the positive balance in his ledger. Unfortunately, this usage has now entered the language of the British media because we've allowed it and, of course the public will follow. The pass is lost and we will have to live with the consequences unless we start protesting (at official level, even) to the media, the press council, whatever. Which reminds me – I must fire off am email to the BBC. I invite anyone here who feels likewise to do the same.
Hardy
That interview was where Jarlath invited Inverdale to attend a gaelic match and the rest is history.
BTW, they never did settle for what to call these two islands collectively - i.e Iberia for Spain and Portugal, Hispaniola for the Dominican Rep/Haiti. Across the water, they'd still like it to be known as the British Isles........ :-\
I've used the term "British Isles" myself when writing papers and theses in undergrad and grad school. Its simply the term that used when referring to these islands in an ecological or geological context.
Quote from: SammyG on March 01, 2007, 12:30:09 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 12:17:06 PM
That amazes me! I hadn't realised there was such ready acceptance of it - especially among the GAA community. Do you not see it as patronising, big-brotherly, condescending, etc.?
It must be a generation thing - people who have grown up with it accept it. Those of us who witnessed its introduction are almost outraged by it - it feels like throwing in the towel on the whole history of our relationship with Britain, which has seen us insisting that we're equal entities.
Just to throw my tuppence worth in. Everybody I know (prod/taig/unionist/nationalist/whatever) would use the term mainland in everyday speech (not that it would come up that often), in the same way that everybody would use Derry (even the ones who would use Londonderry in a more 'formal' setting). I don't think it's anything to do with political affiliations or big brother syndrome, it's just shothand for the next lump of rock along from us. Most English people talk about the mainland when they mean continental Europe and I'm fairly sure they don't feel any sort of great inferiority complex.
Must be a northern thing (unless its entered common usage in the south in the two years since I left). I've never heard any southerner refer to Britain as the mainland!
Quote from: J70 on March 02, 2007, 03:48:58 AM
Quote from: SammyG on March 01, 2007, 12:30:09 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 01, 2007, 12:17:06 PM
That amazes me! I hadn't realised there was such ready acceptance of it - especially among the GAA community. Do you not see it as patronising, big-brotherly, condescending, etc.?
It must be a generation thing - people who have grown up with it accept it. Those of us who witnessed its introduction are almost outraged by it - it feels like throwing in the towel on the whole history of our relationship with Britain, which has seen us insisting that we're equal entities.
Just to throw my tuppence worth in. Everybody I know (prod/taig/unionist/nationalist/whatever) would use the term mainland in everyday speech (not that it would come up that often), in the same way that everybody would use Derry (even the ones who would use Londonderry in a more 'formal' setting). I don't think it's anything to do with political affiliations or big brother syndrome, it's just shothand for the next lump of rock along from us. Most English people talk about the mainland when they mean continental Europe and I'm fairly sure they don't feel any sort of great inferiority complex.
Must be a northern thing (unless its entered common usage in the south in the two years since I left). I've never heard any southerner refer to Britain as the mainland!
Certainly not a northern thing. None of the taigs/nationalists I know use the term mainland to describe the island to which Sammy refers. I can only assume that Sammy doesn't know too many taigs and nationalists or that he is telling porkies again.
When Im in England I refer to Northern Ireland as the mainland Sammy :P
Quote from: muppet on March 02, 2007, 01:44:13 AM
I would just see it as cringeworthy like the use of 'Great' or any other 19th century notion they sometimes hang on to.
I don't see any problem with the word "Great" in "Great Britain". I think it's just the geographical name of the island - i.e. the largest of the geographical British Isles, similarly to "Great Blasket". I don't think it's meant to apply to their status as a nation, though I've no doubt many of their great unwashed think it does.
I think I've seen two different explanations for the term. One is that it distinguishes the island as a whole from "Britain", which actually comprises England and Wales only. Another is that it goes back to Norman times, and it was named in reference to the other part of their kingdom in Northern France, that we now call Brittany. So you had "Bretagne" and "Grand Bretagne".
Quote from: Hardy on March 02, 2007, 09:33:37 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 02, 2007, 01:44:13 AM
I would just see it as cringeworthy like the use of 'Great' or any other 19th century notion they sometimes hang on to.
I don't see any problem with the word "Great" in "Great Britain". I think it's just the geographical name of the island - i.e. the largest of the geographical British Isles, similarly to "Great Blasket". I don't think it's meant to apply to their status as a nation, though I've no doubt many of their great unwashed think it does.
I think I've seen two different explanations for the term. One is that it distinguishes the island as a whole from "Britain", which actually comprises England and Wales only. Another is that it goes back to Norman times, and it was named in reference to the other part of their kingdom in Northern France, that we now call Brittany. So you had "Bretagne" and "Grand Bretagne".
The second bit of your explanation is correct. Great Britain is a derivation of Grand Bretagne, it has nothing to do with being great in the Muhammed Ali sense.
Well why didn't they translate it literally to Big Britain? or Large Britain?
Quote from: SammyG on March 02, 2007, 12:40:19 PM
Quote from: Hardy on March 02, 2007, 09:33:37 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 02, 2007, 01:44:13 AM
I would just see it as cringeworthy like the use of 'Great' or any other 19th century notion they sometimes hang on to.
I don't see any problem with the word "Great" in "Great Britain". I think it's just the geographical name of the island - i.e. the largest of the geographical British Isles, similarly to "Great Blasket". I don't think it's meant to apply to their status as a nation, though I've no doubt many of their great unwashed think it does.
I think I've seen two different explanations for the term. One is that it distinguishes the island as a whole from "Britain", which actually comprises England and Wales only. Another is that it goes back to Norman times, and it was named in reference to the other part of their kingdom in Northern France, that we now call Brittany. So you had "Bretagne" and "Grand Bretagne".
The second bit of your explanation is correct. Great Britain is a derivation of Grand Bretagne, it has nothing to do with being great in the Muhammed Ali sense.
Don't know where the French come into this SammyG, it's not like the English would ever do the French bidding in relation what to call their island. Is the great not of Roman derivation, to distinguish it from its littler neighbour (Hibernia)?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_%28terminology%29#Great_Britain
Any chance we could talk about Croke Park now instead of arguing over every word used by people that you have minor/major issue with ?
Quote from: Billys Boots on March 02, 2007, 02:31:59 PM
Well why didn't they translate it literally to Big Britain? or Large Britain?
or Little Britain? ;)
QuoteAny chance we could talk about Croke Park now instead of arguing over every word used by people that you have minor/major issue with ?
We're all ears, oh King of Wikipedia!
I love the way people use Wikipedia as a definitive source for information :D
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 02, 2007, 03:30:07 PM
I love the way people use Wikipedia as a definitive source for information :D
Wikipedia's brilliant for soliving arguments. You just type in an article, supporting your point of view and then quote it and bingo, you win.
QuoteI love the way people use Wikipedia as a definitive source for information
In fairness, there's only one person on the board who thinks it's definitive. ;)
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 02, 2007, 03:30:07 PM
I love the way people use Wikipedia as a definitive source for information :D
It's far more definitive that the ramblings i seen on this thread , at least wiki cites a source or two not what a mates mates mates mate granny told them ::).
To be honest i was just sick of looking at a 4 page thread over the usage of the words great and mainland , when the original post was quite interesting
Quotefar more definitive that the ramblings i seen on this thread
How much more? 10%, 31.6%? We'd all love to know.
13.65% more definitive Billy, apparantly. See note 23.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_%28terminology%29#Notes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_%28terminology%29#Notes)
It may be more definitive but is it more interesting? :P
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 02, 2007, 04:13:56 PM
13.65% more definitive Billy, apparantly. See note 23.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_%28terminology%29#Notes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Isles_%28terminology%29#Notes)
:D :D :D
I am a wiser man than I was ten minutes ago. ;D Thanks for your hard work AZ, I thought you were supposed to be busy.
Quote from: tayto on March 01, 2007, 10:40:38 AM
He was going so well till he said replace the hill! ;D
Even I think the hill should stay. Its nothing to do with tradidtion or the name. the hill gives great athmosphere to Croker. I still remember when the Dubs finally managed to beat us after 7 years of trying ;D in 2002 the view of all the arms waving and hands clapping on the hill was spectacular. By the Way when lansdownes built its bye bye rugby and soccer as far as im concerned. Thats whats in the deal that was struck.