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ICTU have organised a National Day of Protest for Friday to protest the Govt's handling of the economic crisis. Marches will be held in 8 town and city centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Sligo, Tullamore, and Dundalk.

Details here: http://www.getupstandup.ie/getinvolved/nationaldayofaction/ (http://www.getupstandup.ie/getinvolved/nationaldayofaction/)

Over on Slugger O'Toole, Mack argues that the unions have been in denial but that they are beginning to smell the coffee. Not everyone agrees with him. Here's a link to the story: http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/end-of-the-denial-phase/ (http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/end-of-the-denial-phase/)

Union leaders appear to favour cuts in the number of public servants rather than cuts in pay. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/partnership.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/partnership.html)

Will you be supporting the Day of Protest?

The day of protest may not achieve much on it's own but the alternative is to sit on our arses and let the Govt and employers screw us over and over agian.

I for one support it out of total frustration but I wont be out in Limerick on Friday because Im still in a job. Why didnt they have the protest on a Saturday or Sunday?

once anyone out on protest is cut a days pay or has their annual leave deducted by half a day i dont mind who protests.....

Quote from: Lecale2 on November 03, 2009, 07:41:04 PM
ICTU have organised a National Day of Protest for Friday to protest the Govt's handling of the economic crisis. Marches will be held in 8 town and city centres - Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, Waterford, Sligo, Tullamore, and Dundalk.

Details here: http://www.getupstandup.ie/getinvolved/nationaldayofaction/ (http://www.getupstandup.ie/getinvolved/nationaldayofaction/)

Over on Slugger O'Toole, Mack argues that the unions have been in denial but that they are beginning to smell the coffee. Not everyone agrees with him. Here's a link to the story: http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/end-of-the-denial-phase/ (http://sluggerotoole.com/index.php/weblog/comments/end-of-the-denial-phase/)

Union leaders appear to favour cuts in the number of public servants rather than cuts in pay. http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/partnership.html (http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/1103/partnership.html)

Will you be supporting the Day of Protest?

Thing has messed up my graduation. Was supposed to be this Friday, with people having booked flights home from all over the world. Had to be moved to next Tuesday. Absolute joke.

Quote from: Tankie on November 04, 2009, 11:41:01 AM
once anyone out on protest is cut a days pay or has their annual leave deducted by half a day i dont mind who protests.....

X2

I have very little respect for the the public sector so I wouldnt be supporting the protest.

The words Responsibility and Initiative are not in their vocabulary.
Take it from someone who worked in a hospital for 4.5 years and have 2 public servants in my immediate family (and at least 8 in my close extended family).

I work long hours, am underpaid and took a pay cut in the private sector.
I get 21 Days holidays a year and have to produce a doctors cert if I am sick
I havent taken a sick day in 3 years and the public service average 11 in a year.
I am proud to work in the private sector and would either die of boredom or kill myself out of frustration if I had have to work in the public sector.

Im not arguing the the public sector are overpaid, but they are under worked.
The public service get two weeks uncertified sick leave, work up time and days in leiu and get ridiculous holidays. Often they dont even work a 40 hour week.

I know of a department the rang the Office of Public Works to come in on a Saturday, on overtime, to change the clocks... nobody in the department would bother even changing the clocks forward an hour.
Disgrace.

The whole public sector culture needs to be taken on.
Stop "privilage days" or uncertified leave
Inforce proper 40 hour weeks
Stop stupid expenditure like non-working allowances gardai for being on holidays
Acknowledge and encourage initiative
Enforce responsibility at all levels
Increase the retirement age
etc

Typical Irish peasant attitude. The country is robbed blind by politicians, bankers and developers and when someone tries to organise a bit of opposition all we get is the navel-gazing béal bocht.

My sister works in the Local hospital.She is not HSE staff,she is employed by an agency and she works for about half of what HSE staff doing the same job get.
She had to work with one of the main line managers from the HSE a few weeks ago filing records.My sister knowing what the manager was like said she would watch what exactly she did. My sister started at 9am. Her Manager came in at 10.30am,took a tea break at 11.05am. Came back from tea at 11.50am. Signed off 2 Death certs.Rang a clothes store in another town to check if an item she had ordered had come in. Rang her husband to say she was taking a half day.Went for lunch at 12.30.That was what consisted of a HSE Managers FULL day. These people can't be fired.
We wonder where the Country is going wrong.

I don't agree with the Unions but one thing you have to hand them, like Mary Harney, they are doing what they are supposed to do. Unions are supposed to keep people in jobs and get them as much pay as possible (Harney is closing down our public health service).

Only the insane or uninformed among us would contend the government have handled the economic crisis well. Many would contend (including myself) they are the reason why it is far worse than it had to be and why we are close to having IMF intervention. For this reason I think the people should take a stand. The vehicle might be an improper one but THIS message needs to go out to those in power and the world beyond - "we're in shit and we'll do what's necessary to fix it - but not at the behest of the traitors who have got us here".

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 04, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
I don't agree with the Unions but one thing you have to hand them, like Mary Harney, they are doing what they are supposed to do. Unions are supposed to keep people in jobs and get them as much pay as possible (Harney is closing down our public health service).

And when it's clear that keeping both wages and jobs is impossible?  I don't see any unions offering a third way. Where are the unions offering wide ranging cost savings and improvement in efficiency?

I don't support it despite being a teacher! How would 40 hours work in a school though? Really, like you COULD let children off early and force teachers to work extra hours but what would most teachers do?

Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 04, 2009, 05:10:06 PM
I don't support it despite being a teacher! How would 40 hours work in a school though? Really, like you COULD let children off early and force teachers to work extra hours but what would most teachers do?

Marking and grading? Teachers are always complaining about doing this at home .  Or perhaps sports or after school sort of things .

I'm on about primary schools though, where there's not as much marking and grading to be done. And most female teachers I know don't 'do' sports.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 04, 2009, 05:06:23 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 04, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
I don't agree with the Unions but one thing you have to hand them, like Mary Harney, they are doing what they are supposed to do. Unions are supposed to keep people in jobs and get them as much pay as possible (Harney is closing down our public health service).

And when it's clear that keeping both wages and jobs is impossible?  I don't see any unions offering a third way. Where are the unions offering wide ranging cost savings and improvement in efficiency?

That's what management are supposed to do. You know, those people in big offices who have friends in Fianna Fáil that got them the jobs in the big offices doing nothing and milking the State financially for it. Even you can't expect Unions to do managements job for them, no matter how incompetent said management is?

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 04, 2009, 02:30:55 PM
I have very little respect for the the public sector so I wouldnt be supporting the protest.

The words Responsibility and Initiative are not in their vocabulary.
Take it from someone who worked in a hospital for 4.5 years and have 2 public servants in my immediate family (and at least 8 in my close extended family).

I work long hours, am underpaid and took a pay cut in the private sector.
I get 21 Days holidays a year and have to produce a doctors cert if I am sick
I havent taken a sick day in 3 years and the public service average 11 in a year.
I am proud to work in the private sector and would either die of boredom or kill myself out of frustration if I had have to work in the public sector.

Im not arguing the the public sector are overpaid, but they are under worked.
The public service get two weeks uncertified sick leave, work up time and days in leiu and get ridiculous holidays. Often they dont even work a 40 hour week.

I know of a department the rang the Office of Public Works to come in on a Saturday, on overtime, to change the clocks... nobody in the department would bother even changing the clocks forward an hour.
Disgrace.

The whole public sector culture needs to be taken on.
Stop "privilage days" or uncertified leave
Inforce proper 40 hour weeks
Stop stupid expenditure like non-working allowances gardai for being on holidays
Acknowledge and encourage initiative
Enforce responsibility at all levels
Increase the retirement age
etc

Excellent post - not all your own work I'd suggest though.  ;)

I know it was posted here a while back but Michael O'Leary's stance on the matter is admirable if not a little over-simplistic.

http://audioserver.todayfm.com/audio/MichaelOLeary2909.mp3

Quote from: Farrandeelin on November 04, 2009, 05:17:41 PM
I'm on about primary schools though, where there's not as much marking and grading to be done. And most female teachers I know don't 'do' sports.

Any reason teachers can't clock in and out ?  Be paid for what you work?

Quote from: Donagh on November 04, 2009, 03:16:39 PM
Typical Irish peasant attitude. The country is robbed blind by politicians, bankers and developers and when someone tries to organise a bit of opposition all we get is the navel-gazing béal bocht.

I think you'd find, Donagh that if the "day of protest" was billed as a protest against the behaviour of the politicians, bankers and developers, 75% of the population would march. But it's not that, is it? It's an even worse kind of "Irish peasant attitude" - "I've got it nice and cushy, I can't be fired, what I have I hold and f*** off if you think I give a shite about your private sector cuts, redundancies and layoffs. At least that's what my six-figure-salaried union leader (who, ironically, enjoys the best of both worlds) led me out here to say".

Give them the same f**king choice the Private sector has. Drop your pay or lose your job.

In my work people are ringing in when they aren't well and saying they'll take the day as holidays instead of as a sick day because we're all so terrified to be next on the chopping block, and don't wanna be giving anyone a reason to look poorly upon us!

Public sector workers looking for a pay rise in the current climate when they are already overpaid and held accountable for nothing makes me f**king sick.

One of the public sector Union representatives actually said that the government should raise taxes to all instead of cutting the public sector pay bill. So I as a private sector worker not only have to swallow my 10% pay cut, I have to pay more tax too so as to fund some other peoples' lives? f**k That!

I think we should have a national day of protest against the public sector for taking the f**king piss!

We'd have to have it on a Sunday though- we'll be working every other day!

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 04, 2009, 02:30:55 PM
I have very little respect for the the public sector .
The public service get two weeks uncertified sick leave,

Hope you tell  the Doctor /Nurse in A & E or the Ambulance Driver that you have no respect for them when your turn comes.

Where can people take 2 weeks uncertified sick leave ???? :o

It's two days at a time max and only a total of seven in a year.

The IBECs and the well heeled cnuts who effed up this country have done their work well.
Instead of trying to keep decent conditions for all workers it's now a case one lot of workers wanting to drag everyone down to the lowest level imposed by IBEC.

Quote from: Donagh on November 04, 2009, 03:16:39 PM
Typical Irish peasant attitude. The country is robbed blind by public sector, politicians, bankers and developers and when someone tries to organise a bit of opposition all we get is the navel-gazing béal bocht.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 04, 2009, 06:47:31 PM

Quote from: Donagh on November 04, 2009, 03:16:39 PM
Typical Irish peasant attitude. The country is robbed blind by public sector, politicians, bankers and developers and when someone tries to organise a bit of opposition all we get is the navel-gazing béal bocht.

Absolutely

We dont have the freedom to devalue our currency or adjust interest rates any more. So we need to simulate the effect that those measures would have.
 
We need to see a general reduction of costs in the economy in order to improve competitiveness and boost employment - leading to economic growth and recovery - in so far as recovery is possible given the massive debt that FF have saddeled us with.     

The measures include cuts in: 
-Public sector costs (salary bill & general expenditure)
-Social welfare payments & minimum wage
-Service charges
-Energy costs
-Legal and accountancy fees 
-Medical consultancy and GP fees
-General goods and food costs
-A reduction in personal debt (who will pay for this crucial component?)

When the general public and many on this thread have let go of the unfair and prejudiced anger-driven vendetta against ordinary decent hard-working public sector workers all the other issues will have to be tackled too.     

Jack o connor SIPTU on Pat Kenny's Frontline show on Monday came across as an absolute tosser with his self contradictions.

Quote from: pk205 on November 04, 2009, 10:35:20 PM
We dont have the freedom to devalue our currency or adjust interest rates any more. So we need to simulate the effect that those measures would have.

We need to see a general reduction of costs in the economy in order to improve competitiveness and boost employment - leading to economic growth and recovery - in so far as recovery is possible given the massive debt that FF have saddeled us with.     

The measures include cuts in:
-Public sector costs (salary bill & general expenditure)
-Social welfare payments & minimum wage
-Service charges
-Energy costs
-Legal and accountancy fees
-Medical consultancy and GP fees
-General goods and food costs
-A reduction in personal debt (who will pay for this crucial component?)

When the general public and many on this thread have let go of the unfair and prejudiced anger-driven vendetta against ordinary decent hard-working public sector workers all the other issues will have to be tackled too.     

What % of Govt expenditure does each of the above represent? So far, it's only the Govt that are talking about reducing costs to meet reduce the balance of payments deficit.

Quote from: Lecale2 on November 04, 2009, 10:56:04 PM

Quote from: pk205 on November 04, 2009, 10:35:20 PM
We dont have the freedom to devalue our currency or adjust interest rates any more. So we need to simulate the effect that those measures would have.

We need to see a general reduction of costs in the economy in order to improve competitiveness and boost employment - leading to economic growth and recovery - in so far as recovery is possible given the massive debt that FF have saddeled us with.     

The measures include cuts in:
-Public sector costs (salary bill & general expenditure)
-Social welfare payments & minimum wage
-Service charges
-Energy costs
-Legal and accountancy fees
-Medical consultancy and GP fees
-General goods and food costs
-A reduction in personal debt (who will pay for this crucial component?)

When the general public and many on this thread have let go of the unfair and prejudiced anger-driven vendetta against ordinary decent hard-working public sector workers all the other issues will have to be tackled too.     

What % of Govt expenditure does each of the above represent? So far, it's only the Govt that are talking about reducing costs to meet reduce the balance of payments deficit.

If the other items are reduced it leaves room for salaries and social welfare payments to be reduced without causing an actual decrease in living standards - like a simulated devaluation of the currency. Does the government have the will or imagination to do it? Do they have the balls to take in the medical/legal etc professionals and retail sector to achieve it instead if focusing all the pressure on public sector workers and social welfare recipients.   

What you're talking about is total fantasy.

Look at food costs alone...

You're talking about food produced all over the world, by thousands of companies, the majority of which are not Irish run or owned. How can Any one government influence this. They can't!

The only alternative is to cut our cloth to suit the times we are in. Market forces in the private sector are forcing that adjustment on to private sector workers.

No such adjustment has happened in the Public sector. In fact, they want MORE!

It's crazy beyond belief, the greed is staggering! My goal is to come out the end of next year with a job, not necessarily earning as much as I was... In the current climate in a completely cut-throat industry that's not guaranteed. But here are people who have guaranteed jobs, with in many cases no ongoing  performance evaluation who want MORE!!!

It's like Monty Python sketch!

THERE IS NO SLAVE WORSE THAN THE ONE WHO LICKS HIS CHAINS. There is certainly plenty of the slave mentality evident amongst some of the responses to this thread. So keen are they to do their masters bidding that they turn on their fellow workers and those who would try to defend them. Yet not one question or critizism or question do they raise about the millions of unpaid Tax, the con that is Nama, or the fact that many employers are ruthlessly exploiting the situation to their own advantage. Not one question do they raise as to why in America,France and Germany we have seen Bankers led away in Handcuffs, while here they are rewarded. Do they ever question how deflating the economy further will aid recovery. Is public service to become something to be scorned. Are we an Economy or a Society. Dont let the bastards divide and conquer by their fostering of phoney divisions between private and public work, both are necessary and worthy of respect

So keen are they to pay their mortgage and feed themselves more like.

What we need is a "Bench-marking exercise". We haven't heard the public sector unions mention that con for a while have we?

Some of our public servants are the best paid in the western world. As a nation we need to get a grip on reality. We can't afford those level of salaries anymore.

At this point it doesn't really matter who burst our balloon. We're in the shit and we need to get out of it ASAP. We cant turn the clock back now.

The Irish private sector is like a small donkey who isn't getting enough to eat and has to carry around a huge number of lazy bastards who won't get of his back and stand on their own two feet.

If that isn't bad enough they're now beating the feckin donkey to work harder so they can get more wages and none of them will get off it's back!

The public sector needs to understand where the money to pay their wages comes from. It comes from the wealth created by the private sector and increasingly from Government borrowing. We cant go on borrowing to pay public sector salaries and social welfare benefits for ever!

At some point we have to balance the books and then start repaying the money we have borrowed.

Why was there only positive bench marking?

Quote from: ludermor on November 05, 2009, 08:49:35 AM
Why was there only positive bench marking?

Same reason there was privatisation of profits and nationalisation of losses. Greed on everyone's part, which is unfortunate but predictable and collusion in greed by the government, which is criminal and unforgivable.

In my naive world 'benchmarking' was supposed to be a system whereby public-sector pay was kept 'in line' with private sector pay, in good times and bad.  It didn't help that the unions (famously) described it as 'an ATM for the public sector worker'.  Jaysus wept.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 04, 2009, 05:20:37 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 04, 2009, 05:06:23 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 04, 2009, 05:00:12 PM
I don't agree with the Unions but one thing you have to hand them, like Mary Harney, they are doing what they are supposed to do. Unions are supposed to keep people in jobs and get them as much pay as possible (Harney is closing down our public health service).

And when it's clear that keeping both wages and jobs is impossible?  I don't see any unions offering a third way. Where are the unions offering wide ranging cost savings and improvement in efficiency?

That's what management are supposed to do. You know, those people in big offices who have friends in Fianna Fáil that got them the jobs in the big offices doing nothing and milking the State financially for it. Even you can't expect Unions to do managements job for them, no matter how incompetent said management is?

I think this is one of the real challenges facing the public service. In the private sector, it is EVERYONES job to reduce cost and improve efficiency. It's just something that is expected and is done. It's not viewed as a threat, instead it's viewed as an inherent part of every job.
If the public sector job down to business and started to focus on quality service while being efficient and cost effective, I've no doubt that there would be massive amounts of savings made. Instead however we're told that it's not their job.  ::)

Quote from: Donagh on November 04, 2009, 03:16:39 PM
Typical Irish peasant attitude. The country is robbed blind by politicians, bankers and developers and when someone tries to organise a bit of opposition all we get is the navel-gazing béal bocht.

Who the f**k are you calling a peasant? ya snob...

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 05, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Who the f**k are you calling a peasant? ya snob...

Those who are constantly winging on this board about what other people get paid instead of directing action in the appropriate place. I didn't see any of ye complain when the private sector was flying but the divide between rich and poor continued to increase, poverty increased, the border areas were neglected, homelessness increased, scuicde increased etc...

f**king traitorous peasants - don't give a shit about anyone but you and yours...

Quote from: Donagh on November 05, 2009, 12:51:38 PM

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 05, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Who the f**k are you calling a peasant? ya snob...

f**king traitorous peasants - don't give a shit about anyone but you and yours...

Thats exactly the attitude of Public Sector Unions, who have said they'd rather taxes were raised for all- including private sector workers who have already had pay DECREASES- than have their pay affected.

Me, Me, Me.

Quote from: Donagh on November 05, 2009, 12:51:38 PM

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 05, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Who the f**k are you calling a peasant? ya snob...

Those who are constantly winging on this board about what other people get paid instead of directing action in the appropriate place. I didn't see any of ye complain when the private sector was flying but the divide between rich and poor continued to increase, poverty increased, the border areas were neglected, homelessness increased, scuicde increased etc...

f**king traitorous peasants - don't give a shit about anyone but you and yours...

Come down from your high socialist horse would you .  The private sector and the public sector where equally complicate in increasing some social injustices . We all paid our taxes  and expected the government to priorities there usage as the public seen fit. In general we wanted our interested looked after . We all wanted less traffic so we got more roads and luas . We all wanted a better health service so we sunk billions in to HSE. We all had very little interest in homelessness and suicide and as such they where at the bottom of the social agenda .

Why doesn't Comrade Donagh tell us his 3rd way . By which we can keep public sector pay and conditions as they are and still save 1.4 bl or should all we expect from your is never , never ,never ! and no real solutions?

Quote from: mc_grens on November 05, 2009, 12:56:43 PM

Quote from: Donagh on November 05, 2009, 12:51:38 PM

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 05, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Who the f**k are you calling a peasant? ya snob...

f**king traitorous peasants - don't give a shit about anyone but you and yours...

Thats exactly the attitude of Public Sector Unions, who have said they'd rather taxes were raised for all- including private sector workers who have already had pay DECREASES- than have their pay affected.

Me, Me, Me.

Here! here!
Public unions are scavengers and havnt a leg to stand on in these times.

I know and am close to an Assistant Principal, HEO's, administrators and executives Gardi, nurses and teachers all of whom are in their positions on merit and are good honest public service people.

I also know ba5tard5 that dont do a tap and should may as well be wearing a balaclava as they have never done an honest days work in their lives and are practically stealing from the exchequer and yours and my pockets !!

Bankers the problem?
Administrators for administrators, consultants for more consultants... Its a merry-go-round of bloat and wastage and lack of responsibility.

Sickening

Quotebut the divide between rich and poor continued to increase, poverty increased, the border areas were neglected, homelessness increased, scuicde increased etc.

And Private Sector pay had more impact on this than Benchmarking???   ::)

Quote from: Donagh on November 05, 2009, 12:51:38 PM

Quote from: AbbeySider on November 05, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Who the f**k are you calling a peasant? ya snob...

Those who are constantly winging on this board about what other people get paid instead of directing action in the appropriate place. I didn't see any of ye complain when the private sector was flying but the divide between rich and poor continued to increase, poverty increased, the border areas were neglected, homelessness increased, scuicde increased etc...

f**king traitorous peasants - don't give a shit about anyone but you and yours...

You are so full of shit you are unreal.

I will not be supporting this greedy pack of muppets marching for pay that in the majority of cases is way above what the national average is.

Can you point to any study that shows the private sector pay was ever higher than public sector? Just cos a few builders was milking it doesn't mean that the private sector as a whole were. In the middle of the boom I worked in a medical manufacturing plant where every operator on the floor was on a list to join the civil service!

I also know that there are a huge amount of public service employees that are against this march, mainly teachers I know. I have friends and relatives in teaching and they all tell me they know how lucky they are, they know they are well paid and have loads of holidays. They are willing to make a sacrifice and are against the protest but their unions are aggressively forcing them to go on all these protests.

The only people I support on this protest are minority low paid PS workers.

Take a look at the waster union leader that are organising this too. Boyos that creamed it on the FAS board, lads on salaries of €120k minimum. Lads that are so far out of touch with the reality of what is happening that it is scary. Even more scary is eejits like you that buy this bullshit! The public service needs dramatic reform. It needs people who work hard to be rewarded and those that don't to be shown the door.

i agree with everything Myles has said. We had to tell all our lads today that they must take 200 euro a week paycut so we can be in a position to price work and have some chance of surviving. Their attitude was well we still will be better off than on the dole. Because of this we can now price work at 4 euro an hour cheaper and be more compeditive. We are in the electrical contracting business. Imagine if the public sector had to swallow something like that! The unions are completely out of touch with reality. As for the socialists on the board raving about collective workers unions and greedy no good employers, socialisim is dead world wide, even the greatest socialist of them all Jim Higgins has sold his soul and joined the EU gravy train, just like all our "noble" trade union leaders in this country with their noses in the troughs of the various quangos. At least the capitalists are up front about it.

In the same boat as you Gaeilgoir, we are currently pricing jobs at 15% below cost and not getting within an asses roar of getting them, nothing is scared at the minute and costs are being slashed across the board.

The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Sitting here in Cork airport, waiting for a flight back to Dublin, two teachers heading up to Dublin for the march tomorrow, sitting beside me. They are shiteing on about how they told their principal that the flight was at one this afternoon, and how the other teachers in the school chipped in for the flights and accomadation. But, they are going out on the batter tonight with their mates tonight in Dublin and no march for them tomorrow because they will be dying and there is seemingly a sale on in Oasis tomorrow. :D  It will be some night in coppers tonight!!!! I better ring Jack o Connor and thell him about his comrades dissent!!! And Yes i know i am a nosey f**ker!

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Maybe you are that naive.

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Maybe you are that naive.

So your saying the only thing the unions are offering a nothing!

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Why doesn't Comrade Donagh tell us his 3rd way .

March down to Leinster House and drag Cowan, Kenny and Gilmore out by the scruff of the neck and hang them from the spire by the balls. That would be the patriotic thing to do but I fear most of our national manhood would be too afraid of getting an adverse credit rating or something as result.

FFS i'm not even from the south and from what I can see on here and in the media in general the public sector workers in the south are having a laugh!

Deal in facts public servants!  You have been on the gravy train for years now it's time to pay for it.  The private sector are doing it and so should you!

I'd love to see someone in a private sector would get if they were to have the nerve/cheek/idiocy to ask for a payrise at the moment.

Quote from: Donagh on November 05, 2009, 05:37:00 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 01:03:59 PM
Why doesn't Comrade Donagh tell us his 3rd way .

March down to Leinster House and drag Cowan, Kenny and Gilmore out by the scruff of the neck and hang them from the spire by the balls. That would be the patriotic thing to do but I fear most of our national manhood would be too afraid of getting an adverse credit rating or something as result.

::)

Yeah - that sounds plausible.  Thats typical of the current public sector attitude - no real solutions but if we shout enough and create a bit of disruption we'll get our payrise and sod the rest who'll have to stump up the tax for it.  I dont care where the money comes from - I want it!  Greedy b**tards the lot of them.

I credited you with more intelligence Donagh.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 04:54:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Maybe you are that naive.

So your saying the only thing the unions are offering a nothing!

I'm saying nothing of the sort, what I am saying is you haven't the faintest idea what a union is about and that this is evident every time you comment on one.

I hope the public service do go out and protest. If the country doesnt come to a grinding halt, then we can count exactly how many of them we can do without and simply trim their number by that amount.

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 05:48:13 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 04:54:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Maybe you are that naive.

So your saying the only thing the unions are offering a nothing!

I'm saying nothing of the sort, what I am saying is you haven't the faintest idea what a union is about and that this is evident every time you comment on one.

A union is meant to protect the conditions,pay and jobs of their members in that order.

A union is meant to be smart enough to know when the Boss is taking the piss and just wants everyone to get rid of flexitime as its a pain in the ass and when the boss is on his knees begging his employees to work with him to keep jobs .

A union is meant to give up some perks and conditions to save it's members pay and jobs , a union is meant to give up more perks and some pay to save it's members jobs.

But the PS unions in Ireland know jobs are untouchable as are pretty much pay and conditions so they are refusing to help the poor f**ker who has the cheek to give them a job !

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 06:21:13 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 05:48:13 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 04:54:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Maybe you are that naive.

So your saying the only thing the unions are offering a nothing!

I'm saying nothing of the sort, what I am saying is you haven't the faintest idea what a union is about and that this is evident every time you comment on one.

A union is meant to protect the conditions,pay and jobs of their members in that order.

A union is meant to be smart enough to know when the Boss is taking the piss and just wants everyone to get rid of flexitime as its a pain in the ass and when the boss is on his knees begging his employees to work with him to keep jobs .

A union is meant to give up some perks and conditions to save it's members pay and jobs , a union is meant to give up more perks and some pay to save it's members jobs.

But the PS unions in Ireland know jobs are untouchable as are pretty much pay and conditions so they are refusing to help the poor f**ker who has the cheek to give them a job !

QED

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 06:25:20 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 06:21:13 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 05:48:13 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 04:54:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 04:11:45 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 03:40:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 03:26:51 PM
The public sector will be massacred not because it is right, not because the private sector want it to be so, but simply because we as a country are almost bankrupt.

The unions will march because that is what they are supposed to do. Despite his posts, even GNevin can't be naive enough to think that Jack O'Connor's job is to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Why would they bother being in his union when management will do that for free?

They are the realities of the situations, right and wrong is irrelevent.

When did I say it was his job to tell his members to take massive pay cuts or face redundancies. Since they are off the card (from his point of view) and tax increases are off the cards (from the government point of view and which would hit his members also) He should be selling us (meaning the government , the general public and most importantly his members) that the saving required can be achieved by a radical shake up of working practices in the PS and when he says radical he should be making it clear it's radical , no cow too sacred but no he is telling us (the government and the non PS public) that they are refusing to be part of the solution .

Maybe you are that naive.

So your saying the only thing the unions are offering a nothing!

I'm saying nothing of the sort, what I am saying is you haven't the faintest idea what a union is about and that this is evident every time you comment on one.

A union is meant to protect the conditions,pay and jobs of their members in that order.

A union is meant to be smart enough to know when the Boss is taking the piss and just wants everyone to get rid of flexitime as its a pain in the ass and when the boss is on his knees begging his employees to work with him to keep jobs .

A union is meant to give up some perks and conditions to save it's members pay and jobs , a union is meant to give up more perks and some pay to save it's members jobs.

But the PS unions in Ireland know jobs are untouchable as are pretty much pay and conditions so they are refusing to help the poor f**ker who has the cheek to give them a job !

QED

Well since you know some much about Union tell me what they are about

A Trade Union will normally strive to achieve certain goals usually contained in a constitution or mission statement or it will operate on mandates given by it's members.

A typical Trade Union will have the target of maintenance or improvement of conditions or it can have short term mandates, for example to engage with an employer on a specific issue.

QuoteA union is meant to protect the conditions,pay and jobs of their members in that order

Each union will have it's own priorities, for example some of the HSE unions place patient care as a priority (believe it or not) and these priorities can and do change with circumstances.

Expecting the unions to offer concessions on behalf of their members without exhausting all other avenues, including days of protests and/or strikes is naive. They would make themselves redundant.

Now a question for you.

While on this forum you have consistently supported Fianna Fáil's position on most things, a Yes vote for Lisbon, Shell's actions in Mayo and more recently recently NAMA, now you think it is the Unions' responsibility to direct their members to make sacrifices to save the country.

The common theme seems to be Government = always good versus peasants/taxpayers who bail out poor bankers/bondholders = always bad.

Do you think that anyone in the Government should be even fractionally accountable for the mess we are in?

I like Donagh's idea about hanging the lot of them by the balls.

It will make us feel good for a while but after we do that we still have to cut government expenditure and learn to live within our means.

Hopefully the pain we feel as the cut backs are imposed will teach us a lesson never to elect such a shower again and to try to curtail our own greed.

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 06:57:19 PM

QuoteA union is meant to protect the conditions,pay and jobs of their members in that order

Each union will have it's own priorities, for example some of the HSE unions place patient care as a priority (believe it or not) and these priorities can and do change with circumstances.

Bollox

Quote
Do you think that anyone in the Government should be even fractionally accountable for the mess we are in?

Owe the Government are entire responsible for the mess we are in but unfortunately when an arsonist sets fire to your house you call the fire brigade, you don't shout about how it's someone else's fault while letting your house burn to the ground, you don't expect the arsonist to magically put out the mess he started .  One man can start a house fire, one man can not put it out .


The house is on fire now, who started it and how it can prevented from happening again are discussions best left till the fire is put out.

Quote

Expecting the unions to offer concessions on behalf of their members without exhausting all other avenues, including days of protests and/or strikes is naive. They would make themselves redundant.

Will these marches and strikes magic up some money? If not what the point . The country can't afford this wage bill. Not one union member or your self has offered up any other money saving or generating scheme to balance the books . The issue is a simple matter of one number being larger than a other and this not being acceptable. Now if you can think of a workable way to balance the books with out affecting peoples pay or conditions I will jump at the chance to champion it. 

Quote
now you think it is the Unions' responsibility to direct their members to make sacrifices to save the countr

Sorry your right I was thinking for the private sector where people can get laid off . Sure what difference does it make to this lot if the country goes to the wall sure it's no skin off their back's right?

So President McAleese is doing her bit for the budget deficient by reducing her house hold bills by 12.5%. She's probably sacked a few cleaners.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8343938.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8343938.stm)

Quote from: muppet on November 05, 2009, 06:57:19 PM
A Trade Union will normally strive to achieve certain goals usually contained in a constitution or mission statement or it will operate on mandates given by it's members.

A typical Trade Union will have the target of maintenance or improvement of conditions or it can have short term mandates, for example to engage with an employer on a specific issue.

QuoteA union is meant to protect the conditions,pay and jobs of their members in that order

Each union will have it's own priorities, for example some of the HSE unions place patient care as a priority (believe it or not) and these priorities can and do change with circumstances.

Expecting the unions to offer concessions on behalf of their members without exhausting all other avenues, including days of protests and/or strikes is naive. They would make themselves redundant.

Now a question for you.

While on this forum you have consistently supported Fianna Fáil's position on most things, a Yes vote for Lisbon, Shell's actions in Mayo and more recently recently NAMA, now you think it is the Unions' responsibility to direct their members to make sacrifices to save the country.

The common theme seems to be Government = always good versus peasants/taxpayers who bail out poor bankers/bondholders = always bad.

Do you think that anyone in the Government should be even fractionally accountable for the mess we are in?

I don't disagree with what you say above about Unions of the modern era. I don't believe for a minute that this is why unions came into being. I believe unions were brought into being to ensure the people got a "fair" deal. Of course this originated from a time where they represented the "peasant" class. Now we have unions that represent the well paid (civil servants) to the detriment of the low paid/unemployed for the most part. We have the unions run by people who are making crazy money, looking for the majority to pay over the odds for the minority. The unions have gone full circle. I wonder what Connolly and Larkin would think of the current unions - not a lot i'd imagine. I think these marchers are going to get nothing but abuse from the general public when the head off.

Quote from: Silky on November 05, 2009, 08:33:48 AM

The Irish private sector is like a small donkey who isn't getting enough to eat and has to carry around a huge number of lazy b**tards who won't get of his back and stand on their own two feet.

If that isn't bad enough they're now beating the feckin donkey to work harder so they can get more wages and none of them will get off it's back!

It's always the poor donkey!

(http://www.blogtourusa.com/wp-content/blog-tour-overload.gif)

Enjoyed Gnevin's last pitiful analogy. To extrapolate - the arsonist is the person trying to put out the fire in our case but Gnevin wants the insurance company to put it out! You have to laugh!

People cannot accept a pay cut from wankers whose large salaries are merely savings funds as their lives are funded by expenses. However, those people are better at the PR/spin side of things and they now the dopes that keep voting for them swallow anything.

For example - had a gawk at herselfs wage slip today and nearly choked when I saw how much she is paying for her "free" pension.

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 05, 2009, 10:42:06 PM
Enjoyed Gnevin's last pitiful analogy. To extrapolate - the arsonist is the person trying to put out the fire in our case but Gnevin wants the insurance company to put it out! You have to laugh!

The point is the Unions are running around shouting we didn't start the fire ,it was always burning! Well at this stage who gives a f**k. Get the thing put out and then start calling for heads.

On the general subject, WTF was Mary Malaprop Calamity Coughlan on about in the Dáil this evening regarding the revised Social Security payments (as per the impending Budget), which they (the misGovernment) hope to bring in on the 1st January:

"We will look to have those changes impacted on the 1st January..."?

Was she:

a) Talking about the effect it will have on those whose benefits have been cut
b) Expecting a meteor-strike on the planet Earth
c) Adopting a distribution of benefits by slingshot or buckshot approach
d) Talking through her hole, where she should have said something like 'implemented' or 'enacted'?

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 05, 2009, 10:16:10 PM
I don't disagree with what you say above about Unions of the modern era. I don't believe for a minute that this is why unions came into being. I believe unions were brought into being to ensure the people got a "fair" deal. Of course this originated from a time where they represented the "peasant" class. Now we have unions that represent the well paid (civil servants) to the detriment of the low paid/unemployed for the most part. We have the unions run by people who are making crazy money, looking for the majority to pay over the odds for the minority. The unions have gone full circle. I wonder what Connolly and Larkin would think of the current unions - not a lot i'd imagine. I think these marchers are going to get nothing but abuse from the general public when the head off.

Like myself, both Connolly and Larkin were card carrying Wobblies (IWW syndicalists) so all this navel-gazing béal bocht by both the Irish peasants and trade unions would've been an anathema.

I didn't know until today that there are protests all across the North as well. I wonder how many will turn up - it's pissing in Belfast?

Trade union day of demonstration 

The day of demonstration is part of the unions Get Up, Stand Up campaign
Trade union rallies will be held across 10 towns and cities in Northern Ireland on Friday.

Part of a National Day of Action throughout Ireland, they are being held by the Irish Congress of Trade Unions.

ICTU have said that job losses in the private sector mean public sector jobs must be protected.

"We have lost 43,000 jobs in the past year. The private sector can no longer play its full role in adding stimulus and demand to the economy."

"Private sector suppliers to the public sector will suffer from cuts in the schools and health budget.

"Retailers depend upon the spending power of public sector workers," said Peter Bunting from ICTU.

"Now is the time to make known the public opposition to these cuts in services and the loss of jobs in the private sector."

Demonstrations are being held in Belfast, Armagh, Ballymena, Craigavon, Coleraine, Londonderry, Magherafelt, Newry, Omagh and Enniskillen.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8346122.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8346122.stm)

Anton Savage (Today FM) wasn't far wrong this morning when he remarked that this 'day of action', about nothing specific or in particular, just a general rail against something or other, invoked memories of Father Ted's 'The Passion of St Tibulus':

(http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/image_thumb/wikipedia/images/en_id/3508267?maxheight=510&mode=fit&maxwidth=510)

:D

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 06, 2009, 11:02:23 AM
Anton Savage (Today FM) wasn't far wrong this morning when he remarked that this 'day of action', about nothing specific or in particular, just a general rail against something or other, invoked memories of Father Ted's 'The Passion of St Tibulus':

(http://img.freebase.com/api/trans/image_thumb/wikipedia/images/en_id/3508267?maxheight=510&mode=fit&maxwidth=510)

:D

Yeah, sure everything is hunky dory. What are they at, the idiots.  ::)

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2009, 11:22:15 AM
Yeah, sure everything is hunky dory. What are they at, the idiots.  ::)

Don't think anyone is saying that ms, but what will this action achieve, do you think?

To me, it's a cynical exercise by the union leaders to deflect the spotlight of scrutiny off themselves, since they've done very well out of the last 12 years, thank you very much. I'm sick listening to a stuttering and stammering (à la Bertie Ahern) Jack O'Connor, who's done massively well out his own machinations and manoeuvrings over the last 12 years, decry those same circumstances that have led to his rather repulsive enrichment. They were more than happy to milk an extremely inequitable system when it suited their own selfish purposes.

They're exploiting the poorly paid, who are in dire need of real leaders who won't look to feather their own nests at every turn.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 06, 2009, 11:38:26 AM
Don't think anyone is saying that ms, but what will this action achieve, do you think?

To me, it's a cynical exercise by the union leaders to deflect the spotlight of scrutiny off themselves, since they've done very well out of the last 12 years, thank you very much. I'm sick listening to a stuttering and stammering (à la Bertie Ahern) Jack O'Connor, who's done massively well out his own machinations and manoeuvrings over the last 12 years, decry those same circumstances that have led to his rather repulsive enrichment. They were more than happy to milk an extremely inequitable system when it suited their own selfish purposes.

They're exploiting the poorly paid, who are in dire need of real leaders who won't look to feather their own nests at every turn.

I have my own concerns about the Union leaders but I can't look past the Union members. The leaders have some strange priority's but the members are dealing with very tough decisions and are going to be faced with more.

There is more than one aspect and interested party in all this. The Government, Unions, employers etc. At the minute the people getting screwed are the majority of the membership of the Unions and the employees in the private sector and the employees in the private sector. The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless. This is the time to rebuild the country from the mess created by those at the top sharing the spoils. It's time to start again. I think we should roll in behind them.

Not against them Zap, far from it, but I believe it to be the wrong tactic at this juncture -- there's a real danger of protest fatigue setting in with the populace at large. And this is about a very vaguely defined target -- the handling of the economic malaise in general (to which the union leaders themselves handsomely contributed, of their own free will).

The unions would need to ditch O'Connor, Begg & Mc Loon (to start with), they're damaged goods, and they've long since outlasted their usefulness, and are nothing more than an embarrassment to them at this stage.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 06, 2009, 11:38:26 AM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2009, 11:22:15 AM
Yeah, sure everything is hunky dory. What are they at, the idiots.  ::)

Don't think anyone is saying that ms, but what will this action achieve, do you think?

To me, it's a cynical exercise by the union leaders to deflect the spotlight of scrutiny off themselves, since they've done very well out of the last 12 years, thank you very much. I'm sick listening to a stuttering and stammering (à la Bertie Ahern) Jack O'Connor, who's done massively well out his own machinations and manoeuvrings over the last 12 years, decry those same circumstances that have led to his rather repulsive enrichment. They were more than happy to milk an extremely inequitable system when it suited their own selfish purposes.

They're exploiting the poorly paid, who are in dire need of real leaders who won't look to feather their own nests at every turn.

Hear hear.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless.

Translation realistic and know they can be laid off and so are willing to work with the "evil" employer "who has a check to give them a job"?

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 06, 2009, 12:05:28 PM
Not against them Zap, far from it, but I believe it to be the wrong tactic at this juncture -- there's a real danger of protest fatigue setting in with the populace at large. And this is about a very vaguely defined target -- the handling of the economic malaise in general (to which the union leaders themselves handsomely contributed, of their own free will).

The unions would need to ditch O'Connor, Begg & Mc Loon (to start with), they're damaged goods, and they've long since outlasted their usefulness, and are nothing more than an embarrassment to them at this stage.

True. We need to rebuild the Country from the top down.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:14:42 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless.

Translation realistic and know they can be laid off and so are willing to work with the "evil" employer "who has a check to give them a job"?

Why the quotation marks? Are you quoting me on something I didn't say or are you quoting someone else and linking it to me? You have no credibility from that post.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:19:29 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:14:42 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless.

Translation realistic and know they can be laid off and so are willing to work with the "evil" employer "who has a check to give them a job"?

Why the quotation marks? Are you quoting me on something I didn't say or are you quoting someone else and linking it to me? You have no credibility from that post.

Are you attempting to make sense from his post?

The bad news : the sun is starting to break through the shies
The good news - Its pissing rain

Hopefully it f**king lashes from the heavens for the next few hours.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:19:29 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:14:42 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless.

Translation realistic and know they can be laid off and so are willing to work with the "evil" employer "who has a check to give them a job"?

Why the quotation marks? Are you quoting me on something I didn't say or are you quoting someone else and linking it to me? You have no credibility from that post.

I was paraphrasing the general mood you seem to get from these union types . If i was quoting you, I'd of used the quote button

Im thinking of heading into town shortly with my new banner
'' what do we want-
jobs for life-
when do we want them-
forever''

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 06, 2009, 11:38:26 AM

Quote from: magpie seanie on November 06, 2009, 11:22:15 AM
Yeah, sure everything is hunky dory. What are they at, the idiots.  ::)

Don't think anyone is saying that ms, but what will this action achieve, do you think?

To me, it's a cynical exercise by the union leaders to deflect the spotlight of scrutiny off themselves, since they've done very well out of the last 12 years, thank you very much. I'm sick listening to a stuttering and stammering (à la Bertie Ahern) Jack O'Connor, who's done massively well out his own machinations and manoeuvrings over the last 12 years, decry those same circumstances that have led to his rather repulsive enrichment. They were more than happy to milk an extremely inequitable system when it suited their own selfish purposes.

They're exploiting the poorly paid, who are in dire need of real leaders who won't look to feather their own nests at every turn.

Great post!

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:31:09 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:19:29 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:14:42 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless.

Translation realistic and know they can be laid off and so are willing to work with the "evil" employer "who has a check to give them a job"?

Why the quotation marks? Are you quoting me on something I didn't say or are you quoting someone else and linking it to me? You have no credibility from that post.

I was paraphrasing the general mood you seem to get from these union types . If i was quoting you, I'd of used the quote button

Well don't. If you want to get my opinion ask me the question and don't misquote me. You used quotation marks. Do you know what they mean?

Quote from: ludermor on November 06, 2009, 12:31:40 PM
Im thinking of heading into town shortly with my new banner
'' what do we want-
jobs for life-
when do we want them-
forever''

I laughed my arse off when I read this. So true.

Quote from: ludermor on November 06, 2009, 12:31:40 PM
Im thinking of heading into town shortly with my new banner
'' what do we want-
jobs for life-
when do we want them-
forever''

I'll be the one behind you with

'' what do we want-
pay increases in the middle of a recession-
when do we want them-
in the middle of a recession''

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:33:29 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:31:09 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:19:29 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 12:14:42 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:52:49 AM
The members of the Unions are organised and are fighting their battle while the employees and the unemployed from the private sector are divided and powerless.

Translation realistic and know they can be laid off and so are willing to work with the "evil" employer "who has a check to give them a job"?

Why the quotation marks? Are you quoting me on something I didn't say or are you quoting someone else and linking it to me? You have no credibility from that post.

I was paraphrasing the general mood you seem to get from these union types . If i was quoting you, I'd of used the quote button

Well don't. If you want to get my opinion ask me the question and don't misquote me. You used quotation marks. Do you know what they mean?

Yes I know what it means and when people say Zapatista said "Do you know what they mean?" They are  quoting you. When people say "who has a check to give them a job"? it is generally understood to be the equivalent of  air quotes or to paraphrase a whole.

Apologies if you feel I misrepresented you.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
Yes I know what the mean and when people say Zapatista said "Do you know what they mean?" They are  quoting you. When people say "who has a check to give them a job"? it is generally understood to be the equivalent of  air quotes or to paraphrase a whole.

Apologies if I you feel I misrepresented you.

No worries. Just to clarify I used the term 'employers' in a very broad sense. Many employers do great work. There is a balance though. Employers and employees should both benefit from business. One can't survive without the other.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 01:20:51 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
Yes I know what the mean and when people say Zapatista said "Do you know what they mean?" They are  quoting you. When people say "who has a check to give them a job"? it is generally understood to be the equivalent of  air quotes or to paraphrase a whole.

Apologies if I you feel I misrepresented you.

No worries. Just to clarify I used the term 'employers' in a very broad sense. Many employers do great work. There is a balance though. Employers and employees should both benefit from business. One can't survive without the other.

Of course . A balance I don't see in the Public sector unions at all. Public sector workers know they are immune to all most all of the negatives of business failure. They can't be fired, have pay lowered or conditions changed . So they are throwing their toys out of the pram, making lots of noise knowing they have nothing to lose. I can't understand why the top brass of these Unions can't help there worst off members by talking to the government. These are the Unions who claimed the levy was unfair to some people (which it was) but they where so busy making a scene and saying never , never ,never the they forgot about the little guy .

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:40:27 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 01:20:51 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:03:23 PM
Yes I know what the mean and when people say Zapatista said "Do you know what they mean?" They are  quoting you. When people say "who has a check to give them a job"? it is generally understood to be the equivalent of  air quotes or to paraphrase a whole.

Apologies if I you feel I misrepresented you.

No worries. Just to clarify I used the term 'employers' in a very broad sense. Many employers do great work. There is a balance though. Employers and employees should both benefit from business. One can't survive without the other.

Of course . A balance I don't see in the Public sector unions at all. Public sector workers know they are immune to all most all of the negatives of business failure. They can't be fired, have pay lowered or conditions changed . So they are throwing their toys out of the pram, making lots of noise knowing they have nothing to lose. I can't understand why the top brass of these Unions can't help there worst off members by talking to the government. These are the Unions who claimed the levy was unfair to some people (which it was) but they where so busy making a scene and saying never , never ,never the they forgot about the little guy .

[/b]

That is one of the funniest things I've read here.

About 30k turned up in Dublin. About 15 in Cork i think the unions have got their answer today. Am delighted. Its final sting of a dying wasp.

Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on November 06, 2009, 05:04:50 PM
About 30k turned up in Dublin. About 15 in Cork i think the unions have got their answer today. Am delighted. Its final sting of a dying wasp.

100k turned up according to the unions .

QuoteThey can't be fired, have pay lowered

The can be fired and have already had their pay lowered, unlike most in the private sector.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2009, 06:29:28 PM

QuoteThey can't be fired, have pay lowered

The can be fired and have already had their pay lowered, unlike most in the private sector.

Fine they are extremely hard to fire in most case impossible . The levy is not a pay cut . They will get the money in their pensions

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2009, 06:29:28 PM

QuoteThey can't be fired, have pay lowered

The can be fired and have already had their pay lowered, unlike most in the private sector.

Yes, they can be fired if they beheaded a blind child. They have not had their "pay" lowered. They have been asked to contribute to their ridiculously generous defined benefit pension.

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2009, 06:29:28 PM

QuoteThey can't be fired, have pay lowered

The can be fired and have already had their pay lowered, unlike most in the private sector.

When was their pay lowered?

Also you have no clue of what is going on in the private sector... That record rise in unemployment levels earlier this year... Private sector. The record numbers of businesses going to the wall... Private Sector.

Catch a grip you complete fool.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 06, 2009, 06:51:51 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2009, 06:29:28 PM

QuoteThey can't be fired, have pay lowered

The can be fired and have already had their pay lowered, unlike most in the private sector.

Yes, they can be fired if they beheaded a blind child. They have not had their "pay" lowered. They have been asked to contribute to their ridiculously generous defined benefit pension.

Is anyone capable of presenting the facts accurately without dripping in begrudgery?

They always contributed to their Defined Benefit pensions which have now gone out of fashion thanks to our 'closer to Boston than Berlin' faction in the Government. They now pay a 7% income levy on top of what they used to pay.

I don't have any problem with that personally other than I'd  prefer if I was paying over 10% of my salary into a pension that the same pension wasn't used to bail out Anglo Irish Bank (a private sector entity until it bankrupted the State).

I'd prefer the 7% levy to the 10% pay cut I've had.

Oh, and I'd prefer their job security over mine too.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 06:37:13 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on November 06, 2009, 06:29:28 PM

QuoteThey can't be fired, have pay lowered

The can be fired and have already had their pay lowered, unlike most in the private sector.

Fine they are extremely hard to fire in most case impossible . The levy is not a pay cut . They will get the money in their pensions

Oh so they're going to get a bigger pension than before the levy came in, sure what is all the fuss about so...  ::) Throw some more petrol on the fire there...

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 06:37:13 PM
. The levy is not a pay cut . They will get the money in their pensions

As the man from the Dept of Finance said to me ..." The levy is a device to save the Exchequer some money. Nothing to do with  pensions "
It was a device to allow the Unions to say gross pay wasnt cut. However if you take home less money this week than last that's a cut.

Rumour has it that there are people in the private sector that have taken big pay cuts and have no pension.

This is going beyond rediculous. Minister Gormley calls it a civil war. Things are bad when we are eachothers throats about what's fair when the majority have been screwed by the minority. It's typical of the Irish to blame eachother while letting the guilty pull the strings and stoke the flames. The brain drain is showing it's results now and the best of what we achieved in the last 15 years will be heading out shortly to join their uncles who left in the 80s.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 08:14:20 PM
This is going beyond rediculous. Minister Gormley calls it a civil war. Things are bad when we are eachothers throats about what's fair when the majority have been screwed by the minority. It's typical of the Irish to blame eachother while letting the guilty pull the strings and stoke the flames. The brain drain is showing it's results now and the best of what we achieved in the last 15 years will be heading out shortly to join their uncles who left in the 80s.

The public sector needs to be sorted out and it will be because if the Government fail to do it the IMF will do it for them.

However if I employed too many staff and gave them large salaries and DB pensions for very little funding I would be the one fired.

This public v private row is missing the point completely and is a deliberate ploy to deflect attention away from the culprits.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 08:14:20 PM
This is going beyond rediculous. Minister Gormley calls it a civil war. Things are bad when we are eachothers throats about what's fair when the majority have been screwed by the minority. It's typical of the Irish to blame eachother while letting the guilty pull the strings and stoke the flames. The brain drain is showing it's results now and the best of what we achieved in the last 15 years will be heading out shortly to join their uncles who left in the 80s.

You constantly talk about the guilty and the higher ups and the need to string them up. Even if we strung them up would it generate 4bl ?

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 08:19:55 PM
You constantly talk about the guilty and the higher ups and the need to string them up. Even if we strung them up would it generate 4bl ?

Lets start at the start. We cannot allow the same mistakes to be made by the same people. The Bertis Aherns, Brian Cowens, JOD's, Roddy Molloys, Brenden Drumms, Bankers, Builders and all the rest of those who fueled this problem have the task of fixing it. These people have absolutley no iota of what it is like to face real problems. They have no idea of the fear of missing a mortgage repayment or of medical bills. They don't know what it's like to go to SVdP for help over Christmas and they never will. They are unaccountable because they made the rules to be like that. It's worse than reappointing Steve Staunton. The problem can't be fixed without fixing this. We have bought the lie that we are all to blame and should share the pain. We are not sharing the pain. Address first things first.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 08:19:55 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 08:14:20 PM
This is going beyond rediculous. Minister Gormley calls it a civil war. Things are bad when we are eachothers throats about what's fair when the majority have been screwed by the minority. It's typical of the Irish to blame eachother while letting the guilty pull the strings and stoke the flames. The brain drain is showing it's results now and the best of what we achieved in the last 15 years will be heading out shortly to join their uncles who left in the 80s.

You constantly talk about the guilty and the higher ups and the need to string them up. Even if we strung them up would it generate 4bl ?

You need to stop thinking like a goldfish.

Quote from: muppet on November 06, 2009, 08:18:28 PM


The public sector needs to be sorted out and it will be because if the Government fail to do it the IMF will do it for them.

However if I employed too many staff and gave them large salaries and DB pensions for very little funding I would be the one fired.

This public v private row is missing the point completely and is a deliberate ploy to deflect attention away from the culprits.

Me too. In fact we are on thin ice. Luckly my employer is a very decent man.

I don't know if it was initially a deliberate ploy but it is definatley being taken advantage off now.

The public sector and private sectors both need changed. But not by those gombeeens who are saying they will do it. They having been cleaning the public purse for years and have no intention of stopping. They have to be stopped.

We are aware of many problems in the public sector but the deliberate failure to regulate many aspects of the private sector and the delibderate connections and networks the Government set up with the private sector (often in a tent in Galway) must be addressed too.

Quote from: no mo do yakamo on November 06, 2009, 08:11:49 PM
Rumour has it that there are people in the private sector that have taken big pay cuts and have no pension.

Why didnt they start paying a pension contribution at 18 like public service employees had to?
Anyway the IBECunts and FFBuilders and Bankercunts who ruined the Economy are now winning again as we at the bottom are now at each others throats as we live out the agenda set by "THEM".
Remember they fear one thing and that is  united working people ( and unemployed) who oppose them at every turn as they try to screw us.

Paying into a pension from the age of eighteen would have been the equivalent of burning a large chunk of money. Pensions are pretty worthless now. Unless youve got one of those sucker funded bulletproof defined benefit ones that are avaliable to select members of society at a huge discount.

Select members of society ...FFS 2 years ago ye were all laughing at anyone that would have a public service job.
Or are you talking about the State pension where you only have to pay PRSI for 10 years to qualify?
Meanwhile public service employees paid tax all their working lives to fund the State pension and cannot get it themselves.( pre 1995)

Quote from: Rossfan on November 06, 2009, 09:22:09 PM
Select members of society ...FFS 2 years ago ye were all laughing at anyone that would have a public service job.
Or are you talking about the State pension where you only have to pay PRSI for 10 years to qualify?
Meanwhile public service employees paid tax all their working lives to fund the State pension and cannot get it themselves.( pre 1995)

.

Your first point is absolute bullshit and is a lie being put forward by the unions. For the vast majority of roles the PS has always had the best pay - I asked Donagh to back up a similar statement with some evidence and he didn't so maybe you can take up the challenge.

Secondly, The vast majority of private sector workers pay into paltry pensions (if they can afford one at all), if they are lucky their employer will contribute 3-5%. A tiny minority of companies will contribute more. A private sector pension will not be defined benefit (companies that have this scheme are trying to get out of it). Since the majority of tax payers in this country are private sector workers it is not unreasonable to say that the majority of tax comes from them too. Therefore the majority of funding for the lavish PS pension comes from the private sector worker.

There is also an attempt here to portray the message of this protest as some crusade for the wider people against the evil government. Again, total shite. This is a protest to keep the elevated average pay of the Public Service at its current level by threatening to bring the country to a standstill by with holding essential services. They are doing this at a time when private sector workers are losing their jobs at rates not witnessed since the 80's. The Public sector unions are a selfish greedy bunch who have no interest in the greater good for the country (a fact that won't surprise anyone here I doubt). There interest is in keeping the minority of Irish workers better paid than the majority and to have the majority to pay for them. To try and legitimise this protest they tell us they are doing it for us all cos we are all next - do any of you really believe that?

One final point - we all know the government, the banks and the big builders caused this problem but as much as we might all like to make them "fix" the problem by punishing  them I'm afraid there is not enough money out there in these groups to solve the problem. We will all have to pay unfortunately.

If Public Sector jobs are so wonderful and highly paid as is being claimed then they must have attracted the very best people into those positions. Surely the open-market forces would have seen to that.

My God. some intelligent debate. I thought I was on the wrong site!

Can you imagine if some of the civil service was let go. These guys would be unemployable in the private sector. The main problem is productivity. There is probably double the headcount than what there needs to be.

Someone tell me I misheard.

Did I hear Willie O'Dea say on newstalk that  - saying you were in the public sector was like saying your grandfather was in the Black n Tans?

I'd like to be sure before I throw a wobbler.

QuoteDid I hear Willie O'Dea say on newstalk that  - saying you were in the public sector was like saying your grandfather was in the Black n Tans?

David Begg said this last week - He was saying that such is the vitriol and antipathy out there towards public sector workers  - being whipped up by truly objective commentators ;) - that people felt ashamed to admit they worked there

Quote from: Declan on November 11, 2009, 09:26:44 AM

QuoteDid I hear Willie O'Dea say on newstalk that  - saying you were in the public sector was like saying your grandfather was in the Black n Tans?

David Begg said this last week - He was saying that such is the vitriol and antipathy out there towards public sector workers  - being whipped up by truly objective commentators ;) - that people felt ashamed to admit they worked there

A tan only cost "10 shillings a day plus full board and lodging" seems like better value than Pat Kenny .

Quote from: Declan on November 11, 2009, 09:26:44 AM
David Begg said this last week - He was saying that such is the vitriol and antipathy out there towards public sector workers  - being whipped up by truly objective commentators ;) - that people felt ashamed to admit they worked there

This is the lowest of the low. First Gormley calls it a civil war then this. My anger at the people who are trying to divide the Irish people can't be kept peaceful for much longer. Attempts to divide the Irish people have never ended peacefully.