I went along to the game last night in Newry between Down and Meath. It was a great spectacle under lights drawing a very large crowd for a Valentines weekend night. However yet again I was annoyed at the complete lack of accountability in the financial process of entrance fees.
There were long queues at the turn-styles at when I handed over £26 for two passes no tickets / stubs / receipts were handed back to me. How can they keep track of the cash in such circumstances? It is illegal not to issue receipts. No business would operate like this. I would have grave concerns over the audit trail of such cash receivables.
This is in direct contrast to a hurling game I attended in Toomevara back in the summer 2009. There for a county championship game there were groups of two officials. One official would take the money from you and issue 2 stubs. 15 yards further into the ground another official would take one of the stubbs from you leaving you with one stubb as a receipt. This gave me the confidence that steps were being taken to close the gaps in accountability and validatiion of attendances and cash receipts. However you go to a "County" game and absolutely nothing is in place. It leaves me to conclude that it is either corrupt management or incompetent management but either way it is pretty poor stuff.
Anyone got any other experiences from this weekend's National League games?
Authorites would have you believe it is a "tax friendly" setup.
You're just going to have to trust them. The most unaccountable and easily accesible money for years was in the clubs and especially in the North was no way anyone would call in the police if someone was dipping a wee bit here and a wee bit there until was a lot... very difficult to deal with... (am speaking generally here.. it has happened tho)
Quote from: longrunsthefox on February 14, 2010, 05:18:53 PM
You're just going to have to trust them. The most unaccountable and easily accesible money for years was in the clubs and especially in the North was no way anyone would call in the police if someone was dipping a wee bit here and a wee bit there until was a lot... very difficult to deal with... (am speaking generally here.. it has happened tho)
I don't think anyone would call in the police to their club now either.
I disagree - it can be dealt with if there is a will to deal with it - as my experience in Toomevara goes to show.
however this is a National League fixture i.e. a central GAA competition. By my reckoning there were at least 5,000 people there last night. It was £13 or 15 Euro in each with reductions for students and OAPs and terrace. But at an average of 10 Euros per head there should be 50K brought in last night. However guys on the gate thake thier cut, then the host club take their cut then county officials take their cut then the official unofficial county board cut takes place before a sum is declared. Now this is the cynical view however with a transparent system then the cynics cannot be disproved.
FFS, half the receipts would go missing, even if they were issued.
Now if the turnstiles clicked and recorded every entrant, that would be suffice.
T Fearon - if the tickets / stubbs issued go in sequential order then they cannot "disappear" or if they did it would be irrelevant
Quote from: pintsofguinness on February 14, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on February 14, 2010, 05:18:53 PM
You're just going to have to trust them. The most unaccountable and easily accesible money for years was in the clubs and especially in the North was no way anyone would call in the police if someone was dipping a wee bit here and a wee bit there until was a lot... very difficult to deal with... (am speaking generally here.. it has happened tho)
I don't think anyone would call in the police to their club now either.
true enough... I wouldn't want to.
Think £13 is a bit steep. £10 would be plenty.
Quote from: longrunsthefox on February 14, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on February 14, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on February 14, 2010, 05:18:53 PM
You're just going to have to trust them. The most unaccountable and easily accesible money for years was in the clubs and especially in the North was no way anyone would call in the police if someone was dipping a wee bit here and a wee bit there until was a lot... very difficult to deal with... (am speaking generally here.. it has happened tho)
I don't think anyone would call in the police to their club now either.
true enough... I wouldn't want to.
No, you run the risk of destroying the club in the eyes of the community, maybe permanently, and damaging the GAA. Nevermind the rows and fall out after it. Far more worrying than the possibility of someone lifting a few pound while doing the gate imo
Quote from: pintsofguinness on February 14, 2010, 08:19:20 PM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on February 14, 2010, 08:03:21 PM
Quote from: pintsofguinness on February 14, 2010, 05:22:44 PM
Quote from: longrunsthefox on February 14, 2010, 05:18:53 PM
You're just going to have to trust them. The most unaccountable and easily accesible money for years was in the clubs and especially in the North was no way anyone would call in the police if someone was dipping a wee bit here and a wee bit there until was a lot... very difficult to deal with... (am speaking generally here.. it has happened tho)
I don't think anyone would call in the police to their club now either.
true enough... I wouldn't want to.
No, you run the risk of destroying the club in the eyes of the community, maybe permanently, and damaging the GAA. Nevermind the rows and fall out after it. Far more worrying than the possibility of someone lifting a few pound while doing the gate imo
You are missing my point.
I am saying that the whole process is either corrupt or incompetent and the GAA at a central level is complicit is allowing it to continue. Moreover it opens the GAA to the prospect of a very damaging Tax investigation at some point which would be highly damaging.
I have it on very good authority that this was one of the very sacred cows that Howard Wells was trying to slay in the IFA and was ousted because of it. Continuing to do nothing about this leaves us very exposed as an organisation
ah I know what you mean and you have a point alright.
Just saying that clubs are in vulnerable position too.
There should be accountability and financial probity in all organisations, never mind a multi million pound operation like the GAA, and oit seems to be amateurish in terms of financial collections etc. I mean its not that long ago that an Ulster Official was stopped and robbed in broad dayliight on a main thoroughfare outside Dungannon when he was coveying the gate receipts of an Ulster semi final. How silly was that?
Yet surely the gaa's accounts are independently audited annually aong with the control systems etc, so presumably the current systems have been approved, so maybe there are control systems in terms of gate receipts that we are not aware of
Are there turnstiles in Newry which would keep track of the attendance at the game?
Or is it just a case of handing over the ticket price at the gate and walking in?
At most if not all County grounds, you are required to go through a stile. The question is does the stile record every entrant?
I would be surprised if there is not some system of financial control as a fundamental part of the GAA's Corporate Governance Policy.
Quote from: Tomorrow is another day on February 14, 2010, 05:11:18 PM
I went along to the game last night in Newry between Down and Meath. It was a great spectacle under lights drawing a very large crowd for a Valentines weekend night. However yet again I was annoyed at the complete lack of accountability in the financial process of entrance fees.
There were long queues at the turn-styles at when I handed over £26 for two passes no tickets / stubs / receipts were handed back to me. How can they keep track of the cash in such circumstances? It is illegal not to issue receipts. No business would operate like this. I would have grave concerns over the audit trail of such cash receivables.
This is in direct contrast to a hurling game I attended in Toomevara back in the summer 2009. There for a county championship game there were groups of two officials. One official would take the money from you and issue 2 stubs. 15 yards further into the ground another official would take one of the stubbs from you leaving you with one stubb as a receipt. This gave me the confidence that steps were being taken to close the gaps in accountability and validatiion of attendances and cash receipts. However you go to a "County" game and absolutely nothing is in place. It leaves me to conclude that it is either corrupt management or incompetent management but either way it is pretty poor stuff.
Anyone got any other experiences from this weekend's National League games?
its a joke and ive posted about it a few times on here, if the gaa want to get some extra money they could start by cutting out the opportunity to fiddle. going into munster championship games in killarney with stacks of kids i have bargained with the guy on the stile and got a reduction. how can he do that?
(http://www.tenpencepiece.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/100_00182.jpg)
If I was one of the boys collecting vast sums of money at these events year in year out, I would be making sure that systems would be in place so that no one could throw accusations about me pocketing money. No one has been able to properly explain why this wouldn't cross them minds of the boys that actually do it. Surely their integrity is at risk without some level of control?
Turnstiles can give you attendance figures but not revenue
I think this debate is so important it should move from the Board to Congress.In my line of work I see people who were pillars of the community but when things were a bit tight or a relative was ill or they felt their contribution wasn't recognised etc etc.- I've heard them all.People are human- I hate bureaucracy as much as the next person, and recognise that our association is based on the volunteer ethos, but we need clear and transparent systems for money.
The worst example I ever saw was in Downpatrick 4 years ago for a Mc Kenna cup game between Down and Antrim. A larger than expected crowd turned out on a dog dirty January day and a lone official, without even a satchel , was stuffing tenners and twenties into his pocket while giving out change.I am not saying he was dipping but it was the height of nonsense. Like TIAD I saw the receipt system working clearly in Cusack Park ,Ennis, in 1992 when there were notices everywhere stating that everyone should get a receipt and asking punters to report to a desk if they hadn't received one.The Skull is right- we all have a responsibility to target the elephant in the room.
Guys - I am delighted to see that I am not just the only one concerned about these matters, and as suggested above everyone is tarnished by poor systems as all volunteers operate under a cloud of suspicion.
This matter needs to be escalated and dealt with adequately. But it is a top down approach that is needed and can only work. Turkeys dont vote for Christmas so I do not see a club and in turn county sticking their head above the parapet here and drawing undue attention and ill will from other clubs and counties and dare I say it.... county officials.
Quote from: T Fearon on February 14, 2010, 10:01:48 PM
There should be accountability and financial probity in all organisations, never mind a multi million pound operation like the GAA, and oit seems to be amateurish in terms of financial collections etc. I mean its not that long ago that an Ulster Official was stopped and robbed in broad dayliight on a main thoroughfare outside Dungannon when he was coveying the gate receipts of an Ulster semi final. How silly was that?
Yet surely the gaa's accounts are independently audited annually aong with the control systems etc, so presumably the current systems have been approved, so maybe there are control systems in terms of gate receipts that we are not aware of
That was very silly in hindsight, but hard to predict at the time. It's poss it's still going on in other provinces where one man brings the takings home. Lucky it was Antrim v Cavan (I think), so was before Antrim hit the big time and had the big crowds.
It was. Thanks sir.
24/6/07 it happened.
The club final in 2004 was the same - not a receipt in sight - i told peter mckenna about it, I can't remember the response exactly, but he wasn't overly concerned!!
Does anyone know who the auditors of the GAA are?
Quote from: T Fearon on February 15, 2010, 02:15:22 PM
At most if not all County grounds, you are required to go through a stile. The question is does the stile record every entrant?
I would be surprised if there is not some system of financial control as a fundamental part of the GAA's Corporate Governance Policy.
The free admission for u16s would skew the figures rendering them worthless anyway.
Lads, this is the GAA we are talking about, I doubt that they would leave much if any scope for funds of any description being misappropriated!
The risk is surely no greater than employees handling cash in any business, and no matter how robust the control systems are someone with intent will find a way to embezzle if they are so inclined.
I imagine if there is any fraud, its neglible.
Quote from: T Fearon on February 16, 2010, 02:10:40 PM
Lads, this is the GAA we are talking about, I doubt that they would leave much if any scope for funds of any description being misappropriated!
The risk is surely no greater than employees handling cash in any business, and no matter how robust the control systems are someone with intent will find a way to embezzle if they are so inclined.
I imagine if there is any fraud, its neglible.
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D
Well have you any proof/evidence? I believe that the vast majority of people on the gates taking cash are trustworthy gaels, appointed to that position due to their proven trustworthiness and reliability. Thats not to say that I believe there has never been a pound or two that has gone missing, but until I see concrete evidence of widespread or even significant fraud, I will not yield to the popular perception that they are all on the make.
In any event, how can we trust those who control the really big money at GAA Headquarters, provincial council, County or Club level, not to be misappropriating funds, awarding contracts to their cronies for backhanders etc
Who next do you want the spotlight to be fixed on? Church collectors, Salvation Army, St Vincent De Paul Society?
Quote from: T Fearon on February 16, 2010, 05:02:01 PM
Well have you any proof/evidence? I believe that the vast majority of people on the gates taking cash are trustworthy gaels, appointed to that position due to their proven trustworthiness and reliability. Thats not to say that I believe there has never been a pound or two that has gone missing, but until I see concrete evidence of widespread or even significant fraud, I will not yield to the popular perception that they are all on the make.
In any event, how can we trust those who control the really big money at GAA Headquarters, provincial council, County or Club level, not to be misappropriating funds, awarding contracts to their cronies for backhanders etc
Who next do you want the spotlight to be fixed on? Church collectors, Salvation Army, St Vincent De Paul Society?
This is the very point. While we have wholly inadequate processes then every person is under suspicion and it would be impossible for them to prove an innocence. Therefore the onus should be on the organisation at a national and central level as well at a provincial and county level to have systems and processes beyond reproach
At a Mayo club championship, a man from Cill Chomain club, I think was walking in with my father... He demanded a stub to say he was at the game. The man on the gate spent around 5 minutes checking the bag and gave him an old stub from one of the earlier years. I think that the system in Omagh was great on sunday where everyone HAD to have a ticket to get to the stand. Makes sense.
Tomorrow is another day, it is usually the other way round, ie innocent until proven guilty. Currently you are efectively libelling every single person who mans GAA turnstiles, without a shred of evidence.
By the way the only unseemly incident I have witnessed at GAA turnstiles occurred a couple of years ago, when a gate was opened for a well known GAA personality and his whole family, and they were admitted free gratis to a NFL game. But even that is far removed from pocketing cash paid by punters.
As I said before the GAA has always been shall we say careful with money, so I would be surprised if robust systems are not already in place in terms of gate receipts
T Fearon - But they are not in place. I blind man can see that. In some rare occassions as noted by contributors here a systems appears to be in place, however on the vast majority of cases it does not.
How do you know what is and what is not in place? For all you or I know there could be hidden cameras, spot checks etc etc. I would be confident that there is a system in place for recording and verifying cash receipts, just like there is in all businesses.
Think there might be a legal issue here, certainly in the 6 counties anyway. You could scrutinize this under contract law, the ticket/stub is exchanged for the cash in lieu of the game, bit like a bus ticket.
So Fearon, you're saying grounds would invest in hidden cameras before a round of ticket stubs? Even a raffle book would work in theory. We know from experience of handing over money and not receiving a stub, its not an issue of small scale corruption, more a legal issue.
Petty, in my opinion, and for what its worth, all entrants to Crossmaglen on Sunday were given tickets at the stiles, even season ticket holders.
Why create unnecessary expense and further bureaucracy. If there is no evidence that its broke why fix it?
Quote from: T Fearon on February 17, 2010, 09:45:09 AM
Petty, in my opinion, and for what its worth, all entrants to Crossmaglen on Sunday were given tickets at the stiles, even season ticket holders.
Why create unnecessary expense and further bureaucracy. If there is no evidence that its broke why fix it?
No they weren't.
Quote from: Minder on February 14, 2010, 05:12:38 PM
Authorites would have you believe it is a "tax friendly" setup.
Like Minder says it's more likely a tax friendly system, if you are to start accounting for every penny in and out then you might have to start auditing the managers 'petrol money' and all the other expenses incurred by county officials etc. then you would really be opening up a can of worms. I've been to Down games in the past in Clones where on the radio home the commentator has said there was 12127 (I'm not that sad to remember the exact number) at the ground. I didn't do a count but I would be fairly confident the 12127 was a bit on the conservative side.
AFS, I was given a ticket on Sunday as was everyone else who entered at the stiles as far as I could see.
QuoteI believe that the vast majority of people on the gates taking cash are trustworthy gaels, appointed to that position due to their proven trustworthiness and reliability.
If they're appointed to that position as you say, then should they not be aware that the purchaser, in any above-board financial transaction is entitled to a receipt of payment?
I imagine they act in accordance with orders from the GAA. Therefore if they're told not to issue receipts than they don't do so, or maybe a better way of putting this, if they're not told to issue receipts then they don't do so.
What next? Should the programme sellers issue a receipt for each sale?, the hamburger and other fast food stall operators? Buskers? St Michael's Band members when they come round with the tins at Clones?
Quote from: T Fearon on February 16, 2010, 05:02:01 PM
Well have you any proof/evidence? I believe that the vast majority of people on the gates taking cash are trustworthy gaels, appointed to that position due to their proven trustworthiness and reliability. Thats not to say that I believe there has never been a pound or two that has gone missing, but until I see concrete evidence of widespread or even significant fraud, I will not yield to the popular perception that they are all on the make.
In any event, how can we trust those who control the really big money at GAA Headquarters, provincial council, County or Club level, not to be misappropriating funds, awarding contracts to their cronies for backhanders etc
Who next do you want the spotlight to be fixed on? Church collectors, Salvation Army, St Vincent De Paul Society?
That is so naive, Tony! It is like saying "Priests are so holy none of them would ever abuse a child"
"Thats not to say that I believe there has never been a pound or two that has gone missing, but until I see concrete evidence of widespread or even significant fraud, I will not yield to the popular perception that they are all on the make"
Read the above extract of my oroginal comments Western Exile. What I need to see is widesoread evidence of fraud.
Quote from: T Fearon on February 17, 2010, 12:17:37 PM
AFS, I was given a ticket on Sunday as was everyone else who entered at the stiles as far as I could see.
Well I didn't get one.
Some of the experiences I've had at stiles would lead me to believe that a lot of the time the man on the gate can do what he wants. I've had prices made up on the spot several times, and even been let in for free once because they had no change.
Quote from: AFS on February 17, 2010, 12:56:45 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on February 17, 2010, 12:17:37 PM
AFS, I was given a ticket on Sunday as was everyone else who entered at the stiles as far as I could see.
Well I didn't get one.
Some of the experiences I've had at stiles would lead me to believe that a lot of the time the man on the gate can do what he wants. I've had prices made up on the spot several times, and even been let in for free once because they had no change.
Either did I or anybody entering at the time that I was.
I've no doubt that prices are made up on the spot, I remember going into Hyde Park some years back to a match and queueing for a student ticket, a local Rossie of about 50 years of age was laughing and joking about being a student but paid the student rate. I produced my UUJ student card and the fcuker who had let the Rossie in refused to accept the student card and demanded the full entrance money!! >:( >:(
Quote from: T Fearon on February 17, 2010, 12:34:42 PM
I imagine they act in accordance with orders from the GAA. Therefore if they're told not to issue receipts than they don't do so, or maybe a better way of putting this, if they're not told to issue receipts then they don't do so.
What next? Should the programme sellers issue a receipt for each sale?, the hamburger and other fast food stall operators? Buskers? St Michael's Band members when they come round with the tins at Clones?
You've missed the point. When you hand over money for a programme you get a programme in hand. When you hand over cash you get a burger in hand.
Like a bus, when you pay money you receive a ticket in lieu of the journey that the bus provide. Similar for the cinema. Why shouldn't a GAA game be the same? Especially they're charging £13. It's a contract.
Quote from: AFS on February 17, 2010, 12:56:45 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on February 17, 2010, 12:17:37 PM
AFS, I was given a ticket on Sunday as was everyone else who entered at the stiles as far as I could see.
Well I didn't get one.
Some of the experiences I've had at stiles would lead me to believe that a lot of the time the man on the gate can do what he wants. I've had prices made up on the spot several times, and even been let in for free once because they had no change.
I've been let in for free several times because I know the fella on the gate. :D
I availed of similar perks at discos etc 30 years go, but it hardly constitutes widespread fraud. As I said I observed a well known GAA personality and his entire family (every breed and seed, must have been about 20) being admitted to an NFL game two years ago, and it was an away game at that!
Doubt if you'd get into a Championship game as handy.
This is far from the insinuation at the heart of this thread though, that gatemen are stealing money.
Tony you are being unbelievably naive, the elephant in the room is a perfect way to describe this.
As an example, one of my kids came up to me last summer at a local club championship game with a roll of money in his hand (happy days says I ;D) saying he found it in the turnstiles where they had been playing. I took him down and asked him to show me where it had been and he pointed to a small nook in the blockwork just below a shelf. He said it was stuck in there. I handed it in at the club house and it was announced but a club official since told me that it was never claimed.
Now it didn't just fall in there, I reckon it was the gate man's wee payday. I know the man and he has been doing the gate at this club for years which begs the obvious question.
I have also heard stories about officials taking the gate money to the pub and enjoying a few of the best on the back of the paying punters but they are only human after all :) :)
Tony, You are being over defensive here. While you can never eliminate risk, the GAA has a duty to minimise it, in all aspects of it's operations. As I said in my original post, I'm not into bureaucracy but it seems to me that apart from a few places, the situation has actually got worse.
For the good of all, a simple system would address all the concerms expressed here.
Tony are you on the take yourself?
Why are you so defensive - all anyone is asking for is a little transparency into the gate takings of their hard earned money. Dont forget things are tight for everyone, so people certainly want to make sure money they are spending is going where it supposed to go.
All we are asking for here is a top down approach to good cash management systems so that punters like ourselves know when we pay in to games that our hard earned money is recorded properly and going to its intended home. This should be a code of conduct that is applied across all county and club games and people should be encouraged to report instances where this did not occur.
I agree. But at the same time, casting aspersions on the current modus operandi and in particular on individuals is dangerous, particularly without any evidence of wrongdoing (and I'm not talking about letting the odd mate or two in for free).
I am still fairly confident that systems are in place and as in the cash of all cash management operations, it would be foolish to divulge exactly what these are, for obvious reasons.
So Tony, do you think it unfair that all priests now have to make sure that they are not left alone in the company of children? After all it was only a relatively small number of child abusing priests. They're not all deviants.
Or given the fact that the church want to make sure that priests don't get themselves into situations where they could be accused of any wrong doing, they now have issued new child protection guildlines to protect the children as well as the integrity of the priests themselves? And wouldn't you think that all well intentioned priests would welcome these moves?
Skull, several priests were convicted of child abuse and the church is in the dock.Why? Because concrete evidence came to light of the wrongdoing.
Has any such evidence come to light of serious fraud at the turnstiles? Has there ever been an individual convicted of such?
The way the world works, is that loss due to fraud, carelessness etc is identified, and systems are subsequently reviewed and amended appropriately to reduce the risk of recurrence.
I would therefore assume that the GAA is happy with its current systems, and these have been endorsed by its Auditors.
Why not contact the GAA with your concerns and lets see how they respond. I suspect they will say as I am saying that there is no evidence of any wrongdoing.
Tony, you hace constantly harped onto auditors and there reliance on systems etc. Thats poppy wash and I'd have thought you'd have known that.
For instance, I have the latest set of accounts from the Monaghan county board. It has a disclaimer stating the the majority of funds is derived from gate receipts and fundraising activities and the accurancy of this cannot be fully controlled as they derived from cash and therefore not susceptable to independent audit verification.
Overall the audit report is very, very light, nowhere near as detailed as limited company.
There is very little control bar the big games. No-one is suggesting every man on the gate is on the take but it is the reponsibility of the GAA to have systems in place to remove the risk of fraud and remove the threat of a person committing fraud now or in the future. Accepting cash on one manned turnstyles is very weak in my eyes, your talk of camera's in turnstyles, spot checks etc is poor if the money is already in a mans pocket or passed back out through the turnstyles.
Agree with you, but how do you know systems are not already in place?
Quote from: T Fearon on February 18, 2010, 03:31:01 PM
Agree with you, but how do you know systems are not already in place?
Because of the two examples I have set out above.
Quote from: Franko on February 18, 2010, 05:45:17 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on February 18, 2010, 03:31:01 PM
Agree with you, but how do you know systems are not already in place?
Because of the two examples I have set out above.
Tony you are being disproportionately defensive. The analogy with priests is very good. Volunteers dealing with cash at gates or wherever should consider are they being put in a compromising position i.e. without a system or and a second or even third person to validate the cash collection process. Also there should be a code of conduct laid down by the Central Committee to the county boards and in turn onto clubs highlighting best practice.
Lets be honest our organise has always been excellent at collecting and handling money so the degree of deficiency in this instance would tend to suggest that they do not want to tackle and address the matter. A bit like that other thorny topic of paying managers at club and county level.
I have not yet seen or been provided with evidence of widespread corruption or fraud, but I am all for good quality systems to enhance efficiency and control, and agree that these also produce security and safety for volunteers/staff.
On a couple of occasions I've gone through a stile where the next person in line knew the turnstile operator and got in for the price of a wink.
It is interesting that some counties have moved towards the system of buying your ticket at a booth first instead of cash at the stile.
Someone involved in one particular county told me about when their county ground brought in this system.
Suddenly several great gaels and pillars of the community were no longer so eager to give up their free time to man the stiles when cash wasn't being taken. Coincidence maybe?
Personally I look forward to the day when you enter a ground with the swipe of your season ticket or your laser card and there is no cash handling involved.
Anybody got any positive experiences from this weekend showing good Gate Receipt processes??