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If Kildare beat Meath, then we have no Provinces finalists in Semi Finals. Surely this is not good practice for Gaa

have to agree, no provincial finalists in the AI semis is gonna look bad on the top dogs of the GAA as there is no reward for wanting to progress and do well in your own province and this may de-value those competitions and thus the current set up and could be a way for some to call for an open draw completely

says alot for building up a head of steam in the qualifiers

Yep, it doesn't make sense. Tyrone beat Down, Meath beat Dublin and Kerry beat Cork. But I suppose that's the way she goes.

Why does it not look good?

Next year all the semifinalists will be provincial champions, then the likes of you will be proclaiming the qualifiers as a waste of time.

If shocks and unexpected outcomes didn't happen, we wouldn't watch sport. But for some bizarre reason people regard a lack of symmetry in GAA outcomes as an area of concern.

The Wobbler is correct. It's a statistical anomaly this year. Nothing else.

Quote from: thewobbler on August 01, 2010, 05:53:34 PM
Why does it not look good?

Next year all the semifinalists will be provincial champions, then the likes of you will be proclaiming the qualifiers as a waste of time.

If shocks and unexpected outcomes didn't happen, we wouldn't watch sport. But for some bizarre reason people regard a lack of symmetry in GAA outcomes as an area of concern.

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 01, 2010, 05:56:23 PM
The Wobbler is correct. It's a statistical anomaly this year. Nothing else.

Certainly agree with both of these statements.

 at the end of the day.. if they were good enough this weekend they would have won but they were not..... so as they say "thats how the cookie crumbles"..

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 01, 2010, 05:56:23 PM
The Wobbler is correct. It's a statistical anomaly this year. Nothing else.

you can't state that for sure... if it happened next year too then it would/could be the beginning of a pattern

I like to see Roscommon, Kildare, Down in the latter stages, was great too when Fermanagh got there in 2004 makes for terrific viewing and optimism for EVERY county

It's about momentum and the qualifiers give you that.

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 01, 2010, 05:56:23 PM
The Wobbler is correct. It's a statistical anomaly this year. Nothing else.

You sure? Are the stats not well under 50%?

Lads, can ye make up ye're mind please. Its getting very hard for us to classify our AI into "soft" or otherwise if ye keep changing the rules.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 01, 2010, 06:29:54 PM
Lads, can ye make up ye're mind please. Its getting very hard for us to classify our AI into "soft" or otherwise if ye keep changing the rules.

Well you don't have to worry about that for now.

Quote from: Maguire01 on August 01, 2010, 06:31:06 PM

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 01, 2010, 06:29:54 PM
Lads, can ye make up ye're mind please. Its getting very hard for us to classify our AI into "soft" or otherwise if ye keep changing the rules.

Well you don't have to worry about that for now.

..and you've never had to worry about it. Probably never will either.

First of all I'll say that Dublin were the better team on the day yesterday, but for none of the Provincial winners and losers to be in the Semi-Final, it's a strange thing. Something that needs to be looked at by the GAA. Not sure what can be done though, as you don't want to disadvantage the teams that did make it through like Down & Kildare for being successful.

i don't get it... why does it need to be looked at. all counties when joining the championship knows the system.  i know mickey was on about having a another draw after the 1/4 finals to give provsional winners a chance if beaten, but do you think he would have wanted it 03, 05, 08?

i could be competely wrong on this... but i think what happened this weekend could be good for the g.a.a. it showed that the championship isn't dominated by certain teams giving counties more belief .. also for the supporters all over the country that get let down each year can now see it can be done!

i know i prefer a 32 county +london+new york champioship to a 5 county one!

Quote from: thewobbler on August 01, 2010, 05:53:34 PM
Why does it not look good?

Next year all the semifinalists will be provincial champions, then the likes of you will be proclaiming the qualifiers as a waste of time.

If shocks and unexpected outcomes didn't happen, we wouldn't watch sport. But for some bizarre reason people regard a lack of symmetry in GAA outcomes as an area of concern.

great to hear the voice of common sense. well said

wasn't this the whole idea of the back door, to give teams a second chance. if no back door team got through to the semi final, some eejits in the media would be ringing alarm bells about that too

Quote from: The Forfeit Point on August 01, 2010, 07:11:32 PM

Quote from: thewobbler on August 01, 2010, 05:53:34 PM
Why does it not look good?

Next year all the semifinalists will be provincial champions, then the likes of you will be proclaiming the qualifiers as a waste of time.

If shocks and unexpected outcomes didn't happen, we wouldn't watch sport. But for some bizarre reason people regard a lack of symmetry in GAA outcomes as an area of concern.

great to hear the voice of common sense. well said

wasn't this the whole idea of the back door, to give teams a second chance. if no back door team got through to the semi final, some eejits in the media would be ringing alarm bells about that too

No. The whole idea was to make the GAA more money. They claimed at the time they were looking after the little sides who train hard for 9 months, get thumped in the first round and that was that. But what has happened is the opposite. The back door allows the big sides to recover from a huge shock and come back stronger.

Don't get me wrong, i love the fact there are so many more games on - it makes it more interesting. But I miss the good oul days. You get beat and your out. Simple.

The only thing that needs to happen to the qualifiers in its current form is to sort out the schedule. All replays would probably have to be abolished.

For me though I'd love to see Provincial Championships at the start of the year, then an All Ireland Championship involving everyone, with a seeded draw based on the provincial championships - but no back door. This way we still get a lot of games, we still get shocks, we reward provincial winners and runners up, not punish them and Provincial Championships will mean something again.

(^ Just came off with that off the top of my head ^ )

The results over the weekend say two things. First is that for the third year in a row the All Ireland champion will not be a provincial winner, we will have the sixth back door winner in ten years. Second is that along with the first thing, the provincial championships have now been devalued. Badly. Managers know that winning your province no longer helps you to win the All Ireland.

It can be easy to dismiss the results that mean the four All Ireland semi finalists this year did not even reach their provincial finals as a fluke. But if something like that happens next year, say only one provincial winner gets to the semis, then it will be time to have a serious look at how the football championship is run before provincial titles start becoming worthless and the whole thing becoming a shambles.

The last 3 years ('08, '09 and '10) of the 12 semi-finalists, 9 have come from the qualifiers. Only Cork twice ('08 and '09) and Tyrone ('09) won their quarter finals.

Some will argue that the back doorers deserve it as they've been in the last chance saloon each time whereas the provincial winners only encounter that in the quarters for the first time.

But there's no doubt that playing every 7 or 8 days for a month has a team much more sharpened than the provincial winners who have been playing each other in training games for 3-4 weeks. It definitely was the case for Tyrone in 2008.

I think Mickey's solution was that only 2 teams emerge from the qualifiers. The 4 provincial winners play each other (say this year Tyrone v Roscommon and Kerry v Meath). The two winners (Roscommon and Meath) progress to the semis whereas the 2 losers play the two teams who emerged from the qualifiers a fortnight later.

I still rather the winner takes it all no-backdoor. However, it is refreshing to see new teams winning through this year all the same.

May it not be due to the fact that the back door has been too successfulhas brought on too many counties ie. more get to play more games in the AI championship and can build on it year to year. I think it's great for the sport on average throughout the country. I also vaguely remember that statistically it's 50/50 ref winning province vs back door

I think it's 21-19 (semi-finalists) in favour of the back door with the last five years showing a heavy back door percentage.

So it would appear that counties that haven't won their province have a slight upper hand. If memory serves me right, Armagh were until recently the most prolifc team in Ulster championships, but this didn't convert to Sams. How would the other counties who got through to finals or won sam without winning the province first feel if the system went back to the old.

Saw this on Twitter -
http://twitpic.com/2aqk1z

Quote from: 45 metres on August 01, 2010, 08:53:47 PM
The results over the weekend say two things. First is that for the third year in a row the All Ireland champion will not be a provincial winner, we will have the sixth back door winner in ten years. Second is that along with the first thing, the provincial championships have now been devalued. Badly. Managers know that winning your province no longer helps you to win the All Ireland.

It can be easy to dismiss the results that mean the four All Ireland semi finalists this year did not even reach their provincial finals as a fluke. But if something like that happens next year, say only one provincial winner gets to the semis, then it will be time to have a serious look at how the football championship is run before provincial titles start becoming worthless and the whole thing becoming a shambles.

I think the provincial championships have only been devalued to the more successful counties, because to them, those titles are only seen now as a stepping stone to Sam.
Then, if they don't win Sam, the provincial title tends to get overlooked.

However, this is not the case with the ''weaker'' counties.
Do you think the Connacht Title means any less to Roscommon tonight, just because Cork beat them today. Nobody outside the county will ever know what that title means to the people of Roscommon.

If Sligo had won it, the same would have applied.

Imagine if Louth hadn't been the victims of daylight robbery in the Leinster Final and had claimed their first title in whatever number of years it was.
Would they feel the Leinster Title was devalued because they didn't win Sam?

This idea of provincial titles being devalued is a reaction from the so-called 'elitist' teams to failing to kick on and win Sam.
But, you know, there are other counties out there to whom winning a provincial title means everything.

Every team has one chance to win their provincial championship.

Every team has one chance to win the All Ireland championship.

Its completely fair and open.

Quote from: Shrewdness on August 01, 2010, 09:49:22 PM

Quote from: 45 metres on August 01, 2010, 08:53:47 PM
The results over the weekend say two things. First is that for the third year in a row the All Ireland champion will not be a provincial winner, we will have the sixth back door winner in ten years. Second is that along with the first thing, the provincial championships have now been devalued. Badly. Managers know that winning your province no longer helps you to win the All Ireland.

It can be easy to dismiss the results that mean the four All Ireland semi finalists this year did not even reach their provincial finals as a fluke. But if something like that happens next year, say only one provincial winner gets to the semis, then it will be time to have a serious look at how the football championship is run before provincial titles start becoming worthless and the whole thing becoming a shambles.

I think the provincial championships have only been devalued to the more successful counties, because to them, those titles are only seen now as a stepping stone to Sam.
Then, if they don't win Sam, the provincial title tends to get overlooked.

However, this is not the case with the ''weaker'' counties.
Do you think the Connacht Title means any less to Roscommon tonight, just because Cork beat them today. Nobody outside the county will ever know what that title means to the people of Roscommon.

If Sligo had won it, the same would have applied.

Imagine if Louth hadn't been the victims of daylight robbery in the Leinster Final and had claimed their first title in whatever number of years it was.
Would they feel the Leinster Title was devalued because they didn't win Sam?

This idea of provincial titles being devalued is a reaction from the so-called 'elitist' teams to failing to kick on and win Sam.
But, you know, there are other counties out there to whom winning a provincial title means everything.

If the main teams aiming for All Ireland success decide that it is not important to win your provincial title then the provincial titles are going to get devalued, like it or not.

To counties like Roscommon and Louth, provincial titles may still hold some value because of how rare they claim them, but that has always been the case.

Before the back door Kerry held the Munster title as a step to the All Ireland but it was the ONLY step to an All Ireland semi final therefore they had to play at their best in the Munster Championship. Now the Munster Championship is a sideshow because it is not of importance to Kerry or Cork. If Limerick, Tipperary, Clare or Waterford now win a Munster title, you won't be able to dismiss the fact that Kerry and Cork have one eye on bigger things if they are capable of winning the All Ireland. Sad, but that is true. If Clare win another Munster title with the present system, it will not hold the same prestige as in 1992.

Senior provincial titles have done nothing for Dublin in the last few years. They done nothing for Tyrone except in 2003. Kerry won the All Ireland last year through the back door. Cork right now are progressing nicely. Time to accept that the provincial senior medal is not what it once was.

As Tyrone would attest themselves in 2005 - the back door system definitely helps a team build momentum. Momemtum is understated in this current format. Having experienced the taste of defeat as master Mickey alluded to yesterday can be a positive experience to draw from if a team is lookin to get a run and get their stars alligned.

Quote from: Puckoon on August 01, 2010, 10:26:33 PM
As Tyrone would attest themselves in 2005 - the back door system definitely helps a team build momentum. Momemtum is understated in this current format. Having experienced the taste of defeat as master Mickey alluded to yesterday can be a positive experience to draw from if a team is lookin to get a run and get their stars alligned.

^^^^^
THIS

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:07:32 PM
I think Mickey's solution was that only 2 teams emerge from the qualifiers. The 4 provincial winners play each other (say this year Tyrone v Roscommon and Kerry v Meath). The two winners (Roscommon and Meath) progress to the semis whereas the 2 losers play the two teams who emerged from the qualifiers a fortnight later.

Not for the first time, Mickey actually borrowed this idea from Big Joe. I'll be surprised if his column next Friday isn't pushing this idea.

The 6 day turnaround for the beaten provincial losers should be looked at and shouldnt be allowed to happen.

With regard to another chance for provincial winners should they lose a quarter final?? No team gets a second chance in the all ireland series. The provincial winners get byes into the quarter finals...i wouldnt change that..

Quote from: AFS on August 01, 2010, 11:21:13 PM

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:07:32 PM
I think Mickey's solution was that only 2 teams emerge from the qualifiers. The 4 provincial winners play each other (say this year Tyrone v Roscommon and Kerry v Meath). The two winners (Roscommon and Meath) progress to the semis whereas the 2 losers play the two teams who emerged from the qualifiers a fortnight later.

Not for the first time, Mickey actually borrowed this idea from Big Joe. I'll be surprised if his column next Friday isn't pushing this idea.

He was pushing it in his column the week after the Ulster final.

Didnt Congress blow out Harte's nonsense by a margin of 9 to 1?

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:07:32 PM
I think Mickey's solution was that only 2 teams emerge from the qualifiers. The 4 provincial winners play each other (say this year Tyrone v Roscommon and Kerry v Meath). The two winners (Roscommon and Meath) progress to the semis whereas the 2 losers play the two teams who emerged from the qualifiers a fortnight later.

Nonsense! Then the two teams who make the semi final will have the same complaints and they'll have to introduce another extra round.

There would be no complaints.

Simple solution is to qualify for the following years Championship. You will need to win your province or come through to the last four in the qualifiers to play in the QF the following year.

So if you get to the All-Ireland final without losing a game and then you lose should you get a second chance  ::) Absolute nonsense, expect better from Harte.

Nope, he never said that.

Dublin County Board were pushing for this too, not just Harte.

Every team gets a second chance except provincial winners, that's the backbone of it.
And the provincial championships are sacrosanct to the GAA hierachy - yet the 5-year stats prove there's no point in the big teams winning theirs now. Tyrone & Kerry would love to regroup now and sort out their quarter-final issues at training this Tuesday but the championship has now effectively by-passed them.

For example - this weekend the 4 qualifiers would've played each other and the 4 provincial winners would've played each other. That means that for teams like Kerry with a 4-week lay off, they have a chance to dust off the cobwebs that their success has penalised them with in the knowledge that if they're not up to the speed of the back door sides they'll not be dumped out. From there on in there should be no real reason for complaint.

QuoteFrom there on in there should be no real reason for complaint.

Of course there would O'Neill. Gaelic Games over the past generation has developed a real nasty inner stain whereby teams no longer accept that they were beaten fairly and squarely. No matter how badly beaten, all teams and managers do is point out that someone else is better treated than them.

These people have developed a 1984-style "we're at war with Eurasia", "we're at war with Eastasia" complex about the qualifiers; one year complaining that it's unfairly weighted to the qualifiers, the next year complaining that the provincial winners have it too easy, one year complaining that too much football is being asked of some teams, the next next year complaining that their team had too long a break.

No matter what set of results they throw up, it's not the way results should be.


I'm not a fan of the qualifier system, and either straight knockout or round-robin would be much more preferable. But people still need to accept that their team has been beaten not by administrators, but by footballers. That's the biggest problem with the qualifiers.

There is nothing wrong with the system, the challenge is now firmly with the provincial winners and how they can adapt their approach to the quarter-finals, Tyrone and Roscommon had two weeks between games, they had momentum and freshness, it was Tyrone who kicked 17 wides and lost composure that's why the lost, MH and JOC are masters of deflection so rather than talk about their team and preparation failures they'd sooner talk about disallowed goals and 2nd chances.

Teams have adapted and learned how to handle the qualifiers, it's now time for the Provincial champions to learn as well.

Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 02, 2010, 10:34:46 AM
There is nothing wrong with the system, the challenge is now firmly with the provincial winners and how they can adapt their approach to the quarter-finals, Tyrone and Roscommon had two weeks between games, they had momentum and freshness, it was Tyrone who kicked 17 wides and lost composure that's why the lost, MH and JOC are masters of deflection so rather than talk about their team and preparation failures they'd sooner talk about disallowed goals and 2nd chances.

Teams have adapted and learned how to handle the qualifiers, it's now time for the Provincial champions to learn as well.

Mickey has been harping on about this for years, when Armagh and Dublin were winning provincials, even when Tyrone were benefitting from it.

Maybe but funny how he brings it up in the immediate aftermath of defeat, do you not think no matter what he personally believes he is now using it as a means of deflection. Not a bad thing as it does keep the focus of Tyrone's failings on Saturday.

Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 02, 2010, 10:47:40 AM
Maybe but funny how he brings it up in the immediate aftermath of defeat, do you not think no matter what he personally believes he is now using it as a means of deflection. Not a bad thing as it does keep the focus of Tyrone's failings on Saturday.

He brought it up a week ago too, and the month before that, and before that. Mickey can be a wee bit repetitive when he has a bugbear. I'd imagine he was asked the question too in the aftermath.

If Tyrone played Roscommon with the winner into the semi then that winner would still have a minimum of a fortnight off with the prospect of playing a team from the qualifiers.
How would this new system be any fairer than what happens already?

Quote from: John Martin on August 02, 2010, 11:08:33 AM
If Tyrone played Roscommon with the winner into the semi then that winner would still have a minimum of a fortnight off with the prospect of playing a team from the qualifiers.
How would this new system be any fairer than what happens already?

Because it guards against having to play straight knockout in the years when you have 3-4 week lay off after the provincial with the possibility of being dumped out due to inactivity. That's the real problem. Also bear in mind that there's sometimes a gap of a month between the provincial semi and the final before that.

I have a deep gra for Tyrone people and Tyrone football but yis are starting to sound like Kerrymen :(

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 11:27:26 AM

Quote from: John Martin on August 02, 2010, 11:08:33 AM
If Tyrone played Roscommon with the winner into the semi then that winner would still have a minimum of a fortnight off with the prospect of playing a team from the qualifiers.
How would this new system be any fairer than what happens already?

Because it guards against having to play straight knockout in the years when you have 3-4 week lay off after the provincial with the possibility of being dumped out due to inactivity. That's the real problem. Also bear in mind that there's sometimes a gap of a month between the provincial semi and the final before that.

There would still be a team playing after a 3 week break.

Weekend 1- Provincial winners play each other and 4 qualifiers play to get down to 2.

Weekend 2- 2 qualifiers play against the 2 losers form the provincial games. (Only 1 week to regroup after that loss so there may be complaints there)

Weekend 3- 1st semi final.

Weekend 4- 2nd semi final. (3 weeks after a provincial winner has last played, Where is their backdoor?)

This system also fails to take into account Hurling fixtures which mean some more Saturday games in Croke Park. The current system is not perfect but you aren't really fixing any problems with this alternative.

Why do semi-finals need to be played on separate weekends? A 7:30pm semi-final at Croker under lights if needed would be a brilliant occasion.

Also, with the way attendances are and the half empty stands, it'd be worth looking at playing most rounds before the semis away from Croker, freeing it up for hurling fixtures. There are some wonderful grounds around the country capable of hosting All-Ireland quarters/round 4 games.

Quote from: John Martin on August 02, 2010, 12:48:54 PM
Weekend 4- 2nd semi final. (3 weeks after a provincial winner has last played, Where is their backdoor?)

I think the point here is as much about the provincial winners a) being allowed a one-game loss like all the other teams, and b) alternatively, should they win the provincial quarter-final, then they're at the same point as they would have been at, pre-Qualifiers, i.e., with the introduction of the Qualifiers an extra stage needs to be negotiated by the prov champs but without the luxury of a defeat; this proposal would give some compensation for that inequity.

(At the risk of sounding like a Kerry man  ;) )

What happened the provincial winners this weekend is explainable and I don't think the system is to blame.

Tyrone beat themselves with all the aides, many of them ridiculous (no disrespect to Dublin who also played very well). I think they've fcuked away an All Ireland due to one bad days shooting.

Kerry were a sitting duck without Galvin and O'Sé (and all the other players lost from last year alone). They would not have beaten any of the qualifiers bar possibly Cork.

Roscommon didn't really think they were going to win. The way their supporters applauded them off the field for capitulating in a game they could easily have won tells its own tale. They would have got a huge hiding off Dublin, Kildare or Down.

Meath were slightly fortunate to win Leinster (Louth aside, some of the goals against Dublin were fortunate) and once they met a team who had a decent defence they were in trouble. Meath's defence is simply terrible and their midfield disappears for long spells.

The qualifiers does let teams address their weaknesses and rebuild and in 3 of the 4 teams cases this has been done very well (Cork still don't have a clue but at the same time are hard to beat). It should also provide lots of evidence to the provincial winners of what they are doing and in time provincial winners will use this to their advantage.

What is clear though is that you do not want to lose a provincial final under this system. I think if you get to a provincial final you've obviously won a game or two so you'd deserve more than 6 days to get yourself up for a crack at the AI.

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 12:56:29 PM
Why do semi-finals need to be played on separate weekends? A 7:30pm semi-final at Croker under lights if needed would be a brilliant occasion.

Are you serious? They would both need to be played at the same time on the same day of the week or Mickey would be calling foul (when Tyrone lose...). Even then, God forbid that a qualifier replay would be played under lights in an earlier round and the winner subsequently meet Tyrone with that "unfair advantage" under their belts...

For all his undoubted success, Mickey is an awful whinge sometimes. Only outdone by Jack O'C with his added chip  ::)

Am i missing something?
Has the qualifier system changed this year to that of the past 9 years?
Why all of a sudden is there a cry for change?
Is it because the mighty have fallen this year?
There has been talk of teams building up a head of steam through the qualifiers.
In the past teams complained about having to play week in week out as it was too much for amateur players.
Hard to keep everyone happy.

This shíte does my head in. whether it be Dublin complaining or Tyrone or whoever.

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win their provincial title.

And subsequently, when they are finished with the provincial championship...

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland.

Completely fair, completely open. The suggestions going round to try and make things easier for provincial winners and provincial runners-up are just pure nonsense.

The first time ever all the provincial finalists are out by the SF stage, and suddenly the system is wrong  ::)
Balls

Quote from: Hound on August 02, 2010, 05:13:03 PM
This shíte does my head in. whether it be Dublin complaining or Tyrone or whoever.

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win their provincial title.

And subsequently, when they are finished with the provincial championship...

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland.

Completely fair, completely open. The suggestions going round to try and make things easier for provincial winners and provincial runners-up are just pure nonsense.

The first time ever all the provincial finalists are out by the SF stage, and suddenly the system is wrong  ::)
Balls

Totally agree Hound!!!

I think the most frightening result of the weekend is the detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers. It's like a movie where Superman finds common ground with Lex Luthor because the Joker has come over from Gotham City to take over Metropolis. Really lads - what are you like?

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
Saw this on Twitter -
http://twitpic.com/2aqk1z

Messing aside, these are interesting stats. Don't forget, that one Provincial finalist isn't like another. Tyrone or Kerry going down this year isn't like Westmeath losing in 2004 or Sligo in 2007, for instance. We shouldn't give them equal weighing.

This looking at the system up and down is typical of our mindset in Ireland. Rather than look at our own failings and address them, we look at the system to see what bastard has one up on us.

It was the same with Galway in the hurling twenty years ago, when they had a bye to the All-Ireland semis. Did the lack of games help them or hinder them? Galway haven't won any hurling titles since that ended - is that because they don't get the bye to the semi anymore, or because their teams aren't good enough? Who knows?

The search for "fairness" is fool's gold. Bring back the right Championship, where you lived or died after every game. Better all round. At least you knew where you bloody stood.

Quote from: eyeswideopen on August 02, 2010, 05:21:47 PM

Quote from: Hound on August 02, 2010, 05:13:03 PM
This shíte does my head in. whether it be Dublin complaining or Tyrone or whoever.

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win their provincial title.

And subsequently, when they are finished with the provincial championship...

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland.

Completely fair, completely open. The suggestions going round to try and make things easier for provincial winners and provincial runners-up are just pure nonsense.

The first time ever all the provincial finalists are out by the SF stage, and suddenly the system is wrong  ::)
Balls

Totally agree Hound!!!

So do I.

By the way Magpie Seanie ....how did you figure we could have easily beaten Cork yesterday?

Personally I'd go even further and scrap the provincial system. Have always said that. It makes no sense. In one province you can play 2 games and arrive at the quarter final stage. In another it could take 4 games with no replays. That's just mixed up. Imagine in the World Cup of soccer or rugby having one group of 12, one of 9, one of 6 and one of 5. Tradition my arse.

Never mind soccer or that effin rugby. We'll do things our way.
You can not scrap the Provincials.... it gives a lot of teams something to aim for.
Also there was some great excitement in this years Provincial Championships with us ,Sligo, Louth,Limerick, the Cork/Kerry games, Monaghan etc.
Much better than a dry old system with 26+ teams not having a hope of winning it.

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 06:28:10 PM
Personally I'd go even further and scrap the provincial system. Have always said that. It makes no sense. In one province you can play 2 games and arrive at the quarter final stage. In another it could take 4 games with no replays. That's just mixed up. Imagine in the World Cup of soccer or rugby having one group of 12, one of 9, one of 6 and one of 5. Tradition my arse.

Then 80% of the counties would have nothing to play for.
I think the present system has been great for football.
It needs some tweaking though.

Quote from: Jinxy on August 02, 2010, 06:55:51 PM

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 06:28:10 PM
Personally I'd go even further and scrap the provincial system. Have always said that. It makes no sense. In one province you can play 2 games and arrive at the quarter final stage. In another it could take 4 games with no replays. That's just mixed up. Imagine in the World Cup of soccer or rugby having one group of 12, one of 9, one of 6 and one of 5. Tradition my arse.

Then 80% of the counties would have nothing to play for.
I think the present system has been great for football.
It needs some tweaking though.

In my view, the system is pretty perfect, the only tweaking I'd do would be to make it 8 counties per "provincial" championship, but I suppose there'd be war over who got moved.

I'd go even further. See Leinster and Connaught, I think they should only be allowed 1 team in the quarters. Neither of those have won or even appeared in an All-Ireland final for nearly a decade. They're just filling spaces of those who can do something. Munster and Ulster should be guaranteed 3 quarter final places given their recent record. If Leinster make an All-Ireland final this year, increase that to two and so on.

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 07:08:40 PM
I'd go even further. See Leinster and Connaught, I think they should only be allowed 1 team in the quarters. Neither of those have won or even appeared in an All-Ireland final for nearly a decade. They're just filling spaces of those who can do something. Munster and Ulster should be guaranteed 3 quarter final places given their recent record. If Leinster make an All-Ireland final this year, increase that to two and so on.

But every province is guaranteed one, and only one, place in the QF. The rest get there on merit regardless of province, albeit there can be some element of "luck of the draw"

Sorry forgot about Mayo. But that's even worse.

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 02, 2010, 01:02:47 PM
What happened the provincial winners this weekend is explainable and I don't think the system is to blame.

Tyrone beat themselves with all the aides, many of them ridiculous (no disrespect to Dublin who also played very well). I think they've fcuked away an All Ireland due to one bad days shooting.

Kerry were a sitting duck without Galvin and O'Sé (and all the other players lost from last year alone). They would not have beaten any of the qualifiers bar possibly Cork.

Roscommon didn't really think they were going to win. The way their supporters applauded them off the field for capitulating in a game they could easily have won tells its own tale. They would have got a huge hiding off Dublin, Kildare or Down.

Meath were slightly fortunate to win Leinster (Louth aside, some of the goals against Dublin were fortunate) and once they met a team who had a decent defence they were in trouble. Meath's defence is simply terrible and their midfield disappears for long spells.

The qualifiers does let teams address their weaknesses and rebuild and in 3 of the 4 teams cases this has been done very well (Cork still don't have a clue but at the same time are hard to beat). It should also provide lots of evidence to the provincial winners of what they are doing and in time provincial winners will use this to their advantage.

What is clear though is that you do not want to lose a provincial final under this system. I think if you get to a provincial final you've obviously won a game or two so you'd deserve more than 6 days to get yourself up for a crack at the AI.

Seanie, we didn't applaud Ros off the field for capitulating in a game they could have won, as you say.

The applause was  for a brave effort in a game that they were never likely to win, plus our overall appreciation for their performances this summer.
I know this because i was one of the people there applauding them.

It wasn't just applause for yesterday.

As for saying that they would have been hammered by Dublin, Kildare or Down, we'll have to take your word for it.   

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 07:08:40 PM
I'd go even further. See Leinster and Connaught, I think they should only be allowed 1 team in the quarters. Neither of those have won or even appeared in an All-Ireland final for nearly a decade. They're just filling spaces of those who can do something. Munster and Ulster should be guaranteed 3 quarter final places given their recent record. If Leinster make an All-Ireland final this year, increase that to two and so on.

;D ;D ;D
Why not let Tyrone play Kerry, the winners get to the final while the losers play a Semi Final against whoever comes through from the other 32 Counties( NY and London included).
Or maybe take a leaf from Rugby( as you seem to think they have a better system) and abolish Connacht altogether ::)

Quote from: Hound on August 02, 2010, 07:10:36 PM

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 07:08:40 PM
I'd go even further. See Leinster and Connaught, I think they should only be allowed 1 team in the quarters. Neither of those have won or even appeared in an All-Ireland final for nearly a decade. They're just filling spaces of those who can do something. Munster and Ulster should be guaranteed 3 quarter final places given their recent record. If Leinster make an All-Ireland final this year, increase that to two and so on.

But every province is guaranteed one, and only one, place in the QF. The rest get there on merit regardless of province, albeit there can be some element of "luck of the draw"

In that case if a Leinster side makes it through to the quarters through the back door, they forfeit their place until a Leinster side actually makes the final. Same for the West.

It would also encourage provincial togetherness like us.

Sure we're all great pals in the east.
If a Leinster team wins, we all win.
We're like a better-looking, more sophisticated version of Ulster.

Quote from: ONeill on August 02, 2010, 06:28:10 PM
Personally I'd go even further and scrap the provincial system.

Aye. 'Cos everyone loves travelling 200 miles round trip to an away fixture in the first round of the qualifiers.  :-X


Seriously O'Neill.... that statement was not one of your brighter moments!

Sure what's 200 miles? Just the same as the league.

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 02, 2010, 12:00:05 PM
I have a deep gra for Tyrone people and Tyrone football but yis are starting to sound like Kerrymen :(

where are we complaining ?

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 02, 2010, 06:00:48 PM
I think the most frightening result of the weekend is the detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers. It's like a movie where Superman finds common ground with Lex Luthor because the Joker has come over from Gotham City to take over Metropolis. Really lads - what are you like?

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
Saw this on Twitter -
http://twitpic.com/2aqk1z

Messing aside, these are interesting stats. Don't forget, that one Provincial finalist isn't like another. Tyrone or Kerry going down this year isn't like Westmeath losing in 2004 or Sligo in 2007, for instance. We shouldn't give them equal weighing.

This looking at the system up and down is typical of our mindset in Ireland. Rather than look at our own failings and address them, we look at the system to see what b**tard has one up on us.

It was the same with Galway in the hurling twenty years ago, when they had a bye to the All-Ireland semis. Did the lack of games help them or hinder them? Galway haven't won any hurling titles since that ended - is that because they don't get the bye to the semi anymore, or because their teams aren't good enough? Who knows?

The search for "fairness" is fool's gold. Bring back the right Championship, where you lived or died after every game. Better all round. At least you knew where you bloody stood.

same question to you...where are we complaining ?

No kerry poster has said anything about the system on this thread. Dont recall seeing anything on other threads either. The only complaints JOC had was in relation to the disallowed goal (justified) and the CCCC (fully justified)

..and, while we are on the CCCC....has any incident been reviewed by them since T'OSe ?

Just on a point of order, MS, there was no disallowed goal. The whistle went well before the ball was kicked into the net. I agree with Kerry's sense of grievance about the CCCC and its Sunday game board of directors, though.

Pack of feckin whingers - even McGeeney - http://www.setanta.com/asia/Articles/2010/08/02/OBrien-wants-championship-changed/gnid-73915/

Quote from: Rossfan on August 02, 2010, 06:02:53 PM

Quote from: eyeswideopen on August 02, 2010, 05:21:47 PM

Quote from: Hound on August 02, 2010, 05:13:03 PM
This shíte does my head in. whether it be Dublin complaining or Tyrone or whoever.

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win their provincial title.

And subsequently, when they are finished with the provincial championship...

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland.

Completely fair, completely open. The suggestions going round to try and make things easier for provincial winners and provincial runners-up are just pure nonsense.

The first time ever all the provincial finalists are out by the SF stage, and suddenly the system is wrong  ::)
Balls

Totally agree Hound!!!

So do I.

By the way Magpie Seanie ....how did you figure we could have easily beaten Cork yesterday?

Ye could have beaten them but I don't think the players believed they could win themselves. That's all I'm saying. Cork were there for the taking and ye let them off the hook. Couldn't understand taking off some of your better players when the game was far from over either.

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 03, 2010, 10:56:42 AM

Quote from: Rossfan on August 02, 2010, 06:02:53 PM

Quote from: eyeswideopen on August 02, 2010, 05:21:47 PM

Quote from: Hound on August 02, 2010, 05:13:03 PM
This shíte does my head in. whether it be Dublin complaining or Tyrone or whoever.

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win their provincial title.

And subsequently, when they are finished with the provincial championship...

Every team has ONE CHANCE to win the All Ireland.

Completely fair, completely open. The suggestions going round to try and make things easier for provincial winners and provincial runners-up are just pure nonsense.

The first time ever all the provincial finalists are out by the SF stage, and suddenly the system is wrong  ::)
Balls

Totally agree Hound!!!

So do I.

By the way Magpie Seanie ....how did you figure we could have easily beaten Cork yesterday?

Ye could have beaten them but I don't think the players believed they could win themselves. That's all I'm saying. Cork were there for the taking and ye let them off the hook. Couldn't understand taking off some of your better players when the game was far from over either.

Ross just could'nt mantain the level of pressure they had to apply for the first 45 min Seanie. Just didnt have the physical conditioning to do it for 70min. Agree with you re the substitutions. Management obviously wanted to get fresh legs on the field in key positions but it destabilised the team.

8 provincial dungbags!!!

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 02, 2010, 09:47:47 PM

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 02, 2010, 06:00:48 PM
I think the most frightening result of the weekend is the detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers. It's like a movie where Superman finds common ground with Lex Luthor because the Joker has come over from Gotham City to take over Metropolis. Really lads - what are you like?

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
Saw this on Twitter -
http://twitpic.com/2aqk1z

Messing aside, these are interesting stats. Don't forget, that one Provincial finalist isn't like another. Tyrone or Kerry going down this year isn't like Westmeath losing in 2004 or Sligo in 2007, for instance. We shouldn't give them equal weighing.

This looking at the system up and down is typical of our mindset in Ireland. Rather than look at our own failings and address them, we look at the system to see what b**tard has one up on us.

It was the same with Galway in the hurling twenty years ago, when they had a bye to the All-Ireland semis. Did the lack of games help them or hinder them? Galway haven't won any hurling titles since that ended - is that because they don't get the bye to the semi anymore, or because their teams aren't good enough? Who knows?

The search for "fairness" is fool's gold. Bring back the right Championship, where you lived or died after every game. Better all round. At least you knew where you bloody stood.

same question to you...where are we complaining ?

No kerry poster has said anything about the system on this thread. Dont recall seeing anything on other threads either. The only complaints JOC had was in relation to the disallowed goal (justified) and the CCCC (fully justified)

..and, while we are on the CCCC....has any incident been reviewed by them since T'OSe ?

By the system I mean events outside the field of play. The CCCC is part of the system Mike and you boys have been golly having a go at that.

I was on the board on Saturday night, and I would swear on seven bibles that a Kerry poster had a good rant for himself about how the CCCC cheated Kerry out of the Championship. I've looked for the quote since but I can't find it. This leads me to two conclusions.

Either whoever posted it had a change of heart and deleted it later, or else I hallucinated the post in the first place. I'd be more inclined to believe the first hypothesis, but as the reigning Mayor of Roscommon was in Dublin for the weekend and I may have passively inhaled, thus giving credence to the second possibility.  ::)

In the Minor Championship only the beaten province finalist's are allowed a second chance, imagine if that was the same of the senior championship this year.. Kildare,Down,Dublin,cork would be out now

IMO the four province champions next year should get a home game for the quarter final tie's

We're all forgetting - it isn't the draw/qualifier system thats caused the provincial finalists to lose out.

It was the whistles on the hill that caused Tyrones demise
It was the CCCC that caused Kerrys Demise

etc, etc, etc

IolarCoisCuain

This is your exact quote

"detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers"

you made no mention of the CCCC. You stated quite clearly that Kerry are complaining about the qualifiers.


As for the CCCC, we are fully entitled to be incensed about what has happened. I wouldnt say that it was the reason we lost but it was a big factor. Regardless of that it is the apparent singling out of Kerry players that grates.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 03, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
IolarCoisCuain

This is your exact quote

"detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers"

you made no mention of the CCCC. You stated quite clearly that Kerry are complaining about the qualifiers.


As for the CCCC, we are fully entitled to be incensed about what has happened. I wouldnt say that it was the reason we lost but it was a big factor. Regardless of that it is the apparent singling out of Kerry players that grates.

Are Sean Walsh and Sean Kelly not bitching about the qualifiers here Mike?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/walsh-makes-provincial-plea-126845.html

Nearly sure I heard Jack O'Connor giving out all day on the radio today as well. But as I said earlier, I may be hearing voices.

But what do you think yourself Mike? Do you think the qualifiers are unfair? If it was up to me, I'd bring back the straight knock out system. Good for one hundred years, good for another hundred. Straight-forward, easy to understand, you lived or you died. 1 or 0. How about you? What do you think?

Quote..and, while we are on the CCCC....has any incident been reviewed by them since T'OSe ?

Not a f**king peep Mikey, a f**king joke the whole CCCC at this stage, you nearly start to be paranoid that Cooney's wants to present one cup to a Cork captain this year.

Quote from: Dinny Breen on August 02, 2010, 10:47:40 AM
Maybe but funny how he brings it up in the immediate aftermath of defeat, do you not think no matter what he personally believes he is now using it as a means of deflection. Not a bad thing as it does keep the focus of Tyrone's failings on Saturday.

MICKEY KEEPS A LOT OF IRONS IN THE FIRE

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 03, 2010, 10:17:51 PM

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 03, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
IolarCoisCuain

This is your exact quote

"detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers"

you made no mention of the CCCC. You stated quite clearly that Kerry are complaining about the qualifiers.


As for the CCCC, we are fully entitled to be incensed about what has happened. I wouldnt say that it was the reason we lost but it was a big factor. Regardless of that it is the apparent singling out of Kerry players that grates.

Are Sean Walsh and Sean Kelly not bitching about the qualifiers here Mike?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/walsh-makes-provincial-plea-126845.html

Nearly sure I heard Jack O'Connor giving out all day on the radio today as well. But as I said earlier, I may be hearing voices.

But what do you think yourself Mike? Do you think the qualifiers are unfair? If it was up to me, I'd bring back the straight knock out system. Good for one hundred years, good for another hundred. Straight-forward, easy to understand, you lived or you died. 1 or 0. How about you? What do you think?

ffs, did youi actually read the article. Sean Walsh was defending the current set up. The article did say that Walsh "
agrees that the disadvantage facing provincial champions must be tackled". Thats not him advocating changes that is him defending the current system but conceding that there are problems. You completely misrepresented his position and placed him on the opposite side of the argument.

As for Sean Kelly, yes he did say there were issues but he spoke for the beaten provincila finalists as well as the provincial winners. It was hardly a whinge on befalf of kerry. Also, Sean Kelly is a past president and Sean Walsh was obviously speaking in his capacity as Munster Chairman. To class it as kerrymen whinging is a gross misrepresentation

I would also point out that the article is dated today which is after you had your pop at us. maybe you are a fortune teller and can forecast whinging  ::). As for JOC, I'm in the US so can't comment, I'll have to take your word for it.

I had no problem with the old system and I have no complaints about the present one either. I can see the argument for doing something about provincial losers and winners but I think people should put a lot of thought into it to predict what future "disadvantages" might manifest themselves before jumping in.

Quote from: Kerry Mike on August 03, 2010, 10:48:44 PM

Quote..and, while we are on the CCCC....has any incident been reviewed by them since T'OSe ?

Not a f**king peep Mikey, a f**king joke the whole CCCC at this stage, you nearly start to be paranoid that Cooney's wants to present one cup to a Cork captain this year.

But nobody has cleaned a man out of it with an elbow to the head after the ball has gone either.

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 04, 2010, 05:08:03 AM

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 03, 2010, 10:17:51 PM

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 03, 2010, 08:10:33 PM
IolarCoisCuain

This is your exact quote

"detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers"

you made no mention of the CCCC. You stated quite clearly that Kerry are complaining about the qualifiers.


As for the CCCC, we are fully entitled to be incensed about what has happened. I wouldnt say that it was the reason we lost but it was a big factor. Regardless of that it is the apparent singling out of Kerry players that grates.

Are Sean Walsh and Sean Kelly not bitching about the qualifiers here Mike?

http://www.irishexaminer.com/sport/gaa/walsh-makes-provincial-plea-126845.html

Nearly sure I heard Jack O'Connor giving out all day on the radio today as well. But as I said earlier, I may be hearing voices.

But what do you think yourself Mike? Do you think the qualifiers are unfair? If it was up to me, I'd bring back the straight knock out system. Good for one hundred years, good for another hundred. Straight-forward, easy to understand, you lived or you died. 1 or 0. How about you? What do you think?

ffs, did youi actually read the article. Sean Walsh was defending the current set up. The article did say that Walsh "
agrees that the disadvantage facing provincial champions must be tackled". Thats not him advocating changes that is him defending the current system but conceding that there are problems. You completely misrepresented his position and placed him on the opposite side of the argument.

As for Sean Kelly, yes he did say there were issues but he spoke for the beaten provincila finalists as well as the provincial winners. It was hardly a whinge on befalf of kerry. Also, Sean Kelly is a past president and Sean Walsh was obviously speaking in his capacity as Munster Chairman. To class it as kerrymen whinging is a gross misrepresentation

I would also point out that the article is dated today which is after you had your pop at us. maybe you are a fortune teller and can forecast whinging  ::). As for JOC, I'm in the US so can't comment, I'll have to take your word for it.

I had no problem with the old system and I have no complaints about the present one either. I can see the argument for doing something about provincial losers and winners but I think people should put a lot of thought into it to predict what future "disadvantages" might manifest themselves before jumping in.

Bejob Mike it turns out I am a fortune teller. Here's Jack letting it all out in today's Indo: http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/oconnor-hits-out-at-inequality-of-provincial-system-2282842.html

Quote
"I am not just saying this after we have been beaten: I have said this consistently, that provincial championships will have to be changed or provincial winners will have to get a second shot at it," O'Connor said yesterday.

I don't think last year's Munster Champions got a second shot at it. Maybe I'm imaging that too.

QuoteBut nobody has cleaned a man out of it with an elbow to the head after the ball has gone either.

Timmy you are some langer. there has been no head butts or grabbing fellows by the throat either as the CCCC has not seen anything or maybe has been told not to see anything by The Sunday Game/Christy Cooney, and that is only 2 of the Cork offences to date.

Maybe it's time to close the back door on teams who can't win their provincial games.

Quote from: Kerry Mike on August 04, 2010, 09:59:51 PM

QuoteBut nobody has cleaned a man out of it with an elbow to the head after the ball has gone either.

Timmy you are some langer. there has been no head butts or grabbing fellows by the throat either as the CCCC has not seen anything or maybe has been told not to see anything by The Sunday Game/Christy Cooney, and that is only 2 of the Cork offences to date.

As the song says: "Dry your eyes mate."


I have very little time for Darragh O'Sé's "Yerra, kerry are great" column in the times but even he admits:

"For that reason there isn't a whole pile of sympathy for Kerry out there. Nobody is shedding tears about us. And rightly so. .....
And you can't expect sympathy. Saturday was a day that was going to come. It was all going to catch up on us.

We have to be manly, dust ourselves down, stand up and accept it."

GAA Director General Padraic Duffy has said the GAA will not consider changing the rules.

An article in the Irish Times today. He also pointed out that this was the first time in 10 years that the Munster champion did not make the semi-finals.

If provincial winners are so worried about lack of match practice, then there is absolutely nobody stopping them organising a challenge game against each other. 

Surely if I put forward a motion at my clubs agm and it is passed and subsequently makes it through to congress, is it not for congress to decide on the structure of the championship and not Mr Padraic Duffy.

Secondly Duffy states that the qualifiers have nothing to do with second chances, it was brought in so that every team would get more than one game in the championship. By that logic, only the first round/first game  losers should play in qualifiers.

This Duffy lad had the same pontificating attitude to the hand pass rule earlier on. I dont ever recall Liam Mulvihill making out that he was the controller of all things GAA.

He is right about one thing, the provincial structure makes it impossible to have an equitable championship and tagging the qualifiers on top of this system just makes it worse.

Abandon the qualifiers, play the provincial championships as stand alone competitions, award the eight provincial finalists with top seeding in an open draw for the all ireland and run it off as a straight knockout competition.

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Surely if I put forward a motion at my clubs agm and it is passed and subsequently makes it through to congress, is it not for congress to decide on the structure of the championship and not Mr Padraic Duffy.

Secondly Duffy states that the qualifiers have nothing to do with second chances, it was brought in so that every team would get more than one game in the championship. By that logic, only the first round/first game  losers should play in qualifiers.

This Duffy lad had the same pontificating attitude to the hand pass rule earlier on. I dont ever recall Liam Mulvihill making out that he was the controller of all things GAA.

He is right about one thing, the provincial structure makes it impossible to have an equitable championship and tagging the qualifiers on top of this system just makes it worse.

Abandon the qualifiers, play the provincial championships as stand alone competitions, award the eight provincial finalists with top seeding in an open draw for the all ireland and run it off as a straight knockout competition.

I think they just passed a rule that they won't look at any more rule changes for another 5 years. Maybe he counts format as a rule.

A good idea would be to play all provincial football finals on the same weekend (2 Saturday/2 Sunday) with round 4 of the qualifiers 13/14 days later and then quarters the week after. I know the provincial councils (particularly Connacht and Munster) will baulk at the idea of a Saturday provincial final but the current system is a bit of a mess in terms of gaps for provincial winners/finalists.

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Surely if I put forward a motion at my clubs agm and it is passed and subsequently makes it through to congress, is it not for congress to decide on the structure of the championship and not Mr Padraic Duffy.

Secondly Duffy states that the qualifiers have nothing to do with second chances, it was brought in so that every team would get more than one game in the championship. By that logic, only the first round/first game  losers should play in qualifiers.

This Duffy lad had the same pontificating attitude to the hand pass rule earlier on. I dont ever recall Liam Mulvihill making out that he was the controller of all things GAA.

Spot on there Fearglasmor. Duffy reminds me more and more of his famous near-namesake and fellow Monaghan native, the tin-pot general from the thirties. He seems to view himself as the Ayatollah of the GAA with his ex-cathedra pronouncements and edicts. He doesn't even adopt the pretence of respect for the democratic system we're supposed to be operating.

Mind you, he probably doesn't need to, given the ease with which the executive seems to be able to railroad any proposal it wants through Congress. For instance, I don't know anyone who believes more than 20% of ordinary GAA members were in favour of putting the GPA in charge of player welfare (remember they exclude 95% of players from their membership) or of diverting over €1 million annually to the GPA. This without even the hint of a plan for what they were going to do with it or an explanation from the executive of where this money was going to be taken from. We still don't know. Yet Congress voted to do that with our money and it's done and we're still wondering how it happened.

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Abandon the qualifiers, play the provincial championships as stand alone competitions, award the eight provincial finalists with top seeding in an open draw for the all ireland and run it off as a straight knockout competition.

That's pretty much exactly what the current system is for chrisakes!!

The provincial championships ARE stand alone competitions.

The provincial finalists do get seeded in the draws in the All Ireland championships (finalists get a bye to R4 and are seeded in that round, winners get a bye all the way to the QF and get seeded in that draw).

The All Ireland championship is straight knockout (as are the separate provincial championships).

Quote from: Hardy on August 05, 2010, 11:10:19 AM

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Surely if I put forward a motion at my clubs agm and it is passed and subsequently makes it through to congress, is it not for congress to decide on the structure of the championship and not Mr Padraic Duffy.

Secondly Duffy states that the qualifiers have nothing to do with second chances, it was brought in so that every team would get more than one game in the championship. By that logic, only the first round/first game  losers should play in qualifiers.

This Duffy lad had the same pontificating attitude to the hand pass rule earlier on. I dont ever recall Liam Mulvihill making out that he was the controller of all things GAA.

Spot on there Fearglasmor. Duffy reminds me more and more of his famous near-namesake and fellow Monaghan native, the tin-pot general from the thirties. He seems to view himself as the Ayatollah of the GAA with his ex-cathedra pronouncements and edicts. He doesn't even adopt the pretence of respect for the democratic system we're supposed to be operating.

Mind you, he probably doesn't need to, given the ease with which the executive seems to be able to railroad any proposal it wants through Congress. For instance, I don't know anyone who believes more than 20% of ordinary GAA members were in favour of putting the GPA in charge of player welfare (remember they exclude 95% of players from their membership) or of diverting over €1 million annually to the GPA. This without even the hint of a plan for what they were going to do with it or an explanation from the executive of where this money was going to be taken from. We still don't know. Yet Congress voted to do that with our money and it's done and we're still wondering how it happened.

A brilliant post Hardy and one that succintly explains how subverted democracy in the GAA has become. These guys have such disregard for the "grassroots members" (that they so frequently and sickeningly pay lip service to) that they don't even pretend that it matters what those people think. GAA politics is a mutual back scratching society and perish the thought than anyone invade the inner circle.

Quote from: Hound on August 05, 2010, 11:39:50 AM

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Abandon the qualifiers, play the provincial championships as stand alone competitions, award the eight provincial finalists with top seeding in an open draw for the all ireland and run it off as a straight knockout competition.

That's pretty much exactly what the current system is for chrisakes!!

The provincial championships ARE stand alone competitions.

The provincial finalists do get seeded in the draws in the All Ireland championships (finalists get a bye to R4 and are seeded in that round, winners get a bye all the way to the QF and get seeded in that draw).

The All Ireland championship is straight knockout (as are the separate provincial championships).

Its actually very different. There is no qualifier. All teams enter the all ireland and so the q/finalists s/finalists finalists will have played the same number of games. The all ireland is run after the provincial championships so fixtures can be planned properly and counties know exactly what is in front of them. What is there now is a mess resulting from putting a sticky plaster solution in place rather than tackling the fundamental cause of the inequity.

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 12:56:12 PM

Quote from: Hound on August 05, 2010, 11:39:50 AM

Quote from: fearglasmor on August 05, 2010, 09:19:01 AM
Abandon the qualifiers, play the provincial championships as stand alone competitions, award the eight provincial finalists with top seeding in an open draw for the all ireland and run it off as a straight knockout competition.

That's pretty much exactly what the current system is for chrisakes!!

The provincial championships ARE stand alone competitions.

The provincial finalists do get seeded in the draws in the All Ireland championships (finalists get a bye to R4 and are seeded in that round, winners get a bye all the way to the QF and get seeded in that draw).

The All Ireland championship is straight knockout (as are the separate provincial championships).

Its actually very different. There is no qualifier. All teams enter the all ireland and so the q/finalists s/finalists finalists will have played the same number of games. The all ireland is run after the provincial championships so fixtures can be planned properly and counties know exactly what is in front of them. What is there now is a mess resulting from putting a sticky plaster solution in place rather than tackling the fundamental cause of the inequity.

I dunno how you can say that's "very" different!!

The only difference is that teams get no benefit for progessing in their province in your idea. The counties who are after battling all the way through to win their provinical title enter the first round of the All Ireland series instead of the quarter-finals.  I wouldnt mind that, but no benefit for winning your province is an interesting way of balancing what you call an inequity.

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 05, 2010, 10:30:15 AM
A good idea would be to play all provincial football finals on the same weekend (2 Saturday/2 Sunday) with round 4 of the qualifiers 13/14 days later and then quarters the week after. I know the provincial councils (particularly Connacht and Munster) will baulk at the idea of a Saturday provincial final but the current system is a bit of a mess in terms of gaps for provincial winners/finalists.

Timing needs to be a bit more balanced alright.
Kildare lay 6 weekends in a row then get a FOUR week break between Quarter and Semi. They've also put entire Club Championships on hold thill County are out of race for Sam.
(I see P Duffy isnt entitled to speak now !!!! - anyway Micky Harte's nonsense of a round between Provincial winners was bet out the Congress  gate 9 to 1 ?)

Quote from: Hound on August 05, 2010, 08:28:42 AM
If provincial winners are so worried about lack of match practice, then there is absolutely nobody stopping them organising a challenge game against each other.

Do you really believe that? Pure nonsense, there's no comparison between a 'real' game and a challenge game; you can't build momentum with friendlies.

This may be the first time that none of the Provincial finalists have made it through to the semis, but it's far from a fluke, it's an inevitability as counties become more accustomed to exploiting the Qualifiers. As I said away back I wouldn't be surprised if Gilroy (and Whelan) actually engineered a loss in the Leinster, and their plan came off, albeit with a few more goals conceded than they might have liked (against Meath). There's no coincidence at play here - Dublin's best run for a long time (and it isn't over yet) came via a different route, the Qualifying route.

No matter how it's spun, and by whom, it's nothing short of an indictment of the current set-up that a) no Provincial pairings are in the last four, and b) that the losing finalists are asked to turn around in a ridiculous six days. Do the powers that be really mean to convey that they're incapable of thinking laterally and intelligently enough to accommodate provinces of different sizes without the really amateurish gaps and squeezes in the fixtures? Not to mention the inequity of the Provincial winners having no luxury of a loss like the rest of the teams.

Duffy was out of order, it's not up to him to dictate how things will be. If Dublin and Tyrone can get another motion forward, with the backing of Kerry, Meath and a few others this time, there'll be little he can do stop it.

We're the fecking laughing stock: "you mean to say that not one of the four best pairings in the country (as per the Provincials) can make it through to the semis because they were beaten by teams who had lost earlier than they did?" Yep, that's about the sorry height of it.

Quote from: timmykelleher on August 04, 2010, 11:24:07 PM

Quote from: Kerry Mike on August 04, 2010, 09:59:51 PM

QuoteBut nobody has cleaned a man out of it with an elbow to the head after the ball has gone either.

Timmy you are some langer. there has been no head butts or grabbing fellows by the throat either as the CCCC has not seen anything or maybe has been told not to see anything by The Sunday Game/Christy Cooney, and that is only 2 of the Cork offences to date.

As the song says: "Dry your eyes mate."


I have very little time for Darragh O'Sé's "Yerra, kerry are great" column in the times but even he admits:

"For that reason there isn't a whole pile of sympathy for Kerry out there. Nobody is shedding tears about us. And rightly so. .....
And you can't expect sympathy. Saturday was a day that was going to come. It was all going to catch up on us.

We have to be manly, dust ourselves down, stand up and accept it."

The langers  wouldn't know much about that .
Well, we'll see what ye are made of now. Clear favourites now so no excuse for not winning it this year.

Quote
"I am not just saying this after we have been beaten: I have said this consistently, that provincial championships will have to be changed or provincial winners will have to get a second shot at it," O'Connor said yesterday.


you did read the bit I have highlighted in bold right ?   JOC made the same comments even as we were winning the last 9 quarter finals. Your original point was that we are suddenly complaining about the qualifiers now that we were knocked out in the quarters which is bull.

I think you should concentrate on analyzing what is wrong with Mayo football rather than taking potshots at Kerry folk on the basis of imagined uproar in the Kingdom about the qualifiers system. 

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 05, 2010, 06:26:33 PM
Not to mention the inequity of the Provincial winners having no luxury of a loss like the rest of the teams.

This is the bullshít that really makes me worry about how thick people are.

When you are finished playing in the provincial championship, everyone only gets one chance in the All Ireland series.

NOBODY has the luxury of a loss in the All Ireland series.

The qualifier system really worked out well for Galway, Armagh and Mayo - teams who all would have been rated higher than Kildare and Down at the beginning of the championship.

Its a complete freak that all 4 provincial winners were beaten. Its certainly got the "lateral thinkers" out in force.

This is just stuff for journalists to fill a few column inches with.
The system works fine.
Maybe tweak it a small bit but in general it has been a huge success.
Far more teams are competitive, and far more teams have a realistic shot at provincial silverware.

Quote from: Hound on August 06, 2010, 08:21:05 AM

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 05, 2010, 06:26:33 PM
Not to mention the inequity of the Provincial winners having no luxury of a loss like the rest of the teams.

This is the bullshít that really makes me worry about how thick people are.

When you are finished playing in the provincial championship, everyone only gets one chance in the All Ireland series.

NOBODY has the luxury of a loss in the All Ireland series.

The qualifier system really worked out well for Galway, Armagh and Mayo - teams who all would have been rated higher than Kildare and Down at the beginning of the championship.

Its a complete freak that all 4 provincial winners were beaten. Its certainly got the "lateral thinkers" out in force.

Jeez H, and you call me thick!

The Provincial Championship is an intrinsic part of the All-Ireland - it always has been, or have you forgotten that? Amazing what a few years can do to obliterate a few brain cells. "Nobody has the luxury of a loss"  So Dublin are a figment then! :D

Here's the inevitable, unless the omnipotent oligarchs in Croke actually waken up, Kerry and/or Tyrone, and a few others, will field their bench in the opening Championship game 2011, and most likely get beaten, and thereby enter the open-draw Championship, aka 'The Qualifiers'. Problem is then, that because the high and mighty have been oblivious to the inevitable, there's no seeding, so one or two big names will depart rather earlier than they might otherwise have hoped.

So, the Provincials fade to distraction, and Fermanagh (or whoever) get their long-coveted Provincial Championship. Trouble is, it's not worth jackshit, because those for whom it is no longer an aspiration have long since abandoned the Provincial as a goal, and instead have diverted their exertions to the real deal.

Mickey Harte's idea is spot on: those who keep winning do not play one game more than they would do today under the current system (where the quarter-final against a qualifier is replaced with a qualifier against another Provincial winner); those who lose play one game more than they do now. Big deal! You lose, you take your chances (with the added bonus of the (losing) Provincial winners getting a second chance like all the rest of the losers who've preceded them).

I applaud Pat Gilroy for having the guts to make the hard decisions this year, it took bottle for the brickbats that would inescapably follow an early Leinster exit in 2010.

You keep your head well buried in the sand, and watch as the open-draw materialises de facto around your King Canute stupor.


And the only "knee-jerk" reactions in this whole sorry mess have been from the like of Duffy against what Harte (and O'Connor) have been saying for years; such a pity his head was stuck so far up his own arse to notice.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 06, 2010, 08:26:08 PM

And the only "knee-jerk" reactions in this whole sorry mess have been from the like of Duffy against what Harte (and O'Connor) have been saying for years; such a pity his head was stuck so far up his own arse to notice.

Only heard the whinge from Harte in 2009 and O'Connor ( and Harte) this year  :D

Quote from: Rossfan on August 06, 2010, 09:17:57 PM

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 06, 2010, 08:26:08 PM

And the only "knee-jerk" reactions in this whole sorry mess have been from the like of Duffy against what Harte (and O'Connor) have been saying for years; such a pity his head was stuck so far up his own arse to notice.

Only heard the whinge from Harte in 2009 and O'Connor ( and Harte) this year  :D

Take your head out of your arse then  ;)

Quote from: Mike Sheehy on August 06, 2010, 06:29:34 AM
Your original point was that we are suddenly complaining about the qualifiers now that we were knocked out in the quarters which is bull.

I think you should concentrate on analyzing what is wrong with Mayo football rather than taking potshots at Kerry folk on the basis of imagined uproar in the Kingdom about the qualifiers system.

No, Mike. My original point was that it gave me a great, big laugh to see Kerrymen and Tyronemen, after all the petty bitching over the years on this Board, finding coming ground.

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 02, 2010, 06:00:48 PM
I think the most frightening result of the weekend is the detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers. It's like a movie where Superman finds common ground with Lex Luthor because the Joker has come over from Gotham City to take over Metropolis. Really lads - what are you like?

As for your suggestion that I concentrate on analyzing what's wrong with Mayo football, Jack O'Connor has shown the way here again. Remember when he said in 2006 that Kerry's one year of hurt was worth more than Mayo's fifty? Well, that still holds. I'm having infinitely more crack here with you than I ever got out of any Mayo post-mortem. Best to think of me as being like the rain Mike - I'm here 'til the spring.  ;)

QuoteNo, Mike. My original point was that it gave me a great, big laugh to see Kerrymen and Tyronemen, after all the petty bitching over the years on this Board, finding coming ground

I am glad that in your fantasy world that Kerrymen and Tyronemen agree but it will never happen in the real world because, despite the fact that it costs us AI's,  we actually love the game of Gaelic football the way it should be played.

On paper it may look unusual that the 8 provincial finalists got beat. But when you look at the teams playing in the provincial finals a lot of traditionally bigger teams had already been knocked out. in conaught Sligo were playing Roscommon, in Leinster Meath were playing Louth. In Munster Limerick were playing a Kerry team significant weaker from last year. Tyrone just got a banana skin getting Dublin in the quarter final and down caught Kerry at the right time 2 key suspensions and 4 big players retired, nothing to do with back door.

Perhaps JOC and MH should take a leaf out of Brian Cody's book, nothing wrong with Kilkenny today, if your good enough you will win...

Not a fair comparison as Cork had only one more game than Kilkenny and this Kilkenny team are far ahead of Cork presently. I fancy will see the current Munster champions getting knocked out by a qualifier team next week.

Cork played 5 games to Kilkennys 2 at this stage, do honestly think if they played the last 4 Sundays in a row they would have beaten that Kilkenny side?

No as evidenced by my statement above - "this Kilkenny team are far ahead of Cork presently" - which makes my point. Saying Kilkenny do fine when they win their provincial final is ignoring the fact that they are far ahead of their competitors, unlike the football equivalent. Anyway, the fact that one team can get to an AI final by winning 3 games further highlights the ridiculousness of the current system.

Maybe i thought there was an implicit when there was none, my point was regardless how good this Kilkenny team are they played less games and still played at a level way above Cork, JOC has implied that the break for Kerry meant they were off the pace, Kilkenny don't suffer from this affliction.

The system is flawed but Wobbler's thread probably best addresses that....

QuoteThe system is flawed but Wobbler's thread probably best addresses that....

It does so I won't repeat those points here. However, you seem to be saying that there is no disadvantage going through they traditional route pointing to  Kilkenny's continued success to prove this. I would say there is a disadvantage going through the traditional route but it can be overcome if you are significantly better than your opponent, as Kilkenny are. If you are not, as is sometimes the case in football, then you are disadvantaged and both Harte and O'Connor are right, even if the timing of their views detracts from their point.

As repeated ad nauseum Harte and O'Connor are whinging because their teams lost.
Unlike Kilkenny their teams had too many of yesterday's men,were on the downwards slope and were beaten by younger fresher teams.
Maybe they should ask themselves did they pick the right players, had they prepared them properly and all the other questions managers should be asking themselves after a defeat.

As repeated ad nauseam? You said it.


Edit And just because you repeat that endlessly it doesn't make it correct: why do you persist with the lie that Harte is only saying what he's saying about the format now?

He had no complaints about it on 2008 nor had th'other bucko in 2009.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 03:57:25 PM
He had no complaints about it on 2008 nor had th'other bucko in 2009.

Mickey Harte has been talking about this for a few years now, and has admitted that Tyrone have been the beneficiaries in 05 and 08, but he still felt that the system was unfair ...

See below a direct quote from a column written in May 2009:

The two counties who could most justifiably feel aggrieved are Armagh and Dublin, who between them have 10 provincial titles during this period, and only that single All-Ireland won by Armagh in 2002. Though we in Tyrone have been the beneficiaries of the system in 2005 and 2008, I definitely believe that the current weighting is disadvantageous to the provincial champions.

See below the full article from the Irish News, Fri 22nd May 2009


The seed of an idea for fairer Qualifiers
By MICKEY HARTE

As the new Championship season gets underway, the debate as to whether the provincial series have been devalued because of the current Qualifying system gathers momentum.

The fact that both last year's All-Ireland finalists came through the non-conventional route, allied to the statistic that shows in the eight years since the inception of the 'back door' system, four qualifying teams (Galway in 2001, Tyrone in 2005, Kerry in 2006 and Tyrone again in 2008) have actually won the Sam Maguire.

The two counties who could most justifiably feel aggrieved are Armagh and Dublin, who between them have 10 provincial titles during this period, and only that single All-Ireland won by Armagh in 2002. Though we in Tyrone have been the beneficiaries of the system in 2005 and 2008, I definitely believe that the current weighting is disadvantageous to the provincial champions.

That four qualifiers can regain equal status in the last eight, after having lost a game, while the champions currently have no second chance, is grossly unfair. I have already suggested that I believe the provincial winners should play-off, as in the old style All-Ireland semi-finals, and the two losers await the two best qualifiers. I would like to elaborate a little on that view and allude to another deficiency in our current League system.

Because only the top two qualify for the NFL final, and very soon that reality is out of the reach of many, it becomes a case of avoiding relegation. This necessarily detracts from the competitive nature of the second most important gaelic football competition. Connecting League position to each championship draw and a re-structuring of the Qualifying system would address both these deficiencies simultaneously. This would take the format of a seeding process where the counties in each province would be rated according to their League finishing position.

For example, based on the League just completed, Ulster would read:

1 Derry; 2 Tyrone; 3 Monaghan

4 Donegal; 5 Armagh; 6 Down; 7 Fermanagh; 8 Cavan and 9 Antrim. Therefore, in the preliminary round Cavan would play Antrim and the winner would go into the quarter-final where they would play Derry. Accordingly, Tyrone (2), would play Fermanagh (7), Monaghan (3) would meet Down (6) and Donegal (4) would play Armagh (5).

The loser of the preliminary game would enter the first round of the Qualifiers. In Leinster, the competing teams would be rated one to 11, in Munster one to 6 and in Connacht one to 6. New York would be accommodated on a rotational basis as at present.

In a new departure, I would suggest that the preliminary round losers, which would be eight in total (one in Ulster, three in Leinster, and two from both Connacht and Munster) should play off in an open draw and the four winners go forward to the second round where they would be in the same pool as the losing quarter-finalists in Ulster and Leinster (totalling eight) and the losing semi-finalists in the other two provinces (totalling four), thus making a total of 16 teams in the second round of the Qualifiers.

In theory, this should result in the 16 bottom teams according to current League form making up the second round of the Qualifiers. Of course, there could be a number of 'upsets' or giantkilling acts, and consequently a highly ranked team could find themselves in the Qualifiers at this stage, but it is likely that the majority would follow the expected pattern. This method would have the distinct advantage of giving developing counties a realistic chance of making progress and not suffering any humiliating defeats. The eight winners would then play each other in an open draw (third round) and again the four winners play in the fourth round to leave two successful teams.

Meanwhile, there would be two beaten semi-finalists in Ulster and Leinster plus the beaten finalists in Munster and Connacht to join them in making a total of eight again. An open draw for the fifth round would reduce this to four and the sixth round would reduce this to two and then the beaten finalists in Ulster and Leinster would provide their opposition (seventh round) to eventually leave the two best qualifiers who would have to meet the beaten provincial champions (eighth round) in order to re-enter the All Ireland series proper.

I know you might be thinking this appears complicated, but, I assure you, there is a degree of logic in the proposal. I understand the overall logistics in making any system work is fraught with much difficulty but, nevertheless, I believe this system could address some of the deficiencies often attributed to the current All-Ireland football structures. The benefits could be (a) higher value placed on League positions equally valid across each province; (b) better weighting given to provincial success and, consequently, more of a 'knock-out' mentality prevailing within the provinces; (c) more realistic chance for developing teams to make progress without the risk of demoralising defeats; (d) it would create a more level playing field for teams from Ulster and Leinster, where their beaten finalists enter at a more advanced stage than those from the provinces with a smaller number of counties.

As in all such innovative thinking I am very well aware that the devil is often in the detail and, no doubt, I may have overlooked some critical factors in this thought process. However, it might serve to initiate some solutions rather than re-iterate the problems inherent in the current system.

http://gaatipster.forumotion.net/gaa-ginearalta-general-gaa-f10/mickey-harte-s-column-in-today-s-irish-news-t696.htm (http://gaatipster.forumotion.net/gaa-ginearalta-general-gaa-f10/mickey-harte-s-column-in-today-s-irish-news-t696.htm)

Quote from: Zulu on August 08, 2010, 07:39:51 PM
No as evidenced by my statement above - "this Kilkenny team are far ahead of Cork presently" - which makes my point. Saying Kilkenny do fine when they win their provincial final is ignoring the fact that they are far ahead of their competitors, unlike the football equivalent. Anyway, the fact that one team can get to an AI final by winning 3 games further highlights the ridiculousness of the current system.

I agree that the comparion with Kilkenny isn't comparing like with like. Kilkenny are so far ahead of the competition that their players could be banned from any training after the Leinster final and forced to eat a tub of ice-cream and drink a bottle of champagne every day and they'd still win their semi-final comfortably.
It's only when the difference between the teams is marginal that you can tell whether it's a disadvantage or not.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 03:57:25 PM
He had no complaints about it on 2008 nor had th'other bucko in 2009.

Yes he had (see mick999's post), it's just that you weren't listening, probably because it seems you only hear what you want to.

Rather curious don't you think that the only two counties that have actually won via the Qualifying route (so far) are fully behind the calls for a more equitable system, which involves only a tweak to the current set-up? No coincidence either, that the Tyrone County Board were the only backers of Dublin's motion at Congress last year -- at whose behest to you think?

Quote from: mick999 on August 09, 2010, 04:13:50 PM

Mickey Harte has been talking about this for a few years now, and has admitted that Tyrone have been the beneficiaries in 05 and 08, but he still felt that the system was unfair ...

There was no market for this type of story in 05 and 08.

Another discussion about Harte's proposal in 2009...

http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2963498&postcount=15 (http://www.peoplesrepublicofcork.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2963498&postcount=15)

anyone hear Mickey Harte's proposal yesterday on Sunday Sport on Radio 1 regarding the football Championship. Very interesting.
And deffo food for thought.
He reckons the winners of the four provincial championships should be paired off against each in the first of two quarterfinals.
Two winners obviously straight through to semi finals.
The other two quarterfinals should be the two losing provincial winners from that to play only TWO teams coming through the qualifier system into quarter finals{as opposed to four whcih it currently stands- ie make them play an extra round of qualifiers}

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And an article from Hogan Stand from Aug 2008

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=99616 (http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=99616)

Harte calls for provincial winners' backdoor
14 August 2008

Quote from: Zapatista on August 09, 2010, 04:23:01 PM

Quote from: mick999 on August 09, 2010, 04:13:50 PM

Mickey Harte has been talking about this for a few years now, and has admitted that Tyrone have been the beneficiaries in 05 and 08, but he still felt that the system was unfair ...

There was no market for this type of story in 05 and 08.

Not in tyrone anyway

Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.
Any team loses a game in the All Ireland Championship = OUT.

Perfectly fair understandable and equitable.
Micky Harte's nonsense = Provincial winners get to lose a game in the all ireland Championship and get back in. So a team goes unbeaten to the All Ireland Final and then loses.
Have to replay the Final "because ALL teams must get a second chance".
No wonder Congress in one of its more lucid moments threw that out.

Looks like Congress will get another motion ...

http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=133629 (http://www.hoganstand.com/ArticleForm.aspx?ID=133629)

If the provincial winners all play off then the losers of these matches played the 'back door' winners then you could have Kerry playing Tyrone in the quarter final and then playing the same team in the semi final.  Where by the team that won the quarter final match could then lose the semi final and be back to the same argument (everyone else but us got a second chance).

It's nearly impossible to have a system where everyone will be happy.  Todays system is fair in that every team knows what the rules are before the championship starts and is subject to the same rules i.e.  if you get knocked out before the quarter final you get 1 more chance.  After the quarter final it's a knockout competition whether you needed to use your second chance or not.

Jack O'Connor would be better looking at the discipline of the Kerry team.  Other teams go out with the instruction to try to wind the likes of Galvin up as they know he will fall for it, if they keep getting key players suspended they run the risk of 'shock' defeats in quarter finals.

What about "ask the audience"? If provincial champions are beaten in a quarter final they can use their lifeline. Roscommon would have beaten Cork by about 7,500.

Or phone a friend. Jack O'Connor? Eamon O'Brien is doing OK, but he's a bit stuck. The next voice you hear will be Eamon's. Go ahead Eamon; your thirty seconds start ... NOW!
Hello Jack. Kildare are leading by nine points. What do we do?

Quote from: Hardy on August 09, 2010, 05:40:55 PM


Or phone a friend. Jack O'Connor? Eamon O'Brien is doing OK, but he's a bit stuck. The next voice you hear will be Eamon's. Go ahead Eamon; your thirty seconds start ... NOW!
Hello Jack. Kildare are leading by nine points. What do we do?

Award Meath a penalty try. Obvious !

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.
Any team loses a game in the All Ireland Championship = OUT.

Perfectly fair understandable and equitable.
Micky Harte's nonsense = Provincial winners get to lose a game in the all ireland Championship and get back in. So a team goes unbeaten to the All Ireland Final and then loses.
Have to replay the Final "because ALL teams must get a second chance".
No wonder Congress in one of its more lucid moments threw that out.

Pure rot.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.
Any team loses a game in the All Ireland Championship = OUT.

The Provincials are an intrinsic part of the All-Ireland, always have been, they're not a separate competition.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
Perfectly fair understandable and equitable.

Badly flawed premise, equally badly formed conclusion.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
Present system = you play in your Provincial Championship ...either win it ...then a bye to All Ireland Quarter Final or lose and you enter the All Ireland at Round 1 or 2.

FFS, it is not a bye, Provincial winners have skipped no fecking rounds... Oh boy!  :-\

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
Micky Harte's nonsense = Provincial winners get to lose a game in the all ireland Championship and get back in. So a team goes unbeaten to the All Ireland Final and then loses.

Provincial winners get to lose a game like every other team in the Provincials who have lost, every other fecking team.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
Have to replay the Final "because ALL teams must get a second chance".

WTF! You really haven't a clue what being proposed have you -- it has never been proposed that every team gets a second chance. Do try to understand the proposals before you shoot them down.

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 04:53:04 PM
No wonder Congress in one of its more lucid moments threw that out.

Yep, as lucid as your 'logic', i.e., mud. And that motion is not dead yet.


In the last 10 years, since the beginning of the Qualifiers, 21 of the 40 teams who have made the Semis have been Qualifiers. That's right, the majority of those who made it through to semis were not Provincial winners (52.5%), whereas before it was 100%, therefore it favours Qualifiers and those teams who lose earlier in the All-Ireland.

Currently the only team in the Provincials that doesn't get a second chance are the winners... yeah, that's really fair.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 09, 2010, 07:06:07 PM
Currently the only team in the Provincials that doesn't get a second chance are the winners... yeah, that's really fair.

They don't get a second chance because they don't need a second chance. They qualify straight for the quarter finals. All the other teams need to play extra games before they can reach the quarter finals.

Quote from: dec on August 09, 2010, 08:30:10 PM

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 09, 2010, 07:06:07 PM
Currently the only team in the Provincials that doesn't get a second chance are the winners... yeah, that's really fair.

They don't get a second chance because they don't need a second chance. They qualify straight for the quarter finals. All the other teams need to play extra games before they can reach the quarter finals.

More strawman arguments.

Before the Qualifiers they were straight into the semi-final, so this is actually an extra stage as a result of the Qualifiers,yet even though it's an extra stage that the Provincial winners must negotiate they get no second chance should they lose like every other team in the Provincials.

The fact is that the current set up favours those teams that lose, the statistics are patently clear; it's no more complicated than that, and to argue for the status quo is to argue for a set-up that cherishes losers above winners. Just because it's an amateur organisation is not a reason to tolerate a totally amateurish approach to the whole thing.

It'll never be perfect, but that's no reason at all not to try to make it better.

The proposed Harte/Tyrone shite system won't make it better anyway.

As you might say yourself Strabaneman   ROT !!!

Quote from: Rossfan on August 09, 2010, 09:32:43 PM
The proposed Harte/Tyrone shite system won't make it better anyway.

I genuinely don't know how you can say that, since you've no idea about the proposal (as you've plainly demonstrated); moreover, you don't even know how the current system works if you think that winning a Provincial actually constitutes a bye!  ???

Anyway, you keep your faith in a set-up that favours the losers.  Very progressive and forward-looking.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 09, 2010, 08:37:55 PM
The fact is that the current set up favours those teams that lose, the statistics are patently clear; it's no more complicated than that, and to argue for the status quo is to argue for a set-up that cherishes losers above winners.

The system does not favour those that lose. Since the backdoor started the quarter final score is 21-19 in favour of the backdoor teams which is as narrow a gap as you could have. In fact it is only because of this years 4-0 win for the backdoor teams, that they have a lead. The provincial champions have not been behind overall since the backdoor started, until this year.

The main reason for the backdoor lead is the relative strengths and weaknesses of the provinces. Connacht provincial champions are 2-8 whereas Cork and Kerry have won 7 quarter finals as backdoor teams.

The only Q/F game this year that was a real shock was Down/Kerry. Dublin,Cork and Kildare have all shown some recent pedigree.

If shock results were a regular occurance at the Q/F stage then you could claim that the backdoor gave them an advantage. However Cork/Kerry win games as a backdoor team because they are good, and Connacht champions lose games because in recent years they haven't been so good.

Over the course of the backdoor system the number of backdoor victories in the Q/F by province is

Ulster 8
Munster 7
Leinster 5
Connacht 1

This simply reflects the fact that in the last 10 years Munster and Ulster have been the stronger provinces. The advantage that they had was that they were better teams than their opponents, not that the system was biased in their favour.

Quote from: dec on August 09, 2010, 09:55:29 PM

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 09, 2010, 08:37:55 PM
The fact is that the current set up favours those teams that lose, the statistics are patently clear; it's no more complicated than that, and to argue for the status quo is to argue for a set-up that cherishes losers above winners.

The system does not favour those that lose. Since the backdoor started the quarter final score is 21-19 in favour of the backdoor teams which is as narrow a gap as you could have. In fact it is only because of this years 4-0 win for the backdoor teams, that they have a lead. The provincial champions have not been behind overall since the backdoor started, until this year.

It doesn't matter how thin the advantage is for the losing teams, it's still an advantage, that's the key and fundamental principle. It should be a much, much wider margin, in favour of those teams that haven't used the 'back door'.

Everything else you say is just skirting around the main inequity: why should a team that hasn't lost, when they need to negotiate an extra stage that has been brought in to facilitate losing teams, be denied a second chance like those they'll face at that supplementary stage? It doesn't make sense, and worse, the Provincials will be relegated to a side-show to be dumped from as soon as possible.

I don't understand this resistance to a tweak to the current set-up that would mitigate the current weaknesses significantly. It's not like it has flawlessly been in place for decades, and it's not like the whole thing would be overhauled.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 09, 2010, 10:08:56 PM
It doesn't matter how thin the advantage is for the losing teams, it's still an advantage, that's the key and fundamental principle. It should be a much, much wider margin, in favour of those teams that haven't used the 'back door'.

You are assuming that it is the system that gave the advantage to the losing (backdoor) teams. It isn't. It is because the Munster and Ulster teams that came through the back door were generally better than the Leinster and Connacht teams they faced. If the system was so tough on Provincial champions why did 9/10 Munster champions win their Q/F (because they were good). If the system is so good for backdoor teams then why have Connacht teams only won one Q/F as a backdoor team (because they were not so good).

From 1969 through 1990 Munster/Leinster won 22 straight All-Ireland football finals. In that span Connacht/Ulster managed 1 semi final vistory over Munster/Leinster (Galway over Offaly 1973). Does this mean that system gave teams from Munster/Leinster an advantage or was it just that those teams were better?

I'm not assuming anything -- the set-up is flawed, and it'll never be perfect, but it can be made less imperfect. And I don't buy your simplistic argument about back door teams being better necessarily -- it has more to do with the momentum built up over games over successive weeks IMO.

Ideally, the fairest way would be a set-up where each team at each stage has played an identical number of games (unlike the 'old' knockout system, which wasn't perfect either), but that is not going to happen anytime soon realistically, and that shouldn't prohibit small changes to the set-up in the meantime that will remove some of the flaws.

You still haven't addressed the fundamental inequity of the current set-up, and how easy it would be fix the one glaring anomaly. That's all I really care about, because that's all that can be addressed in practical terms.

I'm repeating myself here, enough already.

There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Quote from: dec on August 10, 2010, 12:00:42 AM
There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Every team in the Provincials gets a second chance except the winners -- that's a glaring anomaly, that the only 4 teams that get no second chance in the whole competition are those that have not lost.

Why should the quarter-final have such preeminent significance with you since it was only introduced to facilitate the Qualifiers, at the expense of the Provincial winners going straight through to the semis? They shouldn't, and Harte's proposal would correct that, and it would also guarantee at least 50% Provincial winner participation in the semis, which would fix that issue too.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 10, 2010, 12:16:18 AM

Quote from: dec on August 10, 2010, 12:00:42 AM
There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Every team in the Provincials gets a second chance except the winners -- that's a glaring anomaly, that the only 4 teams that get no second chance in the whole competition are those that have not lost.

Why should the quarter-final have such preeminent significance with you since it was only introduced to facilitate the Qualifiers, at the expense of the Provincial winners going straight through to the semis? They shouldn't, and Harte's proposal would correct that, and it would also guarantee at least 50% Provincial winner participation in the semis, which would fix that issue too.

All teams can have a second chance to reach the q/f, four teams don't need to use that second chance.
Harte's proposal would just postpone the issue. If one of unbeaten provincial winners loses in the s/f then the same situation arises (a team getting knocked out without a "second chance")

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 09, 2010, 11:47:51 PM
fundamental inequity of the current set-up, and how easy it would be fix the one glaring anomaly. That's all I really care about, because that's all that can be addressed in practical terms.

I'm repeating myself here, enough already.

The thingy Micky Harte and his loyal followers are proposing is just  too silly for words. An un necessary extra round of meaningless games the winners of which dont get a "second chance".
Provincial Champions do get a bye to the All Ireland Quarter Finals by virtue of being Provincial Champions. Those that fail to win their Provincial Championships enter the All Ireland Championship at either Round 1, 2 or 4.
The Provincial Championships are their own separate competitions .
There is no inequality .. Down/Kerry, Dublin/Tyrone, Ros/Cork and Kildare/Meath all started the weekend of 31/7-1/8 with an equal opportunity of winning Sam under the same conditions ...win you're in the Semi/lose and you're out.
Congress (for once) had the good sense to throw out the Tyrone/Dublin silliness last April and hopefully will do the same again.
If there are to be changes to the championship system/structure it needs to be only after a long period of consultation and in conjunction with an overall package taking into account the whole scene ... Adult/Underage/County/club/NFLs/Sigersons/Hurling as well rather than once off knee jerk reactions by losing managers who should be looking at where they and their teams went wrong rather than the red herring whinges about the system.

Quote from: IolarCoisCuain on August 02, 2010, 06:00:48 PM
I think the most frightening result of the weekend is the detente that has broken out between Tyrone and Kerry about the "unfairness" of the qualifiers. It's like a movie where Superman finds common ground with Lex Luthor because the Joker has come over from Gotham City to take over Metropolis. Really lads - what are you like?

Quote from: ONeill on August 01, 2010, 09:48:04 PM
Saw this on Twitter -
http://twitpic.com/2aqk1z

Messing aside, these are interesting stats. Don't forget, that one Provincial finalist isn't like another. Tyrone or Kerry going down this year isn't like Westmeath losing in 2004 or Sligo in 2007, for instance. We shouldn't give them equal weighing.

This looking at the system up and down is typical of our mindset in Ireland. Rather than look at our own failings and address them, we look at the system to see what b**tard has one up on us.

It was the same with Galway in the hurling twenty years ago, when they had a bye to the All-Ireland semis. Did the lack of games help them or hinder them? Galway haven't won any hurling titles since that ended - is that because they don't get the bye to the semi anymore, or because their teams aren't good enough? Who knows?

The search for "fairness" is fool's gold. Bring back the right Championship, where you lived or died after every game. Better all round. At least you knew where you bloody stood.

Lazy analysis. Westmeath were beaten by goals in 04, the same reason that Kerry & Tyrone were beaten this year. Not because they were a perceived weaker team, just caught on the day, which is what the championship is all about.

I see Mickey Harte is whinging again this year, at least Sean Cavanagh can breath a sigh of relief that he won't be hung out to dry again...

Quote from: dec on August 10, 2010, 12:23:02 AM

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on August 10, 2010, 12:16:18 AM

Quote from: dec on August 10, 2010, 12:00:42 AM
There is no glaring anomaly.

Before the q/f every team can have a second chance to reach the q/f. From the q/f on it is straight Knockout and no-one gets a second chance.

Every team in the Provincials gets a second chance except the winners -- that's a glaring anomaly, that the only 4 teams that get no second chance in the whole competition are those that have not lost.

Why should the quarter-final have such preeminent significance with you since it was only introduced to facilitate the Qualifiers, at the expense of the Provincial winners going straight through to the semis? They shouldn't, and Harte's proposal would correct that, and it would also guarantee at least 50% Provincial winner participation in the semis, which would fix that issue too.

All teams can have a second chance to reach the q/f, four teams don't need to use that second chance.
Harte's proposal would just postpone the issue. If one of unbeaten provincial winners loses in the s/f then the same situation arises (a team getting knocked out without a "second chance")

The quarter-finals are a contrived, artificial introduction to allow losers re-entry -- why do you hold the quarters as sacrosanct? There is no sanctity about them. 

Harte's proposal is not just about postponing the issue -- have you even read it? What he's saying is that once in the semis, and if you're beaten, fair enough, because the path to the semis has been made more equitable in that every team that played in the Provincials has had the chance to lose once, even the winners, and the semis being where the Provincial winners would have been were it not for the facilitation of losers -- what is so difficult to understand about that?

And as for this ridiculous suggestion from the likes of Duffy that the Provincials are a 'separate competition' -- yeah, that's why participation in the Provincials is optional. Pure twaddle.

I suppose Fear if micky Harte called you a b****x you'd send in 10 posts here agreeing with him  :D ;D :D

Now Munster hurling provincial winners dumped out.

The discussion will continue.

Quote from: thewobbler on August 01, 2010, 05:53:34 PM
Why does it not look good?

Next year all the semifinalists will be provincial champions, then the likes of you will be proclaiming the qualifiers as a waste of time.

If shocks and unexpected outcomes didn't happen, we wouldn't watch sport. But for some bizarre reason people regard a lack of symmetry in GAA outcomes as an area of concern.

:o

Never mind being shocked, I can't believe you remembered someone said that a year ago :D

I don't forget AZ, you'd do well to remember that  ;)

The qualifiers are a waste of time.