Poll
Question:
NAMA
Option 1: Bad Move
votes: 22
Option 2: Good Move
votes: 8
Option 3: Don't Care
votes: 1
Option 4: Don't Know
votes: 3
What will you say when your children ask you - why did you do it?
Say No to NAMA by taking part in a protest march.
The march will take place on September 19, beginning with a rally at Parnell Square before walking through the city, past the Dáil and finishing outside Anglo Irish Bank on St Stephen's Green
Read more: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eycwojqlojcw/rss2/#ixzz0RFd3cKP8
Yes if all other arguments fail - then please think of the children.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLboAXuxWXY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLboAXuxWXY)
Interesting piece in todays times by Dermot Desmond as well http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0916/1224254639563.html (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2009/0916/1224254639563.html)
very interesting article by Desmond but politically a non runner as it means handing a hell of a lot of money to the banks on a sort of double or bust bet.
Quote from: Zapatista on September 16, 2009, 08:09:23 AM
What will you say when your children ask you - why did you do it?
It was the best of bad set of options?
Does the country go bust if we don't have nama. Could we not just round up the bankrupt property developers and inept bankers who got us into this mess and send them abroad to answer for themselves with the people they owe money to.
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 09:48:15 AM
It was the best of bad set of options?
I don't know if the Government have looked at any other options. They say it's the only option but as we know there are other options.
It also depends on what you want to achieve. It might be better to just buy all the empty houses and property of the developers for last years market price and be done with it.
We are really just saving the skins of the banks and the property developers by introducing this legislation.
I worked in the finance department in one of these big property developers for years.
What the banks did was literally throw out money to these companies for every site out there,for machinery and equipment and just didnt put any contingency plan in place for something like a world recession.
When i left the company last november (i would have been laid off in december anyway as i found out later) the company had debt of tens of millions.it had stopped paying its repayments on its asset finance with an agreement to pay interest only in 2009.
It was paying interest only on its property loans and not even touching its capital repayments on these and the main bank it dealt with agreed to all this.
I was chatting an ex colleague who is still working there and he says they are now repaying nothing and the bank is still keeping queit.
This is the exact same situation with the vast majority of construction company and property developer in ireland.
We are now taking over this debt with NAMA and the goverment are saying that the property developers will have to pay.
With what? The companies they own are close to insolvency and a lobby group like CIF will ensure that there members wont have a bumpy ride.
I know from experience that the exact same politicians bringing in this NAMA were wined and dined at functions by the likes of CIF and were given a few quid here and there to keep the gravy train going but thats not really a secret anymore.
This isnt the best option of a bad lot this is the only option which suits the people who got us into this.
What will happen when the banks get rid of this toxic debt from their balance sheets?
The goverment says it will allow them to lend again.WRONG.
THey owe so much money to european banks and investors who provide the capital that they will have to get money back first.
We really are on a slippery slope because the country cant keep borrowing at the level its at.
Colin McCarthy says we are bust and he is dead right.
We dont have a pot to piss in and i think we will only realise this as a nation once the budget is annouced in over two months.
The IMF is waiting at the door and dont be suprised if they intervene before the year is out.
Rant over
That's a superb piece by Dermot Desmond. I couldn't argue with any of it. In fairness he has experience in the area unlike the gimps who are about to bury the country for a century or more with this ridiculous NAMA plan.
Guy - what is NAMA if its not a "double or bust bet"? NAMA will not succeed for many logical reasons and one of them is that the people running have no incentive whatsoever to make it work.
I just pray that something will happen to avoid us falling into this abyss.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 16, 2009, 12:20:43 PM
this ridiculous NAMA plan.
I had to quote that in the title.
Is it rediculous? Will it achieve what the Government want it to achieve? Are they being truthfull when they tell us why they are doing NAMA?
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 16, 2009, 12:20:43 PM
That's a superb piece by Dermot Desmond. I couldn't argue with any of it. In fairness he has experience in the area unlike the gimps who are about to bury the country for a century or more with this ridiculous NAMA plan.
Guy - what is NAMA if its not a "double or bust bet"? NAMA will not succeed for many logical reasons and one of them is that the people running have no incentive whatsoever to make it work.
I just pray that something will happen to avoid us falling into this abyss.
I dont think anyone can forecast how NAMA will do because we dont even know the mechanics of how it will work. Desmond mentioned a figure of 60bn as a cost of NAMA and says it should instead be given to the banks to increase liquidity but would you be happy giving 60bn to the people who administered the whole mess in the first place?
The banks need to start lending fast, we have several big subbies ( turnover 5m plus a year) who have had their credit facilities constantly cut over the last 6 months and they would have very good credit ratings & history but they are getting very close to going to the wall are they cannot pay their suppliers. Things are very close to getting a whole lot worse now!
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 01:48:57 PM
I dont think anyone can forecast how NAMA will do because we dont even know the mechanics of how it will work. Desmond mentioned a figure of 60bn as a cost of NAMA and says it should instead be given to the banks to increase liquidity but would you be happy giving 60bn to the people who administered the whole mess in the first place?
The banks need to start lending fast, we have several big subbies ( turnover 5m plus a year) who have had their credit facilities constantly cut over the last 6 months and they would have very good credit ratings & history but they are getting very close to going to the wall are they cannot pay their suppliers. Things are very close to getting a whole lot worse now!
FF administrated the whole mess.
We do know the proposal and the mechanics of how it works. It is being debated in the Dail today.
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 01:48:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 16, 2009, 12:20:43 PM
That's a superb piece by Dermot Desmond. I couldn't argue with any of it. In fairness he has experience in the area unlike the gimps who are about to bury the country for a century or more with this ridiculous NAMA plan.
Guy - what is NAMA if its not a "double or bust bet"? NAMA will not succeed for many logical reasons and one of them is that the people running have no incentive whatsoever to make it work.
I just pray that something will happen to avoid us falling into this abyss.
I dont think anyone can forecast how NAMA will do because we dont even know the mechanics of how it will work. Desmond mentioned a figure of 60bn as a cost of NAMA and says it should instead be given to the banks to increase liquidity but would you be happy giving 60bn to the people who administered the whole mess in the first place?
The banks need to start lending fast, we have several big subbies ( turnover 5m plus a year) who have had their credit facilities constantly cut over the last 6 months and they would have very good credit ratings & history but they are getting very close to going to the wall are they cannot pay their suppliers. Things are very close to getting a whole lot worse now!
Are we not doing the same with NAMA except civil servants will be trying to clean up a mess they know nothing about? Now I know Desmond has his own agenda but I'd be marginally more confident having bankers (who stand to gain if they are successful) doing the repair work than a quango.
Wee Arthur giving some stick at the moment. Currently suspended for the second time and they haven't even got onto NAMA yet. :D
Lads NAMA is simple. Fianna Fáil who lets not forget are the republican party have it all worked out . This is a secret plot for reunification. Rather than waste Billions on redeveloping Limerick the FF lads will simple ship the entire city north to 5 Billion worth of land the Irish government will soon own up North. Which lets faces at Northern land values is the vast majority of the North. With the influx of south Nationalist a boarder poll will be called and won in 2012. Just in time for the US , EU and IMF to give us Billions in a reintegration fund which will nicely plug the 100 Billion hole we will then have in our budget.
£5 billion of NI assets for NAMA'
The Stormont Assembly was told today that almost £5 billion worth of assets due to be managed by the National Asset Management Agency are in Northern Ireland.
The North's power-sharing administration says it has received assurances from the Minister for Finance, Brian Lenihan, that there will be no 'fire sale' of Northern Ireland assets.
Northern Ministers met their southern counterparts in July, and last week Sammy Wilson held discussions with Brian Lenihan.
Quote from: Zapatista on September 16, 2009, 01:55:13 PM
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 01:48:57 PM
I dont think anyone can forecast how NAMA will do because we dont even know the mechanics of how it will work. Desmond mentioned a figure of 60bn as a cost of NAMA and says it should instead be given to the banks to increase liquidity but would you be happy giving 60bn to the people who administered the whole mess in the first place?
The banks need to start lending fast, we have several big subbies ( turnover 5m plus a year) who have had their credit facilities constantly cut over the last 6 months and they would have very good credit ratings & history but they are getting very close to going to the wall are they cannot pay their suppliers. Things are very close to getting a whole lot worse now!
FF administrated the whole mess.
We do know the proposal and the mechanics of how it works. It is being debated in the Dail today.
No they did not! They have a lot to answer for but it was the banks who lent out the money. We dont know the bsics of how it is going to work!
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 16, 2009, 02:40:34 PM
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 01:48:57 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 16, 2009, 12:20:43 PM
That's a superb piece by Dermot Desmond. I couldn't argue with any of it. In fairness he has experience in the area unlike the gimps who are about to bury the country for a century or more with this ridiculous NAMA plan.
Guy - what is NAMA if its not a "double or bust bet"? NAMA will not succeed for many logical reasons and one of them is that the people running have no incentive whatsoever to make it work.
I just pray that something will happen to avoid us falling into this abyss.
I dont think anyone can forecast how NAMA will do because we dont even know the mechanics of how it will work. Desmond mentioned a figure of 60bn as a cost of NAMA and says it should instead be given to the banks to increase liquidity but would you be happy giving 60bn to the people who administered the whole mess in the first place?
The banks need to start lending fast, we have several big subbies ( turnover 5m plus a year) who have had their credit facilities constantly cut over the last 6 months and they would have very good credit ratings & history but they are getting very close to going to the wall are they cannot pay their suppliers. Things are very close to getting a whole lot worse now!
Are we not doing the same with NAMA except civil servants will be trying to clean up a mess they know nothing about? Now I know Desmond has his own agenda but I'd be marginally more confident having bankers (who stand to gain if they are successful) doing the repair work than a quango.
I have asked lots of people who is actually going to be working for NAMA and nobidy seems to know. They are bound to need a massive workforce if they are to sell off some site/developments and finish off lots more. Thye would have to employ nearly all new staff as 'normal' civil servant would nt have the first clue about the industry.
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Have they identified all the sites/deals/loans which this will cover?Will Carrol be covered?
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Have they identified all the sites/deals/loans which this will cover?Will Carrol be covered?
€24bn of the assets would be purchased from Allied Irish Banks, €28bn from Anglo Irish Bank, €16bn from Bank of Ireland, €1bn from EBS and €8bn from Irish Nationwide.
Not sure if they mentioned Carroll specifically.
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Have they identified all the sites/deals/loans which this will cover?Will Carrol be covered?
How is it you think Carol will be covered?
IM looking at this selfishly!!! The job i am on at the minute has a block on hold until NAMA is resolved, not sure when we will find out ( and what it mean if it is!!)
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
You and Hobbs have investigated this so?
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Have they identified all the sites/deals/loans which this will cover?Will Carrol be covered?
How is it you think Carol will be covered?
I dont think he will, i dont know if he will. Have you anything to add apart from smart comments? Carroll has loads of companies that are not dragged into the ACC issue so maybe you can advise me oh wise one.
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 04:52:57 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
You and Hobbs have investigated this so?
Yep, we hired a Brother Seamus between us. Now must go and add in that disclaimer...
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 04:57:36 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Have they identified all the sites/deals/loans which this will cover?Will Carrol be covered?
How is it you think Carol will be covered?
I dont think he will, i dont know if he will. Have you anything to add apart from smart comments? Carroll has loads of companies that are not dragged into the ACC issue so maybe you can advise me oh wise one.
Sorry I thought you were implying NAMA was some sort of bailout .
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 04:51:09 PM
Quote from: ludermor on September 16, 2009, 04:44:04 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Have they identified all the sites/deals/loans which this will cover?Will Carrol be covered?
How is it you think Carol will be covered?
AIB or BOI will sort him out with ACC and then pass it on to NAMA.
i gotta say i think that this is the best plan on the table at present.....i'd rather take a risk in the hope tha we get out of it over a risk that will drag the arse out of this recession as I am quite bored with it at this stage....and also i dont give a shite about our children paying for it as we can worry about that then but if we have a boom in the mean time we can clear that debt anyway...
At the stage the banks should be allowed to go to the wall. There is no reason to keep them afloat but we are being forced to. Their decline should be managed so that their is not chaos in the Irish banking sector. New banks should be set up to replace them either government banks or privately run institutions. The bad developers should be allowed go bankrupt and legally banned from working in property development and borrowing amounts over one million euro. The Irish bankers who gave them the money should be banned from working in the financial sector. In this way Ireland can say that we have cleaned up our act as a financial, development and banking entity. when the international banking sector come looking for their money they should be told to "go after the people you gave the money to. They are duds, rogue bankers, bankrupt property developers, why did you lend these people so much money." We the Irish government/people did not lend or borrow that money, you lent it and AIB/BoI/Property developers borrowed it.
Of course the international banking sector have a gun to our heads they will give us a bad credit rating and shut us out of the system casuing a lot of proplblems within our liquidity starved economy. The thing is, is the interanational banking community really as together as that? If we took the course of action I duggested, would the international banking community be cutting off its nose to spite its face by giving us a bad credit rating and refusing to lend money to Ireland. Would somebody not break ranks and say, hey why are we not lending money to Ireland when there is a good economy there and people who want to borrow money. So while none of the other international banks are lending money to Ireland one of these banks comes along and breaks the embargo and hoovers up all the money lending business in Ireland. Once the effective boycott is broken the others are left with no choice but to follow suit and take their previous losses in lending money to Ireland on the chin. Problem solved but a risky approach to take.
To the financial experts is the above scenario possible? Or is it just possible in my deranged mind?
Quote from: Capt Pat on September 16, 2009, 08:45:24 PM
At the stage the banks should be allowed to go to the wall. There is no reason to keep them afloat but we are being forced to. Their decline should be managed so that their is not chaos in the Irish banking sector. New banks should be set up to replace them either government banks or privately run institutions. The bad developers should be allowed go bankrupt and legally banned from working in property development and borrowing amounts over one million euro. The Irish bankers who gave them the money should be banned from working in the financial sector. In this way Ireland can say that we have cleaned up our act as a financial, development and banking entity. when the international banking sector come looking for their money they should be told to "go after the people you gave the money to. They are duds, rogue bankers, bankrupt property developers, why did you lend these people so much money." We the Irish government/people did not lend or borrow that money, you lent it and AIB/BoI/Property developers borrowed it.
Of course the international banking sector have a gun to our heads they will give us a bad credit rating and shut us out of the system casuing a lot of proplblems within our liquidity staerrved economy
in a perfect world that would be the correct course of action but i think most just want to get out of this mess and that way would take us 20+ years to recover....
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Market value of 47Bn :D :D :D :D :D :D As valued by Irish estate agents, who as we all know would never have a cested interest.
Why not let them sell the assets for the 47Bn then and sure we'll pump in the difference, just the 7Bn, which we'll take in equity. Surely that would lessen the exposure to us taxpayers?
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 16, 2009, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Market value of 47Bn :D :D :D :D :D :D As valued by Irish estate agents, who as we all know would never have a cested interest.
Why not let them sell the assets for the 47Bn then and sure we'll pump in the difference, just the 7Bn, which we'll take in equity. Surely that would lessen the exposure to us taxpayers?
A fire sale would lead to a total market crash.
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 10:55:46 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 16, 2009, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Market value of 47Bn :D :D :D :D :D :D As valued by Irish estate agents, who as we all know would never have a cested interest.
Why not let them sell the assets for the 47Bn then and sure we'll pump in the difference, just the 7Bn, which we'll take in equity. Surely that would lessen the exposure to us taxpayers?
A fire sale would lead to a total market crash.
you mean the individual valuations add up to 47Bn :D :D :D, but collectively they add up to about 8Bn - sounds a bit like the Dubs ;)
That aside, somebody better tell lenny quick, because, God love him, he's happy to run with the 47Bn, thinking it is realisable.
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 16, 2009, 11:16:07 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 16, 2009, 10:55:46 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 16, 2009, 10:30:40 PM
Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on September 16, 2009, 04:41:17 PM
NAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Market value of 47Bn :D :D :D :D :D :D As valued by Irish estate agents, who as we all know would never have a cested interest.
Why not let them sell the assets for the 47Bn then and sure we'll pump in the difference, just the 7Bn, which we'll take in equity. Surely that would lessen the exposure to us taxpayers?
A fire sale would lead to a total market crash.
you mean the individual valuations add up to 47Bn :D :D :D, but collectively they add up to about 8Bn - sounds a bit like the Dubs ;)
That aside, somebody better tell lenny quick, because, God love him, he's happy to run with the 47Bn, thinking it is realisable.
No I mean if you say to the banks go out and get what you can for assets the prices with spiral lower and lower.
''''''''you mean the individual valuations add up to 47Bn :D :D :D, but collectively they add up to about 8Bn - sounds a bit like the Dubs ;) ''''''''''
Brilliant bogball
You see Gnevin is a true believer "" in Lenny he trusts""
Fair play to the Sinn Fein lads for providing such fun and games in the Dail yesterday ::).
What utter clowns. A shambolic excuse for a political party. At least FG and Labour got stuck into them - and rightly so.
QuoteNAMA paying 54bn for a 77bn loan book, market value is 47bn (which will go down further), difference of 7bn, JOKE!!!
Lads 9bn of that 77billlion is rolled over interest and has been included on the "asset" side of the equation - so in fact the wer'e paying 54bn for a loans of 68bn which have been "valued" at 47bn - riddle me that one.
By the way anyone want to take bets on when these great banking institutions will actually start lending again?
Have I got this right?
Bad loans from banks = Approx 77bn
Market value on assets = Approx 46bn
We buy bad loans for = Approx 54bn
We borrow another 54bn. We pay 54bn for something the banks loaned 77bn for which is worth 46bn. But we don't actually get the 46bn woth of assets as we are only buying the bad loans. We would need to wait untill the assets can be sold by the agents for us to be repaid back. If assets are sold and money paid back to NAMA it won't go towrads our National Debt but will be loaned to finish projects and stimulate the market again. In the meantime though, the banks have 54bn (a loss of 23bn) which we hope they will use to loan to business. So every man woman and child in the country owes 54bn between them to the bank we borrow the 54bn from (is it the ECB?).
If this fails we will be patying back 54bn. If this works we will be paying back 54bn and have created the same situation that has got us here in the first place.
BOI shares trading at 3.23 - 3.25 up 30 odd today and up from a low of 12c in March 09 (just before NAMA was conceived of).
AIB shares trading at 3.32 - 3.38 up 70 odd today and up from a low of circa 20c in March 09.
Surely that tells us all we need to know about this 'ridiculous NAMA plan'.
I still think these shares have to major sells as their current valuations would appear irrational given the write-offs coming down the line, and just wait until residential loans start hitting trouble, which will lag the other problem loans.
Quote from: Hound on September 17, 2009, 07:07:22 AM
Fair play to the Sinn Fein lads for providing such fun and games in the Dail yesterday ::).
What utter clowns. A shambolic excuse for a political party. At least FG and Labour got stuck into them - and rightly so.
I thought it was brilliant. It made people realise what was actually happening yesterday. After that stunt the entire media were talking about how NAMA of importance to the lives of us and future generations and that it shouldn't go by without a National debate. NAMA is probably the biggest gamble in Ireland since 1916 and will effect the Country for years to come. In fact in accordance with the Irish constitution we should be having a referendum on NAMA.
If Enda was that worried about missing out on debate perhaps the Dail should have started back two weeks ago. Labour had nothing to offer the debate and would have been better thrown out along with SF.
Quote from: Zapatista on September 17, 2009, 08:32:28 AM
Quote from: Hound on September 17, 2009, 07:07:22 AM
Fair play to the Sinn Fein lads for providing such fun and games in the Dail yesterday ::).
What utter clowns. A shambolic excuse for a political party. At least FG and Labour got stuck into them - and rightly so.
I thought it was brilliant. It made people realise what was actually happening yesterday. After that stunt the entire media were talking about how NAMA of importance to the lives of us and future generations and that it shouldn't go by without a National debate.
You couldn't even understand him he should of just stood up and shouted rabble , rabble for 40 minutes. The entire media where talking about how important it was before the SF lad achieved nothing or do you think RTÉ and Newstalk just changed their schedule after they heard the SF rant?
Quote from: Gnevin on September 17, 2009, 08:57:57 AM
You couldn't even understand him he should of just stood up and shouted rabble , rabble for 40 minutes. The entire media where talking about how important it was before the SF lad achieved nothing or do you think RTÉ and Newstalk just changed their schedule after they heard the SF rant?
Newstalk definatley changed the mood of their discussion. Morgan captured the mood of the Nation and related to Cowen in the Dail. Anywhere else at an other time it would have been ignored. It had more effect on Cowen and FF than any march or protest could have. It was a stunt and the listeners of RTE and Newstalk perked up and paid attention. I have wanted to challenge Cowen on his lies for a long time but have not had the oportunity and would have been ignored anyway. Morgan used the best weapon available to challenge Cowen, the Dail, NAMA and a Mandate.
FF have lied to the people for years from the Dail. Bertie Ahern lied to the people from the Dail. John O'Donaghue uses his place in the dail to protect himself. McDowell used it to accuse innocent people of crimes. Abuse of the Dail has been happening for years. It should not be a place to protect people Guilty of lies and I think Morgan was right to challenge them in the DAil.
Morgan did no more than make a total eejit of himself and give people something to laugh about. He was called a clown on RTE, and that was the perfect description.
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 17, 2009, 08:31:13 AM
BOI shares trading at 3.23 - 3.25 up 30 odd today and up from a low of 12c in March 09 (just before NAMA was conceived of).
AIB shares trading at 3.32 - 3.38 up 70 odd today and up from a low of circa 20c in March 09.
Surely that tells us all we need to know about this 'ridiculous NAMA plan'.
I still think these shares have to major sells as their current valuations would appear irrational given the write-offs coming down the line, and just wait until residential loans start hitting trouble, which will lag the other problem loans.
Exactly. The banks are sorted and we, the taxpayers, are fooked. The market is laughing at us.
By the way on the SF guy - a total clown who achieved nothing. He only highlighted what we knew already - SF are a joke party with no policies and no answers.
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 17, 2009, 11:51:35 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 17, 2009, 08:31:13 AM
BOI shares trading at 3.23 - 3.25 up 30 odd today and up from a low of 12c in March 09 (just before NAMA was conceived of).
AIB shares trading at 3.32 - 3.38 up 70 odd today and up from a low of circa 20c in March 09.
Surely that tells us all we need to know about this 'ridiculous NAMA plan'.
I still think these shares have to major sells as their current valuations would appear irrational given the write-offs coming down the line, and just wait until residential loans start hitting trouble, which will lag the other problem loans.
Exactly. The banks are sorted and we, the taxpayers, are fooked. The market is laughing at us.
By the way on the SF guy - a total clown who achieved nothing. He only highlighted what we knew already - SF are a joke party with no policies and no answers.
how exactly are the tax payer fooked?
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 17, 2009, 11:51:35 AM
SF are a joke party with no policies and no answers.
Maybe you just haven't seen their policies. Answers to what, the economy? If so yes they do, you should look them up (they may not be the right answers but they are atleast as accurate as NAMA). Not only that but they were asking the questions about stability on the economy before everyone else. They proposed a State bank back in the 90s. That's 12 years before Labour proposed it and 11 before FF did it. None of this makes them right but it does make them relevant. I don't think they could run the economy but I do think the could be a helpfull addition when its being discussed.
You can think they are a joke and that's fine, I think FF are a joke. The rest you made up though.
FF are also a joke, I agree.
McWilliams in Indo yesterday.
Entertaining but he hits nail on the head
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/were-the-hostages-to-fortune-in-nama-drama-1887179.html
Quote from: Zapatista on September 17, 2009, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 17, 2009, 11:51:35 AM
SF are a joke party with no policies and no answers.
Maybe you just haven't seen their policies. Answers to what, the economy? If so yes they do, you should look them up (they may not be the right answers but they are atleast as accurate as NAMA). Not only that but they were asking the questions about stability on the economy before everyone else. They proposed a State bank back in the 90s. That's 12 years before Labour proposed it and 11 before FF did it. None of this makes them right but it does make them relevant. I don't think they could run the economy but I do think the could be a helpfull addition when its being discussed.
You can think they are a joke and that's fine, I think FF are a joke. The rest you made up though.
It's not only state banks our socialist comrades in SF have proposed in the past.
Quote from: Zapatista on September 17, 2009, 02:23:23 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 17, 2009, 11:51:35 AM
SF are a joke party with no policies and no answers.
Maybe you just haven't seen their policies. Answers to what, the economy? If so yes they do, you should look them up (they may not be the right answers but they are atleast as accurate as NAMA). Not only that but they were asking the questions about stability on the economy before everyone else. They proposed a State bank back in the 90s. That's 12 years before Labour proposed it and 11 before FF did it. None of this makes them right but it does make them relevant. I don't think they could run the economy but I do think the could be a helpfull addition when its being discussed.
You can think they are a joke and that's fine, I think FF are a joke. The rest you made up though.
We need a strong left as regulation in world economies is required. I don't believe either SF or Labour have the answer.
Why do I feel all Marxist and dirty after that statement?
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 12:05:19 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 17, 2009, 11:51:35 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 17, 2009, 08:31:13 AM
BOI shares trading at 3.23 - 3.25 up 30 odd today and up from a low of 12c in March 09 (just before NAMA was conceived of).
AIB shares trading at 3.32 - 3.38 up 70 odd today and up from a low of circa 20c in March 09.
Surely that tells us all we need to know about this 'ridiculous NAMA plan'.
I still think these shares have to major sells as their current valuations would appear irrational given the write-offs coming down the line, and just wait until residential loans start hitting trouble, which will lag the other problem loans.
Exactly. The banks are sorted and we, the taxpayers, are fooked. The market is laughing at us.
By the way on the SF guy - a total clown who achieved nothing. He only highlighted what we knew already - SF are a joke party with no policies and no answers.
how exactly are the tax payer fooked?
anyone able to tell me how the tax payer is focked with this plan?
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 04:06:25 PM
anyone able to tell me how the tax payer is focked with this plan?
We are paying more than it's worth. We will sell back to the developers as soon as (if) the assets regain strength for them to sell back to us at inflated prices. Either way we pay now as tax payers and then we pay again to buy property we just owned.
POLL ADDED
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 04:06:25 PM
anyone able to tell me how the tax payer is focked with this plan?
Here's a clue Tankie:
(When you look at this imagine if we need to borrow money for anything else ::))
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2462/3682289139_1352fac66e_b.jpg)
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 04:06:25 PM
anyone able to tell me how the tax payer is focked with this plan?
The whole thing is predicated on a quick bounce-back of the property market.
It isn't gonna happen. Even if the country's finances hadn't imploded and unemployment surged, the property market was going to collapse anyway.
All those apartments in Leitrim, hotels in Longford and half built estates in Roscommon that we are now saddled with are as useful as tits on a bull.
One of the best spins used is "when the property market recovers" :D :D
It has recovererd. Recover means to return to a normal state. For these spinners it seems to mean to return to mad crazy high prices of 2007. Property was never worth what is was valued at in 2007 yet this is were they want to recover to. And so the circle of ffeconomic continues. Is it any wonder recession is a normal part of an economic cycle. :DThey have designed it to be like this.
but whats is the better option? from what i read the FG option would take years to come in and may not work and nationalisation would be crazy as nody would lend to us....is this not the best of a bad bunch?
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 09:14:55 PM
but whats is the better option? from what i read the FG option would take years to come in and may not work and nationalisation would be crazy as nody would lend to us....is this not the best of a bad bunch?
No. FG's could be brought in very quickly as we already own a bank and it would be a matter of transfering the bad loans. Something which NAMA has to do anyway. NAMA may not work. If you thimk it's the best of a bad bunch then this Country is in serious trouble 9Which it is). The least we can expect is a good plan to help us out of this mess.
The people who think it is best of a bad bunch are Fianna failers and they believe what ever the biffo and lenny say , and they will vote for them every time
I honestly don't know if it's good or bad. Every second one says it's either good or bad.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on September 17, 2009, 09:45:04 PM
I honestly don't know if it's good or bad. Every second one says it's either good or bad.
Much of it depends on how you will benefit/loss from NAMA. The rest will back party lines.
Quote from: fearbrags on September 17, 2009, 09:32:47 PM
The people who think it is best of a bad bunch are Fianna failers and they believe what ever the biffo and lenny say , and they will vote for them every time
Biffo rewckons it is on the best advice from his advisors. These same advisors he blames for the crash ;D
We( the taxpayers) in effect buy €47,000,000,000 worth of property for €55,000,000,000 at a time when property prices are still falling to reach the proper level for the emptiest Country in Western Europe.
The people who might be buying houses in the future are being told by IBEC/Bankers/FF that they have to be paid less.("We" need to stop paying ourselves so high...they tell us. Yet only the self employed,Company Directors and TDs actually can pay themselves. ::) ::)).
Surely the only outcome then can be that house prices have to drop to a level where people can truly afford to buy them before there is a "proprty market" again.
So we the taxpayers have paid the baks €55bn of borrowed money for property that we will sell for maybe €30bn.
Be afraid ...............be very afraid.
after watching Prime Time I hink NAMA i sthe best of a bad lot....i thought the guy from Davys was very good
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on September 17, 2009, 08:01:38 PM
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 04:06:25 PM
anyone able to tell me how the tax payer is focked with this plan?
The whole thing is predicated on a quick bounce-back of the property market.
It isn't gonna happen. Even if the country's finances hadn't imploded and unemployment surged, the property market was going to collapse anyway.
All those apartments in Leitrim, hotels in Longford and half built estates in Roscommon that we are now saddled with are as useful as tits on a bull.
Not really . Surely the point of NAMA is NAMA has time to wait for these assets to recover and generally property climbs ever higher , were as banks don't have the time to wait.
Quote from: Rossfan on September 17, 2009, 10:02:55 PM
We( the taxpayers) in effect buy €47,000,000,000 worth of property for €55,000,000,000 at a time when property prices are still falling to reach the proper level for the emptiest Country in Western Europe.
The people who might be buying houses in the future are being told by IBEC/Bankers/FF that they have to be paid less.("We" need to stop paying ourselves so high...they tell us. Yet only the self employed,Company Directors and TDs actually can pay themselves. ::) ::)).
Surely the only outcome then can be that house prices have to drop to a level where people can truly afford to buy them before there is a "proprty market" again.
So we the taxpayers have paid the baks €55bn of borrowed money for property that we will sell for maybe €30bn.
Be afraid ...............be very afraid.
With one of the fastest growing populations . These people will need to live some where .
If Cork win the All Ireland I hear they have a new song:
By the NAMA of my own lovely Lee. ;)
The latest Brothers Grimm fairy tale: the current value of these loans is €47Bn. Yeah, right.
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 10:42:11 PM
after watching Prime Time I hink NAMA i sthe best of a bad lot....i thought the guy from Davys was very good
Davy's until recently were part of BOI, BOI's survival depends on NAMA being implemented.
That aside, we're accepting the valuation of 47BN as being accurate, for assets which could not achieve that in the open market (as pointed out by gnevin earlier in the thread). So taxpayer is giving a minimum of 7bn extra for them, if the assets were to recover above the 55bn, the taxpayer would still lose as the taxpayer would be the person funding that increase in value. As of now, we could pay probably 10/12 bn to buy the banks outright, that would encompass everything they own - we then hear that nobody would lend to them - that is already the case and will be with NAMA, ffs the only people willing to cash in the govt bonds is the ECB. NAMA is a fictional device to try and pretend our national debt is lower than it actually is. I said months ago that my problem with all this is that FF have decided to run with it without looking at the alternatives at all. They rejct nationalisation (which was the swedish model) whilst trying to pretend that they're invoking the swedish model (the then swedish pm has been on irish radio decrying nama), they reject fg's good bank proposal presuming it to be unworkable (it may well be), but NAMA is only workable by inventing fantasy values. NAMA is dependent on the bubble picking up again. There are many posters who feel that FF has an ulterior motive for running with nama, i'm not so sure, but it gets more believable the more they ignore everyone else.
The only 'independent' people I've heard in favour of it have been the brokers and seriously, would you trust them??
Basicallly the taxpayer is investing 47Bn (our annual income is 32bn) on a bet that if it were to come up would harm the taxpayers.
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 10:42:11 PM
after watching Prime Time I hink NAMA i sthe best of a bad lot....i thought the guy from Davys was very good
Davy's until recently were part of BOI, BOI's survival depends on NAMA being implemented.
That aside, we're accepting the valuation of 47BN as being accurate, for assets which could not achieve that in the open market (as pointed out by gnevin earlier in the thread). So taxpayer is giving a minimum of 7bn extra for them, if the assets were to recover above the 55bn, the taxpayer would still lose as the taxpayer would be the person funding that increase in value. As of now, we could pay probably 10/12 bn to buy the banks outright, that would encompass everything they own - we then hear that nobody would lend to them - that is already the case and will be with NAMA, ffs the only people willing to cash in the govt bonds is the ECB. NAMA is a fictional device to try and pretend our national debt is lower than it actually is. I said months ago that my problem with all this is that FF have decided to run with it without looking at the alternatives at all. They rejct nationalisation (which was the swedish model) whilst trying to pretend that they're invoking the swedish model (the then swedish pm has been on irish radio decrying nama), they reject fg's good bank proposal presuming it to be unworkable (it may well be), but NAMA is only workable by inventing fantasy values. NAMA is dependent on the bubble picking up again. There are many posters who feel that FF has an ulterior motive for running with nama, i'm not so sure, but it gets more believable the more they ignore everyone else.
The only 'independent' people I've heard in favour of it have been the brokers and seriously, would you trust them??
Basicallly the taxpayer is investing 47Bn (our annual income is 32bn) on a bet that if it were to come up would harm the taxpayers.
the guy from UCD couldnt give a better alternative...all the options are poor but atleast the ECB is backing this one...in regard to property i do believe it will go back up as you have people buy at the moment as they believe its rock bottom and what about all the people on that had planned on buying property? i'm sur ethey are still going to buy...yes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
""" All those apartments in Leitrim, hotels in Longford and half built estates in Roscommon that we are now saddled with are as useful as tits on a bull.
Not really . Surely the point of NAMA is NAMA has time to wait for these assets to recover and generally property climbs ever higher , were as banks don't have the time to wait.""""
You need to go down west to see where some of these estates are , There is no employment close to these areas , most people think that these houses will have to be knocked .
Where there may be a market for houses in Dublin, Galway, Athlone etc in the future
These houses were built in disadvantage areas for a tax relief for landlords in Dublin ( a Bertie scheme} which was approved by the of goverment/co councils , developers and banks.
No body seemed to wonder who was going to live there and where they were going to get work.
Quote from: Tankie on September 18, 2009, 01:24:10 AM
the guy from UCD couldnt give a better alternative...all the options are poor but atleast the ECB is backing this one...in regard to property i do believe it will go back up as you have people buy at the moment as they believe its rock bottom and what about all the people on that had planned on buying property? i'm sur ethey are still going to buy...yes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
The only backing the ECB are given NAMA is in loans. Something that a bank does. The ECB are a bank and they know that the Irish StAte can never default on this. Every man woman and Child will have to work to repay them with interest. This is business not the ECB backing NAMA. Either way the ECB get paid.
Quote from: Zapatista on September 18, 2009, 07:41:36 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 18, 2009, 01:24:10 AM
the guy from UCD couldnt give a better alternative...all the options are poor but atleast the ECB is backing this one...in regard to property i do believe it will go back up as you have people buy at the moment as they believe its rock bottom and what about all the people on that had planned on buying property? i'm sur ethey are still going to buy...yes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
The only backing the ECB are given NAMA is in loans. Something that a bank does. The ECB are a bank and they know that the Irish StAte can never default on this. Every man woman and Child will have to work to repay them with interest. This is business not the ECB backing NAMA. Either way the ECB get paid.
because we're in the euro the ecb will financially back whatever we come up with, however as we're now beholden to them, hopefully they'll place similar restrictions on us as the IMF would.
The ECB said NAMA cold work in conjunction with temporary nationalisation and that NAMA was dependent on the valuations being used and that this was an area of great concern for them.
Quote from: Tankie on September 18, 2009, 01:24:10 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 10:42:11 PM
after watching Prime Time I hink NAMA i sthe best of a bad lot....i thought the guy from Davys was very good
Davy's until recently were part of BOI, BOI's survival depends on NAMA being implemented.
That aside, we're accepting the valuation of 47BN as being accurate, for assets which could not achieve that in the open market (as pointed out by gnevin earlier in the thread). So taxpayer is giving a minimum of 7bn extra for them, if the assets were to recover above the 55bn, the taxpayer would still lose as the taxpayer would be the person funding that increase in value. As of now, we could pay probably 10/12 bn to buy the banks outright, that would encompass everything they own - we then hear that nobody would lend to them - that is already the case and will be with NAMA, ffs the only people willing to cash in the govt bonds is the ECB. NAMA is a fictional device to try and pretend our national debt is lower than it actually is. I said months ago that my problem with all this is that FF have decided to run with it without looking at the alternatives at all. They rejct nationalisation (which was the swedish model) whilst trying to pretend that they're invoking the swedish model (the then swedish pm has been on irish radio decrying nama), they reject fg's good bank proposal presuming it to be unworkable (it may well be), but NAMA is only workable by inventing fantasy values. NAMA is dependent on the bubble picking up again. There are many posters who feel that FF has an ulterior motive for running with nama, i'm not so sure, but it gets more believable the more they ignore everyone else.
The only 'independent' people I've heard in favour of it have been the brokers and seriously, would you trust them??
Basicallly the taxpayer is investing 47Bn (our annual income is 32bn) on a bet that if it were to come up would harm the taxpayers.
the guy from UCD couldnt give a better alternative...all the options are poor but atleast the ECB is backing this one...in regard to property i do believe it will go back up as you have people buy at the moment as they believe its rock bottom and what about all the people on that had planned on buying property? i'm sur ethey are still going to buy...yes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
Property prices would need to rise by a lot more than 10% for us to get out of this. Firstly you're assuming that the 47Bn is in some way accurate, secondly you're ignoring inflation and the interest the state will have to pay to the bond holders, thirdly, since when did 10% of 47 equal the 7bn difference between 54 and 47?
As many posters and economists have pointed out, our property prices may well have a way to go yet before they're anywhere near the bottom, our prices are still way above the long term average for property prices. We also may be on our way into a crisis in residential mortgages, people lose jobs and income is cut via taxation and levies etc, this spirals into lower prices, more job losses etc etc etc
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 08:39:44 AM
Property prices would need to rise by a lot more than 10% for us to get out of this.
And on our way back into it.
Here's a quote attributed to Einstein:
"The thinking it took to get us into this mess is not the same thinking that is going to get us out of it."
or as expressed in today's letters to the Times:
Madam, – I have studied the speeches and done the sums. The main problem we face with Nama is neither financial nor economic but a very human one.
We are being told by a Government that is distrusted to save those who, along with it, have ruined our country, namely the banks and developers, because it is in our best interests.
This gruesome logic dictates that we can't help ourselves without helping them. This may, unfortunately, be true but it is sickening to accept. – Yours, etc,
SHEILA HANNON,
Naas,
Co Kildare.
I hope and half expect that nama wont destroy us,
but I agree with Dermot desmonds article and most of his opinions.
tying up liquidity , securing more civil service public sector jobs on a tribunal type thing thats never going to give and answer but will only protect banks and the civil service guys working on this - is not the best bet for us.
DD's idea that the banks have to have a fee to the Gov for this security is a good one. I still have not heard of something like this being guaranteed or even asked of the banks.
banks are willing to lend out to safe customers in mortgages, but are still wary of business.
The lack of liquidity could very well bring us down, and tying up our cash and thereby tying up banks ability to lend money and keep the economy afloat (jobs and local economy) - well thats an ever descending spiral.
I hope that is avoided, but it will be easy to fall into this.
Nama ties one hand behind the back of industry.
Quoteyes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
To expect a rise 10% from todays value is optimistic to say the least.
In some places they have another 20-30% to fall
The "bargain" houses recently sold in midlands for 100k were at least 25% over valued at that.
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 08:39:44 AM
Quote from: Zapatista on September 18, 2009, 07:41:36 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 18, 2009, 01:24:10 AM
the guy from UCD couldnt give a better alternative...all the options are poor but atleast the ECB is backing this one...in regard to property i do believe it will go back up as you have people buy at the moment as they believe its rock bottom and what about all the people on that had planned on buying property? i'm sur ethey are still going to buy...yes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
The only backing the ECB are given NAMA is in loans. Something that a bank does. The ECB are a bank and they know that the Irish StAte can never default on this. Every man woman and Child will have to work to repay them with interest. This is business not the ECB backing NAMA. Either way the ECB get paid.
because we're in the euro the ecb will financially back whatever we come up with, however as we're now beholden to them, hopefully they'll place similar restrictions on us as the IMF would.
The ECB said NAMA cold work in conjunction with temporary nationalisation and that NAMA was dependent on the valuations being used and that this was an area of great concern for them.Quote from: Tankie on September 18, 2009, 01:24:10 AM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 12:56:40 AM
Quote from: Tankie on September 17, 2009, 10:42:11 PM
after watching Prime Time I hink NAMA i sthe best of a bad lot....i thought the guy from Davys was very good
Davy's until recently were part of BOI, BOI's survival depends on NAMA being implemented.
That aside, we're accepting the valuation of 47BN as being accurate, for assets which could not achieve that in the open market (as pointed out by gnevin earlier in the thread). So taxpayer is giving a minimum of 7bn extra for them, if the assets were to recover above the 55bn, the taxpayer would still lose as the taxpayer would be the person funding that increase in value. As of now, we could pay probably 10/12 bn to buy the banks outright, that would encompass everything they own - we then hear that nobody would lend to them - that is already the case and will be with NAMA, ffs the only people willing to cash in the govt bonds is the ECB. NAMA is a fictional device to try and pretend our national debt is lower than it actually is. I said months ago that my problem with all this is that FF have decided to run with it without looking at the alternatives at all. They rejct nationalisation (which was the swedish model) whilst trying to pretend that they're invoking the swedish model (the then swedish pm has been on irish radio decrying nama), they reject fg's good bank proposal presuming it to be unworkable (it may well be), but NAMA is only workable by inventing fantasy values. NAMA is dependent on the bubble picking up again. There are many posters who feel that FF has an ulterior motive for running with nama, i'm not so sure, but it gets more believable the more they ignore everyone else.
The only 'independent' people I've heard in favour of it have been the brokers and seriously, would you trust them??
Basicallly the taxpayer is investing 47Bn (our annual income is 32bn) on a bet that if it were to come up would harm the taxpayers.
the guy from UCD couldnt give a better alternative...all the options are poor but atleast the ECB is backing this one...in regard to property i do believe it will go back up as you have people buy at the moment as they believe its rock bottom and what about all the people on that had planned on buying property? i'm sur ethey are still going to buy...yes it may not go back to boom prices but i can see it rising by 10% of current prices in the next 10 - 15 years...
Property prices would need to rise by a lot more than 10% for us to get out of this. Firstly you're assuming that the 47Bn is in some way accurate, secondly you're ignoring inflation and the interest the state will have to pay to the bond holders, thirdly, since when did 10% of 47 equal the 7bn difference between 54 and 47?
As many posters and economists have pointed out, our property prices may well have a way to go yet before they're anywhere near the bottom, our prices are still way above the long term average for property prices. We also may be on our way into a crisis in residential mortgages, people lose jobs and income is cut via taxation and levies etc, this spirals into lower prices, more job losses etc etc etc
the 10% increase on todays prices over 10 - 20 years is what they say will pay for this...i can see this happening, yes they will drop alot more but they will not keep dropping...also you then have the fact if this is going to cost the tax payer money the government can then levy the banks and get the money back tha way. IMO nationalistion is the worst option as it means that we take all these loans on our books today and would lead to a serious credit problem for the banks and the government...NAMA is not ideal but we need to ensure credit flows if we are to get out of this mess and i would rather take a NAMA risk over a nationalisation risk....they are all risks at the end of the day as the whole thing is a total mess...
I thought NAMA was a good idea but once I saw Primetime last night and saw some of the schemes that were half built and where they were, I'm not so sure.
Builiding a hotel in the asshole of nowhere in Leitrim or Longford might have sounded a good idea a one time, but now it looks plain silly.
We all lost perspective along the way and I'm not so sure NAMA will break even at all.
I don't agree with those who say that prices still need to fall by 30-40% and that the 10% appreciation over 10% years will never happen. It might. Truth is - nobody knows.
Anyone seen the latest Yoyo/Sterling exchange rate? The euro and pound could be hitting parity soon and not only will that have further detrimental effects on the southern economy, but will also make the NAMA valuations look massively overvalued. But don't worry lads, we can all vote 'Yes to Lisbon' and be saved!
30% haircut my arse. ::)
What are the arrangements for the anti-NAMA rally on Saturday in Dublin? Garden of Remembrance at what time? I think the march then goes by the Dáil and finishes up at our bank HQ on the Green.
I hope to fcuk the Greens wake up and pull the plug on NAMA and this government. This countries future lies in their hands IMO. Our Tanaiste thinks that Einstein formulated the theory of evolution ffs >:( http://www.independent.ie/national-news/coughlans-no-einstein-after-gaffe-at-smart-economy-launch-1890227.html (http://www.independent.ie/national-news/coughlans-no-einstein-after-gaffe-at-smart-economy-launch-1890227.html) although she did refer to the Greens as "The Vegetables", which she may be right on if they don't pull out of government..
'Calamity Coughlan' :D
Here is another quote from her yesterday
Tanaiste Mary Coughlan insisted the share jumps were not evidence that NAMA amounted to little more than a bailout for banks. "It is the market that determines -- it is not politicians who determine (share values)," she said.
I think that NAMA had some thing to do with the share price increase of both AIB and BOI yesterday
Couldn't the Biffo demote her or just keep her quiet or something
Quote from: magpie seanie on September 18, 2009, 11:20:35 AM
What are the arrangements for the anti-NAMA rally on Saturday in Dublin? Garden of Remembrance at what time? I think the march then goes by the Dáil and finishes up at our bank HQ on the Green.
I think it's on the link on the opening post.
From: http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/gormley-accuses-kenny-of-being-unable-to-count-426899.html
A war of words has broken out between the leaders of the Green Party and Fine Gael over Nama.
John Gormley has accused Enda Kenny of being "unable to count" after the Fine Gael leader said taxpayers will bear 95% of the risk under the Government's bad bank plan.
Deputy Kenny said banks are getting too good a deal at the taxpayers' risk.
But Minister Gormley has rubbished the claims.
"That is absolute nonsense. This is something Enda Kenny said yesterday and I'm afraid Enda can't count or maybe he just doesn't understand what Professor Patrick Honohan was putting forward.
"What Patrick Honohan was referring to, and has in fact endorsed is risk-sharing in relation to the premium, that is the 15% uplift.
"The taxpayer is completely protected. We have gotten exactly what we wanted."
Whats this last bit about and how is the taxpayer completely protected?
Had to delete the post. The more I looked at it the more I confused myself.
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
Here is another quote from her yesterday
Tanaiste Mary Coughlan insisted the share jumps were not evidence that NAMA amounted to little more than a bailout for banks. "It is the market that determines -- it is not politicians who determine (share values)," she said.
I think that NAMA had some thing to do with the share price increase of both AIB and BOI yesterday
Couldn't the Biffo demote her or just keep her quiet or something
What an imbicile! Did she not think that the politicians giving the banks €55 Billion could influence the market?
GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 05:03:38 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
Here is another quote from her yesterday
Tanaiste Mary Coughlan insisted the share jumps were not evidence that NAMA amounted to little more than a bailout for banks. "It is the market that determines -- it is not politicians who determine (share values)," she said.
I think that NAMA had some thing to do with the share price increase of both AIB and BOI yesterday
Couldn't the Biffo demote her or just keep her quiet or something
What an imbicile! Did she not think that the politicians giving the banks €55 Billion could influence the market?
GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.
Well you'd be very wrong . I don't support FF. With regard NAMA and other issues the opposition offer no real alternatives . What would your preferred option be to rescue the banks? Enda's bad bank?
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 05:03:38 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 01:50:59 PM
Here is another quote from her yesterday
Tanaiste Mary Coughlan insisted the share jumps were not evidence that NAMA amounted to little more than a bailout for banks. "It is the market that determines -- it is not politicians who determine (share values)," she said.
I think that NAMA had some thing to do with the share price increase of both AIB and BOI yesterday
Couldn't the Biffo demote her or just keep her quiet or something
What an imbicile! Did she not think that the politicians giving the banks €55 Billion could influence the market?
GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.
i have never once voted for FF but i would strongly consider it now as the opposition offer no plan and are only playing to the crowd and not what i expect from opposition....and just because I support NAMA i think you are going a bit far saying i would be a FF man.
""GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.""'
They may deny it but on reading their posts this is very obvious typical Fianna Fail heads
No body else can run the country but them
Or else the have Shares in AIb or BOI
Having said Enda Kenny might not be a great politician ,But he is a very lucky one , If he had won the last election (and if he was any good he would have) Fianna Fail would be Hammering him now saying it was all his fault.
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 07:11:33 PM
""GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.""'
They may deny it but on reading their posts this is very obvious typical Fianna Fail heads
No body else can run the country but them
Or else the have Shares in AIb or BOI
Having said Enda Kenny might not be a great politician ,But he is a very lucky one , If he had won the last election (and if he was any good he would have) Fianna Fail would be Hammering him now saying it was all his fault.
Which alternative do you support so? Bad bank? Nationalisation ?
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 07:20:31 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 07:11:33 PM
""GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.""'
They may deny it but on reading their posts this is very obvious typical Fianna Fail heads
No body else can run the country but them
Or else the have Shares in AIb or BOI
Having said Enda Kenny might not be a great politician ,But he is a very lucky one , If he had won the last election (and if he was any good he would have) Fianna Fail would be Hammering him now saying it was all his fault.
Which alternative do you support so? Bad bank? Nationalisation ?
Enda's plan is a good bank. FFs plan is for the bank bank AKA NAMA.
Funny how you both made exactly the same mistake. ;D
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 07:39:37 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 07:20:31 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 07:11:33 PM
""GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.""'
They may deny it but on reading their posts this is very obvious typical Fianna Fail heads
No body else can run the country but them
Or else the have Shares in AIb or BOI
Having said Enda Kenny might not be a great politician ,But he is a very lucky one , If he had won the last election (and if he was any good he would have) Fianna Fail would be Hammering him now saying it was all his fault.
Which alternative do you support so? Bad bank? Nationalisation ?
Enda's plan is a good bank. FFs plan is for the bank bank AKA NAMA.
Funny how you both made exactly the same mistake. ;D
And once you've created a good bank what do you do with the rest? It's a bad bank
http://www.finegael.org/news/a/1097/article/
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 07:42:55 PM
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 07:39:37 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 07:20:31 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 07:11:33 PM
""GNevin/Tankie, we all accept that you will support FF through tick and tin regardless of what happens. There are some who admire such loyalty, but please don't try to 'persuade' the rest of us that there is merit in it.""'
They may deny it but on reading their posts this is very obvious typical Fianna Fail heads
No body else can run the country but them
Or else the have Shares in AIb or BOI
Having said Enda Kenny might not be a great politician ,But he is a very lucky one , If he had won the last election (and if he was any good he would have) Fianna Fail would be Hammering him now saying it was all his fault.
Which alternative do you support so? Bad bank? Nationalisation ?
Enda's plan is a good bank. FFs plan is for the bank bank AKA NAMA.
Funny how you both made exactly the same mistake. ;D
And once you've created a good bank what do you do with the rest? It's a bad bank
http://www.finegael.org/news/a/1097/article/
The banks aren't lending. There are many reasons for this but the huge toxic debt versus relatively low deposits is a big one. NAMA is a bad bank which waill take the toxic debt off the failing banks.
FG proposed a'Good Bank' to start lending going again. Whatever the merits/demerits it seems a hell of a lot better than rescuing institutions that not only failed but managed to pull down the economy with them.
The FF spin is the the banks will start lending post NAMA. I don't think they will be able to. Then what?
in the midst of all the debate, there is another alternative, that is to do nothing. Would it really be that much worse?? As we've been slaves to the almighty market and its benevolent invisible hand, why don't we just sit back and let the market sort this out for us. It's not a bad option imo (pity about that ridiculous guarantee last sept, but that's not really worth the paper it was written on anyway).
Which alternative do you support so? Bad bank? Nationalisation
Neither let them Fail
Quote from David Mcwilliams
International evidence here is interesting. There is no evidence from the world of finance and banking which says that a winding up of the banking system in a country and replacing it with a new banking system has any lasting effect on the economic performance of the country. In the US this year alone 300 banks and finance houses have gone to the wall and, according to the latest data, the US economy is tentatively recovering. Sweden wound up its worst banks without adverse effect. In France, banks are rarely called banks due to the frequency of bank collapses in the past and France is not a basket case -- it recovered and constructed new banks.
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 07:55:48 PM
in the midst of all the debate, there is another alternative, that is to do nothing. Would it really be that much worse?? As we've been slaves to the almighty market and its benevolent invisible hand, why don't we just sit back and let the market sort this out for us. It's not a bad option imo (pity about that ridiculous guarantee last sept, but that's not really worth the paper it was written on anyway).
More than anything the bank guarantee was given to try to save Anglo. That was the bank that should have been allowed to fail. This was a policy only FF could pursue. Now Anglo is the main argument as to why we couldn't allow FF nationalise all the banks. Witness Anglo going ahead with their new HQ to try to save Carroll.
The argument that there is no opposition is ridiculous. A government that does nothing would be far better than this lot.
the problem in ireland is that our establishment is comprised of a very small group of people who look out for each other, they seized power in the 20's and have feathered each others nests ever since. This extends from our politicians, through our bankers and into the judiciary. It was recently gate-crashed by Bertie and his builder mates, but they'll be gone shortly. We could not have let the banks fail, some foreigners might have come in and took over one of the vital cogs of control.
I think I'm turning into Jim Corr.
For what it's worth, i think doing nothing made the most sense, but the ridiculous guarantee makes that difficult,but I can see few flaws in nationalisation (but not with civil service involvment in the running of the banks) makes the most sense, as that way we don't overpay, we get all the assets, the banks get their just desserts and the taxpayer has a shot at getting out of this at some stage.
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 08:08:32 PM
the problem in ireland is that our establishment is comprised of a very small group of people who look out for each other, they seized power in the 20's and have feathered each others nests ever since. This extends from our politicians, through our bankers and into the judiciary. It was recently gate-crashed by Bertie and his builder mates, but they'll be gone shortly. We could not have let the banks fail, some foreigners might have come in and took over one of the vital cogs of control.
I think I'm turning into Jim Corr.
For what it's worth, i think doing nothing made the most sense, but the ridiculous guarantee makes that difficult,but I can see few flaws in nationalisation (but not with civil service involvment in the running of the banks) makes the most sense, as that way we don't overpay, we get all the assets, the banks get their just desserts and the taxpayer has a shot at getting out of this at some stage.
And who lends to the "Soviet Irish Bank"? Keeping in mind the uproar in America over Obamas health care plans
""Soviet Irish Bank"'
Typcial Fianna Failer
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
""Soviet Irish Bank"'
Typcial Fianna Failer
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
Says who You and King Bertie
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 08:13:17 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 08:08:32 PM
the problem in ireland is that our establishment is comprised of a very small group of people who look out for each other, they seized power in the 20's and have feathered each others nests ever since. This extends from our politicians, through our bankers and into the judiciary. It was recently gate-crashed by Bertie and his builder mates, but they'll be gone shortly. We could not have let the banks fail, some foreigners might have come in and took over one of the vital cogs of control.
I think I'm turning into Jim Corr.
For what it's worth, i think doing nothing made the most sense, but the ridiculous guarantee makes that difficult,but I can see few flaws in nationalisation (but not with civil service involvment in the running of the banks) makes the most sense, as that way we don't overpay, we get all the assets, the banks get their just desserts and the taxpayer has a shot at getting out of this at some stage.
And who lends to the "Soviet Irish Bank"? Keeping in mind the uproar in America over Obamas health care plans
the same people who are willing to accept the bonds issued by the state to the capitalist pig banks ;) - ie. the only people willing to touch anything irish at the moment, and that only because they have a vested interest in doing so - the one, the only, the ECB!!!
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 08:13:17 PM
Quote from: Bogball XV on September 18, 2009, 08:08:32 PM
the problem in ireland is that our establishment is comprised of a very small group of people who look out for each other, they seized power in the 20's and have feathered each others nests ever since. This extends from our politicians, through our bankers and into the judiciary. It was recently gate-crashed by Bertie and his builder mates, but they'll be gone shortly. We could not have let the banks fail, some foreigners might have come in and took over one of the vital cogs of control.
I think I'm turning into Jim Corr.
For what it's worth, i think doing nothing made the most sense, but the ridiculous guarantee makes that difficult,but I can see few flaws in nationalisation (but not with civil service involvment in the running of the banks) makes the most sense, as that way we don't overpay, we get all the assets, the banks get their just desserts and the taxpayer has a shot at getting out of this at some stage.
And who lends to the Soviet Irish Bank? Keeping in mind the uproar in America over Obamas health care plans
Currently the ECB.
Quote from: Gnevin on September 17, 2009, 10:56:02 PM
Quote from: Rossfan on September 17, 2009, 10:02:55 PM
We( the taxpayers) in effect buy €47,000,000,000 worth of property for €55,000,000,000 at a time when property prices are still falling to reach the proper level for the emptiest Country in Western Europe.
The people who might be buying houses in the future are being told by IBEC/Bankers/FF that they have to be paid less.("We" need to stop paying ourselves so high...they tell us. Yet only the self employed,Company Directors and TDs actually can pay themselves. ::) ::)).
Surely the only outcome then can be that house prices have to drop to a level where people can truly afford to buy them before there is a "proprty market" again.
So we the taxpayers have paid the baks €55bn of borrowed money for property that we will sell for maybe €30bn.
Be afraid ...............be very afraid.
With one of the fastest growing populations . These people will need to live some where .
Can't see it being the fastest growing any longer. Anyway if these people are all on the Dole they won't be able to buy houses no matter what the price.
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
""Soviet Irish Bank"'
Typcial Fianna Failer
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
America would have had jailed some of our bankers by now and remember they let Lehmans fail along with nearly 90 others this year. That is what a free market is supposed to be.
Our version is that in good times they get rich and in the bad times the taxpayer bails them out. Some free market.
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
Says who You and King Bertie
Or was it Bernie made-off with all the money
The main difference between NAMA and Good/Bad bank is that NAMA gets control of the assets. NAMA gets to repossess without actually reposessing. It is a FF quango which allows FF to appoint their own people to repossess assets and hold them untill they are valuable and return them to their own people ahead of the market. Good/Bad bank would be run like a Bank with bankers running along banking rules and regulations. NAMA can do what it likes.
Can you imagine when/if the time comes that the property market starts to increase in value. This FF quango will be one of the most powerful bodies in the country. It will be something similar to what FF had 3/4 years ago before the crash. It's a scary future.
I'm all for letting the private investors in the banks go to the wall but we can't let the banks go to the wall. They are all fecked and if they go to the wall our banking system will go to the wall. There is no back up or no banks to replace them (unless we nationalise). If the banks go to the wall in Ireland it would be like removing all the roads, trains and canals in the country. We would be dealing in cash and the country would collapse. We need money to move and the banks are how it is moved.
Quote from: Zapatista on September 18, 2009, 08:46:11 PM
The main difference between NAMA and Good/Bad bank is that NAMA gets control of the assets. NAMA gets to repossess without actually reposessing. It is a FF quango which allows FF to appoint their own people to repossess assets and hold them untill they are valuable and return them to their own people ahead of the market. Good/Bad bank would be run like a Bank with bankers running along banking rules and regulations. NAMA can do what it likes.
I'm all for letting the private investors in the banks go to the wall but we can't let the banks go to the wall. They are all fecked and if they go to the wall our banking system will go to the wall. There is no back up or no banks to replace them (unless we nationalise). If the banks go to the wall in Ireland it would be like removing all the roads, trains and canals in the country. We would be dealing in cash and the country would collapse. We need money to move and the banks are how it is moved.
Zap not all the banks in Ireland are Irish and therefore it would not 'be like removing all the roads, trains and canals in the country'it would merely be like removing all the roads that weren't funded by the EU.
I'm all for letting the private investors in the banks go to the wall but we can't let the banks go to the wall. They are all fecked and if they go to the wall our banking system will go to the wall. There is no back up or no banks to replace them (unless we nationalise). If the banks go to the wall in Ireland it would be like removing all the roads, trains and canals in the country. We would be dealing in cash and the country would collapse. We need money to move and the banks are how it is moved.
No read mcWilliams
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/were-the-hostages-to-fortune-in-nama-drama-1887179.html.
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 08:50:46 PM
Zap not all the banks in Ireland are Irish and therefore it would not 'be like removing all the roads, trains and canals in the country'it would merely be like removing all the roads that weren't funded by the EU.
Fair enough but a huge percentage of Irish business', personal mortrgages, credit cards are dependant on the Irish banks. If they aren't they are dealing with suppliers and buyers who are. You would need to atleast keep them a float for a year untill all creditors to the banks transfer to samller banks which are only situated in some of the largest citys across the country. If this was intended to happen and the market new it the banks would collapse overnight.
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 08:53:36 PM
No read mcWilliams
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/david-mcwilliams/were-the-hostages-to-fortune-in-nama-drama-1887179.html.
Can't find that for some reason. Can you summarise for me? Cheers
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
""Soviet Irish Bank"'
Typcial Fianna Failer
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
America would have had jailed some of our bankers by now and remember they let Lehmans fail along with nearly 90 others this year. That is what a free market is supposed to be.
Our version is that in good times they get rich and in the bad times the taxpayer bails them out. Some free market.
For a foreign investment point of view it would be better to let them fail than nationalise them but if course your talking about allowing the 4 biggest (or close it) banks in Ireland fail rather than the 90 bit players the US let fails and the sentiment (on CNN anyway) is that letting LB fail was mistake.
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 09:04:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
""Soviet Irish Bank"'
Typcial Fianna Failer
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
America would have had jailed some of our bankers by now and remember they let Lehmans fail along with nearly 90 others this year. That is what a free market is supposed to be.
Our version is that in good times they get rich and in the bad times the taxpayer bails them out. Some free market.
For a foreign investment point of view it would be better to let them fail than nationalise them but if course your talking about allowing the 4 biggest (or close it) banks in Ireland fail rather than the 90 bit players the US let fails and the sentiment (on CNN anyway) is that letting LB fail was mistake.
The problem with analysis here as there is that all the analysts have vested interests in the subject matter.
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 09:27:02 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 09:04:40 PM
Quote from: muppet on September 18, 2009, 08:34:13 PM
Quote from: Gnevin on September 18, 2009, 08:20:45 PM
Quote from: fearbrags on September 18, 2009, 08:19:04 PM
""Soviet Irish Bank"'
Typcial Fianna Failer
That's how it will be viewed in America and on wall street
America would have had jailed some of our bankers by now and remember they let Lehmans fail along with nearly 90 others this year. That is what a free market is supposed to be.
Our version is that in good times they get rich and in the bad times the taxpayer bails them out. Some free market.
For a foreign investment point of view it would be better to let them fail than nationalise them but if course your talking about allowing the 4 biggest (or close it) banks in Ireland fail rather than the 90 bit players the US let fails and the sentiment (on CNN anyway) is that letting LB fail was mistake.
The problem with analysis here as there is that all the analysts have vested interests in the subject matter.
Of course sure as we both said before (I think) economics is the crystal ball science anyway .
Fintan O'Toole in yesterday's Irish Times hits the nail once again:
Propping up of rotten banks is a huge con job
THE PURPOSE of Nama, we are repeatedly told, is to allow the banks to get back to lending money to the real Irish economy. This is unquestionably a vital aim. There is one glaring problem, however, writes FINTAN O'TOOLE
Almost half of the toxic loans we're buying through Nama are held by banks who didn't lend much money to the real economy in the first place. Of the €77 billion in loans that Nama is to take on, €36 billion is held by Anglo Irish Bank and Irish Nationwide Building Society.
These institutions have damn all to do with the small and medium Irish enterprises that are supposed to be saved by Nama. This is the absurdity at the heart of the whole enterprise: we are putting up staggering amounts of money to encourage banks to get "back" to where they never were.
The big lie in the entire Government response to the banking crisis is that we had to save Anglo Irish and Nationwide (which is to say, Seanie and Fingers) because they are of "systemic importance" to the Irish economy. You only have to look at the documents released last week by the Department of Finance as part of the Nama proposal to know that this is patently untrue. In the case of Anglo Irish, just 11 per cent of its loan book is categorised as "business banking". Almost all of the rest relates to the property and construction sectors – which is to say to the bubble economy that was parasitic on the real one.
Irish Nationwide, as a mutual building society, was supposed to be in the business of giving mortgages to people to buy houses. In fact, just 22 per cent of its loan book relates to residential property. In September last year, the month in which the crisis came to a head, Irish Nationwide approved precisely zero home loans for first-time buyers.
It is thus quite easy to "get back" to where Irish Nationwide was. Even without Nama, it could surely manage a return to zero.
There's a huge con job going on here. (I don't mean to suggest that members of the Government are deliberately misleading the public. Things are much worse than that – they actually believe this stuff.) We're doubling the national debt in large measure to prop up institutions that had no real and sustainable function in any economy except the Bermuda Triangle of Fianna Fáil, the developers and the banks.
What we're doing with Anglo Irish is particularly demented. We know that this was a systemically anarchic and amoral institution. We know that it engaged in reckless lending, that it manipulated its share price through the Golden Circle caper, that it cooked its books by playing games with Irish Nationwide and Irish Life, and that, as The Irish Times revealed yesterday, some of its current executives had huge loans from their own bank. We know that its overall contribution to the real economy was like that of the Huns to the Roman Empire.
And yet, knowing all of this, we are feeding vast amounts of public money into this thoroughly rotten institution. If we assume a 30 per cent discount on the €28 billion of Anglo Irish loans that Nama is to take over, that's the guts of €20 billion. Alongside the almost €4 billion we've already put in directly and the €6 billion plus we're being told we'll have to cough up as part of the Nama process, that's an astonishing €30 billion of public resources. To call this madness would be insulting to psychotics everywhere.
Let's put this €30 billion into context. The real economy in Ireland is being crippled by the appalling failure to create a proper broadband infrastructure. The cost of building a world class, high-speed national network was estimated at the height of the boom to be €4 billion.
With the €25 billion or so left over, we could actually invest in all those "green economy" and "smart economy" companies we keep hearing about.
I find it simply incomprehensible that anyone intelligent enough to have joined the Green Party in the first place can believe that it is a better use of public resources to pump €30 billion into the corpse of a dead casino bank than to actually invest in tangible, and economically transformative, infrastructure.
In his speech last week, Brian Lenihan told us that "Nama will ensure that we avoid the Japanese outcome of 'zombie banks' that are just ticking over and not making a vibrant contribution to economic growth". But we already have, in Anglo Irish, an institution that's so zombie it should be renamed the Hiberno-Haitian Bank.
The proposition at the heart of Nama is that the way to get money to Irish businesses is to give it to a putrid, artificially animated corpse. Even at this late stage, is there any chance that someone in the Government might wake up in the middle of the night with a brilliant brainwave: the way to put money into the real economy is to put money into the real economy?
I asked this on another thread. IL & P i think have one of the most if not the most residential mortgages on its books. It is not been helped by NAMA so how does it help them?
I heard that irish nationwide, ebs and PTSb will be merged after NAMA (forced by the Govt.)
Why if people don't like NAMA so much why don't they move their money to banks that don't parttake in it?
Nama - my downfall
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjvCpHciYQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yjvCpHciYQ)
In June this year the OECD reported that Irish pension funds notched up the biggest losses in the developed world during 2008, as retirement funds here collapsed spectacularly because they are over-exposed to shares and property.
In its updated report, the OECD also pointed out that the National Pension Reserve Fund (NPRF) experienced the worst performance of any sovereign or national fund within the OECD group, shedding 30.4pc of its value last year.
These are the boys that are due to set up Nama ??? ???
Lenihan warns on NAMA start delay
Wednesday, 28 October 2009 18:20
Finance Minister Brian Lenihan has told the Dáil plans to start transferring the biggest loans from the banks into the National Asset Management Agency by the end of the year could face a delay.
Speaking at the committee stage debate of the NAMA Bill in the Dál, he said the business plan envisaged that a sizeable amount of the work would start by Christmas. 'That time limit could easily slip into January at the rate we are proceeding,' he said.
Delays in starting the NAMA process are being partly blamed for big falls in shares in the Irish banks today.
See how Irish bank shares performed here
During the debate, the opposition criticised the decision by the Minister to cap at 5% the amount of subordinated debt to be issued by the National Asset Management Agency.
5% of the loans being taken on by NAMA will be in the form of subordinated debt, where the ultimate payment will depend on the performance of NAMA assets. The banks will not receive all of this money immediately.
Fine Gael finance spokesman Richard Bruton said he had welcomed the initial decision by the Minister to make the banks share the risk with the taxpayer. But he said capping at 5% the value of bonds to be issued as subordinated debt was unfair to the taxpayer.
The Minister for Finance said subordinated debt had to carry a much higher rate of interest - between 5% and 7% - because of the risk of the debt. He said if the Government had issued up to half of the bonds in the form of subordinated debt, NAMA would be crippled with huge interest bills.
Minister Lenihan said it was not fixing the amount of interest to be paid today, but it would be in the 5-7% range. The rest of the NAMA bonds will have an interest rate of 1.5%.
The Labour Party finance spokesperson Joan Burton said the risk sharing model was intended to act as a carrot and stick approach to incentivise the banks to clean up their mess. She described the model being put forward by the Minister as 'all carrot and no stick'.
She said it was a fig leaf to hide the blushes of the Green Party, who, as part of the re-negotiation of the Programme for Government, had sought a 50-50 approach to risk sharing between the banks and the taxpayer.
Sinn Fein's Arthur Morgan congratulated the Minister on - as he put it - walking all over the Green Party on the risk sharing element. He said making the banks take 5% of the risk was nothing short of scandalous.
The Minister for Finance also said it was unlikely that he would be advertising for the first CEO of NAMA. Mr Lenihan has already given an informal undertaking to the opposition to consult them on the appointment of the first CEO, but he said subsequent appointments would be made by the board.
Will NAMA and SPV share a chief executive?
In Section 37 of the NAMA Bill in committee stage, Labour's Joan Burton asked the Minister whether it was possible for the chief executive of NAMA to also be the head of the SPV (special purpose vehicle) which will be set up to buy and manage the €54 billion worth of loans.
Deputy Burton said this relationship must be clarified because if the SVP - being privately controlled and with real powers of its own - should wish to nominate its own leader, it would, she said, be entitled to do so and that this would be problematic.
She also said there could also be serious problems should the SVP have a significant difference of opinion with NAMA.
Fine Gael's Kieran O'Donnell, said that the SVP was described in the legislation as a stand-alone body, so how could it share a chief executive with another body? The Minister for Finance said some of these matters would be regulated by shareholders. But he said he would examine this issue again before the report stage of the Bill
Unreal
Bank of Ireland reports its first-half results to end-September on November 4th.
We are forecasting a pre-exceptional pre-tax loss (new way of putting this ...must be extraordinary/exceptional/existensionlist ones on the way for the second half !!) of €1.075bn as operating profits of €750m and associates of €25m are dwarfed by impairment losses of €1.85bn. In its IMS in mid-September, the bank predicted that operating profits would be lower in H1 this year as income falls by a 'mid-teens' percentage and costs by a 'high-single-digit' percentage. Our forecast 22% fall in operating profits assumes a 16% decline in income and a 9% decrease in costs.
Our impairment forecast of €1.85bn (compared with guidance of €1.6-1.8bn) is equivalent to 283bps (annualised) of average loans and assumes the H1 charge will represent the peak of the downturn. We are keen to hear an update on operating profit and impairment trends and management's current thoughts on capital.
In its IMS, the group signalled an increase in its previous three-year impairment guidance of €6bn to end-March 2011 to closer to €7bn ( last December..when all of the banks said they would only lose c. 3bn). The bank also said that in the event that additional capital is required to maintain an appropriate level, it believes that such equity could be internally generated and/or through access to the capital markets. On the subject of capital, the Financial Times (FT) suggests that Lloyds hopes to persuade existing bondholders to exchange their bonds for convertibles as a key element of its £25bn recapitalisation programme. According to the FT, Lloyds is set to announce (November 3rd) plans to raise up to £13.5bn in a deeply discounted rights issue alongside which it plans to raise £7.5bn of so-called contingent convertibles, or 'Cocos'. These would count towards core tier one capital and convert into equity in a 'stress scenario'
Equity markets have taken quite a jolt over the last two weeks. It seems that speculation about central bank exit strategies has spooked some investors, twinned with actual monetary tightening by Australia, Norway and India (with plans by China to tighten consumer credit standards too). But those moves relate to economies that have long emerged from recession and where country-specific factors (commodity recovery, secular internal dynamics) are at play..
From BBC
The Irish parliament has approved legislation to establish a "bad" bank to absorb problem loans in the country's troubled banking sector.
The National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) will have 54bn euros ($80bn; £49bn) to buy bad loans from banks.
The government has already pumped billions of euros into banks and nationalised Anglo Irish Bank to try to stabilise the sector.
The country's economy has been one of the most hard-hit by the downturn.
The 54bn euros will be used to buy toxic loans made by banks with a book value of 77bn euros, mainly in the property market.
The rescue plan is the biggest in the country's history.
"The Irish economy is suffering from a very sharp liquidity crisis, which NAMA is designed to counteract," said Kevin McConnell at Bloxham Securities.
But the plans were fiercely debated in the Irish Dail, with the opposition party Fine Gael particularly critical.
"NAMA is fundamentally flawed, will do nothing to get credit flowing to small business and it will do nothing to support the retention or creation of jobs," it argued.
The UK government has proposed a similar "bad" bank to handle toxic loans at Northern Rock bank.
Quote from: Caid on November 12, 2009, 06:35:13 PM
From BBC
The Irish parliament has approved legislation to establish a "bad" bank to absorb problem loans in the country's troubled banking sector.
The National Asset Management Agency (NAMA) will have 54bn euros ($80bn; £49bn) to buy bad loans from banks.
The government has already pumped billions of euros into banks and nationalised Anglo Irish Bank to try to stabilise the sector.
The country's economy has been one of the most hard-hit by the downturn.
The 54bn euros will be used to buy toxic loans made by banks with a book value of 77bn euros, mainly in the property market.
The rescue plan is the biggest in the country's history.
"The Irish economy is suffering from a very sharp liquidity crisis, which NAMA is designed to counteract," said Kevin McConnell at Bloxham Securities.
But the plans were fiercely debated in the Irish Dail, with the opposition party Fine Gael particularly critical.
"NAMA is fundamentally flawed, will do nothing to get credit flowing to small business and it will do nothing to support the retention or creation of jobs," it argued.
The UK government has proposed a similar "bad" bank to handle toxic loans at Northern Rock bank.
€28 Billion of the debt going to NAMA currently belongs to Anglo. Saving Anglo has little or nothing to do with'getting credit flowing'. It looks more like a political favour than a sound economic strategy.
Contrast the €28 Billion rescue for Anglo (along with the Billions already pumped into it) with the Mary Harney decision to scrap the €10 Million cervical cancer smearing programme which no one denies would save lives. People will die as a result of her decision.
These letters to the Times today pretty much sum it up for me:
Madam, – At a time of falling prices no one would willingly pay more than the market price for property. It is therefore shocking that we are collectively compelled to do so by our Government through Nama. To confound this absurdity, the assumed market price for those properties is far more than they are actually worth.
An excellent report by Mary Carolan (Finance, October 20th) quotes Mr Justice Peter Kelly, who manages the list of the Commercial Court, as saying that he is dealing on a daily basis with cases illustrating falls in property values of between 70 and 80 per cent (not 30 per cent). This reality is being ignored by the Government in paying €54 billion to the banks for property worth half that amount.
To transfer by way of overpayment such a huge amount of public money into private hands is morally wrong and in no way can be justified by the Government's reluctance to partially or temporarily nationalise banks. An overpayment of €27 billion represents 10 severe budgets which would cause major discontent.
Of course Nama will provide more money for the banks, but at an enormous cost to taxpayers, who will ultimately have to foot the bill. Like not seeing the wood for the trees, the Government cannot see the people for the banks.
The people need a national bank with branches countrywide and then private banks can sink or swim according to their behaviour. Otherwise, banks will just dictate, and surely we have seen enough of that? It should be self-evident that borrowing to pay too much for property is exactly what caused the collapse. Let's not repeat it. – Yours, etc,
PAT HUGHES.
Bird Avenue,
Clonskeagh,
Dublin 14.
Madam, – Have I got this right? The taxpayer, having given €11 billion to organisations dedicated to private profit, is going to give them a further €54 billion, and this will be overseen by a structure where the taxpayer will have 49 per cent control. People whose primary responsibility is to increase private profit will have 51 per cent control, but somehow this (magically) is not a majority.
There is a future for the Government in comedy – and they will not even need to hire script writers. Now that is a saving. – Yours, etc,
PAT O'CONNOR,
Killaloe,
This whole affair is ridiculous. Trying to contemplate how much damage over paying for these assets by billions of euros will have on biddy, paddy, their children and their children's children is terrifying.
After all the suffering of Ireland against the English government over the years it is now our own Government that is going to cause us to suffer for the forseeable future....
Quote from: muppet on November 12, 2009, 06:43:06 PM
[
Contrast the €28 Billion rescue for Anglo (along with the Billions already pumped into it) with the Mary Harney decision to scrap the €10 Million cervical cancer smearing programme which no one denies would save lives. People will die as a result of her decision.
Dont you know this Government is only interested in looking after their big business buddies?
Deaths of ordinary people arent of any consequence to cnuts like Harney once her business buddies are bailed out of the mess of their own making.
Lenihan came out with some statement today and on the 6 oclock news an IBECunt spokesman came out with the same prattle word for bloody word.
But of course we are letting them away with it so it's fcukin good enough for us. >:(
(http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2009/1113/frontpageimage.jpg?ts=1258118527)
Courtesy of the Irish Times :D
;D ;D
very good
From www.irisheconomy.ie. The AIB and BOI chiefs have stated they will not use the NAMA government bonds to get cheap funding from the ECB. Rather they just seem to likely to continue the current levels of restricted lending (although I can't see the reason why they wouldn't take the cheap ECB funds ??? BoI says they do not want to be reliant on a Central Bank for funding - but if you can borrow at 1% and lend at 4% - is that not the whole point of a bank regardless of who the counterparty is??
What Will the Banks Do with NAMA's Bonds?
This post was written by Karl Whelan
There were some entertaining media reports last week about the appearence of AIB and Bank of Ireland executives before the Oireachtas Committee on Finance and the Public Sector. I decided at the time not to comment on these reports because the full transcripts of these meetings eventually get put online and these are a better way to judge what was said.
The transcript is now online here. The most insightful aspects of the committee meeting were the exchanges relating to what the banks were going to do with the NAMA bonds given to them by the Irish government.
Anyone following the NAMA debate over the past few months will have regularly seen and heard members of the government explain how NAMA was going to get credit flowing: NAMA would take ownership of the banks' property loan portfolios in return for government bonds, which the banks would then use as collateral to get repo loans from the ECB and then these funds would be loaned out to Irish firms and households.
The statements made at the committee meeting by CEOs Richie Boucher of BOI and Eugene Sheehy of AIB did not at all conform with this story. Indeed, the general tone of their statements was that there would be very little swapping of NAMA bonds for ECB loans. Instead, as illustrated by Sheehy's already infamous "trickle-down" comment, the only benefit to getting credit going in Ireland would be a lower cost of market funding for Irish banks which might get passed on to customers.
I will pick out three passages from the transcript.
First, there was the following exchange involving Mr. Boucher:
Deputy Joan Burton: What does Bank of Ireland see itself doing with the NAMA bonds?
Mr. Richie Boucher: The NAMA bonds are a contribution to our funding. The proportion of the NAMA assets to the overall Bank of Ireland assets - whether €10 billion, €11billion, €12 billion, €13 billion or €7 billion - is a contribution to our wholesale funding. We mentioned earlier that as a board we took a decision that our colleague, Des Crowley, would have absolute access to funding. We provided funding into this market when we had much more straitened liquidity circumstances than today.
The Deputy mentioned the European Central Bank. Bank of Ireland took a deliberate decision, which has paid off but has been expensive for us, to have the minimal possible reliance on the ECB. It has cost us money to term out our funding and not rely on the ECB. At 30 September, we had net borrowings, not just from the ECB but from monetary authorities, of approximately €7 billion. For a balance sheet the size of ours, that approaches normal market operations, because there could be borrowings overnight and so on. That is a disclosed figure, but it should not be taken as reliance on monetary authorities. It approaches normal market operations for a bank of our size. It is not appropriate for a bank like ours, which we believe has a long-term future, to be reliant on monetary authorities for permanent funding. That is a broken business model. We have held to this discipline, although it has been a difficult discipline to adhere to over the past six to nine months.
The comments about NAMA, which is a swap of one type of asset for another, being "a contribution to our wholesale funding" seem a bit odd since NAMA bonds are held on the asset side of the balance sheet and wholesale funding is on the liability side. But certainly Mr. Boucher had the opportunity to state that the bonds would be used for repo loans from the ECB and instead went out of his way to talk about how he didn't want to avail of further ECB borrowing.
Second, there is the following exchange involving Eugene Sheehy. Deputy Joan Burton asked the following question:
Deputy Joan Burton: It relates to the future of the bank. The bank is restructuring its lending side. The more important issue is whether it has a funding side to keep the lending going. What does AIB propose to do with the €16 billion or €17 billion in NAMA bonds? Will it hold on to them and use them at the ECB window or does it envisage selling them on the market? As Mr. O'Connor stated, the ECB is beginning to close the window. It seems that by January or February AIB will need a very large injection of further Government funding to square the circle which he was discussing.
Sheehy started on a long and rambling answer involving ATM fees and the international financial crisis and other matters. Eventually, he gets a bit closer to answering the question about the NAMA bonds:
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: In regard to whether the banks will offer more money to a customer who enters one of our branches the day after NAMA is established, that will not happen. Over time, we have a good prospect of reducing what we referred to in our paper as the funding premium. We deliberately identified this separately because we see it as a new lexicon which we and our customers have to understand. We left it as a cost so that customers can clearly see why it should be variable and demand that it be reduced as funding becomes cheaper.
Deputy Joan Burton: Is AIB proposing to hold or sell the NAMA bonds?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: Our funding position, which is strong and diverse at present, will depend on the overall liquidity of the bank.
Deputy Joan Burton: Mr. Sheehy does not see a need for additional Government funding in the new year.
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: The fact is that we would not be able to repo the assets which are going into NAMA because of their quality and the uncertainty that surrounds them. The big advantage of NAMA is in its removal of uncertainty by replacing the assets with bonds. It thereby strengthens the perception and the reality of the bank's funding position.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell doesn't seem to have been too happy with this response, so he continued with a similar line of questioning.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: The Minister has stated on numerous occasions that one of the main benefits of NAMA is that it allowed the banks to access the cheapest funding from the ECB. Is Mr. Sheehy telling me that AIB will not avail of that facility?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: The system has already benefited hugely from NAMA.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: I asked a direct question. Will AIB take the NAMA bonds to the ECB to get funding at 1% or will the bonds sit on its balance sheets to earn 1.5% annual interest from the Government?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: Currently we do not expect any shortage in our ability to meet the lending requirements of our customers.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. Sheehy told me that one of the reasons for higher rates is because the funding requirement for his bank has increased significantly.
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: It is a cost issue, not a volume one. We can get the funds but they cost more.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Why not go to the ECB with the NAMA bonds to get the funds at a reduced cost? When we looked at it, one of the main ideas was to provide a flow of credit. One of the reasons credit is not flowing is the cost to banks and customers. Banks were to function in an environment and pass credit to small and medium-size enterprises, in particular, at a reduced cost. Will AIB not go to the ECB with the NAMA bonds to get funds at 1%?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: We have adequate funding available to meet the demands of our customers. The NAMA bond will be part of the bank's overall liquidity management position.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: It will not go to the ECB.
Deputy Joan Burton: What will the bank do with them? That is the question I asked as well.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: They are being taken on the balance sheet of the banks, with the interest from Government bonds from the taxpayer, but they will not be used with regard to one of the main issues, getting cheap credit flowing again.
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: We want the credit to be as cheap as possible.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Why is the bank not going to the ECB?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: The NAMA bond will be part of the bank's overall liquidity position. It will help us get money.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Mr. Sheehy is not answering the question.
Deputy Joan Burton: Will Mr. Sheehy explain that? I asked the similar question of what the bank proposes to do with the NAMA bonds. Will it hold, use or sell them?
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: From Mr. Sheehy's statement, the bank will effectively sit them on its balance sheet. He is not answering the question. Does AIB intend to go to the ECB with the NAMA bonds to access to funds at 1%? Have the banks discussed the matter with the Minister for Finance? I would love to know his views on what the banks are saying today. This is the bank which is providing over 40% of lending to small and medium-size enterprises in the Irish economy. There is disconnect.
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: I do not see the disconnect. We are exchanging assets with the State for the bond and that bond will improve the funding position of the bank. It will improve our ability to fund money more cheaply.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Why will the bank not go to the ECB?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: It is one of the options.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Is the witness saying the bank will consider going to the ECB?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: We will consider everything. The important factor is that removing the uncertainty around these assets improves the overall funding position of both the bank and the country.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Nobody disagrees with that. We are making a very simple point.
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: I accept that point.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Is Mr. Sheehy stating that AIB will look to access funds through the ECB by effectively repoing NAMA bonds?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: We will use the NAMA bond to improve our overall funding position.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: What of the cost of funding implicit in that?
Mr. Eugene Sheehy: If our funding position is better, the cost of funding will be better.
Deputy Kieran O'Donnell: Okay.
It's a pity we don't have video of this exchange. Suffice to say, however, that Mr. Sheehy ended up being even clearer than Mr. Boucher about his lack of enthusiasm for using NAMA bonds for repo loans from ECB.
Tags: NAMA, NAMA Bonds
I can't believe that these exchanges didn't get a wider airing - I heard about them on The Last Word last week, but have not heard it mentioned since.
How can NAMA go ahead?
Daily, we are hearing that the impairments are getting larger, or shoud that be that they are starting to face up to the level of impairments, and now we have the 2 main Banks basically saying that they are going to hold on to the NAMA bonds.
As mentioned in the article, Brian Lenihen was so certain that the Banks would take the bonds at 1% and lend at 4% "because that is what they do", which meant that he isn't forcing them to lend the money out to borrowers.
Now it appears that the banks are going to get rid of dodgy assets for twice what they are probably worth and keep all of the swag so as to shore up their balance sheets.
Only in Ireland...........................
Why are the opposition / mainstream media not making a bigger deal out of this?
Quote from: Smokin Joe on December 03, 2009, 09:14:16 PM
banks are going to get rid of dodgy assets for twice what they are probably worth and keep all of the swag so as to shore up their balance sheets.
Only in Ireland...........................
Why are the opposition / mainstream media not making a bigger deal out of this?
Because BuilderFF/FG/Media moguls/Banks are all one small well heeled little circle of power and privilege which all the ordinary fools have to pay for. >:(
It wouldnt be allowed to happen in France.
There should be a referndum on NAMA...although even then if some of the opposition don't speak out it won't be stopped
They have some neck on them to do this....
NAMA chairman to get 70% pay increase
It has been confirmed that board members of the National Asset Management Agency are to receive higher fees for their work than previously announced.
Chairman Frank Daly will receive €170,000 this year, up 70% from €100,000.
The other six members of the board will receive a 32% increase in their fees, up from €38,000 to €50,000.
Advertisement
The information is contained in a reply from the Minister for Finance to a parliamentary question asked by Sinn Féin Finance spokesman Arthur Morgan.
'They should receive the remuneration that was indicated originally. The Government cannot justify paycuts for some people but incredible an 70% pay increases for others,' Mr Morgan said.
The board was announced on 22 December last year.
A spokesman for the Department of Finance said it had been decided to increase the fees for the first year of the existence of NAMA because the volume of work to be done would be higher than in subsequent years.
He said chairman Daly would be expected to be available on a full-time basis, while the chairman of NAMA's Credit Committee would have to be available for 3-4 days a week.
The spokesman also claimed that the fees being paid were less than those paid to directors of a bank of an equivalent size.
He said the fees would be reviewed again at the end of the first year.
170k for the chairman is not a huge amount of money and 50k for the board members seems very low! The scale of what they are doing they need to have a very high calibare of person working there.
Don't need very high calibre( correct spelling ;)) person to throw €54Bn of public money at the FC***KIN CNUTS who destroyed our economy.
Meanwhile day care has been abolished in the Plunkett old folks home in Boyle to save money.
:( :( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Thanks for the lesson.
Who is giving FF 54bn ( im sure you have blamed them for ruining the economy)
You , me and our descendants for 3 generations at least are paying the €54bn( for property worth about €10bn)
I said it on the other thread - I think they need to invest in some lower level staff to help clear the bottlenecks. I think it's a much more complex process than anticipated, which isn't really NAMA's fault. It's an evolving process.
Quote from: ludermor on March 12, 2010, 07:15:29 PM
170k for the chairman is not a huge amount of money and 50k for the board members seems very low! The scale of what they are doing they need to have a very high calibare of person working there.
What about them doing it for lower pay because of their patriotic duty? A la the rest of us being told to shop in the south regardless of the price...
Bullshite the whole thing
Quote from: ludermor on March 12, 2010, 08:13:28 PM
Thanks for the lesson.
Who is giving FF 54bn ( im sure you have blamed them for ruining the economy)
well, maybe you've missed a lot of this, so I should explain NAMA to you, the irish taxpayer is buying developer loans from the banks. The suggested payment for these, shall we say 'troubled loans' is €54Bn (Irish tax revenue at present is in the region of €30Bn p.a). The Irish govt (In God we trust etc) have valued the loans we're buying at €47Bn, that whilst obviously illogical would be good value to the taxpayer they feel.
Recent commercial court representations concerning some of the lands being transferred have suggested that perhaps the govt's valuation is a tad optimistic, the country's foremost commercial judge (Justice Kelly) has put valuations of 10% of loan value and 5% of loan value in the two most recent high profile cases. It seems impossible to disagree with these judgements as they are based on commercial reality, the govt (God love them) are using a different basis to value said loans, it's called 'long term economic value' :D :D :D :D :D :D
Given the above, I think that the likes of myself and Rossfan etc are allowed a little latitude whilst we laugh and make fun of any of you idiots who think this 'solution' might be an actual solution, and forgive me ludemor if you don't agree with it, but i've had a few and can't be bothered trawling back through to see if you're for or against this ridiculous plan.
i think you may need to explain it a bit better to me, yes they are buying the loans from the developers but they are buying good and bad loans. They need to have people who can run the 'good' developments or finish off the unfinished ( and viable ) developments. The fucked up developments ( of which there are a lot) have different requirments and i dont know what will happen to these.
i havent said i agree with NAMA but that is what is happening so we have to hope it goes to plan for the sake of the country. To do that we need good people administering Nama, and i havent a clue if have the right people there at the minute.
You can laugh if you wish but what is your solution? Let every developer go wallop and have most of the developments and land in the hands of banks ( who are bankrupt themselves?), I cant see an easy way out but i would love to see one. If things keep go the way there are all the banks will go to the wall ( get nationalised?) and most developers and the land will be in limbo. in all seriousness what would happen then?
they are not buying the land of the developers, they are buying it of the banks.
The developer still has to pay back all the money they borrowed whether it is to the banks or to Nama and a lot of the smaller developers loans will not come under Nama as Nama only are taking loans over 5m and only loans from Irish banks
It is the banks who are getting their money although it is only 70% of what they lent which I am sure a lot of people would be happy with if offered.
It is crazy these people are getting rises and them only 3 months into the job, surely they had to have some idea of the work load.
Hopefully the start of something better.
Two thousand new homes to help cut social housing wait
TWO THOUSAND NEW homes will be added to the country's social housing stock next year, the Government and Nama have announced
http://www.thejournal.ie/two-thousand-new-homes-to-help-cut-social-housing-wait-310902-Dec2011/
What happened Zapa?
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/nama-announces-first-demolition-of-apartment-block-in-ireland
ThresholdIre Any views on NAMA demolishing 12 flats in "state of disrepair" in Longford when 335 families on housing waiting list there? 2 hours ago
According to the Last Word yesterday evening there are close to 4000 units unoccupied in Longford so knocking these 12 shouldn't stop them sorting out the waiting lists.
These apartments were build in 2002 and if they couldn't be sold during the "boom" they will never be sold.
Quote from: seafoid on June 26, 2012, 10:39:24 AM
http://namawinelake.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/nama-announces-first-demolition-of-apartment-block-in-ireland
ThresholdIre Any views on NAMA demolishing 12 flats in "state of disrepair" in Longford when 335 families on housing waiting list there? 2 hours ago
Knocking down 12 dwellings in Longford would be what I'd consider a good start!