Searched through here a bit and surprisingly can't see much in way of discussion on this subject.
Maybe some of ye here could explain the fundamental difference in an innocent Palestinian and an innocent Russian loosing their lives to brutality and or terrorism!
No difference really TO, just maybe less romantic in some peoples eyes.
or why islamic nutters with weapons intending harm are terrorists and christian nutters with weapons intending harm are militia?
Quote from: heganboy on April 03, 2010, 12:26:29 AM
or why islamic nutters with weapons intending harm are terrorists and christian nutters with weapons intending harm are militia?
Or in some cases the reverse, such as the numerous Balken Wars.
Quote from: heganboy on April 03, 2010, 12:26:29 AM
or why islamic nutters with weapons intending harm are terrorists and christian nutters with weapons intending harm are militia?
Why don't we call a spade a spade here HB, they were no doubt falling over themselves to highlight and emphasize the word Christian in labeling them, they could give a rats ass what followed it....mission accomplished I'd say as the useful idiots are running with it.
Maybe now that they've began targeting groups that could be deemed threatening to us here in this country, they'll
infiltrate and take out the Islamic Jihadist training grounds that are splattered throughout this land who actually
do mean harm :o and have no problem saying so....sure why would they with the spineless gobshites running this show
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 02, 2010, 11:19:47 PM
Searched through here a bit and surprisingly can't see much in way of discussion on this subject.
Maybe some of ye here could explain the fundamental difference in an innocent Palestinian and an innocent Russian loosing their lives to brutality and or terrorism!
There is no difference in an innocent losing their life, whether Russian, Palestinian, Jew, Arab, Catholic or Protestant, but you can not compare what the US sponsored Israel is doing to the Palestinians, and the Chechens in Russia.
Don't know if the Chechens would agree with that. State sponsered oppression would be what they'd say.
Doesn't make it right though.
Massacre in woods that brought war to Moscow's metro
Luke Harding in Ingushetia reports on the murder of four teenagers that inspired bombings
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2010/4/2/1270234122284/Movsar-Dakaev-001.jpg)
Movsar Dakaev
Movsar Dakaev, 17, photographed on the garlic-picking expedition in the woods between Chechnya and Ingushetia that led to his death. Photograph: Memorial
When the shooting started Adlan Mutsaev and his friends were in the woods picking garlic. They had arrived in the forest earlier that day, together with a group of neighbours travelling in a battered coach. The plan had been straightforward: stuff their sacks, enjoy the countryside, and then head back home to the Chechen town of Achkoi-Martan.
Without warning, Russian commandos hiding behind a hillock opened fire.Adlan, 16, was with his brother Arbi, 19, and their friends Shamil Kataev, 19, and Movsar Tataev, 19. Shamil and Movsar were both wounded. Adlan was shot in the leg, but managed to hobble into a ditch. He hid. Arbi also attempted to flee, but men in camouflage fatigues caught up with him.
According to the human rights group Memorial, Arbi was forced to drag his two wounded and bleeding friends across the snow. Shamil begged for his life. But the solders were impervious. They placed a blindfold over Arbi's eyes. And then they opened fire: executing Shamil and Movsar on the spot. At least two other garlic pickers suffered the same fate: Ramzan Susaev, 40, and Movsar Dakaev, 17. According to his relatives, Dakaev had pleaded to be allowed on the trip with the others. Wearing a bright green fleece, he took a photo of himself in the woods with his mobile phone. It shows him proudly posing against a craggy backdrop of cliffs and trees covered in snow. A little over 48 hours later his body was discovered.
The misfortune of the four garlic pickers was to have unwittingly strayed into a "counter-insurgency operation" conducted by Russian forces in the densely wooded border between Chechnya and Ingushetia. The soldiers, apparently looking for militant rebels who are waging their own violent campaign against the Russian state, came across the unarmed group, brutally killing them amid the picturesque massif of low hills.
Normally this atrocity on a cold day in February would have raised barely a ripple of attention had it not been for the terrible events in Moscow this week. In a video address on Thursday, Chechnya's chief insurgent leader, Doku Umarov, said Monday's suicide attacks on the Russian capital's metro were in revenge for the killings of the garlic pickers near the Ingush village of Arshaty. He claimed federal security service (FSB) commandos had used knives to mutilate their bodies of the dead boys.
Forty people died and more than 70 were injured when two suicide attackers from the North Caucasus set off their devices at stations outside the headquarters of the FSB and Park Kultury.
Russia's counter-terrorism committee yesterday named the Park Kultury bomber as Dzhanet Abdurakhmanova, saying she was also known as Dzhanet Abdullayeva. Born in 1992, she came from Dagestan. Kommersant newspaper published a photo of her dressed in a black Muslim headscarf holding a pistol. It named the second bomber as 20-year-old Markha Ustarkhanova from Chechnya, describing her as the widow of a militant leader killed last October.
Linked or not, human rights groups say it is undeniable that the brutal actions of Russia's security forces have fuelled the insurgency raging across the North Caucasus region of Russia and the ethnic republics of Dagestan, Ingushetia, Chechnya and Kabardino-Balkaria. This largely invisible war has now reached the Kremlin's doorstep.
"People are abducted. People are killed. There are no guarantees of security," Magomed Mutsolgov, a human rights activist, told the Guardian yesterday, speaking from Nazran, Ingushetia's chief town. Law enforcement and security agencies have committed dozens of summary and arbitrary detentions, acts of torture and cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment, as well as extra-judicial executions, rights groups say.
Typically, armed personnel wearing masks encircle a village or district in a "sweep operation". They force their way into homes, beat residents and damage property. Suspected militants are taken away. Many never return. Others are simply shot, and fake weapons planted on them, rights groups allege, citing interviews with victims and relatives.
According to Mutsolgov, the Kremlin's counter-terrorism methods have proved entirely counter-productive: "Violence produces more violence. It drives people to the militant underground."
The nature of the armed conflict in the North Caucasus has also mutated. From 1994 to 1996 Boris Yeltsin fought a war against mainly secular Chechen separatists who wanted – like the newly independent Georgians over the mountains – their own constitution and state. In 1999-2004 president Vladimir Putin fought a second Chechen war. The aim was to crush Chechen separatism.
Now, however, the Kremlin is battling another kind of enemy. The new generation of insurgents have an explicitly Islamist goal: to create a radical pan-Caucasian emirate with sharia law, a bit like Afghanistan under the Taliban. In February Umarov vowed to "liberate" not only the North Caucasus and Krasnodar Krai but Astrakhan – on the Caspian Sea -and the Volga region as well.
The rebels' tactics have also grown more fanatical. Umarov has seemingly revived the suicide squads used by his assassinated predecessor Shamil Basaev. Last summer a suicide truck bomber blew up Nazran's police station. Another bomber succeeded in ramming the car of Ingushetia's president, Yunus-Bek Yevkurov. Monday's attack in Moscow was the first in the capital for six years.
Increasingly, the rebels are also exploiting a new weapon: the web. On 2 March special forces launched a massive operation in Ekashevo, a suburb on the outskirts of Nazran. There they killed Said Buryatsky, a Siberian-born convert whose jihadist messages on YouTube had attracted a following among disaffected Muslims. Under fire from Russian artillery, Buryatksy recorded a final message for his global disciples.
Yesterday Russian forces had sealed off Ekashevo. But video footage obtained by Memorial shows a picture of devastation: pulverised houses, wrecked cars and alleyways strewn with bricks. After the battle Russian forces displayed a haul of weapons seized from the rebels – together with a blown-off human hand.
Human rights groups are critical of both sides. They accuse the rebels and government of failing to respect human life. Timur Akiev, the head of Memorial's Nazran office, said: "The government's methods have led to a radicalisation of the underground. The rebels now have only one goal: to beat Russia at any price. The rebels and the security forces behave in the same way towards each other. The civilian population is caught in the middle."
Like its imperial tsarist predecessors, who subdued the Caucasus in a sustained and savage campaign of tree-felling and village-burning, today's Russian leadership has little understanding of the region or its habits, Akiev suggested.
He also condemned Monday's bombings. "I don't understand how you can kill Russian civilians in revenge for the killing of Chechen civilians. It's absurd. The people who died in the metro had nothing to do with the conflict."
The Kremlin's response to the metro bombings has been, predictably, vengeful. Vladimir Putin has called for those responsible to be "scraped from the sewers". Dmitry Medvedev, the president, visited Kizlyar on Thursday, a day after twin suicide bombers killed 12 people and injured 28 others.
Security forces should "get more cruel", he recommended. "Quite a lot has been achieved in fighting terrorism lately," Medvedev said. "We have twisted the heads off the most odious bandits. But that, by all accounts, is not enough. We will track them down and punish all of them. We must deal sharp dagger blows to the terrorists, and destroy them and their lairs."
Before Monday's Moscow bombings, Medvedev had taken a few tentatively creative steps in the region, including appointing a new federal envoy. But the key problems remain. There are numerous socio-economic factors driving the insurgency: poverty, unemployment (running unofficially at around 75% in Ingushetia), police brutality, and corruption.
Back in Achkoi-Martan, it took relatives two days to discover what had happened to their loved ones. After hiding for 48 hours in a hole, fed by a spring, Adlan Mutaev crawled out of the forest. Local people discovered him alive on the edge of the wood. His brother Arbi was released by Russian commandos after two days. Human rights workers from Memorial arrived on 14 February, interviewing dozens of witnesses and taking photographs of corpses heaped up in the snow.
Those of Shamil Kataev revealed that he had been shot in the temple from close range. Someone had stolen his mobile phone and passport, as well as a letter from the head of Achkoi-Martin, granting the garlic pickers permission to be in the area. The body of Movsar Tataev was covered in gunshot wounds. In addition there were knife wounds to his spine and groin. Ramzan Susaev had been shot in the chest. His brother eventually found his body lying in the forest.
Unusually, Ingushetia's president Yevkurov quickly acknowledged that several innocent civilians had been killed in February's special operation. He added, however, that security forces had succeeded in killing 18 rebels, and said that the operation had served to increase the stability of the region. Both Chechnya and Ingushetia's rulers have paid the families of the dead teenage boys compensation.
QuoteMassacre in woods that brought war to Moscow's metro
Someone should tell Luke Harding that Russia has crossed swords with these Chechen Islamic terrorists
operating under the
peaceful banner ::) that is Islam long before this event rolled around.
The Guardian's numbers must be down for the month or something...
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 02, 2010, 11:19:47 PM
Searched through here a bit and surprisingly can't see much in way of discussion on this subject.
Maybe some of ye here could explain the fundamental difference in an innocent Palestinian and an innocent Russian loosing their lives to brutality and or terrorism!
The fundamental difference is that the people who perpetrated the crime on the innocent Palestinian will be given medals
Quote from: deiseach on April 03, 2010, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 02, 2010, 11:19:47 PM
Searched through here a bit and surprisingly can't see much in way of discussion on this subject.
Maybe some of ye here could explain the fundamental difference in an innocent Palestinian and an innocent Russian loosing their lives to brutality and or terrorism!
The fundamental difference is that the people who perpetrated the crime on the innocent Palestinian will be given medals
By Who?.... No the fundamental differences or irony if you like that exists here on this board is that a blind eye or some
kind of justification can always be found when it's Islamic extremist' perpetrating the atrocities the world over but then
the lynch mobs are sent out to warn us of the extreme danger we're in when it's anyone else i.e those violent crazy Christians in Michigan ::)
The silence is deafening on this blatant disregard for human life from the resident terrorist sympathizers here on the board :o
As I've stated before...they don't even have the sense to at least be seen to care for the innocents killed in the name of Allah !
I disagree with Russia's actions in Chechnya as I do with Israel's actions in Gaza.
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 03, 2010, 06:29:35 PM
Quote from: deiseach on April 03, 2010, 04:59:08 PM
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 02, 2010, 11:19:47 PM
Searched through here a bit and surprisingly can't see much in way of discussion on this subject.
Maybe some of ye here could explain the fundamental difference in an innocent Palestinian and an innocent Russian loosing their lives to brutality and or terrorism!
The fundamental difference is that the people who perpetrated the crime on the innocent Palestinian will be given medals
By Who?.... No the fundamental differences or irony if you like that exists here on this board is that a blind eye or some
kind of justification can always be found when it's Islamic extremist' perpetrating the atrocities the world over but then
the lynch mobs are sent out to warn us of the extreme danger we're in when it's anyone else i.e those violent crazy Christians in Michigan ::)
The silence is deafening on this blatant disregard for human life from the resident terrorist sympathizers here on the board :o
As I've stated before...they don't even have the sense to at least be seen to care for the innocents killed in the name of Allah !
Any sign of those weapons of mass destruction :o
TO has a point. But he is totally devoid of reality to equate these events, in even the most tangential of a fashion.
Israel is backed to the hilt, both militarily and financially by the US, and by dint of that support acts with some sort of God-given authority in the general order of things. TO thinks that that is the way it should be, regardless of the mayhem and murder of the innocents she commits. Others (like me) think that that's just wrong, plain wrong; power alone does not righteousness make.
The guerrillas of Chechen are reacting against a very powerful imperial power, who [Russia] believe they have a right to mow down anyone who obstructs their imperial designs. A bit like Britain in Ireland, but sure let's not let reality impede our ideology, eh?
In TO's mind, the 'legitimate' powers of Russia (according to himself) have no more to answer for than the 'illegitimate' powers of the breakaway Chechens (according to himself), but sure let's not let mere technicalities obstruct mere political dogma, for that would be a really bad place to be!
Leave him alone FoSB or you will be quickly labelled as a hater and we all know what THAT means, don't we?
Life is less important in some coutries, getting to work on time is more important. There was an English man in Moscow on the phone, his attitude to the bombings was "yeah there was a bomb but I managed to get on a train anyway and get into work". Did he not think that the day the muslim terrorists are bombing the underground is not the day to be rushing to get on a train. get a grip and stay at home man.
To be fair also FoSB, the Chechen guerrillas are all about an Islamic state, they have no political ideals
Quote from: Capt Pat on April 03, 2010, 09:32:44 PM
Life is less important in some coutries, getting to work on time is more important. There was an English man in Moscow on the phone, his attitude to the bombings was "yeah there was a bomb but I managed to get on a train anyway and get into work". Did he not think that the day the muslim terrorists are bombing the underground is not the day to be rushing to get on a train. get a grip and stay at home man.
You've dicks like that in every country. I work with dicks like that!
Why was he a dick?
Quote from: Lecale2 on April 03, 2010, 10:03:21 PM
Why was he a dick?
Quote
"yeah there was a bomb but I managed to get on a train anyway and get into work"
for having an attitude like that.
Capt Pat, Lecale2 is just one of these entitities on the internet which is usually best left alone to its own devices
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 03, 2010, 09:19:37 PM
TO has a point.
Could have stopped there Fear :).......... but since ye didn't, please point out where I've ever stated my support for
the actions of the Israeli's in Gaza and while your at it why not take a stab at the real point I was making in the above post,
as to what could only be described as
silent justification on what is clearly a terrorist act on the innocent people of Russia from the
human rights activists ::) we have amongst us ...ye know the handful I'm talking about, right? ;)
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 03, 2010, 10:42:34 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 03, 2010, 09:19:37 PM
TO has a point.
Could have stopped there Fear :).......... but since ye didn't, please point out where I've ever stated my support for
the actions of the Israeli's in Gaza and while your at it why not take a stab at the real point I was making in the above post,
as to what could only be described as silent justification on what is clearly a terrorist act on the innocent people of Russia from the
human rights activists ::) we have amongst us ...ye know the handful I'm talking about, right? ;)
Yes you are well known on here for your support of the oppressed and abused in Gaza :o
Take a redner :D
Quote from: Tyrones own on April 03, 2010, 10:42:34 PM
Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on April 03, 2010, 09:19:37 PM
TO has a point.
Could have stopped there Fear :).......... but since ye didn't, please point out where I've ever stated my support for
the actions of the Israeli's in Gaza and while your at it why not take a stab at the real point I was making in the above post,
as to what could only be described as silent justification on what is clearly a terrorist act on the innocent people of Russia from the
human rights activists ::) we have amongst us ...ye know the handful I'm talking about, right? ;)
Or perhaps this discussion board, with its myriad of topics, has led some of us to go off and start studying why the Chechen people want independence rather than jump in with opinions. I, for one, know very little about that region, other than having heard on countless occasions that it has been a "troublespot" for many generations. So, if I get a chance I will try to source stuff from differing opinions and sources. We wouldn't want to take the standard line now, would we, TO?
And before you continue to castigate any and every Muslim on the planet, have you ever bothered to research the Balkans conflict of 1992 onwards? Have you any idea about Indonesia? What about Malaysia? No? Thought not!
Quote
Or perhaps this discussion board, with its myriad of topics, has led some of us to go off and start studying why the Chechen people want independence rather than jump in with opinions.
The arrogance around here is nothing short of astounding... Tell me how you could ever make a judgment call like that regarding someone you've never met ???
QuoteI, for one, know very little about that region, other than having heard on countless occasions that it has been a "troublespot" for many generations.
What part of the exact same opinion didn't you get from my post on Luke Harding's sensationalist reporting ::)
QuoteWe wouldn't want to take the standard line now, would we, TO?
And I get berated for insulting sarcasm :-\ ....and what pray tell would the
standard line be?
QuoteAnd before you continue to castigate any and every Muslim on the planet
Point out where I started so I'll know where I shouldn't continue from ???
Quotehave you ever bothered to research the Balkans conflict of 1992 onwards? Have you any idea about Indonesia? What about Malaysia? No? Thought not!
More arrogance through condescension...Well I've been to and spent time in two of the three regions you mention, what exactly is you're asking me :-\
"what exactly is you're asking me"
Ever been in a Turkish prison? ;)