From what I can gather from this, the Vatican has finally given up previous ecumenical moves to settle Church differences in favour of welcoming Anglicans (and their priests) into the Catholic Church. Once there they will be able to retain their own 'Anglican ehtos' a bit like the Eastern rite churches that are currently in communion with Rome - a church within a church if you like. It's actually a fairly revolutionary move by the Pope, on a par with the freeing of the Tridentine Mass with his 'Motu Proprio' a few years ago. He is welcoming the traditionalists back on the one hand and now what could be described as the liberals on the other. Some estimate there are about half a million mostly English Anglicans ready to move straight over into the Catholic Church. Needless to say the Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams (and presumably the English Queen) is not very happy -- the letter he has sent to his bishops is below the story below. Can't see too many northern CofI moving over but will probably be quite a few in the south.
Vatican welcome to Anglicans boldest move since Reformation
The Vatican on Tuesday opened the way for Anglican communities to switch allegiance en masse. Hundreds of thousands of Anglicans angry over the church's liberal stance on women and gays may convert.
Vatican City - The Vatican launched an historic initiative Tuesday to make it easier for disgruntled Anglicans worldwide to join the Roman Catholic Church. The church said the move was not a swipe at the Anglicans but it could nevertheless result in hundreds of thousands of churchgoers unhappy with openly gay and female clerics defecting to Rome.
Pope Benedict XVI gave his approval to a new framework to bring back into the fold Anglicans who oppose their church's liberal stance on gay marriage and the ordination of women priests and gay bishops while allowing them to retain some of their separate religious traditions.
The move comes nearly 500 years after Henry VIII's desire for a divorce led him to break with Rome and proclaim himself as the head of the newly formed Church of England in 1534. The framework is the Vatican's most sweeping gesture toward any schismatic church since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century and the Thirty Years' War that followed it in the 17th century. That war ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648, which acknowledged the right of monarchs rather than the Vatican to determine their national faiths, prompting Pope Innocent X to declare the document "null, void, invalid, iniquitous, unjust, damnable, reprobate, inane, empty of meaning and effect for all time."
Over the centuries, relations between the various Christian faiths have improved and both Anglican and Catholic leaders were at pains on Tuesday to say that warming relations between the two churches will not be affected by the new plan. But both churches have been struggling to retain adherents in recent years, particularly in the developed world, with poorer countries their only growth spots.
Individual Anglicans have long been free to convert to Catholicism, as former British prime minister Tony Blair did after leaving office in 2007. But the so-called Apostolic Constitution will enable entire Anglican communities to transfer their allegiance en masse.
The pope was responding to "numerous requests to the Holy See from groups of Anglican clergy and faithful in various parts of the world who want to enter into full and visible communion" with the Catholic Church, Cardinal William Joseph Levada told a news conference. He is the American head of the Vatican's doctrinal body.
Vatican officials declined to say how many of the world's 77 million Anglicans might take the opportunity to convert to Catholicism.
Anglican conservatives
The Traditional Anglican Communion, a vocal group of 400,000 conservatives who split from the Anglican Communion in 1991, are expected to move towards Rome.
"We have had requests from large groups, in the hundreds," said Cardinal Levada. "If I had to say a number of bishops, I would say it's in the twenties or thirties."
His American colleague, Archbishop Joseph Di Noia, Secretary of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, said after the press conference that he believed the number of bishops ready to convert was closer to 50.
They would come from the United States, Australia, and the island nations of the Pacific, he said.
Cardinal Levada was asked whether the Vatican's new policy weakened the Anglican Church's standing.
"I would not dare to make a comment on that. After the long years of the British Empire, and the work of Anglican missionaries, the Anglican Communion is a diverse and very varied worldwide communion."
Under the new constitution, married Anglican priests will be allowed to enter the Catholic Church but will not be ordained as bishops.
Will African Anglicans move?
The initiative was in response to years of lobbying by Anglicans who had become disenchanted with Anglican liberalism, a dissatisfaction which reached a crisis point in 2004 when the Episcopal Church in the United States ordained the first openly gay bishop, Gene Robinson of New Hampshire.
That move and other liberal shifts, such as a Canadian diocese's willingness to bless same-sex unions, have been fiercely opposed by more conservative Anglicans, particularly in Africa.
The new framework was announced simultaneously in Rome and in London, where the head of the Church of England, Archbishop of Canterbury Rowan Williams, said he did not see the Vatican move as "an act of aggression." (Read a Monitor profile of the archbishop here.)
Neither was it a vote of no confidence in the Anglican Church, he said, but a sign of maturity and understanding between the two faiths.
But Vatican commentators described it as a blow to the Anglican Communion. "For people who harbor the vision of Anglican unity, this will be a great disappointment," said Vatican analyst Francis X Rocca, of the Religion News Service.
"But it may also help to let off steam within the Anglican Church. If disaffected traditionalists leave, then they will lower the tensions over issues like gay marriage and women clergy."
Vatican expert John Allen of the National Catholic Reporter wrote in a blog post that while the opening by the Vatican had long been rumored, some Catholics feared "potentially negative repercussions in relations with the Anglican Communion – whose leadership might see it as 'poaching.'"
Rowan Williams letter:
The Vatican has announced today that PopeBenedict XVI has approved an 'Apostolic Constitution' (a formal papal decree) which will make some provision for groups of Anglicans (whether strictly members of continuing Anglican bodies or currently members of the Communion) who wish to be received into communion with the See of Rome in such a way that they can retain aspects of Anglican liturgical and spiritual tradition.
I am sorry that there has been no opportunity to alert you earlier to this; I was informed of the planned announcement at a very late stage, and we await the text of the Apostolic Constitution itself and its code of practice in the coming weeks. But I thought I should let you know the main points of the response I am making in our local English context– in full consultation with Roman Catholic bishops in England and Wales – in the hope of avoiding any confusion or misrepresentation.
Whilst they may affect some or many anglicans in England or Ireland it wil have a much greater affect in Africa where the Anglicans there were threatening to split away from the overall church over the issue of ( openly ) Gay priests and bishops. Numbers of potential converts in Africa much higher than in England or Ireland.
On a side note I may be mistaken but I thought that when the woman priests issue came to the fore in the anglican church a large number of anglicans including some married vicars crossed over to the catholic church.
Coincidentally I have been to a number of Anglican services, mainly funerals and weddings and found the differences to Catholic services to be very minor. If given a choice between a tridentine mass and an anglican service I would go for the anglican one.
Quote from: slow corner back on October 20, 2009, 09:31:14 PM
Whilst they may affect some or many anglicans in England or Ireland it wil have a much greater affect in Africa where the Anglicans there were threatening to split away from the overall church over the issue of ( openly ) Gay priests and bishops. Numbers of potential converts in Africa much higher than in England or Ireland.
On a side note I may be mistaken but I thought that when the woman priests issue came to the fore in the anglican church a large number of anglicans including some married vicars crossed over to the catholic church.
Coincidentally I have been to a number of Anglican services, mainly funerals and weddings and found the differences to Catholic services to be very minor. If given a choice between a tridentine mass and an anglican service I would go for the anglican one.
I think some individual married Anglican priests did move across but this could see whole congregations come across en mass.
Anglicans also have a number of different services including a High Mass with a Tridentine style liturgy. In fact I work with a Sri Lankan Anglican who goes regulary to the Catholic Tridentine Mass.
I wont be at any tridentine mass, anglican or catholic
Quote from: slow corner back on October 20, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
I wont be at any tridentine mass, anglican or catholic
Not even for a wedding or funeral?
I think this is great news. There were a lot of prayers said in this country for the conversion of Heathen England. Nice to know they're kicking in at last. The race is not always to the swift ... ;)
Quote from: slow corner back on October 20, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
I wont be at any tridentine mass, anglican or catholic
JS Bach thought enough of the tridentine mass to write music for one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2uppzm7dPE
All the more remarkable when you consider he was Luthern himself. But each to his own, of course.
Leonard Bernstein wrote a mass too, but it's not as impressive as Bach's. Of course, that would have been post Vatican II, so maybe he didn't have as much to work with: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFtEdx6j3x4
Not forgetting our own Sean O'Riada. I think 'Ag Criost an Siol' comes from his Mass.
Quote from: slow corner back on October 20, 2009, 10:00:12 PM
I wont be at any tridentine mass, anglican or catholic
I am puzzled
Can I ask why?
Although the Anglican Church is liberal, surely the fundamentals of any reformed church, such as opposition to transubstantiation, idolatry, Marian worship etc. outweigh issues with woman and gay priests?
I can't speak for Anglicans Tony so I could well be wrong on this however, I am led to believe that the issues of women priests and gay priests are what caused the schism in the Anglican Church. In regard to Marian worship etc, you are spot on. As far as I see, the details that have come out would lead to Anglicans being able to retain these values under the banner of the entire Catholic Church under these new arrangements. Anglican services are very similar to the Catholic Mass, they even have a form of communion.
I should also add, the Anglicans were Catholics before that Henry VIII character, they are just coming back into the fold now :)
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 20, 2009, 10:42:29 PM
I can't speak for Anglicans Tony so I could well be wrong on this however, I am led to believe that the issues of women priests and gay priests are what caused the schism in the Anglican Church. In regard to Marian worship etc, you are spot on. As far as I see, the details that have come out would lead to Anglicans being able to retain these values under the banner of the entire Catholic Church under these new arrangements. Anglican services are very similar to the Catholic Mass, they even have a form of communion.
I should also add, the Anglicans were Catholics before that Henry VIII character, they are just coming back into the fold now :)
I've been to a few CofI services and they weren't far off what I'd be used to. A Free P in our class at Queen's used to call a CofI fella "half a hun"!
Interesting story this with many complex ramifications, so its probably better to say nothing till we hear more. However one immediate question which springs to mind is why the same courtesy was refused to Orthodox congregations who wished for closer communion with Rome while retaining their religious and cultural traditions, which are perfectly in accord with catholicism
I'm a regular with Mrs d at Christ Church in Waterford and the standard communion service is deliberately based on the RC mass. She's always stumbling over the Nicene Creed whereas I know it off by heart.
I wonder whether this move will be counterproductive. Sections of the Anglican communion were already moving towards Rome and actions like this are likely to bring up previously dormant feelings of tribalism.
The Nicene creed is the long one isn't it. It's the Apostles Creed that's shorter or am I worng?
Quote from: Farrandeelin on October 21, 2009, 10:05:44 AM
The Nicene creed is the long one isn't it. It's the Apostles Creed that's shorter or am I worng?
You are right
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 11:38:30 AM
Not sure if I agree with this. While members of the deformed churches should always be welcomed into the one true holy apostolic faith, individually or en masse, it can surely only be on condition of complete adherence to catholic doctrine, and no other, and acceptance of the infallibility and supreme authority of the Pope, and only the Pope, in all matters theological.
Christ converts to Islam (http://www.theonion.com/content/node/29540)
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 11:38:30 AM
Not sure if I agree with this. While members of the deformed churches should always be welcomed into the one true holy apostolic faith, individually or en masse, it can surely only be on condition of complete adherence to catholic doctrine, and no other, and acceptance of the infallibility and supreme authority of the Pope, and only the Pope, in all matters theological.
As opposed to who? God?
Although I agree with your sentiment. How can you have a halfway house - you are in or out. Is what someone referred to a while back as an "a la carte Catholic"?
There are many different traditions already within the Catholic Church from the 20 odd Eastern Churches who have a different liturgy from the Western Church to the various traditionalists who use various forms of the pre Vatican II versions of the Latin Rite. Many of these would already see the majority Latin Rite most commonly in use in Catholic churches in the West as a 'halfway house', Protestant in character (happy clappy my wife calls it). My point being that the Catholic Church is already a very wide communion and there is room for the Anglicans.
I just want to know when we'll be getting all our Churches back and will they still be allowed to fly the union jack from the spire in Lurgan. ;D
Quote from: Donagh on October 21, 2009, 01:06:01 PM
I just want to know when we'll be getting all our Churches back and will they still be allowed to fly the union jack from the spire in Lurgan. ;D
We're still claiming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_Cathedral,_Dublin#Roman_Catholicism) Christ Church in Dublin.
Quote from: deiseach on October 21, 2009, 01:08:37 PM
Quote from: Donagh on October 21, 2009, 01:06:01 PM
I just want to know when we'll be getting all our Churches back and will they still be allowed to fly the union jack from the spire in Lurgan. ;D
We're still claiming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_Church_Cathedral,_Dublin#Roman_Catholicism) Christ Church in Dublin.
Deiseach I always wondered why it was called the Pro-Cathedral, thanks for that.
Quote from: Donagh on October 21, 2009, 01:06:01 PM
I just want to know when we'll be getting all our Churches back and will they still be allowed to fly the union jack from the spire in Lurgan. ;D
Just because they rejoin the Catholic family doesn't mean that it changes their politics, sure isn't Tony Blair & Princess Micheal Queen, Liz arse licking Taigs
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 11:38:30 AM
Not sure if I agree with this. While members of the deformed churches should always be welcomed into the one true holy apostolic faith, individually or en masse, it can surely only be on condition of complete adherence to catholic doctrine, and no other, and acceptance of the infallibility and supreme authority of the Pope, and only the Pope, in all matters theological.
Tony it would make more sense for you to understand what the infallibility of the Pope really means and when it has been applied historically before you stamp that on as a requirement for anyone to join the Roman Catholic Church.
I welcome everyone to the Church. There will never be one true Catholic church until we find ways to build bridges with other denominations. I would be big fan of getting people in the door first and welcoming them and allowing them to learn and grow over time rather than your proposed sign this or else decree......
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 03:13:25 PM
The danger with that scenario is that if they are not committed to the one true faith entirely prior to conversion, they may agitate from within thus diluting the faith, leading ultimately to the incorporation of many of the current falsehoods associated with the various protestant sects.
And what would these falsehoods be Tony? Please make sure you know your facts before coming back with anything and are not just spouting something you have cut and pasted from an apologetic website....
I am convinced that although there may be some internal struggles with certain areas of doctrine we can learn a lot from our Anglican friends and grow as a Church.
Quote from: The Iceman on October 21, 2009, 03:01:31 PM
Tony it would make more sense for you to understand what the infallibility of the Pope really means and when it has been applied historically before you stamp that on as a requirement for anyone to join the Roman Catholic Church.
Learn something new? Chance'd be a fine thing
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 03:42:59 PM
Truth is truth as laid down by Jesus and the Apostles, whch forms the core of catholicism, there is nothing new to be learned from anyone, convert or otherwise, in that respect.
If you are talking about being enriched by the experience of meeting new and diverse people, yes I agree, but that happens day and daily, in every facet of life.
Nothing new to be learned from anyone? Ha. I think therein lies all your problems......
Tony the Roman Catholic Church has changed dramatically since the times of Jesus and the Disciples. We have made, broken and changed our own "truths" throughout the centuries. If you hold onto purely "Biblical" truths then you deny the pillar and foundation of the truth - the Church, not the Bible.
I suspect, as usual, you make ill-informed comments laced with some truth in the hope that someone will take offense and that others will not be knowledgeable enough to challenge.
New "truths" or better understanding can come from converts and from "cradle" Catholics
How many theologians can dance on the head of a pin as they create "truths"?
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 04:52:37 PM
The core truths have not changed however.
Basically I am saying simply that all converts should be accepted on condition that they subscribe fully and exclusively to the tenets of Roman Catholicism.
What you seem to be implying is that the same converts can bring certain elements of the erroneous faiths they have hitherto adhered to and that these can be added to, or substitute for, certain Roman Catholic doctrines. That will inevtiably lead to at best a dilution of the truth or at worst a new further so called reformed "church", which is a mishmash of all the beliefs, erroneous or otherwise, of all the denominations.
I think the Church will continue to rely on the Holy Spirit for direction not the all knowing Tony Fearon.
If the Church decides to open its gates to Anglicans or whoever else it decides then as a Roman Catholic you must accept that Tony. Otherwise you would only be contradicting yourself.......
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 01:52:18 PM
This means that the famous Church in Drumcree (CofI) will become a catholic church again ;D
I think you'll find that the CofI has always deemed itself to be "catholic", since the word merely means "worldwide", or "universal".
Consequently, when Anglicans recite the Nicene Creed at Confirmation, for instance, they include the line:
"We believe in one holy, catholic and apostolic Church"http://www.cofe.anglican.org/faith/anglican/
Now
Roman Catholic - that's something rather more specific and I suspect the congregation at Drumcree might have something to say about moving over to that particular sect. ;)
P.S. Seeing as you're a notable Apostate yourself, who forsook the one true faith of the IFA ("Original and Best"), to jump on the splitters' bandwagon of the FAI, I'd be a little less hard on "converts" myself, if I were you... :D
Quote from: The Iceman on October 21, 2009, 04:57:42 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 04:52:37 PM
The core truths have not changed however.
Basically I am saying simply that all converts should be accepted on condition that they subscribe fully and exclusively to the tenets of Roman Catholicism.
What you seem to be implying is that the same converts can bring certain elements of the erroneous faiths they have hitherto adhered to and that these can be added to, or substitute for, certain Roman Catholic doctrines. That will inevtiably lead to at best a dilution of the truth or at worst a new further so called reformed "church", which is a mishmash of all the beliefs, erroneous or otherwise, of all the denominations.
I think the Church will continue to rely on the Holy Spirit for direction not the all knowing Tony Fearon.
If the Church decides to open its gates to Anglicans or whoever else it decides then as a Roman Catholic you must accept that Tony. Otherwise you would only be contradicting yourself.......
Tony, if there is any dilution of the Church you could become Pope of the one true Church. I'm sure Mrs. F would enjoy the reprieve.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 04:02:04 PM
I meant this strictly in connection with the fundamental truth of Roman Catholicism which derives directly from the Apostles.
Yes, via countless edits and rewrites.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 21, 2009, 03:42:59 PM
Truth is truth as laid down by Jesus and the Apostles, whch forms the core of catholicism, there is nothing new to be learned from anyone, convert or otherwise, in that respect.
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/cue-the-zombie-bunny.html
Which of the 4 truths are you claiming they should believe in ?
Quote from: The Iceman on October 21, 2009, 04:33:42 PM
Tony the Roman Catholic Church has changed dramatically since the times of Jesus and the Disciples. We have made, broken and changed our own "truths" throughout the centuries. If you hold onto purely "Biblical" truths then you deny the pillar and foundation of the truth - the Church, not the Bible.
I suspect, as usual, you make ill-informed comments laced with some truth in the hope that someone will take offense and that others will not be knowledgeable enough to challenge.
New "truths" or better understanding can come from converts and from "cradle" Catholics
Interestingly, the Holy Roman and Catholic Apostolic Church places much more emphasis on the Magisterium, the two thousand years of teaching and tradition, rather than taking the Bible as literal truth. The Bible as literal truth has certain non sequiturs, as Gnevin so subtly points out. It's always important to be aware of the distinction between the Christ of faith and Christ of history.
Does that mean that the converts in the Norn Iron will vote for a United Ireland now? How does that leave the ratio?!
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 09:16:32 AM
Boil it all down simply and the fact remains. You cannot be accepted into any organisation unless and until you accept without reservation all that that organisation stands for. Even more so with a religious faith.
If that same organisation says - we now accept people from X, then as a member, so should you accept people from X, without reservation, or form a break away church..... Which suits you more Tony?
You can't enforce acceptance of what the RC Church teaches while not accepting its decrees......Stop chasing your tail
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 02:13:34 PM
Two different scenarios. Bending the rules to accommodate membership is one thing, altering the fundamental truth of the Church's theological beliefs is something different.
How do you comprehend change within the church in general, if you believe in its fundamental truth? (not aimed at you and your view of your religion, but members of any religion really)
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 02:13:34 PM
Two different scenarios. Bending the rules to accommodate membership is one thing, altering the fundamental truth of the Church's theological beliefs is something different.
I suppose it equates to many members born into the Church who ignoe Church teaching on say, contraception.
Two different scenarios but the same inherent point and result - Tony is wrong.
Contraception - good man, change the subject.
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:01:13 PM
I'm not wrong, there is a difference between bending and breaking the rules. If by bdning the rules, other church members are allowed to access the one true church, then that is fine. However altering basic truths to make the church more attractive to other church members is wrong.
As far as I can see none of the basic truths are being altered in any way in this case.
So then what is your point?
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:01:13 PM
As far as I can see none of the basic truths are being altered in any way in this case.
What are the basic truths?
And how can a truth be altered?
What's the difference between a truth and a fact?
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Basic truths are as follows:
Salavation is possible only via the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
All Roman Catholic doctrine is true and unchallengable. This includes transubstantiation, power of priests to grant absolution, worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary etc.
The Pope is the supreme authority on earth, and is infallible on all matters theological.
Do you believe this Tony?... sounds like the Irish religious version of the BNP :P
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Basic truths are as follows:
Salavation is possible only via the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
All Roman Catholic doctrine is true and unchallengable. This includes transubstantiation, power of priests to grant absolution, worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary etc.
The Pope is the supreme authority on earth, and is infallible on all matters theological.
Iceman already explained to you that this is not true.
The Pope is infallible in terms of the doctrine of the Church, otherwise they are human and are known to make the odd human error, which Pope John Paul II actually apologised for
If you are going to pontificate to one and all, at least get it right!
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on October 22, 2009, 06:10:09 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Basic truths are as follows:
Salavation is possible only via the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
All Roman Catholic doctrine is true and unchallengable. This includes transubstantiation, power of priests to grant absolution, worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary etc.
The Pope is the supreme authority on earth, and is infallible on all matters theological.
Iceman already explained to you that this is not true.
The Pope is infallible in terms of the doctrine of the Church, otherwise they are human and are known to make the odd human error, which Pope John Paul II actually apologised for
If you are going to pontificate to one and all, at least get it right!
Are you suggesting that His Fearonness is not infallible? :o
P.S. Liked the "pontificate", btw ;)
Quote from: pk205 on October 21, 2009, 10:54:20 PM
Does that mean that the converts in the Norn Iron will vote for a United Ireland now? How does that leave the ratio?!
Do you think there will be many of those?
I mean, should Benedict be instructing the Housekeeper to order an extra quarter of ham for the sandwiches each week?
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 09:16:32 AM
As for EG's tiresome allegation that I was once a supporter of the North of Ireland's soccer team, I will repeat again. I attended my first international game involving the team that represents all of Ireland, way back in 1977 at Lansdowne Road (playing that day were the likes of Giles, Brady, O'Leary, Heighway, Platini,Rochteau, Janvion). This was long before the successful era of qualification for major finals. While I don't deny that I attended IFA games at Windsor Park (and thus helped minutely to transform the monocultural attendance that pertains to this day), I never ever had any sense that this team was playing for me or represented me, or even aspired to do so.
I attended my first ROI match* at Lansdowne (i.e. one which didn't involve NI) in 1980 (playing that day was a certain Diego Armando Maradona, btw). I continued to watch NI games regularly afterwards, however, the point being that the Argentina game was on a date when NI had no game.
Whereas you seem to have attended a fair few NI games at Windsor. On the basis that they surely cannot ALL have been when ROI were either not playing, or playing away, what sort of a "dyed-in-the-wool" ROI fan does that make you? :o
Or were the NI tickets freebies? :D
* - Btw, I went to Dublin in the company of a Catholic from Tyrone who was, and still is, an NI fan. He was able to explain to me the significance of all the statues and pictures on the walls of the Guesthouse we stayed in!
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 09:16:32 AMI attended my first international game involving the team that represents all of Ireland, way back in 1977 at Lansdowne Road
Almost 10 years after you first watched Northern Ireland playing at Windsor Park in 1967. Your trip to Windsor also predated your first Armagh championship game by quite a few years (that was 1976 if I recall correctly from some previous thread).
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Basic truths are as follows:
Salavation is possible only via the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
All Roman Catholic doctrine is true and unchallengable. This includes transubstantiation, power of priests to grant absolution, worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary etc.
The Pope is the supreme authority on earth, and is infallible on all matters theological.
You may check your sources Tony as you are very wide of the mark on most of your statements......
Quote from: T Fearon on October 22, 2009, 04:24:26 PM
Basic truths are as follows:
Salavation is possible only via the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church.
All Roman Catholic doctrine is true and unchallengable. This includes transubstantiation, power of priests to grant absolution, worship of the Blessed Virgin Mary etc.
The Pope is the supreme authority on earth, and is infallible on all matters theological.
You'd want to watch yourself on here - referring to
Roman Catholics - some of your allies will be having a fit!
As for the above, i'm sure a significant number of current 'Roman' Catholics don't even buy into all of it. Any converting Protestants would be in good company.