Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.
A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?
For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.
McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.
I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.
Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.
By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.
this is bull. the problem isnt transition etc. every armagh fan realises this and could see that an all ireland or even an uslter for that matter would likely be out of armagh's reach this year and possibly next year. the problem is that totally inept performance that was put on show on saturday evening. there was no hunger, desire or will to win as a group. a few players did try but a few just seemed to not care.
Armagh at the minute seem to be carrying a few players. If a team is in transition it should be about building towards a time where it may challenge at the top table again for honours. To produce a line out like that on saturday evening and a performance like that is not building for the future, its nothing short of abysmal.
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on July 05, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
yea totally agree. to be honest when he was appointed i thought he would be the man for the job based on the u21 success he had achieved. but he hasnt delivered at all. though apparently its certain players pulling the strings and not him which actually makes a lot of sense looking at the game yesterday and the team selection.
Quote from: qub la la la on July 05, 2009, 10:33:00 PM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on July 05, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
yea totally agree. to be honest when he was appointed i thought he would be the man for the job based on the u21 success he had achieved. but he hasnt delivered at all. though apparently its certain players pulling the strings and not him which actually makes a lot of sense looking at the game yesterday and the team selection.
I don't want to slate the man, he did well by the u21 team. Like yourself I was hoping that he could continue that with the seniors. If he is to continue as manager then the CB will need to get certain guarantees from him i.e. he lives up to what he says and creates an attacking team rather than one which relies on past tactics.
Let's face it.
Armagh don't have the players these days to use the tactics they did in past years. It may be a long time before the same physicality exists in another Armagh team.
His Sunday Game interview there looked very much as he was certainly going
Quote from: thewobbler on July 05, 2009, 10:14:28 PM
Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.
A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?
For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.
McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.
I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.
Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.
By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.
Luckily we have a Ballyholland to english dictionary in our house, what thewobbler really means is are Armagh shite and can Peter McDonnell take them back to their rightful place in division 4.
Quote from: thewobbler on July 05, 2009, 10:14:28 PM
Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.
A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?
For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.
McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.
I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.
Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.
By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.
We are still better than youse, ya Down bollux.
On the points you raise, I accept 100% that we are not the side we were in the first half of this decade, and this is not a situation which is likely to change in the near future. The players we have are generally good talented players but they just aren't of the same calibre as the McGeeneys, McGranes, Marsdens and McConvilles.
What I don't agree with is that yesterday was a fair reflection of the level we are currently at. I don't believe that the system employed played properly to our strengths and I don't believe that the correct decisions were made in terms of the starting XV or the substitutions. I think we do have a scoring threat (one of the best 2 or 3 full forwards in Ireland for one) but we aren't supplying the ball to them enough. The new prospects haven't really been given a chance to impose themselves on the team, for example Ryan Henderson has an excellent McKenna Cup, a superb league debut, then a couple of iffy performances and he's barely heard of again. I also believe that we have defenders good enough as individuals that we can have faith in to deal with the opposition on their own merits without robbing our forwards of any chance of a decent supply to cover for imagined defensive frailties.
I accept that Peter McDonnell could hardly have picked a worse time to take over a side - an aging team in need for restructuring, combined with an expectancy amongst the supporters which was never likely to be satisfied. That's not to say that we didn't appreciate the Ulster title last year; most of us did and I think Peter did very well to get an Ulster title out of that team, no matter who we had to play. But after all that's gone before the decade, Ulster titles just don't set the heart racing at the minute. No doubt they will again in the future but that's simply the reality.
Basically I just don't accept that what happened last night is a true reflection of where Armagh football is, or where it should be. We have good players coming through; Donaghy, Lavery, Vernon, Forker, Toner, Paul Kernan, Kevin O'Rourke etc all have huge potential. Ciaran McKeever is as good a defender as any in Ulster, Clarke is still a top class footballer and we have what looks like a hell of an minor side, as well as a decent u21 team this year. I'm not asking for All Irelands in the next 2 years but I do expect better, no matter who the manager is.
Whether McDonnell is the right man? I dont know..... it was always going to be a poisoned chalice. I think he is too influenced by those around him though.
One thing that I thought was plain wrong was the behaviour of some Armagh fans towards the end - shouting bad manners at McDonnell. It was also obvious (where I was sitting anyway) that the seemed to be Mid/North Armagh accents doing the shouting. No mater how the man is doing, he deserves more respect than that.
Quote from: thebandit on July 05, 2009, 10:55:37 PM
Whether McDonnell is the right man? I dont know..... it was always going to be a poisoned chalice. I think he is too influenced by those around him though.
One thing that I thought was plain wrong was the behaviour of some Armagh fans towards the end - shouting bad manners at McDonnell. It was also obvious (where I was sitting anyway) that the seemed to be Mid/North Armagh accents doing the shouting. No mater how the man is doing, he deserves more respect than that.
Correct. The last thing he needed was to listen to the slabbers that turned on their own manager, obviosuly we are all upset at what transpired but to me there should be no room for taking it out on the manager when the game was about to end.
That was as bad a performance as i have ever seen from an Armagh team and i have seen more than my fair share, I think he should go as he done nothing to change from our style of play in the past, we have the players to play open, attractive football and what we got was negative dirge. :'( :'( :'(
Quote from: JMohan on July 05, 2009, 10:44:56 PM
His Sunday Game interview there looked very much as he was certainly going
Definitely looks on his way out.
5 minutes after getting knocked out of the c'ship he says a break is a good thing ?????????? WTF
Wobbller's question is a good one, although few in the County are considering it in the rush to get the lynch mob gathered.
I think it is universally agreed that the team is indeed in transition - nearly all of the 1999 - 2002 team has gone and I would suggest after last night that that could be reduced even further to just Ronan Clarke, come the McKenna Cup next year. Our days of competing at the top are now gone. That is reality. What we have though are some very good individual footballers and a lot of youngsters coming through who have tasted success at underage level. However many of PMcD's critics seem to assume that this mixture guarantees success, and that is not the case - there is plenty of evidence around Ulster over the years to prove that is not the case.
That said, there still has to be an asessment of how the team has performed under PMcD and it is in this regard that the doubts creep in. Armagh won an Ulster title last year that was gifted on a plate - and even then we nearly dropped the plate! I still reckon that we were around fourth best in Ulster last year, despite taking the title. To win it without playing Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan or Donegal absolutely defied belief. We then got what was considered an excellent draw in the last eight and produced a poverty stricken performance. The memory for me that day was of defenders being brought on in the dying minutes when we were chasing the game. In contrast, we played Wexford at the unveiling of Clann Eireann's new stand in May 2008, with a second string, and beat them comfortably. We did much the same to them in the league at the start of the year.
Your point about being negative to combat better teams just doesn't hold up when considered against opposition such as Fermanagh and Wexford. Although we are no world beaters, I feel we have the personnel to beat both those opponents without recourse to a defensive strategy. To be honest, the tactics have been at times mystifying and appear driven by fear of defeat. Furthermore, stories of dressing room discontent and player power have been rife and I would have been concerned by the lack of urgency shown at vital times last night.
When considering this issue, I'm always reminded of the age old adage, that 'players win games; managers lose them'. I find myself in a bit of a quandry on the issue to be honest. The players are not there to compete at the top, and they have to take their share of responsibility for performances on the pitch. I'm not sure if a new manager would sort out our problems. That said, I have been disappointed with the tenure to date. It is a tight enough call.
Quote from: TacadoirArdMhacha on July 05, 2009, 10:54:31 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 05, 2009, 10:14:28 PM
Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.
A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?
For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.
McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.
I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.
Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.
By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.
We are still better than youse, ya Down bollux.
On the points you raise, I accept 100% that we are not the side we were in the first half of this decade, and this is not a situation which is likely to change in the near future. The players we have are generally good talented players but they just aren't of the same calibre as the McGeeneys, McGranes, Marsdens and McConvilles.
What I don't agree with is that yesterday was a fair reflection of the level we are currently at. I don't believe that the system employed played properly to our strengths and I don't believe that the correct decisions were made in terms of the starting XV or the substitutions. I think we do have a scoring threat (one of the best 2 or 3 full forwards in Ireland for one) but we aren't supplying the ball to them enough. The new prospects haven't really been given a chance to impose themselves on the team, for example Ryan Henderson has an excellent McKenna Cup, a superb league debut, then a couple of iffy performances and he's barely heard of again. I also believe that we have defenders good enough as individuals that we can have faith in to deal with the opposition on their own merits without robbing our forwards of any chance of a decent supply to cover for imagined defensive frailties.
I accept that Peter McDonnell could hardly have picked a worse time to take over a side - an aging team in need for restructuring, combined with an expectancy amongst the supporters which was never likely to be satisfied. That's not to say that we didn't appreciate the Ulster title last year; most of us did and I think Peter did very well to get an Ulster title out of that team, no matter who we had to play. But after all that's gone before the decade, Ulster titles just don't set the heart racing at the minute. No doubt they will again in the future but that's simply the reality.
Basically I just don't accept that what happened last night is a true reflection of where Armagh football is, or where it should be. We have good players coming through; Donaghy, Lavery, Vernon, Forker, Toner, Paul Kernan, Kevin O'Rourke etc all have huge potential. Ciaran McKeever is as good a defender as any in Ulster, Clarke is still a top class footballer and we have what looks like a hell of an minor side, as well as a decent u21 team this year. I'm not asking for All Irelands in the next 2 years but I do expect better, no matter who the manager is.
In a f**king nutshell, TAM, why do we not trust defenders of the calibre of Donaghy, McKeever, A Mallon to do their job without P Duffy and MOR covering them and therefore seriously hampering our attack. Why not let Forker, K O'Rourke and Henderson go and support the men that need it, Vernon being subbed by Brendan Donaghy last year against Wexford jumps out too? Peter McDonnell has now been in charge of Armagh in two of the most negative displays by an Armagh team in my memory which along with a few other posters goes back to the late 70s.
It's fairly sad that the Tyrone and Down posters fell the need to gloat the same as they did after the Wexford game last year, if they bothered to read any of the Armagh supporters posts through the year the majority of posts were along the same lines, we're not saying that the manager has to go because Sam isn't going to be coming back in September, for me there is NO sign of forward progress and I feel there is a good degree of talent in this new team which is not being used properly.
Every County has its Day, good teams come and go, Armaghs day will come again but it may be a long way down the Road. It has to be said that the good team they had over the past decade, were under-achievers in that they failed to deliver a second AI. Good teams win one, great teams win two
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on July 05, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
Herein lies the problem..YOU DON"Thave the players, and I think that everyone else realises that, simply not good enough at the top level
Quote from: JMohan on July 05, 2009, 10:44:56 PM
His Sunday Game interview there looked very much as he was certainly going
Let's hope so.
Quote from: Trevor Hill on July 05, 2009, 10:50:54 PM
Quote from: thewobbler on July 05, 2009, 10:14:28 PM
Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.
A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?
For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.
McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.
I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.
Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.
By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.
Luckily we have a Ballyholland to english dictionary in our house, what thewobbler really means is are Armagh shite and can Peter McDonnell take them back to their rightful place in division 4.
Typical bullsh1t
What I miss the most about our glory years is the swagger.
As someone else on the board pointed out, a team in transition is the same as poor team. There's no point in blaming Peter McD. The current does not measure up against this lot
Tierney
McNulty Bellew Mallon
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McEntee Marsden McKeever
McDonnell Clarke McConnville
Quote from: cadhlancian on July 06, 2009, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on July 05, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
Herein lies the problem..YOU DON"Thave the players, and I think that everyone else realises that, simply not good enough at the top level
Think the above quote hits the nail on the head.
You have just enjoyed the most successful years In Armagh football history, however there is a stark difference between expectation and reality by most ( not all ).
Added to that you have a manager that was thrown into the role ( not elected) against the wishes of many.
There have been numerous reports of inhouse disharmony , even before this years campaign started.
The retirement of the core players from the last 10 years plus the inability to put out to pasture others.
Thats all before you take into consideration the managerial abilty on the training field and during game time.
And then you wonder why it's happening ?
Quote from: Bensars on July 06, 2009, 10:06:57 AM
Quote from: cadhlancian on July 06, 2009, 04:28:36 AM
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on July 05, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
Herein lies the problem..YOU DON"Thave the players, and I think that everyone else realises that, simply not good enough at the top level
Think the above quote hits the nail on the head.
You have just enjoyed the most successful years In Armagh football history, however there is a stark difference between expectation and reality by most ( not all ).
Added to that you have a manager that was thrown into the role ( not elected) against the wishes of many.
There have been numerous reports of inhouse disharmony , even before this years campaign started.
The retirement of the core players from the last 10 years plus the inability to put out to pasture others.
Thats all before you take into consideration the managerial abilty on the training field and during game time.
And then you wonder why it's happening ?
Correction, SOME (not all).
Quote from: Orior on July 06, 2009, 09:56:43 AM
What I miss the most about our glory years is the swagger.
As someone else on the board pointed out, a team in transition is the same as poor team. There's no point in blaming Peter McD. The current does not measure up against this lot
Tierney
McNulty Bellew Mallon
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McEntee Marsden McKeever
McDonnell Clarke McConnville
Tierney
McNulty McNulty Bellew
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McConnville McEntee McKeever
McDonnell Clarke Marsden
Quote from: Orior on July 06, 2009, 09:56:43 AM
What I miss the most about our glory years is the swagger.
As someone else on the board pointed out, a team in transition is the same as poor team. There's no point in blaming Peter McD. The current does not measure up against this lot
Tierney
McNulty Bellew Mallon
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McEntee Marsden McKeever
McDonnell Clarke McConnville
When you look at that tema it is immense.
So in 2010 what we hoping/expecting. Shocking early but will pass a few mins.
McEvoy
Mallon Donaghy P Kernan
Shannon McKeever AK
Toner/McKennna/Lavery/O'Neill
Marty (i'd still play him if injuries clear up) SK Mallon
Forker Clarke Barnsey/McDonnell
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on July 05, 2009, 10:29:01 PM
Armagh have the players to contend for major honours. I am absolutely convinced of that. I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line.
PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.
I really really do wish I could agree with you.Nothing and I genuinely do mean nothing would give me more pleasure than to see us competing at the highest level.But the simple truth is we just are'nt good enough.
We dont have scoring forwards.Can even the most die hard Armagh fan amongst you tell me that you expect either Marty O'Rourke or Paul Duffy to take a score.I certainly dont expect it.
We have become Derry!!!By that I mean stop 1 or 2 forwards and we are no threat.
You say the problems are on the line.I wish I could agree, but I just can't see it. Who would have made a difference?Maybe Forker for Paul Duffy, but he's only a youngster,not really ready for the white heat of senior football yet.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
We have to face it, the greatest team we have ever had has come and gone. We might, with a following wind and the rub of the green have won another All Ireland, maybe even 2 but we did'nt.
This team needs an injection of new talent, here's praying that somewhere in the Orchard County it is ready to step up.
Quote from: corn02 on July 06, 2009, 10:42:20 AM
Quote from: Orior on July 06, 2009, 09:56:43 AM
What I miss the most about our glory years is the swagger.
As someone else on the board pointed out, a team in transition is the same as poor team. There's no point in blaming Peter McD. The current does not measure up against this lot
Tierney
McNulty Bellew Mallon
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McEntee Marsden McKeever
McDonnell Clarke McConnville
When you look at that tema it is immense.
So in 2010 what we hoping/expecting. Shocking early but will pass a few mins.
McEvoy
Mallon Donaghy P Kernan
Shannon McKeever AK
Toner/McKennna/Lavery/O'Neill
Marty (i'd still play him if injuries clear up) SK Mallon
Forker Clarke Barnsey/McDonnell
hes been jumping the shark for at least a year now corn, give it up...
Quote from: The GAA on July 06, 2009, 10:39:20 AM
Quote from: Orior on July 06, 2009, 09:56:43 AM
What I miss the most about our glory years is the swagger.
As someone else on the board pointed out, a team in transition is the same as poor team. There's no point in blaming Peter McD. The current does not measure up against this lot
Tierney
McNulty Bellew Mallon
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McEntee Marsden McKeever
McDonnell Clarke McConnville
Tierney
McNulty McNulty Bellew
O'Rourke McGeeny McCann
McGrane Toal
McConnville McEntee McKeever
McDonnell Clarke Marsden
This is a point that I continually make. In 2002 we had 5 real top class scoring forwards (PMcK was hot and cold), yet we still only managed to win the All Ireland by 1 point.
Compare those forwards to the scoring threat that we possess at the moment and see our problems.
I think you can be realistic and accept that Armagh are not where they were 5 years ago and still be unhappy with the present state of things. On the basis of recent performances over the last couple of years Armagh can reasonably aim to reach the quarter finals. We may not be in the top three and so unlikely to win out, but should still be a cut above getting knocked out without winning a game. Over the weekend Limerick showed how a team can work together, we did not.
Armagh are not where they were 3, 5 , 7 years ago. Times have moved on quickly for this team and what we have now is a poor shadow of the Armagh of a few years back.
But one thing is for sure, Armagh are a better team than that shambles of a performance last Saturday, abysmal doesn't go far enough.
It is important for Armagh to remain competitive and not slip into the quagmire of the 80's and early 90's when a championship win was the exception.
You are correct in saying that Armagh are better than they showed on Saturday night
There is very little wrong with the defence
Mallon, Donaghy, AK & in particular Mc Keever are as good as defenders that you will see
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 06, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
The 3 players you mentioned were almost instant contributors to the Armagh cause. Marsden was our star forward from he was about 20, as was McConville at that age and then Stevie McDonnell was starting and scoring in his second year on the panel. as was clarke.
These players went virtually straight into the team. As far as I remember both Marsden and McConville were the principle free takers straight from their respective debuts.
The kings are dead, where are the new ones??
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 06, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
The 3 players you mentioned were almost instant contributors to the Armagh cause. Marsden was our star forward from he was about 20, as was McConville at that age and then Stevie McDonnell was starting and scoring in his second year on the panel. as was clarke.
These players went virtually straight into the team. As far as I remember both Marsden and McConville were the principle free takers straight from their respective debuts.
The kings are dead, where are the new ones??
Marsden played on the senior team from he was a minor in 1993 but in fairness the team was getting walloped by Derry/Tyrone until we made the breakthrough, what age was he then 24/25?? McConville took a couple of years to break onto the team, the exception is McDonnell who burst onto the scene in 2000, but all our "greats" like Marsden, McConville, Geezer, McGrane, earned their spurs for 4/5 years before making their mark in 1999-2005. We have to be fair to the young lads like Toner, Vernon, and Forker and give them some time.
We do have a new batch of young talent coming through, whether they can match the feats of 2002 is another question, but they must be managed/coached properly and not made play under systems that used to suit our previous team. They need to be allowed to play to their own strengths.
why are there no ballymacnab men on the team
Quote from: mackers on July 07, 2009, 02:18:38 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 06, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
The 3 players you mentioned were almost instant contributors to the Armagh cause. Marsden was our star forward from he was about 20, as was McConville at that age and then Stevie McDonnell was starting and scoring in his second year on the panel. as was clarke.
These players went virtually straight into the team. As far as I remember both Marsden and McConville were the principle free takers straight from their respective debuts.
The kings are dead, where are the new ones??
Marsden played on the senior team from he was a minor in 1993 but in fairness the team was getting walloped by Derry/Tyrone until we made the breakthrough, what age was he then 24/25?? McConville took a couple of years to break onto the team, the exception is McDonnell who burst onto the scene in 2000, but all our "greats" like Marsden, McConville, Geezer, McGrane, earned their spurs for 4/5 years before making their mark in 1999-2005. We have to be fair to the young lads like Toner, Vernon, and Forker and give them some time.
We do have a new batch of young talent coming through, whether they can match the feats of 2002 is another question, but they must be managed/coached properly and not made play under systems that used to suit our previous team. They need to be allowed to play to their own strengths.
i disagree slightly. What are we arguing about? Their individual contributions or the time it took for them to gel as a team? The 3 guys were starters and scorers virtually immediately fromtheir introduction to the squad.
I would agree it took the team a while to take shape as the McEntees, McGrane - even Geezer took a few years to become focal points for the team. McGrane in particular looked to light when he first started in the team and got a wee bit of stick (not much as there was no expectation anyway) - how wrong could you get!!
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
Who ???
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 07, 2009, 02:18:38 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 06, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
The 3 players you mentioned were almost instant contributors to the Armagh cause. Marsden was our star forward from he was about 20, as was McConville at that age and then Stevie McDonnell was starting and scoring in his second year on the panel. as was clarke.
These players went virtually straight into the team. As far as I remember both Marsden and McConville were the principle free takers straight from their respective debuts.
The kings are dead, where are the new ones??
Marsden played on the senior team from he was a minor in 1993 but in fairness the team was getting walloped by Derry/Tyrone until we made the breakthrough, what age was he then 24/25?? McConville took a couple of years to break onto the team, the exception is McDonnell who burst onto the scene in 2000, but all our "greats" like Marsden, McConville, Geezer, McGrane, earned their spurs for 4/5 years before making their mark in 1999-2005. We have to be fair to the young lads like Toner, Vernon, and Forker and give them some time.
We do have a new batch of young talent coming through, whether they can match the feats of 2002 is another question, but they must be managed/coached properly and not made play under systems that used to suit our previous team. They need to be allowed to play to their own strengths.
i disagree slightly. What are we arguing about? Their individual contributions or the time it took for them to gel as a team? The 3 guys were starters and scorers virtually immediately fromtheir introduction to the squad.
I would agree it took the team a while to take shape as the McEntees, McGrane - even Geezer took a few years to become focal points for the team. McGrane in particular looked to light when he first started in the team and got a wee bit of stick (not much as there was no expectation anyway) - how wrong could you get!!
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
I do see where you are coming from, I'm not really arguing, I'm looking at it from the team perspective and as you say it took the 99-05 team a while to come together and it will be the same with this team. I'd like to see the development of the team accelarated not hindered.........on Saturday's evidence (and not Saturday on it's own) it seems to be the latter.
Quote from: full back on July 07, 2009, 03:20:52 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
Who ???
I'd presume Philip Loughran.
Quote from: mackers on July 07, 2009, 03:26:29 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 07, 2009, 02:18:38 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 06, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
The 3 players you mentioned were almost instant contributors to the Armagh cause. Marsden was our star forward from he was about 20, as was McConville at that age and then Stevie McDonnell was starting and scoring in his second year on the panel. as was clarke.
These players went virtually straight into the team. As far as I remember both Marsden and McConville were the principle free takers straight from their respective debuts.
The kings are dead, where are the new ones??
Marsden played on the senior team from he was a minor in 1993 but in fairness the team was getting walloped by Derry/Tyrone until we made the breakthrough, what age was he then 24/25?? McConville took a couple of years to break onto the team, the exception is McDonnell who burst onto the scene in 2000, but all our "greats" like Marsden, McConville, Geezer, McGrane, earned their spurs for 4/5 years before making their mark in 1999-2005. We have to be fair to the young lads like Toner, Vernon, and Forker and give them some time.
We do have a new batch of young talent coming through, whether they can match the feats of 2002 is another question, but they must be managed/coached properly and not made play under systems that used to suit our previous team. They need to be allowed to play to their own strengths.
i disagree slightly. What are we arguing about? Their individual contributions or the time it took for them to gel as a team? The 3 guys were starters and scorers virtually immediately fromtheir introduction to the squad.
I would agree it took the team a while to take shape as the McEntees, McGrane - even Geezer took a few years to become focal points for the team. McGrane in particular looked to light when he first started in the team and got a wee bit of stick (not much as there was no expectation anyway) - how wrong could you get!!
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
I do see where you are coming from, I'm not really arguing, I'm looking at it from the team perspective and as you say it took the 99-05 team a while to come together and it will be the same with this team. I'd like to see the development of the team accelarated not hindered.........on Saturday's evidence (and not Saturday on it's own) it seems to be the latter.
Quote from: full back on July 07, 2009, 03:20:52 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
Who ???
I'd presume Philip Loughran.
you're right there mackers.
and about Loughran, Philly Loughran from Clady. I think hes been given the short of short shrifts
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:35:00 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 07, 2009, 03:26:29 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
Quote from: mackers on July 07, 2009, 02:18:38 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 11:23:46 AM
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 06, 2009, 06:37:25 PM
.For those with long memories remember how long it took Marsdy/Oisin/Stevie McD to become "real contributors" .
The 3 players you mentioned were almost instant contributors to the Armagh cause. Marsden was our star forward from he was about 20, as was McConville at that age and then Stevie McDonnell was starting and scoring in his second year on the panel. as was clarke.
These players went virtually straight into the team. As far as I remember both Marsden and McConville were the principle free takers straight from their respective debuts.
The kings are dead, where are the new ones??
Marsden played on the senior team from he was a minor in 1993 but in fairness the team was getting walloped by Derry/Tyrone until we made the breakthrough, what age was he then 24/25?? McConville took a couple of years to break onto the team, the exception is McDonnell who burst onto the scene in 2000, but all our "greats" like Marsden, McConville, Geezer, McGrane, earned their spurs for 4/5 years before making their mark in 1999-2005. We have to be fair to the young lads like Toner, Vernon, and Forker and give them some time.
We do have a new batch of young talent coming through, whether they can match the feats of 2002 is another question, but they must be managed/coached properly and not made play under systems that used to suit our previous team. They need to be allowed to play to their own strengths.
i disagree slightly. What are we arguing about? Their individual contributions or the time it took for them to gel as a team? The 3 guys were starters and scorers virtually immediately fromtheir introduction to the squad.
I would agree it took the team a while to take shape as the McEntees, McGrane - even Geezer took a few years to become focal points for the team. McGrane in particular looked to light when he first started in the team and got a wee bit of stick (not much as there was no expectation anyway) - how wrong could you get!!
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
I do see where you are coming from, I'm not really arguing, I'm looking at it from the team perspective and as you say it took the 99-05 team a while to come together and it will be the same with this team. I'd like to see the development of the team accelarated not hindered.........on Saturday's evidence (and not Saturday on it's own) it seems to be the latter.
Quote from: full back on July 07, 2009, 03:20:52 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 07, 2009, 03:19:04 PM
The best midfielder in the county isnt being given a chance for various personal/political reasons IMO - Floppy Loughran.
Who ???
I'd presume Philip Loughran.
you're right there mackers.
and about Loughran, Philly Loughran from Clady. I think hes been given the short of short shrifts
Didnt know he was called Floppy ???
Is he playing for Clady this year?
no i dont think so. he wasnt playing when we played them anyway. There were rumours of ultimatums to move club to remain on the county panel etc last year. he hasnt played for a while now but not sure if its related.
Anyones care to shine any light on this?
Loughran hasn't the "heart" for hard county football.
Did he get an All-Ireland medal?
Think he was on the bench in 02.
Not playing ball at the minute on medical advice. Has had serious back trouble.
From the outside looking in...
You still have fine players though like some have pointed out perhaps not so much in the forward department.
That FB, Mallon, Kernan and McKeever are all very good defenders though I would take some people's point about Kernan slowing it up.
Your manager did a few things wrong on saturday
- aidan o'rourke at corner back was a mjor faux pas. leaving him on for a succession of points was woeful management to be honest
- as has been discussed HF line was ridiculous
- Forker is good and should have been on from minute one
- your fitness is not up to scratch
- that midfielder should never have been taken off
Two things he wasn't at fault for
- th stupid indisciplined tackling at times (andy mallon surprisingly very guilty of it)
- the referee not giving clarke any protection wtasoever(maybe you could point taht at mcdonnell too) Had you got all the frees you deserved there the game would have been won in normal time. This would however have only temporarily masked your problems.
Personally I think, as an outsider, armagh should be the second best team in ulster. They're not near `Tyrone or AI standard however I think they have the raw materials to be better than anyone else.
Stevie would be a good CHF and with Mallon in that line and Forker and Clarke in the FF line that would be half decent.
I don't think Stevie is past i yet. However I don't think he's fit as he has a belly and county footballers should not have a belly...
QuoteThat FB, Mallon, Kernan and McKeever are all very good defenders though I would take some people's point about Kernan slowing it up.
People have noted Kernan "slowing it up", but at the game, as distinct from on TV, you could see that there were few runs made to allow him the opportunity for a pass.
I don't think that the team were as fit as they might be. OK AOR is not the youngest, but themany of the team should be in their prime. Back at Easter Cork were running rings around us, but you could say that they were just ahead in the fitness schedule and that in 3 months Armagh would be up to speed, but they weren't really. Can John McCloskey be brought back from Wasps?
Is McCloskey definitely at Wasps?
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 07, 2009, 11:12:50 PM
From the outside looking in...
You still have fine players though like some have pointed out perhaps not so much in the forward department.
That FB, Mallon, Kernan and McKeever are all very good defenders though I would take some people's point about Kernan slowing it up.
Your manager did a few things wrong on saturday
- aidan o'rourke at corner back was a mjor faux pas. leaving him on for a succession of points was woeful management to be honest
- as has been discussed HF line was ridiculous
- Forker is good and should have been on from minute one
- your fitness is not up to scratch
- that midfielder should never have been taken off
Two things he wasn't at fault for
- th stupid indisciplined tackling at times (andy mallon surprisingly very guilty of it)
- the referee not giving clarke any protection wtasoever(maybe you could point taht at mcdonnell too) Had you got all the frees you deserved there the game would have been won in normal time. This would however have only temporarily masked your problems.
Personally I think, as an outsider, armagh should be the second best team in ulster. They're not near `Tyrone or AI standard however I think they have the raw materials to be better than anyone else.
Stevie would be a good CHF and with Mallon in that line and Forker and Clarke in the FF line that would be half decent.
I don't think Stevie is past i yet. However I don't think he's fit as he has a belly and county footballers should not have a belly...
That's the best post i've read on this board in a long time!
Quote from: hectorsheroes on July 08, 2009, 09:36:24 AM
Is McCloskey definitely at Wasps?
Thats the buzz on the street anyway.
From what I hear the O ROurkes were running the show. I have it from a very good source, that aidan o rourke called BOK over at the start of the game & instructed the substitiutuion of lavery, if its true & the guy who told me this is very genuine, its a joke
Quote from: Goats Do Shave on July 08, 2009, 09:45:30 AM
Quote from: imtommygunn on July 07, 2009, 11:12:50 PM
From the outside looking in...
You still have fine players though like some have pointed out perhaps not so much in the forward department.
That FB, Mallon, Kernan and McKeever are all very good defenders though I would take some people's point about Kernan slowing it up.
Your manager did a few things wrong on saturday
- aidan o'rourke at corner back was a mjor faux pas. leaving him on for a succession of points was woeful management to be honest
- as has been discussed HF line was ridiculous
- Forker is good and should have been on from minute one
- your fitness is not up to scratch
- that midfielder should never have been taken off
Two things he wasn't at fault for
- th stupid indisciplined tackling at times (andy mallon surprisingly very guilty of it)
- the referee not giving clarke any protection wtasoever(maybe you could point taht at mcdonnell too) Had you got all the frees you deserved there the game would have been won in normal time. This would however have only temporarily masked your problems.
Personally I think, as an outsider, armagh should be the second best team in ulster. They're not near `Tyrone or AI standard however I think they have the raw materials to be better than anyone else.
Stevie would be a good CHF and with Mallon in that line and Forker and Clarke in the FF line that would be half decent.
I don't think Stevie is past i yet. However I don't think he's fit as he has a belly and county footballers should not have a belly...
That's the best post i've read on this board in a long time!
i concur
Quote from: Sandy Hill on July 07, 2009, 10:22:16 PM
Loughran hasn't the "heart" for hard county football.
bullsh1t. He was excellent in 2003 - in fact he was nominated for an all star!! I actually think he played in the semi 02 in the second half as well. He was our main midfielder alongside McGrane for a good couple of years before injury and dopey Armagh politics shafted him
Quote from: BerfArmagh on July 08, 2009, 09:48:55 AM
From what I hear the O ROurkes were running the show. I have it from a very good source, that aidan o rourke called BOK over at the start of the game & instructed the substitiutuion of lavery, if its true & the guy who told me this is very genuine, its a joke
FFS how do sensible people entertain these things. first it was the kernans actually picking the team and now its the o'rourkes. i wonder why aidan dropped himself for the tyrone game?
Quote from: BerfArmagh on July 08, 2009, 09:48:55 AM
From what I hear the O ROurkes were running the show. I have it from a very good source, that aidan o rourke called BOK over at the start of the game & instructed the substitiutuion of lavery, if its true & the guy who told me this is very genuine, its a joke
Jesus H Christ.
Thats a bit far fetched berf.
Quote from: eireogatron on July 08, 2009, 09:53:48 AM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on July 07, 2009, 10:22:16 PM
Loughran hasn't the "heart" for hard county football.
bullsh1t. He was excellent in 2003 - in fact he was nominated for an all star!! I actually think he played in the semi 02 in the second half as well. He was our main midfielder alongside McGrane for a good couple of years before injury and dopey Armagh politics shafted him
On a point of fact, no he most definitely did not play any part in the 02 semi.
As to "heart" "shafting" or whatever...
He drifts in and out of a game. As a midfielder you just can't do that.You're in the thick of it from start to finish.
Lovely fielder of a ball though.
Quote from: SidelineKick on July 08, 2009, 09:47:06 AM
Quote from: hectorsheroes on July 08, 2009, 09:36:24 AM
Is McCloskey definitely at Wasps?
Thats the buzz on the street anyway.
was an article in irish news not so long ago about this. He is at wasps for a year at least and then will see how it pans out.
QuoteA case of 'Show me the honey'.
He made a beeline for it.
Quote from: hardstation on July 08, 2009, 11:49:06 PM
A case of 'Show me the honey'.
and why not! both parties have been courting each other for a long time. Hopefully works out for him as he had to leave the teaching to go.
Quote from: Armaghtothebone on July 08, 2009, 10:06:12 PM
Quote from: eireogatron on July 08, 2009, 09:53:48 AM
Quote from: Sandy Hill on July 07, 2009, 10:22:16 PM
Loughran hasn't the "heart" for hard county football.
bullsh1t. He was excellent in 2003 - in fact he was nominated for an all star!! I actually think he played in the semi 02 in the second half as well. He was our main midfielder alongside McGrane for a good couple of years before injury and dopey Armagh politics shafted him
On a point of fact, no he most definitely did not play any part in the 02 semi.
As to "heart" "shafting" or whatever...
He drifts in and out of a game. As a midfielder you just can't do that.You're in the thick of it from start to finish.
Lovely fielder of a ball though.
hmmmm, i thought he came on in that game. He definitely came on in the quarter final replay vs Sligo. doesnt really matter. I think he should be there (when fit).
Floppy is a fella, but I think it would take him playing at least a full season in club football injury free to get near the panel.
It's a pity... he had all the natural qualities to be Armagh's main midfielder. Affected by the back injury & the wing mirrors too much though!