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Does it bother you?
Why does it bother some of us?

Asked Sidebottom earlier in the year why he wore one and he said something about a close relative dying during the war (twas drunken 2am conversation).

Doesn't bother me in the slightest.

would have to say that i wouldn't be a great fan of them.  i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.


i suppose if we had not got the the last 30 years of conflict here you might accept it more

Ah the annual thread.

we ll the poppy is hardy annual as well.
and the english insistance on its use seems to be getting more fascist every year. I wonder are there fines in place in The bbc if people dont wear it . certainly seems that way.
Let them glorfy there wars if they want . But we know how the English behaved in wars ado you really think they are behaving any differently in their current wars in Iraq Afghanistan and Pakistan .
If you want to celebrate that go right ahead.

should we just not pull up last years threads and people can read them instead of having to do this dance again,

 . But we know how the English behaved in wars 
[/quote

Ref WW2, to stop German soldiers marching through the streets of Ireland?

Why do they wear a flower that is used to make heroin? Quite appropriate.

A very mischievous thread by ONeill.

Quote from: dillinger on October 28, 2009, 01:37:19 AM
. But we know how the English behaved in wars 
[/quote

Ref WW2, to stop German soldiers marching through the streets of Ireland?

You're right. Much better having British soldiers marching through the streets of Ireland.

............so this isn't about heroin then.....??????

It gives the unionists yet another chance to play the religion card. Imagine the uproar if people freely wore an Easter Lily to work etc?

Quote from: Capt Pat on October 28, 2009, 01:49:04 AM
Why do they wear a flower that is used to make heroin? Quite appropriate.

::)

I think that a country should remember their war-dead, and its an appropriate gesture for Britain to make.

Of course, its a little different in the north, where they are often worn as said earlier, as a 'feck you' gesture, similar to putting an orange sash on.

Quote from: haranguerer on October 28, 2009, 08:45:14 AM

Quote from: Capt Pat on October 28, 2009, 01:49:04 AM
Why do they wear a flower that is used to make heroin? Quite appropriate.

::)

I think that a country should remember their war-dead, and its an appropriate gesture for Britain to make.

Of course, its a little different in the north, where they are often worn as said earlier, as a 'feck you' gesture, similar to putting an orange sash on.

There is a difference in remembering war-dead and paying for the retirement of war mongers.

Quote from: ONeill on October 28, 2009, 12:30:43 AM
Does it bother you?
Why does it bother some of us?

Asked Sidebottom earlier in the year why he wore one and he said something about a close relative dying during the war (twas drunken 2am conversation).

Sidearse is full of shite - doesn't have the balls to stand up to the BBC. Another Frank Mitchell McClory.

He does seem to be drunk quite a lot though. Maybe he's  an alcoholic.

Quote from: Archie Mitchell on October 28, 2009, 08:44:36 AM
It gives the unionists yet another chance to play the religion card. Imagine the uproar if people freely wore an Easter Lily to work etc?

At least the Lily is only worn on Easter Sunday. I don;t have a problem with remembrance Sunday and all that craic, But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year.

My workplace is very mixed and I haven't seen one Catholic wearing one, Protestants however not only wear them but have them everywhere, workstations etc - I think it's used by Unionists as a badge of Britishness and little else

There are about 250 people where I work and it is mixed, I have never seen more than two or three people wearing poppies.

I dont want to go off on a tangent here but i was up in the north two weeks ago.

I was heading up to a friend from between banbridge and castlewellan or newcastle i think.
The route i took was armagh city,pontyzpass,loughlowbridge i think, banbridge and then the castlewellan road and i turned off somewhere on that road.

I noticed that every so often there was a UJ or Northern flag flying from different telephone poles and the markethill road there was a fair few splattered.

Then when i went down to my friend who lives on an oul country road i noticed a big farmyard beside his house and a lot of good land to the back and a big white pole with a UJ flying.

This wasnt the first big farm i noticed with a UJ flying outside on a long pole.

My friend is nationalist but is not political.He doesnt care as long as theres peace which is my oulook too.The easy option maybe but it actually irked me that every morning when my friend and his neighbours wakes up they sees this flying and even though they dont seem to care i have to say it would bother me.

Im maybe naive as my trips to the north has only been to crossmaglen and enniskillen a couple times to watch roscommon and yes even though there was a nice few tricolours in cross i never seemed to notice anything else.

On the trip two weeks ago i genuinely seen only one tricolour in the north and alot of bunting and flags for peares og in armagh city.

On the way home i decided going through the republic i would look for tricolours and see were we as genorous with the flag flying.

I went through monaghan cavan and leitrim and down to south roscommon.
I seen two. One outside the slieve russel hotel in cavan and one outside the mbna building in carrick on shannon.

My point is this are the UJs been flown for triumphalism or insecurity?

Was it just the route i took that was unionism favoured or is there other areas in the north where the tricolour is flown every half mile along a road?

There is one erected outside Omagh on the Gortin road by a local farmer. I have often thought of putting the tri colour up on our road but then you think why would I need too, i have nothing to prove. The one time that i will put it up is when that paisley cu*t passes on. That will be a great day.

Quote from: rossie mad on October 28, 2009, 10:13:41 AM

My point is this are the UJs been flown for triumphalism or insecurity?

Both. I works both ways too. In the south Superquinn and such places use the flag to encourage you to stay away from Aldi and Lidl. True patriots.

QuoteIn the south Superquinn and such places use the flag to encourage you to stay away from Aldi and Lidl. True patriots.

Must say I've never seen that Zap - Wherabouts?

Used to be that the poppy was a reminder of the tragedy of war, the sacrafice and desire for peaceful resolution.

Now I think it is used to pay for the continued cost of war.


The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british. My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it (I hope! lol)

Did you just type lol?

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british. My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it

Agree, and my mam too used to buy one or two.  I notice the Dutch, French or Belgians don't bother with the poppy.  Does anyone know why that might be?

Quote from: ONeill on October 28, 2009, 10:49:15 AM
Did you just type lol?

Yeah, I'm not a smilie type person

Don't see many people in work wearing them but often wonder if they are for show or are they genuine.  I personally see them as being a symbol of the 'protestant' sort even though they are marketed as a sign of respect for the dead who as I have been often reminded came from both communities.  The woman and her ma wear them and they actually see it for what its meant toi be but it doesn't stop me from binning hers as soon as she drops her guard, there will be a row in the future if my daughter ever has one near her.  As I mentioned I often get the line 'both sides fought..' from the womans ma but maybe she is naive and doesn't realise how it is perceived by from the majority of catholics.  I remember a few years ago in Strabane there was uproar at people  wearing Easter Lilys to work, even though the town is 99.9% Nationalist and it is a symbol to respect the dead from a previous war also.  It sickens me that Unionist politicians cause uproar at this while there is no problem when it suits there agenda. 

Regarding the flag flying, it doesn't seem to be as much in our nature to have flags everywhere in our towns etc, maybe we are lazy.  I live in Waringstown (few miles from Banbridge) and there is loads of Union Jacks etc flying all year around.  The same goes for Lurgan, the whole town is covered all summer even though it is mixed.  I would love to see the reaction of the Unionist politicians if there were Tricolours everywhere, be a different story altogether. 

While at QUB studying politics as part of my course, we had a German teacher for most of the first semester and excellent he was too. This dick in the class continued to wear his poppy throughout the semester as a reminder to the teacher who won the war. p***k!

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 10:53:41 AM

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british. My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it

Agree, and my mam too used to buy one or two.  I notice the Dutch, French or Belgians don't bother with the poppy.  Does anyone know why that might be?

It was generally the commonwealth nations that adopted the poppy. Canada, Australia et al

In fact the Canadian have the poppy on the quarter from 2008.

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:22:13 AM

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 10:53:41 AM

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british. My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it

Agree, and my mam too used to buy one or two.  I notice the Dutch, French or Belgians don't bother with the poppy.  Does anyone know why that might be?

It was generally the commonwealth nations that adopted the poppy. Canada, Australia et al

In fact the Canadian have the poppy on the quarter from 2008.

Thanks.  Never knew that.  The poppy is not a common sight in Aus. 

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 11:24:45 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:22:13 AM

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 10:53:41 AM

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british. My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it

Agree, and my mam too used to buy one or two.  I notice the Dutch, French or Belgians don't bother with the poppy.  Does anyone know why that might be?

It was generally the commonwealth nations that adopted the poppy. Canada, Australia et al

In fact the Canadian have the poppy on the quarter from 2008.

Thanks.  Never knew that.  The poppy is not a common sight in Aus.

Isn't Anzac Day more widely remembered over there? I don't think the Commonwealth nations go in for the 3 week event like the BBC do. In Canada anyway from what I have been told people attending a remembrance event will ware one on the day but not for a week before hand.

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge", but in my own experience many, many more do so in memory of someone close to them.

Indeed imo the sort of prejudice displayed by the "f* Badge" wearing type is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her. 

Quote from: Capt Pat on October 28, 2009, 01:49:04 AM
Why do they wear a flower that is used to make heroin? Quite appropriate.

Except that the Poppy which is adopted for Remembrance purposes is the common Corn Poppy (Papaver Rhoeas), not the Opium Poppy (Papaver Somniferum):
"Papaver rhoeas does not contain any opium. Its cousin Papaver somniferum is the opium poppy and is native to parts of Asia"

In Flanders Fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

http://www.botanical.com/site/column_rita/flanders.html

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Indeed and unless they ("some") had some knowledge of the motives of someone else displaying a GAA symbol, they would be being equally prejudicial.
Thank you for illustrating my point nicely.

Quote from: Capt Pat on October 28, 2009, 01:49:04 AM
Of course, its a little different in the north, where they are often worn as said earlier, as a 'feck you' gesture, similar to putting an orange sash on.

"... as claimed earlier..." - There is an important difference.

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on October 28, 2009, 09:34:21 AM
I don;t have a problem with remembrance Sunday and all that craic, But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday.

Poppies are sold to raise money for veterans charities etc. If they were only sold/worn on one day, only a fraction of the present amount would be raised.

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on October 28, 2009, 09:34:21 AM
It gets earlier by the year.

It doesn't. Perhaps you are confusing it with this?
http://www.thechristmasshop.co.uk/

Quote from: Minder on October 28, 2009, 09:48:24 AM
There are about 250 people where I work and it is mixed, I have never seen more than two or three people wearing poppies.

What? Only two or three "Feck You" badgewearers? Surely not...

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
Used to be that the poppy was a reminder of the tragedy of war, the sacrafice and desire for peaceful resolution.

Now I think it is used to pay for the continued cost of war.

Then you think wrong.

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british.
My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it (I hope! lol)

Does that mean your mum is a (secret) Brit?  ???

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 11:24:45 AM
Thanks.  Never knew that.  The poppy is not a common sight in Aus.

Maybe not a common site, but from a quick search it appears they sell millions each year.

http://www.defence.gov.au/Army/The_Red_Poppy.asp (http://www.defence.gov.au/Army/The_Red_Poppy.asp)

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 10:53:41 AM
I notice the Dutch, French or Belgians don't bother with the poppy.  Does anyone know why that might be?

"The most recent and enduring tradition began in WWI when John McCrae wrote the poem that appears at the top of this article. McCrae was a Canadian who enlisted to help the allies in the war. He was made Medical Officer upon landing in Europe. During a lull in the battle with the nub of a pencil he scratched on a page from his dispatch book. The poem found its way into the pages of Punch magazine. By 1918 the poem was well known throughout the allied world. Moina Michael, an American woman, wrote these lines in reply.
We cherish too, the Poppy red
That grows on fields where valor led,
It seems to signal to the skies
That blood of heroes never dies

She then adopted the custom of wearing a red poppy in memory of the sacrifices of war and also as a symbol of keeping the faith.

A French women, Madam Guerin, visiting the United States, learned of the custom and took it one step further. When she returned to France she decided to hand make the red poppies and sell them to raise money for the benefit of the orphaned and destitute women and children in war torn areas of France. This tradition spread to Canada, The United States and Australia and is still followed today. The money collected from the sale of poppies goes to fund various veterans programs"
http://www.botanical.com/site/column_rita/flanders.html

I suspect the real reason why Poppy Wearing caught on so widely in the UK and endures to the present day, is because of the activities of the RBL i.e. elsewhere it is more just a symbol of remembrance, but in the UK it is also raises funds for veterans etc.

Late Edit: I've just seen nifan's post (above), where he points out that the Poppy is still quite widely sold in other countries, not just the UK.

Yes but they were first sold to raise funds for the orphans and destitute women affected by the war.

In my eyes these are victims of the war and not the veterans

Quote from: rossie mad on October 28, 2009, 12:15:20 PM

Yes but they were first sold to raise funds for the orphans and destitute women affected by the war.

In my eyes these are victims of the war and not the veterans

If you disapprove of veterans receiving donations, then don't buy a Poppy - it's hardly compulsory, after all.

And I daresay there are many other charities which cater for those whom you consider to be the only true victims of war.

Dont worry i dont plan on buying one  ;)

They are several charities correct but i wouldnt class the selling of poppies a charity.

In NI, wearing the poppy is for a most part a political statement.

But so what, it is no secret that Unionists aspire to state their Britishness on occasions and the poppy thing is an opportunity.

EG can you explain why some people who choose to wear the (blood red) poppy, seem to have competitions to see who can get the biggest one possible, I have seen people wearing ones that are the size of a saucer! Surely they wouldn't be "making a point?"  ::)

If some stranger wearing a poppy annoys you then you are maybe not the best adjusted person in the world.

Quote from: Minder on October 28, 2009, 12:38:12 PM
If some stranger wearing a poppy annoys you then you are maybe not the best adjusted person in the world.

Not sure if that was directed at me, but it doesn't bother me in the slightest. I actually feel sorry for those that wear it to make a statement, they must be really insecure in their culture/nationality.

Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

Quote from: Minder on October 28, 2009, 12:38:12 PM
If some stranger wearing a poppy annoys you then you are maybe not the best adjusted person in the world.

Mostly true. But don't tell you me you don't make determinations about a person based on them wearing one.

Quote from: Minder on October 28, 2009, 12:38:12 PM
If some stranger wearing a poppy annoys you then you are maybe not the best adjusted person in the world.

Hmmm, I havent heard of anyone getting punched cause they were wearing a poppy!

I wouldnt say we get annoyed, but we do feel sorry for the little englanders doing their best to keep the six counties as british as finchly

I reckon people wear poppies for a variety of reasons.  The reason I don't wear one is probably that at one time it was perceived as a symbol of Britishness in NI and it's a hangover from then  Though I have to say that in Fermanagh the numbers of people wearing them seems to be falling.  Of course that doesn't mean to say that they're not buying them.  However I don't think the BBC should insist that all presenters wear them.

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on October 28, 2009, 01:47:23 PM
I reckon people wear poppies for a variety of reasons.  The reason I don't wear one is probably that at one time it was perceived as a symbol of Britishness in NI and it's a hangover from then  Though I have to say that in Fermanagh the numbers of people wearing them seems to be falling.  Of course that doesn't mean to say that they're not buying them. However I don't think the BBC should insist that all presenters wear them.

That is it, people say why can't such and such make a stand and refuse, but it is policy I believe.  I think the policy should be left up to each presenter, but there is no doubt this dictat comes from London.

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on October 28, 2009, 01:47:23 PM
However I don't think the BBC should insist that all presenters wear them.

Didn't Donna Traynor famously refuse to wear Poppies in the past and Shamrocks on St. Patrick's Day? Noticed she has started wearing Popies this year though.

Quote from: ziggysego on October 28, 2009, 01:54:04 PM

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on October 28, 2009, 01:47:23 PM
However I don't think the BBC should insist that all presenters wear them.

Didn't Donna Traynor famously refuse to wear Poppies in the past and Shamrocks on St. Patrick's Day? Noticed she has started wearing Popies this year though.

No Popies here

Oops  :D

Some people have little to worry about when it annoys them that people might actually wear the emblem of a charitable oganisation, FFS get a grip, its a bit of advertising for the charity. Ii've often seen somone wearing one and thing to myself, ah must remember to make a donation, I don't bother wearing one myself but thats more to do with it being a faff to pin on properly and not some sort of political statement one way or the other.

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
Some people have little to worry about when it annoys them that people might actually wear the emblem of a charitable oganisation, FFS get a grip, its a bit of advertising for the charity. Ii've often seen somone wearing one and thing to myself, ah must remember to make a donation, I don't bother wearing one myself but thats more to do with it being a faff to pin on properly and not some sort of political statement one way or the other.

There we go then, thats it all sorted, don't know what all the fuss was about.  Thanks delboy for clearing this up.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on October 28, 2009, 03:30:21 PM

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
Some people have little to worry about when it annoys them that people might actually wear the emblem of a charitable oganisation, FFS get a grip, its a bit of advertising for the charity. Ii've often seen somone wearing one and thing to myself, ah must remember to make a donation, I don't bother wearing one myself but thats more to do with it being a faff to pin on properly and not some sort of political statement one way or the other.

There we go then, thats it all sorted, don't know what all the fuss was about.  Thanks delboy for clearing this up.

So it should be, if somebody wants to hand over some of their own hard earned cash to a charity and then wear its emblems then thats their business, end of.

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 04:02:38 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on October 28, 2009, 03:30:21 PM

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
Some people have little to worry about when it annoys them that people might actually wear the emblem of a charitable oganisation, FFS get a grip, its a bit of advertising for the charity. Ii've often seen somone wearing one and thing to myself, ah must remember to make a donation, I don't bother wearing one myself but thats more to do with it being a faff to pin on properly and not some sort of political statement one way or the other.

There we go then, thats it all sorted, don't know what all the fuss was about.  Thanks delboy for clearing this up.

So it should be, if somebody wants to hand over some of their own hard earned cash to a charity and then wear its emblems then thats their business, end of.

And if they dont is that still their own business?

Quote from: Franko on October 28, 2009, 04:05:40 PM

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 04:02:38 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on October 28, 2009, 03:30:21 PM

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 03:28:39 PM
Some people have little to worry about when it annoys them that people might actually wear the emblem of a charitable oganisation, FFS get a grip, its a bit of advertising for the charity. Ii've often seen somone wearing one and thing to myself, ah must remember to make a donation, I don't bother wearing one myself but thats more to do with it being a faff to pin on properly and not some sort of political statement one way or the other.

There we go then, thats it all sorted, don't know what all the fuss was about.  Thanks delboy for clearing this up.

So it should be, if somebody wants to hand over some of their own hard earned cash to a charity and then wear its emblems then thats their business, end of.

And if they dont is that still their own business?

Yes, I believe it should be left completely at the discretion of the individual.

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 04:14:37 PM
Yes, I believe it should be left completely at the discretion of the individual.

So you disagree with the policies at BBC and UTV which requires local presenters to wear it? Hardly a progressive line of thought but sadly one that's only too rare among unionists especially when they think they're getting one up on the other side.

One the positive side, I work in a building with about 70 others, where Fenians would be in the minority and there isn't one person wearing it and haven't been over the past few years. Thankfully most sane people nowadays realise it is totally inappropriate to be wearing such repugnant symbols in a divided society. 

Quote from: Donagh on October 28, 2009, 04:23:55 PM

Quote from: delboy on October 28, 2009, 04:14:37 PM
Yes, I believe it should be left completely at the discretion of the individual.

So you disagree with the policies at BBC and UTV which requires local presenters to wear it? Hardly a progressive line of thought but sadly one that's only too rare among unionists especially when they think they're getting one up on the other side.

One the positive side, I work in a building with about 70 others, where Fenians would be in the minority and there isn't one person wearing it and haven't been over the past few years. Thankfully most sane people nowadays realise it is totally inappropriate to be wearing such repugnant symbols in a divided society.

I've stated my position quite clearly, it should be left up to the individual its f**k all business of anyone else, if said person at the beeb/UTV doesn't want to wear one then they shouldn't. I really can't spell it out much more clearly than that.

Quote from: rossie mad on October 28, 2009, 10:13:41 AM
I dont want to go off on a tangent here but i was up in the north two weeks ago.

I was heading up to a friend from between banbridge and castlewellan or newcastle i think.
The route i took was armagh city,pontyzpass,loughlowbridge i think, banbridge and then the castlewellan road and i turned off somewhere on that road.

I noticed that every so often there was a UJ or Northern flag flying from different telephone poles and the markethill road there was a fair few splattered.

Then when i went down to my friend who lives on an oul country road i noticed a big farmyard beside his house and a lot of good land to the back and a big white pole with a UJ flying.

This wasnt the first big farm i noticed with a UJ flying outside on a long pole.

My friend is nationalist but is not political.He doesnt care as long as theres peace which is my oulook too.The easy option maybe but it actually irked me that every morning when my friend and his neighbours wakes up they sees this flying and even though they dont seem to care i have to say it would bother me.

Im maybe naive as my trips to the north has only been to crossmaglen and enniskillen a couple times to watch roscommon and yes even though there was a nice few tricolours in cross i never seemed to notice anything else.

On the trip two weeks ago i genuinely seen only one tricolour in the north and alot of bunting and flags for peares og in armagh city.

On the way home i decided going through the republic i would look for tricolours and see were we as genorous with the flag flying.

I went through monaghan cavan and leitrim and down to south roscommon.
I seen two. One outside the slieve russel hotel in cavan and one outside the mbna building in carrick on shannon.

My point is this are the UJs been flown for triumphalism or insecurity?

Was it just the route i took that was unionism favoured or is there other areas in the north where the tricolour is flown every half mile along a road?

that particular road that you took, was a haven for the blue brigade in this county, Armagh City was covered in the harps and og's colours and still is.

the unionists use the UJ etc like a dog use's its urine, to mark their place! We as nationalists / republicans however dont feel the same need to let people know we are there, hence the lack of tricolours on your visit.

So in answer to your question, its a mix of insecurity, triumphalism, ignorance & bigotry

Personally I hate them (Red Poppy), I also have a distaste for the Easter Lilly. Strangely I have attended both nationalist commerations and the peace commeration to soldiers of all wars, which was attended by personal of the Irish Security Services, the Irish Guards (British Army), US, UN Irish soldiers etc. For some reason I have no problem praying for the souls of Irishmen who have fought in the armies of Ireland & the World and the Rebellions of Ireland & the World, yet the Poppy & the Easter Lilly stinks of Facism to me (not saying either are, just both make me feal a little dirty). Then again I have no problem getting ash stuck to my forhead on Ash-Wednesday! In fact in on Anzac day in Australia I was at a Melbourne train station and an elderly soldier was selling Anzac Badges, I contributed the AUS$2 (if I can recall) but refused the badge, he asked why not. My response was that I respected their sacrifice but I am an Irishman and we have a different perspective on history to the children of the Empire. He laughed and said his wife was part Irish and he understood why.

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on October 28, 2009, 09:34:21 AM

Quote from: Archie Mitchell on October 28, 2009, 08:44:36 AM
It gives the unionists yet another chance to play the religion card. Imagine the uproar if people freely wore an Easter Lily to work etc?

At least the Lily is only worn on Easter Sunday. I don;t have a problem with remembrance Sunday and all that craic, But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year.

we're getting earlier ourselves
http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=9970.0 (http://gaaboard.com/board/index.php?topic=9970.0)

I havent seen a poppy here yet.

Neither presenter on UTV Live wearing a poppy tonight - is this only a BBC directive?

Quote from: aontroim on October 28, 2009, 06:15:33 PM
Neither presenter on UTV Live wearing a poppy tonight - is this only a BBC directive?

UTV only permit them to be worn between the 2nd of Nov and whenever 'Poppy Day' is - I remember Peter the Punt going ballistic about it last year. Soo unpatriotic don't ya know. 

FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one. 

If I meet any of them clowns around Boyle  >:( wearing them this year there could well be fisticuffs.
I will never cease to oppose the practice of wearing a symbol that supports Black and Tans, Derry murderers etc etc.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one.

The Royal British Legion is the UK's leading charity providing financial, social and emotional support to millions who have served or are currently serving in the Armed Forces, and their dependants. Thanks to our supporters, we are able to provide the folllowing essential services.

(www.poppy.org.uk)

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one.

No it's not. From the British Legion website:

"The Royal British Legion safeguards the welfare, interests and memory of those who are serving or who have served in the Armed Forces."

There not being too many survivors hanging around from the world wars, I presume this would more likely include those responsible for the likes of Bloody Sunday and countless other atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands etc..., those involved in recruiting, arming and directing loyalist paramilitaries in the north, those who served with the murderous paramilitary force of the UDR/RIR. I object strongly to anyone that would have us sanitise that shower of shite.

Quote from: Donagh on October 28, 2009, 06:32:45 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one.

No it's not. From the British Legion website:

"The Royal British Legion safeguards the welfare, interests and memory of those who are serving or who have served in the Armed Forces."

There not being too many survivors hanging around from the world wars, I presume this would more likely include those responsible for the likes of Bloody Sunday and countless other atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands etc..., those involved in recruiting, arming and directing loyalist paramilitaries in the north, those who served with the murderous paramilitary force of the UDR/RIR. I object strongly to anyone that would have us sanitise that shower of shite.

Well brave man let's see how many people you object to wearing a poppy. Let us know how you get on.

If people want to wear one it's none of your business. Agree with the other posters though that the BBC and UTV have no right to impose it.

Some people maybe do wear it to rile "the other side", I'm not sure too many do though. Either way anyone that gets offended by it is extremely precious and going out of their way to be offended. Life Is too short chaps.

Quote from: Donagh on October 28, 2009, 06:32:45 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one.

No it's not. From the British Legion website:

"The Royal British Legion safeguards the welfare, interests and memory of those who are serving or who have served in the Armed Forces."

There not being too many survivors hanging around from the world wars, I presume this would more likely include those responsible for the likes of Bloody Sunday and countless other atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands etc..., those involved in recruiting, arming and directing loyalist paramilitaries in the north, those who served with the murderous paramilitary force of the UDR/RIR. I object strongly to anyone that would have us sanitise that shower of shite.

but it is a British thing, having family who fought in WW1 and extended family as Irishmen but for the British Army and other who joined the french army I do not think they would expect me to wear a poppy. if there was a national day in Ireland and we had our own symbol I think they would be happy with that.

i know the family that fought in WW2 had wrote many laters stating that they could not stand by as the world was at war and felt that they need to help out in the war for the freedom of europe but they never felt anything other than Irishmen fighting in a World War and I think it is a disgrace that the Irishmen that fought in WW1 and WW2 and not remembered better in this country....but wearing a poppy is no way to remember them.

Quote from: Donagh on October 28, 2009, 06:32:45 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one.

No it's not. From the British Legion website:

"The Royal British Legion safeguards the welfare, interests and memory of those who are serving or who have served in the Armed Forces."

There not being too many survivors hanging around from the world wars, I presume this would more likely include those responsible for the likes of Bloody Sunday and countless other atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands etc..., those involved in recruiting, arming and directing loyalist paramilitaries in the north, those who served with the murderous paramilitary force of the UDR/RIR. I object strongly to anyone that would have us sanitise that shower of shite.

OK-I thot it was to remember World War dead... still if people want to wear it, thats their business. I choose not to... freedom.   

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 08:15:54 PM

Quote from: Donagh on October 28, 2009, 06:32:45 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 06:21:08 PM
FREEDOM includes the right of people to wear their poppy in peace. Is a symbol of the British killed in the World Wars so people are entitled to remember them as they see fit. As I am not British I don't feel inclined to wear one.

No it's not. From the British Legion website:

"The Royal British Legion safeguards the welfare, interests and memory of those who are serving or who have served in the Armed Forces."

There not being too many survivors hanging around from the world wars, I presume this would more likely include those responsible for the likes of Bloody Sunday and countless other atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Falklands etc..., those involved in recruiting, arming and directing loyalist paramilitaries in the north, those who served with the murderous paramilitary force of the UDR/RIR. I object strongly to anyone that would have us sanitise that shower of shite.

OK-I thot it was to remember World War dead... still if people want to wear it, thats their business. I choose not to... freedom.

You've gotta give for what you take.

What do you mean Tony? sounds profound tho  :o

Quote from: longrunsthefox on October 28, 2009, 08:23:10 PM
What do you mean Tony? sounds profound tho  :o

Freedom you've gotta give for what you take. It's by one of the greatest philosophers of the 20th century. Google it.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on October 28, 2009, 06:40:18 PM
Well brave man let's see how many people you object to wearing a poppy. Let us know how you get on.

If people want to wear one it's none of your business. Agree with the other posters though that the BBC and UTV have no right to impose it.

Where did I say I object to anyone wearing it big man? I said I object to anyone trying to sanitise it i.e. the BBC forcing people to wear it. Doesn't bother me in the slightlest if some impressionable moron wants to wear hate symbols.

But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

You do occasionally see the occasional oldie wearing a poppy on TV but among the masses it is not done.  ANZAC day is a big thing over here but it has been hijacked by the mob mentality and along with Australia Day is becoming a boorish propaganda stunt imo.  It's amazing how many Australians (I can't speak for the Kiwis) don't actually know what happened at Gallipoli, how they were sent to fight a losing battle by the British.

It is big in Perth but is inclusive of all the Aussie forces.  I took my son to see his Granddad parade two years ago and was disgusted to see a unit of the Apartheid S.African army, members of which now live in Perth, marching.  Fcukin disgusted me and I commented on that to some beside me.  They had no idea what the former S.African flag was, (which was being flown - not the modern flag). 

I'm no fan of the Australian flag but it is amazing how defiled it has become over here.  I think it is disgraceful that a nation should allow its flag to be on boxer shorts, beach towels, bikinis, sarongs etc.  the number of times you see a flag on the ground especially on Aus Day is amazing.

I watched a show here recently where one of Australia's foremost singers, from the Torres Strait Islands, found out that her grandfather who led forces against the Japanese (the facts of which were recorded by the Australian military too btw) was refused his pay because he wasn't considered an Aussie.  You wonder who the fascists really were!

Quote from: Aerlik on October 29, 2009, 06:48:50 AM
It's amazing how many Australians (I can't speak for the Kiwis) don't actually know what happened at Gallipoli, how they were sent to fight a losing battle by the British.

Where most of the loses at gallipoli not british?

Quote from: nifan on October 29, 2009, 09:52:16 AM

Quote from: Aerlik on October 29, 2009, 06:48:50 AM
It's amazing how many Australians (I can't speak for the Kiwis) don't actually know what happened at Gallipoli, how they were sent to fight a losing battle by the British.

Where most of the loses at gallipoli not british?

Gallipoli casualties
Source: Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs[28]   

                                          Died           Wounded          Total
Total Allies                           44,092        96,937              141,029
- United Kingdom                  21,255        52,230             73,485
- France (estimated)             10,000        17,000              27,000
- Australia[4]                         8,709        19,441              28,150
- New Zealand[4]                   2,721          4,752                7,473
- India                                  1,358          3,421                4,779
- Newfoundland                         49              93                   142
Ottoman empire (estimated) 86,692       164,617            251,309
Total (both sides)              130,784        237,290            336,048


In terms of percentages of total populations on the Allies side, Australia and poss New Zealand lost a hell of a lot more then UK.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 29, 2009, 11:27:21 AM

Quote from: nifan on October 29, 2009, 09:52:16 AM

Quote from: Aerlik on October 29, 2009, 06:48:50 AM
It's amazing how many Australians (I can't speak for the Kiwis) don't actually know what happened at Gallipoli, how they were sent to fight a losing battle by the British.

Where most of the loses at gallipoli not british?

Gallipoli casualties
Source: Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs[28]   

                                          Died           Wounded          Total
Total Allies                           44,092        96,937              141,029
- United Kingdom                  21,255        52,230             73,485
- France (estimated)             10,000        17,000              27,000
- Australia[4]                         8,709        19,441              28,150
- New Zealand[4]                   2,721          4,752                7,473
- India                                  1,358          3,421                4,779
- Newfoundland                         49              93                   142
Ottoman empire (estimated) 86,692       164,617            251,309
Total (both sides)              130,784        237,290            336,048


In terms of percentcentages of total populations on the Allies side, Australia and poss New Zealand lost a hell of a lot more then UK.

Ya but those British figures hide massif Irish losses. I visite the War Memorial in Canberra, the most interesting I have ever seen & its massif. It also looks at the losses of non-Birtish Empire allies such as Franch or opposing forces such as The Ottomans, Japanese and Germans. There was one part where I did get a slight bit irritated however when a tour guide pointed to the overall numbers of dead from different countries or parts of the Empire, he pointed out the British figure & I mumbled ("and Irish") he asked what and I repeated it should have the Irish figures seperate as they had listed the Indians, Australians, New Zealand etc. seperate and I said are less British than all of them.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2009, 06:25:18 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 29, 2009, 11:27:21 AM

Quote from: nifan on October 29, 2009, 09:52:16 AM

Quote from: Aerlik on October 29, 2009, 06:48:50 AM
It's amazing how many Australians (I can't speak for the Kiwis) don't actually know what happened at Gallipoli, how they were sent to fight a losing battle by the British.

Where most of the loses at gallipoli not british?

Gallipoli casualties
Source: Australian Department of Veterans' Affairs[28]   

                                          Died           Wounded          Total
Total Allies                           44,092        96,937              141,029
- United Kingdom                  21,255        52,230             73,485
- France (estimated)             10,000        17,000              27,000
- Australia[4]                         8,709        19,441              28,150
- New Zealand[4]                   2,721          4,752                7,473
- India                                  1,358          3,421                4,779
- Newfoundland                         49              93                   142
Ottoman empire (estimated) 86,692       164,617            251,309
Total (both sides)              130,784        237,290            336,048


In terms of percentcentages of total populations on the Allies side, Australia and poss New Zealand lost a hell of a lot more then UK.

Ya but those British figures hide massif Irish losses. I visite the War Memorial in Canberra, the most interesting I have ever seen & its massif. It also looks at the losses of non-Birtish Empire allies such as Franch or opposing forces such as The Ottomans, Japanese and Germans. There was one part where I did get a slight bit irritated however when a tour guide pointed to the overall numbers of dead from different countries or parts of the Empire, he pointed out the British figure & I mumbled ("and Irish") he asked what and I repeated it should have the Irish figures seperate as they had listed the Indians, Australians, New Zealand etc. seperate and I said are less British than all of them.

In the grand scheme of things it dosen't matter of the flag on their  sleeve, what matters is that millions of young men died for what they thought was right and there is no point blaming the British.
Men died from all corners of the earth, not just Ireland and people like yer man above have to accept this. One must only look at the extraordinary numbers of Russians who perished in the Great War. Even if Irish people did die every man helped to defeat the greater good and that's what must be remembered. The poppy symbolises this, and even if you'd like to believe it is just for the British it is the most truly universal symbol of "our boys" who gave their ife for freedom.

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

Horseshit. While only a couple of thousand men took part in the Easter Rising, tens of thousands were off serving in the trenches, most in the uniform of the British Army. Hard one for republicans to swallow, but absolutely true.

QuoteMen died from all corners of the earth, not just Ireland and people like yer man above have to accept this.

Indeed they did and it is right and proper that Ireland take its place among the nations of the world in commemorating this. However commemoration of the First World War is not the main object, otherwise you wouldn't have people coming on here advocating the use of a paper lapel poppy, a symbol of British nationalism, as the form of commemoration. If commemoration was the main objective a neutral approach would be taken so that everyone could join in. These poppyists are pushing their own colonial political agenda at the expense of the commemoration of the First World War. 

British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.
[/quote]
what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?
[/quote]

Alot of Irishmen from the north in WW2 seen themselves as British. Do you really think Germany would have left Ireland do what they wanted had Britain lost the war? pl!easssse! There would have been no independent 26 county Ireland for a start.

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 11:13:38 PM


British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?
[/quote]

Alot of Irishmen from the north in WW2 seen themselves as British. Do you really think Germany would have left Ireland do what they wanted had Britain lost the war? pl!easssse! There would have been no independent 26 county Ireland for a start.
[/quote]
Germany never did f**k all against the Irish. they had no interst goodbad or indifferent.  And sorry no even alowing for the dubious logic of anIrish man cosidering himself British he definetly was not doing his countries bidding unless you condifer the Irish republic to be an illegitimate state. and if you do i think you lost in cyber space.

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 29, 2009, 08:28:43 PM

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

Horseshit. While only a couple of thousand men took part in the Easter Rising, tens of thousands were off serving in the trenches, most in the uniform of the British Army. Hard one for republicans to swallow, but absolutely true.

nobody eve denied that ther were not thousands of cowardly quisling fight ing for the english and all have their name on trators gate in stephens green . where their shame can be seen for the generations.
and can you tell me exactly what the 'greater good ' Was in defeating the German in WWI apart from defending the british empire while your at it tell me exactly what the english were doing in gallipoli in the first place .
the freedom of small nations? while murdering the Irish, a small nation they could actually do something about.

While I think Rosnarun is being a bit over the top, the British side started WWI, a war started by Serb Terrorists.

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on October 29, 2009, 11:42:53 PM
While I think Rosnarun is being a bit over the top, the British side started WWI, a war started by Serb Terrorists.

I think Rosnarun is blocked and listening the The Wolfe Tones.

Quote


British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

[/quote]
Germany never did f**k all against the Irish. they had no interst goodbad or indifferent. cyspace.
[/quote]

Germany did feck all against the irish. Thats true. Do you really think, and im repeating my-self, they would have left Ireland alone if they had ruled Europe? And i see its hard for you to get your head around the fact that a million Irish people see themselves also as British, now and during the war

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 11:35:01 PM
Germany never did f**k all against the Irish.

"...and if you know your history..."

QuoteThe Bombing of Dublin in World War II occurred on 31 May 1941, when amid World War II, the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) bombed Dublin, the capital of neutral Ireland (Éire), killing 34 persons.

...and...

QuoteDespite its neutrality, Ireland (i.e., Éire; the island excluding Northern Ireland) had not been totally spared German air bombardment before the Dublin raid. Earlier bombing raids of Éire included:

26 August 1940, German bombs were dropped on County Wexford, the bombs hitting Duncormick and Ambrosetown did no discernible damage. However, a bomb hit a restaurant in Campile killing 3 persons. In 1943, the German government paid £9000 in compensation.
20 December 1940, German bombs hit Carrickmacross, County Monaghan, and Dun Laoghaire and the Sandycove railway station, both near Dublin. There were no fatalities, but 3 persons were injured.
1 January 1941, German bombs hit Duleek and Julianstown (both County Meath), without casualties.
2 January 1941, German bombs hit Terenure in Dublin, destroying several houses and injuring 7 persons, and Ballymurn (County Wexford) without casualties. Dublin itself (Fortfield Road) was hit, without damage or casualties, and the nearby and Curragh Racecourse was hit with incendiary devices, and other bombs hit County Wicklow. German bombs also destroyed a house in Knockroe (County Carlow), killing 3 persons.
3 January 1941, Dublin was again hit by German bombers, this time injuring 20 persons.

Could you not even wear a poppy in solidarity for the Irish that died?

And by the way, the only reason the Germans didn't invade Eire during WWII was because they knew the British would have come to Eire's rescue.  It might have been in self-defence, yes, but it's true nonetheless.

Sorry, it should also be pointed out that attacks by Germans on Eire's soil was still not enough to turn the "Emergency" (I hate that term) into a War.  Turns out that, when it comes to a proper war, Dev was as yellow as a duck's ass.  Maybe that's why true Irishmen from the 26 counties donned the British uniform in WWII.

Quotenobody eve denied that ther were not thousands of cowardly quisling fight ing for the english and all have their name on trators gate in stephens green . where their shame can be seen for the generations.

as far as i know and i am open to correction on this the names on tratiors gate relate to those who died during the Boer war

Yep...... "Traitors' Gate" commemorates the Boer War dead.

Quote from: Aerlik on October 28, 2009, 10:53:41 AM
I notice the Dutch, French or Belgians don't bother with the poppy.  Does anyone know why that might be?

like the aussies - these people buy one (or more) but dont need to show it as a 'badge' of their identity as they do in the six counties or enger-land  (where johnny foreigner needs to be reminded annually of who won two world wars and one world cup etc etc)
:D

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 12:01:14 PM

Quote from: Orior on October 28, 2009, 10:47:55 AM
The vast vast vast majority in the north of Ireland wear it to remind themselves and everyone else that they're british.
My mum would buy one, but would never be seen wearing it (I hope! lol)

Does that mean your mum is a (secret) Brit?  ???

Maybe his mum wants to make a charitable donation to those that have survived wars and need a helping hand (isn't that a significant part of the poppy idealism) but doesn't want to be associated with those that have hijacked the symbolism to represent the fact their Brits?

Being charitable without flaunting it? Commendable really. 

/Jim.

Quote from: Tonto on October 30, 2009, 09:32:57 AM

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 11:35:01 PM
Germany never did f**k all against the Irish.

"...and if you know your history..."

QuoteThe Bombing of Dublin in World War II occurred on 31 May 1941, when amid World War II, the German Air Force (Luftwaffe) bombed Dublin, the capital of neutral Ireland (Éire), killing 34 persons.

...and...

QuoteDespite its neutrality, Ireland (i.e., Éire; the island excluding Northern Ireland) had not been totally spared German air bombardment before the Dublin raid. Earlier bombing raids of Éire included:

26 August 1940, German bombs were dropped on County Wexford, the bombs hitting Duncormick and Ambrosetown did no discernible damage. However, a bomb hit a restaurant in Campile killing 3 persons. In 1943, the German government paid £9000 in compensation.
20 December 1940, German bombs hit Carrickmacross, County Monaghan, and Dun Laoghaire and the Sandycove railway station, both near Dublin. There were no fatalities, but 3 persons were injured.
1 January 1941, German bombs hit Duleek and Julianstown (both County Meath), without casualties.
2 January 1941, German bombs hit Terenure in Dublin, destroying several houses and injuring 7 persons, and Ballymurn (County Wexford) without casualties. Dublin itself (Fortfield Road) was hit, without damage or casualties, and the nearby and Curragh Racecourse was hit with incendiary devices, and other bombs hit County Wicklow. German bombs also destroyed a house in Knockroe (County Carlow), killing 3 persons.
3 January 1941, Dublin was again hit by German bombers, this time injuring 20 persons.

Could you not even wear a poppy in solidarity for the Irish that died?
.

I consider that poppy thing as being in solidarity with the  British Army who down the years in various guises killed thousands upon thousands of Irish people.
I only wear an Easter lily to honour the brave souls who died for Ireland fighting the biggest meanest greediest most evil Empire ever visited upon the non British people of the World. ;)

Quote from: Tonto on October 30, 2009, 09:35:26 AM
Sorry, it should also be pointed out that attacks by Germans on Eire's soil was still not enough to turn the "Emergency" (I hate that term) into a War.  Turns out that, when it comes to a proper war, Dev was as yellow as a duck's ass.  Maybe that's why true Irishmen from the 26 counties donned the British uniform in WWII.

True Irishmen put on British army uniforms?

Get real

I would never wear a poppy but I dont have any problem with those that do, I do however find it amazing that so many irishmen fought for the british army over a period spanning generations. I would rather die than fight for that shower of hoors.

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 29, 2009, 08:28:43 PM

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

Horseshit. While only a couple of thousand men took part in the Easter Rising, tens of thousands were off serving in the trenches, most in the uniform of the British Army. Hard one for republicans to swallow, but absolutely true.

Yes we all know it's true, most of them in fact had no other income and had to join.

Quote from: stew on October 30, 2009, 08:51:41 PM
I would never wear a poppy but I dont have any problem with those that do, I do however find it amazing that so many irishmen fought for the british army over a period spanning generations. I would rather die than fight for that shower of hoors.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

The definition of a true Irishman? - Doesn't exist. Why the feck do we speak English? Head south of Kinsale and it's French. Head east of Scotland and it's that thon stuff yer lads out of The Muppets spake. We drink Guinness and bow to English sport/music.

Quote from: hardstation on October 31, 2009, 01:21:10 AM
We had a small problem in work regarding the poppy. A right few wearing the poppy but others were wearing a pin with a wee tiny poppy and a gunman. It was accepted to be ok by the company. One of the 'gunman wearers' made a remark to the boy who complained saying "We'll remember them. Is that ok?"

The boy allegedly said, "I'm happy enough, they're still f**king dead".

A bit of madness but calm was restored.

:o

fightin talk, Hardstation.  I can just see yer auld doll with the rolling pin rolling up the sleeves. EEEEEEK

Its pisses me off, I find it offensive TBH, worked with an english company in Ireland and the clowns who wore it hadnt a clue what it means.

I wouldnt fall out over it (id be out of a job) especially the clowns that dont know what it means. I dont be long telling them your supporting the scum who shot innocent women and children at human rights rally in Derry who were unarmed on Bloody Sunday. So instead of jail time your donating to their nice and cosy retirement.

The Germany debate is irrelevant imo, the poppy is to support ex brit legion soldiers of all wars. Wasnt just the brits who died in the world wars as has been said. If the poppy was to remember just the 2 world wars and help the soldiers from that finincially in the aftermath then I wouldnt have a problem. Problem is it doenst stop there.

What really pisses me off is that they are selling them in my work place at the entrance....In a civil service building....Where you are not allowed to wear any "emblems"

There are lots of places to buy them if you want you don't have to bring them in to workplaces...

Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 30, 2009, 10:58:02 PM

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 29, 2009, 08:28:43 PM

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

Horseshit. While only a couple of thousand men took part in the Easter Rising, tens of thousands were off serving in the trenches, most in the uniform of the British Army. Hard one for republicans to swallow, but absolutely true.

Yes we all know it's true, most of them in fact had no other income and had to join.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps.

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 31, 2009, 11:41:02 AM

Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 30, 2009, 10:58:02 PM

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 29, 2009, 08:28:43 PM

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

Horseshit. While only a couple of thousand men took part in the Easter Rising, tens of thousands were off serving in the trenches, most in the uniform of the British Army. Hard one for republicans to swallow, but absolutely true.

Yes we all know it's true, most of them in fact had no other income and had to join.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps.

Tell me differently then. Go on.

Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 31, 2009, 01:49:14 PM

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 31, 2009, 11:41:02 AM

Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 30, 2009, 10:58:02 PM

Quote from: Myles Na G. on October 29, 2009, 08:28:43 PM

Quote from: rosnarun on October 29, 2009, 02:43:19 AM

Quote from: dillinger on October 29, 2009, 12:38:32 AM



But it isnt until 8th Nov, the poppies have been on show from last Thursday. It gets earlier by the year


I agree peoplw wear them too early, I wear one, but not till the start of November. In my mind im wearing it to rem not just the British and Irish soldiers who died but also others who did their countries bidding.

what irish solider died to do their countries bidding? only traitors and remondites fighting for england. men who readily took the shilling to fight aginst their own countrymen. the type of f**ker that is killing children in Iraq/afghanistan now
but some how thinks he can justify his murder as it was only done for the money.
as as for your ealier assertion that the english were fighting germany in 1914 to keep the German out of Ireland ? do you really think that or are you on a wind up?

Horseshit. While only a couple of thousand men took part in the Easter Rising, tens of thousands were off serving in the trenches, most in the uniform of the British Army. Hard one for republicans to swallow, but absolutely true.

Yes we all know it's true, most of them in fact had no other income and had to join.

Keep telling yourself that if it helps.

Tell me differently then. Go on.

I don't doubt that some joined up for economic reasons. Many others, however, went in because either they believed the propaganda of the time and thought they were stopping the evil hun empire, or because they thought that the British would keep their promise to deliver Home Rule after the war. And some probably believed both of those things.

Do you believe the British would have kept their promise to deliver HR Myles? I for one don't. Any opinion from the rest of you regarding this issue?

As there is no one left from WW1 those poppies arent being sold for them.
They are simply looking after the current and recent British soldiers  including the likes of Clegg,the cnut that shot Aiden McAnespie and the Derry murderers and many others who committed deeds of disgrace.
I can understand why Brits and Unionists might buy them but any non Unionist Irishman who does is beneath contempt. >:(

What really pisses me off is that they are selling them in my work place at the entrance....In a civil service building....Where you are not allowed to wear any "emblems"

There are lots of places to buy them if you want you don't have to bring them in to workplaces...
[/quote] 

And i would guess in your work place 2 wks ago they had a collection box for the R.N.L.I., hope its not the Royal bit that offends you. Yes i know, im just stirring it! I work in a civil service building my=self. :)

 I have no objection to anybody wearing a poppy. It is very narrow minded of anyone to see this as a sign of a particular religion/political views or nationality. Many irishmen lost their lives while in the forces not because of their nationality or lack of it. They simply saw it as an opportunity to earn money when times were hard. Many people are still losing their lives for the same reason. It is very judgemental of society to condone anybody wearing an emblem relating to history to an event in time to which they have remembrance of.

Quote from: croker on November 01, 2009, 01:10:11 AM
I have no objection to anybody wearing a poppy. It is very narrow minded of anyone to see this as a sign of a particular religion/political views or nationality. Many Irishmen lost their lives while in the forces not because of their nationality or lack of it. They simply saw it as an opportunity to earn money when times were hard. Many people are still losing their lives for the same reason. It is very judgemental of society to condone anybody wearing an emblem relating to history to an event in time to which they have remembrance of.

So tell me again who wears the poppy?  ::)

As for this crap that we were saved from German rule, if memory serves me right Switzerland was next to Germany and they weren't invaded!

Well according to your statiscis a lot of irish fought in wars under a different group name in ww1 &2 .So some irish are definitely wearing the poppy if they or there family served in the WAR  ;)

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 01, 2009, 01:28:20 AM

Quote from: croker on November 01, 2009, 01:10:11 AM
I have no objection to anybody wearing a poppy. It is very narrow minded of anyone to see this as a sign of a particular religion/political views or nationality. Many Irishmen lost their lives while in the forces not because of their nationality or lack of it. They simply saw it as an opportunity to earn money when times were hard. Many people are still losing their lives for the same reason. It is very judgemental of society to condone anybody wearing an emblem relating to history to an event in time to which they have remembrance of.

So tell me again who wears the poppy?  ::)

As for this crap that we were saved from German rule, if memory serves me right Switzerland was next to Germany and they weren't invaded!

You're older than I thought!!  But Switzerland is a very different case to Eire in WWII:
1.  Harsh landscape makes invasion difficult.
2.  No strategic importance made it unnecessary.
3.  Many Swiss are 'ethnically' German.
4.  Switzerland and Germany had good relations.

However:
1.  Eire was weak militarily (tiny navy would have made invasion impossible to repulse from an island nation and no air force).
2.  Great strategic importance.  Invading Eire would have put the Germans onto the same piece of land as the British in NI and also effectively have surrounded Britain on one side.

Just noticed Eddie Jordan isn't wearing one on the BBC. Don't know what the score is there.

How do you surround something on one side?

good man Eddie Jordan

Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2009, 12:34:48 PM
How do you surround something on one side?

You're quite right, don't know what I was thinking.  To the west by Eire and to the south by France.

I take it that because of your pedantry that you have nothing else of note to say?

Don't do that.

Quote from: Tonto on November 01, 2009, 11:32:46 AM
You're older than I thought!!  But Switzerland is a very different case to Eire in WWII:
1.  Harsh landscape makes invasion difficult.
2.  No strategic importance made it unnecessary.
3.  Many Swiss are 'ethnically' German.
4.  Switzerland and Germany had good relations.

However:
1.  Eire was weak militarily (tiny navy would have made invasion impossible to repulse from an island nation and no air force).
2.  Great strategic importance.  Invading Eire would have put the Germans onto the same piece of land as the British in NI and also effectively have surrounded Britain on one side.

Anyway, to persevere with my one-man celebration of pedantry, I'm surprised that your meticulousness in referring to countries by their official names in their official languages collapses after the sum total of only one of the selection of countries, nations and states you mention. I can understand your reluctance to tackle the unwieldiness of a phrase like "Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft/Confédération Suisse/Confederazione Svizzera/Confederaziun Svizzer/Confoederatio Helvetica and Deutschland had good relations" but why go out of your way to change languages just to state the name of Ireland?

Quote from: down6061689194 on November 01, 2009, 12:28:08 PM
Just noticed Eddie Jordan isn't wearing one on the BBC. Don't know what the score is there.

Common sense on EJs behalf.
I have nothing against people wearing poppies, but the BBC seem to force it upon people. EJ is one of the very few people you will see on the beeb without a poppy. Rememberance day is getting as bad as Christmas, we get reminded of it earlier every year.

Of course one of the big ironies is that Edward Carson had lunch with the Kaiser just before the war started, seeking his help to fight home rule. Carson also declared that he'd rather that Ulster be ruled by the Kaiser than Redmond. Protestant Wilhelm was told he'd make a grand ruler of Ulster. It's surely time the c**k was added back into the poppy.

I play the  Poppy watch game for most shows on TV - I noticed that Dara O'Briain wasn't wearing one on Jonathon Ross on Friday night.

Quote from: Estimator on November 01, 2009, 01:59:18 PM
I play the  Poppy watch game for most shows on TV - I noticed that Dara O'Briain wasn't wearing one on Jonathon Ross on Friday night.

Contact Donagh, he will be submitting a full dossier of poppy wearers and abstentionists in the coming weeks.

Whats the big deal if some Irish people wear a poppy on british tv. Not everyones political beliefs are the same. it probably makes no difference for some people putting a wee flower on for half an hour.

Quote from: Tonto on November 01, 2009, 11:32:46 AM
You're older than I thought!!  But Switzerland is a very different case to Eire in WWII:
1.  Harsh landscape makes invasion difficult.
2.  No strategic importance made it unnecessary.
3.  Many Swiss are 'ethnically' German.
4.  Switzerland and Germany had good relations.

1.  Not so. 
2.  Not so.  Invading Die Schweiz would have created a full Baltic to Med./Adriatic front and the perfect launch pad into the heart of France, considerning the Aye-ties were pro-Germany.
3.  Elaborate!  If you mean Teutonic, that is open to debate.
4.  So did Austria and Germany, or so it thought.  Despite being an Oesterreicher himself, AH won no friends by annexing Austria.

The Rothschilds and their cohorts made sure Uncle Adolf was paid to stay out.

Quote from: ONeill on October 31, 2009, 12:51:49 AM

Quote from: stew on October 30, 2009, 08:51:41 PM
I would never wear a poppy but I dont have any problem with those that do, I do however find it amazing that so many irishmen fought for the british army over a period spanning generations. I would rather die than fight for that shower of hoors.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

The definition of a true Irishman? - Doesn't exist. Why the feck do we speak English? Head south of Kinsale and it's French. Head east of Scotland and it's that thon stuff yer lads out of The Muppets spake. We drink Guinness and bow to English sport/music.

They have been invaders for centuries Shane, they were bound to have influence over us but you are right, our Irishness has been diluted by them and sadly that was their intent all along.

Quote from: stew on November 01, 2009, 03:30:30 PM

Quote from: ONeill on October 31, 2009, 12:51:49 AM

Quote from: stew on October 30, 2009, 08:51:41 PM
I would never wear a poppy but I dont have any problem with those that do, I do however find it amazing that so many irishmen fought for the british army over a period spanning generations. I would rather die than fight for that shower of hoors.

That's the tip of the iceberg.

The definition of a true Irishman? - Doesn't exist. Why the feck do we speak English? Head south of Kinsale and it's French. Head east of Scotland and it's that thon stuff yer lads out of The Muppets spake. We drink Guinness and bow to English sport/music.

They have been invaders for centuries Shane, they were bound to have influence over us but you are right, our Irishness has been diluted by them and sadly that was their intent all along.

I think you got half of O'Neill's point. There is no such thing as Irishness as you see it. Irishness is the sum of many parts over many centuries, indigenous Irish, English, Scottish, French, Northern European etc. etc.

The Birmingham City team have them attached to their shirts today in the game v Man City.

Quote from: Minder on November 01, 2009, 04:13:26 PM
The Birmingham City team have them attached to their shirts today in the game v Man City.

Jeeze that's idiotic.

A directive from that particular manager I would say.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 01, 2009, 02:16:51 PM
Contact Donagh, he will be submitting a full dossier of poppy wearers and abstentionists in the coming weeks.

Ahh bless... look who's developed a wee crush, it's the 'community worker with the big EU grant'  :-*

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 01, 2009, 04:14:48 PM

Quote from: Minder on November 01, 2009, 04:13:26 PM
The Birmingham City team have them attached to their shirts today in the game v Man City.

Jeeze that's idiotic.

Burnley had the same yesterday!

Some shit talked on this thread, its impressive though to find so many skilled mind readers in one place, their ability to get inside other peoples heads (namely poppy wearers) and winkle out nefarious thoughts is truly remarkable  ::)

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 01, 2009, 06:27:32 PM
A directive from that particular manager I would say.

He must have been managing Celtic last year then so.

Martin O'Neill OBE wasn't sporting one on Saturday.

Just watching Sheff Utd v's Newcastle on sky, Shay Given is in the studio analysing the game along with James Beattie and AN OTHER. Shay is the only one NOT wearing a poppy  ;D

Watching Sky last night Hairy Keys, Tony Adams & Graeme Souness all had poppies on their lapel but Henrik the King of Kings was poppyless, then when I turned it over after the games he was wearing one.  Complaints I wonder?

I was praising his independence for not wearing one at the start, you just wonder what pressure was brought to bear that made him change his mind  ???

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

Quote from: Declan on October 28, 2009, 10:31:16 AM

QuoteIn the south Superquinn and such places use the flag to encourage you to stay away from Aldi and Lidl. True patriots.

Must say I've never seen that Zap - Wherabouts?

Sundrive anyway and also in Walkinstown and Firhouse IIRC...

Here's an excellent piece:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/nov/05/poppy-appeal-premier-league

i dont mind the poppy, whilst it gives the other side a chance to remember their brave soldiers, it also serves as a reminder of the murderous atrocities carried out closer to home by those brave brave men. bloody sunday, ballymurphy massacre, springhill shootings, new lodge etc the countless innocent civilians including priests and children. this is what i think of when someone walks past me with a poppy. let them never be forgotten.

Hear Hear !!

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

You linked both together in your example, and the only inference that can be drawn is that the wearing of a GAA top is the equivalent to wearing the poppy, as EG gladly took in the following post!

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:47:28 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Indeed and unless they ("some") had some knowledge of the motives of someone else displaying a GAA symbol, they would be being equally prejudicial.
Thank you for illustrating my point nicely.

The first topic on Vincent Brown lastnight was 'Should we wear a Poppy?'

The fact that it is a hot topic of discussion is a sign of how the Brits still have a hold on the mindset of Irish people.

Stick your Poppy up your ass!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/nov/05/poppy-appeal-premier-league (http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/blog/2009/nov/05/poppy-appeal-premier-league)

We often hear about the poppy being a symbol of remembrance of those who gave their lives so that we might be free...I suppose this includes free to wear the poppy...or not? ???

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 06, 2009, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

You linked both together in your example, and the only inference that can be drawn is that the wearing of a GAA top is the equivalent to wearing the poppy, as EG gladly took in the following post!

No I said a inference that could be drawn by some was the GAA logo was a " feck you badge".
I never compared the GAA logo and the Poppy . Your totally missing the point

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 08:25:14 AM
The first topic on Vincent Brown lastnight was 'Should we wear a Poppy?'

The fact that it is a hot topic of discussion is a sign of how the Brits still have a hold on the mindset of Irish people.

Stick your Poppy up your ass!

Actually it was about the appropriateness of holding a Remembrance Day service. Vincenzo was very agitated as to whether the President should officially attend such as service.  He got in an awful lather about the pointless of WW1 (compare to "heroic wars" although he didn't tell us which wars were "heroic").

The old codger wearing the poppy came out well I thought, he made the point that the service was to commemorate the Irish men that died in Wars, not to commemorate the war or validate the reasons for the war.   Whatever you think about the Brits, WW1 or poppies surely a service to remember the souls of so many fellow country men is appropriate?

/Jim.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2009, 10:23:22 AM
Actually it was about the appropriateness of holding a Remembrance Day service. Vincenzo was very agitated as to whether the President should officially attend such as service.  He got in an awful lather about the pointless of WW1 (compare to "heroic wars" although he didn't tell us which wars were "heroic").

The old codger wearing the poppy came out well I thought, he made the point that the service was to commemorate the Irish men that died in Wars, not to commemorate the war or validate the reasons for the war.   Whatever you think about the Brits, WW1 or poppies surely a service to remember the souls of so many fellow country men is appropriate?
/Jim.

You can not separate the two. Attempts to do so are false. You can't remember the dead without remembering why they died. The revisionism is sickening. Can those responsible for 911 remember their dead as brave men while ignoring the reason they died?


BTW I think the war of independence was a heroic war. The result mightn't have been heroic but the war was.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 10:34:32 AM
You can not separate the two. Attempts to do so are false. You can't remember the dead without remembering why they died. The revisionism is sickening. Can those responsible for 911 remember their dead as brave men while ignoring the reason they died?

I think there is a lot of revisionism going on by judging the War by the standards of today.

The comments by the lad on the right of the panel (Pat something?) about Redmond's appalling (his words) belief in blood sacrifice (a point he failed to back up) while praising 1916 men was odd given that Pearse himself had views in cleansing power of blood sacrifice.

It was an appalling sacrifice of men of this nation (regardless of how things turned out after) and it is appropriate to remember these men rather than celebrate the war.  Either way for all it's failings I don't see WW1 as equivalent to 911. 

/Jim.

There is very little difference in todays standard for war than the standard at the start of the last century. The only difference now is an Irishmans position in the global society. Rather than be at the bottom of the pecking order we are a little futher up the rank.

Don't misrepresent what I'm saying. I was comparing the act of remembering the dead not acts of war.

What do the French do to honour the war dead.

Quote from: thejuice on November 06, 2009, 11:02:31 AM
What do the French do to honour the war dead.

Conduct themselves with a little grace and dignity  ;)

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 06, 2009, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

You linked both together in your example, and the only inference that can be drawn is that the wearing of a GAA top is the equivalent to wearing the poppy, as EG gladly took in the following post!

No I said a inference that could be drawn by some was the GAA logo was a " feck you badge".
I never compared the GAA logo and the Poppy . Your totally missing the point

is the FAI , IRFU, RFU, English FA, English Premier league, American NFL, American NBA logos all 'feck you ' badges  or taken by 'some' as so ..?
::)

of course not FFS !!
::)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 06, 2009, 11:08:50 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 06, 2009, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

You linked both together in your example, and the only inference that can be drawn is that the wearing of a GAA top is the equivalent to wearing the poppy, as EG gladly took in the following post!

No I said a inference that could be drawn by some was the GAA logo was a " feck you badge".
I never compared the GAA logo and the Poppy . Your totally missing the point

is the FAI , IRFU, RFU, English FA, English Premier league, American NFL, American NBA logos all 'feck you ' badges  or taken by 'some' as so ..?
::)

of course not FFS !!
::)

Too some the English FA badge is. As are the others listed . It all depends on the context and the motivation of the person wearing it .  Wearing a Rugby jersey to a FAI event is a bit of a feck you to the FAI from my point of view.

I know a guy who likes to ware a Munster tie as a feck you badge to his Leinster fan boss .

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:02:11 AM
There is very little difference in todays standard for war than the standard at the start of the last century. The only difference now is an Irishmans position in the global society. Rather than be at the bottom of the pecking order we are a little futher up the rank.

Don't misrepresent what I'm saying. I was comparing the act of remembering the dead not acts of war.

So what should we do?   Tell that auld codger and his buddies that they can't have a service next Sunday?

Should the state refuse the invitation extended to the President?

Picket St Patrick's Cathedral during the service and tell them that the Brits still have a hold on their mindset?

/Jim.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2009, 12:36:02 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 11:02:11 AM
There is very little difference in todays standard for war than the standard at the start of the last century. The only difference now is an Irishmans position in the global society. Rather than be at the bottom of the pecking order we are a little futher up the rank.

Don't misrepresent what I'm saying. I was comparing the act of remembering the dead not acts of war.

So what should we do?   Tell that auld codger and his buddies that they can't have a service next Sunday?

Should the state refuse the invitation extended to the President?

Picket St Patrick's Cathedral during the service and tell them that the Brits still have a hold on their mindset?

/Jim.

Have you nothing left to add to the discussion?

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:44:25 PM
Have you nothing left to add to the discussion?

Maybe..........rather than going around the circles I'll ask you to explain how "The fact that it is a hot topic of discussion is a sign of how the Brits still have a hold on the mindset of Irish people."?

/Jim.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2009, 12:56:06 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 12:44:25 PM
Have you nothing left to add to the discussion?

Maybe..........rather than going around the circles I'll ask you to explain how "The fact that it is a hot topic of discussion is a sign of how the Brits still have a hold on the mindset of Irish people."?

/Jim.

The fact that the poppy issue comes up every year and raises emotion in the Irish is an example.
To put it as priority topic of discussion on the main political show on Irish TV is proof.
The Irish people have no business honouring the dead of British wars and the war itself. Many of the Irish people that died should be remembered as victims of British wars. Many of them were mercanaries forced to join the war due to lies and corruption of political leaders in Ireland and Britan. None were heros. Individual acts of heroism were carried out i'm sure but the fallen Irish were victims not heros. Others joined the war due to misrepresentation of the cause. History should reflect on these leaders for what they were. Remembering the dead and the war should reflect what the war was.

We are surrounded by Brits who are trying to guilt us into a false memory of the truth. We are falling for it hook line and sinker.

They can skick their poppy up their arse.

Sickens me that every person that appears on English TV is obliged to wear the poppy. Like what was Henrik Larsson doing wearing one on sky sports the last night, like i doubt he gives two shites. Spare a thought for wee John and Edward having to wear them as well...although, they sound like they hail from the Kingstown area of Dublin so i wouldn't be too sure if they are forced to wear them.

Also, correct me if i;m wrong, doesn't opium which is used for heroin comes from the poppy flower???

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 11:24:39 AM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 06, 2009, 11:08:50 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 06, 2009, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

You linked both together in your example, and the only inference that can be drawn is that the wearing of a GAA top is the equivalent to wearing the poppy, as EG gladly took in the following post!

No I said a inference that could be drawn by some was the GAA logo was a " feck you badge".
I never compared the GAA logo and the Poppy . Your totally missing the point

is the FAI , IRFU, RFU, English FA, English Premier league, American NFL, American NBA logos all 'feck you ' badges  or taken by 'some' as so ..?
::)

of course not FFS !!
::)

Too some the English FA badge is. As are the others listed . It all depends on the context and the motivation of the person wearing it .  Wearing a Rugby jersey to a FAI event is a bit of a feck you to the FAI from my point of view.

I know a guy who likes to ware a Munster tie as a feck you badge to his Leinster fan boss .

are you drunk?, thats not even remotely the same and as per usual this line of thought makes no sense (or point) whatsoever !

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 06, 2009, 01:29:42 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 11:24:39 AM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 06, 2009, 11:08:50 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 09:52:13 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 06, 2009, 01:23:01 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:41:34 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on October 28, 2009, 11:35:03 AM

Quote from: gerry on October 28, 2009, 12:47:48 AM
i find it a feck you badge rather than a mark of respect  to  someone who died in ww1 or ww2.

Have you ever had a conversation with a Poppy wearer to ask why they do so? I daresay that some wear it as a badge of identity, even as a "feck you badge".

However, imo that sort of prejudice is no different from that which you display, when you see a Poppy and automatically condemn the wearer, without knowing a damned thing about him/her.

(http://www.stjudesgaa.ie/_fileUpload/Image/GAA_Logo_2009.jpg)
What some would consider a "feck you badge"

Quote from: Gnevin on November 05, 2009, 11:44:06 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on October 28, 2009, 01:30:45 PM


Btw Gnevin would appreciate it if you didn't try and link the logo of a sporting organisation with a symbol of war.

I did no such thing . I just posted an example of how some logo's and symbols can have different meanings to 2 different sets of people .

You linked both together in your example, and the only inference that can be drawn is that the wearing of a GAA top is the equivalent to wearing the poppy, as EG gladly took in the following post!

No I said a inference that could be drawn by some was the GAA logo was a " feck you badge".
I never compared the GAA logo and the Poppy . Your totally missing the point

is the FAI , IRFU, RFU, English FA, English Premier league, American NFL, American NBA logos all 'feck you ' badges  or taken by 'some' as so ..?
::)

of course not FFS !!
::)

Too some the English FA badge is. As are the others listed . It all depends on the context and the motivation of the person wearing it .  Wearing a Rugby jersey to a FAI event is a bit of a feck you to the FAI from my point of view.

I know a guy who likes to ware a Munster tie as a feck you badge to his Leinster fan boss .

are you drunk?, thats not even remotely the same and as per usual this line of thought makes no sense (or point) whatsoever !

Well you do know everything so I won't be disagreeing with you.

Agree with your general sentiment Zap.Many of the fallen Irishmen from the great war went off to fight for the empire with lies ringing in their ears.Many believed that going to fight Britain's war was their best chance of acheiving home rule,that on their glorious return this would be their reward.It had never been mentioned to them that on their return there was every chance that they would be getting their front door kicked in by the black and tans - the same troops that they had been fighting beside a year previously.The only reason that so many Irishmen had gone to fight was that they had been sold a pack of lies.While I agree that these Irishmen should be remembered ,I don't necessarily feel that the best way to remember them is by lumping them together with the memory of the same b******s that they would have been in conflict with had they made it home.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 01:17:43 PM
The fact that the poppy issue comes up every year and raises emotion in the Irish is an example.
To put it as priority topic of discussion on the main political show on Irish TV is proof.

Apart from the efforts of one contributor, the discussion last night was about the appropriateness of remembering WW1 dead.   The host (presumably the one who selected the topic of discussion) was pitching the discussion around the justness/heroic aspects of WW1 in particular.  There was little to suggest the fact that the Brits were involved had much bearing one way or the other.  I don't see that as poof that the Brits have a hold on anyone.  Most of Europe was involved in the war too.

As for the poppy it seems to be those that are opposed to it that have a hang-up about it's British origins.  (I'm talking in a free state context).  The few I ever met were wearing it due to lost relatives and hadn't really thought about the British connection.

I can understand peoples objections but it is plain wrong to paint remembrance ceremonies and poppies as merely being in the hold of the Brits.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 01:17:43 PM
The Irish people have no business honouring the dead of British wars and the war itself. Many of the Irish people that died should be remembered as victims of British wars. Many of them were mercanaries forced to join the war due to lies and corruption of political leaders in Ireland and Britan. None were heros. Individual acts of heroism were carried out i'm sure but the fallen Irish were victims not heros. Others joined the war due to misrepresentation of the cause. History should reflect on these leaders for what they were. Remembering the dead and the war should reflect what the war was.

We are surrounded by Brits who are trying to guilt us into a false memory of the truth. We are falling for it hook line and sinker.

They can skick their poppy up their arse.

There were many reasons/motivations for the war and people joining.  That's a reasonable discussion but one can take an opposing view for their own reasons, not because the Brits have a hold no their mindset.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 06, 2009, 01:17:43 PM
They can skick their poppy up their arse.

They can, and they can also wear it!

/Jim.

I see a poppy wreath has been laid at Moygannon bridge. Don't know if it was the local Sinn Fein cumman getting in before the official ceremony as usual or the peelers themselves who laid the wreath, but I find it strange that anyone should lay a poppy wreath in memory of the victims of an RTA.
They`ll be leaving poppy wreaths at Fords Cross next.

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 06, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
I see a poppy wreath has been laid at Moygannon bridge. Don't know if it was the local Sinn Fein cumman getting in before the official ceremony as usual or the peelers themselves who laid the wreath, but I find it strange that anyone should lay a poppy wreath in memory of the victims of an RTA.
They`ll be leaving poppy wreaths at Fords Cross next.

RTA?

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:42:43 PM

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 06, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
I see a poppy wreath has been laid at Moygannon bridge. Don't know if it was the local Sinn Fein cumman getting in before the official ceremony as usual or the peelers themselves who laid the wreath, but I find it strange that anyone should lay a poppy wreath in memory of the victims of an RTA.
They`ll be leaving poppy wreaths at Fords Cross next.

RTA?

its another badge you can wear to try and pee off someone !

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 06, 2009, 01:46:24 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:42:43 PM

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 06, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
I see a poppy wreath has been laid at Moygannon bridge. Don't know if it was the local Sinn Fein cumman getting in before the official ceremony as usual or the peelers themselves who laid the wreath, but I find it strange that anyone should lay a poppy wreath in memory of the victims of an RTA.
They`ll be leaving poppy wreaths at Fords Cross next.

RTA?

its another badge you can wear to try and pee off someone !

Wow a other exceptionally helpful and insightful post from your self.   ::) ::)

Can any one expand the acronym or give a link?

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:49:24 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 06, 2009, 01:46:24 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:42:43 PM

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 06, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
I see a poppy wreath has been laid at Moygannon bridge. Don't know if it was the local Sinn Fein cumman getting in before the official ceremony as usual or the peelers themselves who laid the wreath, but I find it strange that anyone should lay a poppy wreath in memory of the victims of an RTA.
They`ll be leaving poppy wreaths at Fords Cross next.

RTA?

its another badge you can wear to try and pee off someone !

Wow a other exceptionally helpful and insightful post from your self.   ::) ::)

Can any one expand the acronym or give a link?

ditto !
superb
pudsy ryan is alive and well !
:D

Easter lily sale decision puts student union in line of fire

By Barry McCaffrey
06/11/09
A row has erupted at the University of Ulster in Coleraine after the student union voted to allow the Easter lily to be sold on its premises in addition to the poppy. The motion was passed on Tuesday with an amendment that any profit from lily sales should be donated to charities working with victims of the Troubles. However, student union leaders were told later that any attempt to sell Easter lilies on campus could result in disgruntled employees suing the union. Union president Adrian Kelly defended the Easter lily decision. "The motion was put forward to try and give equal respect to the poppy and the Easter lily," he said. "It was passed after an amendment was agreed that any profits should not go to any political party but instead should go to charities working with victims of the Troubles. "However, we were then informed by the Equality Commission that any attempt to sell the Easter lily on our property could potentially damage harmonious working relations among staff and could leave us open to being sued." Mr Kelly said the issue would be brought back to the students' governing body to decide whether a ban on the lily would be reintroduced. "A lot of people will be disappointed because they felt that the decision to donate any profits to charity was a fitting compromise," he said. "The issue will now go back to the students' union and we will just have to see what happens next."

Ulster Unionist assembly member David McClarty described the decision to let the Easter lily be sold in the student union as "deeply disappointing". "It is regrettable that this unfortunate issue has raised its head once again," he said. "I believed that in recent years there had been more recognition of the sacrifice made by people from all sections of the community through the wearing of the poppy. "There can be no equating the poppy, which is an internationally recognised symbol of peace, with the Easter lily. "It's entirely unfortunate that people have tried to use a place of learning to promote what is clearly a political message."

Sinn Fein councillor Billy Leonard said any attempt to ban the lily from the student union set a "dangerous benchmark" for community relations. "I find this outcome amazing in that it goes to the fundamental of parity of esteem and hence how communities in a divided society accept each other, their histories and emblems that mark parts of those histories," he said.

Quote from: Gnevin on November 06, 2009, 01:42:43 PM

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 06, 2009, 01:35:33 PM
I see a poppy wreath has been laid at Moygannon bridge. Don't know if it was the local Sinn Fein cumman getting in before the official ceremony as usual or the peelers themselves who laid the wreath, but I find it strange that anyone should lay a poppy wreath in memory of the victims of an RTA.
They`ll be leaving poppy wreaths at Fords Cross next.

RTA?

Road Traffic Accident.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2009, 01:35:12 PM
Apart from the efforts of one contributor, the discussion last night was about the appropriateness of remembering WW1 dead.   The host (presumably the one who selected the topic of discussion) was pitching the discussion around the justness/heroic aspects of WW1 in particular.  There was little to suggest the fact that the Brits were involved had much bearing one way or the other.  I don't see that as poof that the Brits have a hold on anyone.  Most of Europe was involved in the war too.

It is only in the spot light as there are some who want to keep up with the Jones. The Brits have some how become a comparison at set a standard for many when it comes to remembering the dead of WW1.

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2009, 01:35:12 PM
As for the poppy it seems to be those that are opposed to it that have a hang-up about it's British origins.  (I'm talking in a free state context).  The few I ever met were wearing it due to lost relatives and hadn't really thought about the British connection.

I can understand peoples objections but it is plain wrong to paint remembrance ceremonies and poppies as merely being in the hold of the Brits.

The few you have met are misguided about the Poppy if they believe it is anything other than a British symbol. The British own the Poppy Symbol. It is as much British as the UJ. It is a British propaganda tool. 

Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on November 06, 2009, 01:35:12 PM
There were many reasons/motivations for the war and people joining.  That's a reasonable discussion but one can take an opposing view for their own reasons, not because the Brits have a hold no their mindset.

Not with the benefit of hindsight and an honest reflection on the part of Irishmen at the time.

All Black wearing a poppy, as are wales

Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2009, 01:34:23 PM

Quote from: Tonto on November 01, 2009, 11:32:46 AM
You're older than I thought!!  But Switzerland is a very different case to Eire in WWII:
1.  Harsh landscape makes invasion difficult.
2.  No strategic importance made it unnecessary.
3.  Many Swiss are 'ethnically' German.
4.  Switzerland and Germany had good relations.

However:
1.  Eire was weak militarily (tiny navy would have made invasion impossible to repulse from an island nation and no air force).
2.  Great strategic importance.  Invading Eire would have put the Germans onto the same piece of land as the British in NI and also effectively have surrounded Britain on one side.

Anyway, to persevere with my one-man celebration of pedantry, I'm surprised that your meticulousness in referring to countries by their official names in their official languages collapses after the sum total of only one of the selection of countries, nations and states you mention. I can understand your reluctance to tackle the unwieldiness of a phrase like "Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft/Confédération Suisse/Confederazione Svizzera/Confederaziun Svizzer/Confoederatio Helvetica and Deutschland had good relations" but why go out of your way to change languages just to state the name of Ireland?

Ah I do love some nice pedantry :)

Can't speak for Tonto but there are a few points:

1 - 'Ireland' can be ambiguous as it refers to an island and to a state - my guess is Tonto would have used "Republic of Ireland" to refer to the state post-1948 (and "Irish Free State" pre-1937)

2 - The 1937 constitution says, in English, "we the people of Éire...".

3 - Tonto may not refer to other countries by their names in their official languages, but then again he probably isn't expected to refer to (for example) the French prime minister as the "Premier ministre" or the French national assembly as the "Assemblée nationale" either :)

Quote from: MW on November 07, 2009, 05:49:00 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 01, 2009, 01:34:23 PM

Quote from: Tonto on November 01, 2009, 11:32:46 AM
You're older than I thought!!  But Switzerland is a very different case to Eire in WWII:
1.  Harsh landscape makes invasion difficult.
2.  No strategic importance made it unnecessary.
3.  Many Swiss are 'ethnically' German.
4.  Switzerland and Germany had good relations.

However:
1.  Eire was weak militarily (tiny navy would have made invasion impossible to repulse from an island nation and no air force).
2.  Great strategic importance.  Invading Eire would have put the Germans onto the same piece of land as the British in NI and also effectively have surrounded Britain on one side.

Anyway, to persevere with my one-man celebration of pedantry, I'm surprised that your meticulousness in referring to countries by their official names in their official languages collapses after the sum total of only one of the selection of countries, nations and states you mention. I can understand your reluctance to tackle the unwieldiness of a phrase like "Schweizerische Eidgenossenschaft/Confédération Suisse/Confederazione Svizzera/Confederaziun Svizzer/Confoederatio Helvetica and Deutschland had good relations" but why go out of your way to change languages just to state the name of Ireland?

Ah I do love some nice pedantry :)

Can't speak for Tonto but there are a few points:

1 - 'Ireland' can be ambiguous as it refers to an island and to a state - my guess is Tonto would have used "Republic of Ireland" to refer to the state post-1948 (and "Irish Free State" pre-1937)

Why would he want to describe the state  ;)

Liverpool and Man Utd getting a bit of stick for being the only two EPL teams not to wear it on their shirts this weekend

Hibs did today, will Celtic aswell?

Quote from: Gnevin on November 07, 2009, 05:23:36 PM
All Black wearing a poppy, as are wales

The commemoration at the rugby showed well why most nationalists here have no affinity wth the Poppy. They presented some Brit soldiers and went on about their 'work' in Northern Ireland on foot patrol blah blah... little to be boasting about with their record here and can see no link with that and the men who died in two world wars. So they can shove their poppy...

Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Celtic have a poppy badge version on there jersey too. During the minute slience a fair few Celtic fans sang through it. 
Its sunny in Scotlan wtf :o

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

I doubt my uncle is wearing a poppy and he's married over there for around 30something years.

I dont think all the celtic players were wearing poppies...does anyone know were they given the option to go poppyless?

all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

Didnt see one on Samaras shirt...think they were a few more?

Roy Keane doesnt sport one anyway as SKY only showed his face and neck in an interview yesterday. ;)

What was that shite last year, talk of a green poppy. Sure we could have a military remembrance day in Easter, for all our soldiers, who gave their lives wherever they may be, The Rising, WWI, WWII, Lebanon, (even the American Civil War) and elsewhere.

Our soldiers fought and died for freedom and self determination (or maybe just out of desperation for a job), from both Fascism and Imperialism. So now we have that choice,  I think a commemeration that reflects us and our soldiers would be more appropriate. That is if we choose to even have a commemoration at all.

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

I only caught the end of the Celtic match - McManus definitely didn't have one on and I'd be fairly sure McGeady didn't either.

Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2009, 03:35:26 PM
Roy Keane doesnt sport one anyway as SKY only showed his face and neck in an interview yesterday. ;)

Keane wouldnt give two shites what they showed of him, the one thing i will say for him is that if they asked him why he wasnt wearing one he would most definitely tell them why he wsnt wearing one and fair play to him for that.

Quote from: stew on November 08, 2009, 06:25:42 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on November 08, 2009, 03:35:26 PM
Roy Keane doesnt sport one anyway as SKY only showed his face and neck in an interview yesterday. ;)

Keane wouldnt give two shites what they showed of him, the one thing i will say for him is that if they asked him why he wasnt wearing one he would most definitely tell them why he wsnt wearing one and fair play to him for that.

Any interview I seen of him lately all he says is 'yes' 'no' 'what do you think?'  I doubt he'd say anything about the poppy.

Quote from: tyrone86 on November 08, 2009, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

I only caught the end of the Celtic match - McManus definitely didn't have one on and I'd be fairly sure McGeady didn't either.

Yeah thats what i thought, along with Samaras. Anyone know did the players have their own choice on this?

Quote from: tyrone86 on November 08, 2009, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

I only caught the end of the Celtic match - McManus definitely didn't have one on and I'd be fairly sure McGeady didn't either.

There were definetely some Celtic players with it and some not. United didn't today. Certainly it seems to be in vogue.

Had to laugh at Don King last night with his American, Russian and German flags and a big poppy on him. Shameless!  :D

Quote from: stiffler on November 08, 2009, 06:57:55 PM

Quote from: tyrone86 on November 08, 2009, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

I only caught the end of the Celtic match - McManus definitely didn't have one on and I'd be fairly sure McGeady didn't either.

Yeah thats what i thought, along with Samaras. Anyone know did the players have their own choice on this?

Not that it should  be of any consequence to anybody but themselves (and certainly not to me) but both McGeady and Samaras did.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Its the way of it on TV but I was dandering about the town today and I reckon about 10-15% had a poppy on. At work its higher, maybe 25-30% I would say have one on.  Have to say I'm glad its not the majority wearing one or I would feel a bit uncomfortable.

Quote from: Olaf on November 08, 2009, 07:34:35 PM

Quote from: stiffler on November 08, 2009, 06:57:55 PM

Quote from: tyrone86 on November 08, 2009, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

I only caught the end of the Celtic match - McManus definitely didn't have one on and I'd be fairly sure McGeady didn't either.

Yeah thats what i thought, along with Samaras. Anyone know did the players have their own choice on this?

Not that it should  be of any consequence to anybody but themselves (and certainly not to me) but both McGeady and Samaras did.

The photo at the bottom of this link should clear things up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1226121/Falkirk-3-Celtic-3-SPL-basement-club-stun-Tony-Mowbrays-giants.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1226121/Falkirk-3-Celtic-3-SPL-basement-club-stun-Tony-Mowbrays-giants.html)

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

def is going that way  !

there seems to be a huge push to now all of a sudden go into overdrive to 'remember'  - as there were no poppies on soccer/sports team jerseys up until the last year or so.
no team wore poppies as it was not as big a deal in years before - usually some old laying of a wreath at a cenotaph attended by soldiers and ex-servicemen and that was it - the general public didnt really get bothered, maybe buy a poppy but no one wore them - at least in the 70's or 80's when I lived in england!

maybe its the recent guilt of trying to whip up a frenzy to support their soldiers and thus paper over the elephant in the room that is that no one wants the british army to be in iraq/afghanistan/north of Ireland etc

it has been given a huge push and this is now a 'tradition' that really didnt exist in practice before- apart from in the north of Ireland where it was used as a badge of unionism/loyalism and another excuse to parade around towns/nationalist areas to annoy the natives !

About 10:30am yesterday I saw about 30 people gathering on the bottom of the Newtownards Road, preparing themselves to march into the city for the remembrance service.

About half of them were drinking beer. Very solemn indeed.

to be honest i dont really have any ill feelings towards the whole remberence/poopy sunday. think people who give there lives for their country, no matter contry it is should be remebered.

however if i had one gripe with it, it would be that it is very much seen as a british instiution. what about all the irish men who were sent to the slaughter. should we not have some sort of remberence for them? the poppy doesnt exactly cover it.

Quote from: Rav67 on November 08, 2009, 07:46:11 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Its the way of it on TV but I was dandering about the town today and I reckon about 10-15% had a poppy on. At work its higher, maybe 25-30% I would say have one on.  Have to say I'm glad its not the majority wearing one or I would feel a bit uncomfortable.

In our office here in Birmingham (currently about 50 people) ive seen 2 poppys so far, and its never been mentioned or talked about.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Yep, it's called 'Poppy Fascism', which is bloody ironic when you think about WWII  :-\

Quote from: Gnevin on October 28, 2009, 11:22:13 AMIt was generally the commonwealth nations that adopted the poppy. Canada, Australia et al

In fact the Canadian have the poppy on the quarter from 2008.

since 2004 actually

(http://media.thestar.topscms.com/images/1c/3f/b60d98a34537af16b076696c03f3.jpeg)

Quote from: Rav67 on November 08, 2009, 07:46:11 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Its the way of it on TV but I was dandering about the town today and I reckon about 10-15% had a poppy on. At work its higher, maybe 25-30% I would say have one on.  Have to say I'm glad its not the majority wearing one or I would feel a bit uncomfortable.

I was in London at the weekend and was surprised to see very little people wearing Poppys. In fact, the majority were workers, ie people 'asked' to wear them for work.

Quote from: ziggysego on November 09, 2009, 05:23:33 PM
I was in London at the weekend and was surprised to see very little people wearing Poppys.

:D

Quote from: Hardy on November 09, 2009, 05:49:53 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on November 09, 2009, 05:23:33 PM
I was in London at the weekend and was surprised to see very little people wearing Poppys.

:D

feck off :D

I know you have your own perspective on it Zig.

Quote from: ziggysego on November 09, 2009, 05:23:33 PM

Quote from: Rav67 on November 08, 2009, 07:46:11 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Its the way of it on TV but I was dandering about the town today and I reckon about 10-15% had a poppy on. At work its higher, maybe 25-30% I would say have one on.  Have to say I'm glad its not the majority wearing one or I would feel a bit uncomfortable.

I was in London at the weekend and was surprised to see very little people wearing Poppys. In fact, the majority were workers, ie people 'asked' to wear them for work.

Busy weekend asking all those people if their work made them wear a poppy. I'm assuming that's what you did, otherwise how would you know?

Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 09, 2009, 08:26:33 AM

Quote from: Olaf on November 08, 2009, 07:34:35 PM

Quote from: stiffler on November 08, 2009, 06:57:55 PM

Quote from: tyrone86 on November 08, 2009, 04:50:40 PM

Quote from: maldini on November 08, 2009, 03:10:15 PM
all celtic players were wearing poppies, which ones do u think weren't?

man united and liverpool arent having poppies on their shirts this weekend i read during the week

I only caught the end of the Celtic match - McManus definitely didn't have one on and I'd be fairly sure McGeady didn't either.

Yeah thats what i thought, along with Samaras. Anyone know did the players have their own choice on this?

Not that it should  be of any consequence to anybody but themselves (and certainly not to me) but both McGeady and Samaras did.

The photo at the bottom of this link should clear things up.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1226121/Falkirk-3-Celtic-3-SPL-basement-club-stun-Tony-Mowbrays-giants.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1226121/Falkirk-3-Celtic-3-SPL-basement-club-stun-Tony-Mowbrays-giants.html)

Could possibly have been that some players changed tops at half time to a fresh non-poppied jersey

Quote from: High Wide and Handsome on November 09, 2009, 08:58:44 AM
. what about all the irish men who were sent to the slaughter. should we not have some sort of remberence for them?

Any Irish who were in WW1 or indeed WW2 were volunteers .
Other than a list of names as a historical fact why should we remember them,apart from the Official memorial service for "all Irishmen who died in wars" ...sometime in July isnt it?

The National Day of Commemoration - held on the Sunday closest to July 11th

Was in Tescos this am in knocknagonney, Belfast and could not believe how many were still wearing them.

Quote from: gorm agus bui on November 10, 2009, 10:49:19 AM
Was in Tescos this am in knocknagonney, Belfast and could not believe how many were still wearing them.

Do people not wear them at least until the 11th anyway?

tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

They go on sale here 2 weeks beforehand

Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 09, 2009, 05:53:13 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on November 09, 2009, 05:23:33 PM

Quote from: Rav67 on November 08, 2009, 07:46:11 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on November 08, 2009, 09:28:38 AM
Is there some sort of new cult of the poppy going on in the uk, fail to wear one and you'll be an outcast.

Its the way of it on TV but I was dandering about the town today and I reckon about 10-15% had a poppy on. At work its higher, maybe 25-30% I would say have one on.  Have to say I'm glad its not the majority wearing one or I would feel a bit uncomfortable.

I was in London at the weekend and was surprised to see very little people wearing Poppys. In fact, the majority were workers, ie people 'asked' to wear them for work.

Busy weekend asking all those people if their work made them wear a poppy. I'm assuming that's what you did, otherwise how would you know?

They were in their places of work when I spotted them. Comedy venues, shops, airport, etc..

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

You're kidding....... aren't you?  :-\

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

Quote from: ziggysego on November 10, 2009, 04:24:51 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

You're kidding....... aren't you?  :-\

I kid you not ... Germans basically sued for peace in early October and after a load of too-ing and fro-ing, especially in relation to the position of the German monarchy, the Armistice was signed at 5am on Nov 11 .... in the six hours up to 11am the fighting went on, all because 11/11 at 11am looked good on official documents

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

FYI, An estimated 13,000 soldiers died on the last day of the war, how many of them would have lived had the guns fallen silent at 5am?

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

It was agreed four years too late in my opinion.
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:47:56 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

FYI, An estimated 13,000 soldiers died on the last day of the war, how many of them would have lived had the guns fallen silent at 5am?

I see you can read the same Wiki article I did , if incorrectly "Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war" . 5am on November 11th is a lot different to too " much earlier that Nov 11 1918"

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

It was agreed four years too late in my opinion.
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

Don't most history books already hold this believe?

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:58:46 PM

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

It was agreed four years too late in my opinion.
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

Don't most history books already hold this believe?

Do you mean belief?

I cant imagine the history books in britain and germany holding this belief.
If that is the case isnt this whole rememberance situation all a farce.

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 05:10:50 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:58:46 PM

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

It was agreed four years too late in my opinion.
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

Don't most history books already hold this believe?

Do you mean belief?

I cant imagine the history books in britain and germany holding this belief.
If that is the case isnt this whole rememberance situation all a farce.

Fair enough I've not read many British or any German history books.  However most documentaries I've seen on Discovery and the History channel have been of this belief. Even Churchill was of the belief that WW1 was essentially the upper classes playing toy soldiers .

I don't see how it's a farce to remember those who fought and died for what they believed at the time where legitimate reasons

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:47:56 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

FYI, An estimated 13,000 soldiers died on the last day of the war, how many of them would have lived had the guns fallen silent at 5am?

I see you can read the same Wiki article I did , if incorrectly "Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war" . 5am on November 11th is a lot different to too " much earlier that Nov 11 1918"

Actually, I didn't read that Wiki article, incorrectly or otherwise, but thanks for posting it.

According to Joseph Persico's '11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour: Armistice Day 1918': "Allied leaders found outrageous excuses to send 13,000 men to their deaths against a defeated enemy."

Think I'd prefer to take the word of a noted US historian rather than Wikipedia, but then again I could have quoted him incorrectly

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:47:56 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

FYI, An estimated 13,000 soldiers died on the last day of the war, how many of them would have lived had the guns fallen silent at 5am?

I see you can read the same Wiki article I did , if incorrectly "Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war" . 5am on November 11th is a lot different to too " much earlier that Nov 11 1918"

Actually, I didn't read that Wiki article, incorrectly or otherwise, but thanks for posting it.

According to Joseph Persico's '11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour: Armistice Day 1918': "Allied leaders found outrageous excuses to send 13,000 men to their deaths against a defeated enemy."

Think I'd prefer to take the word of a noted US historian rather than Wikipedia, but then again I could have quoted him incorrectly

Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war.[4]

4=Persico, Joseph E (2004). Eleventh month, eleventh day, eleventh hour. Random House. ISBN 9780099445395.

Strange as your quote also seems to be attributed to Persico.

I would have been a big fan of history in school and would have read my fair share of history books in relation to the era from 1800 up to the start of the cold war.

I wouldnt be an expert but from my recollection a lot of the books were justifying it in some way from both sides.
I think in recent years people are beginning to question its justification and are saying what was the point.

Farce may be a bit harsh of a word but my point is if people are beginning to question to justify the first world war then the whole emotional rollercoaster of remberance maybe should be watered down.
Remember yes but dont just remember for the sake of it.
I liked the idea what happened in dublin on sunday.Remembering those who fell in a prayer service with our president leading the prayers.
It was dignified and it remebered all the dead and prayer and reflection was the main thought.

Compared to the last three weeks which in my eyes seemed to be a celebration more than a rememberance.
Also i think it was particularly hijacked this year to justify iraq and afghanistan.

Why must we justify these campaigns by projecting the blood and suffering of those in the past?

Michael Ballack wearing a poppy wats going on there then ???

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 05:41:21 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:47:56 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

FYI, An estimated 13,000 soldiers died on the last day of the war, how many of them would have lived had the guns fallen silent at 5am?

I see you can read the same Wiki article I did , if incorrectly "Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war" . 5am on November 11th is a lot different to too " much earlier that Nov 11 1918"

Actually, I didn't read that Wiki article, incorrectly or otherwise, but thanks for posting it.

According to Joseph Persico's '11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour: Armistice Day 1918': "Allied leaders found outrageous excuses to send 13,000 men to their deaths against a defeated enemy."

Think I'd prefer to take the word of a noted US historian rather than Wikipedia, but then again I could have quoted him incorrectly

Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war.[4]

4=Persico, Joseph E (2004). Eleventh month, eleventh day, eleventh hour. Random House. ISBN 9780099445395.

Strange as your quote also seems to be attributed to Persico.

So, he's a schizophrenic ... what about German casualties, or don't they count? 

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 06:12:15 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 05:41:21 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 05:25:53 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:57:22 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:47:56 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on November 10, 2009, 04:29:05 PM

Quote from: red hander on November 10, 2009, 04:23:41 PM

Quote from: Hoof Hearted on November 10, 2009, 10:59:38 AM
tomorrow, 11/11, is the actual date. It's 3 weeks this Thursday since i spotted the 1st one on TV. They will soon have them up on July 13th.

Yep... the Germans actually agreed to the Armistice much earlier that Nov 11 1918 but because of a pathetic decision by the allies to have a symmetircal time and date for the official end of the war (the 11th hour of the 11th month and all that ballix) countless soldiers on both sides continued to be killed right up to 11am ... how pathetic is that.

Bollox

"The Armistice was agreed at 5 AM on 11 November, to come into effect at 11 AM Paris time (that is 10 AM GMT), for which reason the occasion is sometimes referred to as "the eleventh (hour) of the eleventh (day) of the eleventh (month)". It was the result of a hurried and desperate process."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armistice_with_Germany_%28Compi%C3%A8gne%29

FYI, An estimated 13,000 soldiers died on the last day of the war, how many of them would have lived had the guns fallen silent at 5am?

I see you can read the same Wiki article I did , if incorrectly "Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war" . 5am on November 11th is a lot different to too " much earlier that Nov 11 1918"

Actually, I didn't read that Wiki article, incorrectly or otherwise, but thanks for posting it.

According to Joseph Persico's '11th Month, 11th Day, 11th Hour: Armistice Day 1918': "Allied leaders found outrageous excuses to send 13,000 men to their deaths against a defeated enemy."

Think I'd prefer to take the word of a noted US historian rather than Wikipedia, but then again I could have quoted him incorrectly

Consequently there were 10,944 casualties of which 2,738 men died on the last day of the war.[4]

4=Persico, Joseph E (2004). Eleventh month, eleventh day, eleventh hour. Random House. ISBN 9780099445395.

Strange as your quote also seems to be attributed to Persico.

So, he's a schizophrenic ... what about German casualties, or don't they count?

I think the quote you gave is a misquote which confuses deaths and casualties

http://www.amazon.com/Eleventh-Month-Day-Hour-Armistice/dp/0375760458/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpi_3

Seems to support the 2,738 German and British deaths

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW24N1G0WIk&feature=topvideos

what does yous make of that. not giving any opinion on the matter just think would be interesting to discuss

 >:(

Folks, ffs stop citing Wikipedia as your reference.  It is widely accepted in the academic world as an unreliable source of information.  By all means read it, then...look for the references cited on the subject and click on those links to try to confirm with more substantial PROOF.

The very fact that any Joe Soap can go in and edit an article says it all.

If any of you are at university and are presenting an article from Wikipedia as a reference, I would fail you immediately no matter how good your work.

Rememberance Day today in Oz.  They are sticking to the original script, ie, commemorating all the dead of both world wars, but it always takes a dumbfcuk presenter to muck things up; one clown commented that they were also remembering the soldiers who are (and I paraphrase) fighting for our (sic) freedom (sic).  FFS, Aus is a free country - it has been sucked into a war through the lies of its former PM and his war criminal cohort, shrub.

Homes under the hammer was only on for half an hour this morning, I am writing to the BBC to complain, who do they think they are, disrupting my mornings viewing because the Queen is going to mass.
In saying that I got to see Jeremy Kyle on TV3.

Quote from: Aerlik on November 11, 2009, 02:06:58 AM
>:(

Folks, ffs stop citing Wikipedia as your reference.  It is widely accepted in the academic world as an unreliable source of information.  By all means read it, then...look for the references cited on the subject and click on those links to try to confirm with more substantial PROOF.

The very fact that any Joe Soap can go in and edit an article says it all.

Incorrect, you just have to be a little more careful the edit your reading hasn't been vandalized and make sure anything you quote is referenced .

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

Quote from: Gnevin on November 11, 2009, 11:21:40 AM

Quote from: Aerlik on November 11, 2009, 02:06:58 AM
>:(

Folks, ffs stop citing Wikipedia as your reference.  It is widely accepted in the academic world as an unreliable source of information.  By all means read it, then...look for the references cited on the subject and click on those links to try to confirm with more substantial PROOF.

The very fact that any Joe Soap can go in and edit an article says it all.

Incorrect, you just have to be a little more careful the edit your reading hasn't been vandalized and make sure anything you quote is referenced .

http://news.cnet.com/Study-Wikipedia-as-accurate-as-Britannica/2100-1038_3-5997332.html

+1, it used to be laughable at the start but its come on leaps and bounds in the last few years, and a lot of the info placed on it is actually coming from academics.
The only real problem i would have with wiki, is that it automatically narrows the field to whats on the entry, whilst its nearly always correct, it leaves out so much background detail that can only be got by doing some proper research.

Anyone participate in the minutes silence this morning at 11am?

Quote from: Declan on November 11, 2009, 11:42:21 AM
Anyone participate in the minutes silence this morning at 11am?

Have to say i forgot about it but was 'shushed' by a work colleague as they were listening to big ben, so I started reciting the angelus and surprised myself how much of it i knew!

Ah the arguments nearly over for 2009. Can we please agree to disagree here so we don't have to go through this again in 2010.
For what it's worth I have only seen 1 person wearing a poppy here in Dublin, a lady wearing one last week in Liffey Valley SC. Haven't been to town for a while though.

Quote from: Canalman on November 11, 2009, 12:26:23 PM
Ah the arguments nearly over for 2009. Can we please agree to disagree here so we don't have to go through this again in 2010.
For what it's worth I have only seen 1 person wearing a poppy here in Dublin, a lady wearing one last week in Liffey Valley SC. Haven't been to town for a while though.

I seen 4 guys in suits in a very suspicious black saloon car this morning on my way to work wearing them.

We were just made to observe the two minutes silence here in work - wtf?????????

Was ragin about it!  Effectively we were being railroaded into marking something that we might not agree with. How can they do that?!?!?!

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

I have read some crap on this thread, but for its utter crassness, that (mis)characterisation of WWI takes it to a whole new level.

By "two cousins" and a "best friend", I assume you mean the British and Germans, plus the USA, as though they were the only combatants involved. Have you never wondered why the conflict was called "The Great War" or "World War One", rather than eg "The Anglo-German War" or somesuch?

In fact, the Great War involved the collision of most of the world's great empires of the time, most notably the Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German, French, Ottoman and British, plus other major countries like Italy and China, as well as a host of smaller states. Consequently, the war was fought over the whole of Europe and beyond, with the Western Front (Flanders etc) only being a part - and not always the bloodiest part at that. For example, I saw reference recently to the Soca Valley Battles/Isonzo Front between Italy and Austria. I thought I was reasonably clued up about WWI, but must confess I was only barely aware of those names. Yet it turns out that during a sequence of 12 offensives between 1915 and 1917 in what is now modern-day Slovenia, over a third of a million troops died.

Similarly, there were huge losses suffered on countless other battlefields, of which those who take only an Anglo-centric view are not even aware. Therefore to talk about WWI being some sort of family spat between some Brits and Germans, eventually settled by the intervention of the Yanks etc, is about as accurate as the Hollywood depiction of WWII as essentially amounting to "John Wayne beating up a bunch of suicidal Nips in the Pacific (Oh, and a lot of Jews died somewhere, too)"  :o

In fact, at the start of the 20th Century, the British were (typically) uninterested in events on Continental Europe, somewhere where they had no significant possessions and where they hadn't fought any major battles since helping topple Napoleon a century earlier.

Consequently, their involvement in WWI followed a complex series of events, following a crack in the Hapsburg Empire emerging at Sarajevo, which then drew in the Russians, Germans and Turks, before spilling over into France and the Low Countries. As such, Britain felt itself compelled to join in to defend two strategic interests: namely the threat to its overseas Empire posed by the newly expansionist German Empire (especially via its greatly enlarged Navy), plus Britain's formal alliance with France, whose borders were threatened by the Germans.

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

The conduct of the War by the Governments and Generals etc was undoubtedly often callous in the extreme, but that should not colour the debate as to why the War was fought, still less any analysis the differing motives of the many and various participants for getting involved.

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).

In any case, however, it is not for us, nearly 100 years later to sneer at them or detract from their motives or heroism.

Which, in fact, is what Remembrance Day and the Poppy etc should be all about.
For whatever the rights or wrongs of the various conflicts which we have all witnessed over the last century, to wear a Poppy or remain silent for two minutes once a year is NOT designed to endorse these conflicts or show any measure of support for them. Rather it is simply to remember all those people who fought and died, in the sincere hope that those of us who have come later will never be required to repeat their sacrifice.

Which is why, for example, a German footballer (Ballack) playing for an English club (Chelsea) can wear a Poppy on his shirt at the weekend, just as his Chancellor (Merkel) can today lay a wreath at the Cenotaph of a former enemy (France):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091111/ts_afp/francegermanywwihistory

Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

P.S. I would have let your post pass, as a product of simple ignorance, until I read your later assertion that:
"I would have been a big fan of history in school and would have read my fair share of history books in relation to the era from 1800 up to the start of the cold war"
Therefore, if you really have read up your history of those events, but still come to your puerile, indeed offensive, conclusions, I can only deduce you to be motivated by a combination of bitterness, prejudice and stupidity.
Perhaps the next time you open a book, you might be advised to open your mind first...

EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy?  ;)

well said Evil Genius.

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 11, 2009, 01:41:05 PM
EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy?  ;)

Yes.

And in case anyone is wondering, it is not as some kind of badge of identity or to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, still less as a "F**k You" gesture; rather it is (particularly) in memory of a good friend, plus (more generally) a number of other people.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 02:29:05 PM

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 11, 2009, 01:41:05 PM
EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy?  ;)

Yes.

And in case anyone is wondering, it is not as some kind of badge of identity or to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, still less as a "F**k You" gesture;

I don't believe you :P

Quote from: ziggysego on November 11, 2009, 02:30:24 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 02:29:05 PM

Quote from: Cúig huaire on November 11, 2009, 01:41:05 PM
EG, that is all well and good, but the question on everyones lips is are you wearing a poppy?  ;)

Yes.

And in case anyone is wondering, it is not as some kind of badge of identity or to make anyone else feel uncomfortable, still less as a "F**k You" gesture;

I don't believe you :P

Well f**k You, then!  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PM

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).


Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day.

EG you were doing so well then threw in that flowery, rose coloured guff (the bit in bold) about "poor little Belgium" and crap about Catholic countries and rubbish about Pals going off for adventure, try conscription.

Also you self righteous pompous arse, instead of Parkhead try The Falkirk Stadium.  ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PMIndeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

Even assuming that half the world does stop (doubtful), one must assume that the other half don't. I know Irish people have an inflated sense of our own importance on the world stage, but to equate us with 'half the world' . . .

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 03:25:12 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PM

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).


Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day.

EG you were doing so well then threw in that flowery, rose coloured guff (the bit in bold) about "poor little Belgium"

Let me see, now: Google "Poor Little Belgium" + "World War One" and this is the first entry:
http://www.nzhistory.net.nz/war/new-zealanders-in-belgium/fund-raising
Yep, the fate of the Belgians was a matter of concern even 12,000 miles away (they must have got a text message or something  ::))

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 03:25:12 PM
   ...and crap about Catholic countries

Really? why not read the first three paragraphs of "Atrocities" from this study, specifically the allegations of "priests being strung up and used as church bell clappers, nuns being raped, and prisoners of war being crucified":
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-EVdYq7oK_kC&pg=PA240&lpg=PA240&dq=Nuns,+rape,+WWI,+German+atrocities,+Belgium&source=bl&ots=P6505o-7UG&sig=GPYuXNVOzb-_PLNohAFLhSgLn40&hl=en&ei=2936Suj1IsnU4Qawvv2MAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4&ved=0CA8Q6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=&f=false
Whether actually true or completely false, such stories were widely believed and had a huge influence on large numbers of volunteers, with atrocities against Priests and Nuns having particular resonance in Ireland.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 03:25:12 PM
...and rubbish about Pals going off for adventure,

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/british/britain_wwone/pals_01.shtml

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 03:25:12 PM
...try conscription.

Over one million men volunteered from the UK (including Ireland) in the first five months of the War alone. Conscription was not introduced in GB until 1916. And when referring specifically to Ireland, it should be noted that Conscription was never introduced here during WWI.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 03:25:12 PM
Also you self righteous pompous arse, instead of Parkhead try The Falkirk Stadium.  ::)

Actually, I was referring to Remembrance Sunday 2008, when at their home fixture versus Motherwell, Celtic substituted a minutes "applause" for a minute's silence, since they knew it would be abused by a section of their support:
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2008/11/08/scottish-premier-league-chiefs-blasted-by-veterans-over-minute-s-applause-for-war-dead-86908-20877794/

"And if. You know. Your history..."  ::)

Quote from: deiseach on November 11, 2009, 03:51:09 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PMIndeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

Even assuming that half the world does stop (doubtful), one must assume that the other half don't. I know Irish people have an inflated sense of our own importance on the world stage, but to equate us with 'half the world' . . .

I was not "equating" Ireland with half the world, rather I was contrasting it, in the same way as I would not equate, but might contrast eg the posters on this site with one dim individual who seems incapable of comprehending even simple concepts...

P.S. As regards observance of Remembrance Day generally, you may substitute whatever fraction of the world you like for my "half", since I was exagerrating for effect, but before you do, you might want to read the following:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/8354016.stm
http://www.nationalpost.com/story.html?id=2209988
http://www.theage.com.au/national/tributes-for-nations-fallen-20091111-i9yq.html
http://cbs13.com/national/obama.veterans.day.2.1305174.html

And what is wrong with a minutes applause? Stinks of Poppy fasicism to me.

Your obviously passionate about the slaughter that was WW1, but your flowering up the "great" war with examples of this and that (seriously EG I don't have the time you seem to, to start going through your examples), I could also give examples of whole communities destroyed by WW1, also ask yourself the question, why was conscription brought in in Britian, Canada, Australia etc... would it have been that they had run out of people feeling sorry for Belgium or Pals going off together.
This great sacrifice that people keep harping on about re: Irish volunteers in WW1 is revisionism at its worst, the majority of these men went to the "front" for the reason that if they did Home Rule maybe granted or "Rome Rule" denied - infact rather then selfless acts these men made the ultimate sacrifice for all the wrong reasons.
Poor souls lied to by better educated men. Reminds me of the average US jarhead, being told that they are going to Iraq or Afganstan to protect "freedom".

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PM

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

I have read some crap on this thread, but for its utter crassness, that (mis)characterisation of WWI takes it to a whole new level.

By "two cousins" and a "best friend", I assume you mean the British and Germans, plus the USA, as though they were the only combatants involved. Have you never wondered why the conflict was called "The Great War" or "World War One", rather than eg "The Anglo-German War" or somesuch?

In fact, the Great War involved the collision of most of the world's great empires of the time, most notably the Austro-Hungarian, Russian, German, French, Ottoman and British, plus other major countries like Italy and China, as well as a host of smaller states. Consequently, the war was fought over the whole of Europe and beyond, with the Western Front (Flanders etc) only being a part - and not always the bloodiest part at that. For example, I saw reference recently to the Soca Valley Battles/Isonzo Front between Italy and Austria. I thought I was reasonably clued up about WWI, but must confess I was only barely aware of those names. Yet it turns out that during a sequence of 12 offensives between 1915 and 1917 in what is now modern-day Slovenia, over a third of a million troops died.

Similarly, there were huge losses suffered on countless other battlefields, of which those who take only an Anglo-centric view are not even aware. Therefore to talk about WWI being some sort of family spat between some Brits and Germans, eventually settled by the intervention of the Yanks etc, is about as accurate as the Hollywood depiction of WWII as essentially amounting to "John Wayne beating up a bunch of suicidal Nips in the Pacific (Oh, and a lot of Jews died somewhere, too)"  :o

In fact, at the start of the 20th Century, the British were (typically) uninterested in events on Continental Europe, somewhere where they had no significant possessions and where they hadn't fought any major battles since helping topple Napoleon a century earlier.

Consequently, their involvement in WWI followed a complex series of events, following a crack in the Hapsburg Empire emerging at Sarajevo, which then drew in the Russians, Germans and Turks, before spilling over into France and the Low Countries. As such, Britain felt itself compelled to join in to defend two strategic interests: namely the threat to its overseas Empire posed by the newly expansionist German Empire (especially via its greatly enlarged Navy), plus Britain's formal alliance with France, whose borders were threatened by the Germans.

There is nothing great about any war and the only reason it is sometimes described as the Great War as you call it is that the history writers and policy makers as well as the propaganda machines in britain tend to call it that to somehow justify the senseless killing it and its allies endorsed to eventually come out victourious.
Remember history is written by the winners.

Also it is widely accepted that World War one was fought with the two major players being Britain and Germany with the US coming to Britains aid when it looked on the verge of being overrun in Europe.
Your attempt to include every nation to justify a World War and that britain and germany were somehow dragged into the war is laughable.
Most of these nations jumped on the bandwagon because of historical or economic ties to either side.

The assaination in Sarojevo was only the catalyst for such a conflict.
Tensions had been mounting long before that what happened in Sarojevo only lit the fire.

The only reason Britain had less interest on Continental Europe at that time than it had 150 years previous was because Europe wasnt liable to bow as easy to the king and empire than the natives in India,Palestine and Africa.

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
The first world war will be seen in history books long after we depart as a senseless unnecessary war fought by two administrations who had little or no respect for their nations.

The conduct of the War by the Governments and Generals etc was undoubtedly often callous in the extreme, but that should not colour the debate as to why the War was fought, still less any analysis the differing motives of the many and various participants for getting involved.

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
Standing up in the name of small nations my arse.

Nor should it distort or betray the motives of individual soldiers and sailors etc who joined up. In the case of the UK (including Ireland), it is undeniable that the fate of "poor little Belgium" was key for many volunteers, as stories of German atrocities, both genuine and propagandised, began to gain widespread currency.

As for those hundreds of thousands of Irishmen and women who were involved, their motives were many and varied. some simply joined up to "serve King and Country", others (Ulster Volunteers/Carson and Irish Volunteers/Redmond) to further their respective cause in the Home Rule question. Still more saw it as noble to stick up for little nations who were being invaded by ("uncivilised") Empires, or even out of religious conviction i.e. "Catholic countries" like France and Belgium being threatened by those "vicious Huns" etc. Still more joined up because they needed the money, or because their Pals were enlisting, or even out of a sense of adventure (though these latter were soon to be grievously disabused when they learned what their "adventure" really involved).

Now you really are losing it.The defence of the small countries jargon again used by the policy makers on the british side to justify to go to war and to continue the barbarity on both sides on the Western Front.
Most men who joined did so out of adventure at the start and it was generally excepted and publicised in britain at the time that the boys would be returning home in a year victorous.

When this didnt materialise it was out of a sense of duty and defence and the propganda at the time stating that the germans would take over the empire if the british people didnt join up.

Also the small matter of conscription we must not forget.

On the Irish side the vast majority joined as you correctly stated for the false promise of Home Rule.Not out of some religous crusade you moron.


In any case, however, it is not for us, nearly 100 years later to sneer at them or detract from their motives or heroism.

I agree.Heroism that however was fuelled by the propaganda of two administrations who didnt respect or relate to their people and who couldnt have even dreamed of the barbarity that took place in both there names.

Which, in fact, is what Remembrance Day and the Poppy etc should be all about.
For whatever the rights or wrongs of the various conflicts which we have all witnessed over the last century, to wear a Poppy or remain silent for two minutes once a year is NOT designed to endorse these conflicts or show any measure of support for them. Rather it is simply to remember all those people who fought and died, in the sincere hope that those of us who have come later will never be required to repeat their sacrifice.

I have no problem with remembrance day and minutes silence and i never stated i did.
My problem is the kind of justification and celebration for up on three weeks of a war that should never have happened and also the justification of current absolutely senseless conflicts

Which is why, for example, a German footballer (Ballack) playing for an English club (Chelsea) can wear a Poppy on his shirt at the weekend, just as his Chancellor (Merkel) can today lay a wreath at the Cenotaph of a former enemy (France):
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20091111/ts_afp/francegermanywwihistory

What would have been easier for Ballack to do? (remember he is in the public spotlight)
Refuse to wear the poppy and incur the wrath of the Sun,Sky News,The BBC as well as the british public booing him untill the end of his career or simply shutting and putting up with it so he could have an easier life without the sleaze bag brit tabloids slating him for all eternity.

Indeed, as half the World pauses today to remember those who died, it sometimes seems that it is only in Ireland (and the environs of Parkhead?) where bitter, ignorant and prejudiced individuals fail utterly to recognise or admit the significance of the day. Then again, following the events of 8th November 1987 closer to home, some of us, sadly, already knew that...

Half the World you say riight i cant imagine the whole population of China,USA or the population of the continent of Africa running round wearing poppies today but you keep telling yourself that.
You have to remember the virtually now defunct british Empire isnt the centre of the universe anymore.

As already stated it was Falkirk stadium and from listening to it i would say that maybe 5-10% of the travelling fans were involved in this behaviour so dont tar us all you plike.

Why did you have to bring enniskillen into it?
More justification maybe for some false sense of righteous.
Are all irish people bitter ignorant and prejudiced (by the way these words are rich coming from you) or is it just the irish people in northern ireland who were on the receiving end of the brutality of the british army which the poppy represents in their eyes?

P.S. I would have let your post pass, as a product of simple ignorance, until I read your later assertion that:
"I would have been a big fan of history in school and would have read my fair share of history books in relation to the era from 1800 up to the start of the cold war"
Therefore, if you really have read up your history of those events, but still come to your puerile, indeed offensive, conclusions, I can only deduce you to be motivated by a combination of bitterness, prejudice and stupidity.
Perhaps the next time you open a book, you might be advised to open your mind first...

Bitter prejudice and stupidity (again rich coming from you although i wouldnt be the sharpest tool in the box at times).
My motivation for my earlier rant was the unnecessary justification of a stupid war that should not have happened if the then political leaders werent so afraid of negotitition.

Presently im reading the Troubles by Tim Pat Coogan just after finishing the part covering Bloody Sunday in Derry.
Heroism indeed.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
And what is wrong with a minutes applause? Stinks of Poppy fasicism to me.

In itself, there may be nothing inappropriate about applause rather than silence, but that was not my point (as I suspect you know).
Rather, I was pointing out that alone amongst the SPL clubs, Celtic declined to stage a silence at Parkhead in 2008, because they feared that silence would be more easily abused by a verminous minority from amongst their otherwise decent support.
And events at Falkirk at the weekend proved their fears to be correct.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
Your obviously passionate about the slaughter that was WW1, but your flowering up the "great" war with examples of this and that (seriously EG I don't have the time you seem to, to start going through your examples), I could also give examples of whole communities destroyed by WW1,

Actually, I am not particularly passionate about WWI per se (or the "Great War" as it is popularly known, "great" denoting extent rather than approval, btw).
Nonetheless, I know enough about it to be aware that inter alia it "destroyed whole communities"; indeed, I might even have referred to that were it relevant to the debate, and not merely a transparent attempt by you to deflect from the real topic.
In any case, I am passionate about History generally, so I hate to see it abused by ignoramuses serving their own, narrow agenda.
On which point, I will take your failure to reply to my detailed rebuttal of your attempt to denigrate my original post as evidence that you are embarrassed at being shown to be talking through your (ahem) hoop.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
also ask yourself the question, why was conscription brought in in Britian, Canada, Australia etc... would it have been that they had run out of people feeling sorry for Belgium or Pals going off together.

My original point was that on Remembrance Day etc, we commemorate those who have died down the years, rather than the morality (or otherwise) of the conflicts in which they fought. This is because (imo) it is quite possible to volunteer for entirely noble reasons, to serve in a conflict which itself may be entirely ignoble.

The question of Conscription is something else; if you wish to discuss it, why don't you open a separate thread? Or would that not serve to deflect from the fact that you have been exposed as talking ignorant bilge about British and Irish volunteers in WWI?  ::)

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
This great sacrifice that people keep harping on about re: Irish volunteers in WW1 is revisionism at its worst, the majority of these men went to the "front" for the reason that if they did Home Rule maybe granted or "Rome Rule" denied - infact rather then selfless acts these men made the ultimate sacrifice for all the wrong reasons.

I have sought to demonstrate, with evidence, that millions of people (including Irishmen) voluntarily enlisted for WWI without the need for conscription, for a wide variety of reasons. You failed miserably in your attempt to rebut this.

Instead, your insistence on concentrating on only one of those reasons (Home Rule), and your characterisation of it as "wrong", only demonstrates a narrow, bitter and prejudiced agenda on your part.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
Poor souls lied to by better educated men.

Did anyone ever claim they weren't? I am as familiar with the phrase "Lions led by Donkeys" as anyone else (you might need to Google it, though).
However, that it only makes it more  important that we remember those Lions, rather than less (imo).
In any case, it makes it shameful when people actively seek to abuse their memory, whether that be by something relatively trivial, such as jeering a minute's silence, or something much more serious, such as detonating a bomb at a War Memorial on Remembrance Sunday.  >:(

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 04:45:37 PM
Reminds me of the average US jarhead, being told that they are going to Iraq or Afganstan to protect "freedom".

Yeah, yeah, yeah...

Your repeated attempts to draw the thread off topic, in order to deflect from your own embarrassment and ignorance, are both familiar and tedious: why don't you quit while you're behind... ::)

Quote from: rossie mad on November 11, 2009, 05:09:45 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PM

Quote from: rossie mad on November 10, 2009, 04:49:10 PM
More like two cousins knocking lumps out of each other, then when one cousin is getting his ass kicked he calls in his best friend and they end up killing the other cousin.

I have read some crap on this thread, but for its utter crassness, that (mis)characterisation of WWI takes it to...






... not have happened if the then political leaders werent so afraid of negotitition.

RM,
If you tidy your post up (quote/unquote function etc), I may reply if/when I get the opportunity.

In the meantime, it's too much hassle.
EG

Now ye Brits have had ye're bit of glorying in war ,violence , murder ,bloody sunday,Black and Tans,death of Aiden McAnespie,Lee Clegg etc etc can we declare this subject closed for another year.

Let's all pause for one minute to reflect on the achievements of the Brutish Empire

(http://www.independent.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00110/IN7662104AY2RC8-AMR_110881d.jpg)

Quote from: Rossfan on November 11, 2009, 06:27:39 PM
Now ye Brits have had ye're bit of glorying in war ,violence , murder ,bloody sunday,Black and Tans,death of Aiden McAnespie,Lee Clegg etc etc can we declare this subject closed for another year.

Well, if no-one has anything better to add to the debate than your particular brand of shi t-stirring, maybe we better had...

Quote from: armaghniac on November 11, 2009, 06:43:20 PM
Let's all pause for one minute to reflect on the achievements of the Brutish Empire

You appear to be confused - today is Armistice Day, when we remember those who fell in war.

Perhaps you mean Commonwealth Day (formerly "Empire Day"), which falls on May 24th?

If you need to know more, I daresay these people can help you:

(http://www.google.co.uk/logos/poppy09.gif)

Well, poppy day is over again for another year.

Now we've got the annual nauseating experience that is 'Children in Need' with Uncle Hugo, Wendy Austin and Fat Nolan to relish. Then there's Christmas, New Year's Eve, Valentine's day...ffs, why is life full of such repetitive mediocrity!!

EG I responded to the points which I had mentioned earlier your attempt to portray the men who went to war as doing so for the "nobelist" of reasons, you obviously view things differently to me, this does not make my views any less relevant, your numerous insults to me regarding my knowledge or views or supposed bias do you no favours.

Home Rule was the main and in most cases only factor for Irishmen to volunteer. Fact.

Certainly in Britain their were men who went to war for the reasons you mentioned, but they were in the minority a point which you avoid. More were conscripted.

Where did I say that men didn't volunteer (in response to your third last point).

I have not tried to deflect nor have I tried to take this off topic.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PM

In fact, at the start of the 20th Century, the British were (typically) uninterested in events on Continental Europe, somewhere where they had no significant possessions and where they hadn't fought any major battles since helping topple Napoleon a century earlier.
Consequently, their involvement in WWI followed a complex series of events, following a crack in the Hapsburg Empire emerging at Sarajevo, which then drew in the Russians, Germans and Turks, before spilling over into France and the Low Countries. As such, Britain felt itself compelled to join in to defend two strategic interests: namely the threat to its overseas Empire posed by the newly expansionist German Empire (especially via its greatly enlarged Navy), plus Britain's formal alliance with France, whose borders were threatened by the Germans.

So the Crimean War wasn't a major battle then?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/8355836.stm

Interesting piece, especially that Armagh War Memorial has no Roll of Honour, due to the Nationalist-controlled local Council originally not wanting to have to reveal that the majority of those who died in WWI were actually from their own community... :(

http://www.armaghwarmemorial.com/
Oh well, the above is one exercise in historical revisionism which is very worthwhile (imo). In particular, this extract from the "Your Family's Story" section might be applicable to some posters on this site:

"Is there a story about a man or woman from the Armagh and District area who died in either world war  missing from this web site? 
After almost one hundred years the records available do not match the information often held by the family.
If you know of anyone who is missing from this data base, or if you have additional information, photographs or personal items that you would like to be displayed alongside our current information please complete the attached form. Upon receipt one of the project workers will review the information, and if necessary will contact you"

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
EG I responded to the points which I had mentioned earlier your attempt to portray the men who went to war as doing so for the "nobelist" of reasons, you obviously view things differently to me, this does not make my views any less relevant, your numerous insults to me regarding my knowledge or views or supposed bias do you no favours.

Incorrect. I pointed out that millions of men volunteered from a variety of motives, some of them noble, others less so. I'm not sure that that any of those motives could be called "ignoble", but in any case, the distinction I was making, and which has clearly been lost on you, is that it is possible to commemorate those people who lost their life in war, without celebrating the war itself.
Which is why, for example, Harry Patch, Britain's last surviving WWI veteran could describe that war as "legalised mass murder", yet still participate in Remembrance Day commemorations at the age of 105:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jul/25/harry-patch-obituary

As for the subject of "insults", you may eg insult my and others intelligence all you like, but I take exception when you insult the memory of people who made the ultimate sacrifice, usually in conflicts which were a hell of a sight more important than our own petty little troubles in Ireland and who (self-evidently) cannot speak up for themselves.

Therefore, if I choose to use the language I do towards you, and people think less of me than of you as a consequence, so be it.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
Home Rule was the main and in most cases only factor for Irishmen to volunteer. Fact.

If you are so confident it is a "fact", you will have no difficulty in proving it. I won't be holding my breath, mind...

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
Certainly in Britain their were men who went to war for the reasons you mentioned, but they were in the minority a point which you avoid. More were conscripted.

I am well aware that more of the combatants in WWI eventually were conscripted than volunteered. However, you have no evidence that those conscripts were unwilling to fight (i.e. see the cause furthered); rather, after the slaughter of the early days of the War, they were unwilling to die, especially in a conflict which didn't seem to be getting anywhere - there is an important distinction.
And in any case, if you are reluctant to commemorate those people who volunteered for WWI because you dislike their motives, why do you also denigrate those people who were later conscripted i.e. had no choice but to fight?
Might that be because they were all serving in a British uniform, and it is more important to you to express your customary bitterness to all things British, than try to make distinctions in complex, difficult situations like this?

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
Where did I say that men didn't volunteer (in response to your third last point).

Tbh, I'm not sure why you, a Donegal Irishman, are especially interested in those soldiers from GB, volunteers or conscripts who fought the Kaiser in Flanders etc, since they can be of little concern to you.
However, in the context of this debate, you and others who have been scathing about Poppy Day etc, have done so from an Irish perspective. That is, you and they have concentrated on those combatants who came from Ireland.
On which point, all of those who did so were volunteers, which is why your  introduction of Conscription is a red herring.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 11, 2009, 07:18:22 PM
I have not tried to deflect nor have I tried to take this off topic.

Therefore when I take the trouble to reply directly to points put to me by you and other posters, with specific and reasoned evidence, why do you not reply in kind?
Would it be that when first you tried, with sneering references eg to Belgium, Catholicism, Pals, voluntary enlistment and Parkhead 2008 etc, you were exposed as actually knowing nothing about what you were posting?

Pathetic.

Quote from: Rav67 on November 11, 2009, 07:23:31 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 11, 2009, 01:37:36 PM

In fact, at the start of the 20th Century, the British were (typically) uninterested in events on Continental Europe, somewhere where they had no significant possessions and where they hadn't fought any major battles since helping topple Napoleon a century earlier.
Consequently, their involvement in WWI followed a complex series of events, following a crack in the Hapsburg Empire emerging at Sarajevo, which then drew in the Russians, Germans and Turks, before spilling over into France and the Low Countries. As such, Britain felt itself compelled to join in to defend two strategic interests: namely the threat to its overseas Empire posed by the newly expansionist German Empire (especially via its greatly enlarged Navy), plus Britain's formal alliance with France, whose borders were threatened by the Germans.

So the Crimean War wasn't a major battle then?

Technically you may be correct that the Crimean War was fought in what I called "Continental Europe".

However, I discounted that particular war from my thesis, since Britain and Russia were fighting mostly in the Ukraine, effectively over the Ottoman Empire, whose territories in Continental Europe were of minor importance (Balkans notwithstanding).

And in any case, Britain's Imperial competition with Russia, which effectively inspired the Crimean War, was all to do with "The Great Game" i.e. expansion into India and the East. The Ukraine happened to provide the venue, but neither party was concerned with making gains in Europe out of it.

Still, if that's the best you can quibble with from what was a lengthy post, perhaps I wasn't doing too badly?  ;)

QuoteYou appear to be confused - today is Armistice Day, when we remember those who fell in war.

Thanks, for telling me something I already know. However the thread is about the misappropriation of the poppy, an international symbol of the Great War, and its paper representation being used as a symbol of British nationalism. I do not believe for one moment that all this carry on has anything to do with all of the victims of war. It does not commemorate the victims of the British only those who killed them.

It represents the Canadian soldiers who died as well

Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 11, 2009, 10:20:30 PM
It represents the Canadian soldiers who died as well

How much of the money do they get? Where does the money go?

What is the 'poppy appeal' for? If the poppy is to remember the dead of the great war, but presumably only the dead of the winners, where does the money go these days?

Are there many survivors from WWI (and indeed WWII) now still alive?

I might be missing the point, but to me, as a common visitor to London for work, it appears to be a pseudo patriotic ritual to rally the nation around the troops currently fighting in the British armed forces. Similar to the whole republican-driven 'fly the stars and stripes' campaign in America when the Gulf War kicked off.

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 11, 2009, 10:32:50 PM
I might be missing the point, but to me, as a common visitor to London for work, it appears to be a pseudo patriotic ritual to rally the nation around the troops currently fighting in the British armed forces. Similar to the whole republican-driven 'fly the stars and stripes' campaign in America when the Gulf War kicked off.

I don't remember the poppy malarkey being half as popular 10 years ago. As you say I think a lot of it has to do with drumming up support for the current "war" effort in far flung lands.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 11, 2009, 10:30:30 PM

Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 11, 2009, 10:20:30 PM
It represents the Canadian soldiers who died as well

How much of the money do they get? Where does the money go?

$8 million a year gets spread around

It's gets spread around as follows

QuoteConducted each year for about 2 weeks prior to November 11th in order to raise funds for needy Canadian veterans, ex-service members and their dependants, as well as Commonwealth veterans

Poppies, provided for public and personal display, are distributed for donations which are not mandatory; in some cases (school children), the poppies are distributed solely to perpetuate Remembrance without remuneration

Intention of the Poppy Campaign is to remind Canadians of the sacrifice of the 117.000 Canadians who died in the military, Merchant Navy and Ferry Command in two world wars, the Korean War and other theatres globally

Donations received from the Poppy Campaign are put into trust accounts and used accordingly to assist needy veterans, ex-service members, their families and former members of Commonwealth and allied military services

First made in 1922, poppy emblem production by disabled veterans was sponsored by the Department of Soldiers Civil Re-establishment in VAC sheltered workshops, presently (from 1996) the work is being done by a private company

18 million poppies, 70,000 wreaths, crosses and sprays distributed annually

More than $8million distributed annually

Activities supported by Poppy Trust Funds include: assisting needy veterans, ex-service members and their families; purchasing medical appliances; funding medical research and training, providing bursaries to the children and grandchildren of veterans and ex-service members; and funding accommodation, care facilities, meals-on-wheels, transport and related services for veterans, seniors and disabled persons

Quote from: armaghniac on November 11, 2009, 09:46:27 PM

QuoteYou appear to be confused - today is Armistice Day, when we remember those who fell in war.

Thanks, for telling me something I already know. However the thread is about the misappropriation of the poppy, an international symbol of the Great War, and its paper representation being used as a symbol of British nationalism. I do not believe for one moment that all this carry on has anything to do with all of the victims of war. It does not commemorate the victims of the British only those who killed them.

It commemorates Commonwealth veterans and war dead. Surely not a difficult concept to grasp.

Quote from: MW on November 11, 2009, 11:47:54 PM

Quote from: armaghniac on November 11, 2009, 09:46:27 PM

QuoteYou appear to be confused - today is Armistice Day, when we remember those who fell in war.

Thanks, for telling me something I already know. However the thread is about the misappropriation of the poppy, an international symbol of the Great War, and its paper representation being used as a symbol of British nationalism. I do not believe for one moment that all this carry on has anything to do with all of the victims of war. It does not commemorate the victims of the British only those who killed them.

It commemorates Commonwealth veterans and war dead. Surely not a difficult concept to grasp.

It also represents the dead of the UDR, does it not? Hardly surprising nationalists don't want to commemorate that shower of colluding murdering bastards, is it? 

I was responding to the notion that it was either a symbol of British nationalism or designed to commemorate all the dead of war.

So, when the last WW2 survivor dies, is that it for the poppies, or will we still be confronted with a "support the British troops of Bloody Sunday/support Lee Clegg/support the soldier who murdered Aidan McAnespie etc" campaign of misinformation and deception for that is what it is?

RM,
If you tidy your post up (quote/unquote function etc), I may reply if/when I get the opportunity.

In the meantime, it's too much hassle.
EG


Fair enough i was right you were wrong.
In all seriousness though i wouldnt be the sharpest tool in the box when it comes to computers or the inner workings of this forum so i cant even begin to know where to start with how to quote/unquote and also forgive me but i do admit my spelling at times isnt the best.

So if you get a chance try and go through and maybe try and justify your earlier ramblings.

EG your a man with far too much time on your hands.

Now you point out one thing I've said which is incorrect.

Possibly shouldn't have used the words crap or rubbish in my initial post (milder adjectives would have done), but your abuse from then on says very little about you.

did evil gaafan say that he wore a poppy in support of a fiend of his that died in the 'great war' ?

oter than this I am reading from these posts that the poppy day thingy (which was a lesser known or celebrated event than say cancer society daffodil day is now - some 15 years ago )
is to 'celebrate' the deaths of all in the wars ?

if thats so then yes the udr are also 'celebrated' but by the same token I am correct in thinking that as it is 'ALL deaths' then we are also 'celebrating' the German dead, the Italian Dead, the Russian Dead, The Irish dead, the IRA Dead, the INLA dead etc etc...

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 12, 2009, 01:36:39 PM
did evil gaafan say that he wore a poppy in support of a fiend of his that died in the 'great war' ?

oter than this I am reading from these posts that the poppy day thingy (which was a lesser known or celebrated event than say cancer society daffodil day is now - some 15 years ago )
is to 'celebrate' the deaths of all in the wars ?

if thats so then yes the udr are also 'celebrated' but by the same token I am correct in thinking that as it is 'ALL deaths' then we are also 'celebrating' the German dead, the Italian Dead, the Russian Dead, The Irish dead, the IRA Dead, the INLA dead etc etc...

I'm looking forwrad to this rely from EG

EG gotta hand to you, that was some post you made a few pages back....this is one of the few threads that I am enjoying on the board the past while.

If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

in england you would expect it - though its not as common as you would be lead tobelieve from looking at the amount of them on the telly

in Ireland I dont think people could argue that it was a badge

in the north of Ireland the easter lily and poppy wearing is exactly that- a badge.
I am sure there are a few old ex servicemen who are genuine and maybe some younger ones, but wearing it for weeks kind of shows the motive for what it is !

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

In the north, it's a badge of Britishness and little else.  As has been said by others in this thread, the British Legion appeal yearly is for those British soldiers who are still serving as well as those who have left the army - that includes the likes of Clegg, the soldier who shot Aidan McAnesbie etc as well as soliders in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 05:39:47 PM

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

In the north, it's a badge of Britishness and little else.  As has been said by others in this thread, the British Legion appeal yearly is for those British soldiers who are still serving as well as those who have left the army - that includes the likes of Clegg, the soldier who shot Aidan McAnesbie etc as well as soliders in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc

Cleggs name seems to crop up quite a lot in this thread, is there any evidence that he has received any money from the poppy appeal?

You could quite easily stand the badge of britishness stuff on its head, seems to me its more a badge of 'irishness' to reject the poppy and all that it supposedly stands for.

Its bullshit to suggest that people only wear the poppy to get up your nose (some egos on here by the way, a lot of worlds revolving around certain individuals on here). Most people wear it as a mark of respect for the sacrifice of previous generations not because of some petty sectarian nose rubbing exercise.

Is there any evidence that any of the murderers in the British Army didn't get money from it?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 05:52:27 PM
Is there any evidence that any of the murderers in the British Army didn't get money from it?

If you make an accusation the burden to provide proof is on you, thats the way it normally works (in the real world at least).

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article6731100.ece

Interesting article from last July ... if anything, things have got worse, sure Nick Griffin's even turning up now

delboy, this isn't a court of law.  This is a forum on the internet.  I hope you can see the difference.  In other words, I don't have to prove a thing to you, I made a statement which I will stand by because I believe it to be factual based on evidence I see everyday in the real world

I didn't say that everyone who wears the poppy does so on those grounds, I am sure that people in England, Wales and Scotland would wear it for their own reasons which would have nothing to do with being a badge of Britishness.  I believe that honour goes to some small-minded northern unionists - I don't think that all unionists who wear it do so as a badge of their Britishness, just the majority of thos who wear it

Rejecting the poppy because of what it stands for doesn't make me a better or worse Irishman, just an honest one

That's my opinion, you may not like it and you may not agree with me but that is my opinion

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

Like last year, I have only seen a couple of dozen people with poppies here, I've seen them being sold in one shop this year.  I seen one on a car this morning, isn't that tacky!
I have seen an awful lot more poppies in the 6 counties for weeks surrounding the poppy day and for those reasons my only logical conclusion is that an awful lot of people where them in the North of Ireland as a badge of identity, something to stick in the other crowds faces etc.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 12, 2009, 06:26:17 PM

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

Like last year, I have only seen a couple of dozen people with poppies here, I've seen them being sold in one shop this year.  I seen one on a car this morning, isn't that tacky!
I have seen an awful lot more poppies in the 6 counties for weeks surrounding the poppy day and for those reasons my only logical conclusion is that an awful lot of people where them in the North of Ireland as a badge of identity, something to stick in the other crowds faces etc.

Been on a course most of the past 2 weeks, think there was 16 trainees so most are mid-late 20s.  One doll wore a poppy on her coat on the way in for about a week, the teacher wore one on the 11th and that's it.  Watching TV you'd think everyone in England wears them flat out for a month.  But then again watching TV and reading the papers you'd swear people over here actually gave a f**k Gordon Brown mis-spelt a squaddie's name.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 05:39:47 PM

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

In the north, it's a badge of Britishness and little else.  As has been said by others in this thread, the British Legion appeal yearly is for those British soldiers who are still serving as well as those who have left the army - that includes the likes of Clegg, the soldier who shot Aidan McAnesbie etc as well as soliders in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc

If you're talking about Lee Clegg, he didn't shoot Aidan McAnespie. He was the para who shot a couple of joyriders in west Belfast.

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

I don't for a moment believe the poppy is an inherently in-your-face gesture, especially in Britain. I do think it is just a vehicle to try and get a sense of patriotism and support behind 'the boys' away in Afghanistan, Iraq etc.

I don't think the people I work with in London (a fair few of whom would wear the poppy) are trying to make any sort of statement to me, or to anyone else, other than they remember their dead, and probably that they support their current troops.

In Northern Ireland, the knowledge that it could be taken as provocative by some people, must mean that those who wear it either say feck it, I'm wearing it anyway, and it's their problem if they don't accept I have valid reasons for wearing it, or else they do it to be provocative.

Do people who wear the Easter Lily in NI do so to provoke a response, or do so in spite of the response that might provoke?

I think if you wear it for the right reason, then fair play to you.

Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 12, 2009, 07:53:23 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 05:39:47 PM

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

In the north, it's a badge of Britishness and little else.  As has been said by others in this thread, the British Legion appeal yearly is for those British soldiers who are still serving as well as those who have left the army - that includes the likes of Clegg, the soldier who shot Aidan McAnesbie etc as well as soliders in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc

If you're talking about Lee Clegg, he didn't shoot Aidan McAnespie. He was the para who shot a couple of joyriders in west Belfast.

Can you not read the post properly before commenting?  It would save you getting it wrong

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 08:10:51 PM

Quote from: Myles Na G. on November 12, 2009, 07:53:23 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 05:39:47 PM

Quote from: deiseach on November 12, 2009, 02:15:29 PM
If we can ignore the trolls for a moment, how many of us here see the wearing of the poppy as an inherently in-your-face gesture?  I'm not talking about the ubiquity of it on British television or keyboard warriors slandering those who dare to be different, just your attitude to people wearing it in the street

In the north, it's a badge of Britishness and little else.  As has been said by others in this thread, the British Legion appeal yearly is for those British soldiers who are still serving as well as those who have left the army - that includes the likes of Clegg, the soldier who shot Aidan McAnesbie etc as well as soliders in Afghanistan, Iraq etc etc

If you're talking about Lee Clegg, he didn't shoot Aidan McAnespie. He was the para who shot a couple of joyriders in west Belfast.

Can you not read the post properly before commenting?  It would save you getting it wrong

What, and get him to change the habit of a lifetime?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 06:17:33 PM
delboy, this isn't a court of law.  This is a forum on the internet.  I hope you can see the difference.  In other words, I don't have to prove a thing to you, I made a statement which I will stand by because I believe it to be factual based on evidence I see everyday in the real world

I didn't say that everyone who wears the poppy does so on those grounds, I am sure that people in England, Wales and Scotland would wear it for their own reasons which would have nothing to do with being a badge of Britishness.  I believe that honour goes to some small-minded northern unionists - I don't think that all unionists who wear it do so as a badge of their Britishness, just the majority of thos who wear it

Rejecting the poppy because of what it stands for doesn't make me a better or worse Irishman, just an honest one

That's my opinion, you may not like it and you may not agree with me but that is my opinion

So your come back is that this is an internet forum and therefore you should be allowed to make all sorts of claims and not have to back them up with any evidence.
That's fair enough but without any evidence to back them up, they are essentially worthless.

That's very generous of you to say that some people don't wear the poppy as some sort of fingers up to you, and that its only the small minded Northern Unionists that do (is there any southern ones anyway? whats with adding the northern?) and a majority at that. Yet another mind reader on here that would give Derren Brown a run for his money, i swear the talent on here is wasted.

Get a grip not everybody goes through their life thinking how they can get one up on the other half or how we could go out of our way to rub their noses in it, some of us don't engage in such petty nonsense (i pity you that you obviously do) some of us have other things to worry about, something called a life.

But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

Quote from: delboy on November 12, 2009, 11:40:09 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 06:17:33 PM
delboy, this isn't a court of law.  This is a forum on the internet.  I hope you can see the difference.  In other words, I don't have to prove a thing to you, I made a statement which I will stand by because I believe it to be factual based on evidence I see everyday in the real world

I didn't say that everyone who wears the poppy does so on those grounds, I am sure that people in England, Wales and Scotland would wear it for their own reasons which would have nothing to do with being a badge of Britishness.  I believe that honour goes to some small-minded northern unionists - I don't think that all unionists who wear it do so as a badge of their Britishness, just the majority of thos who wear it

Rejecting the poppy because of what it stands for doesn't make me a better or worse Irishman, just an honest one

That's my opinion, you may not like it and you may not agree with me but that is my opinion

So your come back is that this is an internet forum and therefore you should be allowed to make all sorts of claims and not have to back them up with any evidence.
That's fair enough but without any evidence to back them up, they are essentially worthless.

That's very generous of you to say that some people don't wear the poppy as some sort of fingers up to you, and that its only the small minded Northern Unionists that do (is there any southern ones anyway? whats with adding the northern?) and a majority at that. Yet another mind reader on here that would give Derren Brown a run for his money, i swear the talent on here is wasted.

Get a grip not everybody goes through their life thinking how they can get one up on the other half or how we could go out of our way to rub their noses in it, some of us don't engage in such petty nonsense (i pity you that you obviously do) some of us have other things to worry about, something called a life.

Of course there is such a thing as a southern Unionist.Do you not think that Orangemen living in the 26 counties would consider themselves Unionist ?Do you not appreciate that these people would rather the link with the UK had been maintained throughout the 32 counties.?Check out the Reform movement for a bit of an insight into Southern Unionist thinking.It's not as black and white as you appear to think.

Quotesome unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

Anyone who thinks that noone does it for this reason is deluded.
I do think it is insulting to many people the suggestion that the vast majority do it as a "feck you" which has been suggested by some on this thead

Quote from: redhugh on November 13, 2009, 01:31:41 AM
Of course there is such a thing as a southern Unionist.Do you not think that Orangemen living in the 26 counties would consider themselves Unionist ?Do you not appreciate that these people would rather the link with the UK had been maintained throughout the 32 counties.?Check out the Reform movement for a bit of an insight into Southern Unionist thinking.It's not as black and white as you appear to think.

You don't have to be an Orangeman to be a Unionist in the south. Enda Kenny and his party members are Unionists.

By suggesting/stating that the poppy is worn to commemorate all the dead of all wars, and by including the RUC and UDR, this clearly recognises that Irish Republicans were fighting in legitimate wars;  but we were told it was terrorism. 

Maybe the BBC's decision to describe (formerly) 'terrorists' (sic) as 'paramilitaries' (sic) is saying something.  jayzus there could be ones getting a pension yet ;)

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

I don't have to convnce myself, i know what i think in my head and i can tell you that i could'nt give a flying f**k about putting two fingers up to this or that community. I've bigger issues like paying the mortgage etc to worry about. Whats more i don't honestly know a single person that has this 'that'll show them attitude (maybe i just hangout with well adjusted people).
There probably is some morons out there that were it as a badge, but a majority!! thats just idle prejudiced speculation, those that do though are just the other side of the coin to the poppy haters on here caught up in their own mire of bigotry and prejudice.

Quote from: redhugh on November 13, 2009, 01:31:41 AM

Quote from: delboy on November 12, 2009, 11:40:09 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 12, 2009, 06:17:33 PM
delboy, this isn't a court of law.  This is a forum on the internet.  I hope you can see the difference.  In other words, I don't have to prove a thing to you, I made a statement which I will stand by because I believe it to be factual based on evidence I see everyday in the real world

I didn't say that everyone who wears the poppy does so on those grounds, I am sure that people in England, Wales and Scotland would wear it for their own reasons which would have nothing to do with being a badge of Britishness.  I believe that honour goes to some small-minded northern unionists - I don't think that all unionists who wear it do so as a badge of their Britishness, just the majority of thos who wear it

Rejecting the poppy because of what it stands for doesn't make me a better or worse Irishman, just an honest one

That's my opinion, you may not like it and you may not agree with me but that is my opinion

So your come back is that this is an internet forum and therefore you should be allowed to make all sorts of claims and not have to back them up with any evidence.
That's fair enough but without any evidence to back them up, they are essentially worthless.

That's very generous of you to say that some people don't wear the poppy as some sort of fingers up to you, and that its only the small minded Northern Unionists that do (is there any southern ones anyway? whats with adding the northern?) and a majority at that. Yet another mind reader on here that would give Derren Brown a run for his money, i swear the talent on here is wasted.

Get a grip not everybody goes through their life thinking how they can get one up on the other half or how we could go out of our way to rub their noses in it, some of us don't engage in such petty nonsense (i pity you that you obviously do) some of us have other things to worry about, something called a life.

Of course there is such a thing as a southern Unionist.Do you not think that Orangemen living in the 26 counties would consider themselves Unionist ?Do you not appreciate that these people would rather the link with the UK had been maintained throughout the 32 counties.?Check out the Reform movement for a bit of an insight into Southern Unionist thinking.It's not as black and white as you appear to think.

Do they? I genuinely don't know, I would be interested to read any links to the orange order in the republic of ireland and their position on unification of ireland to the UK.

O'Neill do the humane thing and put this dog out of its misery.

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 12:25:30 PM
Do they? I genuinely don't know, I would be interested to read any links to the orange order in the republic of ireland and their position on unification of ireland to the UK.

Check this out delboy:

Dublin and Wicklow Orangemen (http://www.dublin1313.com/)

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 13, 2009, 12:28:14 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 12:25:30 PM
Do they? I genuinely don't know, I would be interested to read any links to the orange order in the republic of ireland and their position on unification of ireland to the UK.

Check this out delboy:

Dublin and Wicklow Orangemen (http://www.dublin1313.com/)

A lot of stuff about wanting a reformation day etc, can't see anyhting about reunification with the UK, i have a meeting to scoot off to, if you can link to the reunification stuff i'll read it when i come back.

Quote from: nifan on November 13, 2009, 08:22:19 AM

Quotesome unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

Anyone who thinks that noone does it for this reason is deluded.
I do think it is insulting to many people the suggestion that the vast majority do it as a "feck you" which has been suggested by some on this thead

Nifan, I know its not the vast majority, but to listen to some on here you'd think it was nobody.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 13, 2009, 08:30:13 AM

Quote from: redhugh on November 13, 2009, 01:31:41 AM
Of course there is such a thing as a southern Unionist.Do you not think that Orangemen living in the 26 counties would consider themselves Unionist ?Do you not appreciate that these people would rather the link with the UK had been maintained throughout the 32 counties.?Check out the Reform movement for a bit of an insight into Southern Unionist thinking.It's not as black and white as you appear to think.

You don't have to be an Orangeman to be a Unionist in the south. Enda Kenny and his party members are Unionists.

Yes - firm grasp on reality there - the party that declared the republic is in fact a unionist party.

Dev was a secret agent for the Brits, you know. He was also a nazi sympathiser.

Your turn.

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

I don't have to convnce myself, i know what i think in my head and i can tell you that i could'nt give a flying f**k about putting two fingers up to this or that community. I've bigger issues like paying the mortgage etc to worry about. Whats more i don't honestly know a single person that has this 'that'll show them attitude (maybe i just hangout with well adjusted people).
There probably is some morons out there that were it as a badge, but a majority!! thats just idle prejudiced speculation, those that do though are just the other side of the coin to the poppy haters on here caught up in their own mire of bigotry and prejudice.

...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Good to hear that the poppy commemorates all in all the wars so our 'Fenian dead' are also commemorated. Might even buy a poppy next year too !!!

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 12:56:36 PM
A lot of stuff about wanting a reformation day etc, can't see anyhting about reunification with the UK, i have a meeting to scoot off to, if you can link to the reunification stuff i'll read it when i come back.

True, they don't seem to mention it there (a taboo perhaps).

But here:

WIKI United Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland)

May have more info, for example:


Reform Movement and lodges of the Orange Order in the Republic of Ireland, that are sympathetic to Northern Ireland remaining within the UK for the foreseeable future, but their impact on the broader political opinion is negligible.

Quote from: Fear ón Srath Bán on November 13, 2009, 01:51:02 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 12:56:36 PM
A lot of stuff about wanting a reformation day etc, can't see anyhting about reunification with the UK, i have a meeting to scoot off to, if you can link to the reunification stuff i'll read it when i come back.

True, they don't seem to mention it there (a taboo perhaps).

But here:

WIKI United Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland)

May have more info, for example:


Reform Movement and lodges of the Orange Order in the Republic of Ireland, that are sympathetic to Northern Ireland remaining within the UK for the foreseeable future, but their impact on the broader political opinion is negligible.

Found this on the FAQ section of that website


2. Are you anti-Irish?
No. We consider ourselves very proud Irishmen, albetit with the added British dimension. We welcome Mary McAleese's recent comments that "It is possible to be both Irish and British, possible to be both Orange and Irish. We face into a landscape of new possibilities and understandings."

4. Are you anti-republican?

No. It comes as a great surprise to some that the Orange Order flourishes in countries which are Republics. In the United States of America, the Republic of Togo, the Republic of Ghana as well as the Republic of Ireland, you will find Orange associations and societies. This is because the Orange Movement at its core is about Reformed Christianity and how this relates to society. The idea of 'Civil and Religious liberties for all' has spread right throughout the world, and brought immense freedom to many, not least republics.

They certainly don't seem to be overtly calling for the reunification of ireland to the UK.


Ta for the other links i'll get a nosy through them later.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 01:41:38 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

I don't have to convnce myself, i know what i think in my head and i can tell you that i could'nt give a flying f**k about putting two fingers up to this or that community. I've bigger issues like paying the mortgage etc to worry about. Whats more i don't honestly know a single person that has this 'that'll show them attitude (maybe i just hangout with well adjusted people).
There probably is some morons out there that were it as a badge, but a majority!! thats just idle prejudiced speculation, those that do though are just the other side of the coin to the poppy haters on here caught up in their own mire of bigotry and prejudice.

...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Good to hear that the poppy commemorates all in all the wars so our 'Fenian dead' are also commemorated. Might even buy a poppy next year too !!!

Any figures to back that up or is it just more of the same old opinions trotted out as facts again?

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 12:58:37 PM

Quote from: nifan on November 13, 2009, 08:22:19 AM

Quotesome unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

Anyone who thinks that noone does it for this reason is deluded.
I do think it is insulting to many people the suggestion that the vast majority do it as a "feck you" which has been suggested by some on this thead

Nifan, I know its not the vast majority, but to listen to some on here you'd think it was nobody.

So its not the vast majority, care to put a figure on how many you think (know  ???) it is?

Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2009, 01:06:30 PM

Yes - firm grasp on reality there - the party that declared the republic is in fact a unionist party.

Dev was a secret agent for the Brits, you know. He was also a nazi sympathiser.

Your turn.

A Unionist is someone who wants a Union with Britan. FG want this. They also want the status quo with the north under British control. This makes them Unionists.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 13, 2009, 02:36:58 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2009, 01:06:30 PM

Yes - firm grasp on reality there - the party that declared the republic is in fact a unionist party.

Dev was a secret agent for the Brits, you know. He was also a nazi sympathiser.

Your turn.

A Unionist is someone who wants a Union with Britan. FG want this. They also want the status quo with the north under British control. This makes them Unionists.

Sorry - didn't realise you were joking.

FG wants a "Union" with Britain? References please.

If support of the present dispensation in the North defines Unionism, then we're nearly all Unionists (including Sinn Féin).

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 01:41:38 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

I don't have to convnce myself, i know what i think in my head and i can tell you that i could'nt give a flying f**k about putting two fingers up to this or that community. I've bigger issues like paying the mortgage etc to worry about. Whats more i don't honestly know a single person that has this 'that'll show them attitude (maybe i just hangout with well adjusted people).
There probably is some morons out there that were it as a badge, but a majority!! thats just idle prejudiced speculation, those that do though are just the other side of the coin to the poppy haters on here caught up in their own mire of bigotry and prejudice.

...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Good to hear that the poppy commemorates all in all the wars so our 'Fenian dead' are also commemorated. Might even buy a poppy next year too !!!

Any figures to back that up or is it just more of the same old opinions trotted out as facts again?

maybe take off the blinkers and use the old eyes ...it works for most peopel !!

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 01:41:38 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

I don't have to convnce myself, i know what i think in my head and i can tell you that i could'nt give a flying f**k about putting two fingers up to this or that community. I've bigger issues like paying the mortgage etc to worry about. Whats more i don't honestly know a single person that has this 'that'll show them attitude (maybe i just hangout with well adjusted people).
There probably is some morons out there that were it as a badge, but a majority!! thats just idle prejudiced speculation, those that do though are just the other side of the coin to the poppy haters on here caught up in their own mire of bigotry and prejudice.

...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Good to hear that the poppy commemorates all in all the wars so our 'Fenian dead' are also commemorated. Might even buy a poppy next year too !!!

Any figures to back that up or is it just more of the same old opinions trotted out as facts again?

maybe take off the blinkers and use the old eyes ...it works for most peopel !!

Or you could just give some evidence instead of spouting opinions as facts, works for most people, i believe!!

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:08:09 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 02:56:32 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 02:19:37 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 01:41:38 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 11:40:56 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on November 13, 2009, 01:11:27 AM
But the fact is that while you convince yourself that everyone in the north wears the poppy for the right reason, the rest of us know that a disproportionate number of people (from the one community) in the north wear it, compared to anywhere else why?
Would it be maybe the elephant in the room that you avoid - some unionist/loyalist/protestant people in the north wear it as a "badge of honour" or if you like, a "feck you, we're still here" badge.

I don't have to convnce myself, i know what i think in my head and i can tell you that i could'nt give a flying f**k about putting two fingers up to this or that community. I've bigger issues like paying the mortgage etc to worry about. Whats more i don't honestly know a single person that has this 'that'll show them attitude (maybe i just hangout with well adjusted people).
There probably is some morons out there that were it as a badge, but a majority!! thats just idle prejudiced speculation, those that do though are just the other side of the coin to the poppy haters on here caught up in their own mire of bigotry and prejudice.

...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Good to hear that the poppy commemorates all in all the wars so our 'Fenian dead' are also commemorated. Might even buy a poppy next year too !!!

Any figures to back that up or is it just more of the same old opinions trotted out as facts again?

maybe take off the blinkers and use the old eyes ...it works for most peopel !!

Or you could just give some evidence instead of spouting opinions as facts, works for most people, i believe!!

it aint just me - plenty of others on this thread have also outlined how little the poppy is worn by comparison to the badge wearing loyalist/unioniits in the north of Ireland !
so may be take of the blinkers and the sectarian/bigoted  ones too and see the bigger picture !

dont beloieve all you read is the old phrase, you cant beat seeing things in reality !!
Though the likes of you see feck all with yer heads in the sand (or up yer holes!!)
Have a nice delusional weekend!
:D

So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 01:41:38 PM
...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Haven't time to respond to all of my "avid readers"  ;), but I cannot let the above tripe pass.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8333733.stm
As regards how long NI people wear their Poppy, it simply cannot  be any longer than those in GB, since the RBL starts selling them on the same date throughout the UK. This year it was 22nd October. Indeed, depending on what day/dates  Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day fall (how many weekends etc), the onsale date is always  approximately 3 weeks before 11th November.

As for there being so many more (Unionist) Poppy wearers in NI than in GB, that is patent balls. Last year, 26 million  Poppies were sold throughout the UK. Therefore, unless the 1 million Unionists in NI were all buying a couple of dozen each, by the time you discount that proportion of the UK's 60 million inhabitants who are foreigners/immigrants etc, with no knowledge of or interest in the Poppy, then it must mean that near enough every other person in the UK bought one.

Of course, that prompts the question why it doesn't always seem that way. Partly this will be because many will only buy theirs on Remembrance Sunday or in the lead up to Armistice Day. Or speaking for myself, I bought one reasonably soon after they first went on sale, pinning it on the Lapel of my overcoat.
However, it and the coat hung on a peg in the hall for most of the next fortnight, since I was more concerned with the donation than the display, and so couldn't be bothered to switch it to whatever I was wearing any time I went out.

Anyhow, I understand and respect why many people decline to buy a Poppy, or even object to it: that should be their right, without comment or prejudice.

I just wish those of us who do choose to wear the Poppy were accorded the same freedom and respect, without others* casting their own petty and prejudiced motives on us, as though we were all "fenian-hating, Fu ck-You Brits" etc,  solely preoccupied with flaunting our Britishness in the face of our neighbours.


* - When it comes to "others", you know (or should do) who you are, and after reading some of the bitter and vitriolic posts on this thread, the rest of us now know who you are, too... :o

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

I dont have any problem with the poppy in England - as I know that all the people wearing them are genuine. Living in England for a long time does help out in that regard!
Deny it all ya like but you cant beat visual evidence as much as youd like to deny it ! :D

its just that the people in the north of Ireland are not all that way and your posts denying this just seem like the usual loyalist/unionist apologetic nonsense for such.

as for the nonsense that evil gaafan has just posted - typical - I suppose I should have said proportionally per population, but even then his usual stats that look great but never address the actual point or give decent content in formulating an answer (just a diversion) - the proof is looking at the crowds of people in English streets.
Poppies are not as obvious proportionally and popies appear and are worn long before they appear on English streets and are apparant long after the English based folk have stopped wearing theirs. ........apart from the TV people that is !

:) ;)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 04:27:35 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

I dont have any problem with the poppy in England - as I know that all the people wearing them are genuine. Living in England for a long time does help out in that regard!
Deny it all ya like but you cant beat visual evidence as much as youd like to deny it ! :D

its just that the people in the north of Ireland are not all that way and your posts denying this just seem like the usual loyalist/unionist apologetic nonsense for such.

as for the nonsense that evil gaafan has just posted - typical - I suppose I should have said proportionally per population, but even then his usual stats that look great but never address the actual point or give decent content in formulating an answer (just a diversion) - the proof is looking at the crowds of people in English streets.
Poppies are not as obvious proportionally and popies appear and are worn long before they appear on English streets and are apparant long after the English based folk have stopped wearing theirs. ........apart from the TV people that is !

:) ;)

Deny what  ???, there is nothing to deny except your opinion  ??? Thats not a debate its just you making claims with nothing whatsoever to back them up, 1 out of 10 must try harder!!

I can't even begin to decipher the goobledygook you've written about it being acceptable in england but not in NI, something about people living there a long time, iis their lifespan longer or something  ??? what nonsensical point are you trying rather badly to make.

Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2009, 02:56:13 PM
Sorry - didn't realise you were joking.

FG wants a "Union" with Britain? References please.

If support of the present dispensation in the North defines Unionism, then we're nearly all Unionists (including Sinn Féin).

I don't want to get into a debate about it as it's no big deal. They are entitled to be Unionists if they want to. Unionism is not the dirty word many think it is. It's ok for FG to be Unionists as it is for them to be right wing. They don't need to be defended for wanting the 6 counties to remain under British control.

I don't think SF are Unionist. I'd say they're the opposite.

Was in the National Museum in Dublin this week and I had to leave the cafe early for fear that I would stick the boot into 3 chaps who walked in the former Collins Barracks wearing poppies. It took a lot of restraint. Scum bags is all those lads are.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 13, 2009, 05:22:37 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2009, 02:56:13 PM
Sorry - didn't realise you were joking.

FG wants a "Union" with Britain? References please.

If support of the present dispensation in the North defines Unionism, then we're nearly all Unionists (including Sinn Féin).

I don't want to get into a debate about it as it's no big deal. They are entitled to be Unionists if they want to. Unionism is not the dirty word many think it is. It's ok for FG to be Unionists as it is for them to be right wing. They don't need to be defended for wanting the 6 counties to remain under British control.

I don't think SF are Unionist. I'd say they're the opposite.

Or, in other words, you were talking bulldung.

Quote from: delboy on November 12, 2009, 11:40:09 PM

So your come back is that this is an internet forum and therefore you should be allowed to make all sorts of claims and not have to back them up with any evidence.
That's fair enough but without any evidence to back them up, they are essentially worthless.

So what you are saying is your opinion is the only one of worth? Good for you then  :)

Quote
That's very generous of you to say that some people don't wear the poppy as some sort of fingers up to you, and that its only the small minded Northern Unionists that do (is there any southern ones anyway? whats with adding the northern?) and a majority at that. Yet another mind reader on here that would give Derren Brown a run for his money, i swear the talent on here is wasted.

The point I am making is that first of all, in my experience of this time of year it's always the same people wearing one - not all northern unionists wear one - the ones who do, again in my experience, are using it as a badge of their Britishness
Is it more than a coincidence that most of those people who I have based my observations on would be from Loyalist working-class areas as opposed to comfy middle-class areas ? Unionists from middle-class areas tend not to bother - it's either they have no relatives killed in the wars or they couldn't give a toss and I reckon it's the latter - they are more concerned with paying the mortgage and making sure daddy plays golf on saturday mornings while mommy has afternoon tea in the church hall on sunday afternoons

Also, I am not trying to be insulting or be a WUM, just telling it like I see it

The rest of your post wasn't worth commenting on, just letting you know  :D

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Head in the sand

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 13, 2009, 04:00:59 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 01:41:38 PM
...or simply compare the wearing of poppies to that in England, how many and for the duration they are worn.
by contrast the poppy wearers in the north of Ireland would be seen to wear them for much longer duration, and on more of the population  !!
thats real life.
I'd have respect for those ex servicepeople in England but the badgewearing by too many in the north of Ireland wreck it for those who wear them for the 'right reasons'.

Haven't time to respond to all of my "avid readers"  ;), but I cannot let the above tripe pass.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/8333733.stm
As regards how long NI people wear their Poppy, it simply cannot  be any longer than those in GB, since the RBL starts selling them on the same date throughout the UK. This year it was 22nd October. Indeed, depending on what day/dates  Remembrance Sunday and Armistice Day fall (how many weekends etc), the onsale date is always  approximately 3 weeks before 11th November.

As for there being so many more (Unionist) Poppy wearers in NI than in GB, that is patent balls. Last year, 26 million  Poppies were sold throughout the UK. Therefore, unless the 1 million Unionists in NI were all buying a couple of dozen each, by the time you discount that proportion of the UK's 60 million inhabitants who are foreigners/immigrants etc, with no knowledge of or interest in the Poppy, then it must mean that near enough every other person in the UK bought one.

Of course, that prompts the question why it doesn't always seem that way. Partly this will be because many will only buy theirs on Remembrance Sunday or in the lead up to Armistice Day. Or speaking for myself, I bought one reasonably soon after they first went on sale, pinning it on the Lapel of my overcoat.
However, it and the coat hung on a peg in the hall for most of the next fortnight, since I was more concerned with the donation than the display, and so couldn't be bothered to switch it to whatever I was wearing any time I went out.

Anyhow, I understand and respect why many people decline to buy a Poppy, or even object to it: that should be their right, without comment or prejudice.

I just wish those of us who do choose to wear the Poppy were accorded the same freedom and respect, without others* casting their own petty and prejudiced motives on us, as though we were all "fenian-hating, f* ck-You Brits" etc,  solely preoccupied with flaunting our Britishness in the face of our neighbours.


* - When it comes to "others", you know (or should do) who you are, and after reading some of the bitter and vitriolic posts on this thread, the rest of us now know who you are, too... :o

Just because they are sold from the same date doesn't mean everyone wears them from the same date.. I may buy a poppy 3 weeks before remembrance Sunday but not put it on until that morning.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 13, 2009, 04:27:35 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

I dont have any problem with the poppy in England - as I know that all the people wearing them are genuine.

Remarkable stuff ::)  Really quite remarkable.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 13, 2009, 07:07:57 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 12, 2009, 11:40:09 PM

So your come back is that this is an internet forum and therefore you should be allowed to make all sorts of claims and not have to back them up with any evidence.
That's fair enough but without any evidence to back them up, they are essentially worthless.

So what you are saying is your opinion is the only one of worth? Good for you then  :)

Quote
That's very generous of you to say that some people don't wear the poppy as some sort of fingers up to you, and that its only the small minded Northern Unionists that do (is there any southern ones anyway? whats with adding the northern?) and a majority at that. Yet another mind reader on here that would give Derren Brown a run for his money, i swear the talent on here is wasted.

The point I am making is that first of all, in my experience of this time of year it's always the same people wearing one - not all northern unionists wear one - the ones who do, again in my experience, are using it as a badge of their Britishness
Is it more than a coincidence that most of those people who I have based my observations on would be from Loyalist working-class areas as opposed to comfy middle-class areas ? Unionists from middle-class areas tend not to bother - it's either they have no relatives killed in the wars or they couldn't give a toss and I reckon it's the latter - they are more concerned with paying the mortgage and making sure daddy plays golf on saturday mornings while mommy has afternoon tea in the church hall on sunday afternoons

Also, I am not trying to be insulting or be a WUM, just telling it like I see it

The rest of your post wasn't worth commenting on, just letting you know  :D

Where did i say that my opinion is of any more worth, i didn't, instead i highlighted that opinions without any evidence are simply that just opinions, you choose to misrepresent me, good for you  ;D (standard debating style on here it seems).

So you have downgraded it from 'a vast majority' to just working class protestants, have you ever thought of a career in social anthropology you seem to have a real knack of it, and if that doesn't work out you could always go back to the mind reading as a back up. 

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 13, 2009, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Head in the sand

Head up your arse!

Quote from: Hardy on November 13, 2009, 06:44:17 PM
Or, in other words, you were talking bulldung.

+1

Quote from: delboy on November 14, 2009, 12:37:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 13, 2009, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Head in the sand

Head up your arse!

think I've already pointed out that you have commandeered this tactic as well !

take a trip over to England next year girls and actually gt out of yer wee blinkered orange powered comfort zone !
you can spout your nonsense stats on here and lack of points or any valid context all you like - but if you cant even accept reality - or just keep lying to yourselves - then good luck !
:D
btw its this intransigent mind set that helping erode away the six counties back into re-unification !
;)

Brian Hayes

It was the Ulster Unionists, which rightly demanded that the East West relationship between both islands must be part of any new agreement. While the Assembly and the Executive are currently in abeyance, the British Irish Council continues to work on agreed programmes. I believe it is crucial that we in the Republic come to a new appreciation of the British connections, which are such a central part of our history

I wasn't surprised that it was the Ulster Unionist Party who would invite a Fine Gael politician to an event such as this. Despite public perception, there are many similarities between both our parties.

I can't see why you argue agaisn FG being unionists (with a small u). They make no bones about it. It's common knowledge.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 14, 2009, 08:47:45 AM

Quote from: delboy on November 14, 2009, 12:37:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 13, 2009, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Head in the sand

Head up your arse!

think I've already pointed out that you have commandeered this tactic as well !

take a trip over to England next year girls and actually gt out of yer wee blinkered orange powered comfort zone !
you can spout your nonsense stats on here and lack of points or any valid context all you like - but if you cant even accept reality - or just keep lying to yourselves - then good luck !
:D
btw its this intransigent mind set that helping erode away the six counties back into re-unification !
;)

Problem is the unionists want to be more British then the English themselves, it's an insecurity.
I seen two people on the 11th with poppies. 

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 13, 2009, 07:07:57 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 12, 2009, 11:40:09 PM

So your come back is that this is an internet forum and therefore you should be allowed to make all sorts of claims and not have to back them up with any evidence.
That's fair enough but without any evidence to back them up, they are essentially worthless.

So what you are saying is your opinion is the only one of worth? Good for you then  :)

Quote
That's very generous of you to say that some people don't wear the poppy as some sort of fingers up to you, and that its only the small minded Northern Unionists that do (is there any southern ones anyway? whats with adding the northern?) and a majority at that. Yet another mind reader on here that would give Derren Brown a run for his money, i swear the talent on here is wasted.

The point I am making is that first of all, in my experience of this time of year it's always the same people wearing one - not all northern unionists wear one - the ones who do, again in my experience, are using it as a badge of their Britishness
Is it more than a coincidence that most of those people who I have based my observations on would be from Loyalist working-class areas as opposed to comfy middle-class areas ? Unionists from middle-class areas tend not to bother - it's either they have no relatives killed in the wars or they couldn't give a toss and I reckon it's the latter - they are more concerned with paying the mortgage and making sure daddy plays golf on saturday mornings while mommy has afternoon tea in the church hall on sunday afternoons

A dig at working class Unionists with a side swipe at middle class ones based on your "research". ::)

IMO middle class Unionists are not too busy dealing with the mundane matters detailed in your ridiculous assertion to prevent them from remembering the war dead. The wearing of a poppy is an outward expression of this.

The super natural powers held by   some on this Board are quite staggering. ::)

Quote from: Olaf on November 14, 2009, 10:04:20 AM
A dig at working class Unionists with a side swipe at middle class ones based on your "research". ::)

IMO middle class Unionists are not too busy dealing with the mundane matters detailed in your ridiculous assertion to prevent them from remembering the war dead. The wearing of a poppy is an outward expression of this.

The super natural powers held by   some on this Board are quite staggering. ::)

I didn't know there were working class Unionists, I thought they were called loyalists.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 14, 2009, 10:09:02 AM

Quote from: Olaf on November 14, 2009, 10:04:20 AM
A dig at working class Unionists with a side swipe at middle class ones based on your "research". ::)

IMO middle class Unionists are not too busy dealing with the mundane matters detailed in your ridiculous assertion to prevent them from remembering the war dead. The wearing of a poppy is an outward expression of this.

The super natural powers held by   some on this Board are quite staggering. ::)

I didn't know there were working class Unionists,

There are.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 14, 2009, 09:09:23 AM

Brian Hayes

It was the Ulster Unionists, which rightly demanded that the East West relationship between both islands must be part of any new agreement. While the Assembly and the Executive are currently in abeyance, the British Irish Council continues to work on agreed programmes. I believe it is crucial that we in the Republic come to a new appreciation of the British connections, which are such a central part of our history

I wasn't surprised that it was the Ulster Unionist Party who would invite a Fine Gael politician to an event such as this. Despite public perception, there are many similarities between both our parties.

I can't see why you argue agaisn FG being unionists (with a small u). They make no bones about it. It's common knowledge.

I sincerely hope this is a wind-up and doesn't represent your idea of a sensible argument.

It's perfectly sensible. What's your issue with the fact that FG are unionists. It's hardly a new idea. Everything FG do in relation to the north begins with unionism. FG position is one of shut up and accept the status quo. That is unionism, the status quo is the Union and FG believe all is as it should be. If you have a different definition of FGs position or unionism then state it. I might agree.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 14, 2009, 08:47:45 AM

Quote from: delboy on November 14, 2009, 12:37:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 13, 2009, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Head in the sand

Head up your arse!

think I've already pointed out that you have commandeered this tactic as well !

take a trip over to England next year girls and actually gt out of yer wee blinkered orange powered comfort zone !
you can spout your nonsense stats on here and lack of points or any valid context all you like - but if you cant even accept reality - or just keep lying to yourselves - then good luck !
:D
btw its this intransigent mind set that helping erode away the six counties back into re-unification !
;)

Show me were i used your crap no substance 'debating' tactics, i didn't i like to have a bit of evidence to back up assertions, you seem to find this an annoying irrelevance to getting your rather warped viewpoint across though. Oh i forgot thats crap debating tactic number 3 on here, make the claim that you quashed/pointed out the flaw in someones argument on a previous post and hope that no one notices that in reality you've done no such thing.

Have you ever even tried to engage with someone wearing a poppy (certainly no evidence of you engaging with people of differing opinions on here thats for sure), oh i forgot you don't need to you have special psychic abilities that allow you to read peoples thoughts.
And and you have a few like minded prejudiced characters on an internet forum (a forum setup to discuss an organisation whose basic aim is the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland) that share your same view (such a surprise), so of course you must be right.
Who needs such trifling things such as information, facts or evidence when you have the backing of your like minded peers, thats definitely the way forward for the island, we need more visionaries like yourself.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 14, 2009, 10:41:33 AM
It's perfectly sensible. What's your issue with the fact that FG are unionists. It's hardly a new idea. Everything FG do in relation to the north begins with unionism. FG position is one of shut up and accept the status quo. That is unionism, the status quo is the Union and FG believe all is as it should be. If you have a different definition of FGs position or unionism then state it. I might agree.

If you did, I'd start to worry.

Good wind-up though.

Same time same place next year lads.  ;)

delboy, I have noted your obvious distaste for my opinions

I think yours is wrong too, for what it's worth

Quote from: delboy on November 14, 2009, 11:00:14 AM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 14, 2009, 08:47:45 AM

Quote from: delboy on November 14, 2009, 12:37:14 AM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 13, 2009, 07:11:44 PM

Quote from: delboy on November 13, 2009, 03:46:38 PM
So no evidence, opinion presented as fact (a few liked minded people holding the same view is not evidence) and an attempt to label me bigotted/sectarian, same old tatics, its amazing what passes for debate on here.
Have a good weekend, hope your visual senses aren't accosted by any nasty poppies, we wouldn't want it ruined would we  ;)

Head in the sand

Head up your arse!

think I've already pointed out that you have commandeered this tactic as well !

take a trip over to England next year girls and actually gt out of yer wee blinkered orange powered comfort zone !
you can spout your nonsense stats on here and lack of points or any valid context all you like - but if you cant even accept reality - or just keep lying to yourselves - then good luck !
:D
btw its this intransigent mind set that helping erode away the six counties back into re-unification !
;)

Show me were i used your crap no substance 'debating' tactics, i didn't i like to have a bit of evidence to back up assertions, you seem to find this an annoying irrelevance to getting your rather warped viewpoint across though. Oh i forgot thats crap debating tactic number 3 on here, make the claim that you quashed/pointed out the flaw in someones argument on a previous post and hope that no one notices that in reality you've done no such thing.

Have you ever even tried to engage with someone wearing a poppy (certainly no evidence of you engaging with people of differing opinions on here thats for sure), oh i forgot you don't need to you have special psychic abilities that allow you to read peoples thoughts.
And and you have a few like minded prejudiced characters on an internet forum (a forum setup to discuss an organisation whose basic aim is the strengthening of the National Identity in a 32 County Ireland) that share your same view (such a surprise), so of course you must be right.
Who needs such trifling things such as information, facts or evidence when you have the backing of your like minded peers, thats definitely the way forward for the island, we need more visionaries like yourself.

for all your pontificating and dodging, you still cannot argue against why proportionally way less people in England wear poppies in comparison to the north of Ireland - !!


yours is hardly a 'debating' technique !
:D
run along like good lad !
come back when you embrace reality !
(ie take yer head out of the sand/yer sphinter!! )
;)

Ah number four play the man and sidestep the issue, just number five to go, tell the poster they aren't worth talking to and exit stage door left, pretending that you won the point (i see stage one of tactic five is already being played).

Its a simple enough concept but i'll explain it again anyway, their is nothing to dodge, you haven't presented any evidence to back your assertion that poppies are worn disproportionally by the NI populace.

Nor have you presented any evidence to support your claim that the majority of peopling wearing them do it merely as a bigoted exercise to annoy you (egotistical or what).

You opinion is not fact no matter how much you wanted it to be accepted as such, your whole claim is based upon mere conjecture.

Come back with something, anything to support your claim and then perhaps your hollow claims that im dodging the issue may have a shred of validity.

Quote
Its a simple enough concept but i'll explain it again anyway, their is nothing to dodge, you haven't presented any evidence to back your assertion that poppies are worn disproportionally by the NI populace.

What evidence do you want?

YOu tell me why I walk down a busy city centre street in England and only see a handful of poppies but if I walked through particular areas in the North of Irleand they'd be everywhere?  Why is that?

You see tho'n banner on the Cop at Liverpool game this week of Bob Paisley and he was wearing a poppy on it?... Jesus wept!

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 14, 2009, 01:12:38 PM

Quote
Its a simple enough concept but i'll explain it again anyway, their is nothing to dodge, you haven't presented any evidence to back your assertion that poppies are worn disproportionally by the NI populace.

What evidence do you want?

YOu tell me why I walk down a busy city centre street in England and only see a handful of poppies but if I walked through particular areas in the North of Irleand they'd be everywhere?  Why is that?

Surely it wouldn't be beyond the imiganition of even the most simple dullard to do a bit of research on poppy sales and tell us how many are sold in NI and how that stacks up proportionally in terms of the UK as a whole (it says a lot when i have to tell you how to present your own argument).

As for the second contention that poppy wearing by the majority is a f**k you to non wearers,   I doubt you'll be able to prove that, but thats rather the point of im driving at.

Quote from: Hardy on November 14, 2009, 11:38:23 AM

Quote from: Zapatista on November 14, 2009, 10:41:33 AM
It's perfectly sensible. What's your issue with the fact that FG are unionists. It's hardly a new idea. Everything FG do in relation to the north begins with unionism. FG position is one of shut up and accept the status quo. That is unionism, the status quo is the Union and FG believe all is as it should be. If you have a different definition of FGs position or unionism then state it. I might agree.

If you did, I'd start to worry.

Good wind-up though.

Hardy, from a northern nationalist perspective, Fine Gael are the southern equivalent of Unionists.
That perception had been well earned by Fine Gael over a 35 year period.

If you want to nitpick and breakdown the policies of Unionist and Fine Gael then no,
one Gay Mitchell does not define FG party policy as regards to entry to the Commonwealth.

I'm not talking about perceptions and I'm not here to defend FG.

Zapatista made bald statements that are complete nonsense, including that FG were a Unionist party (later he changed it to "unionist with a small u") and "wanted a union with Britian". Pure shite. He then went on to say that support for the current arrangement on the North equalled Unionism. More shite. As I said, that definition would make SF, as participants in the arrangement, even  more Unionist than FG. 

And even if it were FG policy to seek entry to the commonwealth, that's still not Unionism. Or even unionism.

Anyway I'm finished - let FG speak for themselves, but I don't think you'll see them running anytime soon on a platform of re-formation of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Ireland.

Quote from: delboy on November 14, 2009, 01:26:45 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on November 14, 2009, 01:12:38 PM

Quote
Its a simple enough concept but i'll explain it again anyway, their is nothing to dodge, you haven't presented any evidence to back your assertion that poppies are worn disproportionally by the NI populace.

What evidence do you want?

YOu tell me why I walk down a busy city centre street in England and only see a handful of poppies but if I walked through particular areas in the North of Irleand they'd be everywhere?  Why is that?

Surely it wouldn't be beyond the imiganition of even the most simple dullard to do a bit of research on poppy sales and tell us how many are sold in NI and how that stacks up proportionally in terms of the UK as a whole (it says a lot when i have to tell you how to present your own argument).

As for the second contention that poppy wearing by the majority is a f**k you to non wearers,   I doubt you'll be able to prove that, but thats rather the point of im driving at.

Well we're not talking about how many is bought, we're talking about people wearing them.
Why do you think more people in the six counties wear them than in England?

He knows fine rightly why pints but will never admit it on here..
Thank f**k thats them put away for another 1211 months, although if 'our boys' continue to take a pasting in Helmand we could see them out and about maybe early Sept next year.

Quote from: Hardy on November 14, 2009, 03:02:43 PM
I'm not talking about perceptions and I'm not here to defend FG.

Zapatista made bald statements that are complete nonsense, including that FG were a Unionist party (later he changed it to "unionist with a small u") and "wanted a union with Britian". Pure shite. He then went on to say that support for the current arrangement on the North equalled Unionism. More shite. As I said, that definition would make SF, as participants in the arrangement, even  more Unionist than FG. 

And even if it were FG policy to seek entry to the commonwealth, that's still not Unionism. Or even unionism.

Anyway I'm finished - let FG speak for themselves, but I don't think you'll see them running anytime soon on a platform of re-formation of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Ireland.

I didn't expect ye to go on a rant from my initial post were I'd have try to explain why Fg are unionist.

From Saturday's Irish News


Illegal war is turning into a British institution Patrick Murphy
By Patrick Murphy


The war in Afghanistan is becoming a wonderfully British institution. Although the US is the lead partner, the war is increasingly portrayed by Gordon Brown as the latest chapter in that unending, romantic, political novel in which plucky Tommies fight the savage hordes in the desert sands, to uphold democracy, decency and that sense of fair play which only the British possess.

Better still, Mr Brown now claims that the war is to defend Britain from attack, citing the London bombings in 2005 as evidence of the threat. He has not admitted that these bombings were related to Britain's illegal invasion of Iraq. He therefore portrays the British as victims in Afghanistan, in that wonderful political art of aggrieved imperialism which has marked British foreign policy for 500 years.

Indeed if the Afghan war did not exist, the political and economic collapse of the Labour government might well require Mr Brown to invent a war, especially one with a 19th-century enemy like the Taliban.

The British certainly had a hand in inventing the modern state of Afghanistan. They initially invaded the region in 1839, becoming the first occupying force in Kabul in modern times. They then promptly became the first modern foreign army (all 16,000 of them, bar one) to be wiped out there, during the winter snows of 1842.

They returned in 1878 in the next chapter of what they called the Great Game – rivalry between Russia and Britain for control of the area. This time they established a puppet government that gave the British empire control over Afghan foreign policy. Despite the intervening years and changes in government, that is effectively where we are now.

Their latest puppet is Hamid Karzai, who 'won' the presidential election earlier this year by intimidation, bribery, ballot-rigging and other electoral fraud. When President Obama demanded a new election, Mr Karzai's main opponent refused to stand again. Mr Karzai was then declared the elected president of Afghanistan for the next five years.

This is the man for whom the uniformed youth of Britain arrive home dead, dying and maimed. But the government, and much of the media, are still on the side of 'our boys at the front'. They portray them as something close to the armed wing of the Last night of the Proms, the jingoistic classical concert at which Rule britannica is played amid flag-waving and apparent nostalgia for the days of the empire.

It is easy to advocate dying for Britain in the relative comfort of the Royal Albert Hall – especially when someone else is doing it for you. The claim that every dead soldier has died a heroic death is, understandably, comforting to the family of the bereaved. But while there may be heroic last moments in war, there is no heroic death – just human degradation.

By the time their bodies are returned to Britain the indignity of death has been

air-brushed from reality in the traditional funeral parades through the Wiltshire village of Wootton Bassett. It is a tradition that dates back all of two years, when renovations at RAF Brize Norton required flights to divert to RAF Lyneham. Wootton Bassett found itself on the main route to the Oxford hospital, where a coroner examines the bodies before releasing them to their families.

The media love this archetypal English village. They quote the assistant in Crump's, the butcher's shop, where they stop serving when the coffins pass: "We all stand outside the shop and take our hats off. They come out of the pubs and stand in silence. It is a very patriotic scene." (That's British patriotism – coming out of the pub. Irish patriots tend to go in the opposite direction.)

The pubs will empty again at 1.30pm on Monday when, according to the town council, another repatriation will take place.

It is important to respect the dead.

But it would appear at best unusual and at worst unethical to commemorate the dead without commenting on the living who send them to their deaths, especially in the cause of an undemocratic government.

By linking the Second World War with the illegal war in Iraq and the immoral war in Afghanistan in the same commemoration ceremonies, the British hope to cloak contemporary foreign policy with historical respectability.

Thus they use poppies and Wootton Bassett funerals to confer hero status on the recent dead, while denying the futility of the war in which they fight and the immorality of the politics for which they die.

Oh what a brutal, but beautifully British, war we have.

Quote from: red hander on November 15, 2009, 04:32:23 PM
Illegal war is turning into a British institution Patrick Murphy
By Patrick Murphy
...
The media love this archetypal English village. They quote the assistant in Crump's, the butcher's shop, where they stop serving when the coffins pass: "We all stand outside the shop and take our hats off. They come out of the pubs and stand in silence. It is a very patriotic scene." (That's British patriotism – coming out of the pub. Irish patriots tend to go in the opposite direction.)

:D

Hmmm, interesting to see who* played the entire 90 minutes at Centre Back for the "Rest of the World XI" in Reading last week:
http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10306~1874414,00.html

The game was in aid of these people:
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/



* - With a name like "Kenneth Edward Cunningham", d'ye think there's any chance he's a Prod?  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 02:39:59 PM
Hmmm, interesting to see who* played the entire 90 minutes at Centre Back for the "Rest of the World XI" in Reading last week:
http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10306~1874414,00.html

The game was in aid of these people:
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/



* - With a name like "Kenneth Edward Cunningham", d'ye think there's any chance he's a Prod?  ;)

I'm friendly with cunninghams who are prod and cath ...


anyhow so what !

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 03:02:15 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 02:39:59 PM
Hmmm, interesting to see who* played the entire 90 minutes at Centre Back for the "Rest of the World XI" in Reading last week:
http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10306~1874414,00.html

The game was in aid of these people:
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/



* - With a name like "Kenneth Edward Cunningham", d'ye think there's any chance he's a Prod?  ;)

I'm friendly with cunninghams who are prod and cath ...


anyhow so what !

"So what"?

Considering that certain posters such as yourself get so agitated by your fellow Irish men and women in Northern Ireland who choose to wear a Poppy etc, I'm surprised there wasn't more comment at a Southern Irishman like Cunningham, with 70 Republic of Ireland caps to his name, including as Captain, helping out a cause such as this one.

Some sort of a "Fcuk You!" message, perhaps?  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 04:28:29 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 03:02:15 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 02:39:59 PM
Hmmm, interesting to see who* played the entire 90 minutes at Centre Back for the "Rest of the World XI" in Reading last week:
http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10306~1874414,00.html
The game was in aid of these people:
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
* - With a name like "Kenneth Edward Cunningham", d'ye think there's any chance he's a Prod?  ;)

I'm friendly with cunninghams who are prod and cath ...
anyhow so what !

"So what"?

Considering that certain posters such as yourself get so agitated by your fellow Irish men and women in Northern Ireland who choose to wear a Poppy etc, I'm surprised there wasn't more comment at a Southern Irishman like Cunningham, with 70 Republic of Ireland caps to his name, including as Captain, helping out a cause such as this one.

Some sort of a "Fcuk You!" message, perhaps?  ;)

that doesnt make any sense - rather childish I would have thought

as per usual there is not one jot of a reason for posting that , no context, no point and again, so what if someone prod/cath/islamic/jewish or jedi wore a poppy !
its not the worst thing in the world - some may disagree and say that is shouldnt represent the current (illegal?) wars being picked by us and british against sitting (oil rich) ducks like iraq etc but
as you have pointed out that the poppy is to commemorate all the dead from all sides from all the wars etc (including the dead of the british/german/us/japanese/IRA volunteers/french partisans etc etc)
but the question still remains (rhetorical it is though) that why are there so many 'badge wearers' by proportion in th enorth of Ireland in comparison to the amount not wearing these millions of bought poppies in England ?
badge wearers indeed
You can quote wiki or noddy or even hand christian anderson  for your answer - though doubtless is will as usual contain no content or context !  :D

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM


that doesnt make any sense - rather childish I would have thought

as per usual there is not one jot of a reason for posting that , no context, no point and again, so what if someone prod/cath/islamic/jewish or jedi wore a poppy !
its not the worst thing in the world - some may disagree and say that is shouldnt represent the current (illegal?) wars being picked by us and british against sitting (oil rich) ducks like iraq etc but
as you have pointed out that the poppy is to commemorate all the dead from all sides from all the wars etc (including the dead of the british/german/us/japanese/IRA volunteers/french partisans etc etc)
but the question still remains (rhetorical it is though) that why are there so many 'badge wearers' by proportion in th enorth of Ireland in comparison to the amount not wearing these millions of bought poppies in England ?
badge wearers indeed
You can quote wiki or noddy or even hand christian anderson  for your answer - though doubtless is will as usual contain no content or context !  :D

Can I take it from that "stream of (un)consciousness" that you have no disagreement with, or even comment on, a Dubliner like Cunningham, who captained his country on a number of occasions, publicly supporting a cause like "Help For Heroes"?

Remarkable.  :o

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 04:50:06 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM


that doesnt make any sense - rather childish I would have thought

as per usual there is not one jot of a reason for posting that , no context, no point and again, so what if someone prod/cath/islamic/jewish or jedi wore a poppy !
its not the worst thing in the world - some may disagree and say that is shouldnt represent the current (illegal?) wars being picked by us and british against sitting (oil rich) ducks like iraq etc but
as you have pointed out that the poppy is to commemorate all the dead from all sides from all the wars etc (including the dead of the british/german/us/japanese/IRA volunteers/french partisans etc etc)
but the question still remains (rhetorical it is though) that why are there so many 'badge wearers' by proportion in th enorth of Ireland in comparison to the amount not wearing these millions of bought poppies in England ?
badge wearers indeed
You can quote wiki or noddy or even hand christian anderson  for your answer - though doubtless is will as usual contain no content or context !  :D

Can I take it from that "stream of (un)consciousness" that you have no disagreement with, or even comment on, a Dubliner like Cunningham, who captained his country on a number of occasions, publicly supporting a cause like "Help For Heroes"?

Remarkable.  :o

whats remarkable about people having their own thoughts and preferences - oh I forgot that this was not allowed up until recently in the apartheid-esque statelet you were brought up in - so how could you therefore understand any such notions and such freedom of choice !!
:D

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 05:21:01 PM

whats remarkable about people having their own thoughts and preferences - oh I forgot that this was not allowed up until recently in the apartheid-esque statelet you were brought up in - so how could you therefore understand any such notions and such freedom of choice !!
:D

There is nothing remarkable about people having their own thoughts, preferences and freedoms imo. After all, I am the person who earlier posted:


Anyhow, I understand and respect why many people decline to buy a Poppy, or even object to it: that should be their right, without comment or prejudice.
I just wish those of us who do choose to wear the Poppy were accorded the same freedom and respect, without others casting their own petty and prejudiced motives on us, as though we were all "fenian-hating, f* ck-You Brits" etc,  solely preoccupied with flaunting our Britishness in the face of our neighbours.

However my point was not to question whethet Cunningham should be allowed  to act as he does.

Rather it was to wonder what other Irish people think about a notable Irishman like him raising money and publicity for "Help For Heroes" - something closely related to the Poppy Appeal, which seems to attract so much scorn and criticism from so many people on this site.

Any thoughts. LB? Are you reluctant to criticise his choice for some reason? Or perhaps if you accept his choice, the contrast in the way you scorn other Irish people who make similar choices would show you up for being a hypocrite?

Having read most but not all of the thread I may be guilty of stating what has already been said. If so, beg pardon in advance.

My personal reason for not liking the poppy and the remembrance services is that for me it was just the winding up of the marching season and was used as a good excuse for unionists to have another parade.  Whether this is a true interpretation or not i imagine that it is a feeling shared by many nationalists and would be a strong contributing factor in their distaste for poppy wearing et al. Of course there is the distaste for the security forces who I believe oppressed our community in a none too subtle way during the recent war. Additionally when you have the BBC, for instance, forcing people to wear it, this also contributes to the resentment.

Having said that I would defend the right of any person or group to remember or honour their dead in a tasteful manner, and remembrance day is generally inoffensive and dignified, though on occasion it lapses into the realms of gunghoism from the commentators and is shamelessly used by politicians [on a UK wide basis] for their own ends. I would condemn outright the scumbags who desecrated the wreaths in Derry at the weekend, these people lack any decency, let alone a political agenda and i could guarantee that 99.9% of the population have no time for scum like these.

I have no problem with anyone who wears a poppy, or  attends a remembrance service, from whatever background. I do believe though that there are many people who wear it for all the wrong reasons, particularly in ni

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 05:21:01 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 04:50:06 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM


that doesnt make any sense - rather childish I would have thought

as per usual there is not one jot of a reason for posting that , no context, no point and again, so what if someone prod/cath/islamic/jewish or jedi wore a poppy !
its not the worst thing in the world - some may disagree and say that is shouldnt represent the current (illegal?) wars being picked by us and british against sitting (oil rich) ducks like iraq etc but
as you have pointed out that the poppy is to commemorate all the dead from all sides from all the wars etc (including the dead of the british/german/us/japanese/IRA volunteers/french partisans etc etc)
but the question still remains (rhetorical it is though) that why are there so many 'badge wearers' by proportion in th enorth of Ireland in comparison to the amount not wearing these millions of bought poppies in England ?
badge wearers indeed
You can quote wiki or noddy or even hand christian anderson  for your answer - though doubtless is will as usual contain no content or context !  :D

Can I take it from that "stream of (un)consciousness" that you have no disagreement with, or even comment on, a Dubliner like Cunningham, who captained his country on a number of occasions, publicly supporting a cause like "Help For Heroes"?

Remarkable.  :o

whats remarkable about people having their own thoughts and preferences - oh I forgot that this was not allowed up until recently in the apartheid-esque statelet you were brought up in - so how could you therefore understand any such notions and such freedom of choice !!
:D

Nurse! Nurse! He's off again!

BTW I think there's a massive case of egotism going on from some posters here - "themmus are doing that just to piss off ussuns"...

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM
but the question still remains (rhetorical it is though) that why are there so many 'badge wearers' by proportion in th enorth of Ireland in comparison to the amount not wearing these millions of bought poppies in England ?

I did a quick search on google to see if there was any evidence to back that up. Could you point me in the direction of said evidence or is your "evidence" merely anecdotal?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on November 13, 2009, 07:07:57 PM
Is it more than a coincidence that most of those people who I have based my observations on would be from Loyalist working-class areas as opposed to comfy middle-class areas ? Unionists from middle-class areas tend not to bother - it's either they have no relatives killed in the wars or they couldn't give a toss and I reckon it's the latter - they are more concerned with paying the mortgage and making sure daddy plays golf on saturday mornings while mommy has afternoon tea in the church hall on sunday afternoons

Also, I am not trying to be insulting or be a WUM, just telling it like I see it

Hmm, okay then...since you're imputing people's motivations, tell me why you think I might have gone to the cenotaph on Remembrance Sunday...

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 04:40:20 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 04:28:29 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 03:02:15 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 02:39:59 PM
Hmmm, interesting to see who* played the entire 90 minutes at Centre Back for the "Rest of the World XI" in Reading last week:
http://www.readingfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10306~1874414,00.html
The game was in aid of these people:
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/
* - With a name like "Kenneth Edward Cunningham", d'ye think there's any chance he's a Prod?  ;)

I'm friendly with cunninghams who are prod and cath ...
anyhow so what !

"So what"?

Considering that certain posters such as yourself get so agitated by your fellow Irish men and women in Northern Ireland who choose to wear a Poppy etc, I'm surprised there wasn't more comment at a Southern Irishman like Cunningham, with 70 Republic of Ireland caps to his name, including as Captain, helping out a cause such as this one.

Some sort of a "Fcuk You!" message, perhaps?  ;)

that doesnt make any sense -

as per usual there is not one jot of a reason for posting that , no context, no point and again, so what if someone prod/cath/islamic/jewish or jedi wore a poppy !
its not the worst thing in the world - some may disagree and say that is shouldnt represent the current (illegal?) wars being picked by us and british against sitting (oil rich) ducks like iraq etc but
as you have pointed out that the poppy is to commemorate all the dead from all sides from all the wars etc (including the dead of the british/german/us/japanese/IRA volunteers/french partisans etc etc)
but the question still remains (rhetorical it is though) that why are there so many 'badge wearers' by proportion in th enorth of Ireland in comparison to the amount not wearing these millions of bought poppies in England ?
badge wearers indeed
You can quote wiki or noddy or even hand christian anderson  for your answer - though doubtless is will as usual contain no content or context

???Your first sentence in this post as emboldened should really have been your last.

Its simple lads, if the Brits could manage not to start another war from this point on, in 60 years there will be f**k all need for these poppies and future generations can live on without this antiquated stupidity.

Also if British/Unionist culture could move on from anti-Catholicism and related marches and vendettas such as the 12'Th marches, the Apprentice Boys marches, the sectarian Guy Forkes Day or the belief that the Poppish Plot was real as opposed to the proven propaganda. Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried to bring down the Asquith government on the basis of "a most Catholic of conspiracies" i.e. claiming the Catholics controlled the upper echelons of British society (sounds similar to Germany, 1930's and the Jews!!!). Or maybe remove its sectarian model for head of state (one that actually discriminates against women, divorcees, non-Anglicans etc.)

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 05:21:01 PM

whats remarkable about people having their own thoughts and preferences - oh I forgot that this was not allowed up until recently in the apartheid-esque statelet you were brought up in - so how could you therefore understand any such notions and such freedom of choice !!
:D

There is nothing remarkable about people having their own thoughts, preferences and freedoms imo. After all, I am the person who earlier posted:


Anyhow, I understand and respect why many people decline to buy a Poppy, or even object to it: that should be their right, without comment or prejudice.
I just wish those of us who do choose to wear the Poppy were accorded the same freedom and respect, without others casting their own petty and prejudiced motives on us, as though we were all "fenian-hating, f* ck-You Brits" etc,  solely preoccupied with flaunting our Britishness in the face of our neighbours.

However my point was not to question whethet Cunningham should be allowed  to act as he does.

Rather it was to wonder what other Irish people think about a notable Irishman like him raising money and publicity for "Help For Heroes" - something closely related to the Poppy Appeal, which seems to attract so much scorn and criticism from so many people on this site.

Any thoughts. LB? Are you reluctant to criticise his choice for some reason? Or perhaps if you accept his choice, the contrast in the way you scorn other Irish people who make similar choices would show you up for being a hypocrite?

am pretty sure he is not one of the problematic badge wearers -so again yours is another non-point !

maybe all you ooo's (orange order ostriches  ;)) might compare the wearing/buying of poppies in England to the north of Ireland next year(11 months time) and make the realisation yourselves rather than have a load of posters on here point it out for you !
:D

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 16, 2009, 10:59:35 PM
Its simple lads, if the Brits could manage not to start another war from this point on, in 60 years there will be f**k all need for these poppies and future generations can live on without this antiquated stupidity.

Also if British/Unionist culture could move on from anti-Catholicism and related marches and vendettas such as the 12'Th marches, the Apprentice Boys marches, the sectarian Guy Forkes Day or the belief that the Poppish Plot was real as opposed to the proven propaganda. Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried to bring down the Asquith government on the basis of "a most Catholic of conspiracies" i.e. claiming the Catholics controlled the upper echelons of British society (sounds similar to Germany, 1930's and the Jews!!!). Or maybe remove its sectarian model for head of state (one that actually discriminates against women, divorcees, non-Anglicans etc.)

"Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried..."  :D

Meanwhile, in other news from Mayo, a strange contraption known as a "horseless carriage" was reported as being seen in the main street in Ballintubber. It was said by amazed witnesses to be proceeding at an estimated 7 miles per hour (Irish miles) and caused a large sow to have to shift from out of the gutter rather more quickly than you might expect. Mrs. O'Grady reported that her hens have since stopped laying.

And in Belderrig, the local Priest, Father Casey, stuck a man to the road for four hours, as penance for confessing that he had been entertaining impure thoughts of a woman - and him only married to her for 28 years! (See page 7 for an artist's impression of the scene)...

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 17, 2009, 09:59:07 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 05:21:01 PM

whats remarkable about people having their own thoughts and preferences - oh I forgot that this was not allowed up until recently in the apartheid-esque statelet you were brought up in - so how could you therefore understand any such notions and such freedom of choice !!
:D

There is nothing remarkable about people having their own thoughts, preferences and freedoms imo. After all, I am the person who earlier posted:


Anyhow, I understand and respect why many people decline to buy a Poppy, or even object to it: that should be their right, without comment or prejudice.
I just wish those of us who do choose to wear the Poppy were accorded the same freedom and respect, without others casting their own petty and prejudiced motives on us, as though we were all "fenian-hating, f* ck-You Brits" etc,  solely preoccupied with flaunting our Britishness in the face of our neighbours.

However my point was not to question whethet Cunningham should be allowed  to act as he does.

Rather it was to wonder what other Irish people think about a notable Irishman like him raising money and publicity for "Help For Heroes" - something closely related to the Poppy Appeal, which seems to attract so much scorn and criticism from so many people on this site.

Any thoughts. LB? Are you reluctant to criticise his choice for some reason? Or perhaps if you accept his choice, the contrast in the way you scorn other Irish people who make similar choices would show you up for being a hypocrite?

am pretty sure he is not one of the problematic badge wearers -so again yours is another non-point !

maybe all you ooo's (orange order ostriches  ;)) might compare the wearing/buying of poppies in England to the north of Ireland next year(11 months time) and make the realisation yourselves rather than have a load of posters on here point it out for you !
:D

So it's a problem if someone wears a Poppy to support the dead, injured and bereaved of myriad conflicts since the 1st World War, including the fight against Fascism etc (RBL).

However it's perfectly acceptable to raise money and publicity etc "Help For Heroes", which describes itself as an organisation "formed to help those who have been wounded in Britain's current conflicts" (NI, Iraq, Afghanistan etc):
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/

I'm still not sure why you are so reluctant to condemn Cunningham for his "treachery towards Mother Ireland" etc, but it doesn't half make you look a dickhead.  :D

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 17, 2009, 09:59:07 AM
maybe all you ooo's (orange order ostriches  ;)) might compare the wearing/buying of poppies in England to the north of Ireland next year(11 months time) and make the realisation yourselves rather than have a load of posters on here point it out for you !
:D

Afaiaa, there is not a single member of the Orange Order who posts on this site, so you're about as accurate in your attempt to smear people like me as you are with your bogus rant about the number of Poppies sold in NI versus GB etc.

Or didn't you notice when I pointed out that the RBL sold 26 million Poppies last year? Maybe a million Ulster Prods did buy two dozen each, but I doubt it somehow...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8333733.stm

It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on :)

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 01:23:18 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 17, 2009, 09:59:07 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 16, 2009, 07:40:07 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 16, 2009, 05:21:01 PM

whats remarkable about people having their own thoughts and preferences - oh I forgot that this was not allowed up until recently in the apartheid-esque statelet you were brought up in - so how could you therefore understand any such notions and such freedom of choice !!
:D

There is nothing remarkable about people having their own thoughts, preferences and freedoms imo. After all, I am the person who earlier posted:


Anyhow, I understand and respect why many people decline to buy a Poppy, or even object to it: that should be their right, without comment or prejudice.
I just wish those of us who do choose to wear the Poppy were accorded the same freedom and respect, without others casting their own petty and prejudiced motives on us, as though we were all "fenian-hating, f* ck-You Brits" etc,  solely preoccupied with flaunting our Britishness in the face of our neighbours.

However my point was not to question whethet Cunningham should be allowed  to act as he does.

Rather it was to wonder what other Irish people think about a notable Irishman like him raising money and publicity for "Help For Heroes" - something closely related to the Poppy Appeal, which seems to attract so much scorn and criticism from so many people on this site.

Any thoughts. LB? Are you reluctant to criticise his choice for some reason? Or perhaps if you accept his choice, the contrast in the way you scorn other Irish people who make similar choices would show you up for being a hypocrite?

am pretty sure he is not one of the problematic badge wearers -so again yours is another non-point !

maybe all you ooo's (orange order ostriches  ;)) might compare the wearing/buying of poppies in England to the north of Ireland next year(11 months time) and make the realisation yourselves rather than have a load of posters on here point it out for you !
:D

So it's a problem if someone wears a Poppy to support the dead, injured and bereaved of myriad conflicts since the 1st World War, including the fight against Fascism etc (RBL).

However it's perfectly acceptable to raise money and publicity etc "Help For Heroes", which describes itself as an organisation "formed to help those who have been wounded in Britain's current conflicts" (NI, Iraq, Afghanistan etc):
http://www.helpforheroes.org.uk/

I'm still not sure why you are so reluctant to condemn Cunningham for his "treachery towards Mother Ireland" etc, but it doesn't half make you look a d**khead.  :D

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 17, 2009, 09:59:07 AM
maybe all you ooo's (orange order ostriches  ;)) might compare the wearing/buying of poppies in England to the north of Ireland next year(11 months time) and make the realisation yourselves rather than have a load of posters on here point it out for you !
:D

Afaiaa, there is not a single member of the Orange Order who posts on this site, so you're about as accurate in your attempt to smear people like me as you are with your bogus rant about the number of Poppies sold in NI versus GB etc.

Or didn't you notice when I pointed out that the RBL sold 26 million Poppies last year? Maybe a million Ulster Prods did buy two dozen each, but I doubt it somehow...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8333733.stm

obv you dont like the fact that I wont condemn a man for exercising his right to freedom of choice !

also that you cannot comprehend that proportionally more wearers in the north of Ireland than wearers in England as viewed by more or less every person that has been in both places says it all !
I think you are more enid blyton than evil Gaafan ! :D

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 01:06:44 PM
Meanwhile, in other news from Mayo, a strange contraption known as a "horseless carriage" was reported as being seen in the main street in Ballintubber. It was said by amazed witnesses to be proceeding at an estimated 7 miles per hour (Irish miles) and caused a large sow to have to shift from out of the gutter rather more quickly than you might expect. Mrs. O'Grady reported that her hens have since stopped laying.

Surely you should put this in the "How you met your partner" thread.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 17, 2009, 02:03:30 PM
obv you dont like the fact that I wont condemn a man for exercising his right to freedom of choice !

No, I would actually commend  you for declining to condemn a man for exercising his freedom of choice to support injured British troops etc (via "Help For Heroes" in Cunningham's case).
The problem arises when you automatically condemn every person you see in NI who exercises his/her freedom of choice to support injured British troops etc (via the RBL, in Poppy-wearers' case).
I had hoped my earlier use of the term "hypocrite" might have been a sufficient clue...

Quote from: lynchbhoy on November 17, 2009, 02:03:30 PM
also that you cannot comprehend that proportionally more wearers in the north of Ireland than wearers in England as viewed by more or less every person that has been in both places says it all !
I think you are more enid blyton than evil Gaafan ! :D

I have pointed out that last year, there were 26 million Poppies sold in the UK i.e. to a an overall population of 60 million, of whom just 1.8 million live in NI.

AZOffally helpfully pointed out the following:

"In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.
Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share"

Both sets of statistics would indicate between them that there is not a huge disparity in Poppy-wearing and donating habits between NI and the rest of the UK.

Yet you completely ignore them, on the basis of what you personally allege to have observed - despite the fact that you almost certainly have never actually asked a single one why, where or how often they wear their Poppy...

And you  accuse me  of being Enid Blyton?  :D

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on :)

Where did you get these figures AZO??

Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2009, 05:13:00 PM
Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

apparantly so

for all the diversions that enid is harking back with, as per usual its (intentionally) missing the point that despite how many buy poppies, there are visualy more wearing them in the north of Ireland....but there has been nothing to actualy debunk that fact (as atributed by many observers on here)

Kevin Myers had an article in the Belfast Telegraph  a while back, giving off about how rememberance day was fast becoming a remeberance month.  Not like our Kev.

Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2009, 05:13:00 PM
Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

All depends whose anecdotes you're talking about. Certainly if it is someone like Lynchbhoy, who clearly feels he can discern a Poppy-wearer's motives without ever even having asked him/her, I wouldn't give it any credibility.

Myself, AZOffally and others have given relevant statistics to back our respective cases, you (and Lynchbhoy et alia) have given only "anecdotal evidence" [sic] to back yours.

Try harder.

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on November 17, 2009, 04:59:43 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on :)

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html)

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate :D One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting :D

Quote from: bennydorano on November 17, 2009, 06:16:56 PM
Kevin Myers had an article in the Belfast Telegraph  a while back, giving off about how rememberance day was fast becoming a remeberance month.  Not like our Kev.

Lest we forget: free speech is more than a load of poppycock

By Kevin Myers
Friday, 30 October 2009

They started wearing the poppy on the BBC last week, midway through October, nearly a month before Armistice Day. They also ambushed the British National Party leader Nick Griffin.

It was a nice juxtaposition: an organisation which purports to defend free speech then actually used it to set about the destruction of someone that liberal Britain utterly loathes. Moreover, woven throughout whatever passed as discussion on the programme was the assertion that Winston Churchill would not have supported the BNP.

Now if there have been any subsequent doubts in the media about Question Time, they've been on the lines of "why-give-this-man-the-oxygen-of-publicity?" So naturally, every commentator has begun his remarks by pre-emptively — rather pathetically — declaring how much they detest Nick Griffin and the BNP.

It was Nick Griffin who claimed that Churchill, were he alive today, would support the BNP. Oh no he wouldn't, puffed all Griffin's opponents from the conventional parties.

He wouldn't? Which Churchill was this? The imperialist who couldn't be prevented from joining in the Battle of Omdurman, where by his own account he shot several Muslims? Or the imperialist who, 30 years later, led the campaign to deny Indians self-government?

Churchill was the fine fellow who declared that it was "nauseating" to see Ghandi, "a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well-known in the Middle East, striding half-naked up the steps of the Vice-regal palace . . . to parley on equal terms with the representative of the King-Emperor".

So, would that same creature have welcomed the subsequent transformation of British cities by Indian immigrants? I somehow doubt it, especially as one of his arguments for Britain retaining India was that Britain was an overcrowded island that needed to trade with the subcontinent. Which is not quite the same thing as allowing much of the sub-continent to move into already crowded British cities.

But the appearance of the poppy in early October, the endless recitation of Churchill's name as an icon of modern liberalism, and the perverse form of "freedom of speech" whose sole purpose was simply to destroy Nick Griffin: they all suggest a critical cultural failure to understand the meaning of any of them. For if freedom of speech is merely seen as a means of doing down someone whom you don't like, then believe me that's what freedom of speech will sooner rather than later become.

The poppy is now an uncontaminated and largely uncontested symbol across Ireland. It is worn by people such as myself solely on the weekend of Remembrance Sunday. It has no other dimension or aspect to it.

But Tony Blair's loathsome New Labour introduced early poppy-wearing as a pre-emptive declaration of national piety: as in, "we might be Labour, but we still are proudly British", et cetera, et cetera. And of course, when a national morality competition is under way, what rival political leader dare refuse to participate? Moreover, it's not surprising that the dilution of Armistice Day into an entire season of meaningless poppy-wearing has coincided with the abandonment by English children of Guy Fawkes night in favour of Halloween.

Both developments were made possible by a general failure of public memory over important cultural events, combined with the creation of rival public rituals by either politicians or by a largely Americanised mass media.

Certainly no politician would have dared to debase the poppy if it still had an authentic currency amongst the broader population. Millions of men once knew that Armistice Day was Armistice Day; and peace only arrived on one day, not over an entire month.

So the modern British poppy is rather like the Christmas tree or the Easter egg. They are artefacts whose origins are so lost in the mists of time that they can easily be turned into tools of the marketing-men, either for commercial or political reasons.

And for New Labour, the symbol of Flanders now provides a useful promotional and populist ploy in the multi-cultural confusion of modern Britain — an uncertain land of poppydom and pappadum, where 'trick or treat' has replaced 'penny for the guy'.

So equally, freedom of speech could well be a casualty of this cultural confusion. For such freedom is not simply a weapon to destroy people you don't like — as demonstrated by the BBC's Question Time and a truly deplorably partisan performance by David Dimbleby. It is the opposite: it is to give people you detest a platform, provided that this freedom is not used to provoke hatred for any group.

And yes, it may insult and |offend people who do not like what they hear; but it must not set about the alienation and victimisation of any group.

This is a lesson we could all learn from. For if we allow freedom of speech primarily to damage people, why, that is like wearing a poppy to celebrate German dead; or celebrating Easter because two thieves were deservedly crucified, or Christmas because the inn was full and the innkeeper was happy.

For if you forget why you do things, then sooner or later you will forget the reason for being what you are.

isnt it about time we forgot the frigin wars? its almost 100 years ago since the first world war and we still have to put up with this every year. germany is a huge contributor to the eu yet every year we have the brits going over wearing poppys to remind them of the wars.

for what its worth the brits would be speaking german today if it wasnt for america  ;D

Quote from: magickingdom on November 17, 2009, 07:05:54 PM
isnt it about time we forgot the frigin wars? its almost 100 years ago since the first world war and we still have to put up with this every year. germany is a huge contributor to the eu yet every year we have the brits going over wearing poppys to remind them of the wars.

for what its worth the brits would be speaking german today if it wasnt for america   ;D

:D

And so would we.... :P

Quote from: magickingdom on November 17, 2009, 07:05:54 PM

for what its worth the brits would be speaking german today if it wasnt for america  ;D

Yanks are a great impact sub but they don't have a full 70 in them .

Quote from: magickingdom on November 17, 2009, 07:05:54 PM
isnt it about time we forgot the frigin wars? its almost 100 years ago since the first world war and we still have to put up with this every year.

The Poppy is not a commemoration, never mind a celebration, of various wars. Rather it is a commemoration of those who died in the various wars. Which is why, for example, 1st World War veteran Harry Patch, who came to detest war as a committed pacifist, still felt able to attend Remembrance Day services until he was 104 (and beyond?).

Quote from: magickingdom on November 17, 2009, 07:05:54 PM
germany is a huge contributor to the eu yet every year we have the brits going over wearing poppys to remind them of the wars.

Bullsh1t - what Brits "go over wearing poppys [sic] to remind them [Germans] of the wars"?  ::)

In fact, unlike a (seemingly depressingly high) number of Irish people, modern Germany demonstrates a highly mature attitude towards former enemies, as the following episode from as recently as last week demonstrates:
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/11/11/1257941160752/merkel-and-sarkozy-on-arm-001.jpg)
Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel take part in the Armistice Day ceremony at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris.
Then again, Germans are as aware as anyone else that the Allies liberated them  from the Nazis, too (no thanks to the neutral Irish Free State, btw)

Quote from: magickingdom on November 17, 2009, 07:05:54 PM
for what its worth the brits would be speaking german today if it wasnt for america  ;D

"for what it's worth"?  ::)
Seeing as it's neither witty, original or even relevant, that comment is like the rest of your post: worthless.

Question re the 'neutral' Irish Free State. Did Ireland intern German U-Boat crews and Luftwaffe crews that ended up in Ireland for the war? And at the same time did they release similar British and American servicemen?

Hardly neutral really.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 06:24:26 PM

Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2009, 05:13:00 PM
Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

All depends whose anecdotes you're talking about. Certainly if it is someone like Lynchbhoy, who clearly feels he can discern a Poppy-wearer's motives without ever even having asked him/her, I wouldn't give it any credibility.

Myself, AZOffally and others have given relevant statistics to back our respective cases, you (and Lynchbhoy et alia) have given only "anecdotal evidence" [sic] to back yours.

Try harder.

Well I've said on here what my experiences are from living in England and have yet to get a explanation as to why there are far more poppies on display in the North than you would ever see here.  To clarify, again, I'm not talking about sales I'm talking about poppies being on display. 
Have you any suggestions why this is the case or is is simply down to the fact that quite a few in NI want to rub the other sides noses in it?

i take your points eg but my point is that we'd all be in a better place if we let go of all these war commemorations, the provos have about 10 of them a year as no doubt do loyalists do we really need them for 3 weeks every year out of official britian. i could probably tolerate one day of it but its getting as long as Christmas now ffs. in america its called Veterans DAY and as someone whose dad served in the US army i'm quite happy with one day..

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 07:59:03 PM

Then again, Germans are as aware as anyone else that the Allies liberated them  from the Nazis, too (no thanks to the neutral Irish Free State, btw)

the only reason the fs was neutral was because of the british govs disregard for democracy in ireland

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 07:59:03 PM

Quote from: magickingdom on November 17, 2009, 07:05:54 PM
for what its worth the brits would be speaking german today if it wasnt for america  ;D

"for what it's worth"?  ::)
Seeing as it's neither witty, original or even relevant, that comment is like the rest of your post: worthless.

its witty, relevant and TRUE

I'm sure a few want to rub their noses in it but I'd also wager that the majority wear it for the 'proper reasons'.

Suspicion will never be lost in this country, that's for sure.

Quote from: DennistheMenace on November 17, 2009, 08:20:54 PM
I'm sure a few want to rub their noses in it but I'd also wager that the majority wear it for the 'proper reasons'.

Suspicion will never be lost in this country, that's for sure.

So is it just a case that unionists in the six counties are more patriotic and appreciative than the English?

I dont buy that.

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 06:24:26 PM

Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2009, 05:13:00 PM
Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

All depends whose anecdotes you're talking about. Certainly if it is someone like Lynchbhoy, who clearly feels he can discern a Poppy-wearer's motives without ever even having asked him/her, I wouldn't give it any credibility.

Myself, AZOffally and others have given relevant statistics to back our respective cases, you (and Lynchbhoy et alia) have given only "anecdotal evidence" [sic] to back yours.

Try harder.

On the contrary I have not given anecdotal evidence on this matter,
Also I am pretty sure AZoffally stated clearly that he had no statistics on the wearing of the poppy, do you?

Have you offered evidence to counteract the claims that more people in NI wear the poppy and for longer than the rest of the people in the UK?
I have no way to compare.
Although I do recall being in England around this time I have no memory of the poppy wearing, one way or another

Jaysus Lads. I'd forgive EG, but any fíor gael should know it's AZO-F-F-A-L-Y. 2 'F's 1 'L'. It's a county for Jaysus' sake :D

'In fact, unlike a (seemingly depressingly high) number of Irish people, modern Germany demonstrates a highly mature attitude towards former enemies, as the following episode from as recently as last week demonstrates'

Yeah, well maybe when our country is reunited too and the occupiers have left, then we can afford to be magnanimous to our enemy, you patronising p***k

Co. Azoffaly  ???

The Capitalisation should give you a clue.AZOffaly.

Arizona Offaly Cork  :D

Quote from: red hander on November 17, 2009, 09:54:46 PM
'
Yeah, well maybe when our country is reunited too and the occupiers have left, then we can afford to be magnanimous to our enemy, you patronising p***k

Who exactly  are these people?

Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 17, 2009, 10:18:27 PM
Arizona Offaly Cork  :D

Cork?

Dear Evil Genius,

Does Germany commemorate their dead from two world wars?

Kind regards

Orior

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 06:24:26 PM
... Myself, AZOffally and others have given relevant statistics to back our respective cases, you (and Lynchbhoy et alia) have given only "anecdotal evidence" [sic] to back yours.

Try harder.

Tut tut, as well as mangling an Irish county name, you're also mangling your (German) queen's latin: Do you mean et al., or inter alia?  :P

don't you live in Cork now?

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 06:54:11 PM

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on November 17, 2009, 04:59:43 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on :)

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html)

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate :D One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting :D

The figure you quoted was for the size of donations, not numbers of poppies worn.

So running with your interpretation, this would mean that Northern Irish donors could be giving more per donation than their counterparts in Great Britain. Which would fly in the face of people just wanting to wear poppies as a "f**k you symbol".

If someone just wanted to wear one to make a partisan political point, rather than to engage in remembrance and help the Poppy Appeal, then surely they would simply give an insignificant or token donation in order to simply get their hands on one.

There's my hypothesis anyway :)

Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 17, 2009, 10:55:43 PM
don't you live in Cork now?

No, Tipperary. Newport to be exact.

Quote from: MW on November 17, 2009, 11:32:48 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 06:54:11 PM

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on November 17, 2009, 04:59:43 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on :)

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html)

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate :D One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting :D

The figure you quoted was for the size of donations, not numbers of poppies worn.

So running with your interpretation, this would mean that Northern Irish donors could be giving more per donation than their counterparts in Great Britain. Which would fly in the face of people just wanting to wear poppies as a "f**k you symbol".

If someone just wanted to wear one to make a partisan political point, rather than to engage in remembrance and help the Poppy Appeal, then surely they would simply give an insignificant or token donation in order to simply get their hands on one.

There's my hypothesis anyway :)

I realise that MW. All I'm saying is I'm not arguing one way or the other. I've already said that there's no numbers to support a view on either side about the wearing of the poppy.

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 18, 2009, 09:14:18 AM

Quote from: MW on November 17, 2009, 11:32:48 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 06:54:11 PM

Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on November 17, 2009, 04:59:43 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on November 17, 2009, 01:26:47 PM
It's very hard to get stats on number of people wearing the Poppy, which is why 'evidence' is all anecdotal. Mybe this is an indication

In 2006, Northern Ireland raised £885,000 for the appeal. I don't know how much per poppy to give a number sold amount. Also I'm sure it includes non-poppy donations.
In 2006 the overall figure raised by the Legion was 27.7 million. So, the Northern Ireland amount was about 3.2 percent of funds.

Given the fact that NI makes up approx 3% of the population of the UK as well (office of National Statistics for the UK - 2009), it would appear that at face value NI is raising approx it's fair share.

Of course the Caveat here is that in real terms, it's more likely that 1.5% of the population is raising 3% of the funds, but I'm sure a similar deduction could be made for various other groups in the UK that would not buy the Poppy.

anyway, there's a few actual numbers for ye to cogitate on :)

Where did you get these figures AZO??

The figures for Poppies sold in 2006 comes from this http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html (http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-169972138.html)

However, EG, just to clarify something, I'm not making any case, I'm just trying to help contextualise the debate :D One could argue that with a significant amount of nationalists in NI, then actually the 1.5% of the population that would buy poppies in NI are buying twice as much as their 'fair share'.

But I'm not arguing either way. I just thought it was interesting :D

The figure you quoted was for the size of donations, not numbers of poppies worn.

So running with your interpretation, this would mean that Northern Irish donors could be giving more per donation than their counterparts in Great Britain. Which would fly in the face of people just wanting to wear poppies as a "f**k you symbol".

If someone just wanted to wear one to make a partisan political point, rather than to engage in remembrance and help the Poppy Appeal, then surely they would simply give an insignificant or token donation in order to simply get their hands on one.

There's my hypothesis anyway :)

I realise that MW. All I'm saying is I'm not arguing one way or the other. I've already said that there's no numbers to support a view on either side about the wearing of the poppy.

The figures referred to and indeed provided by the British Legion, do these not refer to the amount raised by the "Poppy Appeal" rather than the numbers of poppies sold?  There are many ways of making a donation to the Poppy Appeal other than "buying" a poppy (though I would guess this is where the bulk of donations come from at this time of year).  Also there is a separate appeal in Scotland (for some reason), so I'm not 100% sure whether any figures quoted include Scotland.  I would also think that the total figure includes a small number of people who lose their poppy and buy a second or third.  The RBL website gives the current "total" raised as £4.4 mill, given their target was £31 mill are they not as bit behind or maybe the website hasn't been updated for a while or they haven't counted the money in all the tins yet?

Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2009, 08:47:55 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 06:24:26 PM

Quote from: Main Street on November 17, 2009, 05:13:00 PM
Anecdotal evidence points to more people wear the poppy in NI and for a longer period.
Is that disputed?

All depends whose anecdotes you're talking about. Certainly if it is someone like Lynchbhoy, who clearly feels he can discern a Poppy-wearer's motives without ever even having asked him/her, I wouldn't give it any credibility.

Myself, AZOffally and others have given relevant statistics to back our respective cases, you (and Lynchbhoy et alia) have given only "anecdotal evidence" [sic] to back yours.

Try harder.

On the contrary I have not given anecdotal evidence on this matter,
Also I am pretty sure AZoffally stated clearly that he had no statistics on the wearing of the poppy, do you?

Have you offered evidence to counteract the claims that more people in NI wear the poppy and for longer than the rest of the people in the UK?
I have no way to compare.
Although I do recall being in England around this time I have no memory of the poppy wearing, one way or another

thats it in a nutshell !
I think you will find that enid gaafan DOES know this and is merely as per usual trying to divert the spotlight away from this.

I think mw is misinterpreting his own point too - if he is saying that proportionally more in the north of Ireland buy poppies than in England - then its another tidbit of evidence of 'badge wearing' !
why do so many in the north of Ireland wear/buy poppies when those in England dont !!!
:D

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 07:59:03 PM
Seeing as it's neither witty, original or even relevant, that comment is like the rest of your post: worthless.

Really?  I would have thought that such a pansophical sage of history as you would in fact have realised that there was more than an iota of truth in his comment.

Gobshite, the fact is, if the poppy was worn as a commemoration of the two world wars rather than as a reminder to many Irish people in the wee six of the war crimes committed by the UDR and the RUC masquerading as loyalist "terrorists" then perhaps we would grant you your wee parade.  But that cannot be until such times as acknowledgement of state terrorism is confronted.

Quote from: Evil Genius link=topic=14261.msg684770#msg684770
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/11/11/1257941160752/merkel-and-sarkozy-on-arm-001.jpg)
Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel take part in the Armistice Day ceremony at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris.

What's the difference between what Frau Merkel is up to in your photo and what the gentleman (an Irishman I believe) in this photo is doing?

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38119000/jpg/_38119468_maskey150.jpg)

Perhaps you could also tell me exactly who you think the gentleman (known simply as Torrens to erstwhile gaaboard poster 'the dowie') in the middle of the photo below is commerating.

(http://assets.u.tv/galleries/7/7/7/777/290x160/Crop/knighttorrens.jpg)

Bear in mind that the picture was taken as the individual was being led into court to be charged with mass murder, including that of a former UDR man.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on November 18, 2009, 11:07:08 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius link=topic=14261.msg684770#msg684770
(http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/11/11/1257941160752/merkel-and-sarkozy-on-arm-001.jpg)
Nicolas Sarkozy and Angela Merkel take part in the Armistice Day ceremony at the Arc de Triomphe in Paris.

What's the difference between what Frau Merkel is up to in your photo and what the gentleman (an Irishman I believe) in this photo is doing?

(http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/38119000/jpg/_38119468_maskey150.jpg)

Perhaps you could also tell me exactly who you think the gentleman (known simply as Torrens to erstwhile gaaboard poster 'the dowie') in the middle of the photo below is commerating.

(http://assets.u.tv/galleries/7/7/7/777/290x160/Crop/knighttorrens.jpg)

Bear in mind that the picture was taken as the individual was being led into court to be charged with mass murder, including that of a former UDR man.

Trust the French to come up with a trendy purple poppy!

Quote from: Evil Genius on November 17, 2009, 01:06:44 PM

Quote from: mayogodhelpus@gmail.com on November 16, 2009, 10:59:35 PM
Its simple lads, if the Brits could manage not to start another war from this point on, in 60 years there will be f**k all need for these poppies and future generations can live on without this antiquated stupidity.

Also if British/Unionist culture could move on from anti-Catholicism and related marches and vendettas such as the 12'Th marches, the Apprentice Boys marches, the sectarian Guy Forkes Day or the belief that the Poppish Plot was real as opposed to the proven propaganda. Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried to bring down the Asquith government on the basis of "a most Catholic of conspiracies" i.e. claiming the Catholics controlled the upper echelons of British society (sounds similar to Germany, 1930's and the Jews!!!). Or maybe remove its sectarian model for head of state (one that actually discriminates against women, divorcees, non-Anglicans etc.)

"Or as recent as World War I when Lloyd George tried..."  :D

Meanwhile, in other news from Mayo, a strange contraption known as a "horseless carriage" was reported as being seen in the main street in Ballintubber. It was said by amazed witnesses to be proceeding at an estimated 7 miles per hour (Irish miles) and caused a large sow to have to shift from out of the gutter rather more quickly than you might expect. Mrs. O'Grady reported that her hens have since stopped laying.

And in Belderrig, the local Priest, Father Casey, stuck a man to the road for four hours, as penance for confessing that he had been entertaining impure thoughts of a woman - and him only married to her for 28 years! (See page 7 for an artist's impression of the scene)...

Just trying to deflect from my post as you know all of what I said was true.

We use kilometers, as in metric in Ireland not the archaic Imperial system. Yet another thing backwards and dated about Britain.

Mrs. O'Grady must be a blow in, as its not a very Mayo name to be honest. Google Earth must be a great thing to help you find random places in Mayo.

Quote from: Zapatista on November 14, 2009, 03:40:04 PM

Quote from: Hardy on November 14, 2009, 03:02:43 PM
I'm not talking about perceptions and I'm not here to defend FG.

Zapatista made bald statements that are complete nonsense, including that FG were a Unionist party (later he changed it to "unionist with a small u") and "wanted a union with Britian". Pure shite. He then went on to say that support for the current arrangement on the North equalled Unionism. More shite. As I said, that definition would make SF, as participants in the arrangement, even  more Unionist than FG. 

And even if it were FG policy to seek entry to the commonwealth, that's still not Unionism. Or even unionism.

Anyway I'm finished - let FG speak for themselves, but I don't think you'll see them running anytime soon on a platform of re-formation of the United Kingdom Of Great Britain And Ireland.

I didn't expect ye to go on a rant from my initial post were I'd have try to explain why Fg are unionist.

Fine Gael are NOT unionists, they ARE NATIONALISTS, 
Achieved Irish Independence,
Declared the Irish Republic,
END OF ARGUMENT

Anything else is just guttersnipe slander.