Interesting idea, Sounds like to me like the people will have to save their church themselves (if they want to) as the pope and his bishop only want to look after their own greedy interests.....
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/tell-bishops-to-get-the-hell-out-of-our-cathedrals-says-writer-2305040.html
Tell bishops to 'get the hell out of our cathedrals', says writer
By Marese McDonagh
Friday August 20 2010
Irish Catholics should establish a home-grown church by demanding that the bishops "get the hell out of your cathedrals", a leading author said yesterday.
Former 'Newsweek' journalist Robert Blair Kaiser also said that a grandmother who is urging women to boycott Mass in protest at the way women are treated in the church has started a revolution
He called on Irish Catholics to fix their "broken church" by making it "more Irish, less Roman" at the opening of the Humbert Summer School in Co Mayo.
Mr Blair Kaiser, who reported on the second Vatican Council for 'Time' magazine, said that the battle for the Irish Catholic church had already been started by 80-year-old Jennifer Sleeman, who has called on women to boycott Sunday mass on September 26 "to let the Vatican and the Irish church know women are tired of being treated as second-class citizens".
The US author said that the Cork grandmother had probably started the revolution.
"I have every reason to believe that you can take back your church -- your church, not the Pope's church, your church -- not the bishops' church", said Mr Blair Kaiser who recommended that Irish Catholics create a "autochthonous" or local and from-the-ground-up church.
In a keynote address 'Church Reform: No More Thrones', the author said he was not attacking the Catholic faith but the "special and corrosive tyranny that popes have been exercising over Catholics everywhere".
He said that in the 1800s, Ireland's first cardinal, Paul Cullen, had built a two-tiered clerical Irish church which marched in total loyalty to Rome and his own over-reaching authority. Later, Dublin Archbishop John Charles McQuaid had "put his own special twists" on Cardinal Cullen's authoritarian model, imposing his iron will on Irish politics and Irish society.
"The cardinal and the archbishop established the clerical culture in Ireland that Judge Yvonne Murphy identified as the root cause of the Irish scandals that have sent your nation reeling," said Blair Kaiser.
Irish Catholics could establish a home-grown church by demanding bishops "get the hell out of your cathedrals" and elect their own bishops who would serve the people as listeners, not lords," he suggested.
Rejected
In a response to the US expert, 'Irish Catholic' deputy editor Michael Kelly rejected the comparison between England's occupation and the "colonising power" of the papacy.
He said that while he shared the keynote speaker's sadness that the church in Ireland had been unwilling and unable to embrace the teachings of the second Vatican Council, he could not accept that the council intended a rupture of the Catholic tradition of the church.
"What I have experienced in Ireland is a Catholicism that has betrayed the best tradition of our church, he added. He said it was more consoling to blame Rome than to search Irish Catholicism for what had gone wrong and he called for an "honest investigation" into the culture of the church here.
The dreadful truth about the "cabal of egomaniacal clerics" who failed Irish Catholics so dreadfully, is that these bishops did not come from Rome or Constantinople -- but from Caherciveen, Tullamore, Cavan, Roscommon and Castlebar.
The school continues today with an examination of the response by the Pope and the Irish hierarchy to the abuse scandals.
- Marese McDonagh
This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.
A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".
Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.
Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.
Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.
Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.
"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."
According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".
Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.
A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.
However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.
Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.
Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.
Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.
"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.
Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.
"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.
Does Robert Blair Kaiser want to be the next Reverand Ian Kyle Paisley and form his own church?
I wont be joining you Reverand Robert.
Orior beat me to, this style of church and religion already existds in Ireland, protestantism in all its forms and guises.
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 11:32:31 AM
Orior beat me to, this style of church and religion already existds in Ireland, protestantism in all its forms and guises.
so are you saying that the only difference between Catholicism and the varying forms of Protestantism is purely structural and organisational and no differences in faith?
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
Quote from: orangeman on August 20, 2010, 10:13:51 AM
This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.
A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".
Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.
Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.
Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.
Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.
"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."
According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".
Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.
A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.
However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.
Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.
Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.
Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.
"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.
Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.
"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.
Orageman, I am not sure of your take on this. Your comments make it see mlike the congregation have refused to pay Dues and stormed the Sacristy to get the priest out.
My reading of it is they stormed the sacristy to get more details from the Bishop and were refusing to pay becasue the Bishop was going to transfer a popular and well liked Priest?
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 12:17:23 PM
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
One of my Presbyterian friends from Dublin would strongly disagree with you, she considers herself a Catholic too, but just not R.C.
Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.
A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 12:17:23 PM
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
Is that worse than what we will have shortly, a morally bankrupt administration in charge of the Catholic church?
Funny how they ignore the law of the land when it suits (citing loyalty to Canon Law) and then hide behind it when it suits often stating they can't comment for legal reasons.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 20, 2010, 04:19:03 PM
Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.
A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.
Well the reality is that human values completely guide religion anyway as they evolve rather than the other way around.
The Old Testament God- vengeful, engages in collective punishment, racist. Over time we realise those aren't very nice things so Christianity tries to ignore them. We're supposed to live by the Ten Commandments but Christians happily ignore the stuff Moses said about wiping out another people apart from the young virgin females to have for his own wicked way.
Religion's largely a harmless enough thing for most people though so if people want to suspend all rational thought and believe in fairytales then good luck to them!
myles, I am not surprised you would be in favour of this but I wouldn't be. Without going into it, I am sure you know why :)
If all the RCs joined the COI then we'd be free. It might feck up Drumcree sunday though.
armaghniac, you should put Nicky Rackard cup 2010 winners in your signature as well
Quote from: LeoMc on August 20, 2010, 01:21:44 PM
Quote from: orangeman on August 20, 2010, 10:13:51 AM
This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.
A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".
Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.
Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.
Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.
Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.
"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."
According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".
Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.
A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.
However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.
Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.
Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.
Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.
"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.
Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.
"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.
Orageman, I am not sure of your take on this. Your comments make it see mlike the congregation have refused to pay Dues and stormed the Sacristy to get the priest out.
My reading of it is they stormed the sacristy to get more details from the Bishop and were refusing to pay becasue the Bishop was going to transfer a popular and well liked Priest?
No transfer - just told to go. But you're right.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on August 20, 2010, 08:17:11 PM
armaghniac, you should put Nicky Rackard cup 2010 winners in your signature as well
Someone in Armagh noticed?! ;)
A few of us ;)
Quote from: orangeman on August 20, 2010, 10:13:51 AM
This man was given till 6pm last Saturday to pack his bags and go and then we are told he has voluntarily stepped down. It's good to see the people of Blackrock have a bit of back bone when they stormed the sacristy and faced down the Bishop. And more importantly, the parishioners vow there'll be no more dues or envelopes paid. This might be the start of it.
A LOCAL priest who has voluntarily stepped down while the Catholic Church investigates a complaint relating to child safeguarding has said he is "absolutely innocent".
Former Haggardstown-Blackrock Parish Priest Fr Oliver Brennan told The Dundalk Democrat that he would like to comment further, however, he is unable to do so due to legal reasons.
Parishioners were left reeling after Bishop Gerard Clifford made the shock announcement after Mass in Blackrock and Haggardstown last weekend.
Bishop Clifford addressed the congregation in Blackrock about a decision made regarding their parish priest after the 6.30pm mass on Saturday, August 14. He addressed the congregation in Haggardstown at 9am mass the following day.
Speaking at Mass Bishop Clifford said: "This week the Archdiocese has been made aware of a complaint relating to child safeguarding against a priest of the diocese.
"The priest has agreed to voluntarily step down to allow the investigation into this matter to be conducted efficiently. The allegation has been reported to the civil authorities, and the Diocese and the priest will fully cooperate with any investigation. Whilst this process is ongoing the priest is entitled to the benefit of a presumption of innocence."
According to church-goers who were present at the Blackrock Mass when Bishop Clifford was reading the statement, "the church was so quiet, you could hear a pin drop".
Eye-witnesses said that there was "war in the sacristy" after Bishop Clifford had finished the announcement. A number of parishioners verbally challenged the Bishop in the sacristy who told them he was unable to make any additional comment.
A spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Armagh told The Dundalk Democrat that he could not comment on where and when the alleged offence was supposed to have occurred.
However, a source claims that the alleged offence is said to have been reported by an anonymous caller, and is said to have occurred over 30 years ago.
Fr Brennan, who originally comes from Edmondstown, Ardee was based in Haggardstown-Blackrock for just over 10 years and is hugely popular with his parishioners, young and old alike.
Parishioners in Blackrock and Haggardstown have voiced their support for Fr Brennan who was told by the Church two weeks ago that he would be moved to a different parish in early September.
Angered by the Church's decision, the parishioners went on strike refusing to collect dues or pay over €1 million in debt owed for the refurbishment of their church if the popular priest was removed.
"I know the procedures have to be in place but I don't believe it. He was such a dedicated man. I can't put words on it. It's so awful for him as a person and as a priest," said Blackrock parishioner Vivienne Lamont.
Fidelma Lavelle from Dunmahon said she is "utterly disgusted" by Fr Brennan's removal from the parish.
"The man is distraught. The whole parish is distraught.
There seems to be more to that story - the offence was reported by an anonymous caller? wtf?
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 12:17:23 PM
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
The only real big dogmatic difference that exists between the Catholic Church and the schismatics is between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The dispute began over the nature of how humanity and divinity mixed in Christ. The distance between Rome and Constantinople didn't help, of course.
The Episcopalian churches go back to Henry VIII's decision to divorce his wife in the early 16th Century and marry a woman half her age. That wasn't a doctrinal dispute. That was about power, politics and the royal taste for skirt. The Churches have evolved differently since, but it's difficult to measure similarities and differences now as so many different branches of Protestantism exist. For instance, the current Anglican Bishop of York would have more in common with Rome than with the Right Reverend Gene Robinson, even though they are both - nominally - Episcopalian.
Robert Blair Kaiser has no credibility. He's talking through his hat.
Haven't a bog what's going on in Cork, other than an expectation that they'll take Dublin on Sunday.
Speaking of Robert Blair Kaiser, take a look at his website: http://www.robertblairkaiser.com/
I wouldn't leave him in charge of the TV remote.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 20, 2010, 04:19:03 PM
Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.
A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.
while I don't believe being part of a religion means you automatically have better moral values than others I wouldn't agree with that statement either.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2010, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 12:17:23 PM
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
The only real big dogmatic difference that exists between the Catholic Church and the schismatics is between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The dispute began over the nature of how humanity and divinity mixed in Christ. The distance between Rome and Constantinople didn't help, of course.
The Episcopalian churches go back to Henry VIII's decision to divorce his wife in the early 16th Century and marry a woman half her age. That wasn't a doctrinal dispute. That was about power, politics and the royal taste for skirt. The Churches have evolved differently since, but it's difficult to measure similarities and differences now as so many different branches of Protestantism exist. For instance, the current Anglican Bishop of York would have more in common with Rome than with the Right Reverend Gene Robinson, even though they are both - nominally - Episcopalian.
Robert Blair Kaiser has no credibility. He's talking through his hat.
Haven't a bog what's going on in Cork, other than an expectation that they'll take Dublin on Sunday.
The Roman Catholic Church moved to Byzantium with Constantine. Sometime in the 9th Century a document was produced which apparently made the Bishop of Rome head of the west Roman Church. This document claimed that in the 5th Century, just as he left Rome, Constantine donated the western part of the old Roman empire and most of the world (i.e. everything but the old East Roman Empire) to the Roman bishop. It is thought that it was after this document was produced that the Bishop of Rome became known as Papa and later Pope.
This forgery elevated the status and power of the Pope. Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Frankish Empire (the title Emperor was to suggest a continuation of the line of Roman Emperors) by Pope Stephen under the auspices of the Donation. It is thought that Stephen initiated the coronation to gain favour with Charlemagne as Rome was in serious danger from the Lombardians who raided frequently. Of course Stephen claimed that only the Bishop of Rome had the authority under God to crown an Emperor and this obviously did no harm to his own status.
A year after the coronation Charlemagne routed the Lombardians and gave their lands to the Pope, these became known as the Papal Lands and existed up to the 1920s.
Catholic Encyclopedia - Donation of Constantine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm)
Sure didn't the Pope sent the Brits over here to sort us out. Papal Bull my hole.
Quote from: muppet on August 21, 2010, 12:56:58 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2010, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 12:17:23 PM
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
The only real big dogmatic difference that exists between the Catholic Church and the schismatics is between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The dispute began over the nature of how humanity and divinity mixed in Christ. The distance between Rome and Constantinople didn't help, of course.
The Episcopalian churches go back to Henry VIII's decision to divorce his wife in the early 16th Century and marry a woman half her age. That wasn't a doctrinal dispute. That was about power, politics and the royal taste for skirt. The Churches have evolved differently since, but it's difficult to measure similarities and differences now as so many different branches of Protestantism exist. For instance, the current Anglican Bishop of York would have more in common with Rome than with the Right Reverend Gene Robinson, even though they are both - nominally - Episcopalian.
Robert Blair Kaiser has no credibility. He's talking through his hat.
Haven't a bog what's going on in Cork, other than an expectation that they'll take Dublin on Sunday.
The Roman Catholic Church moved to Byzantium with Constantine. Sometime in the 9th Century a document was produced which apparently made the Bishop of Rome head of the west Roman Church. This document claimed that in the 5th Century, just as he left Rome, Constantine donated the western part of the old Roman empire and most of the world (i.e. everything but the old East Roman Empire) to the Roman bishop. It is thought that it was after this document was produced that the Bishop of Rome became known as Papa and later Pope.
This forgery elevated the status and power of the Pope. Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Frankish Empire (the title Emperor was to suggest a continuation of the line of Roman Emperors) by Pope Stephen under the auspices of the Donation. It is thought that Stephen initiated the coronation to gain favour with Charlemagne as Rome was in serious danger from the Lombardians who raided frequently. Of course Stephen claimed that only the Bishop of Rome had the authority under God to crown an Emperor and this obviously did no harm to his own status.
A year after the coronation Charlemagne routed the Lombardians and gave their lands to the Pope, these became known as the Papal Lands and existed up to the 1920s.
Catholic Encyclopedia - Donation of Constantine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm)
Byzantium fell in the 13th Century and the Papal States in the 19th. I think that the question of
homoousion (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm) remains at the root of the schism however.
Quote from: ONeill on August 21, 2010, 01:07:00 PM
Sure didn't the Pope sent the Brits over here to sort us out. Papal Bull my hole.
No. The Pope approved the Norman invasion after the event, but he did not send them.
The Normans came here at the invitation of Diarmuid McMurrough to help him win back the Kingdom of Leinster. They weren't sent by the Pope.
Ach Adrian knew what he was at - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laudabiliter
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 21, 2010, 05:16:07 PM
Quote from: muppet on August 21, 2010, 12:56:58 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 20, 2010, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: whatsinaname on August 20, 2010, 12:17:23 PM
Definitely not, there are significant differences in faith and dogma between the Catholic church and the various Protestant denominations. What I was trying to point out, was that when a person or group of persons decide to break out from under the of the Church hierarchy then invariably a train of events are set in motion that result in a new religion. The resulting religion that would inevitably evolve from "kicking the Cardinals out of our cathedrals" would mean a new church, which couldn't possibly call itself Catholic. Thats all.
The only real big dogmatic difference that exists between the Catholic Church and the schismatics is between Rome and the Eastern Orthodox Churches. The dispute began over the nature of how humanity and divinity mixed in Christ. The distance between Rome and Constantinople didn't help, of course.
The Episcopalian churches go back to Henry VIII's decision to divorce his wife in the early 16th Century and marry a woman half her age. That wasn't a doctrinal dispute. That was about power, politics and the royal taste for skirt. The Churches have evolved differently since, but it's difficult to measure similarities and differences now as so many different branches of Protestantism exist. For instance, the current Anglican Bishop of York would have more in common with Rome than with the Right Reverend Gene Robinson, even though they are both - nominally - Episcopalian.
Robert Blair Kaiser has no credibility. He's talking through his hat.
Haven't a bog what's going on in Cork, other than an expectation that they'll take Dublin on Sunday.
The Roman Catholic Church moved to Byzantium with Constantine. Sometime in the 9th Century a document was produced which apparently made the Bishop of Rome head of the west Roman Church. This document claimed that in the 5th Century, just as he left Rome, Constantine donated the western part of the old Roman empire and most of the world (i.e. everything but the old East Roman Empire) to the Roman bishop. It is thought that it was after this document was produced that the Bishop of Rome became known as Papa and later Pope.
This forgery elevated the status and power of the Pope. Charlemagne was crowned Emperor of the Frankish Empire (the title Emperor was to suggest a continuation of the line of Roman Emperors) by Pope Stephen under the auspices of the Donation. It is thought that Stephen initiated the coronation to gain favour with Charlemagne as Rome was in serious danger from the Lombardians who raided frequently. Of course Stephen claimed that only the Bishop of Rome had the authority under God to crown an Emperor and this obviously did no harm to his own status.
A year after the coronation Charlemagne routed the Lombardians and gave their lands to the Pope, these became known as the Papal Lands and existed up to the 1920s.
Catholic Encyclopedia - Donation of Constantine (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05118a.htm)
Byzantium fell in the 13th Century and the Papal States in the 19th. I think that the question of homoousion (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07449a.htm) remains at the root of the schism however.
Ended permanently by the Lateran Treaty (http://www.vaticanstate.va/NR/rdonlyres/3F574885-EAD5-47E9-A547-C3717005E861/2528/LateranTreaty.pdf) in 1929.
With two men as well up on religious matters as ourselves within the borders of the sweet County Mayo God will surely not leave us another year without Sam Muppet. It just cannot happen.
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 21, 2010, 10:18:14 PM
With two men as well up on religious matters as ourselves within the borders of the sweet County Mayo God will surely not leave us another year without Sam Muppet. It just cannot happen.
I'm not well up on these matters at all, just read (still have to finish it) Millenium by Tom Holland. He has writen brilliant narrative history books such as Rubicon and Persian Fire.
But I'll see if I can put in a good word with the Man above anyway...........just to see like......
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 20, 2010, 04:19:03 PM
Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.
A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.
A complete load of horse c**k.
Jesus there are some foul mouthed christians about these days :)
See god wasn't good to mayo today again
My sister lives in blackrock and was telling me that the parish are well behind fr Brennan. He is chaplain at the school her two young daughters attend, and she's very dismissive of the 'child safeguarding' issue. They all boycotted mass this morning.
Quote from: muppet on August 21, 2010, 10:21:20 PM
Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 21, 2010, 10:18:14 PM
With two men as well up on religious matters as ourselves within the borders of the sweet County Mayo God will surely not leave us another year without Sam Muppet. It just cannot happen.
I'm not well up on these matters at all, just read (still have to finish it) Millenium by Tom Holland. He has writen brilliant narrative history books such as Rubicon and Persian Fire.
But I'll see if I can put in a good word with the Man above anyway...........just to see like......
The brother has both those books.
Quote from: theskull1 on August 22, 2010, 03:14:56 PM
Jesus there are some foul mouthed christians about these days :)
See god wasn't good to mayo today again
Well hard to be good to us when he doesn't exist. My monkier is a tribute to the saying not the false deity.
Still pope Adrian's fault.
Quote from: stew on August 21, 2010, 11:55:11 PM
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 20, 2010, 04:19:03 PM
Pity we couldn't end all religion everywhere, that would be great.
A world without religion probably would result in the better values that Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddists, etc. etc. etc. claim to aspire too becoming a reality as Atheists tend to be the most moral people around from my experience.
A complete load of horse c**k.
Did your imaginary friend tell you to say that?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEu07RzZgbU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEu07RzZgbU)
Quote from: ONeill on August 23, 2010, 12:32:48 AM
Still pope Adrian's fault.
Sure he was Engerlish ::)
I don't see the point in basing my belief system or indeed my moral code on Bronze Age fairy tales. Thank God for Atheism.
If there was no religion in Ireland, Ireland would probably be United one way or the other.
Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on August 23, 2010, 01:07:03 AM
If there was no religion in Ireland, Ireland would probably be United one way or the other.
I'd doubt that. We'd find some other excuse to box the head of each other.
The only funny thing I ever heard from Ricky Gervais:
If there is a god, why did he make me an atheist?