A self-employed builder who injured a linesman by throwing a coin during a World Cup football qualifier in Belfast has been given a suspended jail sentence.
Peter Savage (41) also faces a lifetime ban from Windsor Park for launching the missile from the stands as Northern Ireland took on Poland in March.
Savage, of De Wind Drive, Comber, Co Down, pleaded guilty to assaulting Swedish assistant referee Stefan Wittberg during a match further marred by crowd trouble before and afterwards.
Belfast Magistrates Court heard the coin was thrown in the first half, striking Mr Wittberg on the back of the head.
The incident led to the game being halted for seven minutes while the linesman was examined by a doctor, prosecutors said.
Savage was identified by others around him and picked out from Sky Sports television footage of the match.
His solicitor Pat Kelly yesterday said he had been left "deeply upset and distressed" by the court proceedings against him.
Mr Kelly said: "He's been a Northern Ireland supporter for over 30 years. He's attended every match, it's his only social outlet in life.
"But he realises that whatever this court does to him he will be forbidden by the IFA (Irish Football Association) from attending any other matches."
Savage has written a letter of apology to the governing authorities and also expressed regret towards Mr Wittberg, the lawyer stressed.
He had taken drink before the game which he attended with a young son he looks after, the court heard.
Mr Kelly stressed: "It was purely a stupid act of emotion when he threw the coin. He understands the shame this matter has brought upon himself and the team."
Savage's act was not the only violent incident surrounding the match, which Northern Ireland won 3-2.
Four Polish supporters have pleaded guilty to disorderly behaviour linked to trouble which flared at a city centre pub ahead of the game.
Imposing a two-month jail term, suspended for 18 months, District Judge Fiona Bagnall gave Savage credit for how he had met the charge against him.
Quote from: red hander on August 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
He had taken drink before the game which he attended with a young son he looks after
???
Just a random son he looks after?
Peter Savage? That sounds like a name of a member of the one true Church and Faith? I'm totally shocked and disgusted by this... a catholic supporting the North of Ireland ;D
Quote from: red hander on August 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
A self-employed builder who injured a linesman by throwing a coin during a World Cup football qualifier in Belfast has been given a suspended jail sentence.
Peter Savage (41) also faces a lifetime ban from Windsor Park for launching the missile from the stands as Northern Ireland took on Poland in March.
Savage, of De Wind Drive, Comber, Co Down, pleaded guilty to assaulting Swedish assistant referee Stefan Wittberg during a match further marred by crowd trouble before and afterwards.
Belfast Magistrates Court heard the coin was thrown in the first half, striking Mr Wittberg on the back of the head.
The incident led to the game being halted for seven minutes while the linesman was examined by a doctor, prosecutors said.
Savage was identified by others around him and picked out from Sky Sports television footage of the match.
His solicitor Pat Kelly yesterday said he had been left "deeply upset and distressed" by the court proceedings against him.
Mr Kelly said: "He's been a Northern Ireland supporter for over 30 years. He's attended every match, it's his only social outlet in life.
"But he realises that whatever this court does to him he will be forbidden by the IFA (Irish Football Association) from attending any other matches."
Savage has written a letter of apology to the governing authorities and also expressed regret towards Mr Wittberg, the lawyer stressed.
He had taken drink before the game which he attended with a young son he looks after, the court heard.
Mr Kelly stressed: "It was purely a stupid act of emotion when he threw the coin. He understands the shame this matter has brought upon himself and the team."
Savage's act was not the only violent incident surrounding the match, which Northern Ireland won 3-2.
Four Polish supporters have pleaded guilty to disorderly behaviour linked to trouble which flared at a city centre pub ahead of the game.
Imposing a two-month jail term, suspended for 18 months, District Judge Fiona Bagnall gave Savage credit for how he had met the charge against him.
How sad can you get ;D
In fairness this is the only punishment he was ever going to get for that type of offence, I would say the sc**bag is more annoyed about his ban from Windsor and the naming and shamimg he has got. I always am sceptical about these banning orders from sporting grounds though as you are bound to be able to sneak in, its not as if every turnstile operator/steward/cop will know who you are.
It might be more accurate to have entitled this thread "Ex-OWC Hooligan gets slap on the wrist".
I was at the game in question and a good friend of mine was sitting a couple of rows directly behind this asshole. When Savage chucked the coin, he was immediately identified by fans in the surrounding seats, and was ejected (with his son) by the Stewards a couple of minutes later.
For some reason, the Stewards (not IFA employees, but from a company called Eventsec), didn't take his name and address, so the IFA had to investigate, in conjunction with the PSNI. Anyhow, they eventually managed to trace him via his seat and ticket number, as well as tracking down eyewitnesses who were prepared to testify in Court (hence the Guilty plea).
Anyhow, on that basis, the IFA announced that he would be banned for life from attending NI games i.e. even before his case came to Court.
As for the suspended sentence meted out by the Court, I've no doubt that the IFA (and all true NI fans) are dismayed at the leniency, but there's not really anything more we can do.
Finally, it should be noted that the fine imposed by FIFA in respect of this incident (£8k?) was at the very lower end of the range of possible punishments, in recognition of NI's previously good record and despite the fact that a section of the away support was agitating and trying to provoke trouble (eg chucking a bottle at one of the NI subs as he warmed up).
None of which, of course, makes this asshole's conduct in any way less unacceptable; but if it's true to say that "there's always one", at least we can be assured that now "there's one fewer".
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2009, 04:56:33 PM
Peter Savage? That sounds like a name of a member of the one true Church and Faith? I'm totally shocked and disgusted by this... a catholic supporting the North of Ireland ;D
What do you expect...he's from Down ;)
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 07, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
How sad can you get ;D
If attending matches is "his only social outlet", then how does he square that with his admission that he had been drinking before the match? ???
A medical prescription from his doctor, perhaps? :o
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:21:22 PM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 07, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
How sad can you get ;D
If attending matches is "his only social outlet", then how does he square that with his admission that he had been drinking before the match? ???
A medical prescription from his doctor, perhaps? :o
Probably bevvies in the house on his todd
How can anyone call themselves a fan whenever they put the result of this game in doubt?
scum >:(
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 07, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: red hander on August 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
A self-employed builder who injured a linesman by throwing a coin during a World Cup football qualifier in Belfast has been given a suspended jail sentence.
Peter Savage (41) also faces a lifetime ban from Windsor Park for launching the missile from the stands as Northern Ireland took on Poland in March.
Savage, of De Wind Drive, Comber, Co Down, pleaded guilty to assaulting Swedish assistant referee Stefan Wittberg during a match further marred by crowd trouble before and afterwards.
Belfast Magistrates Court heard the coin was thrown in the first half, striking Mr Wittberg on the back of the head.
The incident led to the game being halted for seven minutes while the linesman was examined by a doctor, prosecutors said.
Savage was identified by others around him and picked out from Sky Sports television footage of the match.
His solicitor Pat Kelly yesterday said he had been left "deeply upset and distressed" by the court proceedings against him.
Mr Kelly said: "He's been a Northern Ireland supporter for over 30 years. He's attended every match, it's his only social outlet in life.
"But he realises that whatever this court does to him he will be forbidden by the IFA (Irish Football Association) from attending any other matches."
Savage has written a letter of apology to the governing authorities and also expressed regret towards Mr Wittberg, the lawyer stressed.
He had taken drink before the game which he attended with a young son he looks after, the court heard.
Mr Kelly stressed: "It was purely a stupid act of emotion when he threw the coin. He understands the shame this matter has brought upon himself and the team."
Savage's act was not the only violent incident surrounding the match, which Northern Ireland won 3-2.
Four Polish supporters have pleaded guilty to disorderly behaviour linked to trouble which flared at a city centre pub ahead of the game.
Imposing a two-month jail term, suspended for 18 months, District Judge Fiona Bagnall gave Savage credit for how he had met the charge against him.
How sad can you get ;D
I'd say for many a person, sport is their only social outlet in life. Especially for people who don't drink or smoke etc.
Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 07, 2009, 05:08:16 PM
In fairness this is the only punishment he was ever going to get for that type of offence, I would say the sc**bag is more annoyed about his ban from Windsor and the naming and shamimg he has got. I always am sceptical about these banning orders from sporting grounds though as you are bound to be able to sneak in, its not as if every turnstile operator/steward/cop will know who you are.
Re. the "naming and shaming", any NI fan I've spoken to has been very angered by this asshole, and since he will undoubtedly be known to a fair number of the fans, I can guarantee he'll not be able to "sneak in" unobserved.
Moreover, since almost all the tickets at WP are reserved for named and known "Block Bookers", this guy apparently obtained his from a source who was doing him a favour. Having seen the sh1t that he has now caused, fans will be very reluctant to take that chance in future, with anyone.
Btw, the (GB) Football Offences Acts which would see this guy receive a Banning Order, with possible additional attendance orders at a police station on match days etc, have not yet been extended to NI, despite requests from the IFA and Sports Council etc.
Quote from: Archie Mitchell on August 07, 2009, 05:30:55 PM
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 07, 2009, 04:57:34 PM
Quote from: red hander on August 07, 2009, 04:48:50 PM
A self-employed builder who injured a linesman by throwing a coin during a World Cup football qualifier in Belfast has been given a suspended jail sentence.
Peter Savage (41) also faces a lifetime ban from Windsor Park for launching the missile from the stands as Northern Ireland took on Poland in March.
Savage, of De Wind Drive, Comber, Co Down, pleaded guilty to assaulting Swedish assistant referee Stefan Wittberg during a match further marred by crowd trouble before and afterwards.
Belfast Magistrates Court heard the coin was thrown in the first half, striking Mr Wittberg on the back of the head.
The incident led to the game being halted for seven minutes while the linesman was examined by a doctor, prosecutors said.
Savage was identified by others around him and picked out from Sky Sports television footage of the match.
His solicitor Pat Kelly yesterday said he had been left "deeply upset and distressed" by the court proceedings against him.
Mr Kelly said: "He's been a Northern Ireland supporter for over 30 years. He's attended every match, it's his only social outlet in life.
"But he realises that whatever this court does to him he will be forbidden by the IFA (Irish Football Association) from attending any other matches."
Savage has written a letter of apology to the governing authorities and also expressed regret towards Mr Wittberg, the lawyer stressed.
He had taken drink before the game which he attended with a young son he looks after, the court heard.
Mr Kelly stressed: "It was purely a stupid act of emotion when he threw the coin. He understands the shame this matter has brought upon himself and the team."
Savage's act was not the only violent incident surrounding the match, which Northern Ireland won 3-2.
Four Polish supporters have pleaded guilty to disorderly behaviour linked to trouble which flared at a city centre pub ahead of the game.
Imposing a two-month jail term, suspended for 18 months, District Judge Fiona Bagnall gave Savage credit for how he had met the charge against him.
How sad can you get ;D
I'd say for many a person, sport is their only social outlet in life. Especially for people who don't drink or smoke etc.
Yeah but this guy's only social outlet is
going to watch NI...but seriously this guy strikes me as a "Billy No Mates" who forces his young son (who doesn't really like him) to go to Windsor then in a pathetic act to be one of the crowd slings a coin at the linesman because he's seen it on Match of the Day. I've no evidence to back this up of course but I'm sure I'm right :P
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 07, 2009, 05:20:36 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on August 07, 2009, 04:56:33 PM
Peter Savage? That sounds like a name of a member of the one true Church and Faith? I'm totally shocked and disgusted by this... a catholic supporting the North of Ireland ;D
What do you expect...he's from Down ;)
True, rumour has it he was aiming for the goalkeeper. :D
I don't know what you expect the court to do anyhow, he threw a coin at a linesman. A court of law can only consider the crime and not surrounding circumstances such as the game potentially being abandoned etc. The IFA are the ones with the power in a sence to a) Ban the man and b) Name and shame. They done both so what else can they do? Fair is fair lads.
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on August 07, 2009, 05:45:34 PM
Yeah but this guy's only social outlet is going to watch NI...but seriously this guy strikes me as a "Billy No Mates" who forces his young son (who doesn't really like him) to go to Windsor then in a pathetic act to be one of the crowd slings a coin at the linesman because he's seen it on Match of the Day. I've no evidence to back this up of course but I'm sure I'm right :P
It ain't easy! :)
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
For some reason, the Stewards (not IFA employees, but from a company called Eventsec), didn't take his name and address, so the IFA had to investigate, in conjunction with the PSNI. Anyhow, they eventually managed to trace him via his seat and ticket number, as well as tracking down eyewitnesses who were prepared to testify in Court (hence the Guilty plea).
Because, I assume, the minimum wagers employed by Eventsec don't have the same powers as, for example, the police in compelling an individual to give his / her details.
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
Anyhow, on that basis, the IFA announced that he would be banned for life from attending NI games i.e. even before his case came to Court.
Surely pre-empting the court case could have had repercussions had Mr Savage decided to plead not guilty?
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
As for the suspended sentence meted out by the Court, I've no doubt that the IFA (and all true NI fans) are dismayed at the leniency, but there's not really anything more we can do.
Assuming this is a first offence, a suspended sentence is quite harsh, IMO. Obviously an opinion that few others share though.
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
None of which, of course, makes this asshole's conduct in any way less unacceptable; but if it's true to say that "there's always one", at least we can be assured that now "there's one fewer".
So, if there always one and now there's one fewer, how many does that leave now? None or one?
Quote from: saffron sam2 on August 07, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
For some reason, the Stewards (not IFA employees, but from a company called Eventsec), didn't take his name and address, so the IFA had to investigate, in conjunction with the PSNI. Anyhow, they eventually managed to trace him via his seat and ticket number, as well as tracking down eyewitnesses who were prepared to testify in Court (hence the Guilty plea).
Because, I assume, the minimum wagers employed by Eventsec don't have the same powers as, for example, the police in compelling an individual to give his / her details.
No, but there's no law against asking, is there? Or summoning a policeman to evince the information?
Quote from: saffron sam2 on August 07, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
Anyhow, on that basis, the IFA announced that he would be banned for life from attending NI games i.e. even before his case came to Court.
Surely pre-empting the court case could have had repercussions had Mr Savage decided to plead not guilty?
Absolutely not. For one thing they didn't name the suspect, so cannot have prejudiced any trial. For another, technically speaking, the IFA announced their
intention to ban the perpetrator i.e.
after he was convicted. And in any case, banning someone from your ground is a civil matter, not a criminal one.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on August 07, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
As for the suspended sentence meted out by the Court, I've no doubt that the IFA (and all true NI fans) are dismayed at the leniency, but there's not really anything more we can do.
Assuming this is a first offence, a suspended sentence is quite harsh, IMO. Obviously an opinion that few others share though.
Had the linesman turned his head at the wrong moment, he could have lost an eye; I doubt whether he thought it "harsh". I personally would have liked to see him spend a month in jail as an example to others, but as a fan, I guess I'm biased.
Quote from: saffron sam2 on August 07, 2009, 10:07:33 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
None of which, of course, makes this asshole's conduct in any way less unacceptable; but if it's true to say that "there's always one", at least we can be assured that now "there's one fewer".
So, if there always one and now there's one fewer, how many does that leave now? None or one?
Boyso, you got me there. Well done. ::)
P.S. Why do I get the impression that you'd just love to use this incident as a stick with which to beat the IFA/NI fans, but feel frustrated that it has ultimately been dealt with as best it could have been?
In club games in GAA I've seen spectators assault referees with head and fist, obviously just not as high profile as this.
Thought threads like this about OWC had to have a thumbs up on them as a general rule? :D
The punishment seems fair enough to me from both the court and the IFA.
Fair enough punishment I think you don't see many people in England jailed for the same either...As long as the ban is carried through properly which i think it will be because this man is a embarrassment to the IFA.
What they should have done was make him watch a Irish League match every Saturday for the next 2 yrs...
He would never even think of lifting a coin in anger again and would get him out of the house ;)
Jaysus, if this is the sort of 'family man' who attends OWC matches, I wouldn't like to see the scumbags...
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 07, 2009, 05:17:34 PM
It might be more accurate to have entitled this thread "Ex-OWC Hooligan gets slap on the wrist".
I was at the game in question and a good friend of mine was sitting a couple of rows directly behind this asshole. When Savage chucked the coin, he was immediately identified by fans in the surrounding seats, and was ejected (with his son) by the Stewards a couple of minutes later.
For some reason, the Stewards (not IFA employees, but from a company called Eventsec), didn't take his name and address, so the IFA had to investigate, in conjunction with the PSNI. Anyhow, they eventually managed to trace him via his seat and ticket number, as well as tracking down eyewitnesses who were prepared to testify in Court (hence the Guilty plea).
Anyhow, on that basis, the IFA announced that he would be banned for life from attending NI games i.e. even before his case came to Court.
As for the suspended sentence meted out by the Court, I've no doubt that the IFA (and all true NI fans) are dismayed at the leniency, but there's not really anything more we can do.
Finally, it should be noted that the fine imposed by FIFA in respect of this incident (£8k?) was at the very lower end of the range of possible punishments, in recognition of NI's previously good record and despite the fact that a section of the away support was agitating and trying to provoke trouble (eg chucking a bottle at one of the NI subs as he warmed up).
None of which, of course, makes this asshole's conduct in any way less unacceptable; but if it's true to say that "there's always one", at least we can be assured that now "there's one fewer".
He was an OWC hooligan before he threw the coin and he was an owc hooligan until the sentence was passed down, how quickly the deflection tactics start. This is another blight on the Irish set up involving coins, when will their fans learn?
It was a Savage attack in any case.
Quote from: stew on August 08, 2009, 09:26:55 PM
He was an OWC hooligan before he threw the coin and he was an owc hooligan until the sentence was passed down, how quickly the deflection tactics start. This is another blight on the Irish set up involving coins, when will their fans learn?
A few posts back "Dennis the Menace" posted this:
"In club games in GAA I've seen spectators assault referees with head and fist, obviously just not as high profile as this"Would you therefore agree that those spectators who have assaulted referees were 'GAA hooligans before they used their fists' and presumably
still are, on the basis that many may not have been prosecuted? Can we describe them as 'another blight on the GAA set-up' and ask 'when will GAA fans learn?'. Or would you, as I do, be prepared to accept that such fans are unrepresentative of GAA fans generally, and not approved of by the authorities?
I have actually been heartened by this thread, since the majority of respondents have been reasonable in recognising that this was an isolated individual, who was dealt with appropriately by his fellow fans, the IFA and the PSNI/Courts etc.
The fact that you appear determined to draw an entirely different conclusion indicates to me that your approach to the NI team/IFA and its fans is so one-eyed as to qualify for the description "bigoted". >:(
Not wanting to start a new thread so I will put this in here. The bus/train station in Coleraine had to be closed on Saturday afternoon as the Linfield supporters went on the rampage. A train load of returning marchers from Derrry where set upon as they got off the train and they fought for around 10 minutes before the police managed to restore order. Seemingly it was "tensions" between the UDA and UVF kicked off the trouble.
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 10, 2009, 11:20:11 AM
Not wanting to start a new thread so I will put this in here. The bus/train station in Coleraine had to be closed on Saturday afternoon as the Linfield supporters went on the rampage. A train load of returning marchers from Derrry where set upon as they got off the train and they fought for around 10 minutes before the police managed to restore order. Seemingly it was "tensions" between the UDA and UVF kicked off the trouble.
ahhh - but it was probably only 'one' that started the whole thing ;)
....there must be something similar in the GAA circles....ok no,there isnt !
OWC Supergrasses? Good God this will have consequences, another loyalist fued
Quote from: Evil Genius on August 10, 2009, 10:29:18 AM
Quote from: stew on August 08, 2009, 09:26:55 PM
He was an OWC hooligan before he threw the coin and he was an owc hooligan until the sentence was passed down, how quickly the deflection tactics start. This is another blight on the Irish set up involving coins, when will their fans learn?
A few posts back "Dennis the Menace" posted this:
"In club games in GAA I've seen spectators assault referees with head and fist, obviously just not as high profile as this"
Would you therefore agree that those spectators who have assaulted referees were 'GAA hooligans before they used their fists' and presumably still are, on the basis that many may not have been prosecuted? Can we describe them as 'another blight on the GAA set-up' and ask 'when will GAA fans learn?'. Or would you, as I do, be prepared to accept that such fans are unrepresentative of GAA fans generally, and not approved of by the authorities?
I have actually been heartened by this thread, since the majority of respondents have been reasonable in recognising that this was an isolated individual, who was dealt with appropriately by his fellow fans, the IFA and the PSNI/Courts etc.
The fact that you appear determined to draw an entirely different conclusion indicates to me that your approach to the NI team/IFA and its fans is so one-eyed as to qualify for the description "bigoted". >:(
You cant post anything without referencing the GAA, tell you what, why dont you start a GAA thread were you air all of your issues with the association and I will respond to you in there instead of the whataboutery bullshite you fawn off. Wrong is wrong but sad little men like yourself resort to cheap whataboutery and throw the bigot label at people to deflect from the issue being discussed.
The GAA has issues but you will find we talk about them openly unlike some of you lot over at the norn iron set up.
BTW, I like to see every Irish team win every time they set foot in a sporting arena, that goes for the six as well. Shure didnt I cheer them on in Chicago a few years ago in person. ;D
Quote from: stew on August 10, 2009, 05:14:15 PM
You cant post anything without referencing the GAA, tell you what, why dont you start a GAA thread were you air all of your issues with the association and I will respond to you in there instead of the whataboutery bullshite you fawn off. Wrong is wrong but sad little men like yourself resort to cheap whataboutery and throw the bigot label at people to deflect from the issue being discussed.
The GAA has issues but you will find we talk about them openly unlike some of you lot over at the norn iron set up.
Actually, I never even mentioned the GAA in any of my posts until
"Dennis the Menace" mentioned that such attacks on officials are not unknown in GAA either. And even there I made it quite clear that I was not tarring all GAA fans with the same brush for the actions of one or two individuals.
Quite the contrary, I was complimentary about the reasonable (imo) reaction of GAA fans to the NI situation - in stark contrast to your incoherent and frankly bigoted rant!
P.S. You're clearly another one who does not understand the term "whataboutery". In this context, it would be my attempting to defend the NI fan by reference to GAA fans misbehaving. Nowhere have I sought to condone, never mind defend the NI "fan" in any of my posts. Rather, I have no hesitation in branding him a tosser whose action could only shame his fellow, genuine NI fans like myself.
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 10, 2009, 11:20:11 AM
Not wanting to start a new thread so I will put this in here. The bus/train station in Coleraine had to be closed on Saturday afternoon as the Linfield supporters went on the rampage. A train load of returning marchers from Derrry where set upon as they got off the train and they fought for around 10 minutes before the police managed to restore order. Seemingly it was "tensions" between the UDA and UVF kicked off the trouble.
Evil will find a way to twist this so that it is the GAA's fault. :o
Sawker fans in the north must be proud of the bluesmen and the brethren, funny you never see the rugger buggers get into trouble much do you?
The IFA might not be in a position to sanction these rioters, they did after all allow Tobermore to rent their facilities to well known loyalist killers a few years ago. Shame.
I wonder how many owc fans were among the rioters, plenty i am sure.
Quote from: oakleafgael on August 10, 2009, 11:20:11 AM
Not wanting to start a new thread so I will put this in here. The bus/train station in Coleraine had to be closed on Saturday afternoon as the Linfield supporters went on the rampage. A train load of returning marchers from Derrry where set upon as they got off the train and they fought for around 10 minutes before the police managed to restore order. Seemingly it was "tensions" between the UDA and UVF kicked off the trouble.
Nonsense Oakleaf, twas just a few pillars of society letting off a bit of steam. Nothing wrong with that, boys will be boys after all ::)
Ach, sure, when all's said and done, isn't great to see them fighting among themselves