Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
Up Mayo
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
Having watched the going-ons today and for the past few elections, this was the most low key one i can remember, i didn't notice "lepping", his party gave him a round of appluase as he left the Dail, he shook hands with a couple of well wishers and got in his car to go to the park. Not a mayo flag in sight!!! If the Taoiseach was from across the border in 'curry would you have started this infantile thread? Me thinks not.
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 09, 2011, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
Not a mayo flag in sight!!!
There was one there alright.
Quote from: GalwayBayBoy on March 09, 2011, 02:38:18 PM
Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 09, 2011, 02:37:02 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
Not a mayo flag in sight!!!
There was one there alright.
We are still missing one or two lads with flags since Sept. 2006, hopefully they will get a lift home with the Garda driver tonight.
Not everyone was celebrating!! :
(http://img.rasset.ie/00045406-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/000453f7-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/00045412-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/00045416-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/00045418-440.jpg)
On reflection it looks like some sort of caption competition...
"ADAMS FACES CRITICISM OVER HIS DECISION TO WEAR TIE"
Who is in the last picture, the last man standing?
My effort for the caption competition: SPOT THE TOURIST.
Relax, relax, I'm only messing!
Way to miss the point, nothing to do with mayo ::), do ye get my point that hes only in govt becuase ff are so poor...do ye get that... hes only taoiseach because ff are so shite... whats there to celebrate?
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:50:59 PM
Way to miss the point, nothing to do with mayo ::), do ye get my point that hes only in govt becuase ff are so poor...do ye get that... hes only taoiseach because ff are so shite... whats there to celebrate?
You really are a clown.
He is the democratically elected Taoiseach of the country. He has brought the party from 32 seats in 2002 to 76 now.
If he, his family, his supporters and his party members can't feel some pride and enjoy this day, then it's a sad state of affairs.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 09, 2011, 02:41:51 PM
Not everyone was celebrating!! :
(http://img.rasset.ie/00045406-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/000453f7-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/00045412-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/00045416-440.jpg) (http://img.rasset.ie/00045418-440.jpg)
On reflection it looks like some sort of caption competition...
"ADAMS FACES CRITICISM OVER HIS DECISION TO WEAR TIE"
Healy Rae not in chamber- horse was clamped out side dail.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:50:59 PM
Way to miss the point, nothing to do with mayo ::), do ye get my point that hes only in govt becuase ff are so poor...do ye get that... hes only taoiseach because ff are so shite... whats there to celebrate?
Not everyday a door handle gets elected as prime minister of a country!!!
Quote from: Final Whistle on March 09, 2011, 02:54:08 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:50:59 PM
Way to miss the point, nothing to do with mayo ::), do ye get my point that hes only in govt becuase ff are so poor...do ye get that... hes only taoiseach because ff are so shite... whats there to celebrate?
Not everyday a door handle gets elected as prime minister of a country!!!
:D :D :D
Quote from: Main Street on March 09, 2011, 02:48:32 PM
Who is in the last picture, the last man standing?
Ming from Roscommon
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
I am not following the election in the south very closely. But just looking at the pictures above, what the hell is going on.
Would anyone here in a business not be wearing a full suit. What sort of place is it that it wouldnt be regarded as a bad job to rock up in a pink shirt?
I just think if they are serious about turning the country around then should act and dress like serious individuals.
Might be a silly point among what is going on but it is an attitude thing.
I suppose it is a career milestone for the guy. He has rebuilt a decimated FG to the point of getting into govt with a strong mandate. Yes there is the prevailing wind of anti-FF sentiment but he did a lot to ensure his party was there to take over. I'm not a major fan but I'll allow him and his supporters a small bit of leeway today and today only for their celebrations. There are many people at home watching them on TV though who would rather be at work if they had a job to go to so there's a balance to be had.
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
I presume you had a problem with every TD in the country celebrating a couple of weeks ago when they were declared elected?
And there was a lot more triumphalism then than there was shown today. They were actually remarking on RTÉ how muted the celebrations were in comparison to previous occasions.
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
I presume you had a problem with every TD in the country celebrating a couple of weeks ago when they were declared elected?
And there was a lot more triumphalism then than there was shown today. They were actually remarking on RTÉ how muted the celebrations were in comparison to previous occasions.
I dont like the celebrating the TDs do either tbh, ya i saw that in RTE, but were in recession now and as I said above hes getting in by default and hes everything to prove. He could be shite. Just getting elected wont gain my respect or praise, his performance will either way.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
I presume you had a problem with every TD in the country celebrating a couple of weeks ago when they were declared elected?
And there was a lot more triumphalism then than there was shown today. They were actually remarking on RTÉ how muted the celebrations were in comparison to previous occasions.
I dont like the celebrating the TDs do either tbh, ya i saw that in RTE, but were in recession now and as I said above hes getting in by default and hes everything to prove. He could be shite. Just getting elected wont gain my respect or praise, his performance will either way.
That's fair enough. But allow him to enjoy the day he's elected as leader of the country ffs
The day anybody gets a new job, they're unproven in that role, but surely they're still allowed to enjoy getting the job?
Or should the postpone that until they have their annual review and the boss says they're doing a good job?
A Mayo man with an All Ireland medal (or maybe it's just a Free State medal for our Northern Brethern), either way it just does not look right !
(http://img.rasset.ie/00045438-314.jpg)
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
That's fair enough. But allow him to enjoy the day he's elected as leader of the country ffs
The day anybody gets a new job, they're unproven in that role, but surely they're still allowed to enjoy getting the job?
Or should the postpone that until they have their annual review and the boss says they're doing a good job?
Exactly. What manner of dreary fecker would deny someone a cheer upon becoming leader of their country?
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:09:22 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
I presume you had a problem with every TD in the country celebrating a couple of weeks ago when they were declared elected?
And there was a lot more triumphalism then than there was shown today. They were actually remarking on RTÉ how muted the celebrations were in comparison to previous occasions.
I dont like the celebrating the TDs do either tbh, ya i saw that in RTE, but were in recession now and as I said above hes getting in by default and hes everything to prove. He could be shite. Just getting elected wont gain my respect or praise, his performance will either way.
That's fair enough. But allow him to enjoy the day he's elected as leader of the country ffs
The day anybody gets a new job, they're unproven in that role, but surely they're still allowed to enjoy getting the job?
Or should the postpone that until they have their annual review and the boss says they're doing a good job?
Its not quite as clearcut as your making out, hes getting a job knowing find well the people in before him were useless, thats an unusual scenario and not applicable to me or you when we get a job, also the economic circumstances make it alot different, alot of angry people watching that today are unemployed like me and im sure im not the only pissed off watching it and the celebrating to me is a total fad when he is getting in by default and not based on his own past performance or his cv. He may not even carry out any of his mandate.. who knows.. but for i'll celebrate if he performs well and gets this mess sorted.
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:22:12 PM
That's fair enough. But allow him to enjoy the day he's elected as leader of the country ffs
Errrm, he's not the leader of "the country" but the State. Big difference, and semantics aside, us nordies wherever we are in the world do keep an eye on things in the 26.
Quote from: NAG1 on March 09, 2011, 02:58:59 PM
I am not following the election in the south very closely. But just looking at the pictures above, what the hell is going on.
Would anyone here in a business not be wearing a full suit. What sort of place is it that it wouldnt be regarded as a bad job to rock up in a pink shirt?
I just think if they are serious about turning the country around then should act and dress like serious individuals.
Might be a silly point among what is going on but it is an attitude thing.
I find it quite refreshing to see the ordinary Joe's is places of power and don't be fooled that someone in a suit is any more competent than anyone else.
Quote from: johnneycool on March 09, 2011, 04:06:24 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on March 09, 2011, 02:58:59 PM
I am not following the election in the south very closely. But just looking at the pictures above, what the hell is going on.
Would anyone here in a business not be wearing a full suit. What sort of place is it that it wouldnt be regarded as a bad job to rock up in a pink shirt?
I just think if they are serious about turning the country around then should act and dress like serious individuals.
Might be a silly point among what is going on but it is an attitude thing.
I find it quite refreshing to see the ordinary Joe's is places of power and don't be fooled that someone in a suit is any more competent than anyone else.
Yeah, not a bit of harm. They should shake things up a bit. The usual bullsh*t talk that goes on might not be so easy to get away with when there's a few straight talkers around the place.
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 04:09:35 PM
Yeah, not a bit of harm. They should shake things up a bit. The usually bullsh*t talk that goes on might not be so easy to get away with when there's a few straight talkers around the place.
It's a nice thought, but if George Lee - a man more accustomed to Byzantine setups than the likes of Ming - is anything to go by I'd say it won't be long before they're bored out of their skulls
Quote from: deiseach on March 09, 2011, 04:11:23 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 04:09:35 PM
Yeah, not a bit of harm. They should shake things up a bit. The usually bullsh*t talk that goes on might not be so easy to get away with when there's a few straight talkers around the place.
It's a nice thought, but if George Lee - a man more accustomed to Byzantine setups than the likes of Ming - is anything to go by I'd say it won't be long before they're bored out of their skulls
Correctomundo. I think (fear) they'll do their nut in a place like that with all the stuffiness. And about the straight talkers, they won't be allowed talk. The Technical Group must appoint a max of 3 people to talk, and they have to rotate the right. So I doubt we'll be hearing much from them on the floor of the Dail unfortunately. If they have a mind to it, their best work will come in getting on committees etc.
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
I presume you had a problem with every TD in the country celebrating a couple of weeks ago when they were declared elected?
And there was a lot more triumphalism then than there was shown today. They were actually remarking on RTÉ how muted the celebrations were in comparison to previous occasions.
the lifting of newly elected td's onto the shoulders really has to be done away with. Absolutely ridiculous looking imo.
As for Enda, dear God but that was an awful speech, I actually thought it was a Mario Rosenstock skit when I was listening (actually, maybe I should check that it wasn't - too quick to judge him maybe). On the presumption that it wasn't, he must be the least inspiring person on the island.
Quote from: johnneycool on March 09, 2011, 04:06:24 PM
Quote from: NAG1 on March 09, 2011, 02:58:59 PM
I am not following the election in the south very closely. But just looking at the pictures above, what the hell is going on.
Would anyone here in a business not be wearing a full suit. What sort of place is it that it wouldnt be regarded as a bad job to rock up in a pink shirt?
I just think if they are serious about turning the country around then should act and dress like serious individuals.
Might be a silly point among what is going on but it is an attitude thing.
I find it quite refreshing to see the ordinary Joe's is places of power and don't be fooled that someone in a suit is any more competent than anyone else.
hear hear
Sligonian, isn't it because Fine Gael won, you don't like the result and your going to sulk. What makes it worse he is a Mayoman. O and you talk about getting a job again, it wasn't on Fine Gael's or a Mayoman's watch that you lost it.
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:18:35 PM
Quote from: Tubberman on March 09, 2011, 03:04:33 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 03:00:28 PM
Quote from: Sandino on March 09, 2011, 02:55:55 PM
If as you say you were picked to play for sligo because all others in you position were poor and in turn, Sligo went on to beat a very very poor Tyrone team in the final, would you not celebrate?
Kenny and fine gael could be worse than ff? Couldnt they? I'll celebrate when i can find a job in Ireland again, if fine gael quicken that process then i'll be happy but seeing these people celebrate this as an achivenment is a joke,
the game isnt even started for kenny yet is my point, hes celebrating getting jersey but i judge on performance and i hope he plays well but hes got the jersey by default as the alternative have proven to be shite and hes yet to be tested.
I presume you had a problem with every TD in the country celebrating a couple of weeks ago when they were declared elected?
And there was a lot more triumphalism then than there was shown today. They were actually remarking on RTÉ how muted the celebrations were in comparison to previous occasions.
the lifting of newly elected td's onto the shoulders really has to be done away with. Absolutely ridiculous looking imo.
As for Enda, dear God but that was an awful speech, I actually thought it was a Mario Rosenstock skit when I was listening (actually, maybe I should check that it wasn't - too quick to judge him maybe). On the presumption that it wasn't, he must be the least inspiring person on the island.
After the entire FF, DUP, SF, UKIP, Lefty parties, the Catholic Church, most of RTE & Ray D'Arcy perhaps.
Maybe it was the first day nerves/anxiety but i thought Enda looked like the rabbit caught in the headlights today.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:18:35 PMthe lifting of newly elected td's onto the shoulders really has to be done away with. Absolutely ridiculous looking imo.
As for Enda, dear God but that was an awful speech, I actually thought it was a Mario Rosenstock skit when I was listening (actually, maybe I should check that it wasn't - too quick to judge him maybe). On the presumption that it wasn't, he must be the least inspiring person on the island.
After the entire FF, DUP, SF, UKIP, Lefty parties, the Catholic Church, most of RTE & Ray D'Arcy perhaps.
No, I took account of all those people, bar D'arcy, but even including him doesn't lead to me a different conclusion.
If he wasn't from Mayo, I'm sure you'd agree with me.
QuoteMaybe it was the first day nerves/anxiety but i thought Enda looked like the rabbit caught in the headlights today.
Enda needs a further 30 mins to name his ministers , maybe Varadkar or one of the others has thrown the rattle out of the pram already!
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:18:35 PMthe lifting of newly elected td's onto the shoulders really has to be done away with. Absolutely ridiculous looking imo.
As for Enda, dear God but that was an awful speech, I actually thought it was a Mario Rosenstock skit when I was listening (actually, maybe I should check that it wasn't - too quick to judge him maybe). On the presumption that it wasn't, he must be the least inspiring person on the island.
After the entire FF, DUP, SF, UKIP, Lefty parties, the Catholic Church, most of RTE & Ray D'Arcy perhaps.
No, I took account of all those people, bar D'arcy, but even including him doesn't lead to me a different conclusion.
If he wasn't from Mayo, I'm sure you'd agree with me.
I'm sure I wouldn't Bogball, I have met the man, I found him to be quite inspiring. My list still stands.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:58:14 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:18:35 PMthe lifting of newly elected td's onto the shoulders really has to be done away with. Absolutely ridiculous looking imo.
As for Enda, dear God but that was an awful speech, I actually thought it was a Mario Rosenstock skit when I was listening (actually, maybe I should check that it wasn't - too quick to judge him maybe). On the presumption that it wasn't, he must be the least inspiring person on the island.
After the entire FF, DUP, SF, UKIP, Lefty parties, the Catholic Church, most of RTE & Ray D'Arcy perhaps.
No, I took account of all those people, bar D'arcy, but even including him doesn't lead to me a different conclusion.
If he wasn't from Mayo, I'm sure you'd agree with me.
I'm sure I wouldn't Bogball, I have met the man, I found him to be quite inspiring. My list still stands.
If you could put yourself in the hypothetical position that either you or he were not from Mayo, you'd know how most of the rest of us feel.
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 05:10:46 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:58:14 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:51:18 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:34:06 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 04:18:35 PMthe lifting of newly elected td's onto the shoulders really has to be done away with. Absolutely ridiculous looking imo.
As for Enda, dear God but that was an awful speech, I actually thought it was a Mario Rosenstock skit when I was listening (actually, maybe I should check that it wasn't - too quick to judge him maybe). On the presumption that it wasn't, he must be the least inspiring person on the island.
After the entire FF, DUP, SF, UKIP, Lefty parties, the Catholic Church, most of RTE & Ray D'Arcy perhaps.
No, I took account of all those people, bar D'arcy, but even including him doesn't lead to me a different conclusion.
If he wasn't from Mayo, I'm sure you'd agree with me.
I'm sure I wouldn't Bogball, I have met the man, I found him to be quite inspiring. My list still stands.
If you could put yourself in the hypothetical position that either you or he were not from Mayo, you'd know how most of the rest of us feel.
I may or may not rate him as highly, but he still would come ahead off my list. I would also have to factor out having met the man. There are very few people he does not win over in person.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 05:16:12 PMI may or may not rate him as highly, but he still would come ahead off my list. I would also have to factor out having met the man. There are very few people he does not win over in person.
We'll agree to disagree if that suits you, but you've got to acknowledge that in the face of all that has gone on here over the past few years, for him to head into an election with a lower approval rating than the FF leader was a bit perplexing.
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 05:18:59 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 05:16:12 PMI may or may not rate him as highly, but he still would come ahead off my list. I would also have to factor out having met the man. There are very few people he does not win over in person.
We'll agree to disagree if that suits you, but you've got to acknowledge that in the face of all that has gone on here over the past few years, for him to head into an election with a lower approval rating than the FF leader was a bit perplexing.
Saddam Huessein could have got higher ratings based on the hatched job the Dublin based media has being doing on the man for years. They never wanted a Taoiseach from too far from the Pale and thats a fact.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 05:24:35 PM
They never wanted a Taoiseach from too far from the Pale and thats a fact.
No. It isn't.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 05:24:35 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 09, 2011, 05:18:59 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 05:16:12 PMI may or may not rate him as highly, but he still would come ahead off my list. I would also have to factor out having met the man. There are very few people he does not win over in person.
We'll agree to disagree if that suits you, but you've got to acknowledge that in the face of all that has gone on here over the past few years, for him to head into an election with a lower approval rating than the FF leader was a bit perplexing.
Saddam Huessein could have got higher ratings based on the hatched job the Dublin based media has being doing on the man for years. They never wanted a Taoiseach from too far from the Pale and thats a fact.
What about Cowen? Sure Clara's only about 14 mile from the Shannon. (Or Reynolds, Lynch, etc etc.)
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 09, 2011, 04:31:40 PM
Sligonian, isn't it because Fine Gael won, you don't like the result and your going to sulk. What makes it worse he is a Mayoman. O and you talk about getting a job again, it wasn't on Fine Gael's or a Mayoman's watch that you lost it.
Thats spin and rubbish, i think ive made my point in previous posts, if Enda kenny was from another party or county even Sligo i would say the same, celebrate when the job is done not beginning. As someone else said lifting up elected tds should be done away with imo.
And on the independents wardrobe, if a man talks sense and doesnt wear a suit does it change what he says, put in a idiot in a suit doesnt mean he'll be any good either.
Oh and lastly another speech from kenny there now with all great soundbites of honesty and fairness...well i'll hold you to do that enda.
Quote from: NAG1 on March 09, 2011, 02:58:59 PM
I am not following the election in the south very closely. But just looking at the pictures above, what the hell is going on.
Would anyone here in a business not be wearing a full suit. What sort of place is it that it wouldnt be regarded as a bad job to rock up in a pink shirt?
I just think if they are serious about turning the country around then should act and dress like serious individuals.
Might be a silly point among what is going on but it is an attitude thing.
Jacket and Tie expected in the Assembly.
Quote6 Parliamentary language and behaviour...
...men are expected to wear a jacket and tie during proceedings
http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/researchandlibrary/2011/2111.pdf
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
QuoteWhy the heroes welcome for the new taoiseach?
Wouldn't you just know it? We're up to our oxters in unwanted apostrophes here and then, when the rare occasion arises when you could do with one ...
Nice piece on the news about Enda and his playing days for Islandeady, nice goal he scored in the clip. Also nice to see an old photo go up in Campbell's Photo shop and we know which party their son is a town Counsellor for (& its not FG, FF or Labour) ;)
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
Did i say he shouldnt feel proud? Did I...Am i begrudging him the role? No. I am begrudging him the celebration i witnessed today as if the job was done and dusted. FFS i thought Ireland was saved with all the standing ovations, smiles and celebrations i saw today.
On my analogy id be walking into the dressing room nice and quietly and hopefully do my business on the field which is what should be focused on and the only thing that should be celebrated. What i saw today tells me kenny is so glad he got the jersey that he doesnt put the importance on the performance. Hes in now and no matter what way he spins it he better bring the change that he promised.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
Did i say he shouldnt feel proud? Did I...Am i begrudging him the role? No. I am begrudging him the celebration i witnessed today as if the job was done and dusted. FFS i thought Ireland was saved with all the standing ovations, smiles and celebrations i saw today.
On my analogy id be walking into the dressing room nice and quietly and hopefully do my business on the field which is what should be focused on and the only thing that should be celebrated. What i saw today tells me kenny is so glad he got the jersey that he doesnt put the importance on the performance. Hes in now and no matter what way he spins it he better bring the change that he promised.
You are right, they should have all booed him. They should have suspended Dail business and just booed. All day.
They should boo him tomorrow and every day of his term. In fact we should all be booing him now. Even Enda should be booing.
Booooooooooooooo!!!
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 11:50:21 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
Did i say he shouldnt feel proud? Did I...Am i begrudging him the role? No. I am begrudging him the celebration i witnessed today as if the job was done and dusted. FFS i thought Ireland was saved with all the standing ovations, smiles and celebrations i saw today.
On my analogy id be walking into the dressing room nice and quietly and hopefully do my business on the field which is what should be focused on and the only thing that should be celebrated. What i saw today tells me kenny is so glad he got the jersey that he doesnt put the importance on the performance. Hes in now and no matter what way he spins it he better bring the change that he promised.
You are right, they should have all booed him. They should have suspended Dail business and just booed. All day.
They should boo him tomorrow and every day of his term. In fact we should all be booing him now. Even Enda should be booing.
Booooooooooooooo!!!
Your like a child, did i say boo him, no. Where did you get in my posts that they should do that? Please point it out... :) go on answer my question, go on, or go off on another false tangent like the spin doctor you aspire to be 8).
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 11:50:21 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
Did i say he shouldnt feel proud? Did I...Am i begrudging him the role? No. I am begrudging him the celebration i witnessed today as if the job was done and dusted. FFS i thought Ireland was saved with all the standing ovations, smiles and celebrations i saw today.
On my analogy id be walking into the dressing room nice and quietly and hopefully do my business on the field which is what should be focused on and the only thing that should be celebrated. What i saw today tells me kenny is so glad he got the jersey that he doesnt put the importance on the performance. Hes in now and no matter what way he spins it he better bring the change that he promised.
You are right, they should have all booed him. They should have suspended Dail business and just booed. All day.
They should boo him tomorrow and every day of his term. In fact we should all be booing him now. Even Enda should be booing.
Booooooooooooooo!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up4LTKxe0PA
Sligonian, they all seemed to be at it outside, the Independents and all parties, it was like a first day back @ school athmosphere. It will all be very different tuesday.
It seems you are more strong about this because it is a Fine Gael man, don't ever remember these objections out of you before.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:01:40 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 11:50:21 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
Did i say he shouldnt feel proud? Did I...Am i begrudging him the role? No. I am begrudging him the celebration i witnessed today as if the job was done and dusted. FFS i thought Ireland was saved with all the standing ovations, smiles and celebrations i saw today.
On my analogy id be walking into the dressing room nice and quietly and hopefully do my business on the field which is what should be focused on and the only thing that should be celebrated. What i saw today tells me kenny is so glad he got the jersey that he doesnt put the importance on the performance. Hes in now and no matter what way he spins it he better bring the change that he promised.
You are right, they should have all booed him. They should have suspended Dail business and just booed. All day.
They should boo him tomorrow and every day of his term. In fact we should all be booing him now. Even Enda should be booing.
Booooooooooooooo!!!
Your like a child, did i say boo him, no. Where did you get in my posts that they should do that? Please point it out... :) go on answer my question, go on, or go off on another false tangent like the spin doctor you aspire to be 8).
So what you're saying is that he or his family shouldn't be allowed celebrate him getting the biggest job of his life??
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:05:08 AM
Sligonian, they all seemed to be at it outside, the Independents and all parties, it was like a first day back @ school athmosphere. It will all be very different tuesday.
It seems you are more strong about this because it is a Fine Gael man, don't ever remember these objections out of you before.
Id have a problem with anyone celebrating today bar kenny and his family but not in public, thats all im saying. Im more anti ff than fg, i just think fg have lied to get voted for but i will admit if proven wrong and be glad at the same time.
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
No one would begrudge Kenny/Fine Gael a day of celebration. As long as they don't take the piss ( remember Brian Cowen taking about a week around Offaly celebrating becoming FF leader and he didn't even win any kind of vote)
The honeymoon period will not last long with the media (most of whom are glad to see FF out).
Kenny may not be a good talker but if he can deliver some kind of progress on the economic front/public sector reform in the next 2 years who will care. Smooth talking isn't the be all and end all. Every workplace has people who can be really convincing in a meeting and do f**k all squared the rest of the time.
Quote from: Geoff Tipps on March 10, 2011, 12:09:12 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:01:40 AM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 11:50:21 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 11:42:27 PM
Quote from: muppet on March 09, 2011, 09:16:00 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
And would you be entitled to feel proud for wearing your county jersey?
Or would you agree with those who begrudged you wearing it and see it as nothing?
Did i say he shouldnt feel proud? Did I...Am i begrudging him the role? No. I am begrudging him the celebration i witnessed today as if the job was done and dusted. FFS i thought Ireland was saved with all the standing ovations, smiles and celebrations i saw today.
On my analogy id be walking into the dressing room nice and quietly and hopefully do my business on the field which is what should be focused on and the only thing that should be celebrated. What i saw today tells me kenny is so glad he got the jersey that he doesnt put the importance on the performance. Hes in now and no matter what way he spins it he better bring the change that he promised.
You are right, they should have all booed him. They should have suspended Dail business and just booed. All day.
They should boo him tomorrow and every day of his term. In fact we should all be booing him now. Even Enda should be booing.
Booooooooooooooo!!!
Your like a child, did i say boo him, no. Where did you get in my posts that they should do that? Please point it out... :) go on answer my question, go on, or go off on another false tangent like the spin doctor you aspire to be 8).
So what you're saying is that he or his family shouldn't be allowed celebrate him getting the biggest job of his life??
No celebrate in private all they want, where did i say otherwise? .
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
I actualy like the way kenny comes across tbh, but my fear is he is out of his depth and may backtrack on a alot of his promises, and sitting in my unemployed chair, knowing immigration is on the way for alot longer next time, seeing scenes of celebration today it sickenend me as in my mind its way to premature and unjustified.
So the Taoiseach's salary still bigger than Barack Obama?
Quote from: ross4life on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 AM
So the Taoiseach's salary still bigger than Barack Obama?
Probably is there ross4life, lets hope this is just a start.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:31:36 AM
Quote from: ross4life on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 AM
So the Taoiseach's salary still bigger than Barack Obama?
Probably is there ross4life, lets hope this is just a start.
Why defines it a good start? To me a good start would of bigger cuts there for cabinet. I havent seen it myself but on Vincent Browne there saying that fg are going to continue ffs 4 yr cuts plan for 2yrs... :-\ it worries me when i hear this but i may have misheard..
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
I guess I'm going against the general consensus here but I do have sympathy for you and the position you find yourself in. I imagine that if I found myself unemployed and knowing that I was being forced to emigrate, through no fault of my own, I'd be a bit pissed off to see anyone celebrating around Dail Eireann yesterday. There's precious little to celebrate-at the moment certainly.
Still, I think you are being a bit hard on Enda Kenny and his supporters. I doubt if anyone connected with the changing of the guard yesterday was being triumphalist in any way and you have to allow them all a chance to let off some pent up steam.
Now, if Enda Kenny is a man of his word and I am certain he is, all concerned will have got stuck in to their new duties by now.
I'm sorry to hear that you are likely to emigrate once more and I sincerely hope you will both find employment abroad and get the chance to return home again in the none too distant future.
In brief; my take on the craic yesterday is:
Celebrating yesterday is understandable but celebrating tomorrow is inexcusable.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 10, 2011, 01:27:24 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
I guess I'm going against the general consensus here but I do have sympathy for you and the position you find yourself in. I imagine that if I found myself unemployed and knowing that I was being forced to emigrate, through no fault of my own, I'd be a bit pissed off to see anyone celebrating around Dail Eireann yesterday. There's precious little to celebrate-at the moment certainly.
Still, I think you are being a bit hard on Enda Kenny and his supporters. I doubt if anyone connected with the changing of the guard yesterday was being triumphalist in any way and you have to allow them all a chance to let off some pent up steam.
Now, if Enda Kenny is a man of his word and I am certain he is, all concerned will have got stuck in to their new duties by now.
I'm sorry to hear that you are likely to emigrate once more and I sincerely hope you will both find employment abroad and get the chance to return home again in the none too distant future.
In brief; my take on the craic yesterday is:
Celebrating yesterday is understandable but celebrating tomorrow is inexcusable.
Lar I was in Sligonians position due to the last administration, I already emmigrated. I have the opposite reaction to Sligonian, I feel a little cheer to see the new FG/Labour coalition being so big. I am also happy to see the decimated FF party crushed between SF, Indp. & the lefties. Also glad to see the Greens gone the way of the PD's (would take both ahead of FF though).
Quote from: ross4life on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 AM
So the Taoiseach's salary still bigger than Barack Obama?
I'm guessing Enda's life story won't command quite the same publishers advance that Barack's will, neither will his price on the after dinner circuit, nor his value to a company as it's new non-executive director.
The salary of 200k is probably the min it can be in order to attract half decent candidates to the role.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Lar I was in Sligonians position due to the last administration, I already emmigrated. I have the opposite reaction to Sligonian, I feel a little cheer to see the new FG/Labour coalition being so big. I am also happy to see the decimated FF party crushed between SF, Indp. & the lefties. Also glad to see the Greens gone the way of the PD's (would take both ahead of FF though).
I don't mean to keep having a go at you mayo, but can you explain that?
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 10, 2011, 03:01:40 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Lar I was in Sligonians position due to the last administration, I already emmigrated. I have the opposite reaction to Sligonian, I feel a little cheer to see the new FG/Labour coalition being so big. I am also happy to see the decimated FF party crushed between SF, Indp. & the lefties. Also glad to see the Greens gone the way of the PD's (would take both ahead of FF though).
I don't mean to keep having a go at you mayo, but can you explain that?
While I appreciate we would have been in financial stormy water like most countries anyways, we found ourselves in this terrible mire due to the incompetence of Fianna Fáil led government. I found myself in the same position as 450,000+ others (most new to this experience) I feal as a result of Bertinomics, Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowan (amongst others).
I always found Fine Gael the best fit, but Bertie and co. almost made me a Zealot. That and I really saw Enda Kenny as the polar opposite of the corruption at the heart of the Drumcondra Don and his FF Mafioso. I have to apologise if my retoric is becoming a bit ott here, but thats the vitriol which the thought of Bertie Ahern inspires in me. I know alot of people may think its because Kenny is from Mayo that I have such positive mood towards FG, but I was a bit of a fan of Noonan before and was really happy to see him come back to the fore.
Right, just to play devil's advocate see attached link to FGs manifesto in 2002:
http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/election_2002/parties/layout.pdf
Leaving aside the usual FG concerns of public service expenditure (this was always a FG policy as a centre right party) note how they intended to cut lower tax rate to 30%; income thresholds for higher education grants to be raised by 80%; an education credit account of €6k for early school leavers (?!); double mortgage relief for 1st 5 years; increase threshold for shared ownership...
I dont see anything in here that would have cooled the economy. There's no warning that we were over-reliant on revenue generated by a housing bubble.
Labour on the other hand, we know, would have found it impossible not to bend to union demands under the social partnershiop while things were good after 2002. From a brief read of the document below we can see that, as opposed to FG, they in fact promised to invest in public sector services. They also sought to address the fact that housing had become too expensive for young people so they proposed to invest further by building 50000 (!) houses over the subsequent 5 years. No mention of the fact that we needed to deflate the housing market as opposed to further investing in it:
http://www.labour.ie/download/pdf/manifesto_election_2002.pdf
Quote from: Lar Naparka on March 10, 2011, 01:27:24 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 09, 2011, 02:27:12 PM
Given the countrys states seeing these clowns lepping up and down, and standing ovations, and big crowds of cheering well wishers is pissing me off.
Enda kenny nearly lost his seat in 2002, lost the 2007 election LUCKIEST LOSS EVER, and only because fianna fail were so bad hes getting in now. Its looking likely hes going to have won that election on a pack of lies but that will be known later..
Its like me getting starting for Sligo on sunday not because im any good, its because the others players in my position are so shite..
Although i do hope he gets it right and fixes the problems. I really do. Good luck to him but fck the celebrating clowns.
I guess I'm going against the general consensus here but I do have sympathy for you and the position you find yourself in. I imagine that if I found myself unemployed and knowing that I was being forced to emigrate, through no fault of my own, I'd be a bit pissed off to see anyone celebrating around Dail Eireann yesterday. There's precious little to celebrate-at the moment certainly.
Still, I think you are being a bit hard on Enda Kenny and his supporters. I doubt if anyone connected with the changing of the guard yesterday was being triumphalist in any way and you have to allow them all a chance to let off some pent up steam.
Now, if Enda Kenny is a man of his word and I am certain he is, all concerned will have got stuck in to their new duties by now.
I'm sorry to hear that you are likely to emigrate once more and I sincerely hope you will both find employment abroad and get the chance to return home again in the none too distant future.
In brief; my take on the craic yesterday is:
Celebrating yesterday is understandable but celebrating tomorrow is inexcusable.
Fair point tbf, on another point why are you so certain he is a man of his word?, id like mayogodhelpus to come in on that too, Yer confidence in him is way above mine...i dont trust any politicians word anymore but ye seem to blindly imo,, as pointed out earlier his cabinet reductions were a uninspiring start.
I dunno lads. The more I see, the more worried I get. I hope it's the rare case of the politician who appears badly, but is good in private and in the job.
(http://www.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/90217545.jpg)
And then you see this. If you changed the name Deenihan to Healy-Rae, would it seem a lot different?
QuoteMr Deenihan today launched a campaign which will see Co Kerry marketed across the UK over the coming weeks.
The €1.3m campaign will see the 'Kerry Bus', a double decker bus covered in images of the county, take part in the London St Patrick's Day Parade.
The bus will also serve as a mobile tourist office which will travel all over the United Kingdom over a 35-day period in a campaign aimed to restore tourist numbers to the region and attract specific groups such as golfers.
Quote from: AZOffaly on March 10, 2011, 04:50:02 PM
I dunno lads. The more I see, the more worried I get. I hope it's the rare case of the politician who appears badly, but is good in private and in the job.
(http://www.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/90217545.jpg)
And then you see this. If you changed the name Deenihan to Healy-Rae, would it seem a lot different?
QuoteMr Deenihan today launched a campaign which will see Co Kerry marketed across the UK over the coming weeks.
The €1.3m campaign will see the 'Kerry Bus', a double decker bus covered in images of the county, take part in the London St Patrick's Day Parade.
The bus will also serve as a mobile tourist office which will travel all over the United Kingdom over a 35-day period in a campaign aimed to restore tourist numbers to the region and attract specific groups such as golfers.
When i was down in Kerry i was impressed with how they make the most of there natural beauty, but its advertised to the hilt anyway, whereas Sligo/Donegal/Mayo/Galway so beautiful parts and we attract alot less tourists, and alot less advertising. Sligo for me is a untaped market tourism wise whereas Kerry is saturated already.
Nice office for the Taosieach, but the messers grin doesnt inspire me anyway but as you said he has to be better in private surely fingers crossed but i am worried about the future.
He does look rather clownish in some of those images. But I'm willing to give him a pass on the basis that it's reasonable to be giddy upon becoming leader of the country State. Look at the face of a certain former corporal on becoming head bottle washer of his adopted land:
(http://ultraorange.net/media/2007/09/movers-hindenburg-and-hitler.jpg)
"Look, ma! I'm Chancellor!"
Wait til Gerry Adams has to have a meeting in Enda Kenny's new office and has to look up at a picture of Michael Collins !!
Seriously, he should have got one good photo taken and released it to all the papers. Expect these photos to keep resurfacing again and again a la Brian Cowen sculling the unsettled Guinness or kicking the football at a launch.
Always liked Enda Kenny and hope he does well (for all our sakes), but have this nagging feeling that..........
FG /CnaG haven't been reelected in nigh on 90 years.
More small positives on day 2, downgrading of ministerial cars & Paddy's Day trips reduced from 22 to 8.
I really don't why understand why people are still worrying about image, surely that bullshit hasn't got us too far up to this.
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 10, 2011, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: ross4life on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 AM
So the Taoiseach's salary still bigger than Barack Obama?
I'm guessing Enda's life story won't command quite the same publishers advance that Barack's will, neither will his price on the after dinner circuit, nor his value to a company as it's new non-executive director.
The salary of 200k is probably the min it can be in order to attract half decent candidates to the role.
We shouldn't set a salary on the basis of what someone might make after they leave the job. Kenny will have a decent pension and he'll be at retirement age.
Also, I don't think the role of Taoiseach needs a big salary to attract the right person in the same way that it would be argued for say the Chief Exec of a Health Trust. It's not like Kenny would otherwise be snapped up by the private sector for a huge package.
As for the "right person", Kenny (or any Taoiseach) doesn't have to have any qualifications, just the votes of the people. It's not like we're paying out €200k and getting an economic genius.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
But Pearse was never going to be in Government ;)
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
But Pearse was never going to be in Government ;)
Not yet. And he is a TD. Anyway that is besides the point, should he not be supported in this by the government or is this tokenistic insult which you call a good beginning now a closed issue for the new Taoiseach?
How is it "besides the point"? If you know you won't have to follow through with all your populist promises then you can promise whatever you like.
Two TDs have taken voluntary cuts:
NEWLY ELECTED TD Luke "Ming" Flanagan has re-iterated his pledge to take a 50% pay cut when he takes his seat in Dáil Éireann in a few weeks. And he already has support from newly-elected FG Kerry South TD Brendan Griffin. The 28-year-old former Kerry councillor has also committed to a 50% salary cut, "in solidarity with the people of Kerry South at this time of national emergency".
Given that SF also called a pay cut, will they now follow and take a voluntary cut, even if one isn't imposed across the Board?
For the record, I don't think a TD's pay is outrageous if they're doing a good job. Averaging the salary out over the hours worked, it would probably look a lot less impressive.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:09:29 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
But Pearse was never going to be in Government ;)
Not yet. And he is a TD. Anyway that is besides the point, should he not be supported in this by the government or is this tokenistic insult which you call a good beginning now a closed issue for the new Taoiseach?
Are Sinn Fein going to propose cuts to politicians' pay every day? Is this what we can expect from Pearse and Gerry for the next term of office? It might be popular in certain quarters but it is hardly going to help much is it?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 07:12:37 PM
Two TDs have taken voluntary cuts:
NEWLY ELECTED TD Luke "Ming" Flanagan has re-iterated his pledge to take a 50% pay cut when he takes his seat in Dáil Éireann in a few weeks. And he already has support from newly-elected FG Kerry South TD Brendan Griffin. The 28-year-old former Kerry councillor has also committed to a 50% salary cut, "in solidarity with the people of Kerry South at this time of national emergency".
Given that SF also called a pay cut, will they now follow and take a voluntary cut, even if one isn't imposed across the Board?
For the record, I don't think a TD's pay is outrageous if they're doing a good job. Averaging the salary out over the hours worked, it would probably look a lot less impressive.
So Ming who the lads from the North where slagging off and a Fine Gaeler eh! More good news in the New Dáil.
Quote from: muppet on March 10, 2011, 07:35:11 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:09:29 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 07:02:54 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
But Pearse was never going to be in Government ;)
Not yet. And he is a TD. Anyway that is besides the point, should he not be supported in this by the government or is this tokenistic insult which you call a good beginning now a closed issue for the new Taoiseach?
Are Sinn Fein going to propose cuts to politicians' pay every day? Is this what we can expect from Pearse and Gerry for the next term of office? It might be popular in certain quarters but it is hardly going to help much is it?
Well its already 45% less than Bertie it appears. Also could SF please put any so called pay cuts back into the Public coffers not the Sinn Féin coffers, I'd rather Pearse had a new car than SF have a bigger warchest :D
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 06:50:26 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 10, 2011, 03:00:36 PM
Quote from: ross4life on March 10, 2011, 12:25:12 AM
So the Taoiseach's salary still bigger than Barack Obama?
I'm guessing Enda's life story won't command quite the same publishers advance that Barack's will, neither will his price on the after dinner circuit, nor his value to a company as it's new non-executive director.
The salary of 200k is probably the min it can be in order to attract half decent candidates to the role.
We shouldn't set a salary on the basis of what someone might make after they leave the job. Kenny will have a decent pension and he'll be at retirement age.
Also, I don't think the role of Taoiseach needs a big salary to attract the right person in the same way that it would be argued for say the Chief Exec of a Health Trust. It's not like Kenny would otherwise be snapped up by the private sector for a huge package.
As for the "right person", Kenny (or any Taoiseach) doesn't have to have any qualifications, just the votes of the people. It's not like we're paying out €200k and getting an economic genius.
the point i'm trying to make is that if politics doesn't pay well then people with ability tend to stick to their own profession/business. TD's salaries in the 1980's were in the order of £14-15K, if they made minister they got an extra £15K on top, that's why all the perks that are there now were put in place, so that when a minister lost his job he at least got a pension straight away to help him make ends meet. The problem was that they forgot to amend the perks when they started getting paid at decent levels.
Another consequence of crap pay for politicians is that politicians are more likely to be easily corrupted, again, the 1980's is a good example of this!!
I really wish everyone would stop this absolute rubbish about politicians being paid too much, current salary levels are probably about right, if they go any lower who in their right mind would try and enter politics. Teachers and other public servants of course, since their jobs are protected and they would probably increase their salary, for the rest of us, why other than if we'd our money made would we wish to enter public service.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
What is the salary of an assembly member? £106K or is that the sum total of expenses and salary?
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 03:15:54 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 10, 2011, 03:01:40 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Lar I was in Sligonians position due to the last administration, I already emmigrated. I have the opposite reaction to Sligonian, I feel a little cheer to see the new FG/Labour coalition being so big. I am also happy to see the decimated FF party crushed between SF, Indp. & the lefties. Also glad to see the Greens gone the way of the PD's (would take both ahead of FF though).
I don't mean to keep having a go at you mayo, but can you explain that?
While I appreciate we would have been in financial stormy water like most countries anyways, we found ourselves in this terrible mire due to the incompetence of Fianna Fáil led government. I found myself in the same position as 450,000+ others (most new to this experience) I feal as a result of Bertinomics, Brian Lenihan and Brian Cowan (amongst others).
I always found Fine Gael the best fit, but Bertie and co. almost made me a Zealot. That and I really saw Enda Kenny as the polar opposite of the corruption at the heart of the Drumcondra Don and his FF Mafioso. I have to apologise if my retoric is becoming a bit ott here, but thats the vitriol which the thought of Bertie Ahern inspires in me. I know alot of people may think its because Kenny is from Mayo that I have such positive mood towards FG, but I was a bit of a fan of Noonan before and was really happy to see him come back to the fore.
I'd agree with whoever said that it's unlikely that any of the other parties would have done things up the 2007 any differently, their various manifestos showed that they wouldn't have.
In any case, I don't blame the govt for the job losses, what could they have done to keep people in employment? In fairness to them, there are many more people working now than a decade ago, maybe if they'd left the EU and banned eastern european workers?
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 10, 2011, 09:24:57 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 10, 2011, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:20:27 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 10, 2011, 12:19:13 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 12:13:57 AM
"At its first meeting tonight, the Government has agreed to cut its own pay.
The Taoiseach's pay will be cut from €214,187 to €200,000.
Other rates will be reduced pro rata - the Tánaiste from €197,486 to €184,405; Ministers from €181,283 to €169,275; and Ministers of State from €139,266 to €130,042."
http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html (http://www.politics.ie/oireachtas/155504-1st-cabinet-meeting-1st-decision-ministerial-pay-cut-announced.html)
You see i find the above disappoiting tbh, could of went alot further imo, im sure our taoiseach could live on 150,000- a yr. Some of those deductions are pittance tbf..
I agree somewhat Sligonian, but its a good start. Hopefully it will be the first of many positive changes.
Extremely tokenistic cuts. Pearse Doherty had said he would propose a 40% ministerial pay cut and a 20% pay cut for TDs. FG, FF and Labour each have said they would not support this.
What is the salary of an assembly member? £106K or is that the sum total of expenses and salary?
Nowhere near. Salary is around £45k as far as I know.
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 10:26:45 PM
What is the salary of an assembly member? £106K or is that the sum total of expenses and salary?
Nowhere near. Salary is around £45k as far as I know.
[/quote]
Yeah, just found that out, although they seem to have at least the same again in terms of expenses (office running that sort of thing, normally family or friends?).
I'm wondering how all these lads who make the selfless gestures of giving half their salaries to the party etc take care of their tax requirements? For example Pearse Doherty is allotted a salary of €35,500 from his actual salary of €90,000 (odd).
For this to work properly he's have to work out the tax on a salary of 35K, then leave himself with that net amount and pay the excess of his net pay cheque over to the party (except that we hear it's not really to the party, because it's sorta paid to him to cover expenses in his own consitituency ;)). Even so, it's a very complicated and tax inefficent system, what about the pension rights that a TD builds up, is there an imputed value on these deducted too? Would SF come after a widow/er if (s)he didn't pay over the due share after the death of he(r) partner who had been a SF TD? I think there's a whiff of populism about these auld average industrial wage claims.
Nobody (apart from SF) is really impressed by the 'average industrial wage' claims because they still cost us the full wage.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/td-salaries-slashed-by-euro17000-2042039.html
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 11:02:01 PM
Nobody (apart from SF) is I'm not really impressed by the 'average industrial wage' claims because they still cost us the full wage I just plain don't like any SF ideas because they are SF ideas and I don't like SF.
fixed that
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 11:02:01 PM
Nobody (apart from SF) is I'm not really impressed by the 'average industrial wage' claims because they still cost us the full wage I just plain don't like any SF ideas because they are SF ideas and I don't like SF.
fixed that
Sorry Nally, its been my experience when this has ever come up that nobody is impressed, the same view arises, they are still collecting the money. I would love a job where I got to give the same again to my favourate organisations, my local GAA Club would love me. Bogball makes a good point about the tax.
Quote from: Minder on March 10, 2011, 07:11:47 PM
How is it "besides the point"? If you know you won't have to follow through with all your populist promises then you can promise whatever you like.
Minder, he didn't say it was something SF would do if elected to government, he said it was a motion HE would propose to the Dáil if HE was elected as a TD. So hardly populist promises.
Now would any of the SF haters or FG lovers see past their party loyalties and maybe accept that he is right to propose this and that the other parties are showing their true colours by opposing him? I can't help but feel that had Ming or some of the United Left lads announced this proposal, that some of ye lads would be lauding him as having principle and leading by example, but ye just can't seem to say the same of a shinner.
Certain begrudgers here seem to be content to take issue with the idea that SF reps only take half their salary as the other half goes to the party and hence costs the taxpayer the same. Is concern with how much comes from public taxes
really the problem with you? If it was, would you not be far more concerned with how much the TD's get from the public purse and not how each party organises such funds? If all the other parties supported Doherty's proposal, would there not then be less cash coming from the public purse? Would your criticism not be better directed at those who are opposing him in favour of todays pathetic tokenistic pay cuts or is your criticism of SF's "half to the party" scheme merely being used out of convenience to ignore the merits of Doherty's proposals?
Mayo: For one minute, try to see past your FG loyalties - you (rightly) criticised FF for their behaviour, but you are currently emigrated from our shores and you need a fresh change in Irish politics. You need people to lead by example. Can you
HONESTLY say that had FF (somehow) won the election and went on to refuse to accept a proposal for 40% ministerial pay cuts and 20% TD pay cuts, but rather introduced the level of "pay cuts" which were announced today, that you would still have said it was "a good beginning", or would you, like me, regard it as an insulting and pathetic token gesture, in the current economic climate?
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 11:02:01 PM
Nobody (apart from SF) is I'm not really impressed by the 'average industrial wage' claims because they still cost us the full wage I just plain don't like any SF ideas because they are SF ideas and I don't like SF.
fixed that
That might have worked if it hadn't been 'fixed' by a SF loyalist like yourself. Can you point me to all of the people outside the SF circle who are impressed?
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 12:40:50 AM
Now would any of the SF haters or FG lovers see past their party loyalties and maybe accept that he is right to propose this and that the other parties are showing their true colours by opposing him? I can't help but feel that had Ming or some of the United Left lads announced this proposal, that some of ye lads would be lauding him as having principle and leading by example, but ye just can't seem to say the same of a shinner.
Certain begrudgers here seem to be content to take issue with the idea that SF reps only take half their salary as the other half goes to the party and hence costs the taxpayer the same. Is concern with how much comes from public taxes really the problem with you? If it was, would you not be far more concerned with how much the TD's get from the public purse and not how each party organises such funds? If all the other parties supported Doherty's proposal, would there not then be less cash coming from the public purse? Would your criticism not be better directed at those who are opposing him in favour of todays pathetic tokenistic pay cuts or is your criticism of SF's "half to the party" scheme merely being used out of convenience to ignore the merits of Doherty's proposals?
Mayo: For one minute, try to see past your FG loyalties - you (rightly) criticised FF for their behaviour, but you are currently emigrated from our shores and you need a fresh change in Irish politics. You need people to lead by example. Can you HONESTLY say that had FF (somehow) won the election and went on to refuse to accept a proposal for 40% ministerial pay cuts and 20% TD pay cuts, but rather introduced the level of "pay cuts" which were announced today, that you would still have said it was "a good beginning", or would you, like me, regard it as an insulting and pathetic token gesture, in the current economic climate?
I've already said that I don't think the TDs' basic salary is outrageous. Is it much more than a decent solicitor or accountant might earn? A teacher can earn €60k.
Also, none of the other parties are going back on any election pledges as far as I recall. Doherty set out this proposal on the TV before the election and the reaction (or lack of) from the other panelists was clear, but people still went ahead and voted for the current government parties.
What Doherty (and the rest of SF) could do, is take a cut voluntarily, like Ming and Griffin. Why wait for everyone else? If they think it's what people want to hear, then they're surely onto a winner.
Skip to 49:30 of this video to hear Paul Krugman's opinion on the ghange of government.
http://www.livestream.com/nytimes/video?clipId=pla_8a6bac15-edf8-472c-ad7c-29c06daf89f9&utm_source=lslibrary&utm_medium=ui-thumb
If someone told you they were giving half their wages to their cult, you'd start looking for exits and slowly back away. I don't see how a political party is any different
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:05:52 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 11:02:01 PM
Nobody (apart from SF) is I'm not really impressed by the 'average industrial wage' claims because they still cost us the full wage I just plain don't like any SF ideas because they are SF ideas and I don't like SF.
fixed that
That might have worked if it hadn't been 'fixed' by a SF loyalist like yourself. Can you point me to all of the people outside the SF circle who are impressed?
Hardstation beat me to it. And besides, I wasn't even talking about SF's policy for taking half the industrial wage so asking me who is impressed by a point I didn't even make is clutching at straws.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 08:53:35 AM
Hardstation beat me to it. And besides, I wasn't even talking about SF's policy for taking half the industrial wage so asking me who is impressed by a point I didn't even make is clutching at straws.
I didn't realise they were now taking HALF the industrial wage!
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:18:40 AM
I've already said that I don't think the TDs' basic salary is outrageous. Is it much more than a decent solicitor or accountant might earn? A teacher can earn €60k.
And he was was wrong to press the other parties to back a 40% pay cut for ministers too then? All the other parties were right to oppose him, and yesterdays cuts were just as impressive?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:18:40 AM
Also, none of the other parties are going back on any election pledges as far as I recall. Doherty set out this proposal on the TV before the election and the reaction (or lack of) from the other panelists was clear, but people still went ahead and voted for the current government parties.
Jaysus Maguire, do you honestly think Doherty thought he would sweep SF into government by announcing his intention? I realise you detest SF with every inch of your being but that's a bit of a non-point in terms of relevance to the area of discussion.
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:18:40 AM
What Doherty (and the rest of SF) could do, is take a cut voluntarily, like Ming and Griffin. Why wait for everyone else? If they think it's what people want to hear, then they're surely onto a winner.
Personally, I would love to see them do that. But if you do to, would you not agree then that Doherty's proposals were deserving of backing, as it would ensure EVERYONE would have to accept a substantial paycut?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 08:53:35 AM
Hardstation beat me to it. And besides, I wasn't even talking about SF's policy for taking half the industrial wage so asking me who is impressed by a point I didn't even make is clutching at straws.
I didn't realise they were now taking HALF the industrial wage!
Pointing out a typo?? GOOD COMEBACK!!!!! :o
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 10, 2011, 01:47:40 PM
Lar I was in Sligonians position due to the last administration, I already emmigrated. I have the opposite reaction to Sligonian, I feel a little cheer to see the new FG/Labour coalition being so big. I am also happy to see the decimated FF party crushed between SF, Indp. & the lefties. Also glad to see the Greens gone the way of the PD's (would take both ahead of FF though).
I'm sorry to hear that you were forced to emigrate like thousands of others who had to get up and go thanks to the incompetence and short-sightedness of the last Government.
It is quite possible that the incoming one won't be the answer to our prayers either but anything is better that the one we have had to endure till now. At least one positive message went out from the results of the recent election and it is that the last remnants of Civil War politics are dead and gone.
Enda & Co. had better shape up or else...
I've no doubt that he is a man of his word and is very serious about his commitments to the Irish people but I'm none too sure about his ability to carry them out.
I've known him since our days as trainee teachers in St Pat's, Drumcondra and while the general consensus of his fellow students was that while he was a likeable and sociable chap, he'd never be taken for the brightest or most dynamic member of the group.
No doubt he means well but we need more than a nice guy at the helm right now. At any rate, he and his cabinet colleagues should be an improvement on what has gone before.
What baoithe posted (Reply #69) needs to be kept in mind at all times.
FG and Labour were just as reckless as FF back in the days of the Celtic Tiger and their policies were designed to overheat the economy same as those of Ahern and McCreevy.
I recall both Kenny and Mickey Noonan in particular were most vociferous in promising to scrap stamp duty on new houses- if elected and I recall Pat Rabbitte from Labour being equally bullish on this matter also. The gas thing was that Charlie McCreevy was most reluctant to match their promises until forced to do so by Ahern. FF didn't have a monopoly on greed and shortsightedness back then.
One could well speculate that if Kenny has won a handful of extra seats in the 2007 election, Labour and FG would be the ones in deep doodoo now and FF and the Greens would be the ones smelling of roses!
That's idle speculation of course but I'm stating it because I'm not altogether confident that Enda and his crowd have what it takes to bring a speedy end to our troubles. They will certainly outperform the last shower and that alone is reason to welcome the change of government.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 09:10:18 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 09:00:29 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 08:53:35 AM
Hardstation beat me to it. And besides, I wasn't even talking about SF's policy for taking half the industrial wage so asking me who is impressed by a point I didn't even make is clutching at straws.
I didn't realise they were now taking HALF the industrial wage!
Pointing out a typo?? GOOD COMEBACK!!!!! :o
Well it was a pretty fundamental typo. But my comment was tongue-in-cheek.
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 09:07:48 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:18:40 AM
I've already said that I don't think the TDs' basic salary is outrageous. Is it much more than a decent solicitor or accountant might earn? A teacher can earn €60k.
And he was was wrong to press the other parties to back a 40% pay cut for ministers too then? All the other parties were right to oppose him, and yesterdays cuts were just as impressive?
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:18:40 AM
Also, none of the other parties are going back on any election pledges as far as I recall. Doherty set out this proposal on the TV before the election and the reaction (or lack of) from the other panelists was clear, but people still went ahead and voted for the current government parties.
Jaysus Maguire, do you honestly think Doherty thought he would sweep SF into government by announcing his intention? I realise you detest SF with every inch of your being but that's a bit of a non-point in terms of relevance to the area of discussion.
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:18:40 AM
What Doherty (and the rest of SF) could do, is take a cut voluntarily, like Ming and Griffin. Why wait for everyone else? If they think it's what people want to hear, then they're surely onto a winner.
Personally, I would love to see them do that. But if you do to, would you not agree then that Doherty's proposals were deserving of backing, as it would ensure EVERYONE would have to accept a substantial paycut?
I just don't think that salaries should be set on the basis of popular rhetoric. I think a salary should be commensurate with the job.
In relation to the 'average minimum wage', I think that TDs / Ministers probably have a tougher job than many who earn the minimum wage - a politician will generally work massive hours and be constantly on-call. They will also have significant responsibility and will be subject to massive scrutiny. Having said that, if SF decide to pay themselves that, then fair enough. But I won't feel the need to be impressed.
Any increases or decreases should be set by an independent body as happens elsewhere and should be made on an objective basis rather than as some great gesture.
If Doherty / SF decide to take the cut voluntarily (and by that, i'm talking about what they draw down (like Ming and Griffin), not what they take home personally), then fair play to them. But I don't expect it of them and don't think it should be forced on all politicians unless someone objectively assesses the salaries and deems them to be excessive.
For the record, I wouldn't say I detest SF with every inch of my being - I have a lot more important things to worry about. Maybe I'm just as opposed to them and their policies as you are 'pro' them.
Quote from: hardstation on March 11, 2011, 08:26:01 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 11, 2011, 08:05:52 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on March 11, 2011, 12:02:31 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on March 10, 2011, 11:02:01 PM
Nobody (apart from SF) is I'm not really impressed by the 'average industrial wage' claims because they still cost us the full wage I just plain don't like any SF ideas because they are SF ideas and I don't like SF.
fixed that
That might have worked if it hadn't been 'fixed' by a SF loyalist like yourself. Can you point me to all of the people outside the SF circle who are impressed?
Here's one
Ok, you found one - I'll amend my comment -
some might be impressed; many won't.
Well looks like the new Taoiseach was arguing with Sarkozy.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-and-sarkozy-in-clash-over-corporation-tax-2576957.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/taoiseach-and-sarkozy-in-clash-over-corporation-tax-2576957.html)
Taoiseach and Sarkozy in clash over corporation taxSaturday March 12 2011
TAOISEACH Enda Kenny clashed with French President Nicolas Sarkozy last night in a "Gallic spat" over Ireland's corporation tax as Europe's heavy-hitters named their price for a bailout deal.
Emerging from his first EU summit, Mr Kenny was confident of securing a 1pc reduction in the interest rate on the bailout at the end of the month.
The Taoiseach said there was acceptance of the principle made by Ireland that a cut in the bailout on the interest rate was necessary without any agreement on a deal.
BLOW-UP
But Mr Sarkozy and German Chancellor Angela Merkel ganged up on Mr Kenny, demanding a change to our corporation tax system in return for bringing down the interest rate.
Attending his first EU summit, Mr Kenny had a row with Mr Sarkozy after the French leader described Ireland's corporation tax regime as "harmful".
Mr Kenny said he had a "good, vigorous and vibrant" discussion with Mr Sarkozy.
"I'm not sure whether you would call it a Gallic spat or not but obviously the French President has very clear views about the corporation tax rate for quite some time -- and then, so have I," he said.
Mr Kenny refused to reduce the corporation tax rate saying it was an issue he "could not comtemplate". He also said a common corporation tax base across the EU "was harmonisation of the tax rates by the back door and this would be detrimental to Ireland and to Europe".
Mr Kenny said he was willing to engage in negotiation on what he described as the "language about tax policy" contained in the bailout agreement.
The European Commission is due to publish proposals next week on a common set of rules for the collection of corporation tax across Europe.
Finance Minister Michael Noonan will meet with European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet on Monday and Mr Kenny will also have a meeting with him before the end of the month.
Mr Sarkozy and Ms Merkel also held a private meeting with Mr Kenny to put pressure on the Taoiseach over the corporation tax regime.
European Council President Herman Van Rompuy is also believed to have been involved in the discussion on the margins of the EU summit.
The European heavy-hitters are prepared to ease the burden of Ireland's bailout terms -- but only if the government compromised on the corporate tax base.
PRESSURE
Germany and France want to prevent companies from paying a lower rate of corporation tax in Ireland, without having a full operation in this country.
Those two countries are offering to be flexible on the EU-IMF package if there is a concession given on corporation tax.
Mr Kenny is insisting he won't give anything away on the Irish corporation tax -- neither the rate nor the base.
EArlier Mr Kenny got a round of applause from EU leaders as he attended his first summit last night but he was still told he will have to give something in return for deal on Ireland's bailout.
Mr Kenny asked for a reduction in the bailout interest rate when the crisis in the eurozone was discussed by the leaders of the 17 countries using the currency as Portugal edged closer to also requiring a rescue package.
The Taoiseach also spoke with US President Barack Obama, who congratulated him on his election and said he looked forward to meeting him next week for the St Patrick's Day visit to the White House. During an eight-minute telephone conversation, Mr Kenny recalled how he was in Denver, Colorado when Mr Obama was selected as the Democratic Party candidate for the US Presidency.
- Fionnan Sheahan Political Editor in Brussels
surely we can give up some of our corp tax rate, but we can manipulate what is deductible so as to make the change in tax relatively unchanged for the corporation? For example we could make out new CT rate 15%, but we make entertainment expenses deductible or give double relief for R&D, i'm only throwing this out there without much thought, but I know from personal experience that other EU countries operate schemes like this (although the schemes I encountered brought a seemingly small 2% tax up to about an effective 15% rate).
If we came up with a solution like that, then Sarkozy/Merkel could go home and show their electorate just how great they are at negotiating and their public would be happy. It's my belief that Sarko and Angela really don't care about our CT rate, but their electorate do, the reality is that in monetary terms it would make little difference to the larger EU countries if all of our multinationals relocated to them and paid their taxes there (of course it would make a big difference to us, particularly in employment and ancillary industries). But as always, it's an image thing, other europeans perceive that we are stealing their jobs and revenues and blowing it all on our overpaid public sector and champagne and that now, to really fcuk them off, they're going to have to bail us out too. If we give a little on the CT, we can show that really we're nice europeans!
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 12, 2011, 02:13:55 PM
surely we can give up some of our corp tax rate, but we can manipulate what is deductible so as to make the change in tax relatively unchanged for the corporation? For example we could make out new CT rate 15%, but we make entertainment expenses deductible or give double relief for R&D, i'm only throwing this out there without much thought, but I know from personal experience that other EU countries operate schemes like this (although the schemes I encountered brought a seemingly small 2% tax up to about an effective 15% rate).
If we came up with a solution like that, then Sarkozy/Merkel could go home and show their electorate just how great they are at negotiating and their public would be happy. It's my belief that Sarko and Angela really don't care about our CT rate, but their electorate do, the reality is that in monetary terms it would make little difference to the larger EU countries if all of our multinationals relocated to them and paid their taxes there (of course it would make a big difference to us, particularly in employment and ancillary industries). But as always, it's an image thing, other europeans perceive that we are stealing their jobs and revenues and blowing it all on our overpaid public sector and champagne and that now, to really fcuk them off, they're going to have to bail us out too. If we give a little on the CT, we can show that really we're nice europeans!
The EU will change the whole deal but not quite yet.
1) Looking from the EU position: They know Ireland cannot pay back the debt, regardless of the rate. If nothing changes a disorderly default is inevitable which would be catastrophic for the PIIGS and disastrous for the Eurozone. That won't happen.
2) Looking from our Government's position: They know the above and are playing hardball publicly but privately they know that a unilateral default would add another generation to the scrapheap to the one already there. They have leverage in the way that a jumper has while standing at the edge of the building. As soon as they either jump or step away, it is over.
I'm guessing both sides will agree to a disorderly default but not until:
* Public expenditure is greatly reduced here;
* All private bondholders are off the stage first (this is the hardest to stomach personally);
* Taxes will have to be kept down to allow growth otherwise we will be having more orderly default;
* There may be some tokenism on Corporate Tax possibly as outlined above;
Some commentators in the papers today are talking about an April/May budget. If they do all of the above in that timescale it will be one hell of a budget. But after that the EU would write off some of the debt, spreading the taxpayer burden across the EU rather than just on us. Those of us with mortgages might see some relief (not because we deserve it but that the economy might grow its way to recovery) but that would be a long shot .
The alternative I hope doesn't happen is that we
'achieve' a rate cut, think that is great and wait a bit more. Yes it will be improving on the mess created by Lenihan/Cowen/Ahern/Harney etc but it will achieve nothing other than kicking the can a little further down the road.
An Taoiseach announces the removal of all Ex-Taoiseach & Ex-President state cars and Garda drivers. He also announced that only the Taoiseach, Tánaiste & President to have state cars or Garda drivers, all other ministers must use their own car and pay for their own drivers.
QuoteAn Taoiseach announces the removal of all Ex-Taoiseach & Ex-President state cars and Garda drivers. He also announced that only the Taoiseach, Tánaiste & President to have state cars or Garda drivers, all other ministers must use their own car and pay for their own drivers.
Fair play for this. It doesn't save all that much, but it iwill make a lot of people, including me, that little bit more willing to tolerate austerity in our own situations.
If the FF gob***** had the sense to do this kind of thing in 2008 we'd be in a different place now.
I'm normally a political neutral but fair play to Enda so far:
Cutting Ministers pay
Standing firm on corporate tax rate
Slashing state cars for ministers and ex taoisigh etc (Does this mean that Berties S class Benz is gone?)
Quote from: comethekingdom on March 15, 2011, 09:25:08 PM
I'm normally a political neutral but fair play to Enda so far:
Cutting Ministers pay
Standing firm on corporate tax rate
Slashing state cars for ministers and ex taoisigh etc (Does this mean that Berties S class Benz is gone?)
Pretty sure, thats a yes, he loses his driver too. He still doesn't have a driving licence (then again he didn't have a bank account either ;) )
Seems this will free up 54 Gardaí for other duties.
Quote from: muppet on March 13, 2011, 04:50:56 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 12, 2011, 02:13:55 PM
surely we can give up some of our corp tax rate, but we can manipulate what is deductible so as to make the change in tax relatively unchanged for the corporation? For example we could make out new CT rate 15%, but we make entertainment expenses deductible or give double relief for R&D, i'm only throwing this out there without much thought, but I know from personal experience that other EU countries operate schemes like this (although the schemes I encountered brought a seemingly small 2% tax up to about an effective 15% rate).
If we came up with a solution like that, then Sarkozy/Merkel could go home and show their electorate just how great they are at negotiating and their public would be happy. It's my belief that Sarko and Angela really don't care about our CT rate, but their electorate do, the reality is that in monetary terms it would make little difference to the larger EU countries if all of our multinationals relocated to them and paid their taxes there (of course it would make a big difference to us, particularly in employment and ancillary industries). But as always, it's an image thing, other europeans perceive that we are stealing their jobs and revenues and blowing it all on our overpaid public sector and champagne and that now, to really fcuk them off, they're going to have to bail us out too. If we give a little on the CT, we can show that really we're nice europeans!
The EU will change the whole deal but not quite yet.
1) Looking from the EU position: They know Ireland cannot pay back the debt, regardless of the rate. If nothing changes a disorderly default is inevitable which would be catastrophic for the PIIGS and disastrous for the Eurozone. That won't happen.
2) Looking from our Government's position: They know the above and are playing hardball publicly but privately they know that a unilateral default would add another generation to the scrapheap to the one already there. They have leverage in the way that a jumper has while standing at the edge of the building. As soon as they either jump or step away, it is over.
I'm guessing both sides will agree to a disorderly default but not until:
* Public expenditure is greatly reduced here;
* All private bondholders are off the stage first (this is the hardest to stomach personally);
* Taxes will have to be kept down to allow growth otherwise we will be having more orderly default;
* There may be some tokenism on Corporate Tax possibly as outlined above;
Some commentators in the papers today are talking about an April/May budget. If they do all of the above in that timescale it will be one hell of a budget. But after that the EU would write off some of the debt, spreading the taxpayer burden across the EU rather than just on us. Those of us with mortgages might see some relief (not because we deserve it but that the economy might grow its way to recovery) but that would be a long shot .
The alternative I hope doesn't happen is that we 'achieve' a rate cut, think that is great and wait a bit more. Yes it will be improving on the mess created by Lenihan/Cowen/Ahern/Harney etc but it will achieve nothing other than kicking the can a little further down the road.
You mean an orderly default?
You also say that you dont think both sides will agree to such a default until certain condictions are met:
Public expenditure is greatly reduced: this really is not an issue. The new government has signed up (more or less) to the austerity programme. Also, the deficit in terms of public spending is not the problem here and it is not the reason the markets believe we will default. The problem is (as karl whelan says) the banking crisis and the uncertainty as to the extent of same. Notwithstanding this if a co-ordinated European Zone action plan was to be delayed until our austerity plan is fully implemented we'd be talking about years. I'm assuming you mean evidence of reduction in public expenditure. In any event, the point remains that public expenditure is not a bone of contention in real terms.
Private bondholders are off the stage: this will be the focus of, and part of, any solution put forward by Europe. It is part of the reason the ECB and the Germans and French have stood paralysed tover the last two years.
Taxes will have to be kept down to allow growth: I dont think this is a given as so many factors feed into what creates growth. Ultimately I dont see how keeping taxes down has any bearing on agreement with Europe as to a resolution. In fact the intent of a resolution will be to sort the banking crisis which will in turn allow the banks to be sold off and operate 'normally'. In that context, business lending should resume and thereby creating an environment for growth - or at least one factor required to engender growth.
Tokenism on Corporate Tax: This is political posturing by Sarkozy in advance of upcoming elections and nothing more. Ditto the germans (Merkels junior partners). As Bogball says, surely we can give something. It depends on your negotiating policy but in my view to give in on this would erode some of the mandate of the new government. It's one of the things Enda has to back him up in those meetings i.e. the backing of the IRish people on this issue. Bogball says, it would create an impression in Europe that we are nice Europeans. My answer to that is we are nice Europeans. And we were nice Europeans when the Irish people stopped the meltdown of Anglo (by taking on the burden thereof) which could have caused the collapse of the Eurozone. We are partly to blame for the extent of the Anglo (and other banks) problem but only partly (John Bruton is right) but we as a people have taken on a huge burden in the interest of saving Europe and, might I add, at the behest of the ECB. I have no sympathy for the Germans and French in this. They waited and waited until it became politically difficult to act in the face of elections. The ECB, on the other hand, has been shown to have serious competency problems.
I think you're right in the form of resolution i.e. sharing the burden across the EU. I'd also agree that a cut in the interest rate of the EU/IMF bailout will have no appreciable effect (without the aforementioned resolution) and is mere symbolism.
I'd also like to take you up on the comment that the last administration got us into this mess. I think this is misinformed or disingenuous. As I've stated above, it was the policy of all parties to perpetuate the boom. FG wanted to reduce income tax rates while doubling the relief on mortgages. LAbour wanted to flood the housing market with 50,000 homes. All wanted to keep the whole shebang going at full pace. Neither was there any discourse on regulation (where was the ECB also??). I agree that the last government was pathetic in the face of the crisis, apart from Lenihan (even though he didn't always make the right decisions). Cowen didn't seem to have any interest with his solution appearing to be "belligerence will get us through". The new government has been a breath of fresh air in comparison to the lethargy of the last government which had become too cosy in office and consequently inept in the face of crisis. More crucially, this new government has the backing of people with regard to some of the core issues above. Something that the last government didnt have when it sat down to meetings in Europe. And the Europeans knew it.
I don't like contributing to these threads as it can lead to a circular conversation. However, my final point is in relation to the symbolism of ministers not using state cars etc. Much was made last week of Enda walking to work in the Dail. Also the fact that ministers are losing state cars. I have no time for token symbolism. I want substance and I want to be convinced that the people appointed to run our country are comepetent to do so. I find it actually insulting that they think I'd be impressed by this. This is a PR exercise and nothing else. I cant see Enda ever walking to work again (from farmleigh!!) and if he does I'll be asking why he wasn't in the back of his car reading his next brief.
I did mean orderly.
I agree with most of that except your argument that any party would have got us into this mess.
Regarding the last administration, the Executive in charge are the only ones with all the facts. Manifestos (at least before this election) are meaningless vote getters and had little connection to reality. Look at FF in 2002, as soon as they were in office they reversed their elections promises and tightened the belt, ironically this was the last example of them making any sensible decisions. The electorate punished them in the following local elections and McCreevy was dispatched to Europe for his efforts.
Take the bank guarantee. Many people believe that the Government was not given accurate figures by the banks. This is almost certainly true but I believe the Government delivered a further watered-down version of the facts to the Dáil. If you accept this how then can any opposition party be blamed for backing the guarantee based on the inaccurate information at hand?
Last point on this, the Financial Regulator was an office created upon entry into the Euro on the insistence of Mary Harney. McCreevy, the Minister for Finance at the time, wanted the Central Bank to continue to operate as regulator. Harney won unfortunately. The CB bank is now little more than a branch of the ECB which sets our monetary policy while the regulator looks after our financial sector. Aside from the waste of money having two such qangos (Harney made circa 350 appointments to qangos in her day) was our financial crisis amplified by having two such stools to fall between?
The incumbents do have more details in advance of an general election but the pretenders have their policies proofed by the Dept of Finanace. That together with all other financial data and reports available publicly makes the blind-spot on the part of all parties concerned (including the ESRI) all the more remarkable. As has often been stated, ours was a "plain vanilla property bubble" so it should have been spotted by all and sundry. Maybe some of the blindness can be attributed to too much faith been placed on the contribution of our exports to the state coffers. I cannot prove otherwise to you today but any objective analysis would find that the outcome would be the same as today. I accept that public spending would not be an issue and would have been prudent under a FG/Labour coalition but the banking issue would remain and that is, as I say, the reason we are in this crisis.
I didnt say that I agreed with the guarantee or that I blamed the opposition. The guarantee was put in place after the beginning of the crisis, the handling of which by the FF government I clearly said was inept. My point was that we would have been in a crisis regardless of who was in power up to the point that it occurred. Therefore, whether facts presented to the Dail were diluted is largely irrelevant. But what I will say is that, first of all, we dont know if this is the case. Secondly, we can see from an analysis of the decisions taken by the government for the two years up to the IMF deal, that market perception was at the forefront of their minds. I dont think this was the correct approach as the markets decided themselves based on the black hole of figures available that they didnt believe the Irish banks could resolve themselves. They then shut us out. We should also bear in mind something that was pointed out to me yesterday; the banking crisis is evolving by the day and difficult to measure but of course stress tests should be answer. Unfortunately, stress tests are no longer considered reliable. So we are left with a EU wide burden sharing mechanism to save the entire currency.
In relation to regulation, it wouldnt have mattered a hoot if there was one regulator or five regulators. The fundamental problem of regulation in the western world was the philosophy of light-touch regulation. And what we had in this country and UK and US and Europe was a regulatory capture. Its a doomed philosophy. However we must also remember, as I have said, the ECB failed in its duty of oversight of the banking infrastructure of the Eurozone. Thats another day's argument.
I dont see what quangos have got to do with this. In fact nothing. Yes they are a waste of money and are often a manifestation of cronyism but they did nto bring the country down. As long as people (humans) are running countries you will have an element of cronyism and as long as you have a country with our small population doing substantial business like we do (and we do!), then the movers and shakers will always 'know' the politicians. Its a fact of life in an economy of this type. Its how you regulate it is what is important. Dail committees with teeth are what is important in that regard bearing in mind we need to be cognisant of the separation of powers.
On the Guarantee this is my current understanding of what happened:
For the six months prior to the Guarantee the CB/ECB provided anything up to €50 Billion in emergency lending to the banks, and in particular Anglo, to deal with what it believed was a liquidity problem. My understanding is that this started around the time Bear Sterns was sold to JP Morgan and the markets started shorting Anglo and others. This went on during Cowen's golf game and dinner right up to the night of the Guarantee.
It appears now that it may have dawned on some people that night that is was no longer a liquidity issue but a solvency one (I am choosing my words carefully). The problem is that Lenihan categorically told the Dáil (presumably as informed by his department) that the Bank Guarantee was to resolve a liquidity issue. The opposition, media and the rest of us were told that the Guarantee would most likely never be called in ("cheapest bailout") on this basis. If however it was suspected that some or all of the banks were actually insolvent then the Guarantee would have most likely been viewed as lunacy, which we now know it was.
I absolutely agree that the way the crisis was dealt with was inept. However, that was not the point I was arguing when I decided to contribute to this thread. See how these arguments can become circular!?
I think you are arguing that because the government knew six months before the date of the guarantee that Anglo was in trouble that they could have in some way avoided the turn of events thereafter. I'm not so sure but then I cannot definitively argue either way. I thnk world events evolved and that they were left with no alternative. The extent of the guarantee is a different matter. I also think they consistently consulted with Europe throughout the process. Due diligence had not been carried out on the likes of AIB and BoI or Anglo as far as I know so nobody knew the extent of their troubles. The banks were economical with the truth until they had to come begging and even then kept their cards close to their chest. Actually I want to stop here because I think we're going to end up arguing about NAMA next. I accept the extent of the guarantee was foolish but I'm not sure that if we were put in the same position that we wouldn't do it again. As I say it was the extent. But then Europe was sanctioning all of this.
I have work to do so to finish off, I cannot definitely argue with you re the guarantee but I stand by my point on the management of the Celtic Tiger. We would still have had the same crisis with the same extent of toxic loans on the banks' balance sheets no matter what party had been in power. In my view no objective analysis can conclude otherwise.
All I'll say is that Anglo and/or INBS might have been left behind by another administration.
Well its intriguing to imagine circumstances if that could have been done before Lehman's collapsed. I think the timelines might have been too tight to manage it however.
Quote from: baoithe on March 16, 2011, 11:59:37 AM
Well its intriguing to imagine circumstances if that could have been done before Lehman's collapsed. I think the timelines might have been too tight to manage it however.
Jaysus you had me going there.
Northern Rock and Bear Sterns.
You mean that hypothetically Enda would have said 'right let them go to the wall' and anyone that's burned is burned? What other factors would he have had to consider?
Didnt the brits at some stage guarantee deposits of senior and unsecured debt of Northern Rock?? You'll know more about that than me.
Quote from: baoithe on March 16, 2011, 12:23:27 PM
You mean that hypothetically Enda would have said 'right let them go to the wall' and anyone that's burned is burned? What other factors would he have had to consider?
Didnt the brits at some stage guarantee deposits of senior and unsecured debt of Northern Rock?? You'll know more about that than me.
I mean that the timeline started with Northern Rock, became more critical around Paddy's Day 2008 with Bear Sterns. The Lehmans argument sounds like the party line and doesn't stand up.
You said earlier that the ECB are as much to blame as anyone and I agree with this. Their 'no bank left behind' policy is one of the reasons we are screwed. The other is that we implemented it without the ECB accepting any liability for this crazy policy.
You are trying to lead me into a
burn the bondholders rant with your question 'what other factors...' question.
Before the Guarantee the bondholders were responsible for their own risk. That is the way it is supposed to work and when a bank they bought bonds from went bankrupt they would have expected losses, just like the shareholders. Yes there would have been fallout not least because these bondholders included AIB, BOI etc which would have compounded their (and our) problems but as we bailed them out anyway it wouldnt have mattered.
The Danes have recently let a private bank go to the wall (not a peep from the ECB) and yet their 10 year bonds are at <3.5%. Why couldn't we have done that with Anglo (and others)?
Sorry muppet I thought you meant let Anglo go like Northern Rock.
I'm not suggesting Lehmans caused the crisis at all - what I'm saying is that once Lehman's happened there is no way Europe would have let us cut Anglo loose as it had the potential to be Europe's lehmans. As you say, we agree on ECB policy. If Anglo could have been liquidated prior to Lehmans then things may have been different but that would have been impossible in the time period from when Anglos problems became apparent to government- hence what I mean by tight timelines.
And by other factors I mean more than burn bondholders. I mean, amongst other factors, they would have had to consider deposits and a run on other banks regarding same. People forget that banks rely on deposits to actually work and lend on a day to day basis. As far as I can see, AIB are fecked in this regard.
Cant believe I got sucked into this aspect of the argument.
Maybe this speech needs to be linked on another thread but in any event its worth a read:
http://www.financialregulator.ie/press-area/speeches/Pages/Address%20by%20Patrick%20Honohan,%20Governor%20of%20the%20Central%20Bank%20of%20Ireland%20at%20the%20%20ICMBS,%20Geneva.aspx
Honahan says what you said about Anglo being Europe's Lehmans.
It is worth pointing out that:
a) The States banking crisis appears to have ended a long time ago, Paulson's plan seems to have worked;
b) The ECB (which 2.5 years later still has no EU-wide plan) have left the Irish taxpayer to pick up the entire tab for saving Europe from Anglo turning into its Lehmans:
http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/03/taoiseachs-doorstep-after-business-leaders-lunch/?cat=3 (http://www.merrionstreet.ie/index.php/2011/03/taoiseachs-doorstep-after-business-leaders-lunch/?cat=3)
http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/156140-excellent-depth-interview-enda-kenny-us-telly.html (http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/156140-excellent-depth-interview-enda-kenny-us-telly.html)
Are you enda kennys PR guru mghu?
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 19, 2011, 12:36:03 AM
Are you enda kennys PR guru mghu?
Ha ha no Sligonian, I would be the last person someone would want for their PR. I just think so far the Taoiseach is disproving alot of the rubbish that was wrote about him over the years.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2011, 01:47:28 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 19, 2011, 12:36:03 AM
Are you enda kennys PR guru mghu?
Ha ha no Sligonian, I would be the last person someone would want for their PR. I just think so far the Taoiseach is disproving alot of the rubbish that was wrote about him over the years.
Its a pity then that he didn't hold till the promise he made and cut the junior ministries to 13, all the money he has saved from the headline grabbing cuts will only cover the running of the two ministries. But then again he could hardly not have given a job to the embarrassment from his own constituency.
Quote from: oakleafgael on March 19, 2011, 08:24:57 AM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 19, 2011, 01:47:28 AM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 19, 2011, 12:36:03 AM
Are you enda kennys PR guru mghu?
Ha ha no Sligonian, I would be the last person someone would want for their PR. I just think so far the Taoiseach is disproving alot of the rubbish that was wrote about him over the years.
Its a pity then that he didn't hold till the promise he made and cut the junior ministries to 13, all the money he has saved from the headline grabbing cuts will only cover the running of the two ministries. But then again he could hardly not have given a job to the embarrassment from his own constituency.
I take you point about the ministries OLG, but as these are not a new number of minisries, it is disingenuous to say they offset any new cuts. Even if they were the pay cuts and reduction in Garda driver (54+20 spares) costs alone would more than counterweight 2 ministers and staff. I think an coalition except a Fine Gael + Independents would have resulted in the same number of ministers for the short term at least. An Alliance of the Centre-Populism-Left-CatholicConservatives such as Labour-FF-ULA-SF would have resulted in additional ministries. Yes I do think Creighton and Ring were very very very lucky to get juniors.
New governments attempt to remove civil servants privilege days rejected by an arbitration board.
Privlege Days were replacements for the King's Birthday & Empire Day.
mghu whats your opinion on the seanad? I remember enda saying he will abolish it but in the last few weeks we have received leaflets through our letterbox here for upcoming seanad elections. Not another false promise/lie?
On the privilege days the new govt could not prove a high enough cost saving apparently according to the arbitration board result, annoying as they are total joke of holidays.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 21, 2011, 05:23:10 PM
mghu whats your opinion on the seanad? I remember enda saying he will abolish it but in the last few weeks we have received leaflets through our letterbox here for upcoming seanad elections. Not another false promise/lie?
He said in his opening speech as Taoiseach that the new government planned to abolish the Seanad. It will require a constitutional amendment so obviously they're going to proceed with the elections.
Quote from: deiseach on March 21, 2011, 05:47:13 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 21, 2011, 05:23:10 PM
mghu whats your opinion on the seanad? I remember enda saying he will abolish it but in the last few weeks we have received leaflets through our letterbox here for upcoming seanad elections. Not another false promise/lie?
He said in his opening speech as Taoiseach that the new government planned to abolish the Seanad. It will require a constitutional amendment so obviously they're going to proceed with the elections.
Yep, they're constitutionally obliged to proceed until an amendment is made.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 21, 2011, 05:23:10 PM
mghu whats your opinion on the seanad? I remember enda saying he will abolish it but in the last few weeks we have received leaflets through our letterbox here for upcoming seanad elections. Not another false promise/lie?
On the privilege days the new govt could not prove a high enough cost saving apparently according to the arbitration board result, annoying as they are total joke of holidays.
1. As I understand they plan to abolish the Seanad. They will need to ammend the constitution by referendum as far as I understand. Until that referendum they like all parties who are pro or anti the status quo need to treat the election to the Seanad as a serious part of the democratic process. I wonder how such a refendum will be carried out. If the people rejected its abolition would they try to reform the Seanad and would that require a second referendum.
2. Ye it is ridiculous that these days are still taken. I really agree with you on these privilege days. I posted re these not as a + or - for the new administration, as while its an encouraging attempt at reform, it is also a defeat.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 21, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 21, 2011, 05:23:10 PM
mghu whats your opinion on the seanad? I remember enda saying he will abolish it but in the last few weeks we have received leaflets through our letterbox here for upcoming seanad elections. Not another false promise/lie?
On the privilege days the new govt could not prove a high enough cost saving apparently according to the arbitration board result, annoying as they are total joke of holidays.
1. As I understand they plan to abolish the Seanad. They will need to ammend the constitution by referendum as far as I understand. Until that referendum they like all parties who are pro or anti the status quo need to treat the election to the Seanad as a serious part of the democratic process. I wonder how such a refendum will be carried out. If the people rejected its abolition would they try to reform the Seanad and would that require a second referendum.
2. Ye it is ridiculous that these days are still taken. I really agree with you on these privilege days. I posted re these not as a + or - for the new administration, as while its an encouraging attempt at reform, it is also a defeat.
Fair enough but isnt it a waste of money going for seanad if it maybe gone in not too distant future, couldnt common sense prevail and elections be put on hold or fast track the referedum. Im glad the govt are still going ahead with its abolishment.
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 21, 2011, 09:50:17 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 21, 2011, 08:33:40 PM
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on March 21, 2011, 05:23:10 PM
mghu whats your opinion on the seanad? I remember enda saying he will abolish it but in the last few weeks we have received leaflets through our letterbox here for upcoming seanad elections. Not another false promise/lie?
On the privilege days the new govt could not prove a high enough cost saving apparently according to the arbitration board result, annoying as they are total joke of holidays.
1. As I understand they plan to abolish the Seanad. They will need to ammend the constitution by referendum as far as I understand. Until that referendum they like all parties who are pro or anti the status quo need to treat the election to the Seanad as a serious part of the democratic process. I wonder how such a refendum will be carried out. If the people rejected its abolition would they try to reform the Seanad and would that require a second referendum.
2. Ye it is ridiculous that these days are still taken. I really agree with you on these privilege days. I posted re these not as a + or - for the new administration, as while its an encouraging attempt at reform, it is also a defeat.
Fair enough but isnt it a waste of money going for seanad if it maybe gone in not too distant future, couldnt common sense prevail and elections be put on hold or fast track the referedum. Im glad the govt are still going ahead with its abolishment.
On the first part of the sentance I am no expert but is there not a constitutional imperative to do so. On the second part this requires alot of work around Bunreacth na hÉireann. I'm sure you wouldn't want any rash alterations being made to our constitution.
if fine gael are about abolishing the seanad then they wont be nominating anyone will they
Until it is abolished by referendum they will play by the rules.
Kenny has 11 picks for the Seanad, if he really wants some sort of reform he will pick 11 independent minded people representing a broad section of society and not Fine Gael members.
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 10:29:05 PM
if fine gael are about abolishing the seanad then they wont be nominating anyone will they
Well yes, of course. I may be wrong but I thought Sinn Féin wanted it abolished too. They are nominating 4. A government or any party would be foolish to ignore the Seanad while it is still in existence.
Quote from: Orangemac on March 21, 2011, 10:41:11 PM
Until it is abolished by referendum they will play by the rules.
Kenny has 11 picks for the Seanad, if he really wants some sort of reform he will pick 11 independent minded people representing a broad section of society and not Fine Gael members.
That would be a great idea, it would be even better if they could get the other parties to follow suit and set up a temporary non-partisanship situation in the upper house.
Look @ Fianna Fáils carry on for the next Seanad elections, they are running 30. Complete and utter madness, they have lost the plot. SF want 4, running 4. Labour want 9, running 9.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 21, 2011, 10:51:43 PM
Quote from: Orangemac on March 21, 2011, 10:41:11 PM
Until it is abolished by referendum they will play by the rules.
Kenny has 11 picks for the Seanad, if he really wants some sort of reform he will pick 11 independent minded people representing a broad section of society and not Fine Gael members.
That would be a great idea, it would be even better if they could get the other parties to follow suit and set up a temporary non-partisanship situation in the upper house.
Look @ Fianna Fáils carry on for the next Seanad elections, they are running 30. Complete and utter madness, they have lost the plot. SF want 4, running 4. Labour want 9, running 9.
if these parties were serious about getting rid of it then by ignoring it they'd be sending out a clear message to voters that its obselete i dont think sinn fein should bother
Quote from: Orangemac on March 21, 2011, 10:41:11 PM
Until it is abolished by referendum they will play by the rules.
Kenny has 11 picks for the Seanad, if he really wants some sort of reform he will pick 11 independent minded people representing a broad section of society and not Fine Gael members.
In other words, deprive the government of a majority in the Upper House. If he did that, he'd be nothing short of insane.
abolishing the seanad should have been another box to tick on the ballet paper a month ago. too much fuching around >:(
Quote from: lawnseed on March 21, 2011, 11:10:24 PM
abolishing the seanad should have been another box to tick on the ballet paper a month ago. too much fuching around >:(
You cannot just make up Irish constitutional law as you go along. The last government called the shots re such things up until the election of a new Taoiseach and his government. The last crowd where against abolishing the Dáil. Remember Fine Gael and Sinn Féin were not the last government. Fine Gael cannot just build a retrospective time machine and go do that. Even though it would be cheaper to build than the Billions given away by Fianna Fáil.
Why the mad rush to abolish the senate anyway? What will it be replaced with? It might be an idea to abolish the salaries paid to senators, would that remove the biggest problem that people have with it?
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 22, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
Why the mad rush to abolish the senate anyway? What will it be replaced with? It might be an idea to abolish the salaries paid to senators, would that remove the biggest problem that people have with it?
Does it need to be replaced? Didn't New Zealand abolish theirs in the 1950's.
http://www.tv3.ie/videos.php?video=33877&locID=1.65.169&date=2011-03-22&date_mode=1&page=1&show_cal=1&newspanel=1&showspanel=&web_only=&full_episodes=
All worth a watch especially after 37.30, imagine voting her in.. :o some legal adviser
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on March 22, 2011, 12:30:23 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on March 22, 2011, 12:24:10 PM
Why the mad rush to abolish the senate anyway? What will it be replaced with? It might be an idea to abolish the salaries paid to senators, would that remove the biggest problem that people have with it?
Does it need to be replaced? Didn't New Zealand abolish theirs in the 1950's.
There are surprisingly few unicameral legislatures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unicameralism#National) - Denmark, Finland, Greece, Iceland, Malta, New Zealand, Portugal, South Korea and Sweden are the only mature democracies that have them (no disrespect to the Baltic states). I think that's a product of inertia though. Countries needed Senates in an era when information travelled slowly and a 'deliberative' chamber was needed. Doesn't apply these days
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0323/breaking20.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/0323/breaking20.html)
Kenny questioned on Esat donation
MARIE O'HALLORAN and MICHAEL O'REGAN
Taoiseach Enda Kenny has asked Minister for Communications Pat Rabbitte to refer the Moriarty report to the Director for Public Prosecutions and to the Garda Commissioner.
He also confirmed in the Dáil the report would be debated in the House next week and that the Government chief whip would make arrangements for the debate.
Mr Kenny also said the US$50,000 donation from Esat Digifone was "wrong" but then taoiseach and Fine Gael leader John Bruton, when informed about it, asked that it be sent back immediately.
Mr Kenny regretted the "circuitous route" it had taken before being sent back. He was replying to questions from Fianna Fáil leader Micheál Martin and Sinn Féin leader Gerry Adams.
Mr Martin demanded a response from the Taoiseach to the report which he described as "profoundly disturbing".
He noted Fine Gael had not provided any spokesperson to the media on the report. However, Mr Kenny pointed out the-then rainbow coalition government had been exonerated of any wrongdoing by the Moriarty tribunal.
Mr Adams repeatedly asked if Fine Gael had received any other donations, which had not been declared. When he referred to the $US 50,000 donation to Fine Gael, the Government benches erupted in laughter.