GAA break own rules by opening Croke Park before Lansdowne work begins
Friday January 26th 2007
Ulster chairman Grennan insists wording of motion is being ignored
THE GAA has sold out on its principles by opening Croke Park to other sports and is also breaking its own rules by allowing rugby and soccer international to take place there next month.
That's the strident view of Ulster Council chairman Michael Greenan, who is also a vice-president of the GAA. He is due to step down as Ulster chairman at the end of next month, ironically on the day Ireland play England in a Six Nations rugby international in Croke Park, although he insists the provincial convention's clash with the big game is purely coincidental.
In a searing critique of the GAA's links with rugby and soccer, Greenan slams the decision to open Croke Park in advance of work commencing on the Lansdowne Road redevelopment.
"People are beginning to see now that not only have we been sold a pup, we have been sold a whole litter. The motion (regarding opening Croke Park) as passed by 2005 Congress is not being adhered to. Work has not started on Lansdowne Road, yet, we're opening Croke Park for rugby and soccer. That's a wrong decision," he said.
As a member of the GAA's high-powered Management Committee, Greenan will be entitled to tickets for the forthcoming rugby internationals. However, he won't be attending the games and will decide later what to do with the tickets.
Will he send them back? "We'll see - I haven't got them yet so the matter doesn't arise as of now," he said.
Opponent
Asked if he would watch the game against France on TV he replied: "If I have nothing better to do, I might - it all depends on the day. I have no particular interest in rugby. People who don't see fit to play our national anthem at all times do nothing for me."
A native of Cavan, Greenan has been involved in GAA administration since becoming assistant secretary of his club at the age of 14. He also played for Cavan and rose to the highest echelons as a referee, prior to progressing up the administrative ladder to Ulster chairman level.
A leading opponent of the move to amend Rule 42 and allow soccer and rugby into Croke Park, he famously failed to stand when former GAA President, Seán Kelly was being feted by Congress as he left office last April.
However, Greenan refutes the suggestion that he is a controversial figure, arguing instead that he merely backs up his own beliefs. He also insists that his views on Croke Park resonate with many GAA people and was delighted to have got such a positive reaction to his opposition to opening the stadium.
"I represent a broader view than some people think. You would be absolutely amazed at the number of phone calls I got after the 2005 Congress. They came from all over Ireland. People were saying 'well done, it's a pity we haven't more like you.'
"I don't run with the crowd just because it's popular. I have my views on the use of Croke Park and I'm prepared to express them. I'm afraid we've lost the plot on this one. We're giving away our best asset to other people to generate money to either help pay their share of the Lansdowne Road redevelopment or promote their sports.
"Despite opening Croke Park, we're not allowed into Lansdowne Road although we were supposed to. Where's the justice in that.
"I believe we should be promoting our games, not those of our rivals. By opening Croke Park, we're promoting their sports and raising finance for them to do so. The GAA will make money from opening Croke Park but rugby and soccer will make five times as much. There no point making a pound for yourself and five or six for the other fella.
"Nobody in business is doing that so why are we," said Greenan, who was speaking in Dubai where he's on tour with the Vodafone All-Star footballers.
Greenan dabbled in soccer and rugby during his playing days and says he has no problems with either sport.
"It's just a question of where they're being played. Anybody who plays Gaelic Games should have a prospect of playing in Croke Park. At the moment they don't, yet we're allowing other sports in. If you play soccer for the 26 counties - not for Ireland because it's a partitionist situation - you'll get into Croke Park but not all GAA players can. We should be looking after our own first.
"You wouldn't let other people in to your own house and stop your own family sleeping there," he said.
He claims that the international rugby team are being better treated than All-Ireland finalists in relation to Croke Park.
"How many training sessions do All-Ireland final teams get in Croke Park? One if they're lucky and even then they are restricted in what they can do but the Irish rugby team has five sessions. Was that the motion we passed? They get five sessions and our own people get one and in many cases none at all. Where are we going? Are we being fair to our own? No, is the answer."
He said that the Government were effectively paying for the redevelopment of Lansdowne Road, that's assuming it goes ahead.
"I'm not totally convinced about it. Planning permission has been very slow and the people who are objecting to the new Lansdowne Road would hold more clout than those around Croke Park. Pensioners wouldn't have as much clout as senior counsel in Dublin 4.
"The GAA is being penalised and run down for having something while others are being indulged for having nothing. The net effect is that the Government is going to build a stadium for non-GAA sports.
"They gave a few pounds to the GAA and both they and we were criticised for it. The Government are effectively building a stadium for the two biggest professional sporting organisations in the country and in the meantime the GAA has to accommodate them," he said.
We should be promoting our games, not those of our rivals. By opening Croke Park, we're promoting their sports and raising finance for them to do so.
Greenan is delighted by progress made during his three years as Ulster chairman and believes the GAA is well placed to continue its growth into the future.
"We in Ulster have moved very much forward over the past three years. We have put full time secretaries in place in the various counties, employed up to forty coaches, put floodlighting in three venues, while more are due to come on line.
"We have been depicted as backwoodsmen from time to time but if you examine Ulster's performance on and off the pitch it paints a different picture," he said.
"Look at what we've done and compare it with the rest of the provinces and ask yourself - who are the backwoodsmen?"
Greenan has no idea what his future holds after he steps down as Ulster chairman but did not rule out the possibility of running for GAA President.
He would be a controversial choice but he is adamant his views are widely held. "I speak my mind. It's pity more people don't do the same."
Martin Breheny
© Irish Independent
Mr Greenan should be reminded that while his views may be widely held, beliefs to the contrary are much more widely held.
Hear, hear.
To Mr. Greenan that is, not Wobbler
Quote from: thewobbler on January 26, 2007, 01:47:08 PM
Mr Greenan should be reminded that while his views may be widely held, beliefs to the contrary are much more widely held.
ah but he is trying to state that he believes that the tide has turned as to who has the wider held beliefs
Lurganblue, you may be right, but I don't see quite how you've derived that synopsis from the article. The only mention of support for his ideas was directly after Rule 42 was changed. There's no talk (not even a whisper) of a wind of change.
Quote from: winghalfun on January 26, 2007, 01:48:56 PM
Hear, hear.
To Mr. Greenan that is, not Wobbler
I second that !
micheal greenan is spot on .
the gaa has lost its principle and is now more concerned with the liberal bigots within the o'reilly inspired press eg the irish independent.
it is a disgrace how the gaa fell for the media onslaught!
let us hope micheal greenan remains deeply involved in the gaa and this stomach churning behaviour stops.
the rule change is not being adhered to and let us all hope it is temporary and that was the rule change but sure enough the watery blueshirts will continue to push to take more of our principles from us. resist.
micheal greenan you speak for a large proportion of us who don't want 26 county teams representing us as a nation and a rugby side that is ashamed of our national anthem playing in croke park.
micheal greenan we need you more than ever .we salute you.
Is this the same lad who made that disgraceful politic speech in croke park the day of the first ulster final played there?
He makes very good points and he is entitled to. The whole thing was a smoke and mirrors exercise. They could play the games in Lansdowne - it might be "closed" but it's not closed for redevelopment, its closed for convenience. The farce that a lot of us saw has come to pass.
My anger has diminished since the vote, I've learned that I'm going to have to take it on the chin and move on. It doesn't make it right and frankly seeing people defend the indefensible just makes me remember of my pervading feeling at the time of the debate - a lot of people just wanted to see rugby and soccer matches in Croker and would go to any lengths to make it so.
Is this the same Mr Greenan who at half time of an Ulster Club qtr final in Clones wouldn't let the subs warm up on the pitch at half time and counted them coming off so that he could fine the club in question?
Yet he is ranting about giving letting Rugby players play on a field and not letting our own on it. He should worry about his own house and not start ranting about a motion passed by a mojority of members.
I see he has not yet decided what to do with his tickets. I'm sure he'll not be refusing them.
I also see he conducted this interview in Dubai? What need is there for him in Dudai and the rest of the other hangers on out there?
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 26, 2007, 02:06:33 PMand frankly seeing people defend the indefensible
Frankly, this is absurd.
I wonder if he's enjoying his junket in Dubai?
You would think that for one who holds such vehement views that it would take no more than a nanosecond to decide to not accept tickets to the rugby and soccer events....
Everyone's entitled to their views. Its when they talk shíte they get on my nerves:
"The GAA will make money from opening Croke Park but rugby and soccer will make five times as much. There no point making a pound for yourself and five or six for the other fella."
Well the 5 (or is it 6 ::) ) is an exaggerration, but even so he's being stupid enough to assume the FAI or IRFU would make nothing otherwise. Without Croker they'd go to Wales or London, and they'd make £4 and GAA would make nothing. In Croker, the IRFU/FAI make £5 and GAA make £1. The marginal profit for both organisations is about the same in rugby, and the GAA make a bit more than the FAI.
The FAI and IRFU will be paying by a large distance the highest rent ever paid for a sporting match in a sports stadium in Europe. And I'd love to know if there's ever been a higer rent paid anywhere in the world for a sports match - I doubt it.
Bingobus - that post is a disgrace. There are a lot more than players in this association and people like Greenan probably give more time than players for less reward.
And if you want his tickets why don't you ask him for them?
As for the idiots who go on about "26 counties" and "national anthem" - not worth debating with them as they are ignorant of the facts
QuoteFrom wrong calculation of scoring differences to dragging supporters to Breffni on a Tuesday evening to failing to deal with Mickey Harte's condescending atttitude - conclusion: Ulster Council is a joke
I said this earlier on the McKenna Cup thread - It is just as relevant here. Greenan is an arrogant man. While I agree with some of his sentiments, I disagree with his style of delivery, and I disagree with him prioritising national issues over sorting out problems in his province.
Quote from: bingobus on January 26, 2007, 02:10:12 PM
Is this the same Mr Greenan who at half time of an Ulster Club qtr final in Clones wouldn't let the subs warm up on the pitch at half time and counted them coming off so that he could fine the club in question?
Yet he is ranting about giving letting Rugby players play on a field and not letting our own on it. He should worry about his own house and not start ranting about a motion passed by a mojority of members.
I see he has not yet decided what to do with his tickets. I'm sure he'll not be refusing them.
I also see he conducted this interview in Dubai? What need is there for him in Dudai and the rest of the other hangers on out there?
Surely posessing these tickets would go against everything Mr Greenan stands for.
Would it not be more applicable for Mr Greenan to be in Omagh on sunday rather than in Dubai.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 26, 2007, 02:16:12 PM
are a lot more than players in this association and people like Greenan probably give more time than players for less reward.
This however, is true, and I think to be fair the man took early retirement mainly to focus on GAA work
Don't have much time for Greenan considering his spoilt-child like rants at opportune moments regarding the amendments of Rule 42, so forgive me for not caring about that piece above much. But for someone who seems to be passionate about not wanting to see "garrison" games in Coke Park, I wonder does he have the same enthusiasm for trying to see hurling be played in clubs across Ulster? Because in the province, in most clubs you'll see as much effort put into promoting hurling as you see for rugby or soccer.
That's rubbish Fionntamhnach - you cannot lay that at Greenan's door. There is little or no will in the area you mention to promote hurling. That's not Greenan's fault.
It amazes me how its ok to fire vitriolic abuse a GAA officials who put in massive hours for little or no reward but players are beyond reproach.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 26, 2007, 02:16:12 PM
Bingobus - that post is a disgrace. There are a lot more than players in this association and people like Greenan probably give more time than players for less reward.
And if you want his tickets why don't you ask him for them?
Did I ask for his tickets? If he's so against the notion of accepting the tickets shouldn't even cross his mind.
I know people do buckets of work for clubs and counties yet will not accept one dime for it. Many would be out of pocket. Yet he has jumped onboard an All-star trip to Dudai. If it was the Ozzie rules down under I could see his reason for been there and fair play to the senior officias who go as they are representing the members of the GAA. But a glorified friendly in the desert? Whats his role?
Off tangent perhaps - but given his opinions on Croke Park why then, during his stewardship, has the Ulster Council given its backing to a new sports stadium at the Maze, in which the GAA would become permanent bedfellows with the IFA and URFU? From my perspective, the GAA has no need for this stadium whatsoever, yet from what I am led to believe the project would not have got off the ground without the support of the GAA.
The Ulster Council certainly couldn't make anymore money from a gate at this new ground than they could from the tax-free, GAA-owned ground in Clones.
So according to the logic displayed by Mr Greenan in the interview above, all the Ulster Council are in fact doing in supporting this idea is giving soccer and rugby in the north the ability to earn substantially greater gate revenue.
Cavan lads, I know how you feel, coming as I do from the county that gave Hector Ó hEochagáin to the world.
QuoteIt amazes me how its ok to fire vitriolic abuse a GAA officials who put in massive hours for little or no reward but players are beyond reproach.
A long, long time ago in GAAboard world, I identified Magpie Seanie as a blinkered hypocrite. He took exception to my comments and hasn't replied (directly) to me since then.
This is perhaps the finest example yet of this hypocrisy.
Seanie spent the last few months of Sean Kelly's presidential tenure belittling the man at every possible opportunity, blaming him for every ill in the game, posting slanderous comments about his reasons for being involved with the GAA.
Yet now, when it suits his petty little mind, he pulls this out of his hat.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 26, 2007, 02:26:40 PM
That's rubbish Fionntamhnach - you cannot lay that at Greenan's door. There is little or no will in the area you mention to promote hurling. That's not Greenan's fault.
It amazes me how its ok to fire vitriolic abuse a GAA officials who put in massive hours for little or no reward but players are beyond reproach.
While of course I can't lay that responsibility on Greenan, in the back of my mind I have never seen Greenan been as enthusiastic to promote hurling in Ulster the same way he bleats on about rule 42.
And trust me, I've put in plenty of voluntary hours for no reward and even been kicked in the balls metaphorically over some of it, but it makes no-one immune from challenging the viewpoints of anyone who makes their opinion in a flippant non-constructive fashion. There are many decisions at club, county and national level that don't go the way I'd like them to but I don't go on a perpetual whinge about it.
Quote from: Mayo4Sam on January 26, 2007, 02:01:39 PM
Is this the same lad who made that disgraceful politic speech in croke park the day of the first ulster final played there?
This was a genuine question? Is this the same fella?
I thought he was a disgrace that day and was embarassed to be listening to what he was saying
I've said it here before, Greenan is an egomaniac, arch self-publicist who constantly bangs a loud controversial drum on various matters so he can sit back and marvel at the outspoken, blood and thunder, staunch and independent-minded heroic leader of men he thinks himself to be. I know this guy of old, trust me. His pathetic speeches on the steps of Croker, referencing political issues that have no place during any Cup presentation, shows that he considers his own agenda more important than the duties he's there to discharge, is willing to not only breach unspoken rules of decency but will also bypass acute embarrassment of himself in front of thousands if he thinks he can grab some publicity. Greenan makes me want to puke. Every stunt like this, his refusal to stand for Sean Kelly included, are all calculated moves on his part to increase his profile, feed his instatiable ego and make no mistake about it, in his mind, pave the way to stand for the Presidency. If he ever makes the highest office in the GAA, it will mark a darker day for the GAA when he sits down at his desk in the Hogan Stand than it will when Brian O'Driscoll et al ply their trade there for a few years before going back to where they came from. This constant inward-looking perspective and implicit failure to ackowledge that these fantastic GAA sports have a hold so great on the hearts and minds of Irish people that a few years of other sports at Croker will not even dent, is what's saddest of all about people like Greenan and their views. Bottom line, they lack confidence in their own product and fear the big bad international sports, despite fighting them off for years. The real battle ground with rugby and soccer is in treatment of players, welfare and making sure we keep them interested and well looked after, and has f**k all to do with stadiums if you ask me.
There were men like Greenan painting apocalyptic pictures when the ban was removed, it was the same when the ban on RUC and security forces was debated...and last time I looked the GAA hadn't crumbled because they were done away with. A few years of soccer and rugby at Croke Park - and let's not forget that Nickey Brennan has been quite strong in his handling of this so far and I for one don't expect him to keep rolling over if Lansdowne doesn't get underway soon - shouldn't kill it either.
I don't want to get into discussing the merits or lack of in Greenan's points, some of them are well enough made even if the one about Croker promoting other sports is a red herring - Croker or not these sports will have a high profile, they did before they will after - but what prompted me to post is that yet again, Greenan is elbowing his way into the public arena with more bluster and pulpit thumping that's frankly embarrassing to himself and his office. Whether you agree with some or all of what he's saying, fair enough, but don't be sucked into thinking he's a searing GAA evangelist with the association's best interests at heart. Michael Greenan looks out for Michael Greenan, end of.
QuotePeople who don't see fit to play our national anthem at all times do nothing for me
I like this sentence. Does he go around with Amhrán na bhFiann playing in an iPod or something?
QuoteThere are a lot of hypocritical posts. We can surely run Greenan down, but someone offers a view on Kelly and it is a full scale defense. Amazing.
Maybe its the way that both Grennan and Kelly deal with the issues at hand is what brings out the reactions against them, whereas Brennan is much more diplomatic in his public responses.
Greenan's a broke record. I wasn't keen for opening Croke Park to rugby and soccer. Now it is, I accept the will of the majority of the GAA and I shall try my best, from what I can do, to make it successful. Ulster doesn't need to be seen as the Dark Ages of the GAA.
Ziggy - if it was a straight YES v. NO vote then no-one could have any grounds for complaint. There were conditions and a blind man can see they are not fulfilled. That's the point the man is making. People who suggested that it was possible that Lansdowne would actually be available for these games were pilloried at the time of the debate remember (and from this thread you can see that the modus operandi of name calling and abuse is still alive and well).
I don't know an awful lot about Greenan in fairness and would disagree somewhat with his comment about the rugby and the national anthem but I don't think he should be criticised in this instance for telling the emporer that he has no clothes.
On the ticket thing I'd say anyone desperate to go to the games could do worse than go through Mr. Greenan's bins in the next few weeks.
I agree with Greenan on principles of opening Croke Park. And even worse, The GAA have rescheduled both All Ireland Hurling semi-final bacause of the rugby.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 26, 2007, 03:24:27 PM
Ziggy - if it was a straight YES v. NO vote then no-one could have any grounds for complaint. There were conditions and a blind man can see they are not fulfilled. That's the point the man is making. People who suggested that it was possible that Lansdowne would actually be available for these games were pilloried at the time of the debate remember (and from this thread you can see that the modus operandi of name calling and abuse is still alive and well).
I don't know an awful lot about Greenan in fairness and would disagree somewhat with his comment about the rugby and the national anthem but I don't think he should be criticised in this instance for telling the emporer that he has no clothes.
On the ticket thing I'd say anyone desperate to go to the games could do worse than go through Mr. Greenan's bins in the next few weeks.
`
If a guy is going to come out with a controversial stance, he has to expect criticism, whether you agree with that or not! And you don't really believe that about the tickets........................
Greenan for Taoiseach :D
Michael Greenans mouth should be taped shut >:(
The man is an embarrassment to the Cavan GAA community.
I had forgotten about his embarrassing political oratory in the stadium he cares about so much.
In a few harsh sentances he quite possibly did more to sully the memories created on that hallowed turf than the flying feet of Brian O'Driscoll or Damien Duff could ever do.
Absolutely agree with him.
Will agree with Micheál Grennan even more in about a month's time when the Rugby and Soccer tribes have triumphalized to the rafters and insulted the GAA and alot of its members.
Don't forget that for every Euro in rent we get that our "tenants/licensees" get 5/6 Euros plus the product placement of their competing code in a great stadium. The IRFU and FAI will soon see it as a "right" to use CP at their leisure.
If you are waiting for any humility/ gratitude from them dream on.
Hope the deal is not extended.
Quote from: cavanmaniac on January 26, 2007, 02:36:03 PM
I've said it here before, Greenan is an egomaniac, arch self-publicist who constantly bangs a loud controversial drum on various matters so he can sit back and marvel at the outspoken, blood and thunder, staunch and independent-minded heroic leader of men he thinks himself to be. I know this guy of old, trust me. His pathetic speeches on the steps of Croker, referencing political issues that have no place during any Cup presentation, shows that he considers his own agenda more important than the duties he's there to discharge, is willing to not only breach unspoken rules of decency but will also bypass acute embarrassment of himself in front of thousands if he thinks he can grab some publicity. Greenan makes me want to puke. Every stunt like this, his refusal to stand for Sean Kelly included, are all calculated moves on his part to increase his profile, feed his instatiable ego and make no mistake about it, in his mind, pave the way to stand for the Presidency. If he ever makes the highest office in the GAA, it will mark a darker day for the GAA when he sits down at his desk in the Hogan Stand than it will when Brian O'Driscoll et al ply their trade there for a few years before going back to where they came from. This constant inward-looking perspective and implicit failure to ackowledge that these fantastic GAA sports have a hold so great on the hearts and minds of Irish people that a few years of other sports at Croker will not even dent, is what's saddest of all about people like Greenan and their views. Bottom line, they lack confidence in their own product and fear the big bad international sports, despite fighting them off for years. The real battle ground with rugby and soccer is in treatment of players, welfare and making sure we keep them interested and well looked after, and has f**k all to do with stadiums if you ask me.
There were men like Greenan painting apocalyptic pictures when the ban was removed, it was the same when the ban on RUC and security forces was debated...and last time I looked the GAA hadn't crumbled because they were done away with. A few years of soccer and rugby at Croke Park - and let's not forget that Nickey Brennan has been quite strong in his handling of this so far and I for one don't expect him to keep rolling over if Lansdowne doesn't get underway soon - shouldn't kill it either.
I don't want to get into discussing the merits or lack of in Greenan's points, some of them are well enough made even if the one about Croker promoting other sports is a red herring - Croker or not these sports will have a high profile, they did before they will after - but what prompted me to post is that yet again, Greenan is elbowing his way into the public arena with more bluster and pulpit thumping that's frankly embarrassing to himself and his office. Whether you agree with some or all of what he's saying, fair enough, but don't be sucked into thinking he's a searing GAA evangelist with the association's best interests at heart. Michael Greenan looks out for Michael Greenan, end of.
If there was an "applause" emoticon I'd put it right here.
Getting tired of Grennan's grandstanding, scare-mongering and bluster myself.
Micheal Greenan is absoltely right!
the gaa has fallen for bully boy tactics from the media and liberal bigots.
we must remember who we are and our history and that it is the promotion of our games which is paramount.
I concur fully with Greenans views on this issue, but the debate took place and we lost, so its foolish and unhelpful that he should raise the issue now. Yes we were sold a Pup, but no point crying over spilt milk. Lets chalk it up to experience and move on
Greenan is an arrogant self-publicist of limited ability. There are plenty of people who have put in the same amount of work and didn't get the perks he got and is getting.He's an embarassment .One association, one country, one vote. Had concerns about the thing myself but have moved on PS That ball was never over the line
it is not about spilt milk it is about a rule changed being adhered to.
how many times do our top hurlers or footballers get to train in croke park?
it is about time men of principle spoke up and you two down men(or maybe you are both the same) would do better to run to your ally eddie mc grady and ask his opinion!
also don't be attacking the work he has done for the association , he has been involved at all levels not just the commitee room with the knights of coloumbanus!
If any member feels the criteria of the sanction for the use of croke park by other sports hasn't been met, why don't they initiate a legal challenge?
What the hell are you on Gael. What has Eddie Mc Grady got to do with this debate. Who are the Down men attacking Greenan. For gods sake man, take your own advice and sober up.
QuoteMichael Greenan looks out for Michael Greenan, end of.
I think, with reference to this guy's record, that this is a ploy to put himself in the picture for a run at the Presidency for the next term. I'd be inclined to agree with the Cavan lads assessment of Mr. Greenan - after all, they should know him better than the rest of us.
I'd be inclined to think that this is rabble rousing of the very worst kind, the kind he's in no position to act upon, and has no intention of acting upon.
And, as chairman of the Ulster Council, if Greenan is not responsible for the poor state of affairs in relation to Ulster Hurling, then I'd like to understand who is.
I read through the first two pages, but got tired of all the shite being spouted here
Basically, I was in favour of Croke Park being opened to the FAI and IRFU to facilitate them (while we made lots of €€€€ from them), while Landsdowne Road was being developed
After watching the Irish Rugby team stroll into Croker for another training session on Thursday, it has tipped my view on opening the stadium issue. I am not in favour of any more games being allowed in there
Why do they get to train in Croker for a few hours when many a county team (including Roscommon minors) have been limited to begging for a paltry 30 minutes familiarisation session the week leading up to a big game? I would guess our old friend Peter McKenna is behind some of this - another man with an ego
Grennan sounds like a dinosaur, the sort of fella who feels he is on a one-man mission to save the GAA and mould it to his warped image of what the GAA should be...
So I say, let them have their few games in Croke Park, but after that, pull the plug. Its our stadium and i'd prefer to keep it that way
Mike - Look what I said again, there's a clue in it...
QuoteIt amazes me how its ok to fire vitriolic abuse a GAA officials who put in massive hours for little or no reward but players are beyond reproach
Kelly's presidency was designed to land himself a job like the one he got for selling the pup to us. I and many like me saw this and didn't trust him. We have been proved right in most of the worries we were poo-poo'ed (or worse) for having. So don't try to take the moral high ground.
Anyway, its not going to change anything. I still think though that its worth pointing out that the rules (that were voted for by over two/thirds majority as we keep being reminded) are being broken. Democracy my arse.
Quote from: magpie seanie on January 27, 2007, 07:59:43 PM
Democracy my arse.
You'd no problem with democracy as I recall, when the no vote previously won by a hairs breadth, on the basis of a show of hands (not counted), where delegates mandated by their clubs to vote yes turned and made a personal decision to vote no, where delegates mandated to vote yes just happened to need to run to the loo at the most inopportune moment!? No fuss then!
Now you're pouring over the minutiae to see some form of wording that can deem the recent opening of Croke Park as technically out of order! Catch yourself on! I sure as hell hope you put as much effort into your Club at home, as you do arguing such a bankrupt case here!
Reference the issue of Sean Kelly, he has been the subject of verbal abuse here that has been vitriolic in the extreme - once famously referred to as a w****r >:(.
I have challenged you about that severals time on this board, to the extent that I am now in the same boat as Wobbler - I was added to your 'list'.
Doesn't matter if you answer or not - I know you read it and I know you understand my point! ;)
Just wondering, with all the rucking and mauling the rugby players do will the Croker Authorities complain about them trampling on the pitch? Fair play to Greenan, and fair play again.
I wonder why as a GAA "Family" why are we so insecure about our games and the position they hold in the Irish psyche. I am a gaa player and follower,but i also play soccer as well and for one i am proud that our stadium will be hosting these games. For anyone to say that soccer and rugby are going to take over becuase we allow a couple of games in Croke park is utter shit. I am excited to see these games been broadcast around the world and as a sporting organisation we should stand up and say this is part of who we are and we are proud of it. As for Grennan he is stuck in the dark ages, i dont look on soccer or rugby as "garrison" games thay are just games and people will make up their minds what they want to play. This debate reminds me of the time when Sky arrived on our televisions,it would be the end of R.T.E and our Irish identity some people claimed,but nothing has changed. It seems that there are factions of the G.A.A especially traditional republicans who like the church do not want change as their own power base will be undermined and there might not be as many trips to Dubai and Australia. Long live croker as the greatest stadium in these isles and lets be proud of it and show it off to the world. Politically and culturally this country is changing at a rapid pace and if we are still stuck in the dark ages with our thinking well then we will have reason to be afraid of soccer and rugby "taking over". This is a proud and confident Ireland we live in now and the old shit about dark outside forces taking over the poor auld G.A.A is only suiting vested interests who want to keep the status quo to suit themselves.
Totally agree with Greenan, just because his ways don't suit everyone does not mean he is wrong.
A man who has done plenty for the GAA in Ulster and I assume most on here are basing their opinions on the person as a result of newspaper interviews.
Also The Ulster Council does promote Hurling in Ulster and try to improve it e.g accepting Armagh into the Senior Championship. But if the interest is not there they can not perform miracles.
After the vote on rule 42 was taken there was a radio show, between 6-7 (sportsline?) where that Cork official was being interviewed and a guy from Wexford came on saying that soccer was definitely having an impact on the GAA in Wexford. And he was very much in favour of opening Corke Park. Maybe someone has the link for this?
So Mid-Louth is the opening of Croke Park going to change the situtation in Wexford, i doubt it. Surley this is an issue for the G.A.A in Wexford and other parts of the country affected to find out why kids are playing soccer instead of playing G.A.A. The G.A.A have no divine right to these kids and if thay target them in the way soccer has targeted them,that would be a start.I see there is some builder looking for a Wexford team in the Eircom league,has the G.A.A devised something to counteract this...i doubt it.But keeping croker closed wont stop the kids playing soccer.
An Gaeilgoir, you make the typical arguement that everything in Ireland should be streamline, no identity. Sure lets all forget everything that got us where we are and swing the gates open of every ground.
Here we go again,this debate is about Croke park only,so why drag this chestnut up again...for the record there are a lot of clubs who share pitches and facilities around the country.As i said earlier the insecurity of the G.A.A, your comment about our identity been lost...the G.A.A will never lose its identity in this country lets get real...and not one person on here who agrees with opening Croke park has mentioned forgetting everything,what ever it is...most likely the struggle against the English....
Mid Louth these are the same old arguments been trotted out and it makes the G.A.A look like it is stuck in the sixties with the catholic church. Ireland has changed,not always for the best,but if the G.A.A doesnt change with it,we will end up like the catholic church.
Aside from the usual vitriol and accusations of backwoodsmen and liberal bigots ( that's a new one on me surely it is an oxymoron? ) let's have a quick look at Mr. Grennan's argument.
" The Gaa has sold out on it's principles by opening Croke Park ". Fair enough allegation given the highly emotive issue at stake but how does Mr. Grennan elaborate on this position.
He goes on to say that the motion passed is not being adhered to. That is not established as a fact, it is merely a matter of opinion and he finds himself at odds with the opinions of those responsible for interpreting the motion.
"If I have nothing better to do, I might - it all depends on the day. I have no particular interest in rugby. People who don't see fit to play our national anthem at all times do nothing for me"
His lack of interest in rugby is of no consequence however the National Anthem statement is beyond absurd. Even allowing for the fact that the sentence was not exactly what he meant to say as spotted by AZOffaly it is still idiotic. Do Irish people have to play the National Anthem everytime it is perceived that they are representing their country or is it only in sport?
" People are beginning to see now that not only have we been sold a pup, we have been sold a whole litter. The motion (regarding opening Croke Park) as passed by 2005 Congress is not being adhered to. Work has not started on Lansdowne Road, yet, we're opening Croke Park for rugby and soccer ". The pup being of course that they won't bother developing it now that Croker is available.
" We're giving away our best asset to other people to generate money to either help pay their share of the Lansdowne Road redevelopment or promote their sports. " What Lansdowne Road development? Wasn't that the pup. As for promoting their own sports they don't need Gaa help as been pointed out by other posters, this deal will probably cost them money particularly if the fortunes of the soccer team continue in freefall. Croker could be very expensive with a small crowd.
" I believe we should be promoting our games, not those of our rivals. By opening Croke Park, we're promoting their sports and raising finance for them to do so. The GAA will make money from opening Croke Park but rugby and soccer will make five times as much. There no point making a pound for yourself and five or six for the other fella. "
" Nobody in business is doing that so why are we " . This is complete rubbish. Venues are rented time and time again without the owners trying to put the tenants out of business or vice versa.
Then he changes tack completely and comes out with the following:
" It's just a question of where they're being played. Anybody who plays Gaelic Games should have a prospect of playing in Croke Park. At the moment they don't, yet we're allowing other sports in. If you play soccer for the 26 counties - not for Ireland because it's a partitionist situation - you'll get into Croke Park but not all GAA players can. We should be looking after our own first. "
This really makes me angry. The U-21 finals and Hogan Cup finals are no longer held in Croker. The Ros - Kerry replay wasn't held in Croker, why? Because it costs too much to open it. Grennan is completely misrepresenting this argument about the poor Gaa players not getting in because of rugby or soccer. All Gaa players don't play in Croker because the Gaa don't let them, end of story. He is right we should be looking after our own and those games should have been played in Croker, but is the fault of people like the Ulster Council chairman Michael Greenan, who is also a vice-president of the GAA and a member of the GAA's high-powered Management Committee that they aren't.
"How many training sessions do All-Ireland final teams get in Croke Park? One if they're lucky and even then they are restricted in what they can do but the Irish rugby team has five sessions. Was that the motion we passed? They get five sessions and our own people get one and in many cases none at all. Where are we going? Are we being fair to our own? No, is the answer."
The Mayo County Board parted company with their most successful ever hurling manager amid rumours that he had too many training sessions. When the Mayo minor team lost the Connacht final last year it was considered amazing that they had no 'official' friendlies before their All-Ireland quarter final game with Kerry. More rumours. The IRFU and the FAI will pay handsomely for Croker. Whinging on one hand about the poor Gaa players not getting their chance while shafting them on the other hand just doesn't stand up as an argument.
" The net effect is that the Government is going to build a stadium for non-GAA sports. "
"They gave a few pounds to the GAA and both they and we were criticised for it. The Government are effectively building a stadium for the two biggest professional sporting organisations in the country and in the meantime the GAA has to accommodate them "
A few pounds? I'd love if Grennan gave me a few pounds like that. Actually can I have a few tickets as well?
By accepting the 'few pounds' the Gaa were left with nowhere to go.
I have tried hard to see what principles of the Gaa Grennan identified as being sold. If it is that Gaa players should have more access to Croker then he has a point but no-one is more responsible than people like himself, certainly not the IRFU or the FAI as he tries to argue.
Is is that the Gaa should be against the redevelopment of Lansdowne thereby scuppering the plans of a rival. While I'm sure that would be popular it will not happen. No government, court or EU body would allow it. Is it that now we are for the redevelopment of Lansdowne but as long as it suits us and we could play there even though we don't ever want to?
The only valid point is the one about promoting rival sports. We've had that out before on this site and while there is a real concern on this issue the two main sides will just have to agree to disagree about this. Only time will tell but personally I think the League of Ireland is a permanently lame duck while Rugby looks good only on the surface, Serge Blanco has exposed some serious problems with the foundations. However like the Gaa both will be around for a long time and we should get used to co-existing.
Im not going to get into a tit for tat with you mid-louth...but if soccer is no.1,which i did not say was never going to happen...why not use some of the millions that we are going to get from the opening of croker to counteract this. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Quote from: BallyhaiseMan on January 26, 2007, 05:14:55 PM
Michael Greenans mouth should be taped shut >:(
The man is an embarrassment to the Cavan GAA community.
I thought that was the Cavan seniors! ;)
bit of calm there lads!!!
although i dont agree with the way mr geannan goes about his business most of the time (i.e. he comes across as arrogant and his behaviour at congress wasnt acceptable) he makes a very valid point here.
ok, financially its great for the gaa, but its not what was passed at congress. landsdowne is not being redeveloped and i doubt it if it ever will be.
from my own experience our own club has alot of competiton from soccer. but while we have our own field, changing rooms coaching structure etc, soccer clubs play on public pitches and firmly believe that it is the duty of the local authority to provide them with a pitch! on top of that we have had a player seriously injured while playing a bit of soccer over the winter, but now he cannot receive the medical treatment he requires because the soccer club is not insured.
i have no problem with lending any facilities to rugby as they, like the gaa, are hard working and have their own network of club grounds around the country. indeed the local rugby club has been more than helpful towards us on many occasions. it is soccer with which i have a problem with, pack of scroungers with no respect for anybody not to mention the behaviour of the 'fans'
Quote from: behind the wire on January 28, 2007, 10:17:55 PM
ok, financially its great for the gaa, but its not what was passed at congress. landsdowne is not being redeveloped and i doubt it if it ever will be.
What are your reasons for this doubt ?
Quote from: stephenite on January 28, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
Quote from: behind the wire on January 28, 2007, 10:17:55 PM
ok, financially its great for the gaa, but its not what was passed at congress. landsdowne is not being redeveloped and i doubt it if it ever will be.
What are your reasons for this doubt ?
paranoia
Quote from: dublinfella on January 28, 2007, 11:17:20 PM
Quote from: stephenite on January 28, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
Quote from: behind the wire on January 28, 2007, 10:17:55 PM
ok, financially its great for the gaa, but its not what was passed at congress. landsdowne is not being redeveloped and i doubt it if it ever will be.
What are your reasons for this doubt ?
paranoia
I'm sure he can speak for himself
Quote from: stephenite on January 28, 2007, 11:18:34 PM
Quote from: dublinfella on January 28, 2007, 11:17:20 PM
Quote from: stephenite on January 28, 2007, 10:24:43 PM
Quote from: behind the wire on January 28, 2007, 10:17:55 PM
ok, financially its great for the gaa, but its not what was passed at congress. landsdowne is not being redeveloped and i doubt it if it ever will be.
What are your reasons for this doubt ?
paranoia
I'm sure he can speak for himself
well this little soundbite accusing the IRFU of pulling a fast one on the GAA, Govt and their own membership has been around this site for a while. no-one has made any effort to justify it. i think in the interest if fair play, people either put up or shut up on this. its quite the allegation.
pp has been applied for, asbestos removal has begun. did people expect to blink and LR would just appear?
Although controversial Mr. Grennan shoots from the hip, I admire that because he has raised the debate again.
At the end of the day the main problem and fear is that the FAI and the IRFU will see the opening up of Croke Park as a more triumphant occasion for them rather than it being a good gesture on the GAAs behalf.
Like it or lump it we are in competition with them for players. I have seen it at Bord nA nOg level for years where potentially great footballers have left GAA to pursue other sports.
The opening up of Croke Park has been in the favor of the FAI and IRFU because we have lost the one unique prize that separated us from them...
The chance to play in Croke Park, which now will be a more common and less unique thing. This inevitable will promote their games, whatever way you look at it. Hence they will be generating more money from this by using Croke Park than anticipated
The other main point that was raised is the fact that there is no official time line as to when the IRFU and FAI will no longer need to play in Croke Park. Its is a bizzare situation that no planning permission has been granted yet.
The GAA should now re-negotiate the terms... perhaps look for more money. And dis spell the doubts and worries people are having
QuoteAt the end of the day the main problem and fear is that the FAI and the IRFU will see the opening up of Croke Park as a more triumphant occasion for them rather than it being a good gesture on the GAAs behalf.
Is that seriously the main problem? Though they come homeless and paying lots of money that they might not be grateful enough is the main problem? Imagine if they enjoy it, heaven forbid!
QuoteLike it or lump it we are in competition with them for players. I have seen it at Bord nA nOg level for years where potentially great footballers have left GAA to pursue other sports.
The O'Byrne cup today had 7,000 at it. Mayo v Sligo IT had 3,000 at it. That's the warm up competitions for the warm up competition. The paranoia is astonishing.
The Gaa has never been stronger and there are many reasons for that. The vision of those who went ahead with developing Croker in the first place. Allowing TV coverage of provincial games, then of all games. It seems hard to believe now but there were high ranking officials who said it would kill attendances. As long as the Gaa keeps moving forward and doesn't get stuck in some idealogical rut it will remain by far the premier sporting organisation in this country.
I said:
Quote
I have seen it at Bord nA nOg level for years where potentially great footballers have left GAA to pursue other sports.
Muppet said:
Quote
The O'Byrne cup today had 7,000 at it. Mayo v Sligo IT had 3,000 at it. That's the warm up competitions for the warm up competition. The paranoia is astonishing.
Its not paranoia muppet. Im my early 20's. When I was U-10 we got to a Connaught Semi final community games and we had over 25 players on the panel. Today just two players are left from that whole panel that are playing either senior of junior for our club.
How can you say its paranoia when the reason for the dropout of players is because they went playing soccer?
The paranoia is astonishing? More like you ignorance. Dont try and tell me that im paranoid when im speaking from experience.
I think Greenan was right at the time, is right now and will be proved to be right in the future.
I for one was amazed to see the rugby people getting FIVE training outings in the stadium when GAA teams have the greatest of difficulty getting even one - and our ladies apparently are having problems getting in at all this year.
The motion to let the others in was on the basis of Landsdowne being closed for redeveleopment, ie when the wrecking ball would have moved in, NOT being closed just so that they could apply for planning permission to rebuild it.
Another part of the bargain at the time was that the new "national stadium" at Landsdowne could cater for gaelic games. That turned out to be another of the pups in the litter we were sold. And as for Tallaght?
stephenite, just online now.
i just think that once the fai and irfu get into croker they may be happy to stay. its an amazing stadium, 3rd largest in europe, much better than the other two organisations are ever likely to achieve.
i was in headquarter last friday and took the croker tour again. there were 5 welsh guys on it, i think they were rugby officials. they were astounded at how good our stadium was and almost refused to believe that we are all amateurs. i felt proud to be a gaa member. our amatuer ethos is something we must all be proud of!
the welsh men were highly respectful of everything gaa and could identify with the ethos of our sport i.e. no segregation at matches. i'll say it again, i have no problem with helping out the rugby authorities. but i think soccer are scroungers and it will be interesting to see the level of respect shown by soccer supporters towards our facilities. i am not anti soccer, i have been known to play a bit, but i dont think it will fit in with the ethos of croker.
Quote from: AbbeySider on January 29, 2007, 09:27:57 AM
I said:
Quote
I have seen it at Bord nA nOg level for years where potentially great footballers have left GAA to pursue other sports.
Muppet said:
Quote
The O'Byrne cup today had 7,000 at it. Mayo v Sligo IT had 3,000 at it. That's the warm up competitions for the warm up competition. The paranoia is astonishing.
Its not paranoia muppet. Im my early 20's. When I was U-10 we got to a Connaught Semi final community games and we had over 25 players on the panel. Today just two players are left from that whole panel that are playing either senior of junior for our club.
How can you say its paranoia when the reason for the dropout of players is because they went playing soccer?
The paranoia is astonishing? More like you ignorance. Dont try and tell me that im paranoid when im speaking from experience.
If you think that any sport will carry U-10 squad numbers of 25 all the way to senior then maybe you are the one who is ignorant. The vast majority of kids will try their hands at sports so you will always get high numbers at that age. I serious doubt if all your 24 fellow U-10s are playing serious soccer now. Are you talking about indoor which hardly counts?
Do you think you are the only experienced person here at the age of 25? I'm in my late 30's so please don't patronise me with your experience.
Couldnt agree more muppet. As i said earlier the opening of Croke park will not stop lads going off and playing other sports, that is life. The G.A.A is still number one in this country despite the doom and gloom and come next may/June and the start of the championship this will be forgotten.Its time to be proud of croke park and show it to the world.
Quote from: muppet on January 29, 2007, 09:59:49 AM
If you think that any sport will carry U-10 squad numbers of 25 all the way to senior then maybe you are the one who is ignorant. The vast majority of kids will try their hands at sports so you will always get high numbers at that age. I serious doubt if all your 24 fellow U-10s are playing serious soccer now. Are you talking about indoor which hardly counts?
Do you think you are the only experienced person here at the age of 25? I'm in my late 30's so please don't patronise me with your experience.
Speaking from personal experience is hardly being patronising, Muppet.
(if you want patronising or condescending read your own signature)
Im not arguing that those lads are still playing soccer but they did leave the club to play soccer down through the years in Bord nA nOg.
For the most part they were playing for 3-4 Mayo soccer clubs. You cant criticise me for speaking from what I know to be facts and personal experience when I see my own friends leave GAA.
And I have seen teams in my GAA club and other GAA clubs that managed to keep lads together all the way to U-21 where at least 12 of them were playing together at U-10 so its not impossible. Stop nit-picking. We are gone way off the topic at this stage.
And In fairness I did say you were ignorant but I retract that.
It was a bit strong but at the same time you seem staunch supporter of FAI and remarked I was paranoid.
Abbeysider, it isn't soccer or rugby that stopped these lads playing Gaelic football.
There are two things that generally see lads leave the GAA:
- One is the pyramid structure of all GAA clubs. 10+ fellas graduate from the minor ranks each year, but only 15 people in that entire club can start for the seniors every week.
- The other is that at senior club level, Gaelic football requires a huge amount of dedication, and most people in this world either don't have the time or don't have the interest to meet the standards required.
Regarding your under-10 team, if 12 fellas from that side had went on to become dyed in the wool GAA players, then 12 other lads from your Parish from outside your age group would now be doing very little in terms of sport apart from some of them dabbling in soccer.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 29, 2007, 10:50:06 AM
- One is the pyramid structure of all GAA clubs. 10+ fellas graduate from the minor ranks each year, but only 15 people in that entire club can start for the seniors every week.
I said twice down through the years in Bord nA nOg. Bord nA nOg runs from U-10 to Minor. We lost players long before minor.
Quote from: thewobbler on January 29, 2007, 10:50:06 AM
Regarding your under-10 team, if 12 fellas from that side had went on to become dyed in the wool GAA players, then 12 other lads from your Parish from outside your age group would now be doing very little in terms of sport apart from some of them dabbling in soccer.
I agree. I dont really mind what young people are playing so long as they are playing something. Thats not my point at all.
Greenan has a point. This September Croke Park opens its gates to the World Seafood Congress. Even though we'll see a fine exhibition dedicated to the theme of 'Innovation in the Seafood Industry' where exhibitors will showcase the latest technologies and trends in new product and process development, quality assurance and labelling, it's just not GAA. Partitionist shame.
Delegates react as a speaker inadvertently utters the word 'change' at congress.
(http://www.geocities.com/hardyarse/watchout.jpg)
class hardy!
"Ladies and gentlemen, we give you, . . . TREVOR BRENNAN!"
(http://www.geocities.com/hardyarse/watchout.jpg)
:D :D :D
FEARON TAKES T-SHIRT OFF DURING WIMBLEDON FORTNIGHT
(http://www.geocities.com/hardyarse/watchout.jpg)
Ni Fans arrive at Pairc ceis mor ealry to watch the minor match
Lights turned on at Croke Park by Nicky Brennan .