Last year Down would have been considered a mediocre enough team and this year they may well win the AI.
How have they turned it round? Is it simply Martin Clarke's return? James McCartan's management skills?
Hard to see exactly what the secret is as Clarke aside it's a very similar bunch of players but obviously something is being done right.
It's McCartan that should be getting all the credit.
Down are one of the few counties in Ireland that can decide its their year and then go and do it.. The Mc Cartan link, their heritage - reminders of who they are remember their pride at hosting congress in Newcastle - and great belief are all interwoven to produce a team that quite frankly are unbeatable from this stage in. Mc Cartan to Down is what Maradona was to Argentina during most of the world cup. ;)
a lot of former minor and u21 talnt finally reaching maturity and competition for places on the side is the difference in playing personnel.
The manager deserves massive credit for having Down play a very intelligent style of game.
Fast attacking but good defence.
Will see how they are if cork decide to run at them , which I think might be Downs only problem (problem for most teams though)
Fair play to Down but its hard to believe offaly had them on the ropes missing 2 one on ones with the keeper and only losing by 2pts in the end. They must have decided to be a serious team after this game ;), all the cliches in the world cant explain downs rise, they took every game as it came and went from there.
sometimes timing and a bit of luck are invaluable big king and m clarke are massive assetts with existing players used else where or in their best positions ie gordon and mckernan. like all teams momentum and a bit of belief coupled with better organisation and preperation (no coincidence a very strong management team all with their own strengths) COMBINE AT THE RIGHT TIME to leave 30 players busting a gut to be on the team and love every minute of training until 19th september
Quote from: SLIGONIAN on August 30, 2010, 01:07:41 PM
Fair play to Down but its hard to believe offaly had them on the ropes missing 2 one on ones with the keeper and only losing by 2pts in the end. They must have decided to be a serious team after this game ;), all the cliches in the world cant explain downs rise, they took every game as it came and went from there.
:D
It's a very strange phenomenon and it's hard to understand how there could be anything in common between the teams of the sixties, nineties and today. But unless it's coincidence, there seems to be something at work in the Down psyche (or maybe just in their way of playing football) that sees them come from nowhere all of a sudden and win unexpected All-Irelands.
With the exception of 1961 (I assume they were in everybody's reckoning as reigning champions that year), they have started every All-Ireland winning year as completely unconsidered outsiders, as far as I can remember anyway.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2010, 12:13:25 PM
Last year Down would have been considered a mediocre enough team and this year they may well win the AI.
How have they turned it round? Is it simply Martin Clarke's return? James McCartan's management skills?
Hard to see exactly what the secret is as Clarke aside it's a very similar bunch of players but obviously something is being done right.
A few things coming together (IMO).
1. A load of good footballers coming through, and some of them defenders (incidentally, I firmly believe our minors should have duffed Tyrone and should be in the curtain raiser in a couple of weeks - the hogan cup winners and one of the U-18 vocational schools finalists were 'Down' schools).
2. Better tactics - everyone knew our full back line is the one full backline in the country that needed more protection. We haven't put much emphasis on that till this year.
3. We've always had decent forwards in the county. Only when we sort out the backline are we a runner for Sam. We'd good backs in 91 and 94... less so since. Now the backline is looking pretty solid again and we're going places.
I think too much is being read into it to be honest. A pretty handy run in the qualifiers after being easily beat by Tyrone, and they then face a Kerry team missing their two key men on top of the 3 or 4 who had started in the previous All Ireland final. They played well to win yesterday but the difference was the rub of the green - disallowed scores, goal that shouldn't have stood, not conceding a penalty when handling on the ground and the crossbar coming to their rescue.
In fairness to Down I can remember their training regime being questioned when they ran out of steam against Tyrone in June, on hindsight it looks like they got their fitness timing right. I think the influence of Paddy Tally who trained Tyrone to the All Ireland in 2003 and they have in their ranks as well Brian Mc Ivor - a really great man manager who wan an all ireland club with Balinderry. They are both men I would love to see being in the reckoning when Harte quits.
Brian McIvor
Maybe the fact that so many poster from here and the media have been spouting sh*te about them before every match has helped them by down playing there chances. They beat Sligo by 19 and the media where saying they caught Sligo after they lost the Connaught final against Roscommon (only hurling teams beat other teams by 19 points), surely some sort of alarm bells should have been going off that the quarter final would not be a walk over. None of the pundits gave them much of a chance against Kerry, only afterwards when they totally outclassed Kerry we hear they where sitting ducks, stuffing Kerry don't be reading too much into it and most of the pundits where strongly tipping Kildare or as Dara O'Se said in his column 'the more I think of the more I can't see how Kildare can lose this game'. It has already started now before the Cork game, they will be too physical for Down, they've too much experience .. Hopefully only about 20 minutes into the final do the Cork team start to think holy f*&k these boys can actually play a bit and we could be in trouble here.
Down now have some good forwards who can take their scores, and wee James has tightened up their defence considerably since last year.
After beating Kerry they fear nobody and fair play to them I hope they go on and win it now.
James McCartan obviously has the management gift. I always used to watch out for down as I have a soft spot for them and I was thinking some year they would come good. They lost an all-Ireland under 21 to galway back in 2005 and Benny Coulter and Clarke are players that would make it onto any team. Throw in a period of interregnum with Tyrone and Kerry both in decline and no other team coming up on the outside (Meath, Mayo and Galway all poor, the Dubs still missing something, Donegal in remission) and then Down getting their shit together and it makes sense. I hope they go on to win it and make 6 Sams.
For years the pundits said why hasn't the under aged success at Down come through? & now that they are only 70mins away from All Ireland success some are wondering where they came from?
it's a repeat of last years Under 21 Final (cork won) i wonder what odds you would get on a Donegal v Dublin Senior final for next year?
I wouldn't discount Dublin from an All Ireland final.
Donegal I would put at very long odds to get to an AI final though based on the last few years.
Quote from: nrico2006 on August 30, 2010, 01:59:51 PM
I think too much is being read into it to be honest. A pretty handy run in the qualifiers after being easily beat by Tyrone, and they then face a Kerry team missing their two key men on top of the 3 or 4 who had started in the previous All Ireland final. They played well to win yesterday but the difference was the rub of the green - disallowed scores, goal that shouldn't have stood, not conceding a penalty when handling on the ground and the crossbar coming to their rescue.
A Kerry team with 11 All Star awards and a shed load of celtic crosses.
If you touch the ball on the ground sure is it not a free as opposed to a penalty??
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2010, 07:10:14 PM
If you touch the ball on the ground sure is it not a free as opposed to a penalty??
If you touch it on the ground inside the wee box it's a peno..
I'm amazed by Down as much as anyone.
Yes, wee James has tightened up the defence.
Good attacking half backs.
Two midfielders, both of whom can catch, plus a few more on the bench.
Half forwards not afraid to shoot
A full forward line all capable of taking scores.
I have to say from an Armagh perspective, I'm pretty jealous.
Quote from: Orior on August 30, 2010, 07:29:09 PM
I'm amazed by Down as much as anyone.
Yes, wee James has tightened up the defence.
Good attacking half backs.
Two midfielders, both of whom can catch, plus a few more on the bench.
Half forwards not afraid to shoot
A full forward line all capable of taking scores.
I have to say from an Armagh perspective, I'm pretty jealous.
Shur you have a Down man too!
Apart from your half forward line don't think Down are that far ahead of Armagh. Down got the better deal on the manager side.
Down have had players coming though a few years but McCartan has been able to make it gel. People have talked about Derry having players coming through for a few years but it has never materialised.
Bit jealous myself but will be cheering the boys in Red ( sorry yellow) against Cork
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2010, 11:38:44 PM
Apart from your half forward line don't think Down are that far ahead of Armagh. Down got the better deal on the manager side.
Down have had players coming though a few years but McCartan has been able to make it gel. People have talked about Derry having players coming through for a few years but it has never materialised.
Bit jealous myself but will be cheering the boys in Red ( sorry yellow) against Cork
In fairness to O'Rourke Benny Coulter has said before that he was the best manager he ever worked with, he was just sorry Down didn't have a team that could do him justice. It's for another thread but when O'Rourke took over in 2003 Down still had players like Mickey Linden in the panel who had been in the Down senior panel since 1982. He had to basically start from scratch with the like of Benny and others. A bit like Armagh now after McConville, McGrane, Bellew, 2 McIntees etc. retired, it takes time to get back to that standard again. You said yourself that Down have a better 1/2 forward line, 1 or 2 players can and do make the difference between a 2 point loss and a 1 point win.
Quote from: Maiden1 on August 31, 2010, 11:10:59 AM
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2010, 11:38:44 PM
Apart from your half forward line don't think Down are that far ahead of Armagh. Down got the better deal on the manager side.
Down have had players coming though a few years but McCartan has been able to make it gel. People have talked about Derry having players coming through for a few years but it has never materialised.
Bit jealous myself but will be cheering the boys in Red ( sorry yellow) against Cork
In fairness to O'Rourke Benny Coulter has said before that he was the best manager he ever worked with, he was just sorry Down didn't have a team that could do him justice. It's for another thread but when O'Rourke took over in 2003 Down still had players like Mickey Linden in the panel who had been in the Down senior panel since 1982. He had to basically start from scratch with the like of Benny and others. A bit like Armagh now after McConville, McGrane, Bellew, 2 McIntees etc. retired, it takes time to get back to that standard again. You said yourself that Down have a better 1/2 forward line, 1 or 2 players can and do make the difference between a 2 point loss and a 1 point win.
And Marty Clarke is the difference. We owe a great deal to those involved in persuading him back
Quote from: Orangemac on August 30, 2010, 11:38:44 PM
Apart from your half forward line don't think Down are that far ahead of Armagh. Down got the better deal on the manager side.
Down have had players coming though a few years but McCartan has been able to make it gel. People have talked about Derry having players coming through for a few years but it has never materialised.
Bit jealous myself but will be cheering the boys in Red ( sorry yellow) against Cork
Derry haven't many players coming through the past while, no minor since 02 and nothing at the most important age group in years for u21's. Down won the Ulster u21 in 05, 08 and 09, that means that you have a number of quality young players coming through. James has obviously made his mark, but something was happening in Down whenever wee Pete Mc Grath wanted the hot seat again.
Down looked very fit on Sunday - Tally has proved himself with Tyrone -
Brian Mc Ivor has also massive experience and is as good a coach as there is out there.
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2010, 07:10:14 PM
If you touch the ball on the ground sure is it not a free as opposed to a penalty??
If you take 11 or 12 steps, sure its a free out and not a goal? These calls happen over the course of a game for both teams.
Tally & McIvor were a great coup for Wee James's back room & we saw that during the leauge.
DOES ANYONE KNOW WILL AMBROSE BE FIT FOR FINAL ??
Quote from: dundrumite on August 31, 2010, 01:12:49 PM
Quote from: imtommygunn on August 30, 2010, 07:10:14 PM
If you touch the ball on the ground sure is it not a free as opposed to a penalty??
If you take 11 or 12 steps, sure its a free out and not a goal? These calls happen over the course of a game for both teams.
Who took 11 or 12 steps with the ball in hand?
well its a free against danny hughes every time he gets the ball so. and coulter most of the time...