What happened at the Tesco store in Antrim last Sunday has set me thinking.
The GAA has announced a policy of promoting inclusiveness for all and that surely includes Councillor Adrian Watson and those of similar outlook.
ASFAIK, the Ulster Council has taken on the task of exploring ways of establishing contact with members of the Unionist community with a view to inviting recruits from that quarter.
Is it an imitative that should be supported and fostered or is it destined to end in inevitable failure?
In the light of what happened in Antrim town, I'd be interested in finding out what board members think of the chances of the Association developing a fresh source of recruits from across the traditional divide.
Is the venture worth the effort that will be involved or should the idea be dismissed out of hand?
Just how should one go about the process of engagement and at whom should the approaches be aimed?
I presume Adrian Watson won't react positively to any such approach; are there many others who probably will spurn the outstretched hand of friendship?
Do committed GAA supporters, especially in the six counties of Ulster, welcome an influx of non-Nationalists?
Indeed, does the average GAA fan welcome the possible arrival of non-nationals of any sort and what would the GAA need to change to make the Association attractive to others to get them to come on board.
Very few, possibly only the inimitable EG, have brought up the subject on the board but I'm sure many more have opinions on the subject.
I'd love to hear from as many as possible, including of course members of the 'cavalry.'
Last but by no means least:
The following is an excerpt from The GAA Strategic Vision and Action Plan 2009-2015:
• We welcome everybody to be part of our Association
• We are anti sectarian
• We are anti racist
Does the above aptly describe us?
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 29, 2009, 11:18:53 PM
What happened at the Tesco store in Antrim last Sunday has set me thinking.
The GAA has announced a policy of promoting inclusiveness for all and that surely includes Councillor Adrian Watson and those of similar outlook.
ASFAIK, the Ulster Council has taken on the task of exploring ways of establishing contact with members of the Unionist community with a view to inviting recruits from that quarter.
Is it an imitative that should be supported and fostered or is it destined to end in inevitable failure?
In the light of what happened in Antrim town, I'd be interested in finding out what board members think of the chances of the Association developing a fresh source of recruits from across the traditional divide.
Is the venture worth the effort that will be involved or should the idea be dismissed out of hand?
Just how should one go about the process of engagement and at whom should the approaches be aimed?
I presume Adrian Watson won't react positively to any such approach; are there many others who probably will spurn the outstretched hand of friendship?
Do committed GAA supporters, especially in the six counties of Ulster, welcome an influx of non-Nationalists?
Indeed, does the average GAA fan welcome the possible arrival of non-nationals of any sort and what would the GAA need to change to make the Association attractive to others to get them to come on board.
Very few, possibly only the inimitable EG, have brought up the subject on the board but I'm sure many more have opinions on the subject.
I'd love to hear from as many as possible, including of course members of the 'cavalry.'
Last but by no means least:
The following is an excerpt from The GAA Strategic Vision and Action Plan 2009-2015:
• We welcome everybody to be part of our Association
• We are anti sectarian
• We are anti racist
Does the above aptly describe us?
Lar I haven't got time to go into this in detail at the minute, the baby wants fed - so just to be very brief I would like to think that excerpt describes the GAA, if I thought it didn't I wouldn't be a life-long supporter. On the subject of unionism, there is an ever growing number of Protestants in the north, who would have voted for unionist parties traditionally, getting involved actively in the GAA. I will get back to you tomorrow on this.
I think it aptly describes the ethos, one which is striven for across the board.
Like any walks of life, we probably have our share of Adrian Watsonesque arseholes who are happy to mouth off and not encourage change among their clubs.
I think that on the unionist side, there are many who just do not want to be involved, no matter what changes are made. Anyone with a mindset to complain against a series of 12 year old children to my mind could never really want to be involved in the GAA and to be honest, I wouldnt want them (based soley on the fact that anyone who makes a complaint like this understands little about giving and taking, about the needs of children, about community and would bring nothing to the association except negative input - who needs that right?)
I played gaelic with 3 kids from protestant backgrounds growing up - they and their families were welcome, and they knew it.
The people who complain dont want to be involved. They use the isolated incidents and the naming of gaa clubs as a stick to beat their own drum of agenda. That is my firm belief and Im not sure how it could be changed.
Yep, welcome everyone in, regardless of creed or colour. And the GAA should continue to be pro-active in doing so. Having said that, some people will never want to join, and i wouldn't waste my time trying to convince them.
People won't join an organisation who's stated aims and practices are so far removed from their own.
As a Unionist (albeit as lenient as they come) in the 6 counties (hey, I'm being nice ;D), must say that GAA is something I would watch when it's on the tv (although with a limited understanding, but I pick bits an pieces up every so often), but it's not something I feel I could get involved in.
I guess it's because I recon I would be looked down upon or something.
Quote from: Ari on April 30, 2009, 12:38:52 AM
As a Unionist (albeit as lenient as they come) in the 6 counties (hey, I'm being nice ;D), must say that GAA is something I would watch when it's on the tv (although with a limited understanding, but I pick bits an pieces up every so often), but it's not something I feel I could get involved in.
I guess it's because I recon I would be looked down upon or something.
That perception might appear to be slightly paranoid from our side of the fence but it could be the hardest problem to get rid of. In that regard involving as many immigrants as possible might help dilute the problem. It was interesting to see a black player involved in Island games in the excellent Pride of the Parish documentary.
The GAA welcomes everyone, after all a DUP election candidate had played for a team in Dungannon for several years! But it is important to keep saying it. Be sure to send information on clubs to all schools and not just Catholic ones, invite all councillors where you invite some, don't let Sinn Fein take over clubs as an extension of their cumann... There is a tendency in the GAA for families to be involved in the GAA for generations and having put in the work over the years there can be a feeling that outsiders aren't needed, no just unionists but anyone. The GAA needs to overcome this.
I would not turn anyone away but be the same token i wouldnt be actively chasing members from the other side of the house. Though i suppose there are various grants for "cross community work" so it is attractive to some and the Ulster Gaa development officers need kept in a job.
keep the politicians and clergy away te feck out of sporting committees, they will drain the energy of the amateur committees people running them and they have enough problems of their own to sort out.
I'm with minder in regards to chasing members from the other side of the house. There is a massive problem with parents from the traditional areas who see it as a baby sitting service and I can only imagine that a higher percentage would see it as such from d'udder side.
If however we can find better ways to involve every parent who gets their child involved to play a role within it (and that they knew they had to play a part beforehand), then I'd have zero problem with it.
Agree about politicians.......as far away as possible
Having been involved with the GAA in the U.K. and here in Oz, I KNOW there are players with absolutely no Irish heritage in them, eg. the captain of the Lancs All-Britain U-21 Championship winning team, 1988 (part Chinese, part Afro-Carribean, part English).
The Antrim incident is yet again demonstrative of the cornered rat mentality that makes its ugly presence felt when Irish culture seeks nothing more than parity in the six north-east counties of the nation. Some on the board lambast me for (and I paraphrase) "holding on to memories of the past"; well, whaddya know? Perhaps those "memories" are still realities.
Quote from: Aerlik on April 30, 2009, 09:12:22 AM
The Antrim incident is yet again demonstrative of the cornered rat mentality that makes its ugly presence felt when Irish culture seeks nothing more than parity in the six north-east counties of the nation.
You have hit the nail on the head here aerlik
The GAA doesn't need to change anything in my view. I don't understand what could be offensive about it only the fact that it is played by the nationalist community and is very successful. The people who are against it are the people who are jealous of its success and how well it is run and just use any excuse to run it down.
I believe Adrian Watson said he complained on behalf of his constituents and did not feel offense himself. But we've had this discussion many many times over the last few years I've been on this board.
We know that a significant number of Unionists:
1. don't like the naming of clubs, trophies and competitions etc,
2. don't like the playing of Amhráin ná bhFiann in the North
3. and in some cases even argue about the fact that most clubs are representing Roman Catholic parishes.
and these things haven't changed and probably never will by the looks of things, so there will always be those that can never be reached. But I still think we should make every effort to include those who will be open to joining in, there will be those who may be in other communities who may be willing but don't know how and just need a bit of encouragement. We should be screaming it from the roof tops that all our welcome. Expecting it to happen passively will amount to little. If one family join in, then maybe their neighbors might also and so on and so forth.
The same should be done and I believe in some cases is being done in regards the Eastern European, African and Asian communities. But still feel that more could be done on this issue. Especially in urban areas where immigrant communities can easily get isolated. Multi-lingual websites and adverts should be used. British American Football Association (BAFA) launched a website http://www.getintoamericanfootball.com/ which is very impressive and that game has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years especially with Sky Sports showing live coverage. I think a similar approach would be really work in these cases*.
*I dont mean sell out to Sky Sports in that last sentence.
As successful as the GAA is, there are people in towns throughout Ireland who would have nothing to do with the GAA and they don't have to be loyalist or protestants to take this stance. Things like their son being run off the fileld for playing with a soccer ball and the residue from old rules from old times still linger. However, I now consider the GAA to be an all inclusive association to the extent that they are promoting this aspect more now than before. For me, I would kick ball with a loyalist or proddie any day and have a pint with him after a game. There was a time when I would not, definitely would not, like back in the mid sixties, early seventies but while I am too old for the game now I can feel a change about the place that is most welcome. That's my take on it anyway.
In fairness, Watson may not have been "public representative" in this case and he may have been hard done by with some of this coverage. So he might not bite off the hand of friendship, although others in Antrim would.
http://www.uup.org/newsrooms/latest-news/general/complaint-clarification.php
Ulster Unionist Councillor for South Antrim Adrian Watson has clarified the position of the Ulster Unionist Party following inaccurate comments which appeared on the BBC website which allegedly came from him.
"A story on the BBC website reports that I complained to Tesco following a charity bag pack were children from a local school came along wearing GAA shirts. This is inaccurate. I and the Ulster Unionist Party have no objection whatsoever to Tesco encouraging voluntary, sporting and charitable groups to raise money in their stores.
"It is regrettable that the issue of children collecting money at their local supermarket has received this much negative media attention. The society we are building for the people of Northern Ireland must include a commitment to civil and religious liberty for all.
"I would hope that this does not impact on the ability of other groups to use this scheme to raise money for good causes. I fully recognise that Tesco are well within their right to do provide this service, allowing school groups, clubs and charities the opportunity to raise vital and much needed funds."
"Since the story broke today I have been in touch with the GAA club in question and stressed that I was not involved in the complaint."
Quote from: armaghniac on April 30, 2009, 11:30:57 AM
In fairness, Watson may not have been "public representative" in this case and he may have been hard done by with some of this coverage. So he might not bite off the hand of friendship, although others in Antrim would.
http://www.uup.org/newsrooms/latest-news/general/complaint-clarification.php
Ulster Unionist Councillor for South Antrim Adrian Watson has clarified the position of the Ulster Unionist Party following inaccurate comments which appeared on the BBC website which allegedly came from him.
"A story on the BBC website reports that I complained to Tesco following a charity bag pack were children from a local school came along wearing GAA shirts. This is inaccurate. I and the Ulster Unionist Party have no objection whatsoever to Tesco encouraging voluntary, sporting and charitable groups to raise money in their stores.
"It is regrettable that the issue of children collecting money at their local supermarket has received this much negative media attention. The society we are building for the people of Northern Ireland must include a commitment to civil and religious liberty for all.
"I would hope that this does not impact on the ability of other groups to use this scheme to raise money for good causes. I fully recognise that Tesco are well within their right to do provide this service, allowing school groups, clubs and charities the opportunity to raise vital and much needed funds."
"Since the story broke today I have been in touch with the GAA club in question and stressed that I was not involved in the complaint."
Fair dues to him for clarifying that.
Quote from: Ari on April 30, 2009, 12:38:52 AM
As a Unionist (albeit as lenient as they come) in the 6 counties (hey, I'm being nice ;D), must say that GAA is something I would watch when it's on the tv (although with a limited understanding, but I pick bits an pieces up every so often), but it's not something I feel I could get involved in.
I guess it's because I recon I would be looked down upon or something.
Welcome onboard the site, Ari. (There's a terrible pun there, I know.)
Most GAA followers regard themselves as being non-sectarian and non-racist and if they don't go out of their way seeking 'outsiders' to join their ranks, they will not make them feel unwelcome or unwanted.
There is really a two way learning process needed here:
People such yourself might expect to be looked down upon or isolated and distrusted if you turn up at a GAA match or enter a clubhouse for a pint.
Whereas many well-meaning GAA followers may suspect that visitors from the Unionist community might drop by in order to find fault and would have no real intentions of getting involved in any way.
I try to stay away from generalisations but I think it is fair to say that most Nationalists, and GAA followers by extension, distrust advances from the Unionist community, especially from politicians.
The collective experience seems to be that any initiative or proposal will be given a welcome to begin with. Then seemingly minor problems will arise and when they are attended to, everything will appear to be grand again until something else calls for attention. This process will be repeated until whatever is in question is well and truly dead and buried.
In plain English, many Nationalists distrust the sincerity of Unionist politicians. This is especially true when they appear to be conciliatory or open-minded to any degree!
This could very well be the reason why several posters to date have said that politicians should be kept out of any negotiations on this matter.
Is there a GAA club any where, even in the 6 counties, without at least minimal protestant/unionist involvement? I know my own club Portadown has such involvement and has had for years, now surely if it is happening in Portadown of all places its happening everywhere?
QuoteI try to stay away from generalisations but I think it is fair to say that most Nationalists, and GAA followers by extension, distrust advances from the Unionist community, especially from politicians.
People may be suspicious of advances from politicians. But I disagree that nationalists are suspicious of individuals or community advances. There is a lot of comment about communities along peace lines etc where it is much easier to have a meeting on the Green side of the line.
As for the GAA if people come along they are presumed to be interested and therefore welcome. And even if there is a risk that some people come along to find fault, the welcome and what they actually find might well change many people's views.
Quote from: thejuice on April 30, 2009, 10:27:56 AM
I believe Adrian Watson said he complained on behalf of his constituents and did not feel offense himself. But we've had this discussion many many times over the last few years I've been on this board.
We know that a significant number of Unionists:
1. don't like the naming of clubs, trophies and competitions etc,
2. don't like the playing of Amhráin ná bhFiann in the North
3. and in some cases even argue about the fact that most clubs are representing Roman Catholic parishes.
and these things haven't changed and probably never will by the looks of things, so there will always be those that can never be reached. But I still think we should make every effort to include those who will be open to joining in, there will be those who may be in other communities who may be willing but don't know how and just need a bit of encouragement. We should be screaming it from the roof tops that all our welcome. Expecting it to happen passively will amount to little. If one family join in, then maybe their neighbors might also and so on and so forth.
The same should be done and I believe in some cases is being done in regards the Eastern European, African and Asian communities. But still feel that more could be done on this issue. Especially in urban areas where immigrant communities can easily get isolated. Multi-lingual websites and adverts should be used. British American Football Association (BAFA) launched a website http://www.getintoamericanfootball.com/ which is very impressive and that game has come on leaps and bounds in the last few years especially with Sky Sports showing live coverage. I think a similar approach would be really work in these cases*.
*I dont mean sell out to Sky Sports in that last sentence.
Points 1 and 2 are the sticking point for the majority of Unionists who don't want anything to do with the GAA. To be honest, these peoples opinions will never change and they'll never be won over.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on April 30, 2009, 11:43:26 AM
Quote from: Ari on April 30, 2009, 12:38:52 AM
As a Unionist (albeit as lenient as they come) in the 6 counties (hey, I'm being nice ;D), must say that GAA is something I would watch when it's on the tv (although with a limited understanding, but I pick bits an pieces up every so often), but it's not something I feel I could get involved in.
I guess it's because I recon I would be looked down upon or something.
Welcome onboard the site, Ari. (There's a terrible pun there, I know.)
Most GAA followers regard themselves as being non-sectarian and non-racist and if they don't go out of their way seeking 'outsiders' to join their ranks, they will not make them feel unwelcome or unwanted.
There is really a two way learning process needed here:
People such yourself might expect to be looked down upon or isolated and distrusted if you turn up at a GAA match or enter a clubhouse for a pint.
Whereas many well-meaning GAA followers may suspect that visitors from the Unionist community might drop by in order to find fault and would have no real intentions of getting involved in any way.
I try to stay away from generalisations but I think it is fair to say that most Nationalists, and GAA followers by extension, distrust advances from the Unionist community, especially from politicians.
The collective experience seems to be that any initiative or proposal will be given a welcome to begin with. Then seemingly minor problems will arise and when they are attended to, everything will appear to be grand again until something else calls for attention. This process will be repeated until whatever is in question is well and truly dead and buried.
In plain English, many Nationalists distrust the sincerity of Unionist politicians. This is especially true when they appear to be conciliatory or open-minded to any degree!
This could very well be the reason why several posters to date have said that politicians should be kept out of any negotiations on this matter.
Thanks!
Wouldn't worry, I don't exactly trust politicians either. Up here they're a bunch of eejits for the most part. :D
Quote from: T Fearon on April 30, 2009, 11:58:34 AM
Is there a GAA club any where, even in the 6 counties, without at least minimal protestant/unionist involvement? I know my own club Portadown has such involvement and has had for years, now surely if it is happening in Portadown of all places its happening everywhere?
There is GAA in Portadown?
I'm originally from Lurgan, I don't think there'd be much protestant/unionist involvement in the clubs there.
Quote from: Ari on April 30, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 30, 2009, 11:58:34 AM
Is there a GAA club any where, even in the 6 counties, without at least minimal protestant/unionist involvement? I know my own club Portadown has such involvement and has had for years, now surely if it is happening in Portadown of all places its happening everywhere?
There is GAA in Portadown?
I'm originally from Lurgan, I don't think there'd be much protestant/unionist involvement in the clubs there.
Ari that would be a fair enough assumption alright. Can't speak for the other clubs in Lurgan but I know we have been involved with Lurgan Rugby Club at underage in the 2/3 years; but seemingly thats as far as it went.
Quote from: fitzroyalty on April 30, 2009, 12:44:59 PM
Quote from: Ari on April 30, 2009, 12:35:26 PM
Quote from: T Fearon on April 30, 2009, 11:58:34 AM
Is there a GAA club any where, even in the 6 counties, without at least minimal protestant/unionist involvement? I know my own club Portadown has such involvement and has had for years, now surely if it is happening in Portadown of all places its happening everywhere?
There is GAA in Portadown?
I'm originally from Lurgan, I don't think there'd be much protestant/unionist involvement in the clubs there.
Ari that would be a fair enough assumption alright. Can't speak for the other clubs in Lurgan but I know we have been involved with Lurgan Rugby Club at underage in the 2/3 years; but seemingly thats as far as it went.
Yea, and I can't see that changing any time soon. Recent events will certainly not have helped. :(
Lar, just as others have said, there are plenty of unionists who are involved in the GAA. Political unionism most definitely doesn't represent 100% of unionists in its attitude to the GAA. I know quite a lot of Protestants personally who are heavily involved in their local clubs, what's more is their in-depth knowledge of the game, tactics, etc would put some so-called Gaels to shame.
Quote from: armaghniac on April 30, 2009, 01:10:36 AM
The GAA welcomes everyone, after all a DUP election candidate had played for a team in Dungannon for several years! But it is important to keep saying it. Be sure to send information on clubs to all schools and not just Catholic ones, invite all councillors where you invite some, don't let Sinn Fein take over clubs as an extension of their cumann... There is a tendency in the GAA for families to be involved in the GAA for generations and having put in the work over the years there can be a feeling that outsiders aren't needed, no just unionists but anyone. The GAA needs to overcome this.
What he said.
Quote from: ardmhachaabu on April 30, 2009, 08:49:00 PM
Lar, just as others have said, there are plenty of unionists who are involved in the GAA. Political unionism most definitely doesn't represent 100% of unionists in its attitude to the GAA. I know quite a lot of Protestants personally who are heavily involved in their local clubs, what's more is their in-depth knowledge of the game, tactics, etc would put some so-called Gaels to shame.
I'm not having that. Prods know more about the game than good honest to goodess fenians Gaels? Did your parents not teach you you were better than them at everything? ;)
What type of unpolarized world do you live in ;)
I'm from a small club. I manage one of the underage teams. We have 3 protestants starting most weeks. Without those 3 we wouldn't be competitive. In order to survive, our club (and every bigot in it) now realises that we must encourage all children of every race and creed. As well as making our team stronger, their presence has thought their team-mates tolerance etc...
One of them had to listen to a good bit of abuse last year in a game, so he borrowed one of his team-mates Celtic jersies to wear out past the opposition afterwards just to confuse them!!
It's great to hear that there are plenty of cases of Protestants getting involved with their local GAA clubs without waiting for the launch of any official initiative.
I wonder how long this co-operation has been going on.
I presume that all young Prods who play are still at underage level as there has been little or no mention of the fact anywhere in the media.
I did hear of a group of youngsters, chosen from a number of schools in the Belfast region, who went to the States on a goodwill trip last year or the previous one.
The kids were drawn from schools across the religious divide and ASAIK, they played a number of exhibition hurling games.
School initiatives like this tend to be more show than substance and it's at club level that real progress is needed.
I am curious as to the form the official approaches will take. I'm assuming that GAA officials have a strategy worked out but I've heard little or nothing about this.
Does anyone know what is happening
If only we had a few more paid officials to do such things
.....that was sarcasm btw
As I see it, the GAA may retain its (historic) Nationalist political ethos; or, it may hope to appeal to Unionists in NI. It cannot do both simultaneously.
Your organisation, your choice.
P.S. Can the title of this thread be changed, so as not to specify Counciilor Watson? He has made it clear that not only was he was not the person who originally complained to Tesco, but in fact he has approached both Tesco and the local GAA to try to resolve the problem. As he said himself, he has "no problem" with the GAA club in question.
EG
Do you think the people who vehemently protested against children with a small inoffensive insignia on their shirts packing bags are the kind of people who want to join the GAA but are reluctant due to old naming issues?
Parents from unionist backgrounds do have children involved in the GAA as they see it for what it is:- a sporting outlet for kids. The people I think that you are refering to are so far left that they will never want anything to do with the association. Frankly I've already said that if the association needs to change to encourage the sectarian bigots who complained about those kids, then I don't want them. What could those people bring to any club or association which would positively impact their communities with attitudes like that. They are poison, and the fact remains that individuals choose sectarianism.
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
As I see it, the GAA may retain its (historic) Nationalist political ethos; or, it may hope to appeal to Unionists in NI. It cannot do both simultaneously.
It would be interesting to see just how many people from the protestant community would decide to play GAA if the GAA assented to measures that this so called 'ethos' be put to bed.
One would suspect that it would garner little more support than it is already receiving. I would like to see just how many borderline cases will play for a GAA club the day Kevin Lynches drop their name, etc. I think the majority would jump to the next 'barrier', rather than get involved.
I can tell you that in the past few years in Coleraine there is a small but marked increase in the number of fellas from either 'side' who will train with both the rugby and gaelic football. I am happy to see this progression. I think it is fair to say that more Protestants are getting involved year after year.
There is no need for any sweeping changes, you either want to play sport or you dont. Those who are looking for political barriers by and large want to find them anyway, they are a lost cause.
Perhaps while we are all caught up in this latest drama with the school kids in Tesco's its good to read about people doing things in a positive manner for community relations,
Im sure some of you have come across this before but anyway.
http://borderireland.info/discuss/?p=132
http://borderireland.info/discuss/?p=85
http://borderireland.info/discuss/?p=116
Quote from: Puckoon on May 01, 2009, 04:43:19 PM
EG
Do you think the people who vehemently protested against children with a small inoffensive insignia on their shirts packing bags are the kind of people who want to join the GAA but are reluctant due to old naming issues?
No, my guess is that they are nasty, small-minded bigots. Controversy over naming issues etc only serve to give fuel to their prejudice, I'd say.
Quote from: Puckoon on May 01, 2009, 04:43:19 PM
Parents from unionist backgrounds do have children involved in the GAA as they see it for what it is:- a sporting outlet for kids.
No doubt. However, such people are so few in numbers as to be unrepresentative of even moderate Unionists, never mind the lunatic fringe.
Quote from: Puckoon on May 01, 2009, 04:43:19 PM
The people I think that you are refering to are so far left that they will never want anything to do with the association.
Indeed.
Quote from: Puckoon on May 01, 2009, 04:43:19 PM
Frankly I've already said that if the association needs to change to encourage the sectarian bigots who complained about those kids, then I don't want them. What could those people bring to any club or association which would positively impact their communities with attitudes like that. They are poison, and the fact remains that individuals choose sectarianism.
I don't imagine any reasonable person expects the GAA to change in order to "satisfy" out-and-out bigots etc; I certainly do not.
Rather, what I am arguing that whilst the GAA retains even a moderate Nationalist political ethos, then it is unlikely to appeal to any significant number of (moderate) Unionists - and that's before we even get to "the naming issue" etc.
But as I've said many times before, if the GAA is determined on mixing sport and politics, then it may do so.
Just as I and others like me may draw our own conclusions accordingly.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
As I see it, the GAA may retain its (historic) Nationalist political ethos; or, it may hope to appeal to Unionists in NI. It cannot do both simultaneously.
It would be interesting to see just how many people from the protestant community would decide to play GAA if the GAA assented to measures that this so called 'ethos' be put to bed.
One would suspect that it would garner little more support than it is already receiving.
It may not be many, at least initially, for reasons both "good" and "bad". (And by "good" I mean eg lack of contact or outlet for those living in areas with no local GAC, or in a soccer or rugby stronghold etc. By "bad" I mean eg mistrust and a reluctance to let old prejudices go etc)
But I have always believed "a good deed is its own reward". Or as GK Chesterton used to say: "If a thing is worth doing, it's worth doing badly!" :D
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
I would like to see just how many borderline cases will play for a GAA club the day Kevin Lynches drop their name, etc. I think the majority would jump to the next 'barrier', rather than get involved.
It's hard to tell how many Unionists might change their attitudes should eg the likes of Kevin Lynch rename etc. but I would be fairly certain of one thing: so long as Kevin Lynch's do
not rename, there's not a Unionist in the Dungiven area who'll have anything to do with them. As would I, if I ever had the fortune/misfortune to live anywhere near there, either. Similarly, if my local soccer club were renamed after eg Billy Wright or Michael Stone, I'd be insisting the IFA threw them out forthwith.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
I can tell you that in the past few years in Coleraine there is a small but marked increase in the number of fellas from either 'side' who will train with both the rugby and gaelic football. I am happy to see this progression. I think it is fair to say that more Protestants are getting involved year after year.
Fine. if you and the rest of the GAA are happy with the numbers you attract from the Unionist* community, then carry on. However, if you are not happy, then perhaps you might be better advised to listen to Unionists' reasons why they are reluctant to get involved, rather than telling us what it is we think?
* - I have substituted "Unionist" for your use of "Protestant", since I think it harmful to the debate to traduce it with sectarian terms - though perhaps your introduction of such terminology subconsciously betrays an element of your own feelings on such matters?
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
There is no need for any sweeping changes, you either want to play sport or you dont. Those who are looking for political barriers by and large want to find them anyway, they are a lost cause.
Fine. As I said earlier: "Your organisation, your choice".
the gaa can not change the past, only change the future.
extend the arm of friendship to the unionist community, some will stick 2 fingers up, others will shake hands and embrace.
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
As I see it, the GAA may retain its (historic) Nationalist political ethos; or, it may hope to appeal to Unionists in NI. It cannot do both simultaneously.
It would be interesting to see just how many people from the protestant community would decide to play GAA if the GAA assented to measures that this so called 'ethos' be put to bed.
One would suspect that it would garner little more support than it is already receiving. I would like to see just how many borderline cases will play for a GAA club the day Kevin Lynches drop their name, etc. I think the majority would jump to the next 'barrier', rather than get involved.
I can tell you that in the past few years in Coleraine there is a small but marked increase in the number of fellas from either 'side' who will train with both the rugby and gaelic football. I am happy to see this progression. I think it is fair to say that more Protestants are getting involved year after year.
There is no need for any sweeping changes, you either want to play sport or you dont. Those who are looking for political barriers by and large want to find them anyway, they are a lost cause.
Spot on.
EG, a GK chesterton quote does little to persuade me that 'unionists' will embrace the GAA in any significant number regardless of changes made. I dont think theres a 'unionist' in the Dungiven area who would play GAA for them if the club was named after the Queen, a name change would really do little.
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 06:07:14 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
I can tell you that in the past few years in Coleraine there is a small but marked increase in the number of fellas from either 'side' who will train with both the rugby and gaelic football. I am happy to see this progression. I think it is fair to say that more Protestants are getting involved year after year.
Fine. if you and the rest of the GAA are happy with the numbers you attract from the Unionist* community, then carry on. However, if you are not happy, then perhaps you might be better advised to listen to Unionists' reasons why they are reluctant to get involved, rather than telling us what it is we think?
* - I have substituted "Unionist" for your use of "Protestant", since I think it harmful to the debate to traduce it with sectarian terms - though perhaps your introduction of such terminology subconsciously betrays an element of your own feelings on such matters?
I think I might explain this one. I used the word 'Protestant' as the individuals involved (friends of mine) arent particularly politically motivated. A bit like myself and, oh, 95% of the GAA and rugby players in Coleraine (I use that figure as I cant be sure, but I am familiar with the players and have yet to encounter politics). Though they do come from 'unionist communities'. Maybe I should have used this more satisfactory terminology for your benefit. I suppose the point of this is that the majority of young people dont really have
strong political ideals in most parts of this country. Or at least in my part of the world anyway. i.e. their unionism doesnt manifest itself in their feelings towards a sporting organisation with a few objectionable names in places they have never been to, or will likely encounter. This might boggle the mind but fitness and camaraderie are held above politics!!
Changing names will have a very marginal impact on 'numbers'. It will only matter to 'unionists' who subsequently wouldn't play anyway, by and large. Do you have any disagreement on this specific point?
P.S. (as I notice you like to leave these a lot)
I find it interesting that you feel the need to suggest, however subtly, that I may have some form of a sectarian mindset:
"though perhaps your introduction of such terminology subconsciously betrays an element of your own feelings on such matters?". I also enjoy the way you have perceived this, yet I may not have been able to grasp this myself, it being so subconscious and all. Perhaps your introduction of such terminology betrays an element of your own arrogance?
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 07:00:51 PM
EG, a GK chesterton quote does little to persuade me that 'unionists' will embrace the GAA in any significant number regardless of changes made. I dont think theres a 'unionist' in the Dungiven area who would play GAA for them if the club was named after the Queen, a name change would really do little.
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 06:07:14 PM
Quote from: whiskeysteve on May 01, 2009, 05:01:48 PM
I can tell you that in the past few years in Coleraine there is a small but marked increase in the number of fellas from either 'side' who will train with both the rugby and gaelic football. I am happy to see this progression. I think it is fair to say that more Protestants are getting involved year after year.
Fine. if you and the rest of the GAA are happy with the numbers you attract from the Unionist* community, then carry on. However, if you are not happy, then perhaps you might be better advised to listen to Unionists' reasons why they are reluctant to get involved, rather than telling us what it is we think?
* - I have substituted "Unionist" for your use of "Protestant", since I think it harmful to the debate to traduce it with sectarian terms - though perhaps your introduction of such terminology subconsciously betrays an element of your own feelings on such matters?
I think I might explain this one. I used the word 'Protestant' as the individuals involved (friends of mine) arent particularly politically motivated. A bit like myself and, oh, 95% of the GAA and rugby players in Coleraine (I use that figure as I cant be sure, but I am familiar with the players and have yet to encounter politics). Though they do come from 'unionist communities'. Maybe I should have used this more satisfactory terminology for your benefit. I suppose the point of this is that the majority of young people dont really have strong political ideals in most parts of this country. Or at least in my part of the world anyway. i.e. their unionism doesnt manifest itself in their feelings towards a sporting organisation with a few objectionable names in places they have never been to, or will likely encounter. This might boggle the mind but fitness and camaraderie are held above politics!!
Changing names will have a very marginal impact on 'numbers'. It will only matter to 'unionists' who subsequently wouldn't play anyway, by and large. Do you have any disagreement on this specific point?
P.S. (as I notice you like to leave these a lot)
I find it interesting that you feel the need to suggest, however subtly, that I may have some form of a sectarian mindset: "though perhaps your introduction of such terminology subconsciously betrays an element of your own feelings on such matters?". I also enjoy the way you have perceived this, yet I may not have been able to grasp this myself, it being so subconscious and all. Perhaps your introduction of such terminology betrays an element of your own arrogance?
I worry that what it betrays is an inbuilt suspicion of anyone from "this" side, who claims not to be politically charged, as many from "the other" side couldnt fathom not being.
I wish I had better words.
Quote from: Aerlik on April 30, 2009, 09:12:22 AM
Having been involved with the GAA in the U.K. and here in Oz, I KNOW there are players with absolutely no Irish heritage in them, eg. the captain of the Lancs All-Britain U-21 Championship winning team, 1988 (part Chinese, part Afro-Carribean, part English).
The Antrim incident is yet again demonstrative of the cornered rat mentality that makes its ugly presence felt when Irish culture seeks nothing more than parity in the six north-east counties of the nation. Some on the board lambast me for (and I paraphrase) "holding on to memories of the past"; well, whaddya know? Perhaps those "memories" are still realities.
Well, we know how unreliable your "memories [sic] of the past" can be don't we now? ::)
A lot of clubs are doing things for the Lá na gClub. Games between townlands, housing estates and the like. This can be a good opportunity to get the "new" estate involved, or maybe to get people from the end of the parish where the GAA is not the major sport.
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
As I see it, the GAA may retain its (historic) Nationalist political ethos; or, it may hope to appeal to Unionists in NI. It cannot do both simultaneously.
Your organisation, your choice.
P.S. Can the title of this thread be changed, so as not to specify Counciilor Watson? He has made it clear that not only was he was not the person who originally complained to Tesco, but in fact he has approached both Tesco and the local GAA to try to resolve the problem. As he said himself, he has "no problem" with the GAA club in question.
I have no problem whatever in changing the topic header.
At the time of posting, it was widely reported that Councillor Watson had been to the forefront of those objecting to the kids wearing of GAA jerseys at the store.
I posted the topic late on Wednesday night; more than three full days after the incident and in the interim there had been no statement of any sort from Mr Watson. I went with the general flow and assumed he had been one of the objectors. (In fact, it appears that his rebuttal of the charges against him was issued on Wednesday afternoon but I did not hear of this until the following morning.)
It seems he was merely passing on complaints on behalf of his constituents and as EG reports, he has no problem with the club himself.
I'm afraid I haven't succeeded in re-wording the topic header to my own satisfaction but I hope it suffices to adequately describe the subject matter in question.
The number of characters that can be fitted into the Subject field is one constraint and the fact that I'm rushing things so I can make it to my local for a couple of pints before closing time is another.
;D
Re Adrian Watson's role in the affair, when his constituents rang him up to complain, did he not have the option of saying "I hear what you say Mr(s) SadBigot but wise up you braindead w**ker" ???
Quote from: A Quinn Martin Production on May 02, 2009, 10:51:21 AM
Re Adrian Watson's role in the affair, when his constituents rang him up to complain, did he not have the option of saying "I hear what you say Mr(s) SadBigot but wise up you braindead w**ker" ???
It was intresting how Councillor Watsons " support" for St Comghalls did not appear until he had been on talkback and got his ass handed to him on a plate by Dunsieth. He quite happily phoned Tesco of his own free will to complain " on his constituents behalf" about the collection. If someone phoned him to complain about an OO parade through Antrim would he pass that complaint onto the Grand Lodge of Ireland? I think not.
Quote from: Evil Genius on May 01, 2009, 04:05:53 PM
As I see it, the GAA may retain its (historic) Nationalist political ethos; or, it may hope to appeal to Unionists in NI. It cannot do both simultaneously.
Your organisation, your choice.
P.S. Can the title of this thread be changed, so as not to specify Counciilor Watson? He has made it clear that not only was he was not the person who originally complained to Tesco, but in fact he has approached both Tesco and the local GAA to try to resolve the problem. As he said himself, he has "no problem" with the GAA club in question.
Many Unionists still don't like the Irish language - despite the fact that it is one of the oldest languages in the world, predating any political differences on this island. Unionists talk about the nationalist ethos of this and that; the fact is for a large swathe of them, there is a very distinct hatred of Irish culture, unless they can manipulate its mythology to reinforce its own prejudices (ie Red Hand of Ulster stripped of its
Gaelic origins and becoming a Loyalist symbol). If they had respect for it, they'd treasure the Irish language - most of them do afterall live in towns and villages that derive their names from old Irish words. But they are more comfortable labelling it as Fenian language, it should not be supported unless Ulster Scots gets equal funding, etc.
The type of people that caused the problem in Antrim are prejudiced. They start with prejudice and the look to things like naming of teams to justify their position. I could boycott Craigavon shopping centre on the basis that it is named after an unpleasant leader from the opposite political persuasion. People will say that this is not the same, but it is exactly the same. Craig was a fellow traveller of the UVF, someone who was instrumental in establishing the likes of the B Specials, a group who killed many innocent people when he was charge. You might say that the leader of a faction is not responsible in the way that the foot soldiers are, but the bigots would not apply this to nationalist leaders nor people generally to the likes of Hitler. In any case Craig fought in the Boer war, an unpleasant imperial adventure that featured the introduction of of concentration camps.
The point is that even extreme nationalists don't go on about Craigavon all of the time.